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Exploring The Science of Magic - Dean Radin · Tracking Wisdom

• 0:03
  You're listening to the Tracking Wisdom Podcast exploring the universal truths that we see woven through culture, consciousness and the human experience.
• 0:18
  Good morning everybody.
• 0:19
  Welcome back to another episode of the Tracking Wisdom Podcast.
• 0:22
  I'm Ryan.
• 0:23
  I'm Peter.
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  Today we are talking about Dr.
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  Dean Radin.
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  For those who don't know Dean Radin, he has degrees in electrical engineering and a PhD in psychology.
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  He's been working in the field of psi phenomena and research for approximately 40 years.
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  He's chief Scientist at the Institute for Noetic Sciences, exploring interconnection between the personal inner space and the shared outer space reality.
• 0:53
  He's Distinguished professor at the California Institute of Integral Studies and also co founder and chairman of Cognigenics, developing non invasive intranasal RNA interference platforms to modulate the neural circuits underlying mood, memory and cognition.
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  He has his new book out, the Science of Magic.
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  How the Mind Weaves the Fabric of Reality.
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  So we watched two different videos which of course will be linked in the show notes.
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  The first one was the Science of Magic, Mind Matter and Meaningful Coincidence.
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  That was with Dr.
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  Bernard Beatman who is a psychiatrist and self proclaimed coincidence expert.
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  And connecting with coincidence is the channel.
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  Then the second video was the Science of Magic with Dr.
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  Barudi Sisuvong on the On Transcendence channel.
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  I did want to open with the elephant in the room.
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  The question that gets posed to Dean Radin or which is is psi phenomena real?
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  And he makes a great statement, I think which is there's a real difference between the idea of existence versus efficacy.
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  And he cites kind of the basic science into applied science.
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  So for him the work he's doing is looking at statistical deviations that would be outside of what would be expected in random chance.
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  And for that there is measurable influence from attention and intention on random number generators or on the material world essentially is the implication those effects in the laboratory are quite small but a practical.
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  High pie statistical significance.
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  Exactly.
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  So his statement is essentially these influences are real, but in the clinical laboratory environment they're very small.
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  He posits that because of the controlled environment and because of basically clinical ethics, we can't use the motivations in say the real world in normal day to day experiences, ethically can't be reproduced inside of the controlled environment due
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  to like having to put people in say life or death situations.
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  So basically people experience strong side effects in real life because of their high investment in whatever the issue being affected is.
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  And it could be a life or death situation, but it's at least a high emotional investment.
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  Correct.
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  And These are circumstances that you cannot ethically recreate in a laboratory setting.
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  Exactly.
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  So the point he makes is that in terms of statistical significance, they're undeniably real.
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  If, I mean, if you subscribe to this scientific model of the like, if we can show statistical significance, then we're demonstrating to a high degree of confidence that this effect is what we call real.
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  So in that sense they are real, period.
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  Given that that meaning of air quotes real.
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  And the issue is one of what you might call translational research.
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  In other words, how do you apply it?
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  How do you make it practical?
• 4:32
  Exactly.
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  I think the interesting thing is, or rather maybe the takeaway is that we should incorporate the idea that psi phenomena are real into our thought processes rather than having a dismissive, superstitious or anti superstitious attitude.
• 4:57
  Right.
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  And of course it pulls me back to quantum physics where of course nobody understands it.
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  I mean, I don't know if you've seen the video where the guy's teaching quantum physics and he says it's an intro course and he says, I don't understand quantum physics.
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  And so that's the good news is I'm here to teach you I don't understand quantum physics.
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  And by the end of the course you will be able to not understand quantum physics.
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  But that, as we've said, it's, it's been applied successfully.
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  Right?
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  We live with the products of it because people have been able to do essentially the translational research, the exploitation of this information into physical technology.
• 5:48
  Right?
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  But if people said, well, this is silly, it doesn't make any sense, and that would not have happened.
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  And presumably that is the case with psi phenomenon.
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  Right.
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  Like we just keep on insisting it doesn't exist.
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  So you can't work on it.
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  So it doesn't work.
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  Why?
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  Because it's not real?
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  Because you're not working on it.
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  Like, yeah, it's circular.
• 6:10
  Yeah.
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  I did find that was something that resonated with me, that I found interesting was this idea of existence versus the efficacy.
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  Because when we think about psi phenomena conceptually, I think we think of conventional media representations in fiction and stuff of what it looks like and these grand air quotes, powers that come with it.
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  And it's, I'm sure, also fueled by cultural and within those.
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  I don't know what kind of field or communities you would call that, but.
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  Right, maybe paranormal.
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  Yeah, I mean, it resonates very much with our experience with awakening.
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  Right.
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  Where there are cultural stories about what awakening is and therefore it's maybe not unreal, but extremely rare.
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  And I would say.
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  I would say for most people, extremely rare to the point of being unreal.
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  Like, oh, sure, it happened in ancient times or to these people or someone up on the mountain thing, but it's not really relevant to us in everyday life, life, which we've come a long way from there.
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  I think one of the things that's compelling about him is that he always presents from data and he never comes across as being particularly excited.
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  He's like a very dry kind of personality.
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  And it's just like, I'm really interested in studying this stuff and I keep on finding that it's real.
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  And, yeah, to my personality, it's a very compelling way of communicating that he has.
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  So I.
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  Yeah, I really want to read this book, his latest book now, Science of Magic.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  Which he.
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  He does use the term magic quite a bit to describe psi phenomena and the historical mystical experiences that are documented in various written forms that I guess historically would have been called magic.
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  Right.
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  And he's sort of taking that vernacular probably to be a little bit provocative, but then adding the scientific backing behind.
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  There's some relevance here.
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, I think, yes, in part it's to be provocative, but I think also it's to kind of show the reach of the science that we think that science and magic are so far apart.
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  But I think the point is that what we think of being this thing so distant from reality is really not that far from current science.
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  Right.
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  And of course, Arthur C.
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  Clarke's quote, you know, any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.
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  Right.
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  You know, how we live every day with this magic that we accept because it's physically put in our hand, you know, and the wizards say, oh, just do this.
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  It works.
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  You know, and we don't.
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  It's like, because we can pay for it and we can buy it.
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  And you're talking about mobile phones, all kinds of technology.
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  I mean, smart house or whatever, you know, AI types of technology, where a few years ago, you know, certainly decades or 100 years ago, it would have been, oh, my God, these people are doing magic.
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  Yeah.
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  And he even brings that up in one of the videos.
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  That idea that the meaning of material has changed, particularly with quantum mechanics.
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  And you know, what we do understand of quantum mechanics, while there's still a lot to be understood pre1900 or whatever, if you were to describe the things that we understand about quantum mechanics, it'd be completely rejected from a
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  materialist point of view.
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  And, you know, that the ongoing unfolding of what we know of reality continues to point us towards, as he calls the science of magic, which I think is something we've touched on in a lot of these videos, where
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  the more we look into this, the more other scientists are looking into it.
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  There's evidence there.
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  I was just thinking that I kind of see him almost as a translational research or a bridging approach from the scientists who are building off of quantum mechanics that we've been listening to, who are starting to think about
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  the idealist paradigm.
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  Right, right.
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  And saying that what quantum mechanics is teaching us is the.
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  That causality is not necessarily essential.
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  I mean, that's what magic is.
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  Right.
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  Magic is things that happen outside of our known causality.
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  And so these.
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  I don't want to call them hard sciences.
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  I mean, in a way they are because they're dealing more with aspects of physics and biology, but thinking about the nature of consciousness and what the implications of their work are, or rather what the implications of understanding consciousness
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  are on their work in biology and physics, maybe, but they're not working on what the implications of that are for human experience.
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  Right.
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  They're working on.
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  Recently we saw, like, how does DNA work?
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  Right, right.
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  What?
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  Raiden works with human experience.
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  So he's in an interesting space and he's been doing the same kind of thing for decades.
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  Right.
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  So, yeah, he kind of sits in an interesting position, I think.
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  But so.
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  So, I mean, he describes himself as a fully employed scientist for 40 years in the area of psychic phenomena, which is what he was interested in.
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  He's currently at the Institute of Noetics Sciences, which was founded by an astronaut based on that astronaut's experience of seeing the planet from space and having that kind of transform, transformational experience that we tend to call awakening, but
• 12:30
  just having this deep understanding that our conventional reality is not real.
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  Yeah.
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  And founded this institute and eventually made Dean Raden chief science officer, I think.
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  Yes.
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  But he didn't start out that way.
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  He started out at something like Bell Labs.
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  Yes.
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  When he was in Bell Labs, he was doing what he was told, you know, but he also said, hey, I'm interested in this other work.
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  And he was given permission to do that research, and then he was given permission to present at a conference.
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  And he's like, I'm just going to do this on my own, but, you know, I don't want to do it without your blessing.
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  They were like, yeah, go ahead, that's fine.
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  And then he was approached basically by the government at, like, at his.
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  After his first presentation and I guess basically the CIA or something like that recruited him into what used to be classified but is now declassified as Project Stargate.
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  Stargate Project.
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  And they were like, investigating remote viewing and teleportation and all this kind of stuff.
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  And now that's been declassified, there are people teaching methods based on the declassified Stargate reports.
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  Cool.
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  I don't.
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  I haven't seen any of that yet.
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  But, I mean, it sounds like you can get it from the horse's mouth.
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  In Science of Magic, where he introduces specific practices for you to experiment yourself, I think is the way he says, yeah, cool.
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  I definitely want to read that.
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  He had a couple of really interesting experiments that they've conducted.
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  One was on the chocolate experience where they did a double blind, random control trial where there was this premium chocolate.
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  Some of them were blessed or had good mood vibes, injected through intention and attention into it.
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  And so they did this in a double blind, random controlled trial and, you know, used standardized mood reporting and found that the blessed chocolate statistically had significant improvement of the mood.
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  Yeah.
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  Which to me, I mean, I wrote like Italian culture and soul food and stuff where I was like, these.
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  The secret ingredient is love.
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  Is love.
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  Yeah.
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  I think that's interesting.
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  And I wonder how much that impacts the life quality of those people.
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  Especially thinking like, of Western, traditional, American, industrialized, industrialized food.
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  It's not just the ingredients.
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  Right.
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  But is it being made kind of with love?
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  Right.
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  I mean, is it being made purely to maximize flavor?
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  Right.
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  Or is it being made to nourish someone?
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  Right, yeah.
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  And I mean, thinking about junk food and as kind of the epitome of industrialized food.
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  Sure, Right.
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  It's purely just to max flavor.
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  And it even claims like, like, flavor blasted and like, crank up this.
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  And it's purely about kind of the direct physical experience of putting the thing in your mouth and chewing on it.
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  This just came to me right now because I didn't make the connection before, which is processed food.
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  And I mean, I think there's probably a lot of biochemical evidence that processed food has biological detriment just in its composition and its lack of nutrition.
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  But the industrialized function is the chef.
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  In that instance, it's not just homemade, where you're feeding your family and you're providing and you have this emotional connection to the dish.
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  We eat stuff that comes out of basically a machine with people who don't know the consumer and.
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  Or care about the consumer.
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  And I think that's.
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  That's interesting.
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  It just kind of came to mind how in the context of this and the other experiment he had talked about, which was water, the ice crystals.
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  Crystals.
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  There was a Japanese researcher who had been working.
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  I mean, he was experimenting with water, but not in a rigorous way, I think.
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  Yeah.
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  And that he was practicing giving positive thoughts to the water and then freezing it versus giving negative thoughts to water and then freezing it.
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  And then comparing the resulting ice crystals and that positive mental energy produced very aesthetically pleasing ice crystals.
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  And negative went the other way.
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  And Dean said.
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  Or I think he approached Dean.
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  Right.
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  I think he did.
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  I think he went to Dean and said, how can we do this more in a more rigorous way?
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  And Dean said, yeah, we can do double binds and blah, blah, blah.
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  And so they.
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  They blinded the water samples and how people were influencing them, and then they blinded the ice crystal scores.
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  Like, who.
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  Who was looking at the ice crystals and where those ice crystals came from.
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  And then they.
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  They used standardized measures of like, aesthetic, like positive emotional response.
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  Basically, you look at this thing and you find it pleasing or you don't find it pleasing.
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  That's how they scored the aesthetic value of the crystals.
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  It sounded like they did it twice.
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  The first one was double blind.
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  And then they did a triple blind.
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  That's right.
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  That's right.
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  And then the triple blind was put out, basically.
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  I mean, I guess like on a website kind of thing, where people would rate the crystals on aesthetics and have.
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  Absolutely no connection whatsoever.
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  Exactly.
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  It was just like, look at these pictures.
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  Which ones do you prefer?
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  And there was statistical significance that the ones that were given positive energy, so to speak, had more aesthetically pleasing crystalline structures.
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  I think that's interesting.
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  He uses, as you had mentioned, random number generators.
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  It sounds like.
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  As sort of like the probe or, you know, the capture device to find the statistical significance.
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  And these aren't just off the Internet, random number generators.
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  They're validated to be random.
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  So there's computer generated random numbers which are pseudo random, and then there are random numbers based on radioactive decay.
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  That's what it was.
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  Which are genuinely random because it's based on radioactive decay.
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  It's not based on a model of randomness.
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  But he said that they had evidence of attention and intention having impact on the radioactive decay of.
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  That's what I took away from.
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  That was.
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  Which is crazy.
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  So I downloaded.
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  I think I mentioned this before.
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  I just on a whim, came across an app.
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  Basically, I got it because it sounded like it came from Raiden's research.
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  And what the app does is it assigns each user a random number generator.
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  And just by assigning it to a random user on the, you know, in the interworld, it associates that user's mental influence with the generator and then they track what happens and then the app gives you a notification when
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  your data is trending.
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  Meaning more coherence.
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  Exactly.
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  The random number generator assigned to you has now become statistically significantly less random.
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  I don't try to interpret it in any way, I'm just participating in as like I contribute to this research in some way.
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  But one thing that's intriguing is apparently they have a way of predicting earthquakes.
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  Like that's one of their projects.
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  And I've gotten a number of notifications, let's say successful earthquake prediction.
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  And I have not dug into it.
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  I haven't like, you know, gone any further other than downloading the app and participating in.
• 20:32
  I haven't done any further investigation to what, what are you guys doing and how are you doing it?
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  But one of the things he had mentioned was an experiment or you know, a collection of data around transcendental mutation and TM communities and the effects of say crime rates and stuff in those areas.
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  Yeah, so that's the other thing I want to say about this app is that it also uses population data, so it aggregates data to nearest cities and so it says, you know, my city is trending, for example.
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  So.
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  Yeah.
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  Anyway, he mentioned and described a few experiments that they've done which had quite interesting results.
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  The thing I found most interesting was this idea of retro causality.
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  What he described was you take the random number generator and you record it over a period of time unobserved and it just runs and then you play it back in the controlled setting trying to influence it with attention
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  and intention.
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  And he said the finding was that the influence was comparable to in real time.
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  So you already collected this information.
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  It was unobserved though, and retroactively try and influence the randomness.
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  And they were able to find similar results as if it were done in real time.
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  And I thought that that was a really interesting finding.
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  Yeah, that is really crazy.
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  Yeah.
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  And I mean I think it kind of flies in the face of Penrose and his sarcastic weather on the distant weather on the distant planet.
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  Yeah, I mean, well, it's interesting.
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  So.
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  So Penrose tells the story to say consciousness dependent collapse of the wake function doesn't make any sense because if it were real then this is what would happen.
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  Right.
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  I guess also kind of goes to the Schrodinger cat.
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  Right.
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  Which is Schrodinger saying, well, it doesn't make any Sense because this is what it would mean.
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  So I guess that's the thing is that we're starting to do experiments to say can a cat be alive and dead at the same time?
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  Right.
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  I think nobody used to do those experiments and now people are like, well let's test it.
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  Because then you could actually get some information, some kind of information.
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  And that's what Dean's career is, trying to test that.
• 23:07
  But that the, the he was at the end of the last of the.
• 23:13
  OR on transcendence.
• 23:14
  Sorry, on transcendence.
• 23:16
  And he was talking about the implications of the idealism paradigm and separation being illusory and not as real as we believe it to be.
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  And what is the effects or outcome on kind of society or what's the future of society look like.
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  And Dean Radin was basically suggesting that the more we understand ourselves to be interconnected, this kind of goes to the similar thing that all of.
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  Yeah, right.
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  This universal message of altruism and connectedness.
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  Right.
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  Human cultural evolution into harmony.
• 24:01
  Yeah.
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  So I think one of the reasons that I want to read the Science of Magic and I think this is true of Raiden's style overall is they tend to be research heavy.
• 24:14
  And I reading some reviews like this, some people were complaining, it's like he's just presenting a lot of data but that's what he does, you know, that's the bar.
• 24:23
  And yeah, I think the point is that I guess we're moving towards what Hoffman was saying where science is science, it doesn't have to be limited to the physical world.
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  It's just a process, you can apply it to anything.
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  But we've been locked in historically to you cannot study non physical things.
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  And this crosses into kind of the belief of science where science now becomes.
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  It's a belief system as to it's not physically detectable directly and therefore it doesn't exist.
• 25:07
  Right.
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  I think the good news of all this is that Dean Radin had mentioned and I think what we're seeing as well is there is a paradigm shift currently happening.
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  And you know, over the past 20, 30 years, more and more this idealism worldview is gaining popularity.
• 25:29
  If you read the literature and like the letters to the editor in scientific journals and stuff, you won't see scientists talking about psi phenomena.
• 25:39
  Right.
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  But if you get a room full of 100 scientists and you say raise your hand if you've had this experience, 70% of them will raise their hand.
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  They just won't talk about it in a professional setting.
• 25:51
  The other thing that keeps on coming to mind because I mentioned the evolution of harmony.
• 25:56
  And I think there's a skeptical resistance to the idea of things getting better because it's easy to see how bad things are.
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  And particularly in current environment.
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  There's lots of concern about domestic and international events that are, like, really bad.
• 26:19
  And not to say that those aren't bad, but just to say you can't look at current events as a trend.
• 26:26
  That's what I guess I'm.
• 26:27
  I'm saying.
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  And I'm thinking about my own personal experience as I find myself developing, where there's always backlash.
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  So, like, I had a really good week a couple of weeks ago where I saw.
• 26:43
  And this wasn't just subjective, like, oh, I'm feeling so much better.
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  I'm so much happier with the way things are.
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  But there was, I think, some objective improvement and then had several days where it's like, oh, this is not good.
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  Like, there's a lot of friction.
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  Like, I keep on stepping the wrong way.
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  And it seemed like, well, none of that nice stuff was real.
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  This is what's.
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  Like, this is the same old thing.
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  These are my patterns.
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  I can't get away from them.
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  And then it stabilized.
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  It restabilized again.
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  So I'm not still in that rut.
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  But that rut was bad, even though it was short relatively.
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  But this is becoming a very familiar experience where there's a reaction of kind of the status quo of the system, meaning my personal system, where watching the behavior of my system, I can see it improve dramatically.
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  And then there's a sharp kind of backlash.
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  And then there's a restabilization.
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  There's a new status quo.
• 27:47
  Sure.
• 27:48
  Right.
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  And so what I'm saying is.
• 27:52
  Excuse me, is we're postulating that there's an evolution of humanity towards a greater harmony and that the presence of great conflict isn't a proof that that's not happening.
• 28:08
  Right.
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  It's just a downtick point in the trend.
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  Right.
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  And I think there are many writers who point this out that the trend is amazing.
• 28:18
  Yeah.
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  If you look at the trend and not at the current event, the trend is really astounding.
• 28:25
  There's a phrase in internal family systems that's parts are people.
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  And so you have to approach them with patience and dignity and humility.
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  And a classmate said, well, people are parts.
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  And like, oh, no, no.
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  I mean, parts are people.
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  And I was like, yeah, and people are parts.
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  Right.
• 28:46
  Because it's a fractal pattern expanding out.
• 28:49
  And this is.
• 28:50
  Dick Schwartz, who wrote Internal Family Systems, says this explicitly at the end of this book is like you can apply this process to any system micro.
• 28:59
  Yeah.
• 29:00
  It's like it works in your internal parts, it works in your role as a family part, as a community part, as a national part, as a world global part.
• 29:12
  And so, yeah, so what I was saying is given that perspective, I see how my internal trend is positive, even though if I measure at certain points is very negative.
• 29:27
  Sure, right.
• 29:28
  The subjective experience is like terrible.
• 29:31
  But looking at the trend, it's amazing.
• 29:33
  Like I've never had such highs as I've had.
• 29:37
  And so I just want to point to that same thing in the very, very, very, very zoomed out macro scale that I think we can see an evolution of human consciousness and society as being more harmonious.
• 29:56
  And many of the thinkers that we've talked about are saying the same thing.
• 30:03
  So that's just my perspective on harmony and disharmony in the world.
• 30:08
  Yep.
• 30:09
  Because the overall trend.
• 30:11
  Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 30:12
  I think that that's a great way and place to end the video or the audio, as it were.
• 30:20
  Thank you all for listening.
• 30:21
  I hope you enjoyed this conversation.
• 30:23
  We'd love to hear your comments and if you have any experience with Dean Radin's work or his concepts, we'd love to hear that as well.
• 30:31
  The videos and books and all the information resources that we used in this conversation will be in the show notes.
• 30:39
  I have noticed that in certain platforms show notes get truncated.
• 30:43
  So if that's not available in your particular platform, visit trackingwisdom.com and the full show notes will be there.
• 30:50
  Until next time, bye now.
• 30:52
  Bye.
• 30:55
  Thank you for listening to the Tracking Wisdom podcast.
• 30:57
  Join us next time as we continue the discussion.
• 31:00
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