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Beside Every Calling | Episode 16 | The Invisible Load Ministry Spouses Carry · Beside Every Calling

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Beside Every Calling, where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_03: If your date night has occasionally included a hospital stop, or your kids played Let's Baptize in the pool instead of Marco Polo, you understand this rhythm.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_03: Across every season, from little ones to leadership transitions to emptiness, we live beside the call while creating lives we love along the way.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_03: So please get comfortable and let's dive into today's episode.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_03: Hi friends, and welcome to Beside Every Calling, a safe space for those walking beside a calling where a life you love is formed beside the call and not lost within it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_03: Jill and I are really excited today because we're going to welcome Dr.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_03: Chris Adams to the podcast.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_03: Chris is an ordained minister, clinical psychologist, leadership coach, and one of the leading voices helping churches better understand the emotional and mental health of ministry leaders and their families.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_03: He serves as direct executive director of the mental health and church initiative at Biola University and has spent years researching what helps ministry leaders flourish, thrive, and stay healthy for the long haul.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_03: And I must say, Scott and I are friends with him.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_03: And I am so excited, not only for his friendship, to get to share this, but his knowledge is amazing.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_03: So Chris, welcome to Beside Every Calling.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, thank you, Debbie.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Such an honor to be with you.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_01: Really a privilege and uh so believe in what you're doing, the the folks that you're wanting to support and minister to are are underserved and sometimes invisible to many people.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_01: So this is a really important ministry that you're that you're doing.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm honored to be here.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_04: Okay.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_04: Well, let's just jump right in, I guess.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_04: We'll we'll bring up different thoughts and questions along the way, but with your expertise and maybe where we could just start, uh, what do you know from research about the well-being of pastor spouses?
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_04: Let's just start there.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, great question.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, the part of the answer to that is not not a whole lot from the standpoint that there's not a ton of uh research, at least that's well done from a research perspective.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what we do know, we know with clarity.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I would say that.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_01: So there are some things that we know that have been um uh supported by multiple well-done research studies.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: And one of those, and this is no surprise probably to your listeners because they've lived this, but that uh the role of a ministry spouse is incredibly multifaceted, um, not unlike that of being a pastor.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, we did similar, what's called job analysis research of pastor spouses, which is to say, what does this role require of a person if you're gonna live into this role in terms of all the demands?
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just so incredibly multifaceted, it requires a person to sort of try to be an expert generalist in some ways, um, even though there's not an official job description, there's not compensation, there's often not acknowledgement or gratitude for filling all those roles.
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: And and it it really is very challenging to live into sort of an authentic expression of that role and let your strengths, your gifts, your own sense of vocation as a disciple to express itself uniquely uh when you have all these role expectations from uh the environment and from all the people you're serving.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so the role demands and expectations are really significant and one of the most difficult things uh to navigate.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we also know that the the spouse tends to be the primary, uh sometimes only source of support for the pastor.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are of course many beautiful things about that in a in a healthy marriage, and and and spouses also report joys in that, you know, sharing uh ministry with their spouse.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: There are many wonderful joys about that, many wonderful benefits to that.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but to be the the main or only source of support emotionally, especially when it's a difficult season of ministry in some way, is is very, very challenging, probably in some ways, too much to ask of a marriage, too much to ask of one person.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we talked to pastors about of course you're gonna share things with your spouse in a healthy marriage that you don't share anywhere else, and that's appropriate.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: But what are some other places you can also have some support so that you're not um essentially gonna burn your spouse out emotionally and supporting you, uh, which then leads to that that burnout happens first, we find, and then the burnout of the pastor follows that because their main source of support um is burned out.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_01: So we know that.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and we know that the the rate of depression, clinical depression, the way we would diagnose that as a psychologist or psychiatrist, for spouses is a couple of percentage points higher than that of pastors themselves, which is probably a couple of percentage points higher than that of the general population of North America, anyway.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: It may vary some in other countries.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_01: And um we think partly because spouses are in more of a position of helplessness, um, especially in really difficult um church conflict when they're toxic church bully people um doing what they do.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and spouses have less of a sense of sort of agency or being able to directly address or respond to things.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: So there's more of a passivity to that role socially, um, which just contributes to that depression.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_01: And it's a really isolating role socially, is people relate to you more as your role than to who you actually are as a person.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's it's very, very challenging.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um and again, I I should say too that there are there are lots of things that spouses report in the research that are joyful and and that they love, um, especially when the congregation is healthy enough uh to be supportive and actually get to know them as a person and appreciate who they are and not demand that they fill the role like the last pastor's spouse did, um, those sorts of things.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there are many wonderful things about that that a life in ministry with your spouse can can bring.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So it's it's both joyful and very stressful and complex at the same time, kind of all mixed together.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_03: I I can't think of another job that a spouse would have where the spouse has a role, a title, right?
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_03: We just we just interviewed our husbands uh on a couple Zooms ago.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_03: And it was interesting because we talked about in the interview, they even bring the spouse.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_03: The church will bring the spouse to interview, but it's interesting they bring you so you're part of it, but then all of a sudden you're sidelined, right?
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_03: They want everything you can give, but they don't want to acknowledge your presence or your needs.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's a fun mixed message there.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, I think if I boiled it down, that's the huge part.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_03: Like even in my husband's current role, they want me to show up when they want me to show up, but otherwise, they want me to kind of be quiet and do my thing.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_03: And there's no resources or help for me to design my thing.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_03: Can we change the system?
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_03: Because I don't think I'm the only one.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_03: Jill and I laugh that we're older, so we're like, let's just hit, let's go for a home run, try to make us look needy.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_03: So maybe the next generation of young spouses won't have to endure what we did and are.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_03: And maybe we can change it even a little bit so they feel seen and valued from the interview on.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and I don't know if it's a mindset shift, Chris, or if it's actually how do we?
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_03: I so I throw that out to both of you.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_03: I just when you were saying that, I'm like, yes, yes, yes.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: Well, in my experience, I mean, exactly right, Debbie, everywhere I share with um with pastors and their spouses, you're you're absolutely not alone.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: I I do think it is shifting some generationally in good ways, um, maybe not sort of universally, but I do see some of that happening.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and there are different models, you know, emerging where sometimes people are co-pastoring now, or um, you know, as a spouse also has their own full-time job, aside from the full-time job of of um being a homemaker and spouse and parent.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, which by the way, for women in particular, all those demands and are also there, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to be all things to all people all the time, um, and have the perfect family and marriage and all those sorts of things.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um so I don't think it's unique to you, but um churches I think are doing a better job in denominations of acknowledging this.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: And um, in some ways, it makes sense to me um to involve a spouse to some degree in um choosing a pastor or the pastor choosing a church, just because the role has implications for that person and for a marriage and like any other job.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: However, um, to your point, to to be clear up front about that and um acknowledge you know what we are asking of you, and we're probably gonna ask things of you that we don't know we're gonna ask of you or even mean to in some ways, and um just to acknowledge that can be can go a long way.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_04: You know, uh Sam and I started out that Debbie and I's how we got into ministry is uh just a little bit different, but I'm so glad that we've come together now to to talk about all this.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_04: But Sam and I started out as a lead pastor of uh at least 20 people on our first Sunday, you know, because everybody came out to see the new pastor and his wife.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_04: You know, that was that was a big day.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh life in the glass house, right?
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: Right, exactly.
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_04: That's right.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_04: And you know, the we were there for a handful of years, and it was a it was a church that obviously didn't have any staff.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_04: Um, it was anything that got done, Sam and I did because we were all in, and I also worked another job.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_04: We had a baby, Sam got his first degree there.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_04: I mean, it there was just a whole lot.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_04: We even built a church there and moved the church, so it was like lots of stuff happening.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_04: But what happened, this is hindsight now as I look back.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, it's 2020 that when you look back.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_04: But I was the full-time staff person um that did all the stuff that Sam needed to be supported or to catch his vision and all that kind of stuff.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_04: And I was all in.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_04: I it's not like I'm begrudging that at all.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but then as the Lord moved us to different churches and like uh the next church, there was a couple staff people there.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_04: And that's wonderful.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_04: And I it was just it kind of dawned on me how how I was the staff person, so to speak.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But the unpaid associate, right?
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's what they do.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_04: That's exactly right.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_04: And I and I know all of our sweet pastor spouses, man or woman that find themselves right there today, are that.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_04: They're living that, they're probably providing another income and insurance, uh, because that's what you have to do in that kind of situation.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_04: And what I did, uh, but I I just know that that unrecognized feeling, unappreciated, uh, unvalued to some extent from I'll be careful to say, maybe even from their spouse or from the church, you know, to recognize that what you have in this person, and I again I'm not saying I need accolades or anything like that or whatever.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_04: I'm just looking out for those that are currently doing it and ones that are going to be doing it.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_04: But I just think uh just the word thank you, you know, all that kind of stuff is is just heartwarming.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_04: And really when the church recognizes you as the spouse and maybe what you did or what you are currently doing, maybe not, maybe no matter what size of the church.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_04: Let's just say that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_04: There is something that just warms your heart to say, oh, they really do see what I uh how I'm helping, how I am serving this body, how I'm helping this flock of people, you know, just uh what where the Lord has brought you.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_04: But there's just something to that from not being recognized, and you're just serving crazy like, uh, and you're working crazy like.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: That combination of, if I'm hearing you well, of feeling invisible and also used.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_04: A little bit, yeah, exactly.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_04: That's exactly right.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_01: What I don't think a lot of people understand, and a lot of pastors and spouses maybe don't have language for this, um, is what psychologists call role immersion, which is a role that's a 24-7 um sort of a deal, which which is why this is different than any other kind of job.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's why sabbaticals are important, um, because pastors and spouses, you know, you I'm sure you all have had this experience.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: You went to the grocery store at 10 o'clock at night to pick up something, and you run into somebody from church, and all of a sudden you're working, right?
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you're you're hearing, you're doing pastoral care in the produce aisle or whatever it is.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_01: And um, and there are beautiful things about that, but but that 24-7, almost everywhere you go, almost every relationship in your life is relating to you as this professional role and all that comes with that, which is enormously complex interpersonally.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And there's um what uh what researchers call an emotional labor to that.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_01: So, this is what I don't think people understand who've never been in this situation, is even when you're not working, um, you're not at the church, you're not, you know, um doing well the stuff that Pastor Spouse is supposed to do, you're you're still carrying an emotional load and spiritual load for the church, for your spouse who's carrying that for the church.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_01: And it's just a 24-7 deal on some level, and that's just really demanding.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_03: I think I'm gonna say, Jill, I think I am needy because I I do need that accolade, but I had that conversation with Scott, and I would say I because when we probably 15, 20 years ago, you started seeing a lot of co-pastors, and I really feel like I'm and some really are I want I should say it was great, but I think sometimes it was the the spouse is like, I'm doing everything you're doing except preaching, and I want to be have a title and it's seen and acknowledged.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_03: And that was I totally got that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_03: Um, I don't have a call to be ordained at all.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_03: I believe that is a really unique special calling, and my call is beside Scott, but I did have a conversation with him.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_03: I don't need anyone else to acknowledge this or to say thank you, but I need you to continue to do that for me.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and even now, sometimes we'll leave meetings and they're really hard, and I'll know he totally sees me and sees how hard it was because he plays Christian music when we leave in the car, and that's totally my jam and not his.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_03: It's not the eagles or something.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm like, oh, he gets it.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, he knows, he knows, keep torches on and he knows that was really hard for me.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's actually a hugely important point, Debbie.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: That um, in the the research that I lead, which is called Flourishing in Ministry, we're studying the well-being of pastors and spouses.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And um, this is harder to do from a research perspective, but we tried to look at the well-being of people who are in the same marriage.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: So both people, you know, in a marriage.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_01: And the pastors generally said, Yeah, I'm doing, I'm doing well.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: We're great, you know, well-being is high, not that there aren't stresses and challenges, but in the same marriage, as the spouse was saying, uh, not so much.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And so the lack of awareness there um has been something to address.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I maybe even shared this story once, Debbie.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_01: I got asked to speak to a uh to share the story with you, got asked to speak at a pastor's wives convention a number of years ago.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: I was terrified, but I said yes to it.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: And um, they were very gracious.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh a woman came up to me at a break and tears streaming down her face, and she said, I'm filing for divorce next week, finalizing divorce after I think 35, 40 years of marriage.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very sorry, you know, tell you about that.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_01: He said, My husband insisted on being called pastor at home by me and our children, um, and literally could not step out of the role and just be a husband, a father, a guy, um, off the front stage.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And she said, I just I can't do it anymore.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm done.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And I said something to the effect of I I don't blame you.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know how you did it for 35 years, actually.
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, but that's an extreme example, but yeah, but I mean, not even not acknowledged, not even a real, right?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_03: I mean, just that feels almost abusive, like not my personality.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_03: Scott would have heard from me the first week, like I would have laughed at it.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_03: Like, are you kidding me, Scott Daniels?
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's like real ash and put your underwear in the basket.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_03: No, yeah.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I, you know, I think sometimes it's I'm I'm gonna hide behind the role so I don't have to actually engage in mature healthy intimacy, which is vulnerable, um, you know, the way that a healthy marriage would.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_03: And how do we help people get the courage?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_03: Because looking back on it, Chris, and you can tell me, Jill, if this happened to you, I wasn't as brave as I got older.
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_03: Like I'm thinking if you ask Scott how easy it was to raise four kids, he's probably gonna say, Oh, breeze.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: And I'm gonna tell you, I never slept for a decade of my life between four kids and church and him always gone right.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_03: But it worked smoothly because I did everything.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I I just am wondering how we can help that person starting out to get help earlier because Scott was wonderful once, like he really was blind to it, living in his head and had no idea.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_03: Because I watch him now, and he's definitely the most romantic, precious thing ever to me now, because I told him what my needs are, and he just didn't know, right?
• 18:08
  SPEAKER_03: I just kept acting like everything's okay.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and and you're making me think of I I travel a fair bit at this point.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: We have two kids, and my wife texted me the other night.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I was somewhere, you know, staying in some nice resort hotel that someplace put me up in, and she's like, I hope you're enjoying your quiet hotel room all by yourself, you know.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, I mean, I think some of it is should should I'll just pick on husbands since I am one.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Should husbands be more aware on their own of some of this?
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: Probably.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's fair.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but the the principle both with spouse, I mean, this is what the research says is is helpful in marriage, and it's also helpful in creating boundaries with church people is assertiveness, which is different than aggressiveness, and it's also different than being overly passive or passive aggressive.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: And most of us um in Christian circles, there's sort of a Christian nice thing that we do, and and even uh um people that go into ministry, generally speaking, are nice people, they tend to be nurturers and and not you know overly overbearing and domineering.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: We can actually be conflict avoidant and really need to grow in the assertiveness piece, which is just being clear with your voice about what you need and want and feel, and not coercive, not manipulative, but but clear.
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and doing that with our spouse certainly helps um marriage be healthier, and it also helps other people um, you know, sometimes they won't like it, that the unhealthier people are in a congregation emotionally themselves, the more they will not like healthy boundaries and push back on them.
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um but over time they will learn that these are the boundaries, and this is how we're gonna how we're gonna relate.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: It's exhausting, of course, to have to be the one to set those all the time in every relationship in your life.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but people will will lead into that and learn over time.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I remember uh a trip that Sam and I were taking.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_04: I can't remember where we were going.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_04: I just know we were in the car.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_04: It was just the two of us.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_04: It was about a three-hour drive, and we always talk.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_04: Windshield time was one some of my favorite times.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_04: I think still is, but we're just there a lot.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_04: Now we're on lots of different times.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_04: But I remember somehow the subject came up and we we've always been pretty open with each other.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_04: So that you know, that kind of that was always good, except we finally got to another level of openness in our marriage.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_04: Um and that was you know, I can't read your mind.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_04: I don't know what you're what you're really thinking or what your needs are, and vice versa to me, uh as a man, as my husband, uh, what what are your needs?
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_04: What what what in many different scenarios, you know, and same with me.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_04: What are your needs?
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_04: What do you need?
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_04: Um just a whole bunch of different scenarios.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_04: And we after that trip, I I honestly believe we were just even closer than ever.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_04: And I think we were probably married maybe oh my uh 12 or 13 years probably right in there.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_04: And it was like I I never knew to ask that, you know, because and and he never knew to ask either.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_04: It wasn't like we were holding each other off, and we had a very healthy marriage even before that.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_04: But to to say, you know, neither one of us has ESP or whatever that is, you know, where you can read each other's minds.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_04: So you really need to know.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_04: So when we when we the I I know it was from the Lord probably to to help us to get to that next level of what are your needs?
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_04: What what do you need?
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_04: Uh even as a minister, as a husband, as a Father, as a as a man, you know, whatever.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_04: And the same with me.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_04: And it was uh, you know, we talked a long time, almost the entire time that we drove of all of that.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_04: And it was just beautiful.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_04: And it was it was a teaching moment for for me, and I think for him too, to to know the the next level of uh not just getting along and having a really healthy thing, but then what what what really are your core needs as as this human being?
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_04: And it really helped us a lot.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: That's beautiful.
• 22:34
  SPEAKER_01: And what what that kind of stirs in me to think about is um well, a lot a lot of couples in in marital therapy, I mean, that's a lot of the work is uh, you know, should your husband anticipate those needs or know those by now after however many years of marriage, probably to some degree, but we still need to all voice those.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: But to do that takes um takes psychological safety and relational safety.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And to cultivate that is so important, um, especially for ministry couples, because the it's one of the most challenging things, and it's ironic in churches that you would think you know would be sort of naturally relationally safe, but they're often not actually for the pastor or for the pastor's spouse.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're you're immersed in an environment all the time where that safety can be challenged or compromised.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so to have that safe haven as a couple is absolutely vital that you have to have that to return to to sort of weather all the other um kind of goofiness that you encounter.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_03: To make this even wider, Chris, what is that safe haven?
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_03: Like what back to the comment about a spouse, her husband made her call him pastor at home.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_03: That for me feels abusive.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but what what are the expectations that all spouses, male and female, should say no?
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_03: I should expect this from this spouse.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wow, what a great question.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um what what therapists talk about sometimes is is what's called attachment style, which is even rooted, you know, in our experience of our family of origin, and um, and there are lots of factors that play into that.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_01: But what seems to be the case is all of us can move toward what what's called a secure attachment style instead of a really anxious one or avoidant one, um, whatever our sort of bent is because of brokenness we've encountered, or we've been hurt before.
• 24:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think what what's fair to expect in a healthy Christian marriage is that that marriage is actually a place of of sanctification, um, in that it helps, it's safe enough to uh to articulate our fears and um when we're hurt and what we need, like you were describing, um, and to do that kind of all the time on a regular basis, and know that that's going to be heard um and validated and um and responded to uh with care, um, which I think is a very fair thing to expect uh in a marriage.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Where we can talk about what it and I say this to ministry students and and their spouses, it it sort of doesn't matter who you are, what your strengths and vulnerabilities are, ministry leadership is such that it will tap into those vulnerabilities and trigger you in some way to use the word that the kids are using now.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um you're gonna get triggered.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: You just are sooner or later, probably sooner.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so having awareness of those things and being able to share those with someone who is willing to be with you on the journey.
• 25:53
  SPEAKER_01: I have a good friend who um she's a um marital therapist, par excellence.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's all she does is marriage intensives with a lot of ministry couples where they'll come and spend like a week with her all day, every day.
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um and she she likes to say I listen to people argue for a living is what I do.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um but she's watching kind of the the dance that people do around intimacy because we're we long for it, but we're also afraid of it at the same time.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we all do you know different difficult things with that.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_01: But what she says to couples is this, and I love this, she says, as long as both of you are willing to give yourselves and the other person permission to be on a journey of becoming, then this can work.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um there's permission for you to be in a growth process and living into the full picture of who God created you to be.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um then we can you know address pretty much everything else.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: But if if you're not willing to let me be on a journey of becoming and I'm not willing to let you do that, it's gonna be really tough.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_04: You know, I'm gonna change the subject for a second.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_04: You know, we've we've talked about loneliness on our podcast a couple of times or a lot, because you know, we've experienced it in different ways and in different seasons.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_04: And I know a lot of our friends out there may be experiencing it now.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_04: Um and it's probably for a lot of reasons, like you've already mentioned, you know, the unseen and invisible and just all that kind of stuff.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_04: How do you have any suggestions on uh for pastor spouses to maybe not get over it?
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_04: I don't want to say that because I I have experienced that and I experience it even currently sometimes, you know.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_04: So uh in this new role, but what what are your thoughts on all of that for pastoral spouse?
• 27:40
  SPEAKER_01: Such a great question and and agree with you the the sort of notion of just get over it in in a way almost you know beats beats ourselves up for our own loneliness or something, which doesn't really help.
• 27:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that there are a couple of things that seem to be really significant, and this is sort of a combination what I'm gonna say of research and just experience working with folks.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um one is I've heard a lot of spouses say that if they can find a place to go and worship, um, where they can not be in a visible role, um, and and maybe totally anonymous, which maybe doesn't totally address the loneliness thing.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'll get to that in a second, but but just to where I don't have to be mindful of everybody watching me worship, um, and I can go and really just enjoy a worship service that is a church that maybe the pastor knows me, they see me sitting in the back, and they're fine with me being there, but not everybody else does.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: They don't know I'm another pastor's spouse from the community or whatever, um, can be enormously life-giving just in terms of spiritually being able to be in corporate worship and experience God and kind of not have to be on.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_03: Just fill your cup without caring about what anyone's doing, or if the candles aren't lit or what whatever comes wrong is not your problem.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 28:59
  SPEAKER_03: Exactly.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the other one, and and this is important for pastors too, but I would say maybe even more important for spouses is to have what we call a community of practice, meaning a group of spouses that you can get together with every now and then at least.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, ideally, you know, on a regular basis, um, just to kind of share reality with people that get it.
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you like Jill and Debbie, when you all get together, you don't have to explain in depth what it's like, you just know because you've both been there.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_01: And there's something about that that is enormously helpful in kind of breaking that sense of isolation and then being able to share um the hard parts of that, but also find encouragement and ideas and like deep community with people that understand the social role that you're in from the inside can be enormously helpful, especially when there's a trained facilitator that can help that go somewhere constructive.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_01: Doesn't have to be, but um but that seems to be a really, really helpful thing to kind of break that sense of isolation.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: And the the third one that comes to mind is to have at least one close personal friendship, which I know is difficult given all the relational demands and time, especially when you're raising kids and everything, but to have at least one close personal friendship outside of your church or outside of your ministry context.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Why?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because they're not in that emotional system and they're they're not relating to you primarily as a pastor spouse.
• 30:33
  SPEAKER_01: You can just be you, a friend, could just be Debbie, just be Jill.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that could be enormously helpful as well.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: It can be another ministry spouse, doesn't have to be.
• 30:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what spouses tell me in counseling is sometimes it's actually incredibly helpful if somebody is in a totally different kind of life, um, just for the perspective that can bring that their husband or sp or wife is a physician, or they themselves, you know, have a career as an architect or whatever it is.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's just a very, very different perspective that helps shed some light on some things and kind of broaden our world, which can get sort of consumed with the realities that are right in front of us if we're not careful.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_03: I want to broaden that even more and help listeners.
• 31:20
  SPEAKER_03: If you're listening um and not watching on YouTube, well, keep going, you're on the treadmill or wherever you're walking, keep going, you can do it.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_03: Uh, but I also want to say at the end of every one of our podcasts are tabletop questions, and they are brought up just to help that conversation get going.
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_03: And I know we have a lot of non-Nazarene people.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_03: And I would say when we lived in California, the churches, my best friends were people in other denominations.
• 31:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um, there's a Lake Avenue congregation.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_03: I got together with her all the time.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_03: There was a Sarah Madre pastor's wife, I we got together, and just be really brave and contact them, and those can become your people.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_03: And I know in our level, we have district levels, and a district could do the tabletop questions together, and that's an easy way to connect, also.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_03: Um, but I do think that for me has always been a healthy, safe space.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_03: And I felt so valued and seen.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_03: And sometimes even now, I'll get texts from people and we'll say, Can you believe this happened?
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we respond.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_03: And Jill and I were on a Zoom where we felt like a pastor's wife was being kind of told what her dream should be.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_03: And we're like, No, don't let them tell you that's not your dream.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and so it is it's it's so helpful to be in a community with other people, but you might have to be really brave and call the church down the street and say, Hey, can I have your pastors, or will you give her or him my number and connect that way?
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_03: And especially our male spouses.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: And that's another really glad you mentioned that because that's a really other helpful nuance that sometimes it actually doesn't feel or let me put it this way it takes extra work to feel safe if it's folks from the same denomination in the same geographic proximity, like on the same district, for example.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_01: Not that that can't happen.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen it happen in beautiful, wonderful ways, but sometimes it actually is easier with folks from other denominations where you you know they're not in the system, you know, but they also get it.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_01: So that can be super helpful.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_04: Yeah, exactly.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_04: There was a time in our life where um we we found our people, we called it our AA group.
• 33:26
  SPEAKER_04: You know, you didn't have to explain anything about yourself.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, everybody in that room got it.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_04: And uh, but what happened was we weren't geographically close.
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, we would get together every once in a while.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_04: Uh, but we just stayed in touch by Zoom.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_04: We had Zoom calls, uh, you know, text groups, WhatsApp groups, you know, the whole thing.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_04: Uh just it just a community of somebody had, you know, needed a prayer request or something was going funky at their church.
• 33:56
  SPEAKER_04: We were on it, you know, we were with them.
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_04: And it didn't matter if we were 12 hours away.
• 34:01
  SPEAKER_04: We were we were right there together.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_04: And that that was a game changer for us too.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_04: That to find your people, like Debbie always says, is it is really a game changer for that.
• 34:12
  SPEAKER_01: I it reminded me, Jill, when you said that some of the wives at this um conference I mentioned where I spoke said that a group of them had started a a text chain and they just started kind of spontaneously sharing like a running list of kind of the craziest things people said to them at church.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: And they would share them to laugh, but then also there was something like an implicit healing from it.
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we all get these crazy kind of comments, and and just to have somewhere to share that with people that also see the ridiculousness of some of that um was a super helpful thing for them.
• 34:50
  SPEAKER_01: Just a simple text, you know, it didn't have to be a long conversation, just there was there was a lot of symbolic, you know, support and being able to share stuff like that.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_03: I think it's important, and I know Jill, I say this every podcast, you do have to find your people because you have to find that person that can help you that understands how you think and process and your personality, and we're all so uniquely different.
• 35:13
  SPEAKER_03: And God doesn't want you to be the spouse that was before the at the church or one that you keep seeing you, he created you to be you, and you're there, and he wants to empower you to just live into you, but you have to find the people that accept that.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: And that that really is a huge thing, Debbie.
• 35:32
  SPEAKER_01: I find myself saying a lot, sort of clinically, is that that very point that you you define the role the way that you uniquely will define it, which is by God's design, it'll be different than any other spouse has before or since in church history, and that's as it should be, rather than let all those expectations um define you.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know if either of you are familiar.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think WMB we talked about Pete and Jerry Schizero.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: So the quick story is Pete uh planted a church in Queens, New York, and the church grew like crazy, and he came home from church one day, and his wife Jerry said, Pete, I'm not leaving our marriage.
• 36:10
  SPEAKER_01: I love you, but I am leaving the church.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not going anymore.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_01: This is unhealthy, I'm not gonna be part of it.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_01: And he said, Well, that really gets your attention as the pastor when your spouse says, I'm I'm not coming to church anymore, or your church.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that sent them on a journey of getting into individual marital therapy and discovering contemplative Christian spiritual practices.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: And then they took their church on this journey and created this whole discipleship curriculum that is called emotionally healthy discipleship.
• 36:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that they were never setting out to create something for other churches, it just sort of went kind of viral around the world and stuff.
• 36:45
  SPEAKER_01: And they've created emotionally healthy leadership resources and so forth.
• 36:49
  SPEAKER_01: But um so Jerry said it it took her a long time to get to this point, but um as they were kind of getting to a place of greater health, some people came up to her right after church, which is always when it is, right?
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_01: It's always the drive-by, you know, passive aggressive comment on the way out the door.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_03: Comment on you as they're leaving.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yes, yeah.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_01: After this, maybe wonderful worship service and wonderful sermon from your spouse, and like I don't know how people, you know, what's the internal conversation there is always my question.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, um, so somebody did that and and just was kind of uh reaming her out for not coming to, I think it was a Sunday school Christmas party for their Sunday school class.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_01: Large church, they couldn't be at everything every year, you know.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_01: So she said, I've heard myself say to them, um, well, that's a really interesting set of expectations you have.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't share those expectations, but I wonder where those come from for you.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I just love that because it's it's assertive, not rude or aggressive, but just sometimes the most pastoral thing we can do is to hand people back those expectations and sort of let them wrestle with what that's about for them and and not not take those on.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_01: And she said it took me a lot of years to get to that point.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there's a place of freedom in that that can be really empowering.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_04: I I love that so much that I could just talk about it for an hour.
• 38:20
  SPEAKER_04: But let me ask you this that brought to mind what what are some practices like that?
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_04: Like what what are practices uh maybe on a daily basis or maybe monthly or whatever that would look like for a pastor's spouse to maybe become healthy or become healthier or get out of a wound or uh anything like that?
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_04: What are what are some of those thoughts from you?
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um great question.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think I mean one of the resources I would recommend is the emotionally healthy discipleship piece.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: Is one of the things that they do in that is they they talk a lot about cultivating self-awareness, not not for the sake of being like um kind of self-absorbed, but really for the sake of Christ-likeness and discipleship and understanding your family of origin, for example, how that shaped you, um, how that shaped uh what makes you anxious, how you respond in conflict, those kinds of things.
• 39:19
  SPEAKER_01: So that um we don't just knee-jerk react out of those things without understanding where they come from and being able in the moment to kind of consciously choose something else, which I really think is the fruit of self-control, fruit of the spirit is you know, understanding how to respond rather than react out of stuff that we haven't explored or interrogated in some way.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so revisiting some of those deeper kinds of formational things in our lives can be enormously helpful.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um the um one of the things that we find in the research that can be really helpful, and this may sound initially sort of unspiritual or something, as opposed to the classic spiritual disciplines, but um I would encourage your listeners to find a a way and a place to play.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um as really a holy habit, as literally a spiritual discipline, because um when we can do something that we enjoy just for the sheer enjoyment of the activity, just literally like a child at play, and it evokes all kinds of positive emotion, which is often not the case with ministry work.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_01: It evokes a lot of negative emotion just by the nature of the work.
• 40:38
  SPEAKER_01: And it's something that takes our full concentration to do it, so we can't do that thing and also be mentally thinking about our spouse or the church or whatever thing is stressing us out.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So you can literally have holy detachment in that way.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and something that you have some developing skill in doing for at least a half an hour a week seems to be the the minimum or more.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_01: And if you can do that in community with some of these kind of friendships we talked about, you know, even better.
• 41:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but I have had folks seek me out and and say, you know, I heard you say that, so I started to implement that, and that's been a game changer in my life.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_01: To do that on a regular basis over time, um, really does a lot to change the sense of of well-being and just to sort of be a person um and not be your role for a little bit.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_03: So healthy, like Scott's at a golf tournament today, and golfing is his thing, and he has half of them are Christians, half aren't.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_03: He's never oh, they still call him pastor most of the time, um, and they make him pray over meals, but they're mostly just guys that are out doing guy things, and I love how much he loves it.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_03: But the thought when you said that you can get better at it takes his like he doesn't think church the whole time he's out.
• 41:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_01: And and what what we find is people come back to uh, and of course, spouses, even though that they're the unpaid, you know, unwritten job description, um, of course they care about the ministry work and are bringing their best selves to that.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_01: But when when you do that, you can come back to that work with exponentially higher creativity and productivity and kind of bring your best self to that um when you take a break.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_01: The the other thing that we find practice-wise, and and then I'll let you respond, is um contemplative Christian spiritual practices are particularly important uh for ministry spouses.
• 42:40
  SPEAKER_01: Not that other spiritual disciplines are unimportant.
• 42:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so things like um silence, um uh centering prayer, breath prayer, Ignatian spiritual exercises, if some of your listeners are familiar with St.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Ignatius.
• 42:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and for those of us from a Wesleyan holiness background, there are lots of rich resources theologically there that draw from all different areas of church history um with these kind of practices, and um to to be in a regular rhythm of those.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_01: And we think why that's helpful is those are just about listening to God, just being with God, experiencing sort of loving union with God, um and and receiving from God.
• 43:29
  SPEAKER_01: You don't have to sort of religiously perform as part of the practice, which is what you have to do all the time in your unofficial official role.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because you get asked to pray at everything too, uh if your spouse isn't there, right?
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_01: Like like nobody else can pray, you know.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so to step outside of that and just be a child of God um is really, really vitally important.
• 43:54
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we're finding so long term kind of well.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_03: And it is so soul filling.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_03: So we're about Run out of time, but I have two last questions.
• 44:01
  SPEAKER_03: But my final one is what are some consistent things that you find in spouse or coupled ministry couples that have gone the long haul, like I was at 36 years of ministry, things you see consistently, and is there a certain space where you see burnout the earliest?
• 44:19
  SPEAKER_03: Like at it, if they don't make it to 10 years, they're probably that's usually the drop-off point, right?
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
• 44:23
  SPEAKER_03: I would not clear it.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, great questions.
• 44:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um what seems to be the case is that the first five to seven years sort of out of college or seminary are the most challenging while you're sort of developing kind of your identity as a pastor and pastor spouse and what that's going to look like.
• 44:44
  SPEAKER_01: And that either forms kind of on a positive trajectory or an unhealthy trajectory.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_03: So if they're exposed to a negative church in that first five to seven years, mass huge deal.
• 44:56
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so to have mentoring, to have support, I mean, even therapy when needed, to help have a reparative experience and recover from even, I think there are forms of trauma there actually, psychologically, that people go through, um, can be really important.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: But there does seem to be a a seven seven to ten year burnout wall in a lot of helping professions, but in particular different forms of ministry where people can kind of gut it out, even in a difficult assignment for seven, eight, nine, ten years, and then they just hit a wall where they just can't do it anymore.
• 45:35
  SPEAKER_01: It's just too costly, or they just don't have it in them anymore.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that sneaks up on people, spouses and pastors, because we're we're maybe not paying attention to it.
• 45:44
  SPEAKER_01: And so it it sort of builds out of our awareness until it hits a threshold of of severity, and then it kind of hits people like a ton of brick.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: So to be aware of that, to sort of monitor that.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of the things uh what jumped into my mind, Debbie, with your question is what do couples do that I've seen make it the long haul, in addition to all the kinds of things we've talked about, um, is to have boundaries at home around uh church-related stuff.
• 46:14
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, I know a couple who share this with me, I think it's a great practice.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: They they realized early in their marriage, unless we put some boundaries around how long and where in the house we're gonna talk about church, it will take over all the space and all the time at home.
• 46:31
  SPEAKER_01: So they decided we will talk about church-related stuff after dinner at the kitchen table for an hour.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_01: After that, we're not talking about church unless there's some sort of emergency that happens, which from time to time happens.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: But we're and we're not gonna talk about it in the living room.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're certainly not gonna talk about it in the bedroom, we're not gonna talk about it because it psychologically just takes over all the space and all the time if we don't put some limits on that.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, including um, where in the house will you do church-related work?
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, what's what people do nowadays with technology is they'll, you know, pastors are working on a sermon in bed, you know, on their laptop, or answering email, or checking their phone and they get the nasty text or email from somebody at 11 o'clock at night, and then all of a sudden they can't sleep.
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: Couples that last don't do that.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_01: They have boundaries around technology.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they don't, you know, if they have a spot in the house where they do ministry work, they only do that work in that spot.
• 47:34
  SPEAKER_01: When they're done, they turn the laptop off, they close it, they put it away in a drawer, which I know sounds like a very simple thing, but there's something about being contained, yeah.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that psychologically ends up being really significant.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because otherwise, over time your brain starts to associate all these other places in the house with ministry-related stress, and it just disrupts everything.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_01: And so kind of containing it at home is a big deal, and including with kids too.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, having if if Louis Lens have kids, um, I'm a third-generation pastor's kid, so there's a lot I could say about this, but giving kids permission to be kids, um, right, and be in development and make mistakes like all of us did, and um go through the natural development process and be involved in ministry uh uh and in some ways as much as they want to be, but not coercing that or forcing that more than um as healthy, those kinds of things.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_01: What what we find with pastors kids, generally speaking, if people pay attention to their healthy marriage and healthy family dynamic at home, um for the most part, their kids can weather all the church-related stuff if that's if that's healthy.
• 48:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's the kids that see a very different person in the pulpit than they experience at home that they can't reconcile.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that is the really, really damaging thing.
• 48:57
  SPEAKER_03: Or the kids that never have a dad.
• 48:59
  SPEAKER_03: Like we saw early on Scott and I would be like at the kids' soccer games because we our kids played soccer, so all of our Saturdays were at soccer fields.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_03: And the second he would get a text or something from someone, and all of a sudden I would say, You're not at this game, your body is, but your brain just left.
• 49:14
  SPEAKER_03: So no more cell phones when we're out on a family thing.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_03: And we still make Scott put it away because all the kids will be over, and then he gets an email from somewhere, and you're like, Wow, there he goes.
• 49:25
  SPEAKER_03: Even though his body's there, his brain is not he's not dad anymore.
• 49:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 49:30
  SPEAKER_04: Well, I have personally learned a lot from you today, and so thankful for your wisdom and your ministry, and and and you have helped someone out there as you have helped me today.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_04: So, you know, I was thinking about that play thing.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_04: I know all the things Sam loves to do, jump on the motorcycle and go for a hike and all that kind of stuff, but I don't I can't I can't list mine because I I need to I need to do better at that.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_04: So I can't list one either.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_04: So good.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_04: I got work or work or work.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_04: What do you want?
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_04: That's a good thing for me right now.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm whether at the office or at home is just different work, right?
• 50:10
  SPEAKER_03: That's exactly right.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, yeah.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_03: Well, Chris, thank you so much.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_03: And someday we hope to have a retreat and we are gonna ask you to be the speaker, come with us.
• 50:22
  SPEAKER_03: But here's the deal we're bringing your wife and we're gonna get a really good room, fancy food.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 50:28
  SPEAKER_03: We're celebrating her too because we're not leaving.
• 50:31
  SPEAKER_03: We know what it's like to eat the leftover dino nuggets and cheesy whatever and send you a picture of this beautiful restaurant they're all hanging at.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: Oh thanks.
• 50:39
  SPEAKER_01: Well, she yeah, she would give you the real definitely would be an interesting conversation.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_03: But we have a real we're bringing you both.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_03: So good.
• 50:48
  SPEAKER_01: Awesome.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_01: Great to be with you.
• 50:51
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you for listening to Beside Every Calling.
• 50:54
  SPEAKER_03: And I just want to encourage you what Chris said, he talked about not only the books and the practices, um, but in the end of the show notes and the tabletop questions are all located there, and we'll have links.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_03: And if I if there's any other resources Chris has for me, believe me, I will put it in the show notes.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_03: So make sure you look at those.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_03: And please, if this conversation was helpful at all and you think of someone else, a ministry spouse out there, this could help.
• 51:16
  SPEAKER_03: Will you just stop right now and share it in a text?
• 51:19
  SPEAKER_03: Let's help build this community and have healthier, happier churches and spouses.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_03: Thanks everybody.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_03: If this conversation felt a little too familiar, like were they sitting in my living room this week familiar?
• 51:32
  SPEAKER_03: That's your sign.
• 51:34
  SPEAKER_03: Text this episode to one ministry spouse who might need it today.
• 51:38
  SPEAKER_03: And if this space feels like oxygen in your season, would you please take thirty seconds and leave us a review?
• 51:45
  SPEAKER_03: It helps more spouses find this beautiful, sometimes overlooked, but wildly important community.
• 51:51
  SPEAKER_03: We'll see you next time on Beside Every Calling.