Latest / Skin Anarchy / Digital Marketing Mastery for Beauty Brands with Pennock’s Nikki Lindgren

Transcript

Digital Marketing Mastery for Beauty Brands with Pennock’s Nikki Lindgren · Skin Anarchy

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey guys, welcome back to Speaker Anarchy.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: This is your voice Vecta and today is such a full episode because it's about a topic which I know really nothing about and a lot of you out there I know are small business founders and entrepreneurs and you guys are always chiming in with your questions about the business side of things when it comes to the beauty industry and your own brands and your own initiatives.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, I want to introduce you guys to a true expert in digital marketing.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: She's the founder and managing partner of her own firm, which is Pennock.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: So without further ado, welcome Nikki Lindgren to the show.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome to the show, Nikki.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_01: I'm so excited to host you.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_00: Acta, super excited to be here.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me today.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I know it's an honor to host you.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I want to learn from you actually, because, you know, like I said, I really don't know anything about digital marketing, but I see it everywhere, you know?
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm always wondering, well, you know, who's the genius behind all of the wonderful campaigns that we see, wonderful ad campaigns.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: So before we dive into that, Nikki, I'd love to learn more about you, if you don't mind, kind of walk us down memory lane and maybe share a little bit about yourself and your career and what got you into digital marketing.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I was fortunate enough to find myself in the San Francisco Bay Area, coming out of college and really looking for something in direct-to-consumer e-commerce space.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_00: So I started in home decor working for Pottery Barn and then Cost Plus World Market, now known as World Market, running e-commerce marketing for those brands.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so that was my first foray into it.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_00: Being in the Bay Area was a great place to be doing digital stuff.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_00: And what really piqued my interest around the subject matter was it evolved and changed so quickly.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_00: I had previously been in inventory management and I was like, okay, you know, I become an expert at one system.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: I fight with 10 other of my peers for the one management job available above us.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it just felt like a little bit more of a dog eat dog world.
• 1:49
  SPEAKER_00: And I really enjoyed digital because it was moving so fast and things we did six months ago didn't even work nowadays.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's where I kind of fell in love with digital marketing and haven't left.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: So since then I've been agency side, I've been in-house, a handful of direct-to-consumer brands, but that's always been my thing is trying to figure out how to get people to come to an e-commerce website, convert, become a lifelong customer for the brand, and so on.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so Pennot came together in 2020, and we've been really serving not only e-commerce, but specifically beauty and lifestyle brands have been our jam.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_00: We aim to find brands as they're kind of emerging.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_00: They've proven their product market fit, they've proven they've got an ecosystem for marketing, and they're probably scaling up to about a million in sales per year by the time we start engaging with them.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: They've previously ran a little bit of ads, but generally with a freelancer or someone kind of part-time helping them out on the side.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: And actually, you guys specialize in like female-led brands too, right?
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we do.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and it's kind of interesting because it happens so naturally in beauty, where we just, you know, get the privilege of working with so many women anyway.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, most of the brands were supporting are either female founded or the marketing seam is led by a female CMO.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_00: So most of our day-to-day conversations happen with female leaders.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER_01: That's so cool.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, what's interesting to me is that, you know, you mentioned you guys started in 2020.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, uh, you know, when I started as computer anarchy, I know that like digital marketing was there and like there were a lot of ads that we would see.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: But then when TikTok came around, like I feel like that's kind of when it started appearing, you know, and it it was just like everything changed for me as a consumer, you know, from my standpoint, where it was like such a different way.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: I felt like we were all engaging with content as consumers rather than just seeing like an ad run on Instagram, you know, or like on a website or something.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's really one of my biggest questions for you is this idea of like, you know, with TikTok, like what is the difference that you've seen in terms of TikTok ads and how brands can really leverage those ads, you know, or really just the platform in general, because it seems to be so big in the beauty industry.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I think okay, so some of the changes that came forward with TikTok are so much more creator-generated content.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: And it actually adds to some extent have become a little bit harder to notice.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, obviously there's a sponsored flag on all the ads on social, but because TikTok has taken such a low-vi, like platform native approach, sometimes the ads get a little bit buried in in just the noise of a regular for you page.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: But I think some of the differences between TikTok and like, let's say Instagram or Meta ads, which is its closest like cousin, is that we see a better attention rate, which is just sort of overall video engagement rate on TikTok than we do on Meta.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: So an attention rate is a three-second play divided by impressions.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: We generally see about 30% attention rate on TikTok.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: And then Instagram is closer to like 20.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: So that's just kind of speaking to the efficiencies and interest of the general user base of TikTok.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_00: On top of that, it's cheaper to be on TikTok today.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, things might be different a year from now, but those are kind of the first mover advantages for brands that are still kind of getting up to speed on TikTok is the affordability of it from an awareness perspective.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_00: Then Instagram, Pinterest, Google, Programmatic, any other pay platform you'd be on.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: No, I've I've noticed that.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we run ads for essay a lot, but I've noticed there is a price difference.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, also it that's interesting you say that because a lot of small brands I saw, you know, especially with the boom of like the influencers on TikTok.
• 5:29
  SPEAKER_01: I noticed they were migrating over there to try to get a little buzz going, you know, especially smaller brands.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: And I noticed that, you know, there is more of a pickup, you know.
• 5:38
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just from what I've heard back from like, you know, fellow founders we've had on the show before that, you know, they've noticed that there was an uptick in whether that's impressions or even sales.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it was just performing better for them as a platform.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, do you have any like kind of an oversight guidance as to why that might be?
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, what are something about I mean, what would you recommend to small brand founders when it comes to TikTok, I should ask.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the first thing to kind of be aware of is obviously the persona of customer the brand is going after.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been talking with and we work with some founders of brands that are for more mature women or individuals in the skincare space.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_00: And so what they find is like TikTok doesn't work necessarily better for them than any of the other platforms because TikTok does skew towards the younger demographics.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Similarly, some really high price point prestige brands are going to have a hard time with TikTok shop because it's so much more of a considered purchase.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: People want to go to your e-commerce store, understand probably about the brand, about what makes it so prestige.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: And so getting someone to TikTok shop to buy instantly is probably not going to be the best strategy for them.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: But for kind of the mastige brands, let's call it, with like 20-something year old demo as their main audience, being on TikTok is a really good place to be.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: I think working with as many creators who can create the assets for you rather than brand speak is going to help.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: And then you will see a higher return on ad spend in that instance where you're going after the 20-something consumer, pointing people to TikTok shops to convert directly on social.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: So we usually see brands that kind of fit that profile I just mentioned observe like a 37% lift in return on ad spend, which can be quite significant when pointing people to TikTok shop as opposed to your e-commerce store.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: That's so interesting.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, what is it about?
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I want to understand this a little bit better in terms of like what different types of ads there are, like the different options.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, like, can we kind of walk us through that?
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what are the ads that are available for people on TikTok versus like any other platform or which ones are the ones that you usually kind of recommend that you know your clients go for?
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I would say if we can kind of continue playing out this example of like a brand that already has a lot of 20-something consumers and their average price point or AOB is like$50 to$100, let's say.
• 8:04
  SPEAKER_00: In that scenario, being on TikTok with shop enabled, so that your in-feed video ads, which is like the standard kind of ad you would show if in your for you page to your target audience, is going to be the name of the game with that shop enabled.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: So people can check out directly on TikTok shop.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you're using what's called Spark ads on TikTok, you know, known as boosted ads on Meta, where you're picking up your organic TikTok posts or your creators' organic TikTok posts and running those Spark ads as your actual advertisements on TikTok is going to work best.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: There is kind of a toggle that one could miss when setting up their in-feed video ads, which is called search ads toggle.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: And once you toggle that on, whenever someone's using TikTok search, as most of the younger generations are now doing more heavily than Google search, you can also ensure that your ads show up in search results too, not just in the for you page.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: So that has made a huge difference in terms of performance for our brands, is really just enabling what's called search ads toggle.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: You'll see it again in any video ad you create on TikTok as an option, is really kind of another layer of special flair that's going to give you great results.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I would say the other kind of ad unit that is newer, let's call it and less utilized, are carousel ads on TikTok.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And this will allow you to again point to TikTok shop or point to your e-commerce store, but you can put in videos in carousel format just like you have on Meta or real just images in carousel format, including catalog ads.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_00: So I'd say carousel kind of comes forward a little bit more on the lifestyle lane than it does beauty, but we have seen some corner cases of this success in beauty.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: So if brands are better suited to have really beautiful visuals that are static images, they still can try out this carousel ad format on TikTok to see if it works for them.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's so interesting because I always see, you know, like I know what you mean because I always see like these very specific types of ads for like, for example, fashion or beauty.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: And there is a difference, you know, and you're just kind of scrolling through, you notice like people are opting for different things.
• 10:26
  SPEAKER_01: And I also see a lot of creators on there that are like, hey, you know, this is what's gonna work if you're a beauty brand.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_01: And that kind of leads me to a question I have for you is like, can you talk a little bit about this whole algorithm stuff that everyone's talking about?
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_01: Because I swear I have there's so many like like people on there that are like, you know, hey, I can help you with ads, and they're like, you have to understand the algorithm.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what do you mean?
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_01: What do we have to understand about the algorithm if you could give us like a 101 on that?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, listen, there's gonna be both people on every platform who's targeting you as a business owner and your listeners as beauty brand owners, is just sort of, you know, the name of how marketing comes together.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think the scare tactic can be kind of, you know, intense and overwhelming.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, as much as I run an agency and I'd love to have more awesome clients, probably listeners of your show, like it's not that complicated.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: So, what I mean by that is when you think about a new audience and you're targeting like a net new customer on TikTok, there are a couple different ways in which you can put an audience together.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: One can be machine learning, where you're really not giving the back-end platform, TikTok ads manager, much data about your customer, but you're saying, hey, my objective is e-commerce conversion, and I only want to spend$40 per conversion, which would be a$40 customer acquisition cost.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: And then TikTok, now that it knows those things that you're going after, it's going to go find the audience for you.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: Same can be said on all the other platforms.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one way to approach it, which is like you're letting the, you know, the machine learning of TikTok go out and find that best customer for you.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: The other ways in which you can set it up are you can say, I want to go after people who act like people or look like people who've already converted on my website.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: I want to go after these specific hashtags.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you can get really granular in how you target.
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: But I would say for a newer brand to starting out, the broader the audience, it actually performs better right now in 2024 because of the advancements of machine learning.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_00: So I wouldn't go too granular unless in your targeting for new customers, unless you have proof that granular is what you need to do.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I would be really thoughtful about how you slice and dice audiences to make sure that they're you're learning something out of it, right?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like sometimes we'll say, okay, well, I want people in Florida who act like this versus people in Texas like that.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, if they're technically the same person but in different states, like, do you even need those as separate campaigns?
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, that makes sense because I swear, like that's something that I know I went through was like trying to figure out like where, like, you know what I mean, like geographically and like what people would be interested in.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I mean, that makes sense what you're saying.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, I think with all of this, it gets so confusing for most of us who don't have the background because there are so many options, you know what I mean, that you can play around with.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I know that on Instagram, for example, like Meta has this whole like, oh, this is like the green bar of like this is the good spot for you to be in this how many accounts we're gonna target.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like I've always wondered about that is that, you know, how do we know if we're really reaching the right people, you know, because at some point you just have to, I mean, they give you very broad terms, right?
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like when you enter your stuff, like you know, someone interested in beauty or whatever, and you can enter like those keywords, but I've always wondered, you know, when it really delivers the ad.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, how much are you really getting in terms of conversions?
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Because I don't know, I know I had to play around with it, you know, for essay.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very interesting.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you bring that up because we'll work with early stage brands, as mentioned at the beginning of the show, and they're, you know, price conscious.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how much are you to keep a retainer to run our ads versus like the next guy or technology out there?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so a lot of our early stage founders will go off and they'll work with like an Otis or someone else who is basically AI for ads management.
• 14:19
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll come back and be like, oh my God, that was a miserable experience.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: We didn't learn anything.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: And like basically we just spent money on machine or on an AI platform that's supposed to run ads for us.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's where it gets into like, yeah, the system will give you some really generic ideas.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: They'll also give you recommendations, like 300% growth in budgets to make this campaign work.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that their bottom line is making sure that they get as much revenue from us as advertisers as possible.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So oftentimes a lot of what my team and I will see from like recommendations from the ad platforms are like, you know, kind of garbage, right?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like we as experts are not gonna go in and be like, auto apply, accept all these changes, they look good to us.
• 15:02
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what you're kind of getting in 2024 with the AI solutions out there is they're just like not that slick or sophisticated, and they're not going to do a better job of understanding your business as a human well.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense, actually.
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_01: That makes a lot of sense because yeah, I mean, I know I've definitely been in that mode.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've spent thousands of dollars.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_01: I know when SA was getting started.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and a lot of you out there I know can relate to this, you know, when you're starting a brand, you're in the beginning stages, you want to make sure that you're targeting the right, you know, demographic for your products or your services.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately, there's a lot of companies out there that are just advertising, you know, hey, we will grow your account or we will make sure that you get, you know, blah, blah, blah, but then you never see the results and you just keep trying and trying.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: And before you know it, you're in like a hole, you know, thousands of dollars and you haven't gotten any results.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_01: So that's definitely a real thing.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_01: I know I've definitely fallen prey to that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_01: So if anyone listening out there is is in that boat with me, I think it's it's what you know, smart to kind of consult the true experts, you know, when it comes to digital marketing, because I think we all want to, as entrepreneurs, take it into our own hands.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately that doesn't always work, you know, because we don't know.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like you like the things you're talking about, Nikki, I don't know.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: You know what I mean?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: I have no idea about the the back end of the stuff.
• 16:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's very important, I think, especially for small brands, like from the get-go, to really hone in and figure out what what is your demographic, what is your like niche, you know, consumer, and and you know, make sure you're reaching them.
• 16:27
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I want to ask you, you know, I know I see a lot of affiliate marketing on both all the platforms for social media, and I I think that's one of the big questions at the forefront is how should brands think about affiliates on, for example, on TikTok.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: So being in the performance like ads lane in particular, like my answer is already going to be like a little gray and maybe not as awesome as someone who is an affiliate expert.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: But like at the beginning, my MO would be unless it's going to be detrimental to your brand to let third-party people talk about your brand as a way of getting word out, absolutely go out and use the creator portal and find as many affiliates slash creators you can work with, run shop ads through them as possible because it is a way to get that third-party credibility out there.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: So as long as you're, you know, still profitable in all those endeavors, it's going to help you, especially if you're not at a place where you can hire a PR team or someone to kind of run a more traditional affiliate or influencer program for you.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the other like caution I would say to early brands is like if you have a fixed monthly budget you can do for all of the marketing initiatives, the last thing you want to do is put 100% of that bucket and those funds into paid because you need like a level of earned and owned media to be working in your favor for paid to even work.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: If we were talking in 2017, it would have been a very different story.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_00: You could put all of your funds into paid and like grow your business exponentially.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: But nowadays it's really this kind of like ecosystem of a true marketing strategy, growth and scale happening across organic social, across your email program, across, you know, mentions in the press, as well as things going on in the paid space.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I think like that's the unfortunate thing we find with a lot of starter founders is they'll come to us and they'll be like, Well, we need you to drive like at least 90% of our sales.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And we're like, cool, we can, but like you're not gonna make money for a very long time if that's how you're going to stack your marketing programs.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that makes sense.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: You kind of mean you I guess you do need like someone to actually talk about your brand, like in a in a way that's outside of paid.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I can definitely see that.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, also something to reference.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think it's just a long road, and that's one of the things I always see with newer brands is that they want this like, you know, exponential growth, I think.
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_01: And we, I mean, we all do, right, as entrepreneurs.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I it's I hear what you're saying though, because it will take time, you know, and there's different avenues and different checkboxes that you have to meet.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I for me, I think the biggest question is what is a good way, like if you're a small brand, right?
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: And you really want to start doing the right thing, like what where is the starting point?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where should that be?
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: Should we be running like a few ads and then also like reaching out, like, you know, cold pitches to like press?
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: Like, what do you recommend from that angle?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so a new brand, again, with like the TikTok lens on in terms of like awareness and growth being through this channel.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_00: I would suggest having the influencers slash affiliates, creators, whatever you want to call them, on TikTok at the ready.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: And this is like as many as you can see gift per month of your product.
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Do it, right?
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: The more you can get out there, the better.
• 19:42
  SPEAKER_00: So I would take that approach as your entry to TikTok.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: You can run those as your organic posts, you can run those as ads.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: So it'll give you a lot of variety and flavor by which you can then use to support the brand as you grow your in-house, you know, tooling related to how creative is going to look and feel.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think from an ads perspective, like how much are you actually spending now that you've got all these creators helping you with seated content?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: You can't run a campaign on TikTok at less than$50 a day.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's just their minimum.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: There's one workaround where you can get down to$20 a day, but that's just those are the two options in terms of how low you can go on TikTok.
• 20:20
  SPEAKER_00: So if you can't spend$50 a day for 30 days straight, then I would pulse it around these influencer posts so that you are kind of using their real-time momentum to catch on to that, you know, to that thing that's moving forward.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: And so then you would be pulsing ads, you know, for seven-ish days around the influencer's organic post of your content is probably how I would set it up.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_00: I would be optimized against the video view as the main objective to start with.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then what you can do second when you have more than$50 a day, say$100 a day for two campaigns, the next campaign you would set up would be a conversion campaign off of people who engaged with your video view campaign so that you're remarketing to people who were already willing to watch multiple seconds of your video.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: That makes sense.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: Wow.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, I I knew nothing none of this.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this is like, I'm like taking it all in because I this makes so much sense.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: But, you know, I guess as a round out question, I want to ask you, you know, what do you think a lot of brands might be getting wrong when they're approaching this on their own?
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what are some of the common mistakes you've seen people, you know, kind of make and how do we avoid that really?
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think the expectations first.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't want to be a total downer, but I feel like if you're talking to someone and you're saying, hey, we need a 5x return for every$1 I spend, I need$5 in sales.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: And we just launched two weeks ago and we've had two sales since then, total for our business.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like that's kind of an impossible starting place.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I think if you're working with a freelancer or an agency or even your in house person and that's the a goal you're set up against, and no one who is an expert told you that that's an impossible goal.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Goal, like that's going to be an issue.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I think the first thing is like making sure you have realistic standards in place and that you know everyone's kind of marching towards the same objective.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's number one.
• 22:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then number two would be probably overcomplicating stuff really quickly is the other problem I see people fall into.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: We've just started working with a new brand in May, and the amount of iterations of awareness audiences they want us to target.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like, okay, with your fixed monthly budget, each of your campaigns is going to be running for like$10 a day.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: In no world is that a good scalable solution.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we have to kind of like match the client in the budget where they are and just say we're going to have fewer insights to begin with, but the strategy is going to allow for possible scale in the future, which will be when we can lay our in some complexity.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_00: Makes sense.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I think there's just a lot to it.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And I think if you're listening and you're really struggling with the ads, you know, that you're putting out there and you're really struggling with digital marketing, I really urge you guys, you know, check out Penn Ock.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, Nikki, if somebody wanted to get a hold of you guys at Pennok, how could they reach out?
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I would recommend they reach out to me via email.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Nikki N-I-K-K-I at P-E-N-N-O-C-K dot C O.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: If they mention skincare anarchy, I'll offer them one of two things.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: One, if they're really early stage, I'll do a 30-minute audit with them of what they've had live in their ads account or what their objectives are and walk them through a detailed plan of how I would stack up their first few paid media campaigns.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: For brands that are a little bit further along and are looking for a new agency to take over and manage their accounts, we'll offer a discount to anyone who mentions Skincare Anarchy to get them set up with the best pricing we can push out there.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's awesome.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much for that and the kindness of that.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And I hope you guys listening out there, you really avail it because I think digital marketing, you know, as you know, Nikki, it's just it's a very great area for most people.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_01: And if you're not a, you know, you don't specialize and you're not an expert, like you can really kind of go down the wrong rabbit hole and it can be so costly, you know.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas if you just went to an expert to begin with, like it would, it probably would have saved you so much more money, you know, you'll actually see results.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm very thankful for that.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_01: But Nikki, thank you so much for letting me pick your brain.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: This was so enlightening.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I can't wait for part two.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_01: There's gonna be a part two to this.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: So for everyone listening, definitely tune in for that.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: But this has been so helpful for me, even, you know, just trying to understand this world of ads because I I really am not the greatest at it.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: So well Ecte, I really appreciate the time.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me today.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, it's it's been a pleasure.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_01: And for everyone tuning in, please chime in with your questions, anything that, you know, maybe sparked your interest, anything you're curious about.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: We'd love to hear from you.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_01: And we can definitely present it to Nikki's team, see if we can get an answer for you guys.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_01: But thank you, and I will be back next time.
• 24:48
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