Latest / The Pluralist Podcast - with Orly Erez-Likhovski and Rabbi Josh Weinberg / Walking the Tightrope of Liberal Zionism with IPF’s Shanie Reichman
Transcript
- Orly Erez Likhovski: Welcome back to the Podcast both sides of the ocean. I'm Orly Erez-Likhovski, Executive Director of the Israel Religious Action Center. Josh Weinberg: And I'm Rabbi Josh Weinberg, Vice President for Israel and Reform Zionism for the URJ and Director of ARZA today we're going to talk about the big topic that I feel like everyone is always talking about. What about the young people? What about the young people? I love, I sit at all these tables round tables and ⁓ conference of people whose hair color tends to, on the whiter side ⁓ of spectrum. and who are always worried about what's wrong with the next generation and college campuses and what's going on. And they often talk about those people without talking to those people or involving them. And look, there are lots of different efforts that are really good and I don't wanna belittle those and those are good. But I think the question really, we're gonna, about American liberal Zionists and how do we... become more involved in making Israel the place they want it to be and not just talking about them and what's wrong with them, but involving a more holistic picture that we know that many liberal Jews outside of Israel care deeply about Israel and are increasingly, put it mildly, uncomfortable with the government and with a certain role that they can also play. And we know that, of course, there are Israelis working every day for democracy, equality, religious freedom, shared society, peace, human rights, all of those things. And how do we connect these communities and turn those shared values into meaningful partnership and ⁓ And Orly, obviously we are on this podcast because we have these shared values and we're working for these same things. Just give me an update. Like, how are you feeling? What's new? I think the big news was that finally we have a date for the Israeli elections. Yes, I'm excited. Are you? Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah. Which is the scheduled date, right? From the beginning, which is October 27th. And quite unbelievably, this government is going to conclude its term, which is very exceptional and unusual in Israel. And, this government out of all governments. So we finally have a date and we're definitely looking forward. It's going to be a very, very crazy, chaotic, ⁓ challenging period. But, important. And we're working a lot around those issues to get out of the vote, to make sure the elections are free and fair, to make sure we not allow any, you know, impairing of the integrity of the elections, and to work on what can we do after the elections to make so many things better, right? That needs to be improved. And, know, catching up. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. And Orly, just checked. I did not see your name on any of the lists running for the Knesset. Is that the case? it? ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: No way, no, no, no, that's too big for me. but, but, know, you're speaking about young people. think there was like a huge question about the vote of young people in Israel, just imagining people who have spent the last six years and during, you know, COVID challenges and then the October 7th and the war. And it's really interesting to see happening. Maybe we'll talk about it later, it is. ⁓ a very characteristic of young people in Israel to be much more right-wing and extreme than their parents. And that's very different from what's happening in other parts of the world. But I think what's really is important to stress ⁓ at the beginning of this episode is that many, many young people, both in Israel and outside of Israel, find it hard to imagine what it's like to have an Israel which is not controlled by Netanyahu, right? Because this is what people ⁓ known for many, many, years. ⁓ even imagining Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Orly Erez Likhovski: Different Israel is difficult and I think we're going to talk about this how we can imagine a different Israel and Israel which is aligned with our values Josh Weinberg: And of course I've seen, you know, Israelis have wasted no time in connecting the date of the elections, of course, with the 7th of October, you know, saying the 27th of October and, uh, you know, making those, I saw Gadi Eisenkot you know, campaign, uh, promotional ads, you know, already saying, you know, highlighting 7/10 in red. Well, you know, it's 27/10, making all those connections. And of course, um, Orly Erez Likhovski: 7. Josh Weinberg: You know, look, and the voters, youngest voters in Israel were ⁓ the beginning of high school on October 7th, which is kind of, you unbelievable to think about and to see, ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: my youngest is actually going to vote for the first time. yeah, very exciting. So yeah, it's a generation that has gone through really immense challenges that I think none of us have ever encountered. So yeah, we have a lot of work in front of Josh Weinberg: Wow. Orly Erez Likhovski: ⁓ Josh Weinberg: We have a lot of work to do. And I think that ⁓ from the Diaspora perspective, it's really important to think about this as a partnership. And I think this is really the perfect opportunity speak with our guests today. so Shanie Reichman, we are so honored that you have joined this conversation. And I'll just, I'll tee your bio, of course, that Shanie Reichman is director of strategic initiatives and the director of Israel Policy Forum's ATID and at Israel Policy Forum where she works with emerging Jewish leaders seeking to engage seriously with Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Through her work and writing, Shanie has explored how liberal Zionists can communicate more effectively, reach people who are still open to engagement, and learn from movements that have successfully translated ideology into long-term political power. Today, of course, we want to ask her what diaspora Jews are really thinking about Israel, what is preventing them from becoming more involved, and how they become they can become meaningful partners to the progressive Israelis or liberal Israelis already working to shape Israel's future. And I just want to say that, know, Shanie, we often, I don't know if it's tokenizing or we'll put you in the box of, you know, the young people's voices because you or yourself are, keep, do we consider you a young person and working with with IPF, ATID for young people, but Shanie's voice is. I think spanning that and really, you know, ⁓ a clarion call for this liberal Zionism that we, you know, identify with so much. And IPF has been great partners with on so many different initiatives and projects and ⁓ So, Shanie, welcome. It's wonderful to have you with us. Shanie: It's great to join you, Josh. A lot of these conversations take place between the two of us in our conference room year after year. So it's nice to to bring it to the public eye a little bit and to include orally. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, for sure. It's really, really great to have you with us. So maybe we can begin by you telling us a little bit about your own Zionist journey the ⁓ Israel played and still plays ⁓ in your identity ⁓ Josh Weinberg: Absolutely. Shanie: Yeah. one those American Jews who can't really separate their to Israel and Zionism from their Jewish identity, which is something I'm of as an idea. Like I think it's important to have a strong Jewish identity that's separate from Israel. And I'm one of those people who sort of doesn't. ⁓ I was raised in an Israeli American family in Queens, but I lived in my grandparents' house who spoke to me in Hebrew. I spent every summer of my life in Jerusalem. I went to modern Orthodox ⁓ Jewish day school and then really a yeshiva, like an ulpena for high school. so I'm very much in like a much more traditional ⁓ world. And I always say the reason I rely on the data to tell me what young American Jews think is because if you asked, if I didn't work in this space and I never saw the data and you asked me, what do American Jews think about Israel? ⁓ would say they love the Israeli government. They probably think that they didn't go far enough in Gaza, but overall they're content. That would be my perception because of my upbringing and my family and my worldview. so that's why it's so important to be rooted in the data, but also important to set ⁓ stage and tell the story. I'm from a very Zionist family. My ⁓ was placed on death row in Iran for the crime of Zionism under the Shah in ⁓ actually 1948, so the earlier Shah. And ⁓ like a huge part of my identity. And I ended up at Israel Policy Forum nine years ago, it was my first job out of school. Josh Weinberg: Mm. Shanie: And I've been kind of doing this work ever since. it's been, it's, it's interesting. It's interesting to watch my family evolve, also. ⁓ I come from a very mixed like Mizrachi, Ashkenazi, Orthodox, conservative. ⁓ nobody's really Reform Jews in my family, but I liked I feel very connected to the Reform movement because of my relationship with you, Josh, so many Reform rabbis who've really informed my thinking. Orly Erez Likhovski: you Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Shanie: ⁓ and now I have like Haredi I married into a family that has a lot of Haredim in it, especially including in Israel. And my husband went to Yeshiva University. So like we have we're very connected to the Orthodox community too, which has is is really quite different from sort of the rest. They're a small minority of American Jews, and they have a very different view of American Jews. So I think a lot about that divide in the community politically as well. anyway, that's I that amalgamation of identities is me. ⁓ Josh Weinberg: I mean, I think there's a word for that. Yeah, no, there's a word for that. I think we call that pluralism, to really, you know, hammer it down. No, is fascinating, Shanie. And, you know, for a later time, it's curious to see how your family and your ⁓ from growing reacts to, you know, I don't know if they see IPF as liberal or as... Shanie: Yeah. Far left. left ⁓ the answer. Josh Weinberg: Right, that's fascinating because in many streams, IPF is the sort of center. Yeah, yeah. Shanie: I I tell people that if you polled American Jews, Israel Policy Forum would be maybe the center, likely the center right, but in the Jew center right even, but within the Jewish institutions, we are clearly in the center left. and then I s think in American politics in general, in America, we're really the center. ⁓ so it really just depends who you're asking and how you're looking at it. But I identify with the center and with the sort of liberal center. Josh Weinberg: Center right, Of course. Orly Erez Likhovski: Could you say maybe a word, Shanie, about the Israel Policy Forum, just sort of a general background before we dive into IPF ATID and working specifically with young people? Shanie: Absolutely. So Israel Policy Forum is organizations in one. Half of our work is in the think tank policy analysis and research space. So have long form reports, ⁓ podcast, we try to do a lot of extensive analysis on everything connecting to Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. ⁓ then the other side of our work is in the Jewish community, trying to inform and educate and influence the discourse and leadership in the Jewish community as it relates to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, everything connected to Israel. And are sort of An unusual pairing of two different organizations, and we try to bridge the policy in the Jewish community. And everything is in service of our mission of a secure Jewish democratic Israel, Israeli-Palestinian ⁓ reconciliation by way of a two-state solution, a strong US-Israel relationship, a strong Israel diaspora relationship, and sort of all of the core pillars that I know my our friends at URJ agree with. Yeah, no, we're we're actually doing great right now. but it's Orly Erez Likhovski: Easy peasy. It's such an easy mission. You know, what can I say? Shanie: ⁓ in in in truth, I have a lot of optimism, which I can talk about. I I feel really good about the future of the relationships as long as there are people like us working on it. It's gonna require a lot of energy and investment, but I'm here to do that work and I know you all are too. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. So let's dive in and let's talk about the role of diaspora Jews, especially when Israel is part of their Jewish journey, part of their identity, whether came through family, summer camp, education, travel. And for many professionals and communal leaders, that personal connection can be seen as a wider responsibility as part of their professional lens. Orly Erez Likhovski: Trisha. Josh Weinberg: and their And I think people are questioning how to sustain their own relationship with Israel. ⁓ So how you navigate between your own connection and the responsibility of helping others navigate theirs? Shanie: I exactly articulate why, but I do think it's deeply important to have a strong Israel diaspora relationship for a lot of reasons. And so I spend almost all of my time and energy making sure that American Jews feel connected to Israel. ⁓ I I hate to leave out ⁓ all rest of the diaspora, but the truth is that together, American Jews, especially if you had Canadian Jews who we work with and Israeli Jews, you're already at over eighty percent of Jews worldwide. So it's really important. That's the strongest sort of centers of Jewish life. are connected. And in terms of in terms of how I sort of connect it to my work, which I'll say more about ATID but I try to fight back about this misconception that young American Jews are on the extremes. I think there's especially after October 7th, was on one hand a surge in Jewish engagement. A lot of people were flooding into our Jewish institutions and feeling even more connected than they ever had been. ⁓ the other hand, we saw a lot of Jews at encampments, we saw Jews wearing kafias, we saw Jews chanting River to the sea, Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Shanie: ⁓ and and we heard about it a lot, right, from parents and grandparents and rabbis who would call us and say, What do we do? kids are leaving the fold. Our kids are ⁓ enthralled by anti-Zionism now because of how horrified they are ⁓ what we see as a very just war and they might see as a genocide. And we we know that there's this kind of divide. And on the other hand, I I do see a lot of young American Jews wrapped in Israeli flags, citing ⁓ Netanyahu points, right? on on stages and at rallies and at parades and on at conferences all the time. And so I think there's this like version that American Jews and the younger under 40 are in one of those camps. And the truth is most of them are in ⁓ neither those camps. Most of them are in this what ⁓ I think it's Yehuda Kurtzer calls the troubled committed category. The people who are connected to Israel care about it. Donniel Hartman I don't want to I don't want to miss Josh Weinberg: Yeah, it's a, Donniel Hartman. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right. Shanie: ⁓ I know there's like a there's definitely some rule about giving the wrong credit to a rabbi to the wrong rabbi. So I don't want in front of a rabbi I can't ⁓ transgress that one. But ⁓ I you have kind of this strong connection to Israel to some degree that's actually pretty resilient and can withstand how they're feeling about the government. And I'm happy to give more numbers and and color to that picture. Josh Weinberg: Right, right. Yeah, yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yes. But do you see attitudes toward Israel by the young ⁓ liberal Jews comparing to the parents? mean, there is a difference, right? I mean, ⁓ I said, people experiencing Israel in the last five, six years, it's very different from how Israel looked 20 years ago. So I'm sure there is this difference, even though it's not on the extremes, but like the spectrum is different or the... ⁓ Shanie: Yeah. Orly Erez Likhovski: how people divide in the spectrum, relation to Israel is different. Shanie: Absolutely. I always try to remind the parents because I'm usually hearing from the parents and the grandparents and the synagogue boards. I spend a lot of time speaking to JCRC boards and federations. ⁓ I try to remind them that the Israel that they know and love is not the Israel that their kids are seeing. And it just isn't. I'm 30 years old, so I'm actually the older end of this cohort in some ways that goes up to 40. And know Josh, you hate to hear that. but but I but but I am and even ⁓ I Josh Weinberg: Hey, you know, we're... ⁓ Shanie: Can't really picture an Israel without Netanyahu, and I've been in this and going to Israel my whole life. And it's still really hard for me to picture. So, and I make this joke, and I'm sorry, I know it's in poor taste, but it's the truth. I sit there with my mom, my mom will say to me, Shanie, you don't, you don't realize all the times that Israel tried to advance peace, and you don't remember all the times that, and then she starts to list off all of the times in history that Israel made overtures for peace which are very alive for her, right? She was in Israel during the Oslo process. And and I'll and I'll say to her, Ima. My daughter is two years old now. Her name's Aviv, and I I always say, you know, my mom's saying that to me in 20 years, I'll say to I'll say to her, Aviv, you don't remember October 7th and what happened to the Jewish people, what happened to Israel. Like this is all once for us of defense, and she'll say, Ima, Itamar Ben Gvir's the Prime Minister of Israel. What the hell are you talking about? I know, I know, I know. Chasvashalom. I know. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. but that's kind of the disconnect that we're talking about here. I know it's I I know, like Chasvashalom. obviously, but that ⁓ Orly Erez Likhovski: Oh my god, I don't even say it, no. Josh Weinberg: God forbid, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, I have had those conversations with young people who said, you know, we were born in 1995, so we don't really remember. Right. I mean, someone said this to me literally. So we don't remember anything prior to that. And I said, well, OK, I'm sorry. You know, history didn't start the day you were born. Like I also, you know, like like I was born in 1978 and I remember a lot. I know a lot about. Shanie: It's when I was born. Point taken. Josh Weinberg: the Camp David Accords with Egypt and the 67, Six Day War and the Holocaust and the foundation of state of Israel Like, okay, like, like, how do we get people to broaden their perspective and say like, okay, let's take into something of the historical account into, know, into the frame here and then put things in slight perspective, not just what they're seeing right in front of their eyes at the current moment. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, I just I do. I do want to say, yeah, I think that in order for Jews to be to Israel, you need some kind of an emotional connection ⁓ upon which you can build a lot of criticism. if you lack this like basic connection and like you said, you know, I mean, I have read it in history books, but it's very different experience. Right. So ⁓ obviously, this is the reason why we do see different from different generations. And we, you know, we keep Shanie: Okay, but two things are important. Orly Erez Likhovski: saying to the young people, know, don't give up on us, right? We have so many good people doing the work here, but you have to build it on some kind of a foundation. And Shanie, maybe you could talk a little about whether you are building this foundation through IPF ATID Shanie: So first of all, I completely agree. And I'm someone who really believed in fostering that connection. But I will say I often speak to Israel educators. I don't do education for even college age, let alone before college. ⁓ I often speak to Israel educators and I say, when is the right time to insert the nuance and talk about Palestinians and insert the conflict? ⁓ all these educators, many of them are the to the right of me politically, say right away. As soon as you're teaching about Israel, you can teach about the conflict. We have nuance with how we teach about everything. If you're a real educator, there's no reason you have to wait to insert nuance. And I was very surprised. So I want to say my first instinct as someone who had zero nuance and barely knew Palestinians existed until college. very shocked to hear this. And I'm very, you know, I was very skeptical, but educators who I really trust, ⁓ who are really smart, say that you can insert the nuance and the love at the same time. ⁓ Which is interesting. ⁓ and and I I believe that now. So I've been con I've been sold on that idea. ⁓ I actually think young American Jews or I know that they do feel connected to Israel and they do feel close to Israel. Balance Israel's poll showed that and this was about ⁓ about two years ago now, but it was already when the war had started and was pretty deep in, that 76% of them were saying they're connected to Israel, 90% say they care about what goes on, 85% believed Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. ⁓ They all had even pretty mainstream. I mean, between 65 and 75% believe it's anti-Semitic to say Israel has no right to exist, it's important for the US to support Israel, believe that criticism of Israel often crosses the line into anti-Semitism. So pretty mainstream views. Most of them actually were saying we care about Israel, we they're not using the word love, but they're feeling a pretty deep and strong affinity for Israel. At the same time, we we know what we know. We know that the majority of them, Between 65 and percent, 70% say a range of things about Israel's actions. They to defend them, they don't want to defend them, they make it harder to be a Jew around the world, and they conflict with their values on a moral level, a political level, and a Jewish level. ⁓ so they're kind of holding that nuance every day. They're actually extremely nuanced. They're able to feel connected to Israel, and they're also able to say, that doesn't represent me. I actually hate that, but I still know it should exist. And ⁓ There's something actually incredibly amazing about that. Actually, for all my criticisms for for Israel education when I was growing up, we clearly something was done right because most people in their and 30s in our community are actually able to have a pretty resilient relationship that they can still say, I feel connected to this place despite everything that I that's happening there. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, here I think, you know, just to think about the previous topic, I think should mention the research of Professor Sivan Zakai, who from in LA, who did a study from kids ages five to 15 and talk about, when you can insert that nuance. ⁓ And I you know, she says exactly what you said, Shanie, that, you should be to talk about these things ⁓ in an age way, but to ⁓ it's not all, know, camels and falafel. And we can start doing that. And my question is, how does that play out when person's ⁓ and activism is more developed, like let's say post 18 and into someone's ⁓ and does that education inform them? And how does the events happening on the ground play out as people are just ⁓ watching they see and ⁓ through information sources that they take in. ⁓ And so maybe, you know, let's jump in and I think we'd like to hear more about IPF-ATID how that's taken shape and sort of what the big goals are and what some of the methodology is in terms of bringing younger people ⁓ may be affiliated, not, into the fold to have these, you know, intense discussions and then, you know, to do something about it. Shanie: Sure. So ATID was created nine years ago. We launched the summer that I started here at IPF. the goal was to create a space for nuanced conversations about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in Israel. If being frank, it was founded by people who are part of a lot of more mainstream Jewish institutions, many of whom are my friends and colleagues who I'm connected to, ⁓ but didn't really have ⁓ the for a variety of reasons to create that kind of thoughtful space. And so built it out of IPF. And sort of the secret sauce is that we have this think tank putting out analysis all the time. And there's all this credible content to back up the conversations that they're having. So they have discussion groups based on our policy reports. And one of the they have our speakers, right? All of our policy fellows are speakers for them regularly. So there is that connection again between the policy and the Jewish communal space. But the draw for them is that they can have these conversations across a divide. I will say I work really hard to make sure we're bringing in people. ⁓ As active lay leaders and staff from progressive anti-occupation groups and from pro-Israel, like center right and right-wing Hasbara groups. We have staff and lay leaders from organizations that span that spectrum and everyone in between. And that's extremely important because I think those are important perspectives. it's important to hear from both of those people. And then we have a lot of ATIDniks who wouldn't want to be in either of those spaces as well. Right. we we really try to partner across that spectrum, though. So making sure that over the course of a year, we're partnering with More hawkish organizations more peacenik lefty organizations is really, really critical for our work. ⁓ over the course of the year, we're going we have a ton of different events, book clubs, discussion groups, panels. A lot of it is recognizing that there isn't a really strong liberal Zionist ecosystem, unfortunately, young in young professional engagement. And so there's not a lot of places for them to go. ⁓ ⁓ the majority of young professional engagement for Jews ⁓ is donor pipelines, especially in the Israel space, which is fine and makes sense. But ⁓ we wanted to create a space that's not pay to play. And that's really for people to come and it's yeah, it's nice if you can afford it. Honestly, a disproportionate percentage of our young people are staffers at other Jewish organizations, or staffers at policy organizations, so young think tank analysts or people working in like geopolitical consulting or. Josh Weinberg: which is nice if you can afford it, right? mean, that's, you know. Shanie: On the hill. So that's been a really important part of our work because they're really shaping the conversation. We want to be bringing in people who have this like network effect and have spheres of influence that they can then bring the conversations to. So that's been a huge part of ⁓ of how we're using this. It's a pretty large network, but using it to affect change beyond our beyond the network itself. And I'll just share like what it looks like on a practical level. We function on a local, national, and international level. At a local level, we have eight chapter cities. These are all the places you can imagine, but I'll name them in case people are listening: LA, San Francisco, Toronto, Chicago, DC, New York, Boston, and Cleveland now. Those are our eight chapters that have events all the time, have regular programming. they also partner, we partner with over a hundred organizations nationally and locally, mostly Jewish, but also policy, also Israeli NGOs. Those folks are comprised of vol it's volunteer boards that are kind of run very lay-led running events all the time. So if anyone lives in any of those cities wants to be connected, let me know. On a national level, we have our Charles Bronfman Conveners Fellowship, which is really for mid senior level folks in Americans and Canadians working in, keep always for me to remember to say Canadians too, who work at Jewish and policy organizations, again, bringing that together. So It's like a JCRC directors are a pretty common demographic, are people working at Hillel, AJC, ADL, kind of the alphabet soup. Also making sure we're bringing in folks from J Street and New Israel Fund and Stand With Us and Hasbra organizations. Like again, always making sure we're bringing in that broad spectrum. ⁓ they kind of become ambassadors of our work and take our content to their communities, which often need it. So we have an elections resource out right now, 120 project, and lot of them are using it to decide to. Sort of as a basis for their newsletters and social media, their conversations in their communities. So that's at a national level. International is the part that I think is really important and might address a lot of your earlier questions. It's our Shared Values Project Fellowship. And that's a network of Israeli and American Jews. It's the only fellowship that we have that also serves Israelis. And it's it's a little bit more focused on collaboration. ⁓ ⁓ so these are people who it's a higher level, a lot of the it also the age is a little bit older. It goes into people's 40s as well. it's folks who run NGOs, run think tanks, ⁓ working as advisors, chiefs of staff to members of Knesset, city council members, and their counterparts in the United States. So it's a little bit less focused on Jewish community and much more in the policy and politics and advocacy space. And we built this because we believe there's a lot of There's lot of space for joint collaboration that isn't happening enough. I think it's happening, by the way, on the far right, it's happening all the time and very effectively the collaboration in the religious Zionist community that I'm from, I see it all the time. I definitely see it. We saw it around the judicial overhaul. We certainly see it around settlement expansion, that there's a really deep and intentional collaboration, both in the policy and NGO side. And I think like the real progressive left is doing a good job as well. I think New Israel Fund's doing a good job of it. But in that broad, more centrist space, which it captures a lot of Israelis. so we'll call it the Neftali Bennett or Neftali Bennett, if we're calling him the right wing flank of it, to Yair Golan camp. That's kind of our spectrum ideologically. I just I you need to say it because the spectrum is all wonky. That includes I that includes Eisenkot that includes right the yeah, the mainstream, the center, the left wing Zionist parties, basically. Like that's kind of the ideological spectrum in Israel. Josh Weinberg: Like the mainstream center left Zionists, yeah. Yeah. Shanie: And I would guess in the American side, ⁓ it's a little bit more what you would call like the center and center left. those folks have were not collaborating and we've realized that they weren't. ⁓ they just like didn't have an outlet for it, didn't have a space for it. So trying to bring them in and think about how they can partner and work together to build a better Israel, to inform the American Jewish community. And again, that combats the disengagement because we saw American Jews, especially with this government, that reflects basically none of their values. ⁓ they're looking at Israel, they're like, who are these people? ⁓ What is this place that I do feel connected to and do love, but I don't recognize? And what do I do with that? So bringing them to meet people who are actually making a difference on the ground, we found to be the most, the most effective way of keeping them engaged. And we're bringing in people who we hope and believe will become already our leaders, will become in bigger positions of power, hopefully in in politics and policy. ⁓ and they'll they'll bring those relationships with them and we can see that they're changing some of their work as a result already, which is incredible to see. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, so that's really sounds amazing. ⁓ my God. So many things on so many levels. I want to ask you two questions. First of all, how would you describe the audience of, of a teeth? mean, with relationship to Israel, right? I mean, you have people who have, or not. mean, obviously you said it's mostly people working in organizations. So obviously they are, they are knowledgeable and they're not like completely clueless, but they're like initial, relationship to Israel before joining your program. was sort of distant, was critical, was sort of maybe a little disengaged or people who are sort of in but not all in. So that's one question. And the second question is speaking about really ⁓ getting people, getting young, liberal American Jews to see what's going on in Israel. think, you know, this is how I see our job, right? Like IRAC's job and many other civil society organization to work for a better Israel as a bridge. of connecting a lot of critical and skeptics American Jews and, you know, including young people, you know, let's join forces in order to, you know, promote our shared values instead of sort of, you know, backing up. So I completely, you know, agree with what you're saying. And I think it's like a major issue of actually reconnecting people if they have an initial willingness and connection, right, to get involved with Israel. Shanie: Mm. Yes. So the the people coming to us are part of that three quarters of young American Jews who are already feel connected, but a lot of them are isolated. And what's not captured in the data is that a lot of people, most of them, already care. They don't need to be convinced to care about Israel. They don't need to be convinced to be connected to Israel. They need to have a space to show that and to practice that and to maintain it. And that's what doesn't exist. And so the people are finding us. Some of them say, I was really active 10 years ago when I was on a college campus. There were a lot of outlets for activism, but Israel has changed over the last 10 years. And I don't really want to be connected to maybe those organizations I was connected to. I still like them, but like it's not really for me. There's no way to get involved anyway. ⁓ so I've just been quietly doom scrolling and watching terrible things unfold in Israel. And I'm kind of alone, and maybe I have a few friends who I talk to about this who like I know are like-minded. It's the isolation that we're trying to combat. And then we bring them in because As much as I talk about how yeah. Please. Josh Weinberg: And maybe to add to that, sorry, I mean to cut you off, but like the hesitancy to put one's views out there, especially on media or social media, and then to get an avalanche of, you know, whatever, like extremism, you know, can be stifling at some point. And so the avenue ⁓ have would you agree? I mean, is that, is that what you're seeing? ⁓ Yeah. ⁓ Shanie: Absolutely. Absolutely. People are even embarrassed to travel to Israel. And one of the things that one of the ways we measure success is: first of all, I want American Jews to be the smartest people in the room when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And that doesn't mean memorizing talking points or obsessing over dates in history, means knowing what's happening in the present and having actual ideas for the future and the horizon, which is something we've also talked a lot about, a vision for the future, which is critical to keeping people engaged. Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Shanie: But my goal for them is to be knowledgeable about Israel and the conflict and also have confidence speaking to people about it. Because if you're really knowledgeable, which a lot of them come relatively knowledgeable, but they have no first of all, they're knowledgeable about the history, but not the present and not the future. Because so much of our education, and I know Orly, I agree it's important the history, but all they know is the history. All they know is this list of wars and dates without knowing what's happening in Israel today and not knowing what can happen with Israel in the future. And when I talk about how to have better conversations across divides about Israel, I actually think the key to that is thinking what do we want Israel to look like in 20 years, in 50 years, in 100 years, and having really in-depth conversations about how to get there. And that's also my job in the policy space. That's IPF's job, is to show that path and to say, these are the barriers. This is the barrier to Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. These are the barriers to two states. It's Hamas disarmament, it's PA reform, right? There's all these things on the Israeli side. There are all these things, the Palestinian side, the American side. Here's what we're gonna do about them. Here's what we can do about them if there's political will, right? In the absence of that, it's really hard to paint that path because any version of peace or reconciliation feels and is so distant that if you're not sort of laying out that path long term, you're going to get pretty depressed and defeatist, as which makes a lot of sense. But we're trying to combat that because as resilient as this relationship is, ⁓ don't know how many more years of. this radical a government ⁓ it can withstand. And so we we have to keep that energy up. Josh Weinberg: And I feel like that's actually kind of why we're doing this podcast is to talk about exactly these things and to show that we have these shared values and that, we found that there were fewer spaces that were actually bringing like minded voices from both sides of the ocean in doing that. so and that's, what our movement tries to do as well. So I think there's really, you know, potential for partnerships here. I want to Shanie: I should add, we do have quite a few, we have quite a few reform rabbis in the ATID network as well. And ⁓ I I do think you've done a really wonderful job of showing how to have and and part of it is because you have IRAC and you have Israeli counterparts and institutions to to naturally build out that partnership. So you don't have to like look to Israel and say, Wait, where are our partners? Like you know exactly who your partners are and you can connect them to them. And you're bringing people like Josh Weinberg: Yeah, please. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shanie: You Rabbi Gilad Kariv and and Orly to the states all the time. And that's a huge piece of this puzzle. Like that's how you can keep people engaged. It's really important. But the younger we start that, the better. Josh Weinberg: Yeah, absolutely. Let me test a theory with you because I it's often difficult or challenging to find consensus along these lines, broadly speaking. sometimes there are hard lines or sometimes there are blurred lines between whether it's liberal progressive people who aren't sure if they want to identify with the Z word Zionist or if they're appear to be supporting Israel or appear to be criticizing Israel if they criticize policies, all those things. And I'm sort of zooming out a bit and want to test this theory that of the divide being Israel versus the diaspora, I think the divide is very in terms of those who have liberal outlooks on life and those who have small C sort of conservative. outlooks on life. And sometimes I sit with partners and other organizations ⁓ the diaspora with whom I have absolutely nothing in common. And I feel like, you know, are mouthpieces for the government. And then I sit with Israelis who, you know, are you know, ⁓ pushing than I feel comfortable, you know. And so Shanie: ⁓ yeah. Josh Weinberg: So how do you see that divide developing and how do we build a stronger consensus those with shared values, essentially? Yeah. Yeah. But by the way, we need more disagreement. I want to argue more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK. Yeah. Shanie: So I completely agree with your assessment. I in my American community is much more to the right of my Yeah. Yeah, I know, I know. I'll try to push back on some of it, but I will say like my American community, my friends and my family in America are much to the right of me. And my like friends in Israel, not my family, my friends in Israel are are all like to the left of me or very aligned. And so Josh Weinberg: Mmm. Shanie: I really relate to that, especially now that I've been working in IPF for a decade, and most of my friends are kind of in this orbit of like working in peacemaking and working in policy, working in security. But as as people like us know, like that security and peace space is actually very, very intersecting in Israel in a way that we don't really realize in the States. In terms of the Z-word around Zionism, Israel Policy Forum has a list of organizational values. I will admit Zionism might be the first of those organizational values. Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Shanie: But it's important for me as someone trying to actually reach people to say that isn't going to be my like red line for who I'm going to meet with, because we know that 88%, according to the JFNA survey, 88% of American Jews say Israel's a right to exist as a Jewish democratic state. That's aligned with there was another study from Milwaukee like last week. There's studies all the time. that actually I just read about it last week. It came out like two years ago. But the I found out. But the point is, ⁓ American Jews subscribe to that belief in a Jewish democratic state. Those are my people. Only 37% actually call themselves Zionists. And that's not a generational divide. That's actually across almost every demographic, besides millennials who are higher than 50%. every most American Jews don't use the Z-word. Are those not I people? ⁓ me, the 88% who support a Jewish democratic state, those are my people. And I want to engage those people. It's a little like, do I need to invest time in the other 12% to varying degrees, but I'm focusing on the 88%, which is gonna include a lot of non-Zionists. As I see from the data right in front of me. It's going to include some people who are not sure, who don't feel comfortable, they don't know how to define it. And, you know, a couple of years ago, I would have said, well, we just need to explain what Zionism is. And that's important, but I'd much rather spend my time in bringing people in, building coalitions, thinking about how to make a better Israel and connecting them to the Israel that exists and not worry so much about this word that's become really co-opted. ⁓ it's been co-opted by the far right in Israel, and it's also been ⁓ like vilified and delegitimized by the far left in America. And so I don't want to say it's hopeless. I'm continuing to call myself a Zionist. That is a hill I will die on. I'm never gonna stop calling myself a Zionist. But it's a lot to ask of other people to use that label. That's become really hard to continue. But ⁓ so it's been a reframe for me the past few years once I saw the data. Josh Weinberg: Sure. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, yeah, you know. I feel about reclaiming Zionism is that it's like what we did in Israel. We are reclaiming Judaism, right? I you have a sense of what Judaism is. It's only Orthodox or also Orthodox Judaism, and it could be other kinds of Judaism. And also reclaiming Zionism to mean our values and not what the government is standing for. And obviously, I think that ⁓ distinction between the government and the people of Israel is definitely a major distinction. But my question is whether ⁓ fact that both our countries are really facing ⁓ Shanie: Mm. Orly Erez Likhovski: very similar threats to our democracy, to our values. Does this make sort of getting people more connected to Israel easier or it doesn't make a difference? Because like I feel that some people say, ⁓ you know, I'm just leaving Israel because it's not what I want for. And then I tell people, well, look at America. You have so many challenges and you're not pulling away, right? You're actually leaning in and giving a fight, right? So that's sort of, is it like something along the lines you can actually get more people to care, to support, to engage? Shanie: I think yes. And I've noticed there's some people in a couple of the fellowships I run who were so focused on combating the democratic backsliding happening in America that they kind of ignored what was happening in Israel because they were so focused on here, especially with Trump. And part of my goal was to say, look to Israelis who are doing this work, who you can partner with. And I was so proud and excited when they started to partner with those Israelis and platform them and think about what trends we can learn from Israel and how can Americans working on this share best practices. And I was really excited. And that's like one of my main goals of the Shared Values Project is to have the people working on issues like democracy and pluralism working together. So I think it's a it's a real opportunity in a way that we haven't had, especially with how American Jews feel about Trump and But again, we can't ignore the fact that there is a demographic difference politically, right? I'm talking about young American Jews who are overwhelmingly liberal. Young Israelis are overwhelmingly right wing, especially Jewish Israelis. So there is a huge gap there. And so the group of Israelis who young American Jews can c can connect to is small and and I hope not shrinking, but there's like demographically might be shrinking. And so it's it's hard. It's it's we shouldn't like take it lightly, like, ⁓ we'll just have the liberals together because there's gonna be a lot more American Jewish liberals than there are gonna be Israeli liberals. again, it doesn't mean there's not a ton we can do, and I'm you and I are are doing this all the time. Like finding our partners in Israel is so important. But we have to be clear-eyed that there's a reason why people look at Israel and say this is a traditional right-wing society, conservative society. It really is. Josh Weinberg: I wanted to build on that thinking something that you, Shanie, wrote maybe it was a few months ago about, you know, we often look the settler movement ⁓ and with ⁓ great vilification, with huge and ⁓ increase in settler which has you much more than ⁓ few lone kids running around. Like this is serious. You wrote about that we should actually take a page out of the playbook of the settler movement Explain what you meant by that and what you're thinking about in terms of you know the future and what we should what we is You know sort of broadly speaking liberals should do Shanie: Sure. so I'll give you the context around like when I had this realization, how I was thinking about it. But I should that I grew up in a community that was very, ⁓ very oppositional the disengagement from Gaza. And I remember hearing in high school when Ariel Sharon ⁓ was in a coma, I heard people talk about how it was because of the disengagement from Gaza. It was like from God, right? So that's the sort like play like that's the sort of community I was in, really. Josh Weinberg: Hmm. Shanie: I never learned a distinction between the West Bank and Israel. I should say, like, my my parents are not like that. we just didn't talk so much politics at home. But ⁓ like my my mom supported the Oslo Accords but but ⁓ broadly, like that was who I was surrounded by. ⁓ and fun, fun tidbit My only memory of learning about the Israeli Palestinian conflict was besides living in Jerusalem every summer, was of getting 12th grade. brought us all into the like. Josh Weinberg: No, no judgment, but yeah. Shanie: Conference room and we watched a video of young Palestinian children holding guns in Hamas uniforms and yelling about how they wanted to kill Jews. And I just remember that video so vividly. And that's the only thing I remember knowing about the conflict. Like I don't have a memory of anything else, which is hilarious. I won't tell you where I went to high school, but it was an it was an all-girls school. ⁓ so any anyhow, I despite there were there were a lot of political defeats for for the right wing ⁓ in Israel, and I think that's what kind of goes Josh Weinberg: Yeah. Shanie: ⁓ unnoticed is that, yes, the one hand, someone like me would say, the right wing's been in power forever, because that's how it feels to me. It's actually not the reality. ⁓ and even with right wing governments, there were a lot of anti-settlement policies. And so I wrote about Menachem Begin, who was supposed to annex the West Bank essentially. Everyone believed he would annex the West Bank, and he went and and pulled out Jewish settlements from the Sinai Peninsula ⁓ for peace with Egypt was an incredible and very prescient and smart decision on his part. ⁓ and Ariel Sharon, who of course was the father of the settlements who then pulled out settlements. ⁓ and so there were a lot of political defeats. and then never mind the Oslo Accords, which you'd think would be like the death of the settlement movement, essentially. and and despite that, it seems the settlers didn't really seem dissuaded. Like they continued to build, they continued to build. And what does that mean? It means like bring in your sleeping bags to sleep in a caravan or on the floor in a desert on a hill, right? Like And by the way, they evacuate you, you go back. They I just want to say I'm not advocating that Israelis on the left should be like breaking the law the way that that folks on the right were and are. ⁓ but the the point is like the but the determination, like they're not dissuaded. They don't care. It doesn't matter how many times you evacuate them, like they're going back. They're going to continue believing in their mission, believing that one day they're gonna rule the country. ⁓ they do. But what? Like, Josh Weinberg: But that determination, yeah. Shanie: This is the same way that in theory they should have felt during Rabin, during the disengagement from Gaza, during like the peace with Egypt. In theory, they should have felt the way someone like me who believes in a two state solution feels today. But I'm not dissuaded because they weren't either. Like, there's no reason for me to believe that the liberal vision of Israel will win. And I do believe that. And I want to embody that and I want to combat any sort of defeatism that because the demographic trends, quote unquote, look like they're heading in the opposite direction. Like I wanna combat the idea that that's an inevitability too. Orly Erez Likhovski: really connect with what you're saying. And I think that the most important thing for the Settler movement was they had their vision and they continued working for it no matter what. And just thinking of what this catastrophic government has, you know, did, you know, managed to pass for the last four years, ⁓ things were imaginary, right? A decade ago or two decades ago, and they didn't stop working for it until they had political power. So I think... ⁓ sort of, and we're now closing to the conclusion of our episode. And at the beginning, you said you're optimistic also specifically around the Palestinian-Israeli conflict and solution. And I think ⁓ of the problems for Israelis is they can't even imagine like a two-state solution or any solution whatsoever. Like it's out of the realm of possibilities, right? Both for Israelis and possibly for liberal Jews outside of Israel. ⁓ ⁓ want you to end with, you give us some hope. about that and Israel as a global country in general, what makes you hopeful? Shanie: So, first of all, a lot of the hopelessness is about demographic threats. There's a belief that because Israel is becoming more religious, it inherently means it'll become more right wing. And I don't believe that that's an inevitability. I work with Haredi feminist women ⁓ are building liberal communities within their own societies. ⁓ work with religious Zionists who are building liberal communities with their own societies just because someone is modern Orthodox or even lives in a settlement. There's a belief that because Israel is becoming more religious, ⁓ it inherently means it'll become more right wing. And I don't believe that's an inevitability. I work with Haredi feminist women ⁓ who are building liberal communities within their own societies. ⁓ I work with Zionists who are building liberal communities with their own just because someone is modern Orthodox or even lives in a settlement. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to vote for Itamar Ben Gvir And I think that there's a lot that we can do on the left to combat that. So I think that that's another piece is that the demographic ⁓ trends don't have to mean a political trend if we work to stop it. Doesn't necessarily mean that they are going to vote for Itamar Ben Gvir And I think that there's a lot that we can do on the left to combat that. So I think that that's another piece is that the demographic ⁓ trends don't have to mean a political trend if we work to stop it. ⁓ so that's one, that's point one. and then in terms of in terms of peace, ⁓ a lot of my work has been studying conflicts around the world. And as unique as the Israeli Palestinian conflict is, it's also one of many religious, inter ethnic ⁓ conflicts around the world, and many of them have been solved. And I believe that this one will be too. I don't believe it's a 3,000-year-old conflict. Yes, there's been anti-Semitism for that long. Yes, there's been, you know, conflicts in general, but it's not as though Israelis and Palestinians specifically have been fighting for that long. ⁓ it's a little more than a hundred years old. And I I see an Israel that used to be surrounded by all enemies and is now talking about making peace with Syria and Lebanon, alone the peace that has made Been maintained with Egypt and with Jordan throughout this war, ⁓ and talk of peace with Saudi Arabia. I mean, soon you're going to have the majority, like a strong majority of Arab countries that are at peace with Israel. And so the Palestinians are sort of the last remaining to make peace with in some ways. And it's going to be a lot harder and take a lot longer. But no, I don't think at all it's impossible. And of course, there's there's a lot of work to be done on the Palestinian side, and I work with partners there as well, because there's a lot that they need to be doing just as we needed to be doing in Israel and in the diaspora. ⁓ but I know that they're the right people to make this happen. We just need to believe in it, and I do. Orly Erez Likhovski: Yeah, and I completely agree and I think we have to remember are a lot of people share our values, right? I mean, you usually hear like the loudest extreme voices. There are a lot of people who wish for a different future. And history can change. We spoke about history. The pendulum is now on this side. It could definitely swing to the other side. We obviously need leaders on both sides, but things can definitely change. So, Shanie, really, thank you for everything you're doing. Thank you for this conversation. Josh Weinberg: Thanks so much, and thanks for helping us think really more clearly about what this can look like in terms of ⁓ do we engage the generation? How do we balance between you know, having you do have to know something, and engagement in meaningful ways and finding those with shared values to work with. And I ⁓ think that one the lessons that we are taking from this conversation is that the challenge is not only how to keep young diaspora Jews connected to Israel, it's how to give them these honest, practical, and values-based ways to participate in shaping its future, which includes making space for criticism ⁓ not that concern to into despair or disengagement, as said. so, you know, connecting Israelis and... keeping that work for democracy, equality, religious pluralism, peace and shared society, even beyond defending liberal Zionism as an idea, just doing it and building the relationships, institutions and the partnerships. And I hope that our partnership grows and develops. And really thank you so much for being with us today. Shanie: Thanks for inviting me. It was great to see you guys. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you. And conversations like this are exactly why we started this podcast. This podcast exists because we believe Israel can be better for all who live here and for all who care about it from afar. But that takes honest conversation and it takes partnership. So if these conversations are important to you, please share this episode and help us keep this conversation going. Josh Weinberg: And to stay up to date, subscribe on YouTube, wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you want to help us grow, make an engaging post on social media, leave a five-star review and say something like, wow, until this moment, I didn't know that I could be both in the far right or on the far left, depending on who I look for. Thank you for that conversation. So you don't have to use that verbatim, but something like that. And of course, send this to someone who you think should be part of this conversation. And if you'd like to sponsor one of these meaningful, deep conversations, You can do so through ARZA or through IRAC we thank you for listening. Orly Erez Likhovski: Thank you, bye bye.