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The Business Case for DEIB · Humanity Working

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's where human resources can come in and they can say, hey, we're having trouble hiring new talent because our workplace doesn't look inviting, because current employees aren't bragging about where they're working to try to get their peers to apply and to work here.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: People aren't wanting to stick around and stay employed at the organization for very long.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: And this also impacts promotability and employee engagement, which all have bottom line business impacts.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: In today's episode, Paul chats with Sarah Scala about DEIB, which is a topic we've been recently asked to cover.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: Sarah Scala provides executive coaching, DEIB facilitation, organization development, learning strategy, LGBTQ leadership coaching, leadership development, and change management consulting, with the goal of increasing client revenue, reducing turnover, and creating business value in organizations.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: In this discussion, Paul and Sarah get into how DEIB initiatives translate into improved business results, how the field has transformed over the years, the impact of recent rulings in the Supreme Court, and how the influx of new employees is changing matters.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've included some important links from Sarah in the show notes, so make sure you check those out.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is brought to you by Billion Minds.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: Billion Minds helps companies be ready for the future of work by developing adaptable, resilient employees.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_00: You can learn more about them on LinkedIn or by visiting billionminds.com.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And if you like this episode, please like and review us on your podcast app of choice.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: All right, let's get started.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome to the pod, Sarah.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, Paul.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's wonderful to be here.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: We have uh, Sarah, some uh listeners, I would say, in companies uh that listen to this podcast who, where the companies themselves are in all stages of maturity.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So some of them might be LECH startups, some of them are much larger companies that have been around for years.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously that translates to uh, in many cases, to greater or lesser familiarity with DEIB as a field.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_01: Or for some, it's completely old hat.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: They know about it, they've known about it for years, they've been on this journey for a long time, others it'll be relatively new.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: So let's start by kind of creating a level playing field.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: I wonder if you could just define for your audience what DEIB means as far as you're concerned.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: Happy to do it.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_02: So let's break down these pieces.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: So diversity, these are the characteristics or the puzzle pieces that make people unique.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: And these include, but they're not really limited to things like race and gender and age, orientation, disabilities.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: When we look at equity, really that's the fair distribution of resources, opportunities, and also benefits to make sure everyone has the support needed to succeed, irrespective of their background or identity.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_02: People have different needs, need different resources.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: So equity is not necessarily equality.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: When we look at inclusion, inclusion is ways that we can create cultures and environments where people or groups they feel valued, they feel welcomed, they feel supported and also respected and able to really fully participate regardless of differences.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's the B for belonging.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_02: That's a sense of feeling secure, of being recognized, affirmed, accepted so that people can fully participate.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: When that's missing, people are much less engaged and most must um much less likely to stick around in an organization.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen this field evolve quite a bit during the course of my career.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um often with companies um starting by kind of making sure that they're complying with legislation.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: That could have been, for example, civil rights legislation or other forms of legislation through more like significant diversity and inclusion efforts, and then a transition almost to where we're at today.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_01: I'd I'd love to get your take on how this has evolved and why you think it's evolved in the way that it has.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: Now we know laws protect against discrimination in the United States, against things like age, race, gender, orientation, ability, but there's many more things that make people diverse and different that are important to understand.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: Things like different languages, education level, veteran status, parent status, socioeconomic status, political views, and the like.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so the more that we can be open to learning about things that are different of these characteristics, I think is a big reason why DEIB keeps evolving.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_02: Because some people in the beginning may have felt left out.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hey, what about me?
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: And so it just keeps going.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's fascinating because um you bring into play all kinds of different uh all kinds of differences between us.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I think, you know, for many people that's been uh a source of concern or or tension even about these.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, if my what if my political views are feel different to the organization in which I in which I sit, wherever I happen to sit on the political spectrum, what if my company doesn't uh doesn't match with that?
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: So it's really interesting that you're kind of bringing in those differences in terms of how we how we feel.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's almost like you have like in order to be able to to truly accommodate all of that, you have to accommodate people that that may feel and think quite differently to say the founders of the organization feel or um or the company as a whole feels.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: How do you think companies, particularly larger companies, can navigate that appropriately?
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so navigating differences, that's an interesting question.
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that it can't just come from human resources.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: I think historically the DEI or the chief diversity officer typically fell under the umbrella of the CHRO, chief human resource officer.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_02: More and more today, I'm seeing chief diversity officers or diversity executives reporting directly to the CEO because diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging is not just an HR box to check.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's cultural, it's behavioral, it's legal, it has to do with infrastructure, it has to do with facilities, it has to do with policy as well as learning and development.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_02: And so I've seen it evolve much more to have chief human, um, chief uh diversity officers really reporting directly to the CEO.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that's because a lack of inclusion and belonging and equality can have a massive business impact or cost, just like having strong levels and cultures of inclusion, equity, belonging can have a huge business strength as well.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_02: And as we know, folks in the C-suite or CEOs and executives want to know how this is impacting the bottom line?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_02: How is this impacting the business?
• 7:52
  SPEAKER_02: So that's what I've seen more and more in larger and in global companies.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: Well, let's get into the specifics of that because I think that will be very interesting to a lot of people.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um back when we were thinking of this as I wouldn't necessarily say a box checking uh checking exercise, but a compliance exercise, a lot of that was about avoiding risk and avoiding loss and so on.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_01: But what you're arguing here is that there is potential strong business upside to truly addressing these issues.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: I know from my time at Microsoft, we got a good degree of education about what some of uh what some of that would be, often really starting actually focusing on uh on bringing in uh and accommodating people with different um concerns around accessibility, for example, and things like that.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: But it's not, I know it's not limited to that.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: So why don't you um so why don't you talk a little bit more about what these business results kind of are and and uh where are we at in terms of gathering evidence, concrete evidence that leaders can can look at to justify these types of initiatives?
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Paul.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: So in a few years ago, Accenture did a very large study, the Getting to Equal study, the hidden value of culture makers.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_02: And this study was on inclusion in the workplace.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_02: And in Accenture's study, they found when they did, when they interviewed and did the assessment on leaders, 98% of leaders in US companies felt that they had an inclusive culture.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_02: They said, we're 98% of the way there.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then they asked that same question to employees, but only 80% of the employees felt the workplace was inclusive.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_02: So some of you listening might think, oh, that's only about 18 or 20 percent difference.
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_02: But let me tell you, Accenture also ran the numbers on the opportunity cost of having a work culture and environment that was not inclusive.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_02: Now, this is a 2020 figure, so this is a little bit dated, but they found for US businesses the opportunity cost was 1.05 trillion with the T dollars.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_02: And that's 2020, and everyone knows with inflation coming out of the pandemic, the cost of everything has gone up from groceries to talent to products and services.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I just think that's that's a pretty eye-opening figure.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: Diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging is never just a nice to have, but a bottom line business imperative.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_02: And people may wonder, well, what does that number stand for?
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_02: Or what does that mean?
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's where human resources can come in and they can say, hey, we're having trouble hiring new talent because our workplace doesn't look inviting, because current employees aren't bragging about where they're working to try to get their peers to apply and to work here.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_02: People aren't wanting to stick around and stay employed at the organization for very long.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_02: And this also impacts promotability and employee engagement, which all have bottom line business impacts.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to that, the the US Chamber of Commerce Foundation did a study and they found.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: So I told you the opportunity cost of getting this wrong, but the opportunity cost of getting this right was that they had a 6.5% increase.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_02: So company stock performance compared to their industry sector increased by six and a half percentage points after engaging in inclusive policies.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Companies with LGBT inclusive practices improve financial performance.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_02: However, this didn't happen for five or ten years.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I think it's often important for folks to know that if they want to adopt strong DEIB policies or practices or build their culture, it's not something, unfortunately, that we can just snap our fingers and have shift, but that it can in fact take five to ten years.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_02: And then looking at, you know, past Deloitte studies, 72% of people said they would leave an organization for one that they believed were more inclusive.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: So this is data, like I said, coming out of Accenture, coming out of Deloitte.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I tend to read those studies about this stuff because they're the ones that are spending the money and doing the research.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: So just some numbers to share with everybody.
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think the only thing I would add to that is that if you need some evidence of that that is more kind of like based on raw data, I would encourage folks to go uh into uh into apps that that measure employee sentiment.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, people always think about things like Glassdoor and so on, but there are a bunch of other sites where people are much, much more unfiltered about what the experience is like inside their organizations.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't take long to kind of like troll through that through some of that information to see really concrete examples of good talent that is leaving an organization or not joining an organization uh because of how they feel about the uh the inclusiveness and belonging inside an organization.
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: So um it is it is something obviously that that translates to um to both the bottom line and the uh and the top line inside organizations.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And these kind of studies I think really illustrate that.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um when you see pushback to these types of initiatives, is it typically based on a lack of understanding of that uh type of data, or are there other reasons why it's quite why it's quite common to see uh pushback from organizations?
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: Because that's certainly something we've in uh we've encountered inside our work, a kind of disconnect between the employee and the employer, but then no real willingness on the employer side to part.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so this pushback can appear in some different ways, Paul.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_02: Leaders in the C-suite not committed to investing and learning and development about DEIB, or employees treating others in ways that are not inclusive and sometimes possibly even illegal, not updating policies or facilities to be physically included, or policies like health insurance and things like that that are more inclusive for all employees.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_02: When I get pushback, especially from the C-suite, often I will share the findings from that Accenture study because I don't know many C-suite executives that will ignore the T-word trillion.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: I just don't.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so sometimes C-suite leaders who maybe have less exposure to DEIB and the impact may push back, but then sharing the data to show that this isn't just a nice to have, this is a business imperative that's that's that's essential so that your business can keep doing well and that your employees want to keep doing their best and bringing their smart friends along to join the company.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I think you know, money talks when it comes to performance issues with individual employees or teams.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: I I often advise human resources to really be proactive in dealing with employee issues.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_02: If there's discrimination or harassment present, let's deal with this stuff.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_02: And uh, because I think we all know that people are watching.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: What are leaders' responses to incidents like that?
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: If things are not done to put those issues away, they're gonna keep coming up, and it sends the message to other employees that it's okay to harass people or be discriminatory or behave in ways that probably the organization doesn't really want to have happening.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's very interesting.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: And recently I was at an event with the Massachusetts Attorney General just a couple of weeks ago, and I asked her how is the Commonwealth, the state of Massachusetts, supporting supplier diversity with recent affirmative action decisions coming out of the Supreme Court.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_02: And her office will be 100% committed to support supplier diversity.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: So though for those who aren't familiar with supplier diversity, many businesses have a goal.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: 20, 30, 40, 50% of suppliers need to be diverse.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_02: And that can mean different things from race to um abilities to ethnicity to orientation now would qualify.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so the attorney general in Massachusetts at her office would 100% continue to support this.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_02: They have an official statement online that shared with Massachusetts about this, also.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_02: So even with very recent legislation from the Supreme Court, many states and most companies are still promoting diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging.
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I think you're touching on one of the reasons why this has come up as a topic that people want to cover.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I I think there's a couple of a couple of things from that you've just said that I'd love to delve into in a little bit more deeply.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_01: First off, you you talk about we'll we'll start with where you kind of ended there, which is around the Supreme Court decision itself.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm not an attorney, so please I understand, right?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: So nothing and and we don't need to get into a detailed political discussion or a legal discussion or any of that kind of stuff.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: No intention of doing that.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: However, however, one thing I am curious about is that obviously there is a legal and political backdrop to the discussion that we're um that that we are having here, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Into legal, the the uh cases that you're talking about out of the Supreme Court, political, um, the sort of almost connection of some of this stuff to the term woke and all of those kind of things.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: So I think my question for you my question for you is a little bit broader, which is in your experience as a um as somebody who is deeply steeped in this field, um has the fact that the political climate has become dominated by some of these discussions and these leak legal issues have uh have arisen, has that led to in among some companies either greater hesitation or a lack of willingness to pursue this if they weren't pursuing this already?
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: What are you what are you kind of seeing as you kind of read into the tea leaves in terms of what organizations are actually doing as a result of the political and the legal climate currently?
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm getting this question about once a week, Paul.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_02: And fortunately for me and the work that I do, the DEIB focused, inclusive, and belonging work has increased exponentially.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_02: I know at first when the Supreme Court decision came down, many of us in this field were like, whoa, everyone's gonna pull way back, be very afraid.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: And there are some organizations that are for sure.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_02: But the volume of organizations that keep asking for this kind of work to support their organizations, their mission, their vision, their values, their culture has just continued to increase and grow, which I feel incredibly fortunate for because it certainly may or could go the other way as well.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's surprising when you tell people that.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_02: They're like, wow, we thought you'd be like out of business.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: No.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_02: And not on wood, but I just feel really thankful and very fortunate the way things are with the companies that I'm honored to support and work with.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: Well, of course, it does.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the reality is that in many cases, organizations, certainly ones that have already started down this path, right, are seeing some benefits associated with it, right?
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're probably trying to figure out, you know, what what or how can they continue to go down the path in which they're going and still be, you know, legally compliant and doing everything that they need to do with uh with regard to that.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that broader framing that you uh that you started the conversation with is a part of that as well.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: The other element that I wanted to bring up as well is sort of based on something that that we've seen inside organizations, which uh and this is largely earlier organizations or smaller organizations, but it's kind of like the if it ain't broke, don't fix it type of uh type of situation, combined with um how you go about um treating uh treating uh employees inside your organization that are not behaving in a way that comports to your DEIB policy.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm I'm curious as to how how much, if anything, you see of that.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, you know, I'd say inside many organizations of of almost all ilks, particularly ones that tend to have like a technology background or something along those lines, you get the talented but difficult employees, if you know what I mean.
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, as in we can't possibly afford to lose X or Y or Z, and sure they're in quotes a little bit rough around the edges, but that's the price you pay for having this you know extraordinary talent.
• 21:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so it It's that where it fits into the sort of remit of this podcast is we look a lot around individual dynamics, team dynamics, organizational dynamics, and how those things kind of kind of relate to each other.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_01: So when you kind of combine those two things, the one, well, you know, nothing's really happened to us yet.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so, and there's not and and and you know, if we if we do X or Y or Z, that will change our culture.
• 22:22
  SPEAKER_01: And we kind of like our culture, so we don't want to change our culture.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: And then combine that with the sort of like special white glove treatment of certain individuals who may not uh who may not um sort of function in the way in which you you would hope that they would on a day-to-day basis regarding your policies.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: Those are things that we see.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_01: Do you see that at all?
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And if you do, how do you advise organizations through that?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think it's a little different to look at startup organizations versus well-established companies.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, with startups, I like to let them know as early as possible it's never too soon to start building a culture of inclusion and belonging.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: And this can start right away when they're developing their mission, their values, their initial goals to hiring people who are diverse, not just by race or by gender, but also abilities, orientations, age groups, education level.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_02: This could be also having DEI competencies on their hiring guides, ensuring facilities are inclusive.
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_02: And when I say facilities, it could be the physical office space where they have gender non-conforming bathrooms and hygiene products everywhere, handicap access, breast pumping rooms, to giving people option to have different technology equipment to make sure that they have what they need.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_02: My nephew, a recent undergraduate in college, is legally blind.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_02: He couldn't get the same laptop computer as every other student because he wouldn't be able to see.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_02: And so we have employees that have different abilities that we need to be sure that we're supporting both legally and to be inclusive.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so having the tech equipment as the business startup grows and they have to be adding headcount and departments and divisions, you know, looking at supporting groups like employee resource groups or having resources for veterans, women, folks with different abilities, ethnicities, those that are parents, those that are providing elder care, there's a lot of ways we're different besides the six or seven ways that the United States laws say we need to accommodate.
• 24:50
  SPEAKER_02: And so although some of those suggestions may seem overwhelming if you're a startup, if you are starting up, these are things to keep in mind through the growth and the evolution of your organization.
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_01: I mean we work with organizations, as I mentioned, of all sizes.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_01: And I think that one of the challenges, particularly early on in organizations, is sort of when do you reach the point of going beyond thinking about this to actually doing something that in quotes costs money?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: And and so I think that's I I think the way you frame it is really is really interesting because um in some cases some of those things are nothing really other than statements you make, like you know how you frame your your mission and your vision and and any cultural statements that you're that you're making and documenting.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: And in a sense, it's sort of preparing yourself.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_01: In other cases, for example, if you're a startup, you might be in shared office space, whereby some of those decisions are already being made for you.
• 26:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it might just be whether you're choosing office space A or office space B based on those things, right?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it can be a lot less complicated than we make it out to be.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: And probably what it's about, I think, really early on, is sort of educating yourself on the specifics of it so that it's not a costly rerouting or redirecting later on, costly in in terms of like having to shift your culture, but also potentially costly because you got something wrong and there's been some consequence to getting uh to getting something wrong early on.
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, a lot of it is probably just you know awareness early on, but awareness driving the actions that you are able to take early on.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: And some of these changes can be free, they can be totally free.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_02: For example, a grocery store in New England.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um they a few years ago changed the signs on their restroom, and it just says restroom.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_02: It doesn't say male, female, gender non-conforming families.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_02: Anyone can use any bathroom.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: And I'll be honest with you, in my house, anyone can use my bathroom too.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_02: So simple, I know we can laugh about this, but simple, yeah.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it's it's pretty much free can make a huge impact.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_02: And in terms of you know, educating can be as simple as sharing TED Talks, or there's so much on YouTube as you know, having this podcast, having TED Talks, sharing YouTube videos, and asking people to like watch and let's have a team discussion about it, can have a big impact.
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_02: In addition to Paul, looking at who is the organization supporting outside of the company, what nonprofits or organizations is the company donating to or funding, and that can paint a clear picture as well about the organization's values.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_02: Many and most major companies donate, and so who are they supporting?
• 28:09
  SPEAKER_02: So, some internal and some outside-facing things to think about free, but there doesn't have to cost as much either.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so we've talked a little bit about um, I guess the changing political climate and so on, but we haven't really talked yet much about the changes in the world of work, the sort of how of work.
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: So obviously the the how and the what and the when and the where and the why of work are all are all kind of changing.
• 28:36
  SPEAKER_01: I'm thinking of things like, for example, um changing working hours, uh, for example, support for work from home, hybrid work, things like that.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then of course, also the nature of work in many cases becoming much more sort of unstructured and ambiguous, much less task-based and more outcome-based and things like that.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, now that's a topic that we discuss quite a lot on this podcast in general, but I'm curious as to how those the dramatic changes in terms of the work environment, um, how that is impacting um DIB.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: You could use specific examples like uh, like, for example, hybrid and remote or something or something else.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_02: So there's two things I I thought about with sharing in terms of this question.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_02: Hybrid and remote workplaces are extremely welcoming and being demanded by those who are less represented.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe your workplace is predominantly female, and there's a few guys that work there.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_02: So they would be less represented.
• 29:41
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe the majority of your workforce is from different countries, and maybe your um United States-based folks feel less represented.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Could be differences in age, but the remote workplace or the hybrid workplace was extremely beneficial to those who feel that they are less represented, whether it's abilities or disabilities, race, religion, people felt safer when they were able to have hybrid or working from home accommodations.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's important to think about.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_02: Also, younger employees, the younger the generations get, they place a higher and higher focus on DEIB.
• 30:34
  SPEAKER_02: It is much, much more important to somebody who's 25 than maybe someone who is from a much older generation to make sure that workplaces are inclusive.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_02: And again, I shared some of those Deloitte studies that are showing that 80% of people are looking for some place that's more inclusive if your workplace isn't it.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_02: And with the baby boomer retirement wave that is happening, we have to be sure that we can get great talent, but we need to be even more sure that we can keep them, that they want to stay, and that our workplace is a great place for them to be.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: So those are two things that I thought about the less represented folks and their desire to be having more flexible workplaces, and those younger folks who just really are demanding inclusive.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_01: All right, let's take each of those in in turn and just dive a little bit deeper on each of them because I think I think both are absolutely fascinating.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the first one um that you talk about, we've seen a lot of that ourselves.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And the one thing that I want to I want to emphasize here is that you you you mentioned a point of safety, and and this is an this is actually pretty pretty enormous.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: We interviewed a whole bunch of people um that had transitioned into um this remote work in some cases um you know just literally overnight from you know pre-pandemic into into pandemic.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: And obviously for many people, we shouldn't ignore this, for many people that was extremely challenging, right?
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: Because their environments weren't set up to support it and all this uh and all this kind of stuff.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: However, for many people, it created an environment that was significantly safer across a whole bunch of different dimensions.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_01: So in some cases they reported increased psychological safety, in other cases they reported increased uh physical safety as well.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: And financial.
• 32:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in other words, and financial safety as well.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so we spoke to multiple people, for example, for whom um the act of a commute was not terribly safe for them on a day-to-day basis.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_01: And getting rid of that commute release relieved one of the major parts of stress.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: So not just the pain of a commute, the time and all that kind of stuff, but literally the safety of the commute.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then of course, it uh the other thing that it can do as well, these flexible work arrangements, is they can open up your recruitment pool, not just to people that are more than 20 miles away from you, but to people who, for a whole bunch of different reasons, um, find it uh difficult to physically commute into an office.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: That could be because they're caring for an elderly relative, because they've got two kids across different parts of town and they need to be able to get them to get both kids to school and from school.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: And they need to accommodate that in their in their working day.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: So increasing, regardless of whether you're remote or whether you're hybrid, just increasing flexibility around where and when people can do their work, opens up the pool of people that can do it dramatically inside organizations.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so we've in general seen um a uh that being a real boon, and therefore the pull back into the office potentially in some cases having a having a negative impact.
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now it's not 100%, right?
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_01: There are a bunch of uh, for example, for everybody that that we're talking about there, there are other people that were in an office environment and they used an office environment as part of having a community and now they're feeling super lonely because they're uh because they're outside of uh of a physical office environment.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_01: So it is a complicated uh topic to address, but it's I think it's worth capturing the relationship between DEIB and these and flexible work arrangements.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um before I get on the second one, any other thoughts on that?
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I just think it has been fascinating to watch the leaders of Fortune 10 or Fortune 50 companies that kind of put their fists down and say you have to be here.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then there's, you know, many employees who are saying we're not coming back, and they can only push and pull so much.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_02: Organizations need leaders to set policy, to set strategy, to point the direction of the company.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_02: And without employees to execute and do the job, you can't produce products and services.
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been an interesting view from my perspective as one who is not employed by a major company, because my company, I'm self-employed.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's been fascinating.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: I think there are many reasons to want employees to be back at work.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_02: There are many reasons employees see the benefits in being at work.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: You have workplaces that have a fitness center, some have childcare, some have, you know, commuting benefits where they pick you up in a bus or a shuttle, um, and just the ability to be physically around people.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: And the other side of that coin is you have a lot of people who are at home with kids that working from home really helped with scheduling, or they're taking care of an elderly or an ill parent or family member, or even a dog.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_02: So many people got dogs during the pandemic.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Now they have to go to back to work.
• 36:03
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my gosh, now I have to pay for doggy daycare because you know I can't be home five days a week to watch puppy or dog.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: So there's there's just a lot of strings, I think, being pulled with this.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: Do I have the right answer?
• 36:18
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely not.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_02: It's up to the organization and their employees, their culture, what's being demanded by their customers or their clients.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I think as we continue to evolve in this way, having some flexibility and being open to trying different things, to figure out what works.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_02: This is all sort of a testing ground right now because things keep shifting and changing.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_02: And as that relates to DIB, the more we can do to help people feel like they belong, the end of the day, that's what matters because that's what keeps people wanting to come to work.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then that I think draws us very neatly into the other point that you're making about how younger people feel um with regard to initiatives and uh to DEIB initiatives.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: So this to me um is kind of the the heart of the case um for people that for whom this is not already an imperative for some, let's say, uh um moral justification or emotional reason or whatever it happens to be.
• 37:27
  SPEAKER_01: If you're not bought into it based on that, if if the trillion is too abstract for you, then the heart of it is the people that can c that can come to work for you every day.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_01: And as you as you rightly point out, we've seen this in our own work as well, that the newer generation that are coming into the workforce, it is just a fact that there are uh they have different sets of priorities than some of the uh some of the older workers coming into the workforce.
• 37:57
  SPEAKER_01: So um I'm sure you've seen this in sort of specific examples.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_01: I know we have as well, whereby um for younger people, um like alignment to the mission goes beyond this company makes shoes and I like shoes, right?
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's something which is uh which is to a certain extent deeper than that.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it would be okay, I care about how you make your shoes, and I care about where you get your uh uh who does the work to make the shoes, and I care about what the supply chain is associated with those shoes, and I care about what the environmental impact is of making these shoes and all that and all this kind of stuff.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_01: So, in other words, there's a lot more depth, if you like, to the to the way in which the company is is fulfilling its mission than than has previously been there.
• 38:47
  SPEAKER_01: And that translates to decisions that people make about where they're gonna work.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm guessing you've seen that too much.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely, and also where they're gonna shop.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: As you've said, right?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: People buy Patagonia, for example, for a reason because it's not only awesome gear, I'm a little biased, but they have really put their money where their mouth is in terms of some of these pieces and how it impacts the entire supply chain.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: I've also seen an exponential growth in businesses working towards being certified as a B Corp or a Betterment Corporation, where their numbers are measured annually or every other year that look at people, planet, and profit.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_02: Many and many of my clients are B Corp, and that is essential to the way they want to operate as a business, not just the bottom line, which it's extremely important.
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_02: Businesses need to be profitable, but what are we doing to the planet in terms of environmental impacts and how are we supporting our communities that we set up shop in or that we support?
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_02: So that may have been a little bit of a tangent, but I think it really ties to what you were saying, Paul, about looking at the entire system when it comes to making our decisions about where are we working and where are we spending our money.
• 40:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd say not too much of a tangent.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: It reminds me of uh a phrase that um that I had not that long ago.
• 40:23
  SPEAKER_01: It was at a um, I was in Canada actually speaking at a conference, and uh um in one of the sidebar discussions that we were having, we were discussing C Corps versus B Corps, et cetera.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: And it was a statement that I had, and I'm still processing it, but I so I'd be curious to hear your your point of view on it.
• 40:39
  SPEAKER_01: But the statement was something along the lines of whether you're a B Corp or a C Corp or a 501c3 or whatever, whatever you are, but particularly even if you're a C Corp, you should start potentially thinking like a B Corp.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_01: Because thinking like a B Corp will give will provide a bunch of downstream benefits, um, even though you're a C Corp.
• 41:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm curious as to what your thoughts are on that.
• 41:02
  SPEAKER_01: It just popped in my head as you were talking about it.
• 41:04
  SPEAKER_02: So I've been supporting clients that are B Corps for over a decade.
• 41:09
  SPEAKER_02: And I love working with B Corp clients because of those foundational pieces that make it essential that they're not just looking out for one piece of that pie.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I'm less familiar with C Corps or I mean 501c3 obviously is a not-for-profit, but we have to put our people, the people that we impact as businesses, first and foremost.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_02: That's at least my view.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_01: So, last question for you.
• 41:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, as we mentioned at the start at the outset, this is a field that has evolved quite a bit over the course of the last few years.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I'd love to know something you think you knew about DEIB, let's say five or 10 years ago, that ended up being completely and utterly wrong.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know that I would call it wrong, Paul, but just that it's evolved and it's different.
• 42:09
  SPEAKER_02: So when I first started learning about DI, which it was originally known as 15 or 20 years ago, I thought, all right, this diversity and inclusion thing, or just diversity, it was just the D, then we added the I.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_02: I thought, all right, I can understand that.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_02: This makes sense.
• 42:28
  SPEAKER_02: What I didn't expect or anticipate was that we'd keep adding more letters and more focus to this acronym.
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_02: It's D E I I Now to include equity.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_02: Then it's D E I B to include belonging.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_02: With some organizations, it's D E I J, or they call it JEDI to include justice.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: With some organizations, it's DEIA, diversity, equity, inclusion, accessibility.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_02: And from my perspective and the work that I'm fortunate and thankful to be doing, I think it's really great because it keeps growing to include more and different efforts.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_02: It used to be gender, then race, then orientation, then abilities.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: And if anyone googles the diversity wheel, you'll see an image of a wheel that has those legal definitions in the middle.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_02: But then the outside pieces of that image are things like national origin, religion, political belief, veterans, parents, roles, age, socioeconomic.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: And I think it's gonna keep expanding, which I think is wonderful because someone always feels discluded.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_02: And so the more we can make sure that the work and the efforts supporting DEIB continue to help people feel like they are included and that they belong here at work, at home, the better.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_02: In my way.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: All right, Sarah, that's a great place to leave it.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for your time today.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: Really appreciate it.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: Really great to be here.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for having me.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_00: Humanity Working is produced and edited for Billion Minds by Matt Neal.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: Our interviewer is Paul Slater.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_00: Music is by Dolo Records.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_00: If you like this podcast, please subscribe, like, and recommend us to others.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_00: It helps us reach more people.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to learn more about how Billion Minds gets companies ready for the future of work by building adaptable, resilient employees, look for them on LinkedIn or visit their website at billionminds.com.