Latest / Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood / 209. Lizzie Borden Part 1 & 2 - From the Vault

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209. Lizzie Borden Part 1 & 2 - From the Vault · Who Did What Now With Katie Charlwood

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: A space in my house so that I can actually
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: record properly and things are slow but they are getting there. Anyway,
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: please be considerate with the old audio and my old
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: editing and yeah, seeing as Ryan Murphy tends to be
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: a bit liberal with his history, I thought why don't
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: I provide you accurate information.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Now I haven't seen it.
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Yet but But I'm going to watch it and then
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to report back with next week's scheduled episode.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I hadn't actually planned doing this, but I thought, you
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: know what?
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: May as well.
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: So you will have heard from me, I think, nearly
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: every day this week. I think at this point. Sorry.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: But also, hey, hi, hello.
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: And enjoy the episode.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Hi everybody and welcome to Who Did What Now, the
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: history podcast that's not your history class, with me your
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: host Katie Charlewood, history harlot and reader of books. I've
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: made my favourite joke I have ever made in my
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: life and it is so niche. It's peak millennial. Especially
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: peak millennial. Anyone who follows British politics, you know. I
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: was watching the Jubilee and there's Boris, the current Prime
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: Minister of England, who is a fucking buffoon who lands
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: in shit and somehow always comes out smelling of roses.
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: And he's going into the cathedral and he's being booed.
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: So I made this joke.
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Boris is going in, he turns to his wife. Are
• 1:56
  Speaker 2: they booing me?
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: Oh no, they're saying boo-ris, boo-ris, which is based on
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: The Simpsons, where Mr. Burns is being booed and Smothers goes,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: they're saying boo-erns, boo-erns. And then some people responded with
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Hans Molman, sort of. I was saying boo-ris and it
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: just tickled me so much.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: I'm so proud.
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: I laughed at it.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: I thought I was really funny.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: I know I've technically just stolen someone else's joke.
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: But it made me chortle so much and it was
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: so perfect that I just, I'm laughing now.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I know what you're thinking.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: You're thinking, quit your jibber jabber, infect me, infect you,
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: I will. But first, we've got to get our source on. So,
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: our sources are Lizzie Borden and the Trail of the
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Century by Sarah Miller. The Trail of Lizzie Borden by
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: Kamma Robertson. Lizzie Borden, The Legend, The Truth, The Final Chapter,
• 2:58
  Speaker 1: by Arnold R.
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: Brown.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: We also have our favourites, History.com, Smithsonian.com, and one of
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: my new favourite things, LizzieAndrewBorden.com. Are you sitting comfortably?
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Good.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: Then let's begin.
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: So I know that a lot of my American and
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: Canadian followers will probably know this rhyme, or at least
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: the first verse of it. As far as I can tell,
• 3:22
  Speaker 1: not many people know of the second verse. I didn't
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: even know about the first one until a few years ago,
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: but it goes as such. Lizzie Borden took an axe
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: and gave her mother 40 whacks. When she saw what
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: she had done, she gave her father 41. This is
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: basically one of those, I want to call it a
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: skipping rope rhyme. Like, you do the skip on the
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: beat and you jump in. Anyway, the second verse goes...
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: Andrew Borden now is dead. Lizzie hit him on the head.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: Up in heaven he will sing. On the gallows she
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: will swing. Now, I don't know about you, but I
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: think the first verse is just punchier. I think all
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: in all it kind of encompasses the whole story. And
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: we don't really need a second verse.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: But it exists.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: And I wanted to share that with you. And before
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: I get into like the nitty gritty of this case,
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: when I was doing research and I was like in
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: and out of forms and stuff as well, just to
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: get a wee sort of idea of what everyone's perception
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: of the case was because that's fascinating to me. Seeing
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: if there was any like newspaper clippings or bits and
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: pieces that hadn't been put anywhere else it's always a
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: good place to go. What I noticed is that people
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: who are like super into the Lizzie Borden case are
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: very similar to like reprologists and people who are super
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: into H.H.
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: Holmes.
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: Like it's a very similar vibe You know, people have
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: an opinion. It is their opinion. And they are very
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: direct with it. There's no swaying for them, regardless how
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: much evidence is provided to the alternative. And, you know,
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: you've got your people who are, like, pro, some are anti,
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: and then you've got the conspiracy theorists who are always fun,
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: but sometimes stress-inducing. And the way people obsess over the
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: Leslie Borden case, I hadn't actually seen except for... The
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: Ripper slayings. The Whitechapel murders. Like I really haven't seen
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: as much sort of fervour for anything. And there's conspiracy
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: theorists and there's other theories flying about the place. So
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: there's like a load of theories just swirling around about
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: who could have done it, why they.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: Did it, so on and so forth.
• 5:33
  Speaker 3: And they are.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: Interesting to fucking mental. And they go from like silly
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: to interesting to absolutely bonkers. Absolutely bonkers. But we'll get
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: into that at the end. But, you know, I did
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: struggle with, like, do I tell the murder first and
• 5:50
  Speaker 1: then tell the background? Or do linear? And I did
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: decide just to go chronological as much as possible because...
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: Fuck it. Let's just do it. Okay. Because this is
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: the story of Lizzie Borden, it makes sense to start
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: with Lizzie. And so we shall. Lizzie Andrew Borden.
• 6:07
  Speaker 2: That's right.
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: Her middle name was Andrew. Lizzie Andrew Borden was born
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: on the 19th of July, 1860. in Fall River, Massachusetts,
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: to Andrew Jackson Borden and his wife, Sarah Anthony Borden.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: Lizzie was the youngest of three children the Bordens would
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: have together. So I'm going to assume that a woman
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: having her father's name as her middle name was very
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: common in this time, or maybe some kind of family tradition,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: because Sarah's dad was Anthony, Anthony Morse, and obviously Lizzie's
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: dad was Andrew Jackson Borden. Now, Sarah and Andrew, they
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: had been married... a couple of years. And they were
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: fairly well on when they started having kids. So their oldest,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: Emma Lenora Borden, she's born in 1851. And four years later,
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: Sarah gives birth to Alice Esther Borden. So Alice, tragically,
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: she passes away at one and a half on what
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: was referred to as dropsy of the brain. Effectively, there
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: was fluid buildup in her brain, hydrocephalus, and if it's untreated,
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: it's fatal. Unfortunately for Alice, that was the case. Two
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: years after Alice's passing, Lizzie Andrew Borden is born. So
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: by the time Lizzie is born, her older sister Emma
• 7:23
  Speaker 1: is nine. And when Emma's 11 and Lizzie is just
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: shy of her third birthday, their mother, Sarah, passes away
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: from uterine congestion and spinal disease. Now, I'm not a
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: doctor by any stretch of the imagination, but I did
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: a wee bit of research because I've seen uterine congestion
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: show up in quite a number of female deaths. And
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: As far as I can figure out, it's kind of
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: like having varicose veins, but.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: In your pelvis.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: It's really fucking painful.
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: It's excruciating.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: And it was actually a more common condition in pre-menopausal
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: women than it was in women who'd gone through the menopause,
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: which is what it is in modern terms. But uterine
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: congestion was used as this blanket term back in the
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: day for like a bunch of different stuff just down
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: there in the lady area. And Sarah's uterine congestion... Could
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: have been anything from a miscarriage to degenerative scoliosis to
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: even syphilis or some other aggressive STI. Now, anything else
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: about her condition, I actually couldn't find information on.
• 8:30
  Speaker 3: Like, at all.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: Now, being a woman in the past, we don't really
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: have that much information on Sarah, on their biological mum.
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: We don't have that info. Because why would we? Why
• 8:43
  Speaker 1: would we have it? Nah. I mean, there are two
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: things that we can say about Sarah Anthony Borden. One
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: is that she died of relatively natural causes. And two,
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: that on her deathbed, she charged her daughter Emma with
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: looking after baby Lizzie. And Emma must have been like
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: 11-ish about this time. So Emma being, well, the lady
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: of the house, effectively, she took it upon herself to
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: be the mother figure for Lizzie. So I guess it's
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: time to talk about Andrew Borden. So Andrew Jackson Borden,
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: he was effectively a self-made man. So even though his
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: family were descendants of sort of higher classes and sort
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: of native Yankees of the area, not native peoples of
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: the area because that would be indigenous people and they
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: certainly were not those. But he came from high stock,
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: good stock, good stock. That being said, he didn't actually
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: grow up with a silver spoon in his mouth. I mean,
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: he'd be lucky to have a spoon at all, really.
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: He did not grow up in a financially stable environment.
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: Let's just put it that way.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: So Andrew, he's got a head for business and Falls River.
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: it is very much an industrial textile town so he
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: starts off with this furniture company which does pretty well
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: and he also has a casket company that's right coffins
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: caskets because in fairness it's a business that's until such
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: times as we find a more convenient way to dispose
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: of human remains. I mean, you're always going to have customers.
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: So these do really well and he makes money from that.
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: So then he's like investing in real estate, he's buying properties,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: he ends up owning like textile mills, becomes the president
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: of Union Savings Bank and a director of the Durfee
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: Sale Deposit.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: And Trust Company.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And so whenever he earned like so much money from businesses,
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: he was able to invest that straight away into new things.
• 10:48
  Speaker 2: Like, the man always.
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: Had access to cash. Like, he was never in debt.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: He never owed anybody anything. So, like, he would be
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: able to pay for things up front. There was no
• 10:57
  Speaker 1: credit needed.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: It was just there.
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: He always had access to cold, hard cash. And, you know,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: you may be thinking, oh, that's a really smart businessman.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: You know, that's really good. That's thinking smart. Well, Andrew here,
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: he was frugal to the point of tomfuckery. He didn't
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: believe in frivolity. and excess spending, right? Spending for leisure
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: just wasn't a thing for him. Like, I get that
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: some people live to work and they're obsessed with finances,
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: but it's always good to live a little too, maybe,
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: a wee bit. Home comforts, some might say. But throughout
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: his entire life, Andrew just doesn't stop working. We don't
• 11:38
  Speaker 1: really have much information about him apart from the fact
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: that he was.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Maybe a bit weird.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: He is one of the wealthier people In False River. Like,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: he's not the wealthiest. He's not the richest person there.
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: But he is one of them. And he has, like,
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: the right... And he has the... Cough, cough. Right ancestry. Cough. He...
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: Doesn't really involve himself in, like... What someone of his
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: status should be. Now, remember when I said frugal to.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: The point of tomfuckery? Well, his house... didn't have gas.
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: So, like, gas lights didn't have that throughout the house.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: And it's a weird fucking house. I'm going to talk
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: about this house in a minute. It's a weird fucking house.
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: Before I do, let's add another character who.
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: May or may not be one of the actual nicer.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: People in this story. And that is Abby Durfee Gray.
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: So she marries Andrew Jackson Borden three years after Sarah dies.
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: And at this point, Abby is, like, effectively an old maid.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: She's in her thirties at this point. But.
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: Andrew and Abby, they don't have any kids together throughout
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: their entire marriage. Now, it could be that Abby had
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: already gone through the menopause. Perhaps she was sterile. Perhaps,
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: I don't know, something happened to Andrew's sperm count. Whom's
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: to say? Maybe they just didn't have sex. Or, I
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: don't know, maybe Abby knew her way around a condom.
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: Because Andrew's a fairly practical man, it's been suggested more
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: than once that their marriage was a marriage of convenience.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: So Andrew felt like he needed, like, A wife, someone
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: to run the household and be the mother to his children.
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: And Abby, Abby really needed security, really. So her family,
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: they were always kind of circling the rim of debt.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: Like they were always struggling financially. And Abby, as I said,
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: was like an old maid at this point. She was
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: seen as not a viable match for a lot of people.
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: So it actually makes sense. It's like a pretty good
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: deal for the both of them. She gets, you know, safety, security,
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: somewhere to live. And he gets, you know, a replacement wife. Huzzah.
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: So what's funny to me as well is, like, we
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: don't know how well they knew each other beforehand or
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: how long they'd been courting or whatever. Like, Andrew was
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: fairly well known in Falls River. He was, like, he
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: owned businesses. He was directors of, like, banks and trusts
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: and shit. So you know of this man and you
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: marry into that. And then you.
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: Don't have a pot to piss in. Like, it's so weird.
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: A member of high society, or he should be, So
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: you marry in and then you move into this cold, dark, dank, depressing, weird,
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: weird house. Like that's gonna be a, um, it's gonna
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: be something, right? So they get married and from the get-go,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: like because Lizzie's so small, for most of her life
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: she does refer to Abby as mother. Like, That's what
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: she called her. It's not so much that she thought
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: that she.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: Was her mother.
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: Like, it was always made very clear to her that
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: Abby was her stepmother. Now, whether this was because they
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: were trying to, like, be an honest household or if
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: this was because Emma very much played the mothering role and,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: you know, wasn't going to let anybody take that away
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: from her, maybe. Whom's to say? Or whether they wanted
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: to ensure that she knew who her biological mother was.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Or because Emma, she was like really involved in this
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: mothering role, that she really saw herself as mother to
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: Lizzie as opposed to sister. And Abby was there just
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: to kind of do the other stuff, the sort of
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: running of the household, so on and so forth. Now
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: this house, this house is fucking weird, man. So it's
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: three stories. The top story is like the maid's quarters
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: and the, you know, the top floor. So I think
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: it's called the second story in America and then the
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: first floor. Because like in sort of Europe, the first
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: floor is the first floor off of the ground. So
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: you'd have ground floor, first floor, second floor. But anyway,
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: the very top floor, that was the maid's quarters and
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: the middle floor was where the bedrooms were. So you
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: had the master bedroom, Abby's dressing room, the guest room,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: Lizzie's room, Emma's room. Now the weird thing about this is,
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: there's no hallway upstairs like I don't know if he
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: was trying to save money on hallway space or whatever
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: but like all the rooms kind of lead into each
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: other which is I don't know I find that really
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: creepy and weird that someone can just walk into your
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: room from their room and there were like a front
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and a back staircase so like one staircase led up
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: to the master bedroom And the other staircase led up
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: to Emma and Lizzie's rooms. So effectively, if you wanted to,
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: you could quite easily avoid somebody if they stayed in
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: the opposite side of the floor to you, if you
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: managed to lock a door. Downstairs, it was like the
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: kitchen and living area. And then there was a basement.
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: And the basement was where the flushing toilet was. Now,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: the flushing toilet is the only piece of plumbing in
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: that house.
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: Like, that's it.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: So there wasn't water, access to water. There was no
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: washroom upstairs or anything like that.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: You just had a loo.
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: Which, you know, is better than an outhouse or a
• 17:16
  Speaker 1: hole in the ground or a latrine pit. But still, like,
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: most people who were of their social class at the time.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: They had running water in their house.
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: They had gas heating and gas lighting. The Bordens did not. Like,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: he didn't see the point in wasting money on it.
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: Because apparently light, heat and cleanliness are too expensive.
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: What?
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Andrew, now, come on. Now, Andrew also didn't like spending
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: money on leisurely things. So they're staying in this cold,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: weird fucking house down by the river. They're close at
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: the bottom of the hill. The people of their social standing,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: the wealthy residents of the higher society, so on and
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: so forth, So, like, the wealthy residents, the, you know,
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: the higher society, the native Yankee Massachusettsians, that's... What do
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Massachusetts people call themselves? Like, you've got, like, Floridians for
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: Florida and New Yorkers for New York. What do Massachusetts
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: people call themselves?
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: So they, all the rich folk, effectively.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: They all lived up on the hill, you know, away from, like,
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: the businesses and the textile mills and all that. And
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: the Bordens, they still lived down at the bottom of
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: the hill. And because of where they lived, a lot
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: of the people in their neighbourhood and the surrounding neighbourhoods
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: were immigrants. So you had lots of poor or working
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: class immigrants, quite a lot of them like Catholic immigrants
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: from like Portugal and Ireland and things like that. And
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: they were all in this sort of the basin of
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: the town effectively. So when Lizzie and Emma were growing up,
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: there's Things that should have happened with them because of
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: their social standing was like they should have had like
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: cotillions and coming out parties and in order for them
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: to have worthy suitors and to be married off, you know, well.
• 19:15
  Speaker 1: It's kind of the thing they did back then. Especially
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: in the Victorian era, like that's what women did. Especially
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: high society women. They found husbands.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: But Andrew, he really.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Wasn't interested in this. He wasn't into socialising. He wasn't into,
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: you know, spending the money on like outfits for like
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: balls and galas and doing all that kind of stuff.
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: So the girls grew up fairly isolated and the majority
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: of their social events revolved around their church. It's like
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: that's where all their extracurriculars came from. So Lizzie, more
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: so than Emma... becomes very involved in, like, you know,
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: all this stuff to do with the Central Congressional Church.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: And she is well involved. So, like, Lizzie, she's a
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: part of the Women's Christian Temperance Union, the Ladies' Fruit
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: and Flower Mission, she's the Secretary-Treasurer of, like, the Christian
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Endeavour Society... So Lizzie, she's like really involved in like
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: church activities, organisations and events. Because that's the only social
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: life these girls get. This is it. Like Lizzie, for
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: a good while, Lizzie's even a Sunday school teacher. Because
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: they have no other outlet. They have nowhere else to go.
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: And they're in this really weird position because... So the
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: people in their social rank, they're not fraternising with them.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: They're not meeting with them because they're not really in
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: that peer group. So they're like cut off from them.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: And the people that they live with, the working class
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: immigrants that are surrounding them, like they're not their peers either.
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: And so there's no real connection with them because let's
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: face it, they're not going to trust this wealthy fucking family.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Because like this wealthy family doesn't belong with them. Like
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: they're not their peers. So the Borden sisters are, for
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: the most part, ostracized from most facets of society. And, like,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: we don't know if Andrew was aware that he was
• 21:10
  Speaker 1: doing this to his daughters, or even if he knew
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: but just didn't care, or he was just so convinced
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: of his own convictions that he just couldn't falter from that.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Straight down the line, he had a plan, he wasn't
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: going to deviate from it. Now, we do know that
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Lizzie managed to have, like, at least one friend, but
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: even so. But for the most part, the sisters just
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: had each other. Now, as you can.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: Guess, there's already.
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: quite a bit of tension in this household and the
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: shit really hits the fan when Abby's sister is about
• 21:44
  Speaker 1: to be evicted so like she half owned her house
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: or she was for whatever reason she was going to
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: be evicted she was going to be homeless she was
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: going to be left with nothing destitute nyada and Andrew
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: decides all right that's my wife's sister I should probably
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: step up to the plate and Andrew buys half of
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: the house right makes sure she can't be evicted sorts
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: her out right And this really pisses the Borden sisters
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: off because Andrew, the notorious penny pincher, who would not
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: buy them a house, somewhere for them to live, allow
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: them their own freedom. His own daughters, who were forced
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: to live in a cold, creaky, dark, gloomy, crickety house
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: with weird adjoining rooms and no running water. He goes
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: off and buys his wife's.
• 22:36
  Speaker 2: Sister A house?
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Now to say they're mad is an understatement. They're fucking livid. Now,
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: so in order to resolve the situation, Andrew sells them
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: a house for a dollar. It's a rental property. It's like,
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: it was his father's house and it was actually the
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: first house that he and his first wife Sarah had
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: lived in. But it's currently like a rental property and
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: he gives it to the girls so that they can
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: have it as like a rental income. So they can
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: have it, so they have their own income. But for
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: the Borden sisters, it's not enough. That bridge has been
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: burned and it's just not good enough. And I feel
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: like the person who goes, hey, here's the house your
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: mother died in, shouldn't really be up for any father
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: of the year awards. Now, and it's after this event
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: that Lizzie just flat out stops calling Abby mother and
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: just starts calling her Mrs.
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: Borden.
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: Like, this is the person that for basically all her life,
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: she has referred to as mother. And after this incident, she's, like,
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: disconnecting herself from this. And it's also from this point
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: that the... So not only does Lizzie just stop calling
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: her mother altogether, her and Emma just stop eating. Like,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: the family stops eating meals together. Like, they would avoid, like,
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: being together and having to be in each other's company
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: as much as possible. So... Andrew and Abby, they would
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: eat their meals together, and then Emma and Lizzie would
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: eat their meals together. Like, they would avoid sort of.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: Being together.
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: The Bordens were not the only people in the household.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: At some point over the next year, their maid Maggie leaves,
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and she is replaced with a 20-something-year-old Irish immigrant, Bridget Sullivan.
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: So in 1888, Bridget joins the Borden household. Now, this
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: wasn't Bridget's first rodeo because she had been a maid to,
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: you know, other wealthy people of the area. And actually,
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: when she was hired by the Bordens, it was kind
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: of like a step down for her because, quote-unquote, unfashionable houses, like,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: she'd had to work in. But conveniently, the Borden house was, like,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: four streets over from, like, the Irish contingent in Falls River.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So Bridget joins the household and... Everybody in the household,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: kind of xenophobic, apart from Abby, actually. So every single
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: member of the Borden household calls Bridget Maggie. Which, I'm
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: sure you can guess if you've been listening, is not
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: her fucking name.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Her name is Bridget.
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: Maggie is the name of their old maid. So Emma, Lizzie, Andrew,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: they're all calling her Maggie. And Abby is the only
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: one who calls her by her actual fucking name. So
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: Bridget's really important, actually. The majority of what we know
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: about the Borden household, we know because of Bridget's testimony. Like,
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: kind of because she was one of the few people
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: alive to tell the story until she didn't really have
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: anything to lose by talking about it.
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: So 1890 rolls around.
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: A month before her 30th birthday, Lizzie Borden embarked on
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: a 19-week grand tour of Europe. Now, this was very
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: much like a done thing at the time. chaperoned like
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: young men and women, would.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Travel to Europe.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: The ticket was effectively a birthday present from her father,
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: which is nice because it shows he's not entirely clueless
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: about the world. So that was one of the two
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: presents she received from her dad. The first being the
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: ticket for the tour. And the second was a seal
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: skin cake. This was very much the thing of the time.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: They would be chaperoned, young men and women. They would
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: travel to Europe from the Americas. If you were an
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: unmarried woman, the fuck were you travelling to Europe alone?
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: That wasn't happening.
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: That's just.
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: That's a scandal waiting to happen. So Lizzie goes on
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: her travels and she's joined with... Lizzie had four companions
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: plus a chaperone for this trip. Two of the companions
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: were her cousins, her Borden cousins, Carrie and Anna.
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: The other two.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: not sure they're definitely part of the same church group
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: which is how these people sort of knew each other
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: really spend.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: Time together and.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: The only way they had known each other was via
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: the central congregational church and their chaperone was a falls
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: river high school teacher and see this trip lizzie was
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: in her fucking element she loved this trip and she
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: loved the fact that she got to live the high
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: life as well as the fact that she got to
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: travel and see places like she landed in liverpool We
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: also know that she went to Ireland because she was
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: in Palarno Castle. She was in Scotland, England, Netherlands, Germany, Switzerland, Italy,
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: Monte Carlo and France.
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: Like, they did a full fucking trip.
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: And we know that she got to so many places
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: because she took, was it 168 photos? When she gets
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: back from the trip, she's like... And, like, she gets
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: them developed and she puts them into these albums.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Like, she.
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: loved this. She loved Galavant and across Europe. She loved
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: going to museums and art and seeing poetry and hymns
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: and getting to enjoy this, like, fancy lifestyle that she
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: felt she deserved because her cousins had it.
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: Why shouldn't she?
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: Because all of our travelling companions are, like, super fucking rich.
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: They're incredibly wealthy. They are travelling first class. There is
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: no expense spared. To the point that Lizzie actually has to, like, request...
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: extra money sent. She's like, wire me some cash because
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: things are getting tough.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: But like, Lissy really fucking loved this.
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: This was the highlight of her life. She just enjoyed
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: this time. Like, she loved this trip so much that
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: when she was travelling back to America, like, she was
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: full of melancholy.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Lissy didn't want to go home.
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: She didn't want to go back to Fall River or
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: And back to that cramped house at the bottom of
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: the hill. And Lizzie tells her cousins that she's regretting
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: going home because of the juxtaposition between how amazing and
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: awesome this fucking trip was compared to how unhappy her
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: home was. And when she gets back from her trip,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: she has all these photos. But she took her photos
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: and she had them developed and she had them put
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: into two large photo albums. And she would show them
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: off and she would tell people about them. She was
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: so happy. And she was so happy when she got
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: to talk about her trip.
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: She really loved this.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: She had a taste of what her life could be like.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: And also, like, when she got back, she ends.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Up changing rooms with Emma. So, like, Lizzie used to have, like,
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: the smallest room, like, the darkest room in the house.
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: And she ends up switching with Emma, so Emma ends
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: up in the dark wee room. And she gets the
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: slightly bigger one. So in 1891, there's a burglary at
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: the Borden house. And it happens in the middle of
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: the day because, you know, in the past... People were
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: too trustworthy. They would just leave their doors open. But seriously,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: lock your goddamn door. Like, I don't care who you are,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: lock your door during the day. At night also, but
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: during the day too because people should not just be
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: allowed to walk freely into your house without your consent.
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: So yeah, there's a break-in and somebody makes away with
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: like cash and jewellery. Unsurprisingly, somebody broke into the Borden
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: home thinking, oh, he's a rich fella. I wonder if
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: he's got any money.
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: At his house.
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: Which, to their credit, he absolutely fucking did. There was
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: money in the house and there was jewellery.
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, somebody broke in, stole it, fucked off.
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: And because, you know, they don't want to get fucking
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: burgled again, the Bordens decide to lock all of the
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: outside doors. Just to make sure that nobody breaks in
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: and steals their shit again. So go forward a year,
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: we're in 1892, and that's where all this shit goes down.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: So 32-year-old Lizzie, she decides if she can't have friends,
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: she's gonna have pigeons. So Lizzie, she builds a roost
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: for pigeons in her barn. So at some point, like
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: May or June, her dad decides that he has to
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: kill the pigeons because he's convinced that kids are going
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: to break in and try and hunt them because that
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: is so much worse than him killing them. Now we
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: do not know the exact method of aviary assassination. We
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: do know that he somehow ripped their heads off. Whether
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: he did this, I don't know, manually or used a
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: tool of some kind, we just don't fucking know, alright?
• 31:27
  Speaker 3: We don't know.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: All we know is that he killed some fucking pigeons
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: for a shitty reason, if any reason at all. In
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: July 1892, there's this massive disagreement in the Borden household.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: What that disagreement was, we have no fucking clue.
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: It is so bad that Lizzie and Emma say fuck
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: this for a game of soldiers and get the hell
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: out of Dodge. Both Emma and Lizzie Gawny. Extended vacation.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: So they fuck off out of Fall River and they
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: go all the way to New Bed. So they both leave.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: And then Lizzie returns back to Fall River. But before
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: going back to the family home, she actually rooms in
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: a boarding house for a couple of days before heading back. Like,
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: instead of going straight home after this trip, she's like,
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I'm just going to go stay in this house.
• 32:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks. Keg. So she comes back.
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: So she's back and Emma's still the fuck away. Visiting
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: somebody who we don't know. We know that she's easy
• 32:30
  Speaker 1: to contact, but like... So they left together, but Lizzie
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: comes back alone without her, you know, mother figure for
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: some unfathomable reason. So August rolls around and this may
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: surprise some of you, but August in the summer is
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: pretty bloody hot. There's a lot of chass around. On
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: the 1st of August, the Bordens decide to eat some swordfish.
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: Because apparently, eating day-old, tepid swordfish that has not been
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: in any way refrigerated on a sweltering hot fucking day
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: is a really good idea. So they all eat the swordfish. Mmm,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: room temperature seafood. Scrumptious. Woohoohoo. you're going to be shocked,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: but they all suffer food poisoning. Pretty bad food poisoning, right?
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: It is coming out of both ends. They are just,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: it's not good. Now let's bear in mind, in this
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: house in which all of the rooms are connected, and
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: there is only one working fucking toilet, that there are
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: at least four people who have absolutely no control over
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: their sphincter or their gag reflex. Now, Like in my head,
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: there's like two scenarios going on. It's either a battle
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: royale to the water closet or everybody is just like
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: bent over a bedpan and a bucket.
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: Like there's just.
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: So Abby, she's been sick. So Abby, she's been puking
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: her guts up and probably chitting some out. So Abby's
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: freaking out.
• 34:03
  Speaker 3: It's coming out of her at both ends.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: But she's convinced that she doesn't actually have food poisoning,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: but rather she's been poisoned. So she gets a doctor
• 34:12
  Speaker 1: to come see her. and check her over. And the
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: doctor checks her out and stuff, and he asks her questions,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: and then he goes, Yeah, no, I don't think it's poison.
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I think it's more this old, warm fish that you ate.
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: Probably.
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: What I find really funny is, like, when the doctor
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: comes to visit, and he checks her abbey and stuff,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: when he offers to, like, give Andrew Borden a once-over,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: he's like, fucking not. Do not fucking touch me with
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: your doctor-y hand. He gets, like, so mad and angry
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: he's like I'm not sick I'm fine and he's like
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: when he's clearly like not fine because mate it's coming
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: at you at both ends this is the time where
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: you go hey doc help Jesus I mean if there's
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: ever a time where you are in fact ill when
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: all of the fluid and sustenance is exiting your body
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: from every available orifice you're sick The next day, the
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: family decide to eat some mutton stew. Because, you know,
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: a thick, heavy stew is the best meal for the
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: middle of summer. So they all eat this mutton stew
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: and they all feel like shit again. Later that day,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: Lizzie goes to visit her friend, her only pal actually,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: Alice Russell. She goes and visits her friend Alice and
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: she's like, I'm really worried. I think someone's got it
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: out for my father.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: You know, he's rich. He's got all this stuff. I
• 35:42
  Speaker 2: think someone's trying to kill him. I think someone's got
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: it out for him. And Alice is like, really?
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: You sure?
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: He just kind of owns a couple of mills, but
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: all right. You do you, Lizzie, you do you.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Pretty sure you're going to be okay.
• 35:55
  Speaker 5: And it's also on this day that Lizzie's uncle, maternal uncle,
• 35:59
  Speaker 5: John Vinicum Morse, comes to stay with the Bordens.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: He's there to meet with Andrew.
• 36:04
  Speaker 5: And discuss some sort of business stuff and money things, manly,
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: manly money things.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: So he's going to be staying in the guest room
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: for a couple of days. So the family and Bridget,
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: they've all been eating this mutton stew again. And what
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: I'm going to assume is complete shock and surprise for
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: all of you. They get sick again and they all retire.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: Okay. So that is Andrew, Abby, Lizzie and the uncle.
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: And of course, Bridget the maid.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: They all eat the stew. They all feel like shit.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe don't eat unrefrigerated meat. I mean, it's not
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: like they had refrigerators. And I doubt, like, Andrew Borden's
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: going to be forking out for an icebox.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: He's not.
• 36:52
  Speaker 2: It's fine. It's fine.
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: So there's Abby Borden, Andrew Jackson Borden, Leslie Borden, John
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: Morse and Bridget Sullivan. They all have the meat sweats
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: and the mutton chucks and they all.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: Retire for the night.
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: And as they slumber, each person unaware that the events
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: that are to follow the very next day will be
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: a day of infamy in dark history.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: So, we recap, probably best. Lizzie and her sister Emma
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: are in their thirties. They're still living at home with
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: their father. They have gone way past spinster and are
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: now into level thornback. which, let's face it, much cooler name.
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: There have been disagreements over the years in the Borden household,
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: mainly due to the fact that Andrew Jackson Borden, their father,
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: is hella rich, but still doesn't have, you know, plumbing
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: or heating in the house, which seems like kind of
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: a necessity, one could argue. And of course, there's the
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: fact that instead of ensuring that they had better lives...
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: What he did was buy his sister-in-law a house, which
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: kind of arced the girls a wee bit. When all
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: the girls wanted to do was move away from the
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: industrial sort of area that they were in and live
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: a luxurious life up on the hill. Also, in addition, furthermore,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Andrew's second wife, who he'd been married to for like
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: 30 odd years, Abby, who just so happens to be
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: the only person in the household... who calls their maid
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: by her actual name because apparently she's the only one
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: who bothered to learn it. In this little mixed family,
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: there were problems bubbling and they rose to the surface.
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: Big disagreements were had and the girls had to go
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: on a wee break for reasons that we don't actually have.
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: They go away, Lizzie comes back and the family start
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: getting sick. Their maternal uncle, biological maternal uncle John, he
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: comes to visit. doing some businessy stuff with Andrew. And
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: then the whole household mysteriously starts getting sick. And this
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: is where we left off. The next day, Andrew, the uncle,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Abby and Bridget, the maid, all eat mutton for breakfast. Why? Oh,
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: you know, we think we're being poisoned and we've all
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: been sick after eating this. Let's have more. On a
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: scale of zero to invading Russia in the winter, I
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: feel like eating day-old unrefrigerated meat on one of the
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: warmest days of the year. Considering that you believe you
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: are being poisoned... probably is like a midway point. So
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: after breakfast, Andrew and John, they retire to the sitting
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: room and they're getting ready for the day. Abby starts
• 39:59
  Speaker 1: doing all like the daily chores and Bridget goes into
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: the garden to puke because there's nowhere else to go.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: There's not a kitchen sink. Where are you going to
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: chuck up?
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Like, you know what I mean?
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: So John Morris leaves.
• 40:10
  Speaker 1: Lizzie gets up and has like a light breakfast of
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: cookies and tea. I would call them biscuits, but like
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: in America, they're cookies. So she has like this really
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: light breakfast. Because, you know, she doesn't want to eat
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: day-old mutton for breakfast. So while Lizzie's having her breakfast,
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: Andrew heads off to start his day. You know, he's
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: going to do business stuff, but he's also going to
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: post some mail. Including letters that Lizzie gave him for
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: him to post for her.
• 40:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's on his way anyway. May as well.
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: After Andrew leaves, Abby asks Bridget to go clean some windows. Bridget,
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: who is, you know, quite literally throwing up in their garden,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: is like... Okay, I mean, it's incredibly hot and I've
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: just spent half the morning chucking up into the petunias.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: But fine, of course I'll clean the windows. Absolutely. So,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: Bridget is outside washing windows and Lizzie, she's apparently ironing napkins.
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: Because that's a thing people do. And Abby goes up
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: to clean the guest bedroom, which is where Uncle John,
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: John Morris, is staying. Now, cleaning the guest room, that
• 41:20
  Speaker 1: was usually, like, Lizzie and Emma's job. But one, Emma's
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: not fucking there. And Lizzie, maybe she thought Lizzie was
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: too sick to do it, hymns to say. But she's
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: up there. And as Abby is cleaning that guest room,
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: she gets axed. She takes a hatchet to the neck
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: and head 19 times. She gets a proper whack. So
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: Abby is facing her killer at the time of the attack.
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: The manner in which.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: She's hit, like it's quite possible she was on her knees.
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: She gets whacked right on the side of the head
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: with a hatchet, getting her like just above the ear.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: And as she falls, the killer just keeps like whacking her,
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: getting her in the head and neck. So Andrew, he
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: comes back from his morning walk between like half 10, 11.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: He goes to put his key in the front door.
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: But the door's locked, isn't it? Because ever since the burglary,
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: they've been keeping the doors locked. So he shouts for Maggie,
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: Bridget Sullivan. So she goes in and she unlocks the door.
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: And as she's doing that, she swears.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: She curses.
• 42:33
  Speaker 1: And whatever shit she said, it made Lizzie laugh. And Maggie,
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Bridget Sullivan, the maid, and Sullivan, she testified that Lizzie
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: was at the top of the stairs when she'd had
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: this muffled laugh. So yeah, Andrew Jackson Borden, he is
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: back from his morning walk.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And he decides he's going to take a wee nap
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: on the couch. It's been a busy day.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: He's not feeling well. He's going to have a wee
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: lounge on the lawn. Lizzie says that at this point
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: she goes out to the barn to look for fishing weights.
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: Even though she hasn't gone fishing in like several years.
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: But yeah, now is the day she decides she needs
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: fishing weights. So off she pops.
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: And while she goes out, Bridget Sullivan, the maid, she
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: heads up to bed. She's going to go in her, like,
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: top floor, attic, servants' quarters place. Because she's like.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Fuck this for a game of soldiers. I'm going to
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: have a lie down.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Because it's hot, she feels like shit, and she just
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: wants to sleep it off.
• 43:33
  Speaker 2: Plus, you know, Andrew Borden is napping. She can nap too.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: Why not?
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: Live your best life. So off she goes.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: And so while Andrew is having his nap, having a
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: wee nap on the couch, plus he's in his 60s,
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: you know, all people sleep more.
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: They just do. Like cats.
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: And while he's trying to catch his 40 winks, he
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: gets an axe to the face. Attacked with a hatchet.
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: And he's struck like 10 or 11 times in total.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: His face is fucking annihilated.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of rage.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: Whoever did this wasn't holding back. But by waiting for
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: him to be, like, dozing, this was definitely the work
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: of someone who did not want him fighting back and
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: also wanted to pulverise his whole fucking face into nothingness.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: So just after 11, Bridget, she's upstairs having a nap.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: Lizzie shouts for her. She's shouting for Maggie. She's like,
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: come quick, father's dead. Somebody came in and killed him.
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: And the maid's like, okay, fuck, that's not good.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: So first things first.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: She sends her across the street to Dr.
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: Bowen, you know, the family doctor. But he's not there.
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: Because he's not there, Lizzie tells her to go get
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: a friend from down the street. Which is kind of
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: weird to me, because, like, which is, you know, you
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: can understand someone being panicked, but there's a fucking doctor
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: that lives next door to her. Like, there's an Irish
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: immigrant doctor next door. And there was a French-Canadian doctor just, like,
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: round the back as well. So there were other doctors
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: really fucking close. And she's like, nope, keep going to
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: this other person. Like, ignore these guys. Eventually, they do
• 45:15
  Speaker 1: manage to get, like, Dr. Bowen. And somehow, someone does
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: manage to actually inform.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: The police this happened.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: And so, the first thing they do is send one officer. Listen,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: I understand not having, like, a fully-fledged Like, police force
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: that's used to dealing with murders and shit. Like, they're
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: probably dealing with, like, town drunks and missing cats and burglaries.
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: And the like. You know, smaller, smaller crimes. But they
• 45:44
  Speaker 2: send one guy.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: And at this point, and he's, like, trying to talk
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: to Lizzie.
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: But Lizzie is on drugs.
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: Her doctor has doped her the fuck up.
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: Like, she is on morphine. So much morphine.
• 46:00
  Speaker 2: So Dr.
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: Bowen, in his infinite wisdom, he decided that, you know,
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: he needed to calm Lizzie's nerves. And instead of using, like,
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: a sedative, he's like, morphine is definitely the.
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: Way to do it. Morphine.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: So Lizzie is on morphine and she's being interviewed by
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Deputy Marshal Fleet.
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: And he's like, right, okay, here's your dad. There's the maid.
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: There's you.
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: Your sister's away.
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: Where's Mrs.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: Borden?
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: Like, where's your mother?
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: And Lizzie's response, I swear to God, Not exactly an
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: inconspicuous one, was she's not my mother. She's my stepmother. Like,
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: she corrects him, like, straight away. But she tells him, oh, well,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: she's not here. She got a note from a sick friend,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: so she had to go visit her.
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: She's not here.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: Don't worry about it.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: But then her story changes, and she's like, oh, wait, no.
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: She came back, so she should be here. So then
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: he's like, maybe we should go look for her? And
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: so they start spreading out, and they go looking for,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: you know, Mrs. Borden. And as Bridget is going up
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: the stairs, once she gets to a certain stair, she
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: screams because she sees the.
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: Body of Abby Borden.
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: The way that this works, they actually tested this out
• 47:13
  Speaker 1: with a bunch of detectives and stuff at one point.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: There was one step on the whole staircase that you
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: could see a body lying on the guest room floor. Granted,
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: they did do it with somebody who was a few
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: inches to a foot taller than Abby, but that's neither
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: here nor there. So, like, from this one particular spot,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: you could see, like, the body. But, like, only from
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: this one step, depending on, well, depending on your height.
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: From Bridget's height, you could see it from this one step. Like,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: from another, like, taller person, it would have been the
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: step below.
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: You know, like, that sort of way.
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Just because of the way this weird layout worked, because
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: all the rooms kind of interconnected... So, like, a telegram
• 47:55
  Speaker 1: gets sent out to, you know, notify Emma of what's
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: going on. So, they find the bodies and they're like, okay,
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: what are we going to do? They decide to get
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: the doctors to perform post-mortems on the dining room table.
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: And they do this autopsy and they determine that because
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Abby's blood is more, like, coagulated than Andrew's. Now, if
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: you listened to the Elizabeth Bathory episode, you would know
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: that blood coagulates pretty quickly. Like, so it would be
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: more stickier and clipperier and harder.
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: Than, say, Andrew's. Especially when, like, the day is so hot.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: So that's one of the reasons why they were able
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: to determine that Abby was definitely killed before Andrew. Because
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: of coagulation.
• 48:43
  Speaker 2: Science.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: So I was looking at the crime scene photos, which
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: is something no reasonable sane person should do.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: Like, it's not good for you. to do that.
• 48:54
  Speaker 3: Like, don't do that.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: What I found pretty interesting is like, you'd think that
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: being axed in the head, like multiple trauma wounds, would
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: be very bloody. There's not a lot of blood at
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: the scene of the crime. Like, there's a bit, obviously,
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: but there's not a lot of spatter. So anyway, a
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: telegram is sent out for Emma and she comes back.
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, so there were a fuck ton of people
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: coming in and out of this house. Like, right away, like,
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: neighbours are coming in, and they're, like, tidying up and
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: getting stuff ready and, like, cleaning. There are neighbours coming
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: in to help clean up the blood, which nowadays is like, ah,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: but back then, it's not as if they had, like,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: the forensics to deal with it anyway.
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: Mr and Mrs Borden, their, you.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: Know, autopsied corpses are in the house, on the dining
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: room table, and Emma and Lizzie stay in the house. Like,
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: they sleep there. I think Lizzie's friend comes and stays
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: with them as well. Her friend Alice comes over.
• 49:57
  Speaker 2: But, like, what the actual fuck?
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, I'm just going to have a nap here
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: next to the mutilated corpses of my father and stepmother. What? What?
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Is that not ringing any alarm bells for anybody?
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I don't seem fucking weird.
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: No? Anyway, back to the investigation. So, the police officers,
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: they're going round the house and they're looking for stuff.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And Lizzie, like, points out, like, a hatchet in the barn.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: And there's, like, this little hatchet. And it's covered in ash.
• 50:32
  Speaker 2: Like, it's dirty.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: And the handle is broken. And the police are like, yep,
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: this seems like the murder weapon. Like they think that
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: it was used, it was cleaned, and then it was
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: like put in ash to dry it or cover up
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: blood or something. So Alice Russell, she comes and stays
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: with the two sisters in the house. And John Morse,
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: he's staying there too, he's still there. He decides not
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: to stay in the guest room, which is, you know, valid.
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: But he doesn't like go to any of the other
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: rooms either. Like he could have had the master bedroom. Like,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: apparently he was sleeping in the guest room in the attic, but, like,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: I couldn't see a guest room in the attic. I
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: thought it was just the maid's room, but, um, apparently
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: he was up there. So the next day, everybody's, like,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: going in and out of the house. Like, there's police,
• 51:16
  Speaker 1: there's neighbours, so on and so forth.
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: It's like the police are searching the house, and they
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: find this.
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: They call it a slop pail, and it's basically this
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: bucket with bloody rags in it, right? And they're like, Lizzie,
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: what is this?
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: And she has to.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Explain to these old stuffy fucking Victorian men that they're
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: her menstruation rags. So yeah, they find the hatchet. So
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: they do like this big thing. And like everyone and
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: their granny has been in and out of this house.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: So they find the hatchet. Later on that day, the
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: mayor of Fall River visits Lizzie and is like, hey,
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: just so you know, you're the main suspect. Which I'm
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: sure was super fun. The next day, Alice sees Lizzie
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: burn this blue corduroy dress and she's like, that's weird.
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: That's suspicious. Nobody knows if Lizzie was wearing that kind
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: of dress that day. So anyway, there's this inquest and
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: she is on all of the drugs. And so they
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: have this inquest and she's questioned and she's on all
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: this morphine. And everything she says basically contradicts with itself.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: And she didn't answer questions properly. even if answering them
• 52:31
  Speaker 1: would have been better for her. She was, like, everything from, like,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: when her father returned home, like, what were you doing?
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: I was reading a magazine.
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: Wait, no, I was ironing.
• 52:40
  Speaker 1: Or, no, I wasn't ironing. I was actually coming down
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: the stairs. Like, she said that she helped her father
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: take off his boots and put his slippers on so
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: he could nap. But, like, he still had his boots
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: on when he was sleeping? So basically, after this inquest,
• 52:56
  Speaker 1: Lizzie is arrested and is sent to this prison eight
• 53:00
  Speaker 1: miles north because there's no there's no ladies prison in
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: Falls River there isn't one so she gets sent up
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: to this other prison and like she is found guilty
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: of three counts of murder one the murder of Andrew
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Jackson Borden two Abby Borden and three Abby and Andrew
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: together like I don't know why but like that's a
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: thing so yeah she ends up in this jail in
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: Taunton because there's there's no women's prison in Fall River
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: so she's she's up there So Lizzie's arrest, it basically
• 53:32
  Speaker 1: ignites this whole fucking moment.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: Like a national moment.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: So like women's groups like all over the country, they.
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: Start rallying for Lizzie.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: Because they're like, this is a good Christian woman. She's
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: of high society. Like even the Falls River, like people
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: from the hill, they're like, you can't do.
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: This to our girl.
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: She's one of us.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: She wouldn't do that. The suffrage movement got behind her
• 53:58
  Speaker 1: as well. Because they argued that she didn't have a
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: jury of her peers, because obviously the entire jury is men.
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: So if there were no women in the jury, she
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: definitely couldn't have a jury of her peers. So in 1893,
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: because of just all of this noise that's.
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: Being made, there's a new trial, you know?
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: Because you've got all of these sort of women's movement
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: and women's leagues kind of involved, but you still also
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: have the idea.
• 54:27
  Speaker 2: That a respectable.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: women would not be capable of doing something so egregious
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: and aggressive and vile. You know?
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: There's another trial.
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Emma, who, because Lizzie has been jailed, because she's been
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: tried for murder, Emma is the sole beneficiary to, like,
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: the Borden fortune, or Andrew's fortune, because Lizzie's been jailed.
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: And she uses this money to get the best fucking
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: lawyer money can buy. He is like the Billy Flynn
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: of lawyers.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Give him the old razzle-dazzle.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: Razzle-dazzle him.
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: And he decides to have Lizzie appear in court very demure.
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: It is, at this point, it's like high art. You know,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: he has her in very expensive, very beautiful black clothing.
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: She's in mourning. He has her show up with like
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: mourning flowers. Also during this time.
• 55:18
  Speaker 3: Period, flowers are really important. Like it's very much a thing.
• 55:21
  Speaker 3: So she's got her mourning flowers.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: You know, there's a point during the trial where they
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: show like the skulls of Andrew and Abby. And when
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: they are, he, like, dramatically chucks them up on a
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: table and opens it up. Lizzie, she promptly faints.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: And this is, like, a massive, like, spectacle.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Because the reason the skulls are there is they were
• 55:42
  Speaker 1: checking the size of the hatchet to the size of
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: the wounds. So there was a reason for the skulls
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: to be there, but it all leaned into this whole, like,
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: drama of the trial. So at this trial as well,
• 55:55
  Speaker 1: Lizzie does not, like, testify Not at all.
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: Not in her defence.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: None of that.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: And the judge rules that her initial testimony from her initial, like, inquest.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: Is not admissible.
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Another thing they don't allow.
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: Is a local pharmacist had, like, come forward and said, um,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't think it was, like, odd at the time,
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: but then afterwards I thought, bit weird, that Lizzie had
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: tried to buy prussic acid, which is, like, very poisonous,
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: and you need a prescription for that. And, like, her
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: reason for buying it was, like, I need it to
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: clean this seal skin cape. I do it all the time,
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: even though, like, that's not what it's used for. But, like,
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: that seemed admissible because they weren't poisoned, so there was
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: no reason to have.
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: Any mention of poison.
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: And they bring up, like, Alice Russell noticing, like, the
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: dress being burned. And Emma and the dressmaker, like, state, like,
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: that was just a thing they did. they both, like,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: attest to this. Like, oh yeah, we just burn dresses
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: when they're no good because there was paint on it,
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: so we had to do that. And so, like, all
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: these other suspects are, like, brought forward and stuff, like, including, like,
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Uncle John. What's weird about this trial as well is
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: they don't try and, like, blame anybody else. Like, there
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: was an underlying tone of maybe an immigrant came in
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: and killed them because there was another, like, hatchet job,
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: I think, a few days before the trial had happened.
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: And because it was a Portuguese immigrant who, like, committed
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: the crime, and the crimes.
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: Were eerily similar to the Borden murders.
• 57:28
  Speaker 1: It was, like, brought up again, even though this person
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: wasn't even in Fall River at the time of the
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: Borden murders.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: But anyway, like, Lizzie's.
• 57:36
  Speaker 1: Defence, they don't try and provide any other suspects. Emma
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: was aware of her friends. Uncle John Morse, he had, like,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: the weirdest but very airtight alibi about because he went
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: to visit relatives the relatives were like well he was
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: here but he was able to like remember the streetcar
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: number he was on because of the number on the
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: streetcar driver's hat and the reason he remembers this particular
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: streetcar is because there were.
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: Five priests on it i don't know how.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Difficult it is to ensure something so peculiar happens and
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: like the streetcar driver remembers the priest but he doesn't
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: remember john a wee shame it's a wee shame for
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: john But anyway, this is like a massive, massive thing.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: And it's a huge, just fucking sensationalist drama. And Lizzie
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: is painted as very much the demure lady, high society
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: lady who would never hurt. She's incapable of murdering. On
• 58:39
  Speaker 1: the 20th of June, 1893, trial is over and the
• 58:42
  Speaker 1: jury have to go deliberate. The judge sort of ends
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: the session, the trial, with... he does this like big
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: speech and he basically tells the jury, I'm not telling
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: you to say she's not guilty, but you know. So
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: he didn't exactly tell them to, you know, say not guilty,
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: but he told them to say not guilty. So anyway,
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: they go off, the jury, they chat for an hour
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: and a half and come back. And I think most
• 59:07
  Speaker 1: of that is just paperwork. Like they just go in
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: smoked some pipes while they waited and you know just
• 59:14
  Speaker 1: to make it seem like they took more effort than
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: they did come back out and they're like and you
• 59:18
  Speaker 1: know like there's not guilty the courtroom erupts into like
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: applause and cheers and like Lizzie's like I'm the happiest
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: woman in the And all of the support that she
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: had from, like, the high society folks, once she's back home,
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: that support kind of just, like, trickles away. So Emma
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: and Lizzie, they move into this massive, gorgeous new house
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: in Fall River, up on the hill, and Lizzie names
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: it Maplecroft, which, like, most people didn't name their houses
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: back then, but she was like, fuck it, fuck this,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: we're a game of soldiers, I'm naming my house.
• 59:59
  Speaker 3: They have.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 2: everything.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: They've got maids, housekeepers, coachmen, the whole shebang. And when
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: Lizzie moves in, she changes her name from Lizzie Andrew
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: Borden to Lisbeth A. Borden. I mean, it's not a
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: massive change, but you do you. The Borden sisters, they're just, like,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: living their best lives and Lizzie more so than Emma.
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 1: So while Emma was just happy to just kind of
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: chill out and exist, Lizzie was out hanging out with
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: like actors and shit who were not seen as like
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: nowadays like actors are like a big deal they're you
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: know they're the stars back then they were sort of
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: very low class they performed for you they served you
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: it was kind of seedy to hang out with actors
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: people of the stage and so like Emma does not
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: like these these actor people and Lizzie ends up having
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: this party in 1905 for is actress Nance O'Neill, who
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: is very much latched on to Lizzie, or Lizzie latched
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: on to her, him to say. And after this party,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: Emma is like, I'm done, I'm off. And she just leaves.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 1: She moves out, and the two sisters never see each
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: other again.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 3: Now, as Lizzie, she.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: Stays in Fall River, and she becomes this kind of
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: urban legend. Like, children sing rhymes about her, she's like
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: openly mocked. and like when she goes to church when
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: she goes to her normal seat in church no one
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: else sits around her it's like when you put a
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: magnet down and it repels all the other stuff like
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: that's what she's like it's like no one's around her
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: by 1927 lizzie is ill as fuck and she ends
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: up getting her gallbladder removed any any surgery someone had
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: to have pre-1960 is always going to be.
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: It's always going to end poorly.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: I don't care who you are, there's always a bad
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: side effect to it. So after getting her gallbladder removed,
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: she's really fucking sick. And she ends up dying of
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: pneumonia on June 1st, 1927.
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: And what's weird is like nine days later, nine days.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: Later, Emma Borden passes away from chronic nephritis in a
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: nursing home in New Hampshire. And both sisters were buried
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: side by side and the family plot in the Oak
• 1:02:28
  Speaker 1: Grove Cemetery in Fall River. So, like, in her will,
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden was worth $ 250, 000, which is worth over $ 5
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: million today. And because she owned, like, properties and had
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 1: shares in utilities and stuff like that, because she owned, like, properties, like,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: from rentals to, like, commercial places and had shares in utilities,
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 1: had loads of jewellery, Like, because she had all that,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: she was really well off. And she ends up leaving, like,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: in today's money, like, 600 grand to an animal rescue league.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: And then, like, another 10 grand to, like, ensure that
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: her father's grave is, like, maintained. And, like, her closest
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: friend and relative ends up with 125 grand. And then, like,
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: the rest of her relatives can end up with somewhere
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: between 20 to 100 grand. Like, it's all just spread
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: out to everybody.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: Like, just take the money.
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: So, like, over the years... A bunch of theories have
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: come out as to why Lizzie did it. I'm convinced
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Lizzie did it. The timeline makes sense. But the question
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: is why?
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 2: Was she greedy? Did she just want money?
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: Or was there something darker of it?
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing.
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 1: With any sort of scandal, any sort of massive event
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: that happens in a close-knit town like this, especially when
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: it becomes national news, there is always going to be
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: a why. Why did she do this? Why did someone
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 1: do this? Why were these two elderly people hacked to
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: death with a wee axe? It's a natural question. We
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: always want to know why somebody did a thing or
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 1: why a thing happened. We always want to look for
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: reasons and justifications, but sometimes there isn't one. So there
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: are theories of why Lizzie did it. And it goes
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 1: from one end of the spectrum to the other. Plus,
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 1: you know, we are kind of hung up on motive
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: as a general rule of thumb. But I firmly believe
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: that Lizzie did it, but that Emma is the mastermind
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 1: behind it. Because Lizzie was always trying. You know, she
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: was trying to be social. She was trying to have friends.
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: She was trying to go on adventures. Like, she was
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: constantly reaching out for something, but nothing was really coming
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: back for her. And the only constant, the only... love
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 1: and affection she really got in her life was from
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: her big sister, who was effectively a surrogate parent for her.
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: And as far as we know, Emma didn't really look
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: for anything else until Lizzie actually found a group of
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: friends that weren't within the right social class, but she
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: found people to connect with, to spend time with. And
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: she had parties, whether it was because she wanted to
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 1: have parties or because she was so desperate.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: To be cared for and to be wanted? We don't know.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: Hymns to say.
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 1: But, which I think is one of the more reasonable theories,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 1: you know, after years and years of just constantly being
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: an afterthought for not being given the life that they
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: felt they deserved, the sisters ensured they got.
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: The lives they deserved.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: Or that they believed they deserved. Also, from here on in,
• 1:05:48
  Speaker 1: the theories are going to get just a wee bit wackier.
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: Of course, there's the rumour that Emma and or Lizzie
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 1: had a suitor whom their father deemed less than worthy
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: of his daughter's hand. And as such, the only way
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 1: for them to be together was to get rid of him.
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: That also plays into the idea of why Emma didn't return,
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 1: because she was with her lover and not her family.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 1: Because she was with her lover at the time.
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: Of the murders.
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: Hmm, interesting.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: And it only gets more salacious from here, because the
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: rumour mouth keeps churning, and at one point, Lizzie is
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: whatever the female equivalent of balls deep is, in a
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: sea of men. Like, Lizzie was out there shagging this fella,
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: fucking that fella, blowing the other dude, like she was
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 1: getting her goods. The woman was swimming in a sea
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 1: of penises, like, alright. Which brings us, of course, to
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: the uncle theory. The bones of it is, Lizzie is
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: embroiled in an incestuous affair with her uncle and as such,
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: they plot the demise of the elderly Bordens together so
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: that they can get them out of the way and
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 1: seize their fortune. Uncle John manipulated Lizzie into murdering both
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 1: her father and her stepmother.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 2: And it was his.
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 1: Idea to make sure that Abbey got killed first to
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 1: ensure that the Borden daughters would receive the full inheritance
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: and not Abbey's family. which branches off into the uncle
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 1: with a suspiciously specific and airtight alibi. Lots of people
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: find it weird that he happened to remember the number
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 1: on the hat of the streetcar driver, who happened to
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 1: be carrying five priests. But, like, for all we know,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: the dude could have been, like.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 2: Super into streetcars, I'm just saying.
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: Or he could have been on the spectrum and one
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: of his things was remembering numbers and stuff.
• 1:07:46
  Speaker 2: Hems to say.
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 1: So he has this oddly ironclad alibi, but... Instead of
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: being with family, which he said, he was in fact
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: murdering the Borden.
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: For, like, money.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: Like, there's all these theories that Lizzie and Bridget were
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: in on it together. Lizzie was secretly a lesbian, and
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: she was caught by Abby doing the horizontal tango with
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: the maid. And the way this little theory goes is
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: that Bridget was not, in fact, going outside washing windows.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: But instead.
• 1:08:20
  Speaker 1: She was, uh, knoodling. Abby walked in on this scene
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: with Lizzie and Bridget together, knoodling, snuggling, stooping, knocking boots,
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: so on and so forth, and the discovery of such
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: a scandalous scene. Well, and it's the reason that Lizzie
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: and or Bridget grabbed a hatchet and attacked Abby. And there's, like,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: another theory that says that, you know, she was out
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 1: banging her way through Fall River and she just wanted
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: her freedom at that point driven by the power of
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 1: lust and stuff she wanted the money and so she
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: killed everybody And then you have the incest theory that
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 1: Andrew Borden abused his girls especially Lizzie and you know,
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: this was her retaliation.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: Abuse comes in many forms.
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: Now whether he was physically assaulting them or whether this
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: was just sort of a continued emotional Destruction or perhaps
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 1: even financial abuse, which still even right now isn't understood
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 1: to a great extent. Like, I think there definitely feels
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: like there's something there. I'm not discounting greed by any means,
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: but it definitely feels like there's something more sinister underlying.
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: Of course, mental illness has to have a seat at
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 1: the table. And it's been argued that maybe Lizzie was
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: in some sort of fugue state and she went and
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: just killed them but didn't realise she was doing it,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: or that she was perhaps schizophrenic and she had an episode.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: But it's weird that it wouldn't happen before or after. Like,
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: there was no... Like, to our knowledge, she never attacked
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: or assaulted anyone before or after the incident. Now that
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: we've covered that, of course, some people thought it was demons.
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 3: Demons?
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: Demons.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Possession.
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 6: The occult, spooky spirits, wiggly woos. Lizzie was possessed by
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 6: an evil spirit, or even a demon, who forced her
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 6: to slaughter her.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 2: Family against her will.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: But not the maid, because the spirits are part of
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: the proletariat. They're, like, super happy to kill off the
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: wealthy people.
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: But not the maid.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: She's a working class. We've got to leave her alone.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: Even demons have roles sometimes. Last but not least, pure...
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: unadulterated greed. Lizzie wanted the finer things in life. She
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: wanted to live the high life that she should have.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: She should have been born with a silver spoon in
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: her mouth, but her father always kept it just out
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 1: of arm's reach. She was sick of waiting. She wanted
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: her money and she wanted it now. However, there's always
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: the possibility that Lizzie is but a red herring, and
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: the real murder was committed by someone else.
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 2: Either Uncle John.
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: Emma, or a quote-unquote suspicious-looking man hanging outside the Borden house.
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 1: It's almost as if they lived at the bottom of
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 1: the hill, in a neighbourhood full of emigrant workers, near
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 1: textile factories and places of work, and other areas of commerce,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 1: and that people, as a general rule, tend to be around.
• 1:11:51
  Speaker 1: Either way, I am absolutely convinced that Lizzie Borden did
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: commit those murders. Whether she had an accomplice, or whether
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: she was pushed into it one way or the other,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: or if it was her own idea, we don't know.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: We don't.
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: And so, in a sea of ambiguity... Thus ends the
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 2: story of Lizzie Borden.
• 1:12:15
  Speaker 1: So, what did we learn today? We learned that if
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: you are rich enough, you can get away with murder.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, we already knew that, huh? Basically. We learned
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 1: that sisters are in fact doing it for themselves and
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: that quite probably Andrew Jackson Borden had it coming.
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 2: He had it coming.
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 1: He only had himself to blame. And if you liked
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: today's episode... feel free to rate and review 5 stars
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. I love your reviews so much.
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: I read every single one of them. Like, every single one.
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 1: So I actually have started the website. So I think
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 1: I might just screenshot and put up my favourites. I
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 1: haven't decided yet. I'm so tempted to take my favourites
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 1: and post them on the website. Because here's the thing.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 1: You are fucking fantastic. All of you.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: You're amazing.
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 1: And And I am so happy that you keep coming back,
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 1: listening week after week, or after an almost three-week hiatus
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 1: because of my health issues. But really, it means a lot.
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 1: But I'm really happy that you are still here. Or
• 1:13:24
  Speaker 1: if you're new, welcome! Hi! Now, of course, if you
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: want to get more of this history stuff, you can
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 1: follow me on TikTok, Twitter, and Instagram. HowDidWhatNowPod on everything,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: apart from Twitter, where I'm WhoDidWhatNowPD because there weren't enough characters.
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: Oh goodness, recommendation time. Watching. I am going to recommend
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: that you watch Obi-Wan Kenobi because it's so good. Also,
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 1: I'm a big Star Wars fan and it gives me
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 1: an excuse to go, hello there.
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: That's fucking Obi-Wan Kenobi. I love it.
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: Oh no, I actually started reading The Seven Husbands of
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Evelyn Hugo and it is.
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 2: Just, go read it, go read it, go read it,
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 2: go read it.
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: And listening I actually listened to this podcast and I
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: found it very interesting I was listening to American Hostage
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: with Jon Hamm it's sort of like I don't know
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: like a radio series like a podcast series a radio
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: play type thing ah it's so good it's so good
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: I really really enjoyed that one I really enjoyed it
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: because it's like historical but it's also like a wee
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: dramatization I was listening to it as I looked at
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: the whole world I was putting this basically world map
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: decal on my kid's bedroom wall. And I like to
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 1: listen to stuff when I'm doing physical things. It just
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: makes me feel better or it makes me work better
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: either way. So I was doing that. So those are
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: your recommendations this week. And with that, I shall bid
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: you adieu.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 2: Adios, au revoir, au revoir, my friends.
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 1: Bye bye.