Latest / Walk Talk: Faith in Motion / Mega Churches Part 1
Transcript
- Randy: Mega churches, should they exist? What do they teach? And who are the wealthiest pastors? We're going to talk about that and a whole lot more today on the Walk Talk. Pj: ⁓ yeah. Randy: All right, brother. So hey, I know you've been itching to get into this one for a minute. Pj: Poof. Man, there's ⁓ yeah. Cause it's just it's so wild, man. There's I feel like there's so much here. I'm excited. Randy: Yeah, I agree. There's there's a lot there. And you know, there's there's mega churches and then there's mega churches and then there and then there's and then there's the pastors behind some of these churches. Pj: Yeah. Like super mega churches. I mean the the the labels that there's a platinum addition. It's it's it's it's really out of control, man. It is Randy: It's out of control. And before we get too deep into it, do you have a definition of mega churches? Pj: I don't I don't have I c I can pull one up real quick. Randy: That w yeah, pull one up if you want, but I I came across a definition while I was looking this up. And what it what I read was any church that has over two thousand members who attend regularly, like as in on on an average Sunday, two thousand or more are considered a mega church, which I was a little bit surprised by that because I know I've been part of a few churches that would check that box, but I would not have considered them mega churches in my opinion. Pj: Okay. ⁓ y y Yes. Randy: ⁓ they're just not what I typically would think of in terms of mega churches. How how about you? Pj: Yeah, well, I I mean, maybe not that, you know, like you said, like two I mean that don't get me wrong, that's a huge congregation. But but I mean, in the grand scheme of some of these churches where it's in the tens and of thousands, it's like you know, I don't know. Because I mean you gotta think. There's some there's some, you know, really big areas where there's so many people. It's like, man, you have to you know, there's just Randy: That's a that is a lot. That is a lot. Right. Pj: It you know, it's like i if you're if you're in a a a town with a population of thirty thousand people, then you know what mean? You you figure, you know, you might get a a a church congregation of three, four hundred people, but if you'd live somewhere with three million people, then you know, you might get two thousand. Randy: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I I know I've been to several churches that ⁓ you know, have built decent sized buildings and on average they probably had two to three thousand people who attended on an average Sunday spread out over maybe two or three services, sometimes more. But in my mind, when I think of a mega church, I'm thinking of like stadiums and amphitheaters and you know, the these really like huge buildings where it's you know, it's like a big spectacle. That's kind of what where my mind goes when I think of these mega churches. Pj: Right. And according to this, then yeah, it it says ⁓ mega church is a congregation with a very large building and membership. Most mega churches offer a variety of educational and social activities and are evangelical. Although the term evangelical usually denotes the type of organization, not a denomination. Mega churches are generally defined as any Christian church that on average draws two thousand or more per week. Randy: And do you got a source on that definition there? Wikipedia. So there you go, folks. Straight from the horse's Wikipedia mouth. ⁓ there it is. So yeah, we got the 2000 number. It also mentioned a little bit about the size, ⁓ and and maybe a little bit about the setup of the the building that they're in. And and and to me, I don't know what it is. ⁓ but I maybe it's because I've seen them so many times on TV, ⁓ and and they look like they're all in some sort of stadium. Maybe that's where why, you know, the building matters to me. Pj: That's on Wikipedia. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Randy: More so than, you know, and and I don't know, like if we and when we start to talk about some of these some of these guys, it'd be a good good question to answer is like, are these guys typically having multiple church services or are they typically just trying to get a big enough building to fit everyone in one Sunday morning or Saturday night service? Cause like I said before, you know, the the churches that I've attended that have maybe had those kind of numbers. They did it over three or even four services in most cases. They weren't packing them all. They didn't have the space to pack them all into one physical location. Pj: Right. Right. Right. Yeah, man. All right. Well, let's let's dive in. Let's dive in. Randy: Let's dive in. So so why don't we start with ⁓ listing off ⁓ s who the top mega mega church pastors are in terms of net worth. Is that is that all right? Pj: Yep, let let's definitely do that. That's ⁓ that that's some interesting stuff there. So let let's get into that. Randy: Yeah. So let's get into that first because and here we go. And I think there might be one person on this list that's actually deceased, but I think everyone else is still around. So we did some searching. If we look at just the mega church pastors within the United States, ⁓ then what I found was Kenneth Copeland was number one. Pj: Yes. Randy: And interestingly enough, ⁓ his estimated net worth is between three hundred million and seven hundred and sixty million, which is a huge gap, over a four hundred million gap in terms of the estimation. So in other words, there's a big four hundred million dollar question mark there around this guy's net worth. Pj: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and that's that's astronomical whenever whenever you consider that the second place person is comes in at a hundred million, which would right. So just think about this. So the the gap in just the gap in Kenneth Copeland's net worth is at least four times more than Joe Olstein's whole net worth, which is insane. Randy: Hundred million, Joel Osteen. Yeah. So Joel Steen comes in at number two. I have Pat Robertson, ⁓ which is the one who's deceased at around 100 million as well. Benny Hinn is number four. His estimated net worth is between 60 and 65 million. Then I had Steven Furtick, which is about 55. TD Jakes between 20 and 50. Crefo dollar, ⁓ about 30 million. Rick Warren, 25 to 30 million. Jesse Duplanis, another guy from ⁓ Louisiana. Pj: Louisiana. ⁓ man. Randy: Between 20 to 25 million, and then number 10, Andy Stanley, ⁓ estimated net worth between 15 and 20 million. And it's worth noting that you know these are all estimates, ⁓ as you know, you would suspect they would be. And they're not it's not publicized what their actual salaries are that they that they receive from their church. So, you know, some of these guys are authors, we know that. Some of them, you know, may do ⁓ public speaking or guest speaking or different types. They might have different revenue streams, is what I'm getting at, besides just their salary as a pastor. So we don't really know how these numbers break down for each one of them, but those are the ballpark figures that put these 10 in the top 10. Pj: Well, and and here's the crazy thing, man. I I pulled up a list ⁓ whenever I was kind of looking into this of the the top twentiest ⁓ excuse me, the top twenty wealthiest in the US. And I I guess just out of curiosity, man, because two of like the the mega church pastors that I actually do like and listen to aren't even on the list. And and I I mean, granted and i guess in the grand scheme of things, maybe they're not that that level, but I mean I Randy: Mm, interesting. Pj: on on just for point of reference, number twenty ⁓ on this top twenty in the US ⁓ wealthiest preachers is Paula White and her her estimated net worth is five million. ⁓ and and and I mean I I know that that that sounds like I mean we're s we're still talking millions of dollars here, but in the grand scheme of things, the the two ⁓ at least one of the pastors I would have figured would have been in that ballpark because like you said, he's an author. He does different things ⁓ other than just pastor the the church that he does. So Randy: Yeah, very interesting. Very interesting. And yeah, and five million dollars is nothing to sneeze at. ⁓ but but again, it'd be good to know how much of that, you know, how what we we won't know because they don't have to publicize this information, but it'd be really interesting to know how much do they receive as their actual salary. Because when you're talking about some of these guys like Kenneth Copelett, for example, I mean, this is a guy who has openly bragged about the jets that he owns, right? I think he bought Tyler. Pj: Ins yeah, it's insane. Bought from Tyler Perry. Yeah. Randy: Yeah, Tyler Perry's Jet, you know, he hu he owns this huge like mansion. And and it's like some of these things, you know, yeah, it might not technically be in his name. It might be under his church's name, but he he has access to this. And so for each one of these guys, there's gonna be some great areas where there might be an actual salary. I mean, we've probably all heard of people like Donald Trump who takes a salary of like one dollar, or are a CEO of a company who takes a salary of one dollar. Because they get things like you know, stocks and other benefits like use of private jets or use of a private home or things like that. Which for an average person like you or me, guess what? We would have to pay taxes on that kind of stuff. So, like, if like in for example, I had a job a couple of years ago where I was an executive leader for a company, and my job came with the car. That was part of the perks of my job. It came with the car, and I had the choice to either take the car. Pj: Mm-hmm. Randy: And ⁓ you know, let the company pay for that car or just take the money and they just add it to my salary, ⁓ the same the equivalent value of the car. But when I found out that I was going to be taxed on it either way, I chose to just keep driving the car that I already had and take the cash because I said, Well, hey, I'm gonna have to pay taxes on it anyway. At least, you know, if I'm taking the cash, then you know I have the taxes in the bank to pay for it. But Pj: Yeah. Yeah. Randy: I don't think that works the same way with these guys since they're all part of a five ⁓ one C three. Pj: Yeah, ⁓ yeah. They they get brakes on brakes. Randy: Exactly. Brakes on brakes. Pj: Yeah. So man, man, man. But yeah, so and and the crazy thing is is I'm pretty sure that for going back to Kenneth Copeland, that jet that he bought from Tyler Perry, that you know, that there was a a pretty infamous video out there that I'm sure we'll get to a little bit later. But that was I think his that was his second one. That was his second jet. And then he's he said he had to buy it because Tyler Perry just made it so cheap for him. You know what I mean? And he's definitely not gonna ride in a What what do you say? A metal tube of demons or something like that? Well we'll we'll get to it. We'll get to it. Randy: Something like that. Yeah. Well, I definitely want to get into, you know, what do these guys teach? What are their, you know, I would say general, how would you generally classify the messages that they preach on each Sunday? What have been some of the things that they've said? What have been some of the criticism? But I think maybe the best place to start is by, you know, maybe we we start by looking at some videos and hear directly from them what they have to say. What do you think? Pj: Well, I mean I I think that that's a a good idea. ⁓ but what I would do is i is just say just just to preference, I I searched ⁓ I Googled ⁓ certain types of preachers, I'll say that, and and the majority of them that are in in your top ten are the this let's just say these top tens match. How about that? So Randy: All right. Well, should we just should we just say what that what search was or do you are you wanna wait and reveal that later? Pj: I I mean w what do you th I I'm pretty sure it it's it's it's not hard to figure out, but what what do you think? Should we should we should we let ⁓ guess, play some videos and let ⁓ guess what what kind of message they're preaching or or Randy: Let's yeah, let's take a look at some videos and see if it becomes obvious. Let's do that. Pj: All right. Alrighty. So let's let's start off with our go ahead. Randy: So yeah, so Kenneth Copeland was number one. Do we gotta do we wanna take a look at a video on him first? Pj: Ye yeah, yeah, let's see. I got some I got some great, great Kenneth Copeland stuff to pull up here. Let me see. ⁓ Randy: And while you're doing that, I I'll I'll get Joel Osteen on deck because he was number two and he was one that I had been listening to and had some, you know, interesting is he I have a take on some interesting comments that he made. Pj: Yeah. So let me see. I I'll pull up it since we're talking about it. Here's here's his Here's his ⁓ let me share my screen. Here's his his jet buying video. Where's the share, but Randy: It's down at the bottom, right next to leave. Pj: ⁓ I see it. And will you be able to edit it or let me see if I could full screen this? No. Randy: This that's fine like that. We could wa we could let it put like that. Pj: All right. Crazy. Yeah. So I mean that's that's one of the many. Here here's another just just pearl here. Randy: So so before you go to the next one, and you could get it queued up, ⁓ you know, in in his defense, okay, it did seem like he was caught off guard a little bit, like it was a little bit of gotcha journalism happening. But man, to look at his eyes and his expression and just to hear his tone as he's talking, if I'd never seen this guy on TV, if I didn't know who he was, I would never have thought that he was a ⁓ pastor or any sort of leadership position over a church. He he just has, I don't know, there's something to me that's just a little off putting. Pj: ⁓ absolutely. And and the craziest thing is is there's so many people that that they know him. Like if you say, ⁓ the the preacher who looks like a demon, they're like, ⁓ yeah, I know who you're talking about. That's Kenneth Copeland. Yeah. Randy: That that's crazy that people know him as that. Yeah, a preacher that looks like a demon. And I didn't hear the comment that she was referring to ⁓ from him ⁓ about him, you know, ⁓ needing to a private jet 'cause he don't want to fly in a tube with demons or or whatever he said she's she quoted him as saying, but that's very interesting if he did say that. Pj: There yeah, there there is a a a video. He was I I've seen it before. He's wearing a red shirt. ⁓ I'm sure y'all can ⁓ search it up and and you'll find it. Here here's the other one. This the this message freaked me out. This is this is another little gem from our man Kenneth Copeland. Randy: All right, let's see. Pj: Wow. God is the biggest loser, he said. Randy: Wow. I mean, man, that's that's I I don't know. I don't know how to take that, man. I mean I could I could play devil's advocate here and and maybe speculate on where he's going with that, but just taking that little clip for what it is, I mean, it doesn't sound great. Pj: No. And and and there was one more that I'd I'd have to look up ⁓ where Kenneth Copeland said that we have the same exact DNA in us as Jesus did. And I'm like, okay. So I mean I again going to your point, like they're they're really good at at saying these things that are c similar, right? Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: that that could be viewed as like okay this is this is pretty close but I think ultimately what it's doing is is it's planting the wrong seeds. What I mean what comes to my mind first and foremost is exactly what Satan tried to do to Jesus whenever he was tempting him, you know, in in the wilderness for 40 days and 40 nights. Because like I mean the the craziest thing is is You know, when when the devil is is actually doing that, ⁓ like for example, in in Matthew four, ⁓ it's I think it's what verse ⁓ six where he he says that thing, you know, ⁓ to tells Jesus to throw himself down off the cliff, you know, and and this is Satan talking, and he says, For for it is written, he shall give his angels charge over you, and in their hands they shall bear you up lest you dash your foot against a stone. Now, the the crazy thing is is that what what people a lot of people don't realize is he's directly quoting the Bible. He's directly quoting Psalm 911. So the devil is quoting the Bible to Jesus, right? And trying to use it as a weapon against him. Luckily, Jesus, you know, in in his infinite wisdom and discernment knows the Bible better and is able to go back against what what the devil's trying to use the Bible for. You know what I mean? Randy: Yeah. Pj: And I think that that happens a lot, man. Right. Randy: He knows the whole Bible. So he knows where it says, you know, not to test the Lord your God, right? So he, you know, devil takes a little bit out of con out of context and says, Hey, you know, the Bible says this. But then Jesus, knowing the whole story, says, you know, well, not really. Pj: Hundred percent. Right. And and Right, right. And and you know what what this reminded me of, man, because I I I I'm glad that you you picked it up because we didn't talk about this prior. But exactly what you said, there's some times where these I I I was watching some of these outlandish videos and it's like I can't believe he said that. But then I'm sitting there thinking and I'm like, Man, okay, I like you said, I can kind of see, you know, how you can try to spin this into being something that is actually a a valid and good point. But at the same time, what what very much came to my mind was the episode that we did about the satanic Bible and how it was just those little subtle ⁓ little subtle changes here or there that completely sh reshapes the the the thought process and and and the message. You know what I mean? So that's kinda what what came to mind. Randy: Yeah, gotcha. Yeah, I mean it it that's that's a good point. All right. Any other ones for ⁓ Kenneth Copeland? Pj: ⁓ no, I mean I I think that that's plenty. It's it's ⁓ that's the most that I've ever watched and it it was it was tough, man, to to see some of the things that that he said, to be honest. Randy: All right, all right, I'm gonna share one then, ⁓ of Joel Olstein. So let's see, go ahead and stop sharing, man. Let me see. Pj: Yeah, I mean and and there's so much of this stuff. I mean, we're we're just scratching the surface while Randy's looking up this video of Joel Osteen. I mean, you know, there's so many other you know, people out there preaching false messages. And I mean the the Bible very very much warns against it. You know what I mean? Especially, you know, I I think that that's one of the things that that Jesus says is is a sign of the times and and very explicitly warns us to not be deceived. Okay, cool. Let's see what you got. Randy: Alright, so let me know if you could hear this okay. Pj: It's a little bit low. Randy: All right, so this part I need to figure out how to make sure the audio's coming through. Hold on a second. Okay, do you hear anything right now? Okay, so when you when you were playing yours, I could hear it like l loud and clear, as if either your mic was picking it up, like point it right at your speakers, or as if like it was coming through the app. And I'm playing this through Edge. Isn't that what you played you played yours through, Edge? Pj: Yep. Yep. You want you want me to you want me to play it through mine? Randy: Man, I mean I mean s I I you might have to, man, 'cause I don't know I don't know why. Like if I'm playing it through Edge and it's not the sound isn't coming through, I'm not sure what I could do differently. Pj: Yeah, it was very low. Yeah, I and and it sounds like you're watching a T V i in the background, you know what I mean? Randy: Well Yeah. Why why don't you try to play it then and then let's do a test. Like let's put your mic on mute and see if I still hear it. Because I'm one I'm just trying to figure out is it coming through my through your mic or through the through the system? Because I hear yours loud and clear. Pj: Okay. ⁓ so you want me to start from the beginning? Randy: Yeah, maybe yeah, from the beginning and we could always edit out the first minute or so if we need to. 'Cause I I think it starts around the minute ten, minute and a half mark, but just go ahead and play it from the beginning. Okay, mute mute yourself right now and just let the video play. Pj: ⁓ that Randy: Go ahead and let the video play. Yeah, I hear that as clear clear as day. Try to speak. Yeah, I can't hear you at all, but I could hear the video clear as day. Pj: And and I hear it playing through my headphones. Like it's it's loud in my headphones, so I d I don't know. Randy: So and you have it open and edge, right? And all you did was share. And then when you went to share, what did you click after share? Because it I it when I when I open it, ⁓ you hit screen. ⁓ but you got multiple screens. I have presentation. Stop sharing. Let me just try sharing it for a second. Just stop sharing. So when I hit I hit share and then I hit screen, and then whenever I hit screen, it comes up. Let's see, hold on a second. Pj: I I hit screen. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I I have Randy: Now I now I don't see it. ⁓ so I have edge. Okay, I got edge open. I hit share screen and then I see whenever I hit screen, I see screens, entire screen, windows, or bless yourself, Joe Olstein, YouTube. Which one did you click on? Pj: Yeah, so I I clicked on the one that I wanted because I have a I have multiple tabs open. And so it showed me a list of all the tabs that I have open. So I clicked the one that I wanted. Randy: So you click the the the one that said like the video, but the Pj: Yeah. So so like if I go so if I hover over the share, it says screen or presentation. So I would hit screen. So then whenever I do that, it says Microsoft Eds tab. And then it has a list. It it says bless yourself, most famous, prosperity gospel, Ken Scopeland, will Randy: See, mine don't say Microsoft Edge. Mine says Windows. Maybe I have maybe I don't have Edge. No, it's Ed, it is Edge. Pj: ⁓ look, hey w so my My mine also says also share tab audio and that's click. Does yours say that? Randy: Whoa whoa no. Where do you see that? Pj: It's ⁓ for me, it's right underneath. Like it's ⁓ like it like it's in the same window. So like there's so it says choose what to share with riverside.com. This site will be blah blah blah. Then it my tab, the first thing it says Microsoft Edge tab, and it has everything that I have open, even my work stuff. And then right underneath that. Randy: Underneath what? See, see, mine says when I click on share and then I click on screens, mine looks it sounds different than what you're seeing. Mine says share your screen. The app wants to use contents of your screen. Choose what you like to share. And it says screens, entire screen, windows, and under windows, it has the tabs. So my it sounds like and I have edge open, but it sounds like my edge and your it is ⁓ showing up differently. Maybe it's because you're in the browser, right? You're in the ⁓ you're not in the The app, you're in the browser, right? I'm using the app on my computer, so I wonder if that's the difference. Pj: Probably. So look I I just text you what what mine looks like. And that that's that's exactly I I guarantee you also share tab audio. You're not sharing the tab audio. You're Randy: Yeah, that looks way different than mine. Here, I'll show you what mine looks like. Cause yeah, I think it must be because I'm in the app, man. That has to be it because I'll show you. When I click on screen, this is what I see. All right. So yeah, you're just gonna have to share then and maybe next time, ⁓ I'll I'll try to log on just through the ⁓ link through the browser. That's all I see. Yeah. Pj: Jeez. Yeah, I gotta yeah, that's that it gotta be the app. Yeah, because yeah, okay. Let's get let's get to Randy: All right, well let's get what let's just jump back into it. You just go ahead and share that video. Pj: You want me to go to the minute something Mark you said? Randy: Yeah, maybe about a minute in. Yeah. Well hold on. Let me I text you with the numbers. Let me check the text message. Pj: Do what? Randy: I think I had texted you where to start. Let me check the text message real quick. ⁓ one forty four. So you just start it at like one forty. And we'll start from here. Okay, let's stop there. Okay, so so there was a lot there. First he talks about blessing yourself and and he didn't say the reference. I think he said it was in Isaiah, but he didn't say exactly where it says we should be blessing ourselves. But the thing that really caught my attention was that last part where he said when he says, you know, things are gonna start coming and looking for you when you speak them out loud, because that's a message that sounds very familiar to me. Does it sound familiar to you at all? Pj: Cool. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I I mean that dude, I mean, that's the secret. So, you know, the the crazy thing is is I I this is was exactly this. So I had got to this point where I I used to always say OPM optimism, prayer, manifestation. That's what I thought was happening. I'm like, hey, look, you know what? I'm gonna stay happy and pray about these things that I want and I'm gonna manifest them into my life and they're gonna come and they're gonna find me. Randy: Hmm. Okay. Pj: You know what I mean? The universe is gonna bring them to me. That I mean that's I mean, he he's he's he's dancing with the same with the same partner, just Randy: That well well, that's so that's what I thought. When I heard him saying this, I thought, first of all, look, I don't see the message of the secret as being a biblical message. At least that's not the way I read the Bible. I I don't see those things in the same way. Not that I think there's anything wrong with being positive. I definitely think that we should pray and present all everything to God, our supplications to God, our worries, our concerns, everything we should present it to God. And I definitely think that we should, you know, get off our butts. And try to make things happen, right? I I wouldn't call it necessarily manifestation, but if that's what you want to call, you know, getting out there and putting in some elbow grease and and working, okay, great. But when I heard it packaged the way he was packaging it, I I heard it it to me, it sounded very similar to the the message of the secret and the teachings ⁓ of the secret that basically say that, you know, yeah, manus manifestation is real. And whatever you want is out there and it exists for you in some other version of reality. And all you gotta do is pull it to yourself through some sort of, you know, magnetic attraction by thinking a certain way, feeling a certain way, believing a certain way. That sounded very similar to what Joel Olstein was just saying. Pj: Well, a hundred percent. And and coming, you know, from my own personal journey in this, coming kind of out of that that train of thought, again, what I found was that, you know, the Bible just says that the the power of life and death is in the tongue, right? And ⁓ over the the the the overflow of the heart the mouth's out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks. Those kind of things. So you have this this kind of idea where it's like, you know, not you know, and and I know people people would would You know, w we've we've kind of touched on in in the beginning, very beginning episodes, you know, words matter, right? The way things are are or or or phrased, you know, changes context and Randy: But I but but I've always interpreted like that verse, the power of life and death, death is in the tongue, as you could build up or you could tear down, like, you know, spiritually, like mentally, emotionally more so, or or even if you want to go to an extremes, yeah, you could potentially kill someone if you are in a position of authority by speaking a word, you know, off with their head, right? If you're a a ruler of some sort. That's kind of how I interpreted it. ⁓ it sounds like it it's it could be interpreted though. Pj: Hundred percent. Right. Well. Randy: To a different level. Pj: Right. Well and and that's what I'm saying. I feel like I feel like there's a right way and a wrong way almost, you know what I mean? But but that's what I'm saying. It's that little twist of saying, Nope. You know, and and and don't get me wrong, y you know, in a in in agreement with the way you just explained it. That's I I I see it like that. And I do think that it's also important, you know, for like people to not, you know, j i if for no other reason than psychologically, which which I would say is in line with the way God designed us to be, you know. ⁓ using the example of of like a recovering addict or an alcoholic and they say, Hi, my name's PJ, I'm an alcoholic. ⁓ you know, I've I've been clean for it's like no, you know, you're you you you shouldn't r still refer to yourself as an alcoholic. You know what I mean? You you you could say, ⁓ you know, I'm I'm recovered or, you know, like we we call ourselves like people give the argument like, ⁓ you're you're not a a sinner anymore, you're you're redeemed and th those kind of things. And and so there's there's semantic and semantics there and some arguments Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: But but but yeah, I I can see, like you said, in my in my opinion, and I and not even just off what your head, like if somebody is is on the like verge of suicide and and you know, you're just like do it. I I you know, like you we we don't understand, you know, the the the the power Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Well the I I and I definitely do agree that there is, you know, that that words have power. And, you know, like you said, the quoting this verse is it depends exactly on how you want to interpret it and how you understand it. But it no matter how you interpret that verse, you know, the power of life and death is in a tongue, there's still is there's no arguing that there is power in what we say and what we believe. Pj: Right. Right. Randy: And that part is not what we're disagreeing with, you know, with Joel Olstein. We definitely agree with that. And I and I and I am a big believer that we should understand our true identity in Christ, who we are in Christ. That, you know, we have we the old man is dead and gone and has been buried. And and that's what was symbolized in the baptism when I was baptized. You know, I went underneath the water to symbolize my death. And I came out of the water to symbolize that now I'm I'm I'm a new creation. I have a new heart. I'm now a child of God. And I think that Pj: Right. Randy: Personally, I do believe that a lot of our problems stem from not fully understanding our our our identity and who we are in Christ and what we've received ⁓ as part of God's will for our life. I do believe that. ⁓ however, I I think there's a difference between understanding your identity in Christ and focusing on who the Bible says you are as a believer and, you know, quote unquote manifesting. And watching these things start to be attracted to you, watching health start looking for you and wealth start searching you out, and all the things that we heard Joel Osteen say. And to me, that there's a difference between understanding your identity and focusing on that and you know things somehow, you know, finding you. Pj: ⁓ yeah. So just another clip that I had saw in doing this research, man, ⁓ our our good old friend Kenneth Copeland. ⁓ at one point No, at one point in time, ⁓ I'm sure he does, but ⁓ I'm ⁓ at one point in time Kenneth Copeland had his congregation l put their hands on their heads, they were laying hands on their heads and they were praying away the baldness. Hair will grow in in in Jesus' name. And I'm like, whoa, I feel like that's Randy: Don't tell me Kenneth Copeland says something somewhere. ⁓ well. Pj: Borderline blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, man. Like, what are y'all doing? Like he like, that we're gonna manifest miracles. And I'm like, I mean, you can look it up. I mean, this stuff is all out there. And Randy: Yeah, that's that's crazy. That's that that I mean, yeah, I mean so there's other people on our list who have done stuff like that too, we'll get to, but just hearing that, like we're gonna we're gonna pray away baldness, I mean that that just doesn't I don't see where the Bible, you know, lines up with somet something like that. Pj: Yes. No. Well and I think you know, if if you're really paying attention, I think that what what anyone listening right now is going to notice is these little similarities with everybody. They all have their own very, you know, out there things that they say, but it's you know, kind of what what Randy and I are are are are hoping that y'all are picking up is is that it's these things, it's just little subtle changes. Right. It's just a little little twisting that that that Randy: Well, and it goes back to what we talked about previously about context and understanding the context and the culture of the time. You know, I've heard a a really good pastor that I like say that, you know, sometimes, and I forget exactly how he says it, but he says basically there are times when we're reading the Bible where we're reading someone else's mail. And I mean, when you read the Sermon on the Mount, for example, and you're listening to Jesus, the last old covenant prophet. Pj: Mm-hmm. Randy: Tell everyone what they need to do to be saved, knowing that he's going to eventually die to save everybody. But he's telling them what they should be doing right now, at that moment in time, to be saved. We're reading someone else's mail in that instance. And if we try to apply the things he said and we start gouging out eyes and cutting off hands and trying to be perfect and all these things, we're not really relying on the sacrifice of Christ and his grace, are we? And there are times in the Bible when we're reading other people's mail, and that's why it's so important that. Pj: Hundred percent. Randy: Like you said, we we there's little s subtle nuances in the way things are said or the way things are shared that make a big difference in the understanding of the message. And a lot of times you could do that and you could you could twist the scriptures if you're not focusing on the culture and the context and the full picture. Pj: Right. And the problem with like a lot of these prosperity gospel preachers, ⁓ it ⁓ dang, ⁓ let cats out cats out the bang. Randy: ⁓ you said it. Cats out the bag. A lot of these top ten are prosperity gospel. Quote unquote. Pj: Hundred hundred percent. Yeah. And and so what what they do is is they they try to preach this message that makes scripture about us. Right? They they make it to where ⁓ you know, where do we fit into the story? You know what I mean? What's our perspective or our feelings or just like just these different things, like what's our struggles, what's our successes? What you know, what what does what what can God give to you? You know what I mean? And and I believe ⁓ from the research that I found, they have a a a a word for that is called narc narcesis. Have you heard of that? Jesus. Randy: Narcegesis. It sounds like narcissism and exegesis combined. Pj: Basically. And and it it's whenever you basically read yourself into into the Bible. And and and scripture is not about us, it's about Jesus. You know what I mean? Randy: Interesting. Interesting. Right. Well, and just to be fair to the quote unquote prosperity gospel preachers, they call themselves, I believe, word of faith. They call it the word of faith movement, I believe is the term that they use. Pj: Well well, so I I got a a a definition here of what the prosperity gospel is. And this is a this is according to co-pilot search. This is just a I'm guessing what this is AI that they do at the top of everything that you search now on Google. So it says the prosperity gospel is a Christian teaching that faith, positive declarations, and donations to the church can bring believers health, wealth, and happiness in this life. ⁓ definition. Randy: All right. Well let's hear it. Big emphasis on donations to the church. Pj: Yeah. Definitions of core beliefs. The prosperity gospel, also known as the health and wealth gospel, word of faith movement, or name it-claim it theology, teaches that God desires believers to be materially prosperous and physically healthy. Adherents believe that faith expressed through positive thinking, verbal affirmations, and financial giving can attract blessings, including wealth, success, and well-being into their lives. Illness and poverty and misfortune are often views as curses that can be overcome. Through faith in divine favor and tithing, I'm sure. So yeah, I mean, which ⁓ sounds like it aligns perfectly with what we just heard Joel Olstein preaching. Randy: Yeah. Yeah. And and look, I will say this, man. ⁓ I'm gonna have to look up the Bible verse, but I've heard in a lot of churches that I've been to where people, pastors are preaching about tithe, and they say, This is the only time God tells us to test them. It's in this, and they say, you know, test me, give your tithe, and you're gonna be blessed. And I and we gotta find the verse because I forget the verse. And every time, and I've heard this online, I've heard this in podcasts and sermons, I've heard this in person. Every time there's a story, they tell a story, or someone might even stand up and share a testimony, and they'll talk about how they got laid off, they had no money left in the bank, and they gave their last few dollars. And then next thing you know, there was a check in the mail for their exact rent that was due. Okay. And and I've heard these stories, and and and I'm sure you probably have too. And and look, in in the churches that I've been going to, these are not churches I would I would classify as word of faith churches or prosperity gospel preachers or anything like this. But I could just say, I'm just I'm just bringing this up to say that if I've heard that in non-denominational Christian churches that I've been a part of, I am sure that if you listen to these these pastors in these mega churches for any amount of time, you are going to hear them say something very similar. And from the way you just defined it, it lines up perfectly because I could see them probably using those same verses out of context where God says, you know, test me in this, give your you know, put your tithe in a storehouse, whatever, blah blah blah. I could see them taking that and say, Look, it's right here in the Bible, right here in the Bible. God's telling you, you gotta tithe. And I've seen some of these preachers, I think it was actually ⁓ Kenneth Copeland. I saw there's there's videos of talking about, you know, basically telling people, look. You don't got money to bake, you still need to tithe. Your kids don't got food to eat, you still need to tithe. You don't got a job, you still need to tithe. Like it's the most important thing in the world. And I just have to ask, if they didn't focus on that so much, would they still have, would they still be in the top 10 most wealthiest pastors? Would they still have such a big mega church? Pj: ⁓ I I I doubt it. I I I firmly believe that ⁓ if like if if they put a a salary cap on on what a a pastor can make just period they then then there would be a lot less of ⁓ Now that's not to say that that I mean do I believe that pastors should be paid for what they're doing? Absolutely. You know what I mean? Like I don't have anything against that. But I'm just saying if If it if if for a lot of these people it wasn't almost like a get rich quick scheme, I think that they wouldn't be in it. You know what I mean? Because I I I know that sounds judgmental, but I mean just this is based off of what I've seen and and some of the s things that I've heard. I I I mean, this this has afforded these people just a lifestyle and I think that sometimes that, you know, even if they started out with the best of intentions, maybe their intentions was to preach the the true gospel of Jesus and and you know, this money came and all of a sudden there was this blind spot and and they never they never got out of it. I d I don't know. But Randy: Right. Yeah. And and and I have to give people the benefit of the doubt, right? I have to say that look, I'm gonna say maybe they truly, truly believe this. Maybe they truly believe this, that they are really trying to preach the gospel. And look, we know that Paul, Paul tells us, and I forget what which epistle, but Paul tells us, like, yeah, there are some people who are out there preaching the gospel for selfish gain, but you know what? The gospel's being preached, so just let ⁓ be. Right. So so okay, so I'm not I don't want to tear down these pastors. I just want to point out that Pj: Right. Randy: I do think there's some flaws in what they're teaching. And I do think it speaks volumes about the church that so many people would flock to this type of prosperity gospel. ⁓ I mean, I forget the exact numbers, but you know, it's something like 50 grand a year. Like if you make 50 grand a year a household income, you're like in the top like 10% of the world or something like that. So pretty much most people in America are like in the top 10% wealthiest people in the world. Pj: Mm. Randy: But yet that's where we see most people flock into mega churches and prosperity gr gospels. Like we want to have even more than what we already have. And so I'm gonna give these guys the benefit of the mount the doubt and say, look, they're probably, you know, their hearts probably really trying to spread the gospel. They probably truly believe this stuff that if people really do tithe and really do, you know, give ⁓ to their ministry that God will bless them. I'm not gonna judge them and say, you know. They don't believe it and they're just lying to get money. However, I think I'm sure for to the to the non believer, that's exactly what it looks like. Pj: Yeah. Well and and and so I did come a come across an interest interesting quote that that I I mean it makes it makes sense. ⁓ and I I think from what I read it it's falsely ⁓ falsely like attributed to John Calvin, even though there's no direct evidence, but it it ⁓ it said that no theologian is more than eighty percent right. And and and so, you know, the the problem with that is for any theologian is well what Randy: Hm. Well. Pj: knowing what the twenty percent that you're wrong about is. You know what mean? But but I mean, you know, it it's it's ⁓ it it's important to to understand that nobody has it completely all figured out. So, you know, that we we do give each other grace. And Randy: Right, right. We so so we should give each other grace and we should also have humility, including these pastors. They should have some humility. Pj: Right, hundred percent. Right. Right, right, a hundred percent. And and and and that's so just so we're clear, ⁓ this is a conversation that that you and I had because some of these people say some very outlandish things, you know, like I said, ⁓ Kenneth Copeland ⁓ called God the biggest loser, and and and you know, said that we our DNA is the exact same as Jesus' and and all these things. Randy: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Pj: That's not to say that he's never said anything that that was in alignment with the word of God. So, you know, like we talked about before, in some instances you can't throw out the baby with the bathwater. You know what I mean? If if no theologian is more than 80% right, you know, hey, maybe these guys are 50% right. Maybe. But I I mean there's still there there is some stuff there. You just have to use discernment on on on you know what you can get. Randy: Right, right. Let's ⁓ let me check AI on that. I wanna I'd like to hear the full quote on that. So you said that Kenneth Copeland said that we have the same DNA as Jesus. Pj: He said ⁓ Yeah, he said let me see, I have it written down. ⁓ he just said that our DNA and Jesus DNA are exact. Randy: So I'm just curious, is he just trying to say that he was fully human like we are? Or what's your thoughts on that? Pj: ⁓ I I mean, ba based off of what he said, which I I I saw a a little clip of it. I went through a lot of stuff. ⁓ to me I would say that that's that's a hundred percent false, man. I I so my problem with that is the same problem, I guess, if we're we're gonna call that, with ⁓ parts ⁓ the the the ⁓ the ⁓ what's the word I'm looking for? The different versions of the Bible that that in John sixteen they they Randy: Mm-hmm. Pj: take out the word, you know, begotten. You know, whenever they said, you know, God gave his only son, like I don't agree with that, right? Because it's like Jesus wasn't God's only son. We're we're sons of God. Randy: Yeah, or or like the Jehovah's Witnesses take out in John where it says, And the word was God, and the beginning was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God, and they like leave that last part out. Pj: Right, right. Right. Right. Well and and so like the word begotten means like of, you know what I mean? Like it Jesus was God's only begotten son. He was of God and and in that in that way, you know, it was it was the him being a hundred percent God and a hundred percent man. Like, you know what I mean? I I think that Randy: Right, right. He is made of the same substance that God is made out of. Pj: Right. Right. B and but so to say that our DNA is the exact thing, I would say that that's false, a hundred percent, because you know, I wasn't immaculately conceived through the Holy Spirit, you know what I mean? I would say we have similarities in DNA, a hundred percent, but Randy: Yeah. Well I Yeah, let me let me read the quote that I got here. So I got one that says, ⁓ this is this is saying Kenneth Copeland said, You've got my spiritual DNA. Your DNA and Jesus' DNA are exact. You're exactly like him. It says that this was in a believer's voice of victory broadcast about spiritual DNA, where Copeland describes a conversation that he says he had with God and recounts it in this way. He says, The Lord said to me, Kenneth, you're paying attention to your natural DNA. Pj: Mm-hmm. Randy: Don't you remember in my word it says that you're born again, not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible by the word of God that lives and abides forever. You've got my spiritual DNA. Pj: Yeah, and then and then you have somebody like Stephen Furtick who also not only called himself God Almighty, but then he said that what he said, ⁓ when God sees you, he sees himself. Like, no, he should see him s his son, but he he di but Randy: Well, he should see his son, which I again again, like to he even even there I could kind of see and this is not just me being devil's advocate, this is maybe just kind of giving them a little bit more benefit of the doubt. I could kind of see that. If you're saying Jesus and God are one and the same and he should see his son when he sees us, if I'm really giving if I'm really being generous, I could kind of see what they're saying. ⁓ but the problem sorry, go ahead. Go ahead. Pj: Well well but no no I I'm saying so i the difference is he should we you know he should see Jesus in us, but th th this guy is saying no, when God looks at you he sees himself like Randy: Well, here's what here's where I have a problem, and this is this may be where you're going. One of the quotes that Kenneth Copeland is most criticized for saying is he says you don't have a God in you, you are one. That's something that Kenneth Copeland said. That's something that Stephen Fur Furric Furlick has said, something very similar. But basically what they're saying is that it it it exactly, and this is where again we go back to like the the secret and the and the word of faith movement. Pj: And that's Yes. And and what doctrine is that though? You know what I mean? That you are God. Randy: And and how those two kind of align with each other, because you know, the critics have argued that, you know, sometimes he blurs, this is Kenneth Copeland, the line between the creator and the creature. And he's going beyond what scripture teaches. This is what the AISAN critics ⁓ say this, but I think you and I would agree that that's what we hear going on as well. But Copeland is defending this use of language, saying that. Pj: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Randy: Because believers are made in God's image when we're born again, that's how he justifies it. Which again, if I'm being very generous and I'm very, very gracious ⁓ in in in his interpretation, I could kind of see what he's saying, but I think I think I think people in that position gotta be more careful. Pj: Man, I and I think it's a tale as old as time. I I think it's c goes down to the very beginning, to the to the dagum fall. Whenever the serpent, yeah, the he you're not gonna die. You're gonna be like God. That's what's and and and that that's these the messages that they sprinkle, like you know, like I said, so to the extent of mind you, they they're all running these same circles, they all go to visit each other's churches and and pump each other up. ⁓ look at the this Stephen Furtick called Randy: You be like God. That's kind of what it sounds like. Yeah. Pj: called Joyce Myers the greatest Bible teacher of our generation. I'm like, are you kidding me? I I I highly disagree. Randy: I don't think we're gonna get into Joyce Joyce Myers very much today, man, but that's that's interesting that he said that. Pj: ⁓ but but but yeah, but then he he's very well known for for saying, you know, I have I have the spirit of God living inside me. I am God Almighty. Direct quote, Stephen Furton. Randy: Now that's one we should play. But before we do that, let me go back to Joel Olstein. Because we talked about some of the criticisms of Kenneth Copeland. And we're a little bit, we're kind of bouncing all over a little bit here. But but but we talked about some of the criticisms of Kenneth Copeland. ⁓ Joel Olstein, so we played a clip of Joel Olstein. Some of the criticisms that they both share as people criticize them for this whole, you know, prosperity gospel that they teach, whether they would claim that or not. That's what people hear, and that's what the critics are saying is they're preaching this prosperity gospel. Other criticisms of Joel Olstein has been that he focuses more on self-improvement and favor than on actually preaching the word of God. So some have argued, is he actually even a pastor, or is he like a motivational self-help guru? Right. Because some of the things that he has been quoted as saying is God wants to increase you financially. Now, I don't know that to be true. I I really don't know that God really cares that much about. Me increasing financially. I really don't know that I read that in the Bible anywhere that God cares. I I I hear, I hear that God wants me to bear fruit. And I don't necessarily tie those two things as being synonymous, bearing fruit and increasing financially. To me, bearing fruit means I am sharing the gospel and more people are being saved, or I'm bearing spiritual fruit and I'm showing more peace and patience and kindness and love. I don't see financial prosperity or an increase financially as being the same as either fruitful or bearing fruit. Pj: And I and how how funny that you you bring up the bearing fruit because in the context of the Sermon on the Mount, he was referring to f false teachers or, you know, people teaching the right doctrine. And and and you know, the the funny thing is is is ⁓ whenever it comes to financial increase, ⁓ didn't Jesus tell the the wealthy man to give up all his riches and follow him and then proceeded to say, Hey, look, it'll be easier for ⁓ the you know, a camel to pass through the eye of a needle. Randy: He did. Pj: Like so does that sound like he's like, ⁓ yeah, you should definitely have more money. You know what? Now don't get me wrong it Randy: That's that's a good point. If if Jesus in his own words says it is harder for a rich person to go through the eye of an eel than to enter the kingdom of heaven, whatever was meant by that, and I know that you know really smart people have debated that for a long time. What whatever is meant by that, we could both agree that what he's saying is it's really hard, right? Pj: Doesn't Yeah. Yeah. And what he's not saying is that hey, ⁓ you should increase it. You you should in yeah, yeah. Randy: Right. So if it's really hard, does he really want it to make it harder for for people? And if you're telling me that Jesus himself says that it's gonna be harder for me to enter the kingdom if I'm really well off and rich, then how can you also say, well, Jesus wants you to be well off and rich? In other words, you're telling me Jesus wants to make it as hard for me as possible to enter the kingdom of God. I I I I think I think look, I think if a person is really rich or really well off or really poor, they could all enter the kingdom of God. But I think even the early church taught that if you were a slave, now this was not a this was not the early church advocating for slavery. This was the early church saying if you find yourself a slave, be the best slave you could be and represent Jesus well, represent God well. If you find yourself a ruler, this is not advocating that everyone should be a ruler. Be the best ruler, be a just ruler, be a righteous ruler, don't show favoritism, don't show partiality, right? Like we see that in in the in the word, but we don't see we don't see God telling us to necessarily change what we are. Pj: Well yeah. I I'm pretty sure Right. Well and and I I think in that part that you're talking about where it's like, hey, if you're gonna be a slave and your master's not treating you right, don't treat him based off of how he's treating you. Treat him as if your master was God, which he is. You know what I mean? But like it's basically saying like re regardless, be the best slave that you can be. Doesn't matter if your your master is is acknowledging that. No, you you look past him and you're like, Man, I'm doing this for God. I'm you know, so yeah, I I just don't see where where, you know, Randy: Right, right. Pj: making a claim like God wants you to increase financially, like man, I I I I feel like, you know, maybe they point to, you know, for I know the plans that I have for you, plans to prosper for you, plans for a future, you know, all those things. Like, but but guess what? Prospering us and and and financial is not synonymous, man. I I I don't think. You know what I mean? And and like you said, I don't think that there's anything wrong with with ha being blessed. And and 'cause the Bible does said to Randy: Yeah. Yeah. Pj: You know, to whom much is given, much is expected, right? So Randy: Right, right. And and and let me just say this too, like to just say a blanket statement like that. Like if you're a pastor just talking to a church, and by the way, we're not talking about a church of a few hundred people, we're talking about a church of tens of thousands of people. We should look up and see how many people Pj: I think I think it was I think I saw it as like fifty thousand a week. Fifty th thousand. Yeah. Something like that, yeah. Randy: 50,000 a week attend Joel Olstein's church. Okay, so 50,000 people. We're not talking about 500. We're talking about 50,000 people. To make a blanket statement like that, look, I could tell you for a fact, there are 100% people listening to that message that God does not want to grow them financially. You know why? Because he knows what the what it will do to them and it will destroy them to be financially well off. Pj: Absolutely. Randy: And there are and there are probably other people listening to that message that God does want to grow financially because he knows the ministries that they will build or they will give to the good fruit that will come out of that and how they're gonna bless other people with that. So I could I could one hundred with 100% confidence say that there are probably people in there that that's true for, and there are definitely people in there that's not true for. So to make a blanket statement like that, that you know, anyone who's listening to him, anyone who's giving to him. Pj: Yes. Randy: that God wants that for them, I just I can't I can't see that as being you know, biblical. Pj: Right, and especially whenever I feel like it it goes against some of the stuff, like I said, that we do know that the word says. Like also, ⁓ where it talks about storing up your treasures in heaven rather than focusing on earthly possessions in in First Timothy and and and Matthew and Acts and you know, it's like there we see all these examples of of the opposite, ⁓ at l at least. You know what mean? So like I said Randy: Well, and and since you since you mentioned, you know, that the storing up of treasures, one thing that we should probably mention too is that, you know, at least the first two that we've talked about, Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen, and I'll even say number three on the list, which I believe number three was ⁓ yeah, ⁓ Pat Robertson. No, no, Pat Robertson passed away. But our friend from Louisiana, Jesse Duplanis, ⁓ Pj: Mm-hmm. Randy: He those are three that come to mind for me. And actually, I mean some of these other ones as well. TD Jakes is probably another one that when I think of like a lifestyle of the rich and famous, when I think of a lifestyle of like wearing wealth on their bodies, living in fabulous homes, buying extravagant, you know, possessions, like, okay, where are you storing up your wealth and how are you really representing the kingdom by having all these things when there are so many ministries? Pj: ⁓ yeah. Randy: Out there, whether it's you know financing upstart churches, missionaries, or like rescuing people that are you know being trafficked. There's so many good places for for the money to go and be invested into the kingdom of God where you would be storing up your treasures in heaven. How what's the justification for these people to you know just accumulate it? Pj: Yes. Randy: And and look and look, this is so different because I'm not judging the CEO necessarily of a company or f or or a mega mega star athlete who finds himself in that same position. I'm talking about people who build their wealth through the church, through the preaching of the gospel. Pj: Yeah. I mean Solomon was wealthy. You know what I mean? He was the what wasn't he the wealthiest king, you know. Right. So y you know, so it's not it's it's not ⁓ about that, man. It it's I guess, you know, it's I think it all comes back to a heart thing for sure. But like the crazy thing, getting back to Jesse Duplanis, his house in in New Orleans, at one point in time I want to say that it was like one of if not the Randy: Supposedly, yeah, the richest to ever lived, yeah. Pj: biggest house in Louisiana, if I remember correctly. I remember there being some kind of thing, you know, and and I mean driving around in in a in a Rolls Royce. You know what I mean? And and and that's the thing. He he said something about like, you know, and and again, it's like, how can these these people say these things about our our Lord and Savior? He said, I really believe that if Jesus was physically on earth today, he wouldn't be riding a donkey. And I'm like, ⁓ do you Randy: Well Pj: D you understand like he is he's God, right? Like i he he chose to ride a donkey for a reason, not because he had to. You know what I mean? Like ⁓ d so are you telling me that if if Jesus was physically on the earth today that you'd see him in a bens? No, I don't you know what I mean? Like it's just it's just absurd things like that, man. Like the making these claims to try to justify, you know, maybe the fleshly desires that you have, like, it's just wild, man. It's just Randy: It it is it is wild, man. It's it's so wild. And you know, I the craziest thing to think about. I don't know if you've ever heard some of the stories about, and I'll just I'll just throw out an actor, Keanu Reeves. There's been stories of this guy who has guy who rides the subway in New York. This is a guy who's given up his salary for movies he's been in so that all the cast and crew could get like a multi-hundred thousand dollar bonus by just giving up his salary. Pj: Mm-hmm. Randy: And I've never heard the guy get up there and preach a gospel sermon or even give a testimony. But if you got an actor who's out there who's doing things like that, ⁓ because they have humility and they have generosity in them and they have love for the people around them, and you got people who supposedly are representing the kingdom of God who are doing the exact opposite, it's just to me, it's just not a good look. And I do believe that the Bible is very clear. That as you know, leaders in the church, you are going to be judged at a higher standard and that you should live a lifestyle that's above reproach. In other words, above reproach means no one can make an accusation against you. You are like guarding, you are putting like hedges around your life. And then you are guarding those hedges to make sure that, you know, there is not even ⁓ any possible accusation that could be made. Because you are just going so above and beyond because of your station, because of your position, because of the influence and the impact that you have, right? That that's that's what I see in the Bible. And so I w when I when I look at, you know, the accusations that are hurled at these guys, whether they're true or false accusations, whether they're on point or accurate or justified or not, the fact that they've put themselves in a position to where those accusations, you know, have any kind of a merit. Pj: Yes. Randy: You know, it it just tells me they are not living up to that standard of, you know, being above reproach and they are being judged as as as a byproduct, they are being judged to a higher standard while here on earth of nothing else. And we know the Bible says they'll, you know, be charged to a you know, judged at a even higher standard ultimately. So Pj: Yep. And and you know, I think that that's very it that seeing this stuff, I think it's all very, very strategic. I think that counterfici counterfeiting Christians is probably the main strategy of the devil. You know what I mean? In the same way that he himself is able to transform into an angel of light. It's like, man, if I can get these ministers out here who look like they're representing light, look like they're they're disguised as Christians, but they're really minions of hell. Randy: Mm. Pj: then then they can sold these little things and and you know what I mean and and so that's why I believe you know ultimately what it comes down to man is is like having a superficial understanding of scripture produces superficial worship superficial activity you think you understand but nobody's like people you you have to think these fifty thousand people are going there listening to what this dude says because they're like ⁓ look Randy: Yeah. Pj: Obviously, he's blessed by God. Look at everything that he has. They think that that's a blessing themselves. And and you got them telling them, like, you know what? God wants to increase you financially. Look what he's done for me. So obviously I have God's favor. Obviously, blah, blah, blah. And so people hear this message. They never go home and get in their Bible and and read God's word and develop a relationship with him for themselves. And so they're just basing their whole faith, everything they believe, ⁓ all this off of what he's saying. And and he's wrong. And and I think that in that way, the devil's like, Gotcha. Randy: Mm. Pj: You know what I mean? Gotcha. Let me give you a false sense of of salvation. You know what I mean? Because you're too lazy and and and superficial to to go and develop your own relationship. You know, we have all the resources to it in in the world. You know what I mean? We have ⁓ at at this point, we have books and and AI that will explain scripture to you or whatever. I mean, there's no reason, there's no excuse for not getting in the word and at least trying to understand it for yourself. You know what mean? I I've heard people, you know, say, ⁓ well, I I I have comprehension problems. I I get that and I understand that I know people do. I I have some myself, but there's so many resources anymore. You know what I mean? I I like the ⁓ I mean, whoever wrote this Bible that I I use all the time, there's a bunch of theologians' notes and thoughts and I'm like, ⁓ cool. I can go check that against other things. I mean, you can Google whatever you want. Thank thank the good Lord. Randy: Yeah. Pj: even though I think that we're probably moving towards this way, they haven't necessarily outlawed us talking about God or or researching things about God yet. You know what I mean? So there there's really no excuse for us just following these these, you know, blind, you know, having the blind lead the blind anymore. Randy: Yeah, 100%, 100%. And the last thing I wanted to touch on before we wrap for today, and we're gonna definitely have to come back to this topic because I do want to get into some of these other pastors on this list. But the idea that, you know, should churches of this size, mega churches of tens of thousands of people, should they even exist? Because I will tell you that the more I think about, you know, some of the issues that we're discussing, some of the criticisms. Hurled at some of these guys. and just just the idea in general of a church of tens of thousands of people with like one, you know, pastor over them. I mean, I I I have to question and I and have to think like, is that really ideal? Is that really the best design? Is that really what God intended, you know, as a church developed? And I mean, I've I've heard people say. You know, there are certain denominations, and I and I can't remember which ones, but there are certain denominations that say that churches should limit themselves to no more than a couple hundred people, that anything beyond that, it pretty much becomes too watered down, or the pastors can't really have the right relationships with you know the the the participants, the attendees that they should. ⁓ and I hate and I would never, you know, feel comfortable drawing a line and saying like 500 is the max, like churches should never have more than 500 people under any circumstances because I I'm definitely a big believer in there's lots of variables, right? There's lots of variables, but I also have to think to myself, is it the best for the growth of the participants, the leaders in the congregation, etc., to have a church with that many people when you have. For example, a church with 50,000 people and they all gather in one building. None of them probably ever ⁓ not none of them, the vast majority of them probably never even meet the pastor, much less get to know him. ⁓ and and then I gotta think it's funny because I actually saw ⁓ the Babylon Bee. Do you ever follow the Babylon Bee? They always got the funniest, funniest memes. and it one of the memes I just saw the other day said that the ⁓ mega church was gonna be ⁓ offering out a lottery and one lucky participant was gonna actually get to meet the pastor. And it's like that's so true. But it's like on on on the sad side of it, I gotta think how many people in that church have spiritual gifts that they're not using, that they're not utilizing because we have this one person over so many. You know what I mean? Pj: Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And and a hundred percent, man. And and I think that that's the problem. I think that mega churches, in my opinion, are a byproduct of our Western civilization culture, right? We're we're we we you know, we're we're consumer based. So the reason why you have fifty thousand people coming to the same service is because they just wanna consume, consume, consume and they're not out there doing what this word is supposed to be encouraging us to do. You know, the the thing about it is is would it be awesome if Randy: Yeah. Pj: If every week there was fifty thousand people who'd never heard the gospel preached and and and they were coming to know Jesus for the first time, absolutely do that. But but for people to just say, ⁓ you know what, I'm checking my box. I go to the biggest church that there is, I tithe more than everybody else. My pastor's well more well known, you know, blah blah blah, like it very consumeristic mind mind frames, you know what I mean? And I think that that's where these mega churches came from. You know, because all all like the crazy thing is is We had a guy come to our church who's a missionary in Indonesia and it's illegal now, right now, to to preach the gospel. You can't talk about God openly. It's a it's a crime. Right? So, and and it's also apparently it has like the highest cause concentration of Muslims in Ind Indonesia as well. And so you can't ⁓ w how how do they say that? You can't ⁓ Randy: Mm-hmm. Can't be openly Christian or Pj: Right. At at all. So anyways, the way that they're they're they have this ministry where like ⁓ like they're they'll invite people over to their house and they'll just play Christian programming and so they're not they're not teaching or trying to share their faith. There it's just a a thing playing and it's their choice or whether or not they want to watch it kind of thing. But it's like, you know, you you think about stuff like that, like how how much could could those kind of things use these kind of resources? You know what I mean, instead of us just sitting here fat and happy Randy: I gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. Pj: i consuming all this word, never sharing any of it. And and, you know, it it's sad, but it's probably a good thing at the same time 'cause it's like, man, if if it's the wrong message, you know what I mean? You don't want to spread that more than it's already being spread, unfortunately. But yeah, man, it's just it's crazy. Randy: Right, right. Well, i I think you're onto something there, man. I think it is consumerism at its worst. And all I'm gonna say is ⁓ if you're the type of person who don't shop at like Walmart because you don't like big chains and big corporations, so you pay extra to go shop at the little little ma and pa places and you don't go to the grocery stores, you buy all your produce fresh to support the local farmers. Pj: Yes. Randy: Then I better not catch you at no Joe Osteen church either. You need to be out there at the little church with a hundred people and you need to be serving because that's the only way you can stay consistent. Pj: All right. Absolutely. Absolutely, man. And and I think that that's what it what it's for. You know what I mean? Like ⁓ man, it it's it's wild. Randy: Yeah, I do think that there's ⁓ I think that's a big part of it. I'm glad you brought that up. And I think that it is a big missed opportunity to develop and to use our spiritual gifts because when you got a church of fifty thousand people, sure, I'm sure there's a lot of people who serve, but I'm sure there's a lot fewer people who would be serving and using their spiritual gifts if instead of you know a ch one church of fifty thousand, you had, you know, fifty churches of a thousand or a hundred churches of five hundred. Pj: Yes. Randy: I mean, just think about that. And and so, you know, I'll I'll just leave that, you know, I'll leave that where it is and you know, just as something to think about because it's something that I've thought about for a while, especially as we start to talk about this topic of mega churches. Pj: Well yeah, and then you know, w one thing that I've I've been kinda getting back into is is I started going to a discipleship class, man. And I tell you what, I i it it kind of brought me back to our our youth group days. Like I love that intimate setting, right? Where you're circled up and you're having a an open conversation about these things and you're able to ask the questions. You're able to have you're you're you're able to be engaged. You're able to actually learn things instead of just being t told a bunch of things. You know what I mean? Like ⁓ so i I I I love that. And and I think that you definitely lose that in in a place where like you said, it's like the the pastor would be there till next Sunday just trying to tell everybody, hey, good morning. Like you remember Pastor Dave used to tell us, Hey, good morning, you know, or the w at the end, like see ya later, whatever. Like he was you know, you could shake his hand before you walked out and went home. And and, you know, you lose that in in in these places where you're basically just a number. You know what I mean? And and I and I think that that there's a lot of missed opportunities and and you hit the nail on the head. I mean, this is Randy: Right. Right, right. Pj: This is episode one of who knows how many because there's there's so much stuff here. And and and I'd be interested to know, like, I mean, ⁓ you know, I'm sure there there are some I mean, apparently a ton of people out there who who follow Kennet Copeland and Joel Olstein, you know. I'd like to know what their takes on it. If they've you know, what experiences they've had. ⁓ also for for anybody else listening, like is is there anybody else that you've heard of that maybe we haven't? Like what what kind of Randy: Right. Pj: Things are out there being said and it doesn't have to negatively it ⁓ it doesn't have to be negative things, you know, it doesn't that's not we're not trying to trying to bash anybody, but what what we're trying to ⁓ illuminate here is that these guys have some of the biggest platforms that there are in in the Christian space and and we're just trying to to make people aware of whether or not it's being used in the right way. ⁓ or you know, maybe some stronger discernment needs to be had whenever whenever you're you're sitting there allowing allowing them to, you know, interpret the the word of God for you if you're not gonna interpret it for yourself. So Randy: Yeah, yeah, 100%, man. I think we are definitely so we we only got through two of the ten, the ten pastors that we listed, ⁓ in terms of the top ten mega church pastors. And you know, so I definitely want to go through all 10 of these. We've talked about two of them today. And matter of fact, you know, we have different feelings. And I personally, there's at least one pastor on this list that everything I've heard from him has been very positive. And I'll be interested to hear from you and any of our listeners. Pj: Ha ha Randy: ⁓ if you know they have a different take on, you know, what he has to say. But with that in mind, I I just want to double down on what you said. If there are people out there who, you know, maybe think we were a little too negative or too harsh, or you see things differently, please share the way you see Kenneth Copeland and Joel Osteen, since those are the two we mentioned today. And if there are other pastors who are not on our list of pastors to kind of listen to and give our thoughts on that you think, hey. What is your take on this, good or bad? Just you you're just curious to hear what we have to say ⁓ about maybe a message you heard or, you know, a pastor's teachings in general. Please just let us know in the comments and we will definitely ⁓ you know take a look and you know give you our thoughts on, you know, what those pastors are all about and what their teachings ⁓ really are and how we, you know, feel they reflect the word of God and and the way we understand the gospel. Pj: Absolutely. And I mean there's there's a couple pastors that that I I'd like to talk about in in upcoming episodes that aren't even on this list at all. But I just, you know, really solid, you know, teaching from what I've seen. Don't get me wrong. Again, I I don't I I've I haven't found a pastor, preacher, anyone yet that I agree with a hundred percent. And I I I I don't think that I I I ever will. And you know, I I think it comes down to Randy: Same. Pj: the the whole eighty percent right thing, you know, and and and and so th there's always gonna be but that doesn't mean again that they're not they're not, you know, saying things that are in line with the word of God at all. So but ⁓ but yeah there are some guys that I wanna talk about and and I'm interested interested to see who who maybe gets dropped in the comments that that we might not know about that that might be somebody that we end up, you know, checking out their stuff and and and adding to the list of people w that we do watch and follow. So Randy: Alright, man. Well, hey, I think that does it for mega church pastors part one. Part one. Y'all look for part two because there's definitely going to be a part two. And with that, I think that pretty much does it for this episode of the walk talk. So thank you all so much for listening. If you don't already, please subscribe, follow, like the show. And before you go, make sure to let us know what you think in the comments down below. God bless. Pj: Part one, yeah. Of many. Yeah. God bless. Randy: Alrighty, let me hit stop.