Latest / Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash / #154 The Postpartum Cliff With Australian Birth Stories Sophie Walker

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#154 The Postpartum Cliff With Australian Birth Stories Sophie Walker · Two Doting Dads with Matty J & Ash

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Excuse me, Ashton, I don't know why I was English.
• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Then excuse me, young Chap. Yes, do you remember anything
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: from Oscar or, let's say Macy's birth?
• 0:11
  Speaker 2: I do recall fainting, okay, anything else. I recall stepping
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: over a large turd. That was April.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Beautiful memory. I know that you should.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Actually want to remember the important parts.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Well, I don't really either, but I feel like I'm
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: going to really give this third birth a red hot.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Crack well man, good thing. We have the host of
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: Australian Birth Stories, Sophie Walker, on the podcast to remind
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: us the in the outs of pregnancy, birth and of
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: course postpartum.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: Since twenty seventeen, she's had over five hundred birth stories
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: from women and from women and men all across the country.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: Which had about the big gaps in birth education, the
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: pressures on partners, and what we really need to prepare
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: for post pardon, let's get into it.
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: I am Maddie Jay.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: And I'm Ash and I'm Sophie Walker.
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: And this is birds are just going nuts right now,
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: Birds are birding. This is a podcast all about parenting.
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: It is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: And we don't give advice, but you maybe, yes, one
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: of the most intelligent guests we have ever had.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: I would say so two books. We've written one book.
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: It's not very intelligent, Ei, though we did have asked.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: There is a question that we start. We're going to
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: put you on the spot. Yes, we can edit this
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: out if you don't want to answer it. Let's go
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: way back to when you were a child. Do you
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: recall the naughtiest thing you ever did? Yes? Oh, yes, great, great, we.
• 1:59
  Speaker 3: Might have to edit this.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: You know so, we've got a very blended family. We're
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: a bit of a brady bunch. And I have a
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: step brother who returned home from staying at his mother's
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: with two pet rats. Okay, and I killed them.
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: Quick cut that out. It was an accident.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Surely, well the Peter will come for me, now, weren't they? No,
• 2:22
  Speaker 3: it was intentional. Can I just pass how old rough
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: we were six?
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: Okay? All right, okay, okay, that's good.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: With passive period where you can.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: Be persecuted for that, we've really gone off on.
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, very good.
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: I dare how the rats died.
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: Let's not let's not.
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: Good start.
• 2:44
  Speaker 3: I was like, we can't have pet rats and my
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: mum was really upset and I was like, I'll just
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: get rid of that.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. Do you remember what the punishment was
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: for that?
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: No?
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: I don't remember. I was like, yeah, do you think
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: no one knows it was me?
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Well they do now, if it makes you feel any better.
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: We have a show called the Ecker, which is like
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: the Eastern Show and Brisbane. My sister won a goldfish.
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: I don't think I killed the goldfish, but the goldfish
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: they die pretty quick, and she buried it and I
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: thought I thought it would be like a fossil. I thought,
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: how cool to look at the bones. So I dug
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: it up.
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: You guys are fucked up.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: And I got in a lot of trouble and I
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: was like, I was just inquisitive. I wanted to see
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: the bones of the fish. The worst thing I ever
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: did was befriend apossum.
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: And that's it. Didn't even kill it. The dog's next
• 3:34
  Speaker 2: door killed it and I cried, that's about it. But
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: I've never I can successfully.
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: Can I just say we had ashes. Mum On recently
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: talked about him being in prison, jail holding cell anyway,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: so he's lying befriended a possum.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: You've been in jail, so just that's the only time
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: you know that.
• 3:56
  Speaker 3: I've been in jail starving so lowly.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: From me, I think it's a really good place to start.
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: You might as well start at the bottom.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: It's an interesting next question because I didn't expect your
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: first answer.
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I don't know where that came from, but wasn't I
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: wasn't expecting to start with murder.
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: Did you always want to be a mom?
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: I feel like I need to reframe my first answer.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very good, very good.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: I did always want to be am my murderer's tendency maybe.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: A six year old child on them.
• 4:35
  Speaker 3: Okay, I did always want to be a mum, and
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: I kind of I always wanted to be a midwife, really,
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: which is weird that I didn't actually take that turn
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: after school. But yeah, I always saw myself wanting to
• 4:45
  Speaker 3: be a mum. And I was the first at any
• 4:47
  Speaker 3: family event to be like, oh, hold the baby. I'll
• 4:49
  Speaker 3: hold the baby from a really young age, so I've
• 4:50
  Speaker 3: always been into it.
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: I was the opposite.
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: I'm like, was there someone who introduced you to Midwiffree.
• 4:58
  Speaker 3: No, well, I didn't sort of study, but I've ended
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: up in this space now kind of just always gravitated
• 5:04
  Speaker 3: towards that nurturing side and wanting to take care of kids,
• 5:07
  Speaker 3: and I really look forward to the first opportunity of
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: like having my own and having my turn and doing
• 5:11
  Speaker 3: it all very maternal.
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, very cool. And how I mean your first.
• 5:17
  Speaker 3: Child was I got three boys?
• 5:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you got three boys? Again, what's the eldest names Nick?
• 5:23
  Speaker 3: And he's eleven, and then I've got Louis who's nine
• 5:26
  Speaker 3: and Otti is six.
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: Well in the parent hierarchy, you are much higher than Madam.
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: I more seasoned for sure.
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: I didn't know there was such a gap between the
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: birth of your podcast and the birth of your first child,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: but that is how the idea came about for the podcast.
• 5:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I had I had a really difficult first birth,
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: and then I had a really great second birth, and
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: I made the podcast after the second birth. So it's like,
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: it can be really wonderful and let's kind of celebrate
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: and explore that, and that's when the podcast slotted in.
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: I know you've spoken about this many times, but for
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: anyone who's not familiar with your birth story for your first,
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: can you explain when you say it wasn't a great birth? Yeah?
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: What went wrong? Yeah?
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: So I went into that berth really confident because I
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: had that vibe of like, I can do this, like
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: bring on the challenge of contractions. And my husband has
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: ADHD and he's very sporty, and he was like, it's fine,
• 6:18
  Speaker 3: we'll just cover the contractions, we'll train for it, we'll
• 6:22
  Speaker 3: be fine. When so we were both really confident, in cocky,
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: really and I was like, I don't need drugs. I'm
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: just going to do it. I actually went into I
• 6:31
  Speaker 3: think it's about forty weeks and I went in. I
• 6:32
  Speaker 3: already had an appointment scheduled, and I think I think
• 6:35
  Speaker 3: I was having contractions in the night. So I said
• 6:37
  Speaker 3: to the midwife, Oh, can you check me. I might
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: be in labor. And she checked me and she said
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: you're five centimeters. I was like, huh, I'm halfway and
• 6:44
  Speaker 3: I haven't even raised a sweat. And she said, you're
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: going to have a baby this afternoon. You better go
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: home and have a sleep. And we were like, yeah,
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: we knew we had this. Thirty six hours later, I
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: was screaming for all the drugs, so I just well,
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: they used the term failure to progress. I got stuck
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: at five cent to meet us for a really long time,
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: and we did the pacing and the coaching and the
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: tens machine that I know you guys have tested out.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: We're doing all of that, so we know exactly what
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: you've been through, exactly you have simulated that pain.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: Do they know why that happens?
• 7:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's a bit tricky to know. I got to
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: a point where they said, well, we need to put
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: the drugs in to induce you and speed up the
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: labor because it's not progressing. And it turns out that
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: my first was four point four kilos, so he was
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: pretty big.
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: I'm going to be really stupid and I'm sorry me too.
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: Go what's normal? Yeah, average is kind of like three
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: point four okay, wow, kind of Yeah, so it was
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: significantly larger. It would have known, No, they didn't, which
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: is funny because then they were worried with my other
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: two babies that they were going to be big, and
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: they they weren't. They were smaller.
• 7:49
  Speaker 2: Can I ask you about you mentioned something their failure
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: to progress? Now, how did it feel when they said that?
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: There's so many terms in the birth space and motherhood
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: space I think as well fatherhood than a negative like that.
• 8:02
  Speaker 3: There's failure to progress, even miscarriage, like you've done it wrong,
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: you're not progressing, you're not pushing, you need all these interventions,
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: which we're trying to like dispel and use more positive language.
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: Even people still use like natural birth. There's this unnatural birth,
• 8:17
  Speaker 3: and I mean every mode of birth is natural. We
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: sort of talk about cesarians as belly births rather than
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: vaginal births, but we're trying to do away with all
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: that negative connotation.
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, as soon as you said that, I was like,
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: it just has such like a negative And yeah, when
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: it's sort of out.
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: Of your control exactly and you're doing your best and
• 8:35
  Speaker 3: of course you want your baby to come out. No
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: one's like actively even with the cervix, well, you've failure
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: to progress. Incompetent cervix is another term.
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, you know.
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: Like you're just so negative.
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: That's pretty much what you.
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: Again, something you've got no physical control over. But I
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: more or less got to the point where I said,
• 8:56
  Speaker 3: can I have an epidural? And then his heart rate
• 8:59
  Speaker 3: dropped and they need to use forceps, and I had
• 9:01
  Speaker 3: a post putum hemorrhage and it all just kind of
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: went pear shape for a really crazy five minutes. My
• 9:07
  Speaker 3: mum was there and my sister was there taking photos
• 9:09
  Speaker 3: and I yelled at her put down your camera and
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: hold up my leg, and my mom ran out of
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: the room. She was just like, this is too much.
• 9:15
  Speaker 3: My little boy came out and he was blue and unresponsive,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: so that was a hectic few minutes, but he came
• 9:20
  Speaker 3: around really quickly, and then they managed me really quickly.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: But I was just like, what the hell. I was
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: not expecting that.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: Not expecting it when you're in that situation where baby
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: comes out blue in the chaos of it all, I
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: know you kind of zone out towards that point of childbirth,
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: But are you panicked? Are you Are you aware of
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: the stress and that those types of emotions.
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I actually can still recall losing the blood.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: I thought I was dying, and I just said just
• 9:51
  Speaker 3: go to johnno, just go and be with the baby
• 9:53
  Speaker 3: because I'm pretty much dying. And it was all like
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: that sounds really extreme, and it was in the time,
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: but it was really quickly. And then everyone's like No,
• 10:02
  Speaker 3: the baby's fine, We've controlled the bleeding. You're good now, like,
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: just put the baby on the breast and I was
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: like oh, and I felt terrible and I was like
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: depleted from so I lost nine hundred mills and anything
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: over a liter is considered a postpartum hemorrhage. But if
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: you think of a leader of milk, it's a lot of.
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Blood, a leader of water.
• 10:19
  Speaker 3: If you will take care, yeah, yeah, So it was
• 10:22
  Speaker 3: really stressful for everyone and my husband John. I thought
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: that the baby and me were going to die, so
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: I was traumatic for the family as well. But I
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: guess fast forward to the next berth, I still was like, Okay,
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: I want a second go at this, and I really
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: immersed myself in birth education and looking at other possibilities
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: of birth because I think I just went in going
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: I don't need drugs and it'll be fine, and they
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: said I'll have a baby in the next four hours
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: and it's easy. And so I went the next time
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: around like I'm going to absorb every single way that
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: this can unfold. So nothing catches me by surprise.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: Is there anything with the education that you had leading
• 10:55
  Speaker 1: up to the second child? Is there anything about your
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: first birth that you go, oh, I wish I knew this,
• 11:00
  Speaker 1: or I wish I'd done this differently. Yeah.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: One of the biggest shifts was instead of like going
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: contractions coming and like literally going, oh, I just got
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: to get through the next one minute, I went the
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: opposite and I was like, Okay, contraction's coming. I'm going
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: to like release the tension as much as possible and
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: literally let the body move their baby kind of move
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: down and encourage that process, the physiology of birth, and
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: work with it rather than against it. And I think
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: I had like a five hour berth with my second
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: and he was a kilo smaller, So I think that helps.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: And you've done it before and all your muscles have
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: done it before. But I really kind of worked with
• 11:38
  Speaker 3: the process instead of against it. And I think it's
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: instinctual when you feel pain to go.
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: Sea for sure. Were I'm just on the Tannes machine
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: in particular, really worked against the pain.
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: For a while because you.
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: Really grounded yourself.
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: I really ground myself, really felt like I was in
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: my natural element, and then all of a sudden, I
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: was like it was tough. I just want to jump
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: back the days and maybe the week's leading after the
• 12:04
  Speaker 2: first berth. Yeah, I mean, where was your headspace after that?
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: It was obviously the unexpected.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we were in a kind of unusual situation at
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: the time because we hadn't really planned to have a
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: baby then, and we were both living at my parents'
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: house and we were both trying to finish master's degrees,
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: so it wasn't like the best time to fall pregnant.
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: And my mum wanted to sell the family home and
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: she's like, well, we can't sell it now because you're pregnant.
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: So I came home to a pretty great situation. Bum
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: was cooking for me, and then they were like it
• 12:32
  Speaker 3: was first grandchild, So they were hovering around our bedroom
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: door in the morning, go can we hold the baby?
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: Can we hold the baby? So I could go and
• 12:37
  Speaker 3: have a shower, and we had heaps of support, really,
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: but I think, like my mum was saying, oh, I
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: think you know the fontanelle, the soft bit on the
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: top of the head. I think he's Fontanelle's going in.
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: I don't think you're feeding him enough. I think you
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: should give him boiled water. And I was like, Mum,
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: nobody does that anymore? Like that, you don't know we're
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: talking about, yeah, put something in a bottle. So there
• 12:56
  Speaker 3: was a little bit of that tension, but generally we
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: had really great support and I had midwifree group care,
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: so I had a known midwife throughout the pregnancy, the birth,
• 13:06
  Speaker 3: and the postpartum and she was coming to the home
• 13:08
  Speaker 3: and checking everything and supporting me. So I had like
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: the best possible kind of setup, and yet I still
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: felt physically really depleted. I had because I had an episiotomy.
• 13:17
  Speaker 3: I had a lot of stitches and swelling, and I
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: actually had a prolapse. So I don't know if you're
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: familiar with that. We're throwing those words around all the time.
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: Now I'm assuming a prolapse is I don't know what
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: that is, Okay, So it's when you know, so you
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: have your pelvic floor as a woman that holds all
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: the organs in at the bottom and when you're pushing,
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and the weight that the pregnancy can stretch those muscles,
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: so things can kind.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: Of fall not fall out, but there's laxity in those muscles, right,
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: So you can have in continence issues or you can
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: have just like a heaviness and things like that. So
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: you need to see a woman's health physio and get support.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: So I had those things going on, which leads to
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: like lower back pain and stuff, and still navigating feeding
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: and all the challenges for the first time mum got through,
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: but emotionally, once I got through thinking about the birth
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: and just going what the hell was that, I kind
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: of shelved that until I was pregnant again to like
• 14:08
  Speaker 3: reassess the birth process. And I really enjoyed being a
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: mum and I really had a really easy breastfeeding journey,
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: so I felt really positive about that.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: We have to give you a big round of applause.
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: I'd give you like a Donnor for the audio, because
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: since twenty seventeen, you've created an absolute behemoth of a podcast.
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: It is incredible what you've done, and we found out
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: before we started recording that you still do a lot
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: of it on your own. Yeah. I think people really
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: underestimate how much work is involved in a podcast. People
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: think you just rock up and you chat for a
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: bit and that's it. Yeah, so well done.
• 14:41
  Speaker 3: Thank you.
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: You had the birth of your second child, which was
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: opposite to your first, But then how do you make
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the connection between those situations to then go I want
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: to start a podcast.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: Well, I was listening to a lot of podcasts at
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: the time, and it was Yeah, in twenty seventeen, there
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: weren't many. It wasn't like what it is today. But
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: I was listening to heaps and work part time in
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: cancer research. That's what I was doing. And I was
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: chatting to a friend. We did a lot of like
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: envelope stuffing and things for research. She's like, you should
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: just do your own podcast, and I was like, oh,
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: who listened to mine? Just like, doesn't even matter. Just
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: like record yours and a few friends, which is what
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: I did initially. And I seriously thought, like I was
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: working and I had kids and things. I didn't think
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: it would become a business or anything like that. And
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: I literally did. So the first episode is me, the
• 15:23
  Speaker 3: next month's my sister, then a few close friends, and
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: I was like, can you Apparently with podcasts you've got
• 15:28
  Speaker 3: to keep the momentum. So tomorrow I'm coming over and
• 15:30
  Speaker 3: we'll record your birth story. And everyone likes to tell
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: their birst story, so they're like sure, but now they're like,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: can you actually take my episode down? I didn't realize
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: millions of people.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: I haven't.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: I was like No, it's I don't know.
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: I'm just.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it's funny, but I've been doing it. So
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: we've done five hundred and fifty episodes now and started
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: to share real variety of birth experiences and postpartum experiences.
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: And I think people enjoyed kind of seeing that as well.
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people like to hear that other people have gone
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: through things as well. I wasn't really aware of all
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: the different variations of and what can happen. Do you
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: think it's benefiting in terms of what people can expect
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: in every situation?
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: And I think we have, Like some people find out
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: they're pregnant and just kind of want to block their
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: ears and not hear any of it. And so we've
• 16:20
  Speaker 3: got like a starting point of his five positive birth
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: experiences to get you started. Have listened, and then hopefully
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: throughout your nine months of preparing, you'll gradually listen to
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: things that have had been a little bit more challenging.
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: Because I know people have messaged me saying, oh, thank god,
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: I listened to Claire's episode because she asked for this
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: and I asked for that. And so they're just sort
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: of putting a few extra things in their toolkits. Along
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: the way, and I think, yeah, their first hand account
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: saying that really helped.
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: Is there one that stands out as being the most
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: surprising that you've heard on the podcast?
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: One of them that was a bit more interesting was
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: a same sex couple where the other partner, who didn't
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: carry the child, was able to induce lactations, so they
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: both breastfed the baby even though one of them carried
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: the baby.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: Again, when I'm like, we don't know how many variations
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: and how what can happen? There's one never straight off
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: the bat men could.
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: Do that assuming it was two women.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you literally don't have the biology for it. And
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: every woman's like, imagine how good that would be. You're like,
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: the two am feed, you just elbow the other one fifty.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Fifty heavens, and we don't have that ability. That is
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: such an amazing I just didn't know. Sorry, and my
• 17:37
  Speaker 2: mind's a little bit blining abound that.
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: And is there any stories when you look at the
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: spectrum of those being difficult births that sticks out as
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: being one that was traumatic for you to listen to.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Yeah, quite a few of them, because we do everything
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: from like a textbook water birth with no drugs and
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: everyone that's euphuic through to stillbirth where the baby hasn't
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: survived or an infant loss. So we we really do
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: the full spectrum. And at the beginning they're titled as such,
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: and at the beginning, I'll say this episode contains the following.
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: If you don't feel ready to listen to it, then
• 18:08
  Speaker 3: stop now. So we're very respectful of that. And yet
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: those episodes still get a lot of people listening because
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: not only is it beneficial for someone to share it
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: and in a cathartic experience, but other people that have
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: been through that sort of such a unique and harrowing
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: journey want to listen to other people how they navigated it.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: And then we've also got a lot of people listening
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: who want to support friends and family, or we've also
• 18:34
  Speaker 3: got it's now certified professional development for midwives to listen
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: to the podcast as part of their training, so they
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: can listen because you need to do a certain number
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: of births before you're qualified, but to be able to
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: listen to first hand accounts on mass they can use
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: that as accreditation, which is awesome.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: Do you find that when you have people reaching out
• 18:56
  Speaker 2: that they aren't parents yet, but they're thinking about whether
• 18:59
  Speaker 2: they want to be parents, and they've listened to a
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: few stories and they've sort of built up a bit
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: of an anxiety around it.
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: Usually not anxiety. They sort of are starting to get
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: excited and they're doing all their homework and I feel
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: like they're like the gold the A plus students. They're
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: starting their head because I think depending on what model
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: of care you want and things like that, you do
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: need to know straight away to advocate for that. And
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: if they've done their research and know what they want,
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: then they're halfway there for that. So yeah, it's definitely exciting,
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: perhaps more so skewed to like Midwiffree and student duelers
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: and things listening and then they're ready at their point.
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: I feel like I'm a bit of a sponge right now.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: We are expecting our baby, our third baby, in September,
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: so exciting, and I think now more than ever, I'm
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: a lot more keen to understand all potential situations. Going
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: back to some of the stories that you've told, is
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the one that sticks with you the most.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: I kind of think my favorite, one of my favorite
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: episodes is with my sister because I was her and
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: i'd had three kids at that point, and I was
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: supporting her.
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: You're the expert.
• 20:04
  Speaker 3: Well I thought I was, but then when you're in there,
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: and I think when you've got that emotional connection. So
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: it really made me sort of see what it's like
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: to support someone. And she was saying, I don't think
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: I can do it, and I was thinking, I don't
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: think you can either. I didn't say that, and I
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: was like, oh my god, yeah, that really has to
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: come out. And when you're at that angle, it looks
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: totally different when you're looking down.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: You're doing Yeah.
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: I was like, just like squort a bit more. And
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: afterwards I was like, I don't know. I think perhaps
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: I was using all the techniques and stories. I was like,
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: I think you need to go to the toilet now,
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: now get on the ball, now get on the bed,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: and do the squad. And then her midwife was like
• 20:37
  Speaker 3: fine and let me boss her around and it went
• 20:40
  Speaker 3: really well and it was a great experience and I
• 20:42
  Speaker 3: actually caught her baby.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: Wow.
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is funny because I caught her daughter and
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: she is like a no touch person. I was like,
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: I caught you a birth and she won't give me
• 20:50
  Speaker 3: a hug.
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: Now, oh wow, out of the five hundred or so stories,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: how many of them had a fainting partner in it.
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: I think a few.
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: Yes, you're one of them.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: I've got two kids. Firstborn very when in routinely she
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: went into labor contractions, fine, same thing, sort of he
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: was spine to spine, and we sort of ended up
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: being in there for like forty eight hours before it
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: turned into an emergency sea section. I was completely fine
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: through the whole thing. I just step over a bit
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: of pooh. That was probably the hardest part, but like
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: I was sort of I felt calm and collected in
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: the moment when she needed me to be there. But
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: then with my second child, it was a planned c section,
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: like booking into a hotel in this instance, and we
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: were both like, this is so much more calm, and
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: we know what to expect. They tell us what we're doing.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: We're in scrubs, it's all happening this morning. I'm staring
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: my wife as she's sitting on the side of the
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: bed and she's getting an epidural. I can't see anything.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: I didn't see the needle bo I'm out, I remember, thankfully.
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: I was sort of crouched down, sitting holding her hands,
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: just being there in the moment with her and trying
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: to be if she was scared, trying to take on
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: some of that for her, and it all came a
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: little bit overwhelming for me, and I fainted and I
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: remember waking up with my legs in the air with
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: a flannel on my face, and the pants were off
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: as well. Yes, that's still unexplained. We'll get to the
• 22:29
  Speaker 2: bottom flap. And I'm holding a juice box and I
• 22:32
  Speaker 2: look up and my wife's laying down getting ready for
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: a plants c section, and she just goes, of course,
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: she'd make it all about you. And there's all the
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: nurses and everyone around taking photos of me flat on
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: my back with my legs up in the air, and
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: I'm not I'm excited to tell this story because I'm
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: usually not allowed to tell this story because I've told
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: it too many times and Matts, can you just cool it?
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: But today I'm yeah, yeah, so I recovered and I
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: was I'm so pleased.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Have you had any stories that have a similar situation
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: to that.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's quite common, and I think, well,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: I think the big point of difference for like the
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: birthing woman is going through all the hormones and everything,
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: and you go into this other world where it's quite
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: different for the birth support person because they're present and
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: they're seeing their child that's being born and their partner
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: go through all those things. So I think you're in
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: kind of you're almost on different planets.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was kind of like when they pull both
• 23:31
  Speaker 2: kids out and they're screaming, it's like, put it back.
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: Feel my friends have fainted. Actually, one he took a
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: peek midway through and sort of got a bit woozy
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: and he moved off towards the corner of the delivery
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: suite and he fainted, hit the corner of the wall,
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: started to slide down, but it's his knees locked out
• 23:55
  Speaker 2: and stopped him from actually hitting. And he spent the
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: whole delivery like that.
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Oh, he might have been of more use doing that. Then, Yeah,
• 24:04
  Speaker 3: out of the way.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: No, have I held it?
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was great, and the way he tells it,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: it's just great.
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: So I missed the birth.
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: He missed the whole birth, and he was in the
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: corner of the wall, and yeah, his knees stopped him
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: from sliding all the way.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if these dads would have benefited from doing
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: the course.
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: I think so, I was just thinking, you can't kind
• 24:24
  Speaker 3: of prepare for the smells of the hospital and like
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: whether you'll see the epidural needle or things like that,
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: but you can certainly prepare with big advocates of prepare
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: as a birth partner and have like quite a few
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: different options and make yourself a cheat sheet like oh
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: if she you know, because sometimes you learn oh they
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: like light touch message. I think if my husband had
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: slightly touched me able to.
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Punch sheet, I was way too sweaty for my palm.
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what does that say?
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: I feel like for the third birth, I'm going to
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: be making up for the fact that I was a
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: little bit shit it and the preparation side of things
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: for the first two, because can we get an example
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: of I just I just think I I think I
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: don't even know if I went to a birth in class.
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: I think we went to one. We had one walk
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: through with a midwife. That was it. I was away
• 25:19
  Speaker 1: for work a lot for our first trial for the birth,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: So that's my excuse. Yeah, but I just I don't know.
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: I think I think I underestimated how much I would
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: need to know because I'm like, oh, it's like if
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: you're going in for any type of operation, you're not
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: really I'm like, well, the medical staff will do all
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: the work.
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I don't have to have the degree to
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: just done.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: That's such a common idea of philosophy of so, yeah,
• 25:47
  Speaker 3: you'll have a midwife. People think the midwife will be
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: like they're like the like a doueller or like a
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: support person, and they're in and out and they've got
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: other things going on a lot of the time. So
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: people are listening. They haven't been in the birth space before.
• 25:58
  Speaker 3: You're on your own a lot of the just with
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: your partner. So you want them to feel confident. You
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: want them to know different things and like say you
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: don't want that, you want four other options of like
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: maybe you want ice chips, or maybe you want the
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: face towel, or maybe you want birth combes and things
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: like that, and have a little menu of things you
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: can offer, because otherwise you'll feel like you'll get to
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: that point. It's a bit like when you know you
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: get to an exam and you're like, shit, I really
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: should have studied the night before. This is that occasion
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: you can't get it wrong. You need to be there
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: and you need to have done it a bit of
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: the homework. But I've given you my book so you'll
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: be fine.
• 26:30
  Speaker 2: Also courses that you you provide. What do you think
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: would benefit young Matthew the most?
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think start from the beginning.
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: Well, education, you've got two births to go off, I
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: think as well, so you know loosely what she enjoyed.
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: I saw on the website there's actually before you even
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: get to childbirth, there's like an information chapter on being pregnant.
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you're not pregnant.
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: Let's well, how to support.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: Can I How can I help Laura? I want to
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: I want to be I'm trying to.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: How can we both?
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: I'm yeah, yeah, there's so many things you can do,
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: and I think you're in a unique spot with and
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: I've got three so I know what that's like. You logistically,
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: things are very different this time around because you've got
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: two other people to take care of. I think you
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: need to also just allow that space for this is
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: a whole new person coming in. It's a new baby,
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: a new birth, so you don't know how it's gonna unfold.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: But you've also got the logistics of the other two,
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: and I think people commonly kind of say with subsequent children, like, oh,
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: you'd be the one that take the other two to
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: the park or to kinder or daycare, and then you'll
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: find most people on my show have said I cried
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: and cried when the new baby came, and it was
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: less about this baby and it was more about missing
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the other two kids or the other one kid, because
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: you're suddenly having less connection with them and you actually
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: know them more than you know this baby. And I
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: remember that with my third because I was like, he
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: didn't look like the others as well. I was like,
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: I'll take care of you, Like it wasn't post part
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: of the impression, and I was like, I'll take care
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: of you, but I don't really know you how to
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: feel that connected to you, which was new for me,
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: and that took a little bit of time to get
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: to know him. But I felt more of a pull
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: to the other two children. So I think you have
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: to find that balance of don't assume that like helping
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: is taking the other two away. Maybe sometimes it's holding
• 28:20
  Speaker 3: the newborn and letting them have the kind of econdent experience.
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I did it. Yeah, that's good. Gear is great.
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: Get that is good stuff. You know, I don't even
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: think about that because I mean when you were like, yeah,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: who are you, Like that makes total sense because it's
• 28:37
  Speaker 2: the first time you have a child as well, you
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: kind of like I don't know you.
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: On our podcast and in the content that we do,
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: we're to like find what works for you and like
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: these are some of my opinions and my experience, but
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: you know, you do what works for you in your household.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: But I loved I was never like, have the husband
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: up helping with the nappy change. I'm like, that seems
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: ludicrous to me. Like sleep if you can sleep, so
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: you've got your a game for the next day. I
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: loved with my second two to just go. I slept
• 29:06
  Speaker 3: with them in a separate room like in the nursery,
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: and I was like, okay, you deal with the other
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: two kids. And I loved it at night rather than
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: have the nighttime scary. So sometimes people say, oh, the
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: night comes and you're on your own and you're feeding
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: all night and you're not going to sleep. I loved it.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: I was like, we're going to go into our little
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: nest and I just have to look after the newborn
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: and do our thing, and you'll be up for like
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: making school lunches and doing daycare run and you'll be
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: feeling fresh, and it's a nice time for them to
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: bond more and become a little bit more reliant if
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: you haven't got that dynamical.
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because you were saying you really bonded with Mali
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: after Lola was born, because you do become like sort
• 29:41
  Speaker 2: of like little besties all of a sudden. Ye, Because
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: my wife did the same thing. So with our second,
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: she slept in the master bedroom with Macy. I slept
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: on the couch classic. But then I was responsible for
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: anything Oscar needed and at worked because I was getting rest,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: Oscar was getting rest, and we could, you know, like
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: jump in and help out in the morning when and
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: we'd be refresh ready to help. And I think that's
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: a really good advice. Yeah.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I know everyone is different here, so we're not going
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: to take what you say as being the golden the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: golden rule. But your husband, when you mentioned the first birth,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: he was like, this is a sport we're going to take.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: We're going to tackle it, we're gonna get it done,
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: We're going to win. Yeah, is there anything that he
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: did or even if it was for that first birth,
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: second or third, is it anything that he did that
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: you look back and go, I'm so glad that he
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: did that.
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: I've got the counter to that. Okay, in the first
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: birth and then where he did better on the second.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: But the first birth, I said, I want the ep
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: driol now, and he said, now, remember, He's like, now,
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: remember you said when you asked for the epit drill
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: that I should offer like he was like, going off script,
• 30:50
  Speaker 3: I should offer, you know, ice chips or something, and
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: I said, get out of my face, Mum. I said,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: I'm so serious. I want that and it might take
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: a while, so order it now. And so he tried.
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: He did follow the instructions, but it was he wasn't
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: reading the rooms like sometimes.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: Says I'm going to have a nap, wake me up
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: in an hour. Oh yeah, I'm are you sure? Bomb?
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: But I think second time around he'd learnt and I'd learned,
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: and we had different scripts, and I actually didn't really
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: involve him in the second I just really went inward.
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: I hardly spoke. I just really was focusing on the
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: physiology of birth and doing it on my own.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: Did he struggle with that at all?
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Then?
• 31:30
  Speaker 3: No, I think he was better at just like, Okay,
• 31:32
  Speaker 3: if she needs me, she'll like grab me.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 31:36
  Speaker 3: And interestingly, with the third I did actually want more
• 31:39
  Speaker 3: support from him, and I was holding his hands, gripping
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: and using him as counterbalance. I didn't have birth combes
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: at that point, so I was just holding on.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: To him for squeezing for dear life. Yeah right, yeah.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: Is there any advice that you can give me when
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: we are I'm I have a level of apprehension, okay,
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: right now about a third arriving, And is there any
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: advice that you can give me on how to better
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: manage life with three little ones under one roof?
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: What's advice for managing three kids? Yeah, okay, it's hard.
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: I've got a tragic photo of when I just came
• 32:15
  Speaker 3: home from hospital and I was in that little nest
• 32:17
  Speaker 3: I'd built myself, and then my three year old at
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: the time brought a pillow and slept outside the door
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: like he was waiting for me to come work house.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: I know, it's real. Well, I think the important thing
• 32:29
  Speaker 3: is to acknowledge that it's a transition for everybody in
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: the family. So for each child, So your youngest is
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: no longer the youngest. They've become the middle man or
• 32:38
  Speaker 3: woman in your case. Yeah, the dynamic shift you suddenly
• 32:41
  Speaker 3: you've got three different people and three different wants and needs.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: And I think there's an assumption with subsequent kids, people like, oh,
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: you've had a baby before, you know what you're doing,
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: And it's like, yeah, well we know what we're doing
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: to a degree, but we've got a whole other person
• 32:54
  Speaker 3: to manage.
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: Now they're all different.
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you need more meals, you need more help with
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: like kinder then things like that, and you've got more mess.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: And I think acknowledging kind of surrendering the previous births
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: and children and being like, Okay, we've got a clean
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: slate here in theory. We're going to look at this
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: birth and this baby in a whole new light and
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: really brainstorm, like together, sit down and talk about what, well, Laura,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: what did you like in the first birth, what did
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: I do? Just get it, maybe get a bit of
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: an appraisal of your previous work, and then together just
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: talk about logistically, like I don't know if you're wanting
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: to do breastfeeding, but logistically okay, we're going to probably
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: have witching hour where my kids just generally would cry
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: from say, four till eight pm. And you're like, all right,
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: we're probably in for an unsettled period with a baby,
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: but we're going to have to feed the other kids.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: So logistically, should we have like how we're going to
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: manage that, Like just map out kind of best and
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: worst case scenarios so that you're both on the same
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: page about what you're trying to navigate.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: It changing nappies again, Matt, I know, I know, it's
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: it's it's weird.
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: How what are your girls now?
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: So Marley is about to turn by the time it
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: comes out, Maley is six and Lola is five? Okay, yeah,
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I think she will be five four.
• 34:13
  Speaker 2: February she will be.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: Sorry yeah yeah gold stuff, yes, yeah, yes, to reiterate,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: I know my children's agent.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: Also, I'm a numbers guy. Yes, there was something that
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: you did. Tap us on the shoulders, shoulder about a
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: story that happened with one of your kids. I think
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: it was Nick who had a bit of an incident
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: in a Westfield car park constipation. Can you please tell
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: us how did that happen?
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: Well, you know how they are They're like, check for
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: wet nappies. Are they consistently doing wet nappies, And we're like, yeah,
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: he's consistently doing wet nappies, but he hasn't pood for
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: ten days.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: Ten I'd be so fucking cranky.
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: I know. Yeah.
• 34:55
  Speaker 3: He was like, it's like going somewhere you don't reabsorb,
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: and they were like, it's fine for breastfed. He was
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: exclusively breastfed, and they yeah, apparently for breastfed babysit, I
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: think the upper end of the scale is ten days.
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: They'll like be ready because they'll come back. So you
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: know you so you do all the things you got
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: to do still, But then I was like, oh, he
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: started making strange noises and I videoed it, which I
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: don't think anyone needs to see, but John is like
• 35:21
  Speaker 3: why are you videoing yourself? Was like it's like so overwhelming,
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: but yeah.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: It was good for the archives.
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: First.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, Westfield car Park and just full explosion.
• 35:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, well we were going to go in and then
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: he started making noises and I was like, I think
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: it's time we went now. Now we went back into
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: the carrental like had him in the in the boot
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: and what kind of noise does a child groaning?
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Exactly like that?
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: Actually, I mean this is a gross visualization, but it
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: was pretty much like mister Whippy because you know your
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: old their legs up, you know your hold their legs
• 35:57
  Speaker 3: up to keep him out of the way, and it
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: just kept coming. But we also just lo was like
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: it needs to come out.
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, none of my kids have gone ten day?
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: How long do you reckon? You've gone?
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Now the longest. I was about to delve into a
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: story when I was twelve, but I won't now. I
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: know we never had that issue. It's so there's there's
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: so many things that happen differently for other people. Do
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: you think there's there may not be an answer to this,
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: but what do you think is the biggest misconception about childbirth?
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: Misconception? I feel like you don't know what you're going
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: to want until you're in it. So people, I mean,
• 36:42
  Speaker 3: we talk about birth plans, and I encourage people to
• 36:44
  Speaker 3: do them, but I encourage you to have three plans
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: because you don't know who you're going to be on
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: that day and you don't know what's going to happen.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: So I think a lot of people also think I'll
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: just tell you what I need. But usually, or in
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: many many cases, you go almost mute. You go inside
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: yourself when it's not a time where you can say, actually,
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: can you pass me that jump up? And people will say, oh,
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: I was thinking it, and I thought I was saying
• 37:06
  Speaker 3: like I need my chapstick, but they weren't because they
• 37:09
  Speaker 3: were so within themselves. So I think even thinking like
• 37:12
  Speaker 3: you might think you want a water birth and then
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: the thought of being in water at the time feels
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: really wrong. So being flexible and you're just being open
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: to things changing because you can definitely educate and prepare
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: yourself and listen to all the stories, but birth just
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: does its own thing in a lot of ways, and
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: you've got to be ready.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: For the You've got to have the contingency just in case.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: I can imagine, like with so many people that want
• 37:35
  Speaker 2: to be so meticulous in planned, but there's some things
• 37:38
  Speaker 2: that are just completely out of your control. Yeah, which happens.
• 37:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, which is why we say like plan for a cesarean.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: Perhaps you're going you're not wanting a cesarean, but plan
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: if you are. You want to have your playlist and
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: you want to tell the doctors not to talk about
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: golfing to like keep it a special birthing environment and
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: keep the lights limit dim if possible, and things like that. So, yeah,
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: you're ready for.
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: All of it.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna explore all potential avenues just in case.
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: Think so if any of those paths are the ones
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: that we end up going down on the day, I'll
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: have some level of information.
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and like you know how to use the tens
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: machine now, so you've got that tick just so you
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: know it goes on the back.
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: No one told us that. So we saw the comments.
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: I was like, what is the next time? Next time?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Now you postpartum, you've got a new book, Okay, tell
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: us a little bit about Yeah.
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: I think we got to the first book and we're like, oh,
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: I'm postpartum. We can't just squeeze that into a few
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: pages at the end because it's huge, as you both know.
• 38:45
  Speaker 3: And we wanted to find a really comprehensive guide to
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: sort of feeding and sleep and all the big challenges
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: and maternal mental health. And we also wanted something was
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: focused more on the woman because I feel like you
• 38:58
  Speaker 3: move into like all those different apps that are like
• 39:00
  Speaker 3: baby focused, the baby should be doing this, you should
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: be tummy time for this long and rolling at this point.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: And we wanted something that really focused on the changes
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: that the woman's going through. And it's a perfect guide
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: for a support person or partner to read to kind
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: of help understand that the physiology of a lot of
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: those processes too.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because I mean my wife suffered from postpartum depression
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: and for me it was for both of us. It
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: was such new territory. Yeah, I didn't know what to do,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: She didn't know what to do. We didn't know what
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: we were facing. I think we're really really lucky that
• 39:31
  Speaker 2: we our GP noticed some things and some other people
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: around us knows some things that really helped, and we
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: could start the research. So it's nice to know that
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: for anyone out there that's coming up to the birth
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: of their first, second, or third or whatever child, there's
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: something that can help them navigate that. Yeah, and that's
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: about mum exactly.
• 39:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And I think when you pregnant, you go to
• 39:52
  Speaker 3: all those appointments all the time, and they're measuring and
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: checking and they're checking your blood pressure and everything, and
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: literally have a baby and six weeks later they go yep,
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: to go. Do you want contraception, Like, that's pretty much
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: how it goes. And you've got to navigate breastfeeding if
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: that's what you're trying to do, or learn how to
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: do mixed feeding if you wanted to do that, or
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: move to formula you're trying to navigate. People say, don't
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: co sleep, but we know seventy to eighty percent of
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: people will co sleep at some point. We also know
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: that ninety eight percent of women want to breastfeed, and
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: by six months only fifteen percent of Australian women are
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: still breastfeeding, So they're wanting to and it drops off
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: like that because there's no support. There's no funding. So
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: it's like if you want to find a lactation consultant
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: and you're exhausted and you've got cracknipples usually isolated. Yeah,
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: and if you haven't got the funds, you can't perhaps
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: pay one hundred and fifty two hundred dollars for a
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: private LC to come. So I mean, we'd love to
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: see huge change in that area where you get more
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: medicare subsidies for support like that. But I think having
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: a base understanding of these are some of the things
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: to look out for particularly with postnatal anxiety and depression.
• 40:56
  Speaker 3: You're in such a vulnerable physical and emotional time and
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: we talk about the postpartum cliff where you're literally getting
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: all this support and then it tanks and you're supposed
• 41:05
  Speaker 3: to just navigate this on you know exactly what you are,
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: both of you when you're tired.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: And when you talk about that that drop off, when
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: does that normally take place?
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: Well, from a medical point of view, after the six
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: week check, but a day five you literally fall off
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: a cliff with your hormones. It's the biggest hormonal drop
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: you'll ever experience, so which contributes to things like postnatal
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: depression and anxiety. And were trying to normalize like when
• 41:32
  Speaker 3: to seek support and literally where to go. So we've
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: got the resources like start here, reach out to the GP,
• 41:37
  Speaker 3: get a plan, all those sorts of things, but also
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: we just normalize things like having no idea. I think
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: people talk about motherly instinct or paternal instinct, and you're
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: learning who you are as a person. You're trying to
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: navigate this new dynamic and your hormones are all over
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: the place. It's we're expecting so much of people.
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: It's like the expectation is starting a brand new job
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: and knowing how to do it perfectly and.
• 42:03
  Speaker 3: It should come naturally.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And I know for.
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: My wife April and me, I had such high expectations
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: of myself and so did she that when we weren't
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: hitting them, it was actually really bad. It was really toxic.
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: So I think like having something like this book out
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: that people can use as a tool to navigate that
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: is I wish I had that.
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: It's hard too when people have tried to perhaps feel
• 42:29
  Speaker 3: pregnant for a long time and have really wanted this
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: and then actually a lot of this is shit. Yeah,
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: I'm not sure I do want this, and normalizing that
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: you can have rage, and you can have disappointment, and
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: you can mourn your old life, and you can mourn
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: your relationship with your partner because you're hardly seeing each
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: other or you're not being as intimate perhaps as you were,
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: And we're trying to normalize all of that and also
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: help you with support to navigate it, because yeah, we're expecting,
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: and we see the shiny, kind of polished version online
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: of people when they've got it together, but you're not
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: seeing that harrowing six weeks everyone's crying, everyone's leaking.
• 43:07
  Speaker 2: You know, Yeah, is there a chapter in the book
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: that tells you to do if you get shot on?
• 43:13
  Speaker 3: I just shower or both go into the shower together.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: Some of them just can't be saved.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: I think it's obvious chatting to you why the podcast
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: has been so successful, because you've been such a valuable
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: source of information. What's going to be next?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: I'm moving into perimenopause, so I feel like that's I've
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: made products for myself basically as I'm not along like, Okay,
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: I wish I had this. I wish I had this,
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: and now I'm moving into that chapter. I'm like, oh,
• 43:39
  Speaker 3: maybe I'll have to write a book on perimenopause. But yeah,
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: I don't know. I could be toddlers and toilet training,
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: although I don't feel like I've got much advice to
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: give there. I didn't do a good job.
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: Both of my kids toilet train themselves. All of a sudden,
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: I think my wife's done it.
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: Don't feed themselves?
• 44:01
  Speaker 2: What was weird? She's obviously done an amazing Joe. I
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: try and get involved much as possible, but yeah, a
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: lot of the time they don't listen. They don't listen
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: to me them. Yeah.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah. We always end on a question where we ask
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: the guest when their children have grown up they're no
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: longer living with you, is there one thing that you
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: would want them to remember about the house they grew
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: up in.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: Well, our house is very noisy and wild. I think
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: we're Yeah, my husband's got ADHD and it's questionable whether
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: they're all on the spectrum somewhere. So it's noisy, but
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: I feel like we're a bit of a team, Like
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: I joke when we travel we're like a boy band.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: So I hope they reflect back on Like God, I
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: don't know how mum took us to all those places
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: and did all those things, and it was wild, but
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: it was fun. It's noisy and hilarious at our.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: House, Sophie, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: for not just this chat, but for all the work
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: you're doing in the space.
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, having me, We appreciate you spending some timers today
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: and helping to educate young Matt here who is expecting again,
• 44:59
  Speaker 2: and of course the we'll leave a link in our
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: show notes for that as well.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: I appreciate it.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: I can only imagine just how thrilled Laura is right now.
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: I think she should be over the moon that you're
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: putting in the work.
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: The hours, the hours goer and one hour.
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: As this episode forty five minutes roundup.
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: I always say, I think I'm almost ready to push
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: the obstetrician out the door and deliver. There's Babby myself.
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: Roll those sleeves up bigger you've got so you need
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: some glass shut.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: If you've enjoyed this episode, please feel free to subscribe, share,
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: leave a review. All you can join us on all
• 45:42
  Speaker 2: of the socials, which is a lot of two doing dads.
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: Let me blow your mind on if you put the
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: TikTok followers and the Instagram followers together, how much we
• 45:52
  Speaker 4: are six figures baby, But.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: We can't get more followers without you right now listening,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: jump on TikTok, Instagram or Facebook and join us there.
• 46:03
  Speaker 1: And if there's any other guests that you would like
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: us to interview. Maybe you're a parent, you're expecting and
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: you want more information just like me. If there's anyone
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: who you think would benefit you, benefit me, benefit people
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: of this country, let us know. Well said good, Let's
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: Get Out of Here Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: traditional custodians of country throughout Australia and the connections to land,
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: see and community.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: We pay our respects to their elders past and present
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: peoples today