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Convene Series: Designing for Belonging with Devon Montgomery Pasha: How Empathy, Data, and Values Drive Better Events · PCMA Convene Podcast

• Convene Podcast Transcript Designing for Belonging with Devon Montgomery Pasha: How Empathy, Data, and Values Drive Better Events *Note: the transcript is AI generated, excuse typos and inaccuracies Magdalina Atanassova: Welcome to this Season eight episode of the Convene Podcast, brought to you by Visit Anaheim. What does it really mean to design for belonging—and how do we actually do it? Today’s guest, Devon Montgomery Pasha, is here to break that down. Devon is an event emcee, facilitator, and “experience engineer” with more than 20 years of experience reimagining how we connect through events. She’s the founder of DMP Creative and the powerhouse behind the SPARK method—strategically designed to ignite creativity, connection, and impact. In this conversation, we talk about empathy-centered design, asking better questions, and why demographic data alone won’t help us build truly inclusive experiences. Devon shares the small but powerful shifts planners can make—and why sometimes, the most radical move is simply to pause. We start now. We start now. Devon Montgomery Pasha: It's so funny. Most people still, when they hear the word design, automatically go to some sort of aesthetic like, you know, how are things arranged or what do they look like? And how are you interpreting information in terms of design, which is a very fundamental part of it. But where I want to shift the conversation and still keep bringing visibility to is the idea that we're trying to design the experience. And when we think about design, especially for designing events, designing experiences, the best way to do it is with a visual. So if you were going to build something, you know, you would look to an architect to make you a blueprint, right? If you were going to go, you know, make something, you look for the directions in the Lego box. So designing is like getting that blueprint. And so how many of us just open the box of Legos and start just constructing whatever's in there, hoping it looks like what it is on the front, but with absolutely no framework of where to go? So designing is the ability to ask the questions to create the framework, framework for the experiences that you want your stakeholders to have. In terms of designing for belonging, it's understanding what questions and what frameworks do you use in order to achieve the result of stakeholders achieving that sense of belonging at the event. And so you can design for, you know, ADA accessibility, you can design for neurodiversity, you can design for belonging, you can design for sustainability. Sustainability. You can design for all of these bigger concepts. It doesn't necessarily just have to be for behavior change or specific experience quality, but you can take this concept of designing, of asking questions, of empathy frameworks and think about how do I put together the guardrails, the blueprint, it's not the detailed final plan, it's the blueprint that allows you to understand where you want to go and have a reference to go back to when things shift throughout the planning or implementation process. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, I love this distinction because I would agree with you. People just go directly into playing with the parts instead of strategically putting them in place first. Your work centers around designing empathy centered experiences. So what practical steps can event planners take to infuse empathy into every stage of the event design? Devon Montgomery Pasha: I think it's actually a good question to remind ourselves that empathy should be a huge part of event design. And where I think a lot of our shifts are and a lot of our frictions are when we get to like the assessment part of our, of our phase is why didn't this work? It's like this should have worked or this was a great idea. Why aren't we seeing those desired results? And maybe when you go back and we kind of look, look into where maybe there was a misstep or where you're not seeing the result, it's probably because somewhere along the way an assumption was made about your stakeholders or their demographics that allowed you to believe that that particular idea would shift their behavior in that desired direction. So when you think about empathy centered approaches, it's being able to take yourself out of the equation and to ask a lot of poignant questions to really understand where people are coming from. And that could be for every single stage. I had another great teacher and colleague used to use the term sit in the attendees chair. And that was both mentally and physically. Like have you walked through the physical space to figure out, wow, if we use that set of bathrooms, that's actually a quarter mile in the opposite direction from the breakout that we're sending them to. This feels like a disconnect. Or you know, if you sit in their chair metaphorically and you're going through the system, if you're going through the invite process, if you're going through the content that you're offering, does it hit that person? Does it make an impact? Does it speak to something that they need? So utilizing those empathy based processes allows you to do your best to understand where they're coming from and then be able to design towards a desired outcome. So if your sentence is that people don't feel like they belong at your events or your clients events or in certain breakout spaces, then why, like why is that? And be able to go back and ask those questions without being challenged or feeling challenging. And I think that's the next part of the puzzle for a lot of us. And I'm watching Maggie nod like, yeah, just asking questions because for whatever reason, questions feel very challenging. Mainly because we ask them in a why status. Why are we doing this? Why wasn't this successful. And I think from a very anthropological standpoint, it's like, why didn't you clean your room and why didn't you get an A on that test? And it's a challenging question. You feel defensive. But how do we create permission to ask poignant questions to understand our stakeholders better and to understand why we need to design for belonging? What benchmarks haven't we hit? What KPIs are we not seeing success on? Are we not raising funds? Are we seeing a decrease in RSVPs or association membership? Like, like what? What are we missing? What is the perception of missing and how do we get there? And that sometimes is maybe an easier what and how questions are sometimes a little bit more gentle on the brain than why questions. But all in all it's, it's taking the time to ask them in safe spaces. And belonging is about safe spaces. So I think being able to understand empathy is about asking questions and getting information and belonging is about utilizing that to make people feel the most actualized or most authentic selves, to feel the most welcome. I think where the conversation goes is how do we get permission to ask as many questions as possible without feeling challenged or being labeled as challenging and when we can get there? I think belonging is a really easy byproduct of even empathy based planning sessions. Magdalina Atanassova: Yeah, you said so many things. We can go in so many directions here. Devon Montgomery Pasha: I feel like such a nerd right now. I'm like, I'll go on my soapbox. I'm like, let people ask questions, it's important. Magdalina Atanassova: No, that's true. You touch on demographics. So let me grab that. So demographics and attendee expectations are constantly evolving. So how can event planners really ensure that all voices feel represented and valued in meeting spaces? Devon Montgomery Pasha: I think the first thing to do is to think about demographics as a small piece of information, but not the most important information. A colleague of mine, good friend David Allison, does a lot of work in what's called value graphics, which I think is really what is the more important conversation. Because my demographic as a 40 year old, Caucasian, visually Caucasian, you know, mother, like all of these things would make you feel that, like this is what's going to drive a lot of my behavior. There's a lot of invisible parts of me that a lot of people don't know or, or wouldn't necessarily be visible on some sort of black and white piece of paper. So if you're only giving me experiences that speak to what I look like or what my perceived information is, it doesn't necessarily drive my behavior because it's what you don't see me, what I value, that actually controls the decisions and the value and that I make. So all that to say it's like, well everyone that we have is a Gen Z or you know, or a millennial, so they obviously are going to want XYZ thing. It used to be that we're like, oh well, we had to have all this non digital stuff for boomers or, or you know, older generations. Like, well they're actually pretty tech savvy, so why are we wasting all this paper when they're fully capable of using digital invites? And maybe one or two would appreciate a phone call, but we can clearly handle that from a, you know, from a human resources point of view. So I think it's starting to realize that that sort of black and white census data only tells you, only paints a part of the picture. The black and white picture where that sort of 360 rich color comes in, that's in value information, that's an empathy based color questions and that's what controls behavior and behavior controls decision making. And once we get into that mindset, I think we have a better ability to understand how to get our attendees to do what we want them to do, but also how to give them what we feel they want to be given in exchange for that attention and that purchase power and in those decisions. Magdalina Atanassova: And something interesting that I've also heard from other guests on the podcast that we often capture the voices of those that come, so we often don't try to reach out those that don't come to our events. So you speaking about values just made me think of that. Is there a way that you use to capture those voices and potentially turn those to attendees, those people? Devon Montgomery Pasha: You know, as you were saying that, I know there's a proverb that says like until, until lions learn to write or learn to speak, that's only the hun who control the narrative. And I think that's a very true statement for events, especially in a changing world where my time, my treasure, my dollars, my attention, all of these economy terminologies. I think especially in this terms of attention economy, it's how do you capture that and why are you capturing it? And so I know there's a lot of work in the belonging community too about ethically gotten data. Like, you know, how do I get emotional data in an ethical way to understand how you felt at that event, even if what you felt wasn't positive. And for those who may be registered and didn't come like yes, things happen. We know we're human. Things pop up at the last minute. But if you're not getting to those people, where do you get that information from? And it's how do you create a narrative or a conversation to say, why wouldn't you go to that event? And I think that's where empathy systems come back in. And again, it's asking the right questions. You know, a lot of time when I was working with clients and designing events, it was who's missing. So if you're thinking about all the stakeholders, a lot of times it goes to the ones you're the most successful and already capturing. You're very important. You already spend money here, you already buy this ticket, like great. You, you probably know them fairly well and they're showing a repeat behavior. But where is your company going? Where are their KPIs at the end of your strategic planning cycle, what does it look like in 5, 10, 15 years? Are you in a capital campaign? What does that final dollar amount look like? What are your engagement desired, engagement scores and who do you need to help you get there? And if that's not already a part of your demographic, it's not already part of the numbers. Those demographic numbers, as in making up the. You want to engage attendees in this age group and that's going to say demographic data is valuable data. And I want to make sure that we understand it's not, it's not totally irrelevant. It does give you great information, it's just not necessarily what's going to drive decision making. But all of these systems point to who aren't you asking and why aren't they coming? And how do you gather that data to see, well, our company has gone towards XYZ value system. Perhaps who we're not getting are people who don't align with those values. Maybe the 18 to 24 year old age group doesn't align with that values. But we're missing an entire customer base over here. Who does and how do we direct that? And it could be our marketing channels are directed in the wrong direction. What if we just tune the radio station a different way to get that message out to this other group and does that move the needle? And I think that's also being willing to try something different. Like if you're only using the same marketing channels and you're only using the same email list, then clearly you're only going to reach the same amount of people. If you want to catch a different type of fish, perhaps you need to use a different type of net And I'm realizing that's a bad metaphor because I know nothing about fishing. But hopefully it was visible enough to show that we have to be willing to start making changes to get where we want to go. And if you're seeing those gaps and you realizing that you're not reaching a certain amount of person or a certain type of person, or you're not filling your coffers with the right amount, or people aren't making the decisions you want them to make, there's probably a lot of in front of you that does and is going to decide what that means. Going back to the concept of belonging is while people are with you, they've already made that time. How are you ensuring that they are 100% authentic when they're there, that you're valid dating that choice and going back and, and ensuring that they tell one other person about that? Wow, this really reflected my values. I really felt at home here and I'm going to bring that next person. And I think this is where we're seeing a lot of the shift in the industry about, you know, who we're not capturing, why we're not getting this data is many times because it's a demographic just shift of like, yes, I am a person of this age group who got invited to this event. I came, I saw, I went, and I went home. If I don't feel like I belong, if I didn't get to unmask, if I didn't get to be my most authentic self, I probably am not going to share over much about my experience there and either will not come back or won't come back and bring someone to share the value of that experience with them. So if we're seeing these declines, it may be an indication that somewhere something is out of whack, that something is out of alignment. And while the event may be very successful to one of your stakeholders, it's probably not being successful to another. And in today's climate too, where events are really on the chopping block, it's not because they're not successful, it's just that they're not being deployed correctly and to the correct end. And I think now more than ever, it's so important to raise our voices to say it's not the event that's not successful, but we're using a spoon when we need a knife. So let's take a moment, let's take a beat, let's take a breath to see who aren't we reaching? Where do we need to go with events and how do we design experiences that latch onto that group of people that we need to connect with us to drive that behavior? And are we ensuring that they feel 100% actualized when they're with us? Magdalina Atanassova: I love that. Can you share some examples? Because I know our community just loves practical examples. Practical examples of, you know, small but powerful design choices that make attendees feel truly included. Devon Montgomery Pasha: You know, I had, I had a friend who was sharing recently that they were filling out a questionnaire. They were maybe even like purchasing a ticket somewhere. And in the, in the moniker, the salutation, there's Mr. And Mrs. And they had gender neutral salutations, like the greetings. And like they said for the first time, wow, I didn't have to choose Mr. And Mrs. There was an option because it was a required part of a form, but there was an option for me to choose me. I was like, wow, and that is so small, such a small thing. But that was so actionable for them. They're like, wow, you know that my community is participating in this and I'm allowed to choose me. And that was a really big thing. You know, pronouns on your name badges, would you like? Or having the ability to do that. And again, these feel very small. But belonging is about being able to show up as your best self. For those of you who maybe are confused about what belonging is or a different. I want you to think about the difference between fitting in and belonging. If you said we all wanted to fit in at the event and so we all wanted to wear what everyone was wearing and look how everyone was looking and feel sort of a part of this amalgamous whole. But fitting in generally meant changing something about your authentic self in order to fit in. Belonging is about showing up exactly who you are and being validated for being that unique unicorn, singular entity and being like, but you're still part of the whole. And that's the difference of mindset is I don't want. I want to belong just as I am, not because I'm fitting in. And it's such a powerful shift to think about still feeling that sense of welcome, of the. Of. Of that same value statement of fitting in is that you're allowed to be part of this tribe, but you're welcome just as you are. And you still have that same sense of psychological safety and an actualization. And just as you are, everything is just an alignment. And I think those are important terms to think about because it could be as simple as what is on your registration form, how people are being welcomed into the event, what are you doing during the registration line? How are you getting people to talk to one another? I know there was an event recently that had a big deal with lanyards and the lanyards were kind of self selecting people out of certain groups and it made them feel I belonged, I didn't belong. Well, I was valuable if I was this group, but not if I was that group. I know oftentimes at events as a speaker or facilitator faculty, I don't fit into a lot of certain categories and so I'm usually the other group. I'm one of a big part of the ecosystem that makes it engaging and fun and connectivity and sharing information, podcast and, and, and facilitating a panel. But I don't, I don't fit into some of those categories. And so sometimes when it's self selected it's like oh you're, you're extra, you're different. I'm like oh that doesn't feel nice that I'm not. That I'm a part of this ecosystem of success and connectivity and belonging and activation and it's like oh, thank you for being a part of this. We're all part of this ecosystem. So let's all have the same name badge, let's all have the same lanyard and if you'd like to self select or add additional color to that by sharing additional pieces of what makes you you planner, supplier, teacher, faculty, student, speaker, you know, front of house, back of house, we're all part of that. I think another great design is terminology. Disney is, I mean everyone knows Disney but one of their great things is everyone is a cast member. Everyone is a cast member. So it's a great framework to feel like you belong in this big, a massive, we're talking a massive machine. But you're either on stage or you're backstage. Where are you a part of this cast? As in you are all important. Everything you do. Even the. There was a gentleman sweeping the street but then he like, he used some water and he painted a mickey ears in front of a child. But, but his job was to, to sweep the street up. But he was part of the cast. He was part of the experience and that gave him the power to enhance others experiences while choosing to perform his role within the ecosystem. So these terminology shifts, these design shifts, these empathy markers are really small, practical examples of how very small changes can have massive, massive impact in how people interact with your experience. Magdalina Atanassova: Belonging is really used a lot. So we've all heard it. It's a buzzword currently. Do you have any Suggestions on how to make it a bit more specific and more measurable so that event planners can, you know, after the event, understand if they were successful designing when they tried to design for belonging or not. Devon Montgomery Pasha: Yeah, I think when you're designing for belonging, it should be. Belonging is a general term. It's like saying someone felt good at your event or someone felt actualized. That was a great word before. You know, we think about Maslow's pyramid, right? We think about, you know, you want to get through all of these different pieces, and at the top, you were actualized. And in your actualized state, you were the most impressionable. As in, I didn't have to worry about my psychological safety, my physical safety, my health, my hunger, my happiness. You know, belonging being a huge part of that, to get to this point of being actualized, because then I could learn what I wanted to learn. I could get the skill I wanted to get. I could get an attitude shift. But if you're worried about what's happening lower down on the pyramid, you can't actually achieve this perfect headspace. But when you want to say something, you're designing for belonging, it may be more helpful to narrow the focus and then create a metric around that particular focus. And I think that goes back to what are you trying to shift in the event? And then how can you measure that small shift? And. And I think, to be honest, Rome was not built in a day, friends. We're not going to be able to design for belonging. And. And, yeah, throw everything at it and make miles and miles of changes unless you're creating a new event, in which case all the power to you. You can take the time and measure however you want to measure. But if you're starting to turn the ship to right size for this, what metrics weren't you hitting before? Or what gave you the impression that there wasn't a sense of belonging? And if you have that data marker, what would be an increase or a shift? How would you tell? And that goes back to understanding what data is. So data is two parts, and a lot of us forget that data has two parts. So a lot of people like quantitative data. The one with the N in it, so N to me is numbers. You know, we saw an increase of attendance by 15% over five years, or we're seeing a decrease year over year with expenses growing. So our revenue is going down like numeric data. Lots of numbers and graphs and shifts. And there's a lot of people who like to crunch data, and they look at these, they look at Success in terms of these specific shifts and numbers. If we had no idea that the pandemic happened, right, if that was not written anywhere, if that wasn't in anyone's mind or story, and we just looked at numeric data for events, 2018, 2019 and 2020, and there was no qualitative story, be like, what the heck happened to the events industry in 2020? Because something clearly happened to shift numeric data in a severe fashion. But if no one knew the story, it would just look like everyone had a very failed year. Like everyone completely, except for maybe zoom and QR codes who somehow just, you know, they had a great year ever. We all used to joke that QR codes were totally on the way out and no one loved them. And all of a sudden QR codes are like, we're back. The point is that without the qualitative data that helps to tell the story of the numbers that they're not. Neither of them are whole without the other. And so when you're looking at data for your events, when you're getting assessment, when you're trying to figure out where you want to go, why do you need to make shifts? It's important to remember both pieces of the data and then try to design experiences that can shift away from that behavior towards what could be determined to be a better behavior and then figure out how to measure for that. Also keeping in mind that not all data is immediately available for belonging, especially for adding more play, for understanding, emotional data, for understanding, do people have enough choice at your events? But with control, it's not going to be great. Everyone takes the survey, as we know, everyone takes your survey and you're going to have everything in three days time and know if you're successful. But it could be, you know, you take a data set when the event ends, you take a data set in three months, you take a data set in six months, and it could be, then you're able to assess, assess over time if the behavior change you are seeking, if that shifts in the positive direction. And maybe you just have to take it at micro moments in order to build the case for change or not. So I realize a lot of this is answering sort of questions with more information than black and white. But what we're talking about is not black and white. What we're talking about is not binary. And we need to have permission to say, just because you want black and white hard data, that doesn't mean I have the ability to give it to you. I need to give you a story. I need to give you a report that has two data sets, I need there to be an understanding that just moving the event from Vegas to Timbuktu is not the great savior that's going to shift everything. It may be a combination of changes over time, and we may see and have to build over time, year over year to get to desired points. And that's conversation the industry has to have too, generally in the event sector versus maybe people in organizations who aren't in charge of events but are in charge of budgets or bottom lines or HR or purchasing or the need to be included in the conversation to understand just because the event didn't do xyz, it's not necessarily necessarily the event's fault, but it could be that it's not being deployed correctly as a tool and time needs to be taken to assess where the shift is going. You know, but if Ford or Nissan or Honda makes a car and it doesn't sell immediately in 10 days, they don't just scrap the car. They look at the car sales over time. It may take them a year or two years to decide not to make that model again and to shift and go in a different direction, but they take the time to get the data. So as event professionals and companies and corporations and not for profits and associations who use events, it's important to realize that it is that same time period. But also needing to have permission to say, this isn't working. We need to be able to change the model. Like, maybe we do need to do something different. So we need to be able to have those same rules applied, both directions. Magdalina Atanassova: Storytelling, when it comes to delivering data and the stats is so much more, it feels just nicer. Devon Montgomery Pasha: Right? Magdalina Atanassova: You get it better. It's not like you have to just look at hard numbers. But, yeah, you just accept the numbers in a different way. So if people are not doing it, I'll just ask, why? Devon Montgomery Pasha: Why? Or, you know, and again, if why doesn't get the answer, because people go like, why are you asking me that? And they get defensive. It's like, what does this, what does this tell you? If you're. What is your initial interpretation of this data? Like, oh, okay. Or how could we pivot to get more people at this event if this user experience is successful or this city really resonated with our attendees? How can we continue to grow in two years to keep this as a baseline, but then take additional steps? Like, okay, the city change worked for us. Where else were we kind of lacking? And can we add the city plus something and see what that does. You know, I remember as kids we did science experiments and it was like X plus Y that had a certain reaction. What happens if it was X +Z? Is that a reaction? You know, you got to try things, you got to report back and say, I learned something from trying different combinations. And yet in the events industry, it's, this is how we've always done it. You can't change things aren't working anymore, do the exact same thing but get different results. And some of us in the events industry, which is also in the back of my mind, while we all laugh at the stat that event professionals, it's like more stressful than, you know, cardiovascular surgery or something, it's for that reason, it's, we want different human behavior to get different results. At the same time, we're telling you you have to do more with less. Make no changes to how we've always done it, but get completely different results, but only invite the same people. Oh, and be magic. Oh, and by the way, you don't need to sleep or eat. And it's like this amazing combination of factors and we go home at night and figure out, you know, maybe we all should have gone to Hogwarts or something, because clearly we need to be wizards to figure out how to achieve that. Whereas where the real magic is, is being able to Express to our BPs, our C suites or our board of directors. If I asked you to do the same thing, you would say that's impossible, that changes are necessary. So you're allowed to change personnel, you're allowed to change company policy, you're allowed to change this. I'm not allowed to make changes, but you still have a completely different set of results I need to achieve. So one of two things need to happen. Either we make no changes and you deal with the result because that's the confines that you've put on me, or I am given the the leeway to make changes and I can keep you apprised of the why based on the data I'm using to make them. And we have an agreement about how and what to track to assess if these changes were successful. Either way, we learn something and we'll continue to at least move the ship in a different direction versus letting it stay stagnant and see what happens. Magdalina Atanassova: Speaking of this, if listeners take away just one key action to make their events more inclusive and belonging focus, what should it be? Devon Montgomery Pasha: One simple action. One simple action would be pause. And I think, I think that's the first, the first, most simple and probably the hardest Step to take, but it's to pause. Because in this world of uncertainty, budget cuts, layoffs, raising costs, supply chain costs, eggs are crazy expensive again, which is going to happen every two years. Disparity in spending, like it's, it's, there's so much uncertainty and yet the event professionals in your life are being told to go at breakneck speed because the event has to happen year over year over year. People have RFPs out till 2028, 2029, 2030. Right. Oh, and by the way, the World cup's coming in 2026, so make sure when that massive worldwide visual, multi billion dollar thing happens that there's no disruption. No, no, we're fine. We're totally fine. We're literally sitting in a room on fire saying we're totally fine. And the event professionals are not allowed to pause and say, can we wait one second? Can we pause, look at the data and look at our KPIs? Can we pause and think about where we want to go? Can we pause and ask a couple of questions to say is it essential that we do this event exactly this way next year? Can we pause and look at the data? And I think that however long that pause is, or even just getting the backbone to say, I think we need to stop for a moment and we need to have a quiet conversation, a very calm, a very non contentious, in a safe place, say we need to have a serious conversation with no ramification, which is what happens if we don't do this event? Because it may be that we need to take a pause in 2025 or 2026 and we really need to look at our data and we need to look at our budget forecast and we need to look at the economy and we need to ascertain where does our, where does our company need to go, where does this event need to go, where does the association need to go and does this serve us as it is anymore? Because if the answer is no, then don't contract the RFP for that place for the next three years. Saved the money. The best example I can give, and this was huge, and I don't think this was talked about enough, to be honest, is Paramount sent out a missive and they put it a lot of places that said that in 2025 they were not going to produce their largest events so they could pause for a year to assess who is their audience, what do they want and how can they ensure that everything that they produce is in alignment and is the perfect experience for that group. And we're not Talking about, like, you know, the annual black tie gala. We're talking about the Country Music Awards, like, we're talking about the MTV Awards. I think there was four or five on that list. Those are the two that stood out to me. If Paramount can say we're not going to do this for the sake of doing this for a year, but in 2026, we're going to have redesigned it to ensure that this is something that reflects our core user group and our core values and that that is in alignment. If Paramount can do it and take whatever hit that they're taking, we all probably can survive the hit and figure out how to then be successful. And it could be a baby pivot and it could be, we need to not do this event, but give us a year then to redesign it and come up with something that probably has a better chance of not only being successful, but, but of creating a new foundation to be successful for a more immediate future going into, you know, out of the 2000s and into the 2000s. Magdalina Atanassova: And I have to add, we can take the hit because we survived 2020, as you said. Devon Montgomery Pasha: We can survive a lot. Our part of the industry needs to start getting very loud to say it's okay to stop and pause. We're not going to have an industry left if we're the ones on the chopping block because you don't know how to use this tool effectively. It's not our fault, it's not the industry's fault. It's the driver's seat is being held by someone who doesn't understand how to drive a car. So the car manufacturers need to say, da, da, da, da. Stop it. Read the, Read the manual. We can take you places, we can take you a lot of places, but you need to learn how to use all the bells and whistles effectively and we'll get you where you want to go. Magdalina Atanassova: Was there anything we didn't mention we should before we wrap up? Devon Montgomery Pasha: Well, you know, I think there's so many fun topics and designing for belonging and all the different pieces that go with it. I know that there's so much research being done right now that's more human focused. I will say if you don't understand but want to learn more, reach out to our friends at PCMA, Storycraft Labs. Look into Neuroscience 101. Look at what the Google XI lab is doing. Look to places that are more human focused. Look to those centers. Look into value graphics. If you don't know what this means, educate yourself and say what? Don't I know. And then maybe find a way to see how to add some of that language or how to read the data in a way for you to get the full picture and just empower yourself to take some steps and then reach out, you know, reach out to me on LinkedIn, reach out to. To our friends and, you know, all of our best in class speakers and anyone in this space. Clearly we're happy to talk about this for hours. We could do episodes upon episodes and talking about this. But I think this is a great time in our industry to pause and to learn and to ask one another and to learn from one another in a way that's not competitive, as in it's collaborative. Because clearly when we can work together, we can survive the storms like this. When we're combative and we're not sharing this data, we're really not going to be able to move forward as a unit. And, you know, we all chose this industry for a reason. You know, we're all the crazy people who chose this and we love it for a reason. I know we want to see it survive for a reason. So let's share the knowledge together and see how we can raise our collective voices to ensure that we survive this next storm, but have the wherewithal to have the seats at the table to say, I think we can do this a better way. Magdalina Atanassova: Awesome. Thank you so much. Devon Montgomery Pasha: Thanks, Maggie. This was so much fun. Thank you for having me. I'm happy to be a resource to you, the team, and to anyone listening at any time. Let's have a conversation. Magdalina Atanassova: Remember to subscribe to the Convene Podcast on your favorite listening platform to stay updated with our latest episodes. We want to thank our sponsor, Visit Anaheim. Go to VisitAnaheim.org/meetings to learn more. For further industry insights from the Convene team, head over to PCMA.org/convene. My name is Maggie. Stay inspired. Keep inspiring. And until next time.