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FRIDAY NIGHT SPECIAL: Lady Diddy Wants Out of Jail, Ghislaine Maxwell Appeals Conviction · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Four people, four souls lost
0:12
Speaker 1: in connection with the Jeffrey Epstein sex trafficking case. Virginia Geoffrey,
0:20
Speaker 1: one of them her body just found. Does it never end?
0:27
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. I want to
0:30
Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. In the last days,
0:34
Speaker 1: we learned Epstein's hints person his so called madam. That's
0:39
Speaker 1: certainly putting perfume on the pig. Elaine Maxwell, the jailed
0:44
Speaker 1: Epstein accomplice, is appealing her conviction all the way to
0:51
Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court. It never ends, and yes you're
0:56
Speaker 1: paying for it. Again. This is Crime Stories. I want
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Speaker 1: to thank you for being with us on our Friday
1:03
Speaker 1: night special. Tonight we take a look how can Eulaane
1:08
Speaker 1: Maxwell fix her mouth to appeal to the US Supreme Court?
1:13
Speaker 1: And again on our dime. Remember Maxwell actually went. I
1:19
Speaker 1: visited the scene to play grounds in New York and
1:25
Speaker 1: many urban areas. The public playgrounds are fenced in chainlink.
1:32
Speaker 1: They're usually asphalt like you know, basketball court, outdoor basketball court,
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Speaker 1: and you can pull up in her case in a
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Speaker 1: limo beside the playground and she would actually spot girls
1:47
Speaker 1: at recess on the playground such as it is to
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Speaker 1: lure them, to entrap them into becoming sex slaves for
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Speaker 1: her love Jeffrey Epstein. And now she's appealing her conviction
2:05
Speaker 1: all the way to the US Supreme Court. What happened?
2:11
Speaker 1: What do we know about what was proven against Elaine Maxwell? Now,
2:18
Speaker 1: to crime online dot COM's Levi Paige Levi, we know
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Speaker 1: what Epstein did about much of the molestation of young girls.
2:28
Speaker 1: He committed and got away with it because he was rich.
2:32
Speaker 1: But what about the women who enabled him? Who is
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Speaker 1: Elaine Maxwell?
2:38
Speaker 2: Jallaine Maxwell. Nancy is a woman who is from the UK.
2:43
Speaker 2: Her father is very rich and powerful from there, she
2:46
Speaker 2: inherited a lot of money After his death, she came
2:49
Speaker 2: to the United States, New York City, and she was
2:52
Speaker 2: a socialite. She hung out with Ivanka Trump. She met
2:56
Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein, would hang around with him, and it is
2:58
Speaker 2: alleged she would find underage girls under eighteen tell them that, Hey,
3:05
Speaker 2: I have a friend. His name is Jeffrey Epstein. He
3:08
Speaker 2: needs a masseuse, will pay you to come give him
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Speaker 2: a massage. It wasn't a massage. They were raped. And
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Speaker 2: she is the woman that allegedly entrapped these young women
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Speaker 2: in his evil plot.
3:22
Speaker 1: Take a listen now to Netflix Filthy Rich.
3:28
Speaker 3: How did you meet mister Revski like two years ago
3:32
Speaker 3: or so?
3:33
Speaker 4: About two years ago?
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Speaker 5: Yeah, when you first.
3:35
Speaker 4: Met him, Yeah, you were seventeen. Then what is it
3:40
Speaker 4: that you were told you would have to do?
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Speaker 1: Give him a massage? Yeah, well that's some massage that
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Speaker 1: ended up in molesting young girls. To actually Willcott a
3:49
Speaker 1: judge and trial lawyer, court TV anchor, you're hearing one
3:53
Speaker 1: Epstein victims speaking to law enforcement. But there were multiple
3:59
Speaker 1: young girls that have the same story. I mean, how
4:03
Speaker 1: likely is it that multiple young girls have the same story,
4:07
Speaker 1: girls that are separated in time and space and don't
4:10
Speaker 1: know each other.
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Speaker 6: Yeah, it's not at all likely. There's so many different
4:16
Speaker 6: pieces aspects of this that really are bothersome to me,
4:20
Speaker 6: and I don't understand all of these girls do have
4:23
Speaker 6: the same story. If you have an adult that's assisting,
4:26
Speaker 6: that's getting, that's soliciting, that adult should have been charged
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Speaker 6: with child and endangerment, accessories, soliciting any of those things.
4:33
Speaker 6: The other thing, though, is he was smart in a criminal,
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Speaker 6: disgusting way that he would use miners to try to
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Speaker 6: get other girls.
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Speaker 1: Well, apparently, according to reports, he didn't just use miners
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Speaker 1: to recruit their friends for underage sex. He used an accomplished,
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Speaker 1: educated woman, Gillan Maxwell. Take a listen to this.
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Speaker 4: In two thousand and five, the parent to a young
5:00
Speaker 4: girl called the police station.
5:02
Speaker 7: Well, Hi, how are you.
5:03
Speaker 8: I'm good.
5:04
Speaker 9: I'm returning to a call.
5:05
Speaker 7: I I apologize.
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Speaker 10: I don't know exactly what four it's okay.
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Speaker 11: It was an incident that occurred maybe like three three
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Speaker 11: and a half.
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Speaker 5: Weeks ago with one of my stepdaughters.
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Speaker 1: One day at cool guys would a.
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Speaker 7: Fight and she had over three hundred dollars on.
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Speaker 2: Her So after asking on asking on, asking.
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Speaker 10: Out what was going on, found out that ended.
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Speaker 5: Up being that they went upon beach to a gentleman's
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Speaker 5: house and they start off by giving the sentiment a
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Speaker 5: massage and he pays them if he likes them, and
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Speaker 5: he thinks that they're pretty enough to keep some eys.
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Speaker 12: To do other things.
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Speaker 13: Okay, I was if I said.
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Speaker 7: There was an investigation or if you guys had any world, I.
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Speaker 3: Think, well, this is the first hearing of it.
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Speaker 9: Okay, what I will need is more information. Would your
5:43
Speaker 9: steptor would be willing to come in to provide me
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Speaker 9: with the statement.
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Speaker 1: This is a two thousand and five recorded conversation with
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Speaker 1: a police officer where Officer Pagan returns a call to
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Speaker 1: a grown woman making a complaint two thousand and five
6:00
Speaker 1: billionaire Jeffrey Epstein recruiting young girls from school. From school,
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Speaker 1: She says her stepdaughter has this huge wad of money,
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Speaker 1: and that the stepdaughter finally admits to her she went
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Speaker 1: to this rich guy's house. Epstein gave him a massage
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Speaker 1: and then it escalated to other things. The woman who
6:21
Speaker 1: allegedly made his underage sex that's called statutory rape possible.
6:28
Speaker 1: A jet setter millionaire in her own right, Gillan Maxwell,
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Speaker 1: who apparently in the Last Days brags it comes out
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Speaker 1: quote look for Jeffrey's type and I bring him home.
6:43
Speaker 1: This is according to Prince Andrew of Britain's cousin tells
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Speaker 1: how Gillan Maxwell brags that she recruited young underage girls
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Speaker 1: for Epstein from trailer parks and that she Gillan Maxwell
7:00
Speaker 1: intent on marrying Jeffrey Epstein. She would go out and
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Speaker 1: recruit young girls to be statutory raped by a billionaire,
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Speaker 1: and why in the world would she want to marry
7:16
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein. Take a listen to Jeffrey Epstein himself on Netflix.
7:23
Speaker 4: Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
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Speaker 14: Yes?
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Speaker 4: What was the crime of which you were convicted? Two counts?
7:33
Speaker 15: One soliciting prostitution and procuring a minor for prostitution?
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Speaker 4: Did you in fact commit those acts? I'm going to
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Speaker 4: invokee my fifth Amendment? Right, How many times have you
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Speaker 4: solicited a miner for prostitution? Same answer? How many times
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Speaker 4: have you solicited a miner for prostitution in the state
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Speaker 4: of Florida? The same answer? Have you ever solicited a
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Speaker 4: miner for prostitution of the Virgin Islands? Same answer? That
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Speaker 4: is the you are invoting your fifth Amendment? Yes, right, yes,
8:07
Speaker 4: missus skill. Have you ever solicited for prostitution in New York?
8:11
Speaker 4: Same answer? Have you ever soled solicited for prostitution in
8:15
Speaker 4: New Mexico? Same answer? Have you ever solicited for prostitution
8:19
Speaker 4: in Paris? Same answer? Have you ever solicited a miner
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Speaker 4: for prostitution anywhere? At any time? I'm going to certainly
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Speaker 4: Righte's taking you out here. We're going to go through everything.
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Speaker 4: So you are terminating the deposition. If it is time
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Speaker 4: for the recess of the deposition.
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Speaker 1: As if he had not solicited prostitution with a minor
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Speaker 1: a child in all of those places in New York, Paris, London,
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Speaker 1: the Island and the Caribbean, he would have said, no,
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Speaker 1: I haven't. If someone came up and said, hey, are
8:53
Speaker 1: you guilty of soliciting prostitution with the miner, and I'm like,
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Speaker 1: I would say no, absolutely not. Instead he had votes
8:59
Speaker 1: his right to the Fifth Amendment, your right to remain silent.
9:05
Speaker 1: This is after already pleading guilty to prostitution with a
9:09
Speaker 1: miner in Florida, where he got a slap on the wrist.
9:13
Speaker 1: But the billionaire pedophile Jeffrey Epstein is one issue. Another
9:19
Speaker 1: can of worms is the socialite millionaire in her own right,
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Speaker 1: Gillan Maxwell, who got the girls for him to doctor
9:27
Speaker 1: Bethany Marshall. Did you hear where a cousin of Prince
9:31
Speaker 1: Andrew We know it now to be? Christina Oxenburg talked
9:36
Speaker 1: about how Gillen Maxwell bragged that she would procure, as
9:41
Speaker 1: she said, procure underage girls for Epstein and very often
9:46
Speaker 1: would focus on trailer parks to find his victims. Did
9:52
Speaker 1: you hear that? It makes me so mad I wanted
9:54
Speaker 1: she and Nail in half.
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Speaker 16: Okay, Nancy. I thought about the pattern of of child
10:01
Speaker 16: sex crimes and how they're similar, whether it's Michael Jackson
10:06
Speaker 16: or we have Harvey Weinstein, or we have Jeffrey Epstein.
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Speaker 16: So Gilan Maxwell found women who were financially vulnerable. Michael
10:15
Speaker 16: Jackson found children from poor families. Harvey Weinstein found women
10:21
Speaker 16: who were wanting a role in a movie script. They
10:24
Speaker 16: all entice them and offer something big, like for a
10:28
Speaker 16: thirteen or fourteen year old, two or three hundred dollars
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Speaker 16: for a massage. I mean that's everything. You could go
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Speaker 16: buy a purse, you go buy a pair of shoes.
10:36
Speaker 16: Michael Jackson built like a whole scene park to lore children.
10:42
Speaker 16: Weinstein offered them these huge movie roles. You can see
10:46
Speaker 16: the pattern is the same from perpetrator to perpetrator. They
10:50
Speaker 16: always find victims that are at the fringe of society
10:53
Speaker 16: and they think won't tell on them. You know, everybody's
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Speaker 16: surprised that a woman like Gilan Maxwell would procure these
11:00
Speaker 16: girls and then want to marry Jeffrey Epstein. But it
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Speaker 16: is not uncommon for women to make crimes against children
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Speaker 16: in concert with the man they love.
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Speaker 6: Look at children who are molested.
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Speaker 16: By stepfathers, and the mothers stand by and do nothing,
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Speaker 16: or they go and they find rape victims for their
11:20
Speaker 16: husbands or their partners. Women do act in concert with
11:24
Speaker 16: men all the time. In this case, it's just more
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Speaker 16: dramatic because there is so much money. I do practice
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Speaker 16: in Beverly Hills where there's a lot of money, and
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Speaker 16: with there's a lot of money, there's a lot of
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Speaker 16: cover ups.
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Speaker 1: The woman who made it possible for him to locate
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Speaker 1: and recruit little girls to rape and molest and pay
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Speaker 1: off and keep silent. Her name is Glaine Maxwell. Take
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Speaker 1: a listen now to Jeffrey Epstein speaking on the Netflix
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Speaker 1: special Filthy Rich emphasis on.
12:00
Speaker 17: Let's talk about Jingo one and two. Virginia Roberts. Do
12:06
Speaker 17: you know Virginia Roberts? So she's again.
12:12
Speaker 1: Who Virginia Roberts?
12:14
Speaker 4: Can you spell it.
12:17
Speaker 1: Common spelling Virginia.
12:19
Speaker 4: Like the states? Can you spell it? Will you please? Roberts?
12:22
Speaker 4: How's what's the last name?
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Speaker 17: How's the spelling.
12:26
Speaker 1: R O B E R T S.
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Speaker 4: I believe isn't it true that you.
12:31
Speaker 17: And Glenn Maxwell celebrated her sixteenth birthday with her and
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Speaker 17: had sex with her on that.
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Speaker 15: Day farm compound, confusing an argument in the passing.
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Speaker 17: I'd like to answer that question, but today I'm gonna
12:49
Speaker 17: have to assert my sixth Amendment rights, my fifth Amendment rights.
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Speaker 17: Is it true that you forced Virginia Roberts to have
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Speaker 17: sex with numerous friends of yours?
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Speaker 18: An a hole?
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Speaker 1: Can you spell Virginia?
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Speaker 8: No?
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Speaker 1: Spell it? No spell it, he says to opposing counsel,
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Speaker 1: and the last name Roberts. Spell it? What a jackass? Well,
13:18
Speaker 1: he invoked the wrong amendment. He's sixth, but he meant fifth.
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Speaker 1: He corrected himself. But he's making co counsel opposing counsel
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Speaker 1: spell the name of one of his alleged victims. I
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Speaker 1: want you to listen to what this girl, Virginia Roberts says. Listen.
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Speaker 11: I first met Prince Andrew March tenth, two thousand and
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Speaker 11: one in London at Gillan's townhouse.
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Speaker 1: He knocked on the door.
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Speaker 11: He came inside Gilen's townhouse, and we're sitting there having tea.
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Speaker 11: Ellen has his favorite guessing game that she does. She
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Speaker 11: goes Prince Andrew, how well do you think Virginia's and
14:03
Speaker 11: he said seventeen and She's like, oh, you're right, and
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Speaker 11: you know they made a little joke about it. It's like, oh,
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Speaker 11: my daughters aren't far from your age.
14:12
Speaker 8: You know.
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Speaker 1: My daughter's a little bit younger than you.
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Speaker 11: We went out for the night club Tramp in London
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Speaker 11: and he dances and he's profusely sweating over.
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Speaker 1: Me and it was disgusting. She's talking about Prince Andrew
14:29
Speaker 1: hooked up with Prince Andrew, who she says had sex
14:32
Speaker 1: with her here she is a minor. Andrew denies it
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Speaker 1: Sweats Buckets on TV, but then says she had to
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Speaker 1: be lying about their encounter. I call it child rape
14:44
Speaker 1: because at that time he had an ailment where he
14:47
Speaker 1: couldn't sweat. That was actually his defense. I want to
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Speaker 1: go to you to Ashley Willcott, judge and trial lawyer,
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Speaker 1: court TV anchor Ashley, when you hear statement that is
15:01
Speaker 1: so rich in detail, it gives credence to it. And
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Speaker 1: the fact that she says Gillan Maxwell introduces her to
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Speaker 1: Prince Andrew at this location. Then they go to club
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Speaker 1: Tramp where he came on to her. Andrew sweated profusely
15:17
Speaker 1: and there turns up to me. Although Andrew denies knowing
15:20
Speaker 1: her a picture of her with Andrew with his arm
15:25
Speaker 1: around her after Andrew says I've never met her. The
15:30
Speaker 1: details that she described Ashley, that Prince Andrew said, hey,
15:34
Speaker 1: you're about the age of my two daughters. That detail
15:39
Speaker 1: to me has the ring of truth absolutely.
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Speaker 6: So, first of all, I always believe a juvenile a child.
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Speaker 6: This is a child, absolutely. Second of all, you're right
15:50
Speaker 6: all of those specific details. When people lie that don't
15:54
Speaker 6: make up all of those little specific details, how are
15:57
Speaker 6: they going to come up with something to say? Oh,
16:00
Speaker 6: swating profusely?
16:01
Speaker 1: Long story short. According to the source Oxenburgh, Gillen Maxwell
16:06
Speaker 1: brags to Prince Andrew's cousin she recruited girls from trailer
16:10
Speaker 1: parks in Palm Beach to bring them to Jeffrey Epstein.
16:16
Speaker 1: Oxenburgh says Maxwell told her I look for what I
16:21
Speaker 1: know is Epstein's type, and I bring them home. That
16:26
Speaker 1: she Gillan Maxwell was quote proud to be a recruiter
16:31
Speaker 1: for the pedophile during a meeting with Oxenburgh, who was
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Speaker 1: an author and a socialite who was brought in, I
16:39
Speaker 1: guess to write Gillen Maxwell's memoir. Oxenburgh claims that Maxwell
16:46
Speaker 1: was not dating Epstein, although she wanted to marry Epstein.
16:57
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace in the Last Days Epstein
17:03
Speaker 1: accomplice Julianne Maxwell appeals her conviction all the way to
17:08
Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court. What do we know about the
17:13
Speaker 1: evidence against Maxwell?
17:16
Speaker 14: Operation GGO Get Gilaine Out was started by family friend
17:21
Speaker 14: Brian Bastram. He claims that Maxwell's human rights are being violated,
17:25
Speaker 14: that she is forced to wear paper clothing with no
17:27
Speaker 14: broad due to the risk of suicide. He also claims
17:30
Speaker 14: that since her incarceration, Maxwell a vegan, has dropped twenty
17:34
Speaker 14: five pounds due to improper diet. Bashram claims that when
17:37
Speaker 14: Maxwell complained about losing so much weight, prison officials removed
17:41
Speaker 14: her skills to stop her from weighing herself. He says
17:44
Speaker 14: that prison guards have stopped talking to Maxwell while she
17:46
Speaker 14: spends her days isolated in a nine foot by seven
17:49
Speaker 14: foot cell. Bashram says that isolation is being extended to
17:52
Speaker 14: her mail as well. He claims that family letters are
17:55
Speaker 14: being vindictively not given to her. Brian Bashram says he
17:59
Speaker 14: finds it appalling that Maxwell was still in custody when
18:02
Speaker 14: other sex offenders like Harvey Weinstein and Bill Cosby were
18:05
Speaker 14: granted bail. Maxwell has denied all six counts relating to
18:08
Speaker 14: child sex trafficking, procurement, and perjury.
18:11
Speaker 1: Here you're hearing our friend Dave Matt from Crime online
18:13
Speaker 1: dot Com maybe has something to do with Weinstein's victims
18:17
Speaker 1: being adult as opposed to Epstein and Gillen Maxwell's alleged
18:22
Speaker 1: victims being children at the time they were sex trafficked. Again,
18:27
Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Gray, so I want to thank you for
18:28
Speaker 1: being with us this as Operation g G Get gill
18:34
Speaker 1: and Maxwell out of jail is underway? Will it happen?
18:38
Speaker 1: Joining me an all star panel to break you down
18:40
Speaker 1: and put it back together again. First of all, high
18:42
Speaker 1: profile lawyer out of Seattle joining me. Trial lawyer Ann Bremner,
18:49
Speaker 1: former prosecutor, also with me and renow to New York
18:52
Speaker 1: psychologists joining me from Manhattan. Karen Start at Karenstark dot com.
18:56
Speaker 1: That's Karen with a c former special agent with the FBI,
19:00
Speaker 1: screen writer on Criminal Minds, Bobby Chacone. Also with me.
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Speaker 1: Melissa Cron, an investigative journalist and author. Melissa is so
19:09
Speaker 1: great to have you with us. Melissa also the author
19:13
Speaker 1: of a brand new book about Epstein. And an upcoming
19:17
Speaker 1: Epstein book called Epstein Inc. Melissa cronin what do you
19:21
Speaker 1: make of the news that there is a movement underfoot
19:25
Speaker 1: to have Gillen Maxwell sprung from jail?
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Speaker 7: So this man, Brian Bosham said that he finds it
19:31
Speaker 7: appalling how she's being treated in prison, and anyone who
19:35
Speaker 7: knows anything about this case finds it appalling that someone
19:38
Speaker 7: would think there was any chance this woman should be released.
19:42
Speaker 7: It's just another example of how delusional she is.
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Speaker 1: I mean, Epstein himself was not released on bond with
19:50
Speaker 1: all of the claims made against him. She's part and
19:53
Speaker 1: parcel of all those claims. I think part of it
19:55
Speaker 1: has to do with that sweetheart deal he got down
19:58
Speaker 1: in PAULM Beach when he basically had house arrest for
20:02
Speaker 1: part of the day and could go in and out
20:04
Speaker 1: of the jail at his will. There was a parade
20:07
Speaker 1: of young girls going in and out of his office
20:09
Speaker 1: when he was on day passes from the jail. So
20:14
Speaker 1: I'm sure that they're concerned Gilan Maxwell will either take
20:19
Speaker 1: off or end up dead if she is released. What
20:23
Speaker 1: do you make of her claims that she is being
20:27
Speaker 1: let me just say, single out for bad treatment.
20:30
Speaker 7: Like I said before, I think she's totally delusional because
20:34
Speaker 7: she just has to realize that she might have gotten
20:36
Speaker 7: away with it for years so far, but now the
20:39
Speaker 7: hand of justice has come down on her and she's
20:41
Speaker 7: not getting away with it. She's not going to get
20:43
Speaker 7: special treatment, she's not going to get her contour and
20:46
Speaker 7: her vegan diet. She just has to wake up to
20:49
Speaker 7: the reality that her time has come and she's going
20:52
Speaker 7: to have to pay for what she did.
20:53
Speaker 1: What do you who is Brian Basham. I only know
20:57
Speaker 1: that he has a family friend of Gilan Maxwell, who
21:00
Speaker 1: is the one reporting from behind jailhouse walls that she
21:03
Speaker 1: has lost so much weight that her skills were taken away.
21:07
Speaker 1: I've got news for everybody. I don't think inmates have
21:10
Speaker 1: scales and their jail cell. That's a load of bs.
21:14
Speaker 1: That's the technical legal term. But I don't think that
21:18
Speaker 1: you and Bremner. You're the high profile lawyer out of Seattle.
21:21
Speaker 1: I have never once in all the jails I've ever
21:24
Speaker 1: been in, seen an inmate with a set of scales.
21:28
Speaker 8: Great mind sinkle like Nancio. That's the first thing I thought.
21:31
Speaker 8: It was, like, I've never heard of an inmate having
21:33
Speaker 8: scales in their cell and having them taken away because
21:35
Speaker 8: they're losing weight. I mean, that just does not ring true.
21:38
Speaker 8: And if it's true, it's the first.
21:40
Speaker 1: What a big fat lie. Now isn't it true? In
21:45
Speaker 1: Bremner a former prosecutor but now civil and defense lawyer,
21:50
Speaker 1: isn't it true? And that had the close of every
21:54
Speaker 1: felony case, the jury is instructed by the judge that
22:01
Speaker 1: when a person, a witness, be it a defendant, a cop,
22:05
Speaker 1: doesn't matter, is caught line under oath, even if it's
22:10
Speaker 1: about something small. The jury will then have the decision
22:14
Speaker 1: the opportunity if they wish to discount all that witness's
22:19
Speaker 1: testimony in toto in total, if that witness is caught line.
22:24
Speaker 1: Would you agree or disagree that that is the state
22:26
Speaker 1: of the law.
22:26
Speaker 8: I agree completely. It's the false in one, false in all.
22:29
Speaker 8: It's the Latin term I think is falsest in union,
22:32
Speaker 8: falsest in pluran.
22:33
Speaker 1: Well, you're up in the game, thrown you Latin phrase it?
22:35
Speaker 1: If that me? So, let me break it down. If
22:39
Speaker 1: this is being reported by the so called family friend
22:43
Speaker 1: that her scale has been taken out of her jail cell,
22:47
Speaker 1: there is no way in hubl an inmate and a
22:51
Speaker 1: high security CI Correctional institute is going to have a scale.
22:55
Speaker 1: It'll take about a New York minute for one of
22:58
Speaker 1: those inmates to pick that up and back a warden,
23:01
Speaker 1: a trustee or another inmate right in the skull and
23:05
Speaker 1: kill them right there with the scales. Okay, So that's BS.
23:11
Speaker 1: And if he's lying about that, or someone is lying
23:14
Speaker 1: about that, then why should I believe any of this? BS?
23:17
Speaker 10: No, I completely agree.
23:18
Speaker 8: I'm not going to use the Latin again. But you
23:20
Speaker 8: can't believe anything they say. I mean, that is so preposterous.
23:22
Speaker 8: I mean, and she can't wear a bra, but she
23:24
Speaker 8: can have a scale. You know, I don't get it.
23:26
Speaker 1: So we're all s you know here, because Bobby, you count.
23:30
Speaker 1: I knew that wouldn't take long ago ahead, Bobby.
23:32
Speaker 12: I mean, it's so called I mean this so called friends,
23:35
Speaker 12: family friend that he's being described. I mean, I think
23:37
Speaker 12: he's also been described as a PR professional. So I
23:41
Speaker 12: think that he might be one of these crisis management
23:44
Speaker 12: guys that's brought in to start this campaign. And they're
23:47
Speaker 12: tolding it a campaign as it's a grassroots movement of
23:52
Speaker 12: people that want her out. When in all probability she
23:55
Speaker 12: is paying for this service. She's paying probably for this
23:58
Speaker 12: family friend here professional to kind of start this whole movement,
24:03
Speaker 12: if you will. And I don't think there's a whole
24:05
Speaker 12: bunch of people behind this movement.
24:07
Speaker 1: She is saying that she is being singled out because
24:10
Speaker 1: of vindictive treatment is being heaped upon her. Back to
24:15
Speaker 1: Melissa Crownin, an investigative journalists who has already written one book,
24:18
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein Dead Man Tale, No Tales, and she has
24:22
Speaker 1: an upcoming book, Epstein Inc. Coming out I believe in November, Melissa,
24:27
Speaker 1: what is at the crux of the movement to get
24:30
Speaker 1: this alleged child sex trafficker out from behind bars?
24:33
Speaker 7: Naty, It's very important for everyone to understand that, as
24:37
Speaker 7: he said, this is not a family friend. This is
24:41
Speaker 7: a PR professional that has been working for Delaine for
24:44
Speaker 7: more than ten years. He was actually brought in as
24:47
Speaker 7: a third party on the Jufrey versus Maxwell lawsuits years
24:52
Speaker 7: ago because the attorney's found emails between Delaine and the
24:57
Speaker 7: PR company on which he was c seed. Now the
25:00
Speaker 7: PR company is called Acuity Reputation and they have offices
25:03
Speaker 7: in London also in Moscow. The founder is on the
25:07
Speaker 7: advisory board of the Moscow International Finance Committee. So that's
25:12
Speaker 7: a whole other thread that people might want to pull
25:14
Speaker 7: on in the coming week. But I think it's just
25:17
Speaker 7: a distraction technique. The fact is that day after day,
25:21
Speaker 7: week after weeks, more victims come forward to tell their stories,
25:24
Speaker 7: and she's not going to be able to achieve justice
25:26
Speaker 7: this time.
25:28
Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen to our friend Mela Linghi at
25:31
Speaker 1: CBS News. Listen. She had his money, he had her contacts.
25:37
Speaker 1: They made a great group that way. But Glynn was
25:41
Speaker 1: much more snivy and smart than Epstein ever was.
25:44
Speaker 5: At one point during the deposition, Giuffray's attorney, Sigrid McCauley,
25:48
Speaker 5: appeared to ask Maxwell about the now infamous picture of
25:52
Speaker 5: Giuffrey and the UK's Prince Andrew. Geffray says she had
25:56
Speaker 5: sex with the Prince at Maxwell's London home that night.
25:59
Speaker 5: The Prince has repeatly denied guphrase allegations, and Maxwell called
26:03
Speaker 5: Giphra's account of the incident an obvious lie. In the deposition,
26:07
Speaker 5: Maxwell said Guphrey characterized things took place in my bathroom.
26:11
Speaker 5: In the bathtub itself, the tub is too small for
26:15
Speaker 5: any type of activity whatsoever.
26:17
Speaker 1: Okay, let me understand this. She is claiming that Virginia
26:23
Speaker 1: Robert's statements are false because her Gillen Maxwell's tub is
26:27
Speaker 1: not big enough to have sex in. Really, because I'm
26:31
Speaker 1: pretty sure if people can have sex in the bathroom
26:34
Speaker 1: on a plane, they can do it in a bathtub.
26:38
Speaker 1: I don't care how big the bathtub or how small
26:41
Speaker 1: the bathtub is. I mean, I'm not an engineer from
26:43
Speaker 1: Georgia Tech or MIT, but I can figure that much out.
26:48
Speaker 1: You know, it's very interesting. Bobby Chaconne is joining me,
26:52
Speaker 1: former special agent FBI screenwriter Criminal minds. What my longtime
26:56
Speaker 1: friend Ricky Kleman over at CBS is saying. Maxwell can't
27:01
Speaker 1: just say Virginia Jeffries is lying. Lie, she's lying. You
27:05
Speaker 1: got to come up with more than that and the
27:07
Speaker 1: size of your bathtub because there are multiple young girls,
27:11
Speaker 1: not just Virginia Jeffries. That's saying the same thing. Maxwell
27:16
Speaker 1: recruited them sometimes from near the playground at the middle
27:20
Speaker 1: school to give Epstein massages, which turned sexual. It's more
27:26
Speaker 1: than just Virginia Jeffries.
27:28
Speaker 12: Bobby Chickne, that's right, Nancy, And actually I did the
27:31
Speaker 12: tend Georgia Tech. So I am one of those people
27:33
Speaker 12: you referred to. But you know you're right. When they
27:36
Speaker 12: can't attack you know, the basic facts of the case.
27:39
Speaker 12: When you have so many victims coming forth telling very
27:42
Speaker 12: similar stories about the recruitment and about the behavior that
27:45
Speaker 12: they were subjected to, you have to start nit picking
27:48
Speaker 12: at different things. That's why they want the names of
27:51
Speaker 12: the victims now published so they can harass them. This
27:53
Speaker 12: is a very astile, very aggressive defense team that Maxwell had.
27:58
Speaker 12: You can see it as far about is this deposition
28:01
Speaker 12: that she gave, how hostile she is, and you can
28:03
Speaker 12: see through their motions now how hostile they're being towards
28:06
Speaker 12: the victim.
28:07
Speaker 13: They have to go after the victims.
28:08
Speaker 12: Because it's the only thing they have because they can't
28:10
Speaker 12: attack the facts.
28:12
Speaker 1: But it's still going to be a very difficult task.
28:15
Speaker 1: Maybe one victim can be impeached, but when you've got
28:19
Speaker 1: multiple victims separated in time and space, all saying the
28:23
Speaker 1: same thing, it's going to be much more difficult to
28:26
Speaker 1: discredit them. Although it happened in the Michael Jackson case
28:30
Speaker 1: and Bremner, all the boy victims were all discredited and
28:36
Speaker 1: they were generally saying the same thing, Am Bremner.
28:39
Speaker 8: That's exactly what happened. Nancy and I saw it front
28:42
Speaker 8: row seat, and that trial. You and I covered that
28:43
Speaker 8: every day, and that's exactly what happened. There were multiple
28:47
Speaker 8: victims they said the same thing. There was definitely a pattern,
28:51
Speaker 8: and it came in with I don't remember how many
28:54
Speaker 8: boys now, but quite a few, and they were not believed.
28:56
Speaker 1: Apparently, guys. Will all the victims be attack to trial?
29:00
Speaker 1: Will there be a trial, because right now Gilan Maxwell's
29:04
Speaker 1: supporters are starting a movement to get Gilan Maxwell out
29:09
Speaker 1: of jail, the Goo movement. If she gets out to you,
29:16
Speaker 1: Melissa cron An investigative journalist, Gilan Maxwell has three passports
29:20
Speaker 1: that I know of. She I think has remarried. All
29:25
Speaker 1: that's being kept under wraps. She has money, power and
29:30
Speaker 1: privilege at her fingertips and is more than capable of
29:35
Speaker 1: getting a private plane out of here and never coming back.
29:40
Speaker 12: It's true.
29:41
Speaker 7: She's not just capable of finding a private plane, she's
29:43
Speaker 7: capable of flying it herself. She was actually a helicopter
29:47
Speaker 7: pilot for Jeffrey Epstein and buried the victims back and
29:50
Speaker 7: forth from the island. But it's true She is one
29:53
Speaker 7: of the biggest light risks that I've ever seen or
29:55
Speaker 7: heard of in my entire journalistic career because she doesn't
30:00
Speaker 7: have money and connections herself, her entire family does. She
30:03
Speaker 7: has seven living siblings, and two of them, her sisters.
30:07
Speaker 12: Isabelle and Christine.
30:08
Speaker 7: Were actually one of the early founders of the one
30:12
Speaker 7: of the first search engines, so they have times of money.
30:15
Speaker 7: They're millionaires in themselves. She has the French passport, she
30:18
Speaker 7: was born in France, and basically the options are endless
30:23
Speaker 7: for her, and she actually gets out of prison. So
30:25
Speaker 7: I think everyone involved in this case knows that that
30:27
Speaker 7: can't happen.
30:34
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace Julane Maxwell May she wrought
30:42
Speaker 1: in hell. Already four people connected to the Epstein case
30:45
Speaker 1: have committed to suicide, thanks Maxwell, and now she's on
30:51
Speaker 1: her way for her lawyers to argue to the US
30:54
Speaker 1: Supreme Court. It never ends. The pamp for billionaire Jeffrey
31:00
Speaker 1: Say literally trolling the school yard to cut little girls
31:05
Speaker 1: and bring them in for Epstein to molest. All done
31:10
Speaker 1: and said, right, case closed, guilty, Not so fast. Take
31:17
Speaker 1: a listen to our friend Tom Winter.
31:19
Speaker 15: In may Sty tonight in a trial that's centered on
31:22
Speaker 15: sexual abuse. Two jurors revealed they too have experienced abuse
31:26
Speaker 15: their own personal experiences, now pushing Golane Maxwell's attorneys to
31:30
Speaker 15: ask for a new case at issue. Legal experts say
31:34
Speaker 15: whether or not the two were adequately forthcoming about their
31:37
Speaker 15: experiences before trial. A man identifying himself as Scotti David
31:42
Speaker 15: was one of the jurors. He spoke to several media outlets,
31:45
Speaker 15: including The Daily Mail dot com.
31:47
Speaker 4: I don't want to call her a monster.
31:50
Speaker 15: A predator is the right word, David, known as Juror
31:53
Speaker 15: Number fifty, says. Other jurors voiced out about some of
31:56
Speaker 15: the accusers.
31:57
Speaker 19: Some people were like, how can they keep going back?
32:00
Speaker 12: Why would their moms allow them to do that?
32:02
Speaker 19: And I was like, we can't judge them based on
32:04
Speaker 19: what they did or didn't do.
32:06
Speaker 1: They they're fourteen.
32:09
Speaker 12: They don't really have the wherewithal to know really what's
32:13
Speaker 12: right and wrong.
32:13
Speaker 15: A second juror who requested anonymity, told The New York
32:16
Speaker 15: Times they were sexually abused as a child, and that
32:19
Speaker 15: they had also discussed the experience during deliberations.
32:23
Speaker 1: Is the Glaine Maxwell guilty verdict doomed? I say no
32:29
Speaker 1: for legal reasons, will there have to be a new
32:34
Speaker 1: trial with me? Doctor Teresa gil professors psychology, has spent
32:38
Speaker 1: years working with child abste and trauma victims. Joseph Scott Morgan,
32:43
Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
32:46
Speaker 1: Fate on Amazon and host of Bodybags with Joe Scott
32:50
Speaker 1: Morgan on iHeart. Special guest joining us Charlie Langston, editor
32:56
Speaker 1: at Daily Mail with Female and When Yuhright, California prosecutor,
33:01
Speaker 1: author Red Flags at Wendypatrick PhD dot com and host
33:05
Speaker 1: of Today with Doctor Wendy on kc b Q. First
33:08
Speaker 1: of you, Charlie Langston, before I get into the legalities
33:12
Speaker 1: of whether this requires a whole new trial for Gelaine Maxwell,
33:18
Speaker 1: who no doubt did it over and over and over,
33:23
Speaker 1: even molesting some of the little girls herself, tell me
33:27
Speaker 1: what's happening this? Does you know? Charlie? I find this
33:31
Speaker 1: really hard to believe because I never tried a case
33:35
Speaker 1: ever without asking the entire panel. Do any of you
33:41
Speaker 1: know anyone, even if it's yourself, a neighbor, a family member,
33:47
Speaker 1: that have been a victim of a crime. Have any
33:50
Speaker 1: of you been a victim of a crime, and the
33:56
Speaker 1: converse to that is, do you know anybody that's been convicted?
34:01
Speaker 1: Anybody can't hand have you been convicted? So I find
34:04
Speaker 1: it really hard to believe that these high profile lawyers
34:08
Speaker 1: and veteran prosecutors did not ask that question.
34:11
Speaker 13: Well, I think it's worth pointing out that we don't
34:14
Speaker 13: actually know for sure right now that that question was
34:18
Speaker 13: not asked. What we do know is that Juras have
34:23
Speaker 13: said that they were not asked specifically whether they were
34:28
Speaker 13: victims of sexual abuse. So the question is whether they
34:33
Speaker 13: interpreted the question of have you ever committed a crime?
34:36
Speaker 13: Have you ever been the victim of a crime. It
34:39
Speaker 13: may be that they did not interpret that question correctly
34:43
Speaker 13: and did not feel that their experiences with sexual abuse
34:47
Speaker 13: were the correct answer to that. So, you know, if
34:51
Speaker 13: they were the victims of sexual abuse and their abuses
34:53
Speaker 13: were never convicted, they may not have felt that it
34:56
Speaker 13: was a crime that was committed. If that makes sense.
34:59
Speaker 1: Yes, I see what you're saying. They could have been
35:03
Speaker 1: molested or abused and not realized that that was a
35:07
Speaker 1: crime if it were never prosecuted. I think long story short,
35:13
Speaker 1: do you know that song? Winnie Patrick, California prosecutor. I
35:17
Speaker 1: feel a bad moon coming. I feel about rising. I
35:21
Speaker 1: feel a bad moon rising. You know there's trouble on
35:26
Speaker 1: the way. Charlie Langston with US dailymail dot com. How
35:31
Speaker 1: many jurors do we think we have right now that
35:34
Speaker 1: are coming out?
35:35
Speaker 13: We believe that there are at least three. However, there
35:38
Speaker 13: is a fourth durer whose sources tell us is also
35:43
Speaker 13: under question and may have also been the victim of
35:46
Speaker 13: sexual abuse. So as we heard the first DURA who
35:49
Speaker 13: said that they were the victim of sexual abuse with
35:51
Speaker 13: Scotti David, he spoke to us about his experiences, a
35:56
Speaker 13: second jura, who is remaining anonymous, has spoken to The
35:59
Speaker 13: New York Times, and we reported over the weekend that
36:03
Speaker 13: a third DURA has been found by Gie Lane's legal
36:07
Speaker 13: team to have experienced sexual abuse. And the really big
36:12
Speaker 13: issue here is that both Scottie David and the second
36:15
Speaker 13: anonymous duror have admitted that they spoke about their own
36:19
Speaker 13: experiences with sexual abuse during deliberations, and both of those
36:23
Speaker 13: jurors have said that they believed that their stories helped
36:27
Speaker 13: to influence the way that the other jurors went about
36:31
Speaker 13: their deliberations.
36:32
Speaker 1: Here's one hold on just a moment I want you
36:35
Speaker 1: to hear durre Our Scottie David speaking to dailymail dot
36:40
Speaker 1: com rakat c. You decided to share your story.
36:44
Speaker 4: That's something that has used to yes too. In the questionnaire,
36:48
Speaker 4: something that you people are aware of when you were
36:50
Speaker 4: selected as a juror.
36:52
Speaker 19: No, they don't ask your sexual abuse history. They didn't
36:55
Speaker 19: ask him in the questionnaire.
36:57
Speaker 7: I thought in the questionaire there was a question that
36:59
Speaker 7: asked you were a victim or if you were a friend.
37:01
Speaker 4: Or that's a victim, appreciate It was some forty eight.
37:10
Speaker 9: I don't remember.
37:11
Speaker 1: Somebody said you the questionaire today and there was a question.
37:15
Speaker 4: Interesting.
37:17
Speaker 13: I mean, I guess when did you fail them that question?
37:20
Speaker 19: I definitely on the first day of jury selection. I
37:24
Speaker 19: would have definitely marked yes. But I honestly don't remember
37:27
Speaker 19: that question.
37:28
Speaker 1: You're not the sun. No. No, I mean, I know
37:31
Speaker 1: my face is rights. I can fill the blood, but
37:33
Speaker 1: I honestly.
37:34
Speaker 19: That's why I answered it that way. I don't remember
37:36
Speaker 19: it being there, but I did answer. I definitely remember
37:41
Speaker 19: a family or relative or something, but being sexually abused.
37:44
Speaker 4: I was honest on all my questions.
37:47
Speaker 1: Okay, So he sounds a little unclear on what he remembers. Okay,
37:53
Speaker 1: back to you, Wendy Patrick, California prosecutor. Jurors always talk
37:58
Speaker 1: about their own experienperiences in jer our deliberation, in jury deliberations.
38:02
Speaker 1: That's not uncommon. We expect that to happen. So tell
38:06
Speaker 1: me what you see as the big issue here, Wendy Patrick.
38:10
Speaker 10: I think the big issue is how these jurors were
38:13
Speaker 10: interpreting sexual abuse. You know. I know that if we
38:16
Speaker 10: don't break down that term as we often do in deliberations,
38:20
Speaker 10: if it's actually part of what's charged, if we simply
38:23
Speaker 10: ask them in dear and let it hang out there,
38:25
Speaker 10: I can tell you many jurors think it means forced
38:27
Speaker 10: inner course. They don't think about it as being touching, masturbation,
38:32
Speaker 10: some of the you hate to say, lesser forms of abuse,
38:35
Speaker 10: But we have to put them on a spectrum somewhere,
38:37
Speaker 10: because if jurors are honestly envisioning the rape scenarios, when
38:41
Speaker 10: they hear a word like sexual abuse, that kind of
38:44
Speaker 10: a term, they're not going to disclose some other types
38:47
Speaker 10: of abuse until they get in a deliberation room. So
38:51
Speaker 10: this may be legally significant because it wouldn't necessarily indicate
38:55
Speaker 10: dishonesty during the wadear process.
38:57
Speaker 1: Okay, what I'm trying to get at is is there
39:01
Speaker 1: going to be a brand new trial for Madam Herve
39:07
Speaker 1: Gilaine Maxwell, or will the state take a cheap plea
39:12
Speaker 1: rather than retry the case if it rises to that? Now,
39:17
Speaker 1: the fact that jurors during jury liberations talk about their
39:21
Speaker 1: own personal experiences, there's nothing wrong with that. That always happens.
39:25
Speaker 1: You expect that to happen. You want people to draw
39:28
Speaker 1: on their past experiences as they reach a verdict. That's
39:32
Speaker 1: not going to be a problem. I want you to
39:34
Speaker 1: listen to our cut be our friends at CBS News.
39:39
Speaker 3: Before the trial, potential jurors were asked to fill out
39:42
Speaker 3: this questionnaire, including this question have you ever been the
39:46
Speaker 3: victim of sexual assault? One juror, using only his first
39:49
Speaker 3: and middle names, Scottie David fulled Reuters he can't remember
39:53
Speaker 3: if he disclosed his own claims of sex abuse, saying
39:56
Speaker 3: he flew through the initial questionnaire.
39:58
Speaker 4: He's old.
39:59
Speaker 3: Routers would have answered the.
40:00
Speaker 20: Questions honestly, prosecutors told the judge overseeing the trial. The
40:04
Speaker 20: statement's merit attention by the court. Maxwell's lawyers then told
40:09
Speaker 20: the judge she can and should order a new trial.
40:12
Speaker 20: A separateurer told The New York Times they spoke of
40:14
Speaker 20: their own sexual abuse during deliberations, which the paper says
40:18
Speaker 20: appeared to help shape the jury's discussions.
40:21
Speaker 1: This woman, according to a jury, according to multiple child victims,
40:27
Speaker 1: went out even on school playgrounds, trolling for little girls
40:32
Speaker 1: around fourteen that we know of, to bring back to
40:35
Speaker 1: her boyfriend, Jeffrey Epstein, the billionaire that hangs out with
40:38
Speaker 1: Clinton and Trump and all sorts of millionaires and very
40:43
Speaker 1: wealthy influential people for him to molest over and over
40:48
Speaker 1: and over until they aged out, and he wanted somebody
40:51
Speaker 1: even younger. Yes, this is her. She just gets convicted
40:56
Speaker 1: finally after a massive federal trial. And now only now
41:01
Speaker 1: do the jurors decide they're gonna come forward and say, oh, yeah,
41:05
Speaker 1: I was molested. Well, what about that GURR questionnaire? Do
41:08
Speaker 1: anybody hear what I just heard? The question number forty
41:12
Speaker 1: eight specifically asked have you ever been the victim of
41:17
Speaker 1: sex assault? According to CBS News, now here's the reality
41:24
Speaker 1: when you're talking about a jury trial. Back to you,
41:29
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, A lot of people may have been a
41:32
Speaker 1: crime victim. But the issue is can you listen to
41:36
Speaker 1: the facts in evidence brought in at trial, not what
41:39
Speaker 1: you may have read the paper, and render a verdict
41:42
Speaker 1: that speaks the truth. That's the question. Doesn't matter if
41:47
Speaker 1: you've been a victim not a victim, if you're black,
41:49
Speaker 1: if you're white, if you're a man, if you're a woman,
41:52
Speaker 1: if you're a Christian, if you're an atheist, it doesn't matter.
41:55
Speaker 1: It's can you render a verdict that speaks the truth? Yes,
42:00
Speaker 1: Wendy Patrick, Yeah, absolutely.
42:02
Speaker 10: The answer is yes. And so the jurors that are
42:05
Speaker 10: talking out afterwards are basically saying what they said influence
42:10
Speaker 10: the other jurors ability to be fair and try the
42:12
Speaker 10: case on the facts they heard from the witness stand.
42:14
Speaker 1: No, no, no, that's not what they said. They said it,
42:21
Speaker 1: Charlie Langston. Aren't they saying that them recounting their experiences
42:26
Speaker 1: a stake to the jury deliberations, not that it made
42:29
Speaker 1: them unfair or im or partial.
42:33
Speaker 13: They didn't say that it made them unfair. What they said,
42:35
Speaker 13: I mean, what the second juris said specifically was that
42:39
Speaker 13: their experiences of sexual assault had helped to shape the
42:43
Speaker 13: jury's discussions. So effectively, What the two jurors who have
42:47
Speaker 13: spoken out have said is that in them sharing their
42:51
Speaker 13: recollections of sexual abuse, it made the other jurors understand
42:55
Speaker 13: more how victims of sexual abuse may continue to recall
42:59
Speaker 13: their experiences, and I think in doing so, the jury
43:03
Speaker 13: was maybe able to realize a little bit more clearly
43:06
Speaker 13: just how well the trauma of abuse sticks with you
43:11
Speaker 13: throughout the years. So Maxwell's legal team one of their
43:15
Speaker 13: big arguments was to try and say that these women
43:17
Speaker 13: were coming forward because they wanted money, that they couldn't
43:20
Speaker 13: really remember what had gone on, And these jurors who
43:24
Speaker 13: spoke of their own experiences of sexual abuse were effectively
43:27
Speaker 13: helping the other jurors to realize that, no, these recollections
43:31
Speaker 13: do really stick with you, and you know, you are
43:34
Speaker 13: still able to recall a lot of details in very
43:37
Speaker 13: kind of specific ways. However, other, you know, facts might
43:41
Speaker 13: be a little bit more blurry as time goes on.
43:44
Speaker 21: That wash wait wait wait, wait wait, Okay, this happens
43:49
Speaker 21: when you're crime vactim. I will never forget for years
43:52
Speaker 21: and years and years, even when I was a prosecutor,
43:54
Speaker 21: I would not reveal did.
43:56
Speaker 1: Not they want to talk about it. To other people
43:59
Speaker 1: that my fiance I've been murdered just before our wedding.
44:02
Speaker 1: And that changed the course of my life and my career,
44:05
Speaker 1: and that's why I became a prosecutor. It was nobody's business.
44:08
Speaker 1: I didn't want to talk about it, but I remember
44:10
Speaker 1: it very well. And then I finally am publicly telling
44:14
Speaker 1: my story at request of Larry King. And do you
44:19
Speaker 1: know he asked me, when did this happen? And I
44:22
Speaker 1: said August sixth, and I screwed up the year. I
44:27
Speaker 1: don't remember what year, I said, but I screwed up
44:29
Speaker 1: the year Keith was murdered. Why did I do that?
44:33
Speaker 1: I don't know. Now. I remember so many things vividly.
44:38
Speaker 1: And then of course I was attacked like crazy about
44:42
Speaker 1: just everything because I screwed up the year on national TV.
44:48
Speaker 1: Now one thing, correct me if I'm wrong, and then
44:50
Speaker 1: everybody jump in. Charlie, this guy, Scottie David explained to
44:55
Speaker 1: the jurors some aspects of his abuse had been easier
44:59
Speaker 1: to recall than other quote. I remember the color of
45:01
Speaker 1: the carpet, the walls. Some of it can be replayed
45:04
Speaker 1: like a video. I do that too, but I can't
45:07
Speaker 1: remember all the details. There are some things that run together.
45:11
Speaker 1: And in his talking to the jury, according to him Charlie,
45:16
Speaker 1: he says that the jurors were going, Wow, well, why
45:19
Speaker 1: didn't the parents let this happen? Didn't they notice their
45:22
Speaker 1: children weren't home at the right time? And because of
45:25
Speaker 1: what he had gone through, he told the jurors women,
45:29
Speaker 1: you can't judge the victims like that are their parents.
45:31
Speaker 1: They're just fourteen years old, for Pete's sake. So do
45:35
Speaker 1: I have that right, Charlie Lanx.
45:36
Speaker 13: Yes. Effectively, he was helping the jury to understand, as
45:40
Speaker 13: a victim himself, why some of these women might be
45:44
Speaker 13: able to recall certain details, as you said, in a
45:47
Speaker 13: very specific way, but not be able to remember other things,
45:51
Speaker 13: as you said, like dates or times, or you know,
45:53
Speaker 13: even the location of where the abuse happened, because that,
45:57
Speaker 13: you know. I'm not, unfortunately an expert, but that's the
45:59
Speaker 13: way human brain works. When you go through an incredibly
46:04
Speaker 13: traumatic experience, sometimes you do try and block out the
46:07
Speaker 13: more painful aspect.
46:09
Speaker 1: Okay, I heard everybody jump in. I heard I know,
46:12
Speaker 1: I Jo gott Morgan, yeah, j hit me.
46:16
Speaker 22: Yeah, listen, I got to tell you, you know, I'm
46:18
Speaker 22: hearing the words molestation and sexual abuse being thrown around
46:22
Speaker 22: a lot. I got to remind everybody here that she
46:25
Speaker 22: was not charged or accused of those things. Officially from
46:29
Speaker 22: a legal perspective, She's charged with enticement of a minor,
46:34
Speaker 22: transportation of a minor, sex, trafficking of a minor, and
46:38
Speaker 22: three counts of conspiracy. So you know, if abuse or
46:43
Speaker 22: molestation is an element of that crime, which you know,
46:46
Speaker 22: for those that don't understand elements, it's a it's a
46:48
Speaker 22: building block of the crime. Maybe that's the case. But
46:52
Speaker 22: you know, to to the other point here where these
46:56
Speaker 22: you know, during this this questionnaire where they actually asked, well,
46:59
Speaker 22: do you have any experience with trafficking? Do you have
47:02
Speaker 22: any experience with enticement? Do you have any experience with
47:05
Speaker 22: the transportation of a minor? You know, you know, to
47:08
Speaker 22: for tat, you know, is that the case because right
47:11
Speaker 22: now all I'm hearing is molestation and abuse and she
47:14
Speaker 22: wasn't charged with us things.
47:15
Speaker 1: Next to doctor Troy sa Gill joining as professor's psychology
47:19
Speaker 1: and author way in doctor Well.
47:21
Speaker 9: In terms of memory, we know that the hippocampus is
47:26
Speaker 9: important for memory formation and recall. However, people understress such
47:32
Speaker 9: as children who are experiencing abuse. The body goes into
47:36
Speaker 9: fight flight. Adrenaline and cortisol are released, and all of
47:40
Speaker 9: a sudden, the hippocampus is switched off and it goes
47:43
Speaker 9: into the abigdala and the amygdala is not good for memory, recall, formation,
47:50
Speaker 9: or retrieval. And that's why a lot of the people
47:55
Speaker 9: who were on trial and his victims don't have really
48:01
Speaker 9: clear memories. And that's why they can do what you did,
48:04
Speaker 9: particularly if they're understress during the trial. They go back
48:09
Speaker 9: to the amiddaler and they can remember feeling and body memories,
48:14
Speaker 9: but they can't remember particular facts. And that's actually what
48:18
Speaker 9: Elizabeth Lostis was bringing out in the trial was why
48:23
Speaker 9: there is false memories. And that's what the juror said
48:27
Speaker 9: that he tried to clarify to the jury when they're
48:31
Speaker 9: in deliberations, because many of them said that they were confused.
48:36
Speaker 9: Why in twenty eighteen, nineteen, and twenty they gave one story.
48:42
Speaker 9: The victims gave one story to the federal government, and
48:45
Speaker 9: now they're giving another story.
48:47
Speaker 1: I don't think that the victims gave different stories. I
48:52
Speaker 1: think that under the appropriate questioning, more facts came out.
48:59
Speaker 1: On the stand, because when you ask somebody, okay, what
49:03
Speaker 1: happened and then they tell you, well, then you may
49:06
Speaker 1: want to ask, well, do you remember what time of
49:08
Speaker 1: year it was, do you remember what the part was wearing?
49:10
Speaker 1: Do you remember what you were wearing? Do you remember
49:12
Speaker 1: who let you into the home? Do you remember if
49:15
Speaker 1: there were any maids there, anybody else at Epstein's home.
49:19
Speaker 1: There are a million questions that you can ask where
49:22
Speaker 1: the victim would add to the story, not necessarily change
49:25
Speaker 1: the story.
49:26
Speaker 2: Charlie, No, and I.
49:27
Speaker 13: Don't think I mean, you know, from my experience of
49:29
Speaker 13: kind of reading through everything that went on with the trial,
49:32
Speaker 13: I don't think that any of the victims were particularly
49:37
Speaker 13: doubtful in any of their you know, kind of testimonies.
49:41
Speaker 13: I think that all of the victims spoke very clearly
49:45
Speaker 13: about what they had been through and Delane's part in that, which,
49:50
Speaker 13: you know, as we've pointed out, we aren't kind of
49:53
Speaker 13: looking here at a charge for sexual abuse at the
49:56
Speaker 13: hands of Glane. What we are looking for is kind
49:59
Speaker 13: of does of trafficking and enticement, and every single one
50:03
Speaker 13: of the victims was able to give very clear testimony
50:07
Speaker 13: about the part that Gilaine played in, you know, kind
50:11
Speaker 13: of Epstein's trafficking ring effectively. So when it comes to
50:17
Speaker 13: a jura like Scotti, David explaining to his other juras,
50:22
Speaker 13: you know what it is like to be the victim
50:23
Speaker 13: of sexual abuse, and what it is like to kind
50:25
Speaker 13: of try and recall those memories. I don't think that
50:29
Speaker 13: he in any way kind of made duras completely change
50:33
Speaker 13: their minds about witness testimonies. I think what he was
50:37
Speaker 13: trying to do was offer what some of the victims
50:41
Speaker 13: weren't able to say, which is sometimes my memory is
50:44
Speaker 13: a little bit blurry. Sometimes I can't recall certain facts.
50:48
Speaker 13: But what I can recall and what I know to
50:51
Speaker 13: be true, is what I went through. Just because I
50:53
Speaker 13: can't remember whether it happened on a Tuesday or a
50:55
Speaker 13: Wednesday doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
50:58
Speaker 1: I think to Eric, this is Joe Pike the skym Newes.
51:03
Speaker 23: This juror says that he quotes flew through the questionnaire.
51:08
Speaker 23: He doesn't remember answering a question about abuse, but if
51:11
Speaker 23: he did answer it, he answered it honestly. Certainly, both
51:15
Speaker 23: sets of lawyers on the prosecution and on the defense side,
51:18
Speaker 23: recognizes a problem here. The first lawyers to get in
51:21
Speaker 23: touch with the judge rights them, asking for an inquiry
51:23
Speaker 23: and a call heering in a month's time was the
51:25
Speaker 23: government lawyers. But since then, in the last hour or so,
51:28
Speaker 23: Gilley Maxwell's team have also been in touch with Judge
51:30
Speaker 23: Nathan saying that the interviews and the fact that Scotty
51:35
Speaker 23: David was a victim of abuse presents quotes incontroversible grounds
51:40
Speaker 23: for a new trial. He could potentially be in some
51:43
Speaker 23: legal trouble if he has misled the court, although I'm
51:46
Speaker 23: sure he would deny that. Anna. What we could potentially see,
51:49
Speaker 23: although it is early days, is the judge declaring the
51:53
Speaker 23: first trial a mistrial and starting again from scratch. That's
51:57
Speaker 23: something I'm sure that the government that prosecutors here in
52:00
Speaker 23: the US I would want to avoid. But that is
52:02
Speaker 23: what gal Maxwell's law is on now, calling for.
52:05
Speaker 1: Oh, the potential of a brand new trial, putting the
52:10
Speaker 1: victims back up again, doing it all over would be
52:14
Speaker 1: devastating to the state. But the reality is to Wendy Patrick,
52:19
Speaker 1: California prosecutor, host of Today with Doctor Wendy on KCBQ,
52:23
Speaker 1: the reality is that what must be shown is not
52:28
Speaker 1: that a GURR or multiple grs had been molested in
52:33
Speaker 1: the past, not that, but that that information was either
52:38
Speaker 1: not requested by the state, that the state had some
52:41
Speaker 1: type of misconduct, and we see in question number forty
52:44
Speaker 1: eight the state did ask that question, So we don't
52:47
Speaker 1: have any prosecutorial misconduct. Did a GURR lie that would
52:53
Speaker 1: be an issue? And if so, did that lie maybe
53:00
Speaker 1: are impartial and would it have changed the outcome of
53:06
Speaker 1: the trial? Otherwise? That is a very state burden. Wendy Patrick, No,
53:12
Speaker 1: it is.
53:13
Speaker 10: And I won't say that I haven't had to try
53:15
Speaker 10: cases twice due to during this conduct, because I have.
53:18
Speaker 10: But that doesn't mean that it is a slam dunk,
53:21
Speaker 10: as the defense is contending. Not only is it a
53:24
Speaker 10: steep hill to climb, but it also involves something courts
53:27
Speaker 10: really don't want to do, which is really invading the
53:30
Speaker 10: purview of jury deliberations. I mean, that's why we have
53:34
Speaker 10: the jury system. Is there entitled to get together and
53:36
Speaker 10: talk and share and to go beyond that veil and
53:39
Speaker 10: then start what polling jurors to see if in fact
53:42
Speaker 10: this did make them unfair when they heard this. That's
53:45
Speaker 10: not something a judge is going to do lightly. So
53:47
Speaker 10: I do think that this judge will they take a
53:49
Speaker 10: very thoughtful view as to whether or not what's being
53:52
Speaker 10: raised here actually will cause her to even think about
53:57
Speaker 10: going down that road.
53:58
Speaker 1: And this occurring the potential of a new trial being
54:02
Speaker 1: ordered for Glaine Maxwell. If there was prosecutorial misconduct, the
54:07
Speaker 1: whole thing could be over, the commission could be thrown out,
54:10
Speaker 1: and the case may be barred from retrial. I do
54:14
Speaker 1: not see any prosecutorial misconduct, but will there have to
54:18
Speaker 1: be a new trial?
54:20
Speaker 18: This appealed by Julaine Maxwell was denied by a court.
54:24
Speaker 18: The appeals court confirmed and upheld Maxwell's convictions, describing her
54:29
Speaker 18: sentence as procedurally reasonable. The court wrote the alleged crimes
54:34
Speaker 18: fell within the statute of limitations and the agreement did
54:38
Speaker 18: not cover Maxwell. This appeal was in a federal appeals court.
54:43
Speaker 18: Now it's on to the Supreme Court.
54:45
Speaker 1: While Jelaine Maxwell appeals her case all the way to
54:48
Speaker 1: the US Supreme Court. What happened to the release of
54:51
Speaker 1: all those documents? Thousands and thousands of pages of Epstein
54:56
Speaker 1: documents being kept under steal. Now we were told by the
55:02
Speaker 1: US attorney that they would be released. What's in those documents?
55:07
Speaker 1: Why are they so secretive? Too hot to handle? Whose
55:11
Speaker 1: names are in those documents? As Juline Maxwell appeals her
55:17
Speaker 1: case to the US Supreme Court, we wait as justice unfolds.
55:23
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace signing off goodbye.