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Reporting from Lebanon: How far will the Iran war expand from here? · The Morning Edition

• 0:00
  S1: We're here near the docks in Beirut. There are cranes,
• 0:04
  S1: there are shipping containers. There are trucks going past. There's
• 0:06
  S1: also a community here for displaced people in pretty makeshift shelters.
• 0:12
  S1: What happens in this situation is that you get people
• 0:14
  S1: who no longer have a home. Some of them have
• 0:17
  S1: had their homes destroyed, or they live in constant anxiety
• 0:20
  S1: about the fact that their home is standing now, but
• 0:23
  S1: they don't know whether it'll be there tomorrow. And in
• 0:26
  S1: this situation, it feels like the war can only go
• 0:29
  S1: on because the people here are so angry about what's
• 0:32
  S1: happened to them. It will not lead to peace. They
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  S1: don't think this is going to end well.
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  S2: I'm Samantha Selinger Morris, and you're listening to Morning Edition
• 0:46
  S2: from the Age and The Sydney Morning Herald. That was
• 0:49
  S2: our correspondent, David Crowe, who with photojournalist Kate Geraghty, is
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  S2: reporting from Lebanon this week after the United States and
• 0:57
  S2: Israel's war on Iran expanded to the region today. David
• 1:02
  S2: Crowe and Kate Geraghty join us from Beirut. Kate and David,
• 1:11
  S2: thank you so much for coming on the podcast. They're
• 1:13
  S2: on the ground in Lebanon.
• 1:15
  S3: Thanks for having us.
• 1:16
  S4: It's good to talk to you again.
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  S5: Kate, can you just describe for.
• 1:19
  S2: Listeners where you and David are at the moment? And also,
• 1:23
  S2: Iran is, of course, the epicenter of this new outbreak
• 1:26
  S2: of war, but you're in Lebanon. Why?
• 1:29
  S6: So currently, we are in Beirut, the capital of Lebanon,
• 1:33
  S6: and we have come to Lebanon to report on the
• 1:35
  S6: hundreds of thousands of people who have had to flee
• 1:38
  S6: their homes due to the Israeli airstrikes and also the
• 1:42
  S6: forced evacuations, as the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah has
• 1:46
  S6: escalated due to the outbreak of war in Iran. We've
• 1:50
  S6: spent today traveling south of Beirut. We traveled through several villages.
• 1:58
  S6: Some were quite empty. We also went to a the
• 2:04
  S6: aftermath of a of a strike, an Israeli strike, and
• 2:09
  S6: spent the the afternoon talking to people who have been
• 2:12
  S6: impacted by that strike.
• 2:17
  S2: And David, talk us through this. Can you tell us
• 2:19
  S2: a bit more about how Lebanon actually became part of
• 2:22
  S2: this war between Iran, the US and Israel? When did
• 2:25
  S2: this all begin?
• 2:27
  S4: It happened within days of Donald Trump and Benjamin Netanyahu
• 2:32
  S4: launching those attacks on Iran.
• 2:36
  S7: New Israeli strikes hit Beirut's southern suburbs again, two days.
• 2:41
  S8: Of heavy airstrikes in the capital, Beirut, after Hezbollah began
• 2:44
  S8: firing on Israel earlier this week in support of its patron, Iran.
• 2:49
  S9: The Beirut bombardment. Israeli fighter jets launching strikes across the
• 2:54
  S9: Lebanese capital against claimed Hezbollah targets.
• 2:58
  S4: It's like shock waves going around the world. The air
• 3:02
  S4: strikes on Iran have had a direct impact on what's
• 3:06
  S4: happening several countries away, because Hezbollah forces here have fired
• 3:11
  S4: on Israel. Israel has fired back. And you get ordinary
• 3:14
  S4: people in the south of Lebanon who are now caught
• 3:17
  S4: up in war because of what's happened. That's totally outside
• 3:21
  S4: their control. And they're the people that we've been talking
• 3:24
  S4: to who've been displaced. And that's why I think it's
• 3:28
  S4: so compelling. The impact is actually the greatest outside Iran itself,
• 3:35
  S4: in terms of the number of people being killed, the
• 3:37
  S4: number of people being wounded, and definitely the number of
• 3:40
  S4: people being displaced from their homes. It's actually a huge
• 3:44
  S4: impact here when you think that Lebanon only has a
• 3:46
  S4: population of 6 million and you've got something like 400,000,
• 3:51
  S4: probably more than 500,000 now who've been displaced from their homes.
• 3:55
  S4: And for instance, today we were looking at a house
• 4:00
  S4: that had been destroyed. It was not in an evacuation zone.
• 4:05
  S4: So we were looking and talking to the people at
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  S4: this site where, you know, it was it looked like
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  S4: it had been a lovely house and it was totally destroyed,
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  S4: but it wasn't in an area where Israel had said,
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  S4: you must evacuate. And so the the zone, I think
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  S4: if you if you can put it that way, is
• 4:25
  S4: widening by the day.
• 4:32
  S2: And so, David, tell us a bit more about that.
• 4:34
  S2: Tell us about where this once lovely home was that
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  S2: wasn't in an evacuation area. And what did the people
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  S2: around there say to you about what they're experiencing there
• 4:43
  S2: on the ground?
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  S4: Oh, there's a lot of anger when we talk to people.
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  S4: You can understand this. I find it fascinating that there
• 4:51
  S4: are so many different opinions about what's happening. You talk
• 4:53
  S4: to people with a range of backgrounds, but one common
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  S4: theme is when you get a situation like this, you
• 4:59
  S4: get people who talk about the importance of resistance because
• 5:02
  S4: they feel that they are really under attack and they
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  S4: don't say, we'll leave our homes and we'll just move
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  S4: away because there's somewhere else we can live. We talk
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  S4: to people who say, I'm not leaving my home. I
• 5:18
  S4: talked to a guy today whose parents are still in
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  S4: the south of Lebanon because they refused to leave. They've
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  S4: left before in previous conflicts, and they refused to do
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  S4: it this time because they don't enjoy not being in
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  S4: their own home. So, I mean, I think Kate would
• 5:35
  S4: have seen this also in Ukraine, people who are near
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  S4: the front, they want to stay in their communities even
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  S4: though the risk is high. You do find people like this. Um,
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  S4: and you find that it, it really fuels anger. And
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  S4: you can see why each wave of conflict in the
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  S4: Middle East only deepens the, the conditions that lead to
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  S4: the next wave of conflict.
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  S2: And tell us all, what does that actually look like?
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  S2: So when people are in areas that have been hit
• 6:03
  S2: or they're near areas that have been hit, and it's
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  S2: actually fueling their sense of resistance, like, no, we are
• 6:07
  S2: going to stay here. Are they living amongst rubble? Are
• 6:10
  S2: they living in makeshift tents? Like, what does it actually
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  S2: look like?
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  S6: Well, I mean, one thing is, is that the forced
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  S6: evacuations and, you know, the people who've had to flee,
• 6:23
  S6: they're now living on footpaths. They're living in tents. They
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  S6: are if they're lucky, they're in in a school that's
• 6:32
  S6: been converted to a shelter. The entire family is in
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  S6: one room. They are sleeping, you know, in parks. They
• 6:41
  S6: are having their one meal, hot meal brought to them through,
• 6:47
  S6: you know, the rallying of community and local NGOs. And
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  S6: you have to remember that this is winter. But then
• 6:55
  S6: when you go down outside of Beirut, there will be
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  S6: empty streets. There will be no traffic jams in other
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  S6: areas where they're trying to flee. There are people, uh,
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  S6: who are already, you know, relaying the bricks of, of a,
• 7:14
  S6: of a wall, um, of the, the house that next door.
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  S6: People were killed in it is an enduring toll that
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  S6: civilians are or, or not, they're not even asked to
• 7:29
  S6: forced upon it. They are forced to to pay. They,
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  S6: they bear the brunt of decisions by politicians and governments.
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  S10: And. Kate, this is your third.
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  S2: Time covering war in Lebanon. You were there just 18
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  S2: months ago. This was the last time Lebanon came under
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  S2: Israeli bombardment. So do you have a sense yet of
• 7:48
  S2: whether there's, I guess, anything different this time around?
• 7:52
  S6: Well, the first time I went to oh, I came
• 7:54
  S6: to Lebanon, um, was actually 20 years ago. Uh, it
• 7:58
  S6: was a 2006 conflict between Hezbollah and Israel. And then
• 8:04
  S6: 18 months ago, uh, we were here before the ceasefire agreement,
• 8:09
  S6: and now we're back again. The one thing that, uh,
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  S6: I would say is different from 20 years ago is
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  S6: that nowhere is safe in Lebanon for the civilian population,
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  S6: anywhere can be targeted. The other thing is, is that
• 8:24
  S6: other countries have air raid alerts. Um, they have air
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  S6: raid sirens. They have apps on their phones that will
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  S6: tell them when there are, you know, incoming missiles in Lebanon,
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  S6: there is no such luxury. You are given little or
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  S6: no notice. You might get a a text message or
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  S6: there might be a like a post on on social
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  S6: media by the Israeli military or government. But many times
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  S6: people have very, very little time to flee. Um, so
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  S6: that would be the one rather large, you know, difference.
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  S6: The other thing that, uh, never changes in war is
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  S6: what we've been talking about before. And that's the cost
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  S6: of war on civilians. I mean, there is over 400
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  S6: people dead. There is over a thousand injured, and that's
• 9:20
  S6: in a week. So that that never changes. But one
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  S6: thing that does remain the same is what I've always
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  S6: seen in Lebanon is the dignity of, of civilians enduring
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  S6: pretty much the unimaginable to people back home.
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  S2: And what does that look like? How does that dignity manifest?
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  S2: What are you seeing?
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  S4: Well, I guess it's the fact that they have an
• 9:47
  S4: incredible resilience in the way they deal with this situation.
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  S4: I talked to an accountant the other day who decided
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  S4: to get together with friends and set up a shelter
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  S4: for displaced people in a school that wasn't being fully used.
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  S4: And so that school became a shelter. Every classroom was
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  S4: turned into short term accommodation, and on the ground floor,
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  S4: on the concrete, they put up tents. But in the
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  S4: middle of that building, in a kind of a courtyard,
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  S4: a paved area where the kids would normally play. At lunchtime,
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  S4: all these fantastic children were playing. They were playing soccer.
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  S4: They came up to us. They loved talking to Kate.
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  S4: I mean, you know, once they saw that Kate was
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  S4: taking photographs, they were crowding around, looking at their photographs
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  S4: that Kate took. They're dealing with an incredibly difficult situation,
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  S4: but there's this spirit in the people dealing with it
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  S4: that shows how they can get through things like this.
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  S4: I spoke to a an old man who was sitting
• 10:50
  S4: and watching this and sort of laughing as he watched
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  S4: the children. He's about 70. Lovely old man. He's seen
• 10:58
  S4: civil war. He's seen conflict after conflict after conflict. And
• 11:01
  S4: still he has this kind of ability to endure it.
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  S4: And still I think, you know, enjoy those little moments
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  S4: of the day where he's seeing the community around him.
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  S4: Managed to get through it. Kate took a lovely photograph
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  S4: of him as well. I think that's what you see.
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  S4: Even in the hardest times. You see the spirit of
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  S4: people being able to get through it.
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  S2: After the break.
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  S6: So the city is somewhat under strain. To answer your question,
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  S6: I hope it doesn't continue. But, um, you know, I've
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  S6: covered three wars, uh, with the same actors involved.
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  S2: Kate, can you describe to us, I guess, what a
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  S2: day has been like there, because so many of us
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  S2: listening to you both have never thankfully been to a
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  S2: war zone before. So I guess just tell us, what
• 12:01
  S2: is it like there? Where do you sleep? Can you sleep?
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  S2: And how do you actually follow the story there? When
• 12:07
  S2: of course, there's always the threat or the reality of
• 12:10
  S2: bombs dropping attacks and the like.
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  S6: Well, every day you approach it with the knowledge that
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  S6: it will probably change from the way you've planned it.
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  S6: It could be that airstrikes have happened in a certain place,
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  S6: or you can't get to one location that you wanted
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  S6: to go to because, you know, it's been turned into
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  S6: a no go zone due to security reasons. Or the
• 12:40
  S6: person that you would want to meet, you know, has
• 12:44
  S6: had to make other plans themselves. So there's a lot
• 12:48
  S6: of uncertainty, uh, regarding sleep. I mean, Whatever wearing during
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  S6: is is absolutely minimal compared to what the civilian population
• 12:59
  S6: are dealing with. Um, but what you do here as
• 13:03
  S6: a constant is the sound of Israeli drones. They, it's
• 13:09
  S6: just like this background. Hum. Uh, that canvasses the city.
• 13:15
  S6: And then you could be woken up to the kind
• 13:20
  S6: of the echo of, of Israeli war, um, or fighter jets.
• 13:25
  S6: You might hear the thud of explosions.
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  S4: I find it to be a really strange time and
• 13:32
  S4: place because you go down a crowded street, uh, there'll
• 13:37
  S4: be cars double parked or triple parked because people are
• 13:40
  S4: sleeping in those cars because they've driven in from the
• 13:43
  S4: south of Lebanon into Beirut, parked the car, and that's
• 13:46
  S4: their accommodation. At the very same time, there's a barber
• 13:51
  S4: shop where the young blokes are getting their haircuts. As
• 13:54
  S4: if it's just another day. A few stores down, there's
• 13:58
  S4: a hardware store that's open. Then there's a carpet store
• 14:01
  S4: that's open. And if you go through the wealthier districts
• 14:04
  S4: of town, you find you can go into a store
• 14:06
  S4: and buy a Swiss watch. That is the nature of things.
• 14:10
  S4: But but that dichotomy in Beirut is jarring. It means that,
• 14:15
  S4: you know, we're not saying we're sleeping in tents. We're
• 14:18
  S4: very fortunate compared to the people who have come into
• 14:21
  S4: Beirut because they've been displaced. And so it's possible to
• 14:26
  S4: sit in a cafe and have a coffee and then
• 14:30
  S4: go for a short drive and go to a hill.
• 14:33
  S4: And from that hill, you look out over south Beirut
• 14:36
  S4: and you can see the strikes, you can see the flames,
• 14:40
  S4: you can see the black smoke rising over this neighborhood
• 14:43
  S4: in the south of the city. You go ten minutes
• 14:47
  S4: another way and you can go back to a coffee
• 14:49
  S4: while you look at the Mediterranean. So it's a very, um,
• 14:54
  S4: it's a strange time. And there is this anxiety about
• 14:58
  S4: what could happen next in this country when this chaos
• 15:02
  S4: and death has been unleashed. Um, only in the last
• 15:05
  S4: ten days or so.
• 15:07
  S2: Well, that's what I wanted to ask you, David, just
• 15:09
  S2: zooming out, what is the impact of this second front
• 15:13
  S2: of the Iran war, both in Lebanon and more widely
• 15:17
  S2: in the Middle East?
• 15:19
  S4: Well, everything changes because the Iranian regime is under such pressure.
• 15:24
  S4: There hasn't been a situation like this before, since 1979,
• 15:29
  S4: because the Islamic Republic dates from 1979. So that's 47 years.
• 15:36
  S4: And they're coming under pressure they have not seen before.
• 15:39
  S4: And that has consequences for every other part of the
• 15:43
  S4: region where there's been a group supported by the Islamic Republic. Um,
• 15:48
  S4: and that changes things in Lebanon because of Hezbollah. We
• 15:53
  S4: drove through a neighborhood today where there was a large
• 15:56
  S4: poster of the former supreme leader of Iran. There are
• 16:01
  S4: people here who saw him as a as a guiding light,
• 16:07
  S4: but they no longer have the same level of support
• 16:09
  S4: from Iran. And that changes the dynamic here. And I
• 16:12
  S4: think that's a big explanation for why Israel now sees
• 16:15
  S4: this this moment to intensify its attacks on Hezbollah and
• 16:21
  S4: this southern part of Lebanon and other parts of Lebanon
• 16:24
  S4: in a way that may be quite different. We don't
• 16:27
  S4: really know how that's going to play out, but it's
• 16:29
  S4: certainly a time where where there's a lot of anxiety
• 16:33
  S4: about how much worse it could get.
• 16:35
  S2: This is what I've been wondering. Might this conflict between
• 16:38
  S2: Israel and Lebanon continue? No matter what happens with Iran,
• 16:41
  S2: as in, might Israel and Hezbollah just continue attacking each other?
• 16:45
  S2: Even if Iran and the US were to sign a
• 16:47
  S2: ceasefire or something like that.
• 16:50
  S6: Even after the 2024 ceasefire agreement, there have been violations.
• 16:56
  S6: Communities have not been able to been able to return.
• 17:01
  S6: So the people who have been fleeing the South and
• 17:04
  S6: also Bekaa and also the southern suburbs are joining some
• 17:11
  S6: of the tens of thousands that had fled in 2024.
• 17:16
  S6: So the city is somewhat under strain. To answer your question,
• 17:22
  S6: I hope it doesn't continue. But, um, you know, I've
• 17:27
  S6: covered three wars, uh, with the same actors involved.
• 17:33
  S4: Also, we've talked to people who don't think it ever
• 17:38
  S4: really stopped. They see this as just another phase in
• 17:43
  S4: a long war. Um, and that, you know, academics could
• 17:48
  S4: argue over that, right? And politicians would argue over that.
• 17:52
  S4: But I'm just saying what people tell you when you
• 17:54
  S4: walk through a shelter for displaced people, they see it
• 17:57
  S4: as a constant war and they see their task as
• 18:00
  S4: constant resistance.
• 18:08
  S2: Well, David and Kate, we are so lucky to be
• 18:11
  S2: reporting with you. Listeners wouldn't have known this, but right
• 18:14
  S2: before we started recording, your electricity went out, such as
• 18:17
  S2: the conditions that you're in. So thank you so much,
• 18:20
  S2: both for your time.
• 18:22
  S6: Thank you.
• 18:22
  S4: Thanks for having us on.
• 18:28
  S11: Today's episode was produced by Kai Wong. Our executive producer
• 18:32
  S11: is Tammy Mills, and our podcasts are overseen by Lisa
• 18:36
  S11: Muxworthy and Tom McKendrick. If you like our show, follow
• 18:40
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• 18:42
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