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Healthcare Upside / Down: The Connection Between Clinical Education & Workforce Strategy · Becker’s Healthcare Podcast

0:00
Hello, everyone, and welcome to Healthcare Upside Down,
0:02
a podcast by Becker's Healthcare and ECG Management
0:06
Consultants,
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where we'll explore the upsides and downsides of
0:09
healthcare and the industry's most current trends.
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I'm Erica Spicer Mason. And today I'm thrilled
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to be joined by two guests who will
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walk us through the connection between clinical education
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and workforce strategy.
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I'd like to welcome Katrina Anderson, the senior
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vice president of strategic growth at Clinician Nexus
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and Jessica Wells, principal at ECG Management Consultants.
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Katrina, Jessica, welcome to the podcast. Thank you
0:33
so much for being here.
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Thank you. For having us.
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Well, it's great to have you both on
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the line today. So thank you again for
0:40
making time for this.
0:41
And I wanted to see if we could
0:43
just kick off the episode today by learning
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a little bit more about you both.
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So if you wouldn't mind, Katrina, maybe you
0:49
can kick us off. If you could just
0:51
share a little bit more about yourself and
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your work in health care, that would be
0:54
great.
0:55
Yes. Definitely. So I started my journey in
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the clinical education community about thirteen years ago.
1:02
I worked in a regional health system in
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Minnesota
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in the office of health professional education, which
1:08
was
1:09
a department responsible for the education of the
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residents, fellows, medical students, nursing, allied health students,
1:15
etcetera.
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And it was during that time that I
1:18
was exposed to perhaps
1:20
what I would say is an opportunity to
1:22
improve
1:23
how we leverage technology to tell the story
1:26
of our education activities.
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I
1:30
I had the idea for a platform. I
1:33
said, what if we were able to support
1:35
those learners sort of from application through offboarding
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and be able to really tell our story
1:40
at scale.
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And, the long and short is it's about
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to be the ten year anniversary of starting
1:45
clinician nexus,
1:47
which is,
1:49
has been a platform that really helps tell
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that story
1:52
across the those different learner
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types. And I had the opportunity to meet
1:56
actually Jessica in 2017,
1:58
whereby we were able to validate not only
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this on a state level, but at a
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national level together. And so mostly, wanna always
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say my immense gratitude to Jessica because of
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her leadership in this community.
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My life's been changed, and also the thousands
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of students and lives have been changed through
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this. So it's been a a grand adventure.
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Mhmm.
2:19
Well, Katrina, it's been great learning about this
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adventure of yours, and congratulations on the tenth
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anniversary for clinician Nexus. That's so exciting.
2:27
Thank you.
2:28
Yeah. And, Jessica, would love to learn a
2:30
little bit more about you and your work
2:31
at ECG.
2:33
Yeah. Thank you.
2:34
I've I've had the pleasure of working
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exclusively in academic health care for the last
2:39
twenty five years.
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And so predominantly,
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I've been on the operational side at health
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system roles. So hospitals,
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nonprofit,
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regional health systems, and then, where I met
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Katrina at a national for profit health system
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that worked nationally
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across The US. And then, of course,
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I had the opportunity to work on the
2:59
academic side through,
3:01
joint,
3:01
appointments through
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medical schools and and graduate medical education and
3:05
and interprofessional education
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kind of roles. And now I get the
3:09
opportunity to work in an advisory capacity with
3:12
a variety of hospitals, health systems, and academic
3:15
institutions.
3:16
But what these experiences have allowed me to
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do is to to help organizations,
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both academics and and hospitals or health systems,
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kind of bridge that. How do academic partners
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and their health systems or hospitals kind of
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work collectively
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to help with these clinical placements or find
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the right kind of sweet spot, which is
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also the opportunity to continue working with Katrina
3:37
and, kind of where this kind of sweet
3:40
spot kinda comes into play.
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Oh, it's great to learn you learn about
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you as well, Jessica,
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and your rich history in kind of the
3:48
health care academia space.
3:50
And I think, actually, you might be I
3:52
I think it'd be perfect to hear from
3:54
you on this first question because I did
3:56
wanna
3:57
take a bit of a broad look at
3:58
what's going on at hospitals and health systems.
4:01
Now over the past few years, especially,
4:03
these organizations have faced major workforce strain marked
4:07
by staffing shortages, burnout, growing competition for talent.
4:11
So I'd love to know from your point
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of view, how has that environment changed the
4:15
way leaders should think about clinical student placement
4:17
as part of their broader workforce strategies?
4:20
Yeah. That that's a really great question, especially
4:23
since I I think that we can all
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agree that it's not new for health systems
4:27
to continually
4:28
talk about the way that that shortages are
4:31
are not new. It it didn't necessarily start
4:33
with COVID, but it certainly has been accentuated,
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over the years since COVID has has occurred.
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And so leaders are starting to recognize
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that simply accommodating learners
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is not necessarily the goal. And they're shifting
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away from it being, hey. I have these
4:47
learners and I'm trying to find placements for
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them or their partners, their academic partners are
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saying, can you take more and more more
4:53
learners? They're starting to see that that having
4:56
clinical learning
4:58
opportunities is really a workforce strategy.
5:01
And what that really means is is building
5:03
best in class teaching environments.
5:05
They're trying to align up and wanting to
5:07
to have the opportunity to have clinical placements
5:09
that are intentionally aligned with their service line
5:12
groups. What are their high needs specialties? What
5:14
is that long term future
5:16
pipeline
5:17
growth that they're needing to do? Where are
5:19
their geographic
5:20
access issues and and how to prioritize
5:23
creating
5:24
pipeline
5:25
access points associated with that and and and
5:28
trying to get away from that external recruitment.
5:30
How do they start to recruit more intentionally
5:32
internally? What does that really mean? And more
5:35
importantly, how do they understand the their internal
5:39
environment? What's the right learning
5:42
mix? Do they have the right clinical volumes
5:44
associated with it? Who in their environment is
5:47
teaching? What does it mean to be a
5:49
teacher in their environment?
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What's their conversion data associated with that? How
5:53
do they anticipate
5:55
workforce shortages and inform
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their investment decisions?
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And then what's the quality and consistency
6:02
of that learning and working environment
6:04
that equates to that future hiring success,
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the engagement of their current employees?
6:10
And then how do they build that reputation
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of being
6:13
that employer of choice of their future workforce.
6:16
And those really when it when it's kinda
6:18
all can come together, becomes a strategic
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asset,
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and that's what they want to be able
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to be seen in their marketplace.
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That's where that that competition
6:28
in their market changes from being, I'm accommodating
6:31
learners to being a strategic asset.
6:34
I really appreciate the way you framed that,
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Jessica, and especially those kind of essential questions
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that you posed. I think those will be
6:40
helpful starting points for our listeners as they're
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considering this.
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And I'm just to take this a little
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bit further,
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when clinical education is treated strategically,
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as you mentioned,
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what does a strong student and preceptor experience
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really look like here, and how does that
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experience strengthen
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the longer term clinician pipeline and even the
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employer's brand?
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Yeah. Those are really hard questions. And I'll
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tell you, it's it's really hard for leaders
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because but it gets down to the really
7:09
crux of it. It's about the intentionality
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of being integrated into the culture and designed
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into the delivery of
7:16
care. And so we're we have to look
7:18
through the lens of intentionally supporting our preceptors,
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our learners, and our patients. And so I'll
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start with the preceptor side. So we know
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that from research
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that when our preceptors are supported to teach,
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that they experience lower burnout and greater professional
7:34
fulfillment, and that translates into higher engagement
7:38
and retention in the organization. So when teaching
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is valued and as part of their job
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and not an added duty,
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then then they then themselves create an environment
7:48
that learners lean into also. So it creates
7:50
this kind of mutual satisfaction
7:53
within that environment.
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At the same time, learners feel part of
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the care team that they're contributing to the
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clinical environment
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rather than feeling like they're a burden.
8:02
And that's that high quality learning environment, but
8:05
it's also a high quality working environment, and
8:08
that drives commitment to the organization.
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And so that's that increased likelihood that learners
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return as employee,
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And that it reinforces
8:17
the system's reputation as a place that invests
8:19
in its people. And that's invest in our
8:21
current staff. It invests in those in the
8:23
future.
8:24
And that's really that brand
8:26
recognition. And that's that that conversion impact, but
8:29
that's intentionally
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designed
8:31
and intentionally created in that culture.
8:34
But that culture is that representation of our
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lived experience, and that's when people walk out
8:39
the door every day and say, my I
8:41
matter. Like, what I'm doing matters.
8:44
I'm growing. I'm capable. Our patients feel it
8:46
on the day to day. And that brand
8:49
reputation
8:50
is better than any billboard. It's better than
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anything that we can do in our marketing
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and scale. It's that lived
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experience
8:58
that people will take away. That's that reputation
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that you want to be known in that
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market.
9:04
Yeah. Thanks, Jessica. I I appreciate this clear
9:07
picture of what that high quality learning environment
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looks like and how that
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kind of creates this domino effect,
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on learners and also even the organization and
9:16
its greater workforce.
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So I wanna move into talking a little
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bit more about what it takes to create
9:23
that environment. And, Katrina, I know you mentioned
9:26
in your previous role before founding clinician Nexus
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that you had this vantage point of kind
9:32
of seeing some challenges that health systems and
9:34
hospitals face
9:35
whenever they're managing,
9:37
clinical learners. So
9:39
right now, where are you seeing health systems
9:41
struggle most
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in managing clinical learners at scale, and how
9:45
should leaders begin to think about the role
9:47
of tech in addressing those challenges?
9:50
Yeah.
9:51
Great question.
9:52
I I would say
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we'll often see
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health systems use kind of or deploy three
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different assumptions
10:00
that result in what I would say is
10:02
a struggle to scale.
10:04
The first is taking a point of view
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that
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this is a university only issue, that it's
10:10
purely up to universities to create and make
10:13
and bring clinicians into the workforce. I think
10:16
Jessica said it well that this is a
10:19
an education in practice, and it really requires
10:22
that co development between
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the university and the health system. I think
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the second assumption we'll often see is that
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students of all kind are a little too
10:33
different to be managed in one place. For
10:36
example, you know, when you have a cohort
10:38
of eight nursing students who rotate within
10:41
different units of a hospital, that feels so
10:44
different than a fourth year medical student
10:47
who might engage only in a
10:50
sort of one one to one preceptor type
10:53
relationship.
10:54
And so I think there's often an assumption
10:56
that they're all very different, and they couldn't
10:58
possibly be in one place. And the third
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is, I think, assuming a software is a
11:03
strategy to solving this problem.
11:06
And when we see those three assumptions sort
11:08
of exist within a system, that often results
11:11
in a couple of things. One, the student
11:14
has way too many students, or the health
11:16
system is paying for a lot of duplicative
11:18
efforts on both their students and their their
11:21
administrative staff trying to understand who's moving about
11:24
where.
11:25
It also results in too many vendors.
11:28
We we have too many,
11:29
vendors for just nursing versus, again, medicine or
11:33
maybe the the physical therapy department. When you
11:35
start to have so many different vendors, that
11:37
leads to a ton of administrative complexity,
11:40
different datasets.
11:41
And then eventually, when it rolls up to
11:43
that executive team, they are responsible for both
11:47
telling the narrative of the community benefit they're
11:49
providing,
11:51
monitoring the quality of that incoming
11:53
pipeline.
11:54
It also makes it really difficult to figure
11:56
out how to act and maneuver and behave
11:58
a little bit differently
12:00
within that. And so I think maybe in
12:03
sort of pulling those three assumptions together, what
12:05
often will happen is,
12:08
the the vendor community will be kind of
12:10
leveraged more as a transactional requirement as well
12:13
as opposed to a partner
12:15
to really build and solve this problem. And
12:18
that's something that, again, I think was
12:20
a a big win with Jessica and has
12:22
been with other systems that we've worked with
12:25
is when the technology experts are the experts
12:27
that can kind of solve for some of
12:29
this
12:30
complexity at scale. We take that on while
12:33
the health system and the university can take
12:35
on really what matters, which is, to Jessica's
12:37
point, the quality of that experience,
12:40
the quality of the learning that goes on,
12:42
and therefore,
12:43
as well how that impacts patients. And so,
12:46
I think it's you know, a lot of
12:48
the assumptions are probably a really good place
12:50
to start when thinking about how you how
12:52
you would pivot your strategy in this space.
12:57
Yeah. Thanks, Katrina. And when you've seen,
13:00
hospitals and health systems adopt or embrace this
13:03
approach,
13:04
I am curious to know the organizational elements
13:07
that
13:08
have been in place before that tech has
13:10
gone live that can really support
13:12
this shift. Any best practices that you have
13:14
there?
13:15
Yes. Definitely.
13:17
I think,
13:18
we'll often see this starts with the c
13:21
suite as
13:22
a priority for the organization.
13:25
I think someone wisely said if it's if
13:27
it's not owned at the c suite, it's
13:28
not really a strategy in some capacity.
13:32
And so with that comes setting a vision
13:34
for academic
13:37
communities, and it comes with setting a tone
13:39
for
13:40
how the workforce will be treated. And then,
13:42
of course, there's a whole array of things
13:44
that follow that organizational design, maybe some policies.
13:47
There's roles and responsibilities
13:49
that come as a result of who's gonna
13:51
take on which students. What's the workflow going
13:53
to look like? And then only later after
13:55
that are we gonna talk about how you
13:57
would actually then implement a technology solution.
14:00
And, again, Jessica and I were,
14:03
in a position where we were able to
14:05
kind of go slow to go fast and
14:07
focused really on how do you think about
14:10
what that leadership
14:11
narrative is, what KPIs matter, what are we
14:14
measuring. And then we go and build and
14:16
structure the platform so that the the usability
14:20
is there for the end users because that's
14:22
of utmost importance as well because they're the
14:24
ones creating the very high quality and trustworthy
14:27
data that then kind of rolls back up
14:29
to that report. And so we're kind of
14:31
in that world. I think all of us
14:32
hear that most days that, it's an and
14:34
universe, not an or universe. And so, again,
14:37
I think we think of,
14:39
leaders being really engaged,
14:41
really reportable clear metrics, and a really good
14:44
user experience are the kinda key there.
14:47
So helpful.
14:48
And, Jessica, I know you've collaborated closely with
14:51
Katrina for some years now. So,
14:54
from your point of view, what do you
14:56
see tends to change once these some of
14:58
these challenges that we've discussed are addressed more
15:00
intentionally with this kind of integrated and and
15:03
technology based approach to learning?
15:05
You know, that's a it's a really great
15:07
I I think once once technology
15:10
really becomes kind of that that platform that
15:13
we can start to see when we we
15:15
see it then as an enabler. Right? So
15:17
technology for the sake of technology
15:19
isn't
15:20
the value. Right? It it becomes the ability
15:22
to make really informed decisions. We get the
15:25
opportunity then to say, how can we do
15:28
better? How do we partner more intentionally? How
15:30
do we identify
15:32
best practices? How do we ensure that we're
15:34
supporting
15:35
our preceptors? How are we,
15:38
ensuring that we're having best in class working
15:40
and learning environments? How do we know that
15:43
we have the right learner at the right
15:45
time
15:46
and having
15:47
bedside ready or we're producing folks who are
15:50
really wanna stay within our communities to practice,
15:53
that we're encouraging that professional identity of our
15:55
learners, that we know that they're ready to
15:58
be in practice when they graduate, that they
16:00
have these the outcomes that we're looking for,
16:00
that we're building the pipeline of the future.
16:00
So it gives
16:01
pipeline
16:02
of
16:03
the
16:03
future.
16:04
So it gives us that that ability to
16:06
make those decisions from an informed
16:08
position, but we're also creating that experience,
16:12
that our learners want, that our preceptors want,
16:15
but that our our leaders have the ability
16:17
to know that we're doing this, that that
16:19
we have that rep replication, but that we
16:21
we can, with competence, make these decisions that
16:24
in in the past we haven't been able
16:26
to do. But I think even more importantly,
16:29
it allows these these partnerships that have been
16:31
historically there for years upon years upon years
16:34
to be able to say, we know that
16:36
we're making the right decisions as partners
16:38
in this journey together to create,
16:41
what we know we need, which is a
16:42
strong workforce of the future.
16:44
Well, thank you, Jessica. And I I wanna
16:47
thank you both for everything that you've shared
16:49
so far on
16:50
clinical education and and how this ties into
16:53
workforce strategy.
16:54
It's such an important element of building the
16:57
future clinical workforce as you've both noted.
17:00
But before we, you know, conclude our time
17:02
together today, I wanted to make sure there
17:04
was anything
17:05
perhaps that we didn't touch on and to
17:06
give you both space to to mention any
17:09
parting advice or even common pitfalls that you
17:12
might highlight for leaders as they think about
17:14
the future of clinical education,
17:16
workforce planning, and academic partnerships?
17:19
Yeah. I can I can start?
17:22
I think
17:23
one of the things that, we've had the
17:25
privilege of seeing
17:27
health systems
17:28
and states
17:29
and regional communities
17:31
solve this problem.
17:33
And I think one of the things that
17:35
is the the key to success
17:37
is going about it together and as a
17:39
community
17:40
with the student experience at the center of
17:43
that. We know that in practice,
17:45
health systems are competing, but in education,
17:48
we're all competing to have the best quality
17:51
care available for ourselves and those that we
17:54
love. And so I think
17:56
that shared mission allows for there to be
17:59
multiyear gains for those community
18:01
goals, the workforce, those systems ultimately
18:05
benefit.
18:05
And, again, I think, most importantly,
18:08
everything that we're doing in this space is
18:09
for patients
18:11
and the quality of care that they're going
18:12
to receive one day. So I think keeping
18:15
that bigger picture North
18:17
Star in in mind, helps to get through
18:20
some of the harder parts,
18:21
that inevitably pop up when you're navigating
18:24
getting on the same page.
18:26
Keeping that North Star in mind, such an
18:28
important reminder. Thanks, Katrina.
18:30
Yeah. And, Jessica, what would you add?
18:33
Yeah. I I you know, Katrina, I think
18:35
you're you that's spot on. I mean, the
18:38
the opportunities in front of us
18:40
is truly the the ability to align
18:44
around how to do this better together. And
18:47
so I I think you you summed it
18:48
up exactly. How do we get started with
18:51
creating those
18:53
high quality
18:54
and appropriate learning environments? It's really hard to
18:57
understand
18:58
what's the right learner, the right time, and
19:01
knowing that we have operational realities. That's the
19:04
other thing that I think we we certainly
19:06
wanna wanna ensure that the ability to to
19:09
make sure that that we understand
19:12
we have the the pressure points that are
19:13
always going to be here in the the
19:15
health care space. The clinical
19:18
environments are not gonna get any easier in
19:20
these days. So how do we ensure that
19:21
we understand
19:23
how many learners are the right learners? What
19:25
does it mean to be a preceptor in
19:26
the environment? And what's that right sweet spot?
19:29
How many learners are at the right time
19:30
at the right space and get the right
19:32
experiences at the right time? We can do
19:34
that together,
19:35
and that's that's kinda getting that started at
19:37
the right space because that's creating the the
19:40
the best the best in class learning environments
19:42
at the same time. So that's an opportunity
19:44
for us to to collectively go at this
19:46
together.
19:48
Well, Jessica, Katrina, it's been such a pleasure
19:50
talking to you both, and your passion for
19:53
this work really came through so clearly throughout
19:56
our conversation today. So I just wanna thank
19:57
you for your time and for sharing that
19:59
with listeners
20:00
and for all of the great insights that
20:02
you're leaving them with. Thank you for having
20:04
us. Yes. Thank you.
20:06
Yeah. And we also wanna thank our podcast
20:08
sponsor for today, ECG Management Consultants.
20:12
Listeners, be sure to tune into more podcasts
20:14
from Becker's Healthcare by visiting our podcast page
20:17
at beckershospitalreview.com.