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Organizational Agility and the ROR: Return On Relationships with Neha Chatwani · Authentic Living

• 0:01
  Welcome to authentic living with Roxanne, a place where we have as conversations about
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  things that really matter in our lives.
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  And now here's your host, Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Everyone, it's Roxanne Derhodge.
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  Thanks for tuning in again for authentic living with Roxanne.
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  So today, I have a colleague Neha Chutwani has who has graciously given us some time, to come
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  and spend with us.
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  So Neha, thanks for coming, to chat with us today.
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  It's a great pleasure to be here, Roxanne.
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  Thanks so much for having me.
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  So Neha is, an organizational psychologist, and I'm I'm fascinated, with the kind of work that
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  she does and she her title, I would say, which I love and which I'd like to chat a little bit
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  more, is Workplace Atali Atelier.
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  She works, on generally with startups and nonprofits.
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  And she's author of organizational agility, which I, again, like chat a little bit more
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  about that book.
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  She does some some guests, editing with, the Peter Drucker global forum and also with
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  Forbes.
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  So quite a quite a fascinating, cross section of things that you do, Neha.
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  So So tell us about this term workplace atelier.
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  What where did you come up?
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  First, how creative is that?
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  I love it.
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  Thank you so much.
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  Yeah.
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  That's a really good question.
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  I don't think I've ever really been asked that question.
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  And, it begs for a fascinating story, which I'm going to share with you.
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  And this is, I think, a first time.
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  So many many years ago.
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  No.
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  Let me start even before that.
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  So when I chose to study psychology, I actually wanted to practice psychology as a
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  psychologist.
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  And I did a lot of, practical work also in psychiatry at the time.
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  And I realized that I didn't think I was strong enough to work with cases of abnormal
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  sicknesses.
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  And I wanted to work with regular folk because I thought, well, regular people need support
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  too.
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  And I was already at that time, and this is quite a while ago.
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  So 20 plus years ago, focusing on industrial and organizational psychology, which I think in
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  Europe was still rather underdeveloped was definitely getting getting more traction in the
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  Anglo Saxon world.
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  And I thought to myself, well, you know, regular folk who work also need to feel enabled
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  and supported.
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  And they have their ups and downs, and it's good for them to have that kind of mental
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  health sparring partner.
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  But there wasn't really place for that.
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  And, I ended up going into a career in HR.
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  And while I was quite successful in what I was doing, I kept remembering that my real
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  aspiration was to work as a self employed independent person and not in an organization.
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  And one of the things I did to, reconnect with my roots in psychology was I studied studying
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  dance therapy.
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  And one of the sessions in dance therapy, we were asked to draw a picture of our our not
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  favorite, but our desirable visionary workplace.
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  And I drew a picture of a beautiful little house by the sea.
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  Sun was shining.
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  There were palm trees.
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  I mean, I'm not much of an artist, so this was very much like a a children's drawing, right,
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  with crayons and the rest of that And several years later, I actually decided for myself that
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  I was going to take that leap and become an independent person with my own business.
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  And my own best boss, I think.
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  And I was looking for a venue, and I actually ran into a venue It wasn't a hut by the sea
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  because Austria where I'm based doesn't have a sea, but it was a very cute quite little, in
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  the middle of a courtyard of an old building.
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  And it resonated with me in the same way that that picture that I had drawn for myself it
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  with me.
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  So the, you know, and I never thought that I would have an opportunity to purchase that
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  place, and I actually did.
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  I purchased it within a weekend, right?
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  Because that was such a strong pull.
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  And when I was there, I kept thinking You know, the workplace is where we spend most of our
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  lives.
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  Right?
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  We spend so much time working.
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  It doesn't matter how you define the workplace.
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  And I think people innate innately have the need be creative and express themselves and
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  deliver outcomes to use the management language.
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  We are creative beings.
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  We like to work.
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  We need to work.
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  I don't think we're lazy.
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  We're learning beings.
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  Right?
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  And I thought to myself, it's a a creative process that often gets suppressed in a
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  conventional employment or definition of work.
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  Why can't I gauge into that idea and energy and passion and call the services that I Hope,
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  enable and support people to be the best they can be at their workplace, the workplace,
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  Italy.
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  That creative space that we all have within us to learn, the that we have, which means using
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  all of the strengths that we have and pivoting them for different things that we need to do in
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  life.
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  And I think we all have that within us, hence, the workplace, Atalia, was born.
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  Long story, but, it has many levels of meaning for me.
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  Well, I I love it because I I think you're ultimately, I think we want to be connected to
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  ourselves.
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  To bring bring the best versions of ourselves to work, which fosters everything from
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  creativity to innovation, you know, to cohesion and connectedness, right, which which are all
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  the elements.
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  If you think about Natalia, it's it's that space where you get to be colorful and, pull on
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  lots of different things to be able to to tap into that space.
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  So I I I think it's a it's a really nice version of what ultimately I think a lot of
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  Workplaces that get it would understand the core elements of what it is to help employees,
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  bring their best versions or tap into the best versions of themselves at work.
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  Oh, yeah.
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  Absolutely.
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  And so many companies are talking about innovation.
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  Right?
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  As their cutting edge, strategy moving forward.
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  And that has so much to do with being creative and learning and bringing your whole self to
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  work and sharing that wisdom and knowledge.
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  So let's talk about let's talk just talk about, creativity and as an organizational
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  psychologist, you've obviously you're in within organizations.
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  And when someone is reaching out to you.
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  Are they are they already creative, or are they maybe addressing more, I would say crisis
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  oriented issues that allows you at inroads that might eventually introduce the the the
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  possibility of creatives.
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  Yeah.
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  That's an excellent question, Roxanne.
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  I I think we we both know as colleagues in a similar field that that people tend to reach
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  out when there is a crisis situation.
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  And, but happily, that's not the only reason people reach out.
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  So I would still say a majority of folks will reach out when there's a crisis, and many of
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  them will say to me, I'm so sorry we didn't reach out before because we've gone through
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  painful phases, which we may have been able to avoid.
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  But I am beginning to see that there is a trend of people who and companies, and leaders who
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  are beginning to engage with me as an organizational psychologist as a format for
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  learning.
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  So where there is, maybe a trigger that calls for can we bring in somebody who has a
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  different viewpoint, a different lens, who might be able to shed a different light on this
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  issue, subject, idea that we want to put forward, can we engage with somebody outside of
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  the organization for this?
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  And then sometimes I am approached, in that vein, which is a very different kind of a
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  function.
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  So let me give you an example.
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  Very recently, I was asked to participate in a diversity audit in an international setting.
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  And it was the very first time that they brought in not only experts and auditors, but a
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  psychologist as well to understand more deeply why some of the measures were not kicking in
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  the way they had been expected to.
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  Now that's a fascinating arena, isn't it?
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  Absolutely.
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  Like, it's like a at at that point, it's like a playground, isn't it?
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  Like, not because not only are, you know, you know, we're not looking at keep just that KPIs.
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  What are the key performance indicators that would tell us why diversity and inclusion
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  protocols or or, things that you put in place haven't worked, but to me, it's getting at the
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  root cause organizationally of what you know, gone are the days.
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  Like you said, if you brought in, hey, let's do a change management day.
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  Let's do some stress management training.
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  But, you know, which I often say, yeah, it might be a nice to have periodically, but are
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  you getting right down into what are the true fundamental needs of, say, a subset of a units
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  or the culture, you're you're not really getting down.
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  So in that way, I'm thinking how progressive.
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  Yeah.
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  I would I thought was an amazing, an amazing project.
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  And I think you're so right I think it's so much about getting down to the assumptions we
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  make, the mindset we have.
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  I work with some amazing leaders who are very successful.
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  And, they periodically seek out coaching, as you know, as well, even without there being a
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  crisis in order to reflect And I think that's a key word here, right, to reflect on their
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  attitudes and their mindsets and the assumptions they're making in order to gain
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  more wisdom and knowledge about Other ways of doing things that they need to do, other
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  approaches.
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  And I I also work with some fantastically intelligent people who sometimes cannot grapple
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  that they're unable to deal with their team and the conflicts and communication issues in their
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  team And this is because they have convinced themselves that there is a certain way of
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  managing people, and there's a certain way they need to be as leaders and have forgotten to
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  explore other avenues in this and have not given themselves the space to do so.
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  Right?
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  And when you start to untie some of those assumptions, you know, amazing things emerge in
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  conversations and, you know, massive, And these are highly intelligent people who are
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  absolutely able.
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  It's just giving them the space to have that conversation.
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  And to have that learning opportunity.
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  So
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  Well, it's interesting that you said that.
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  So, obviously, as me coming from you know, the clinical end, but all also working
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  organizationally for over 20 years.
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  So when I wrote this new book that I'm launching, which is launching, this week, What
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  I did is I created, an assessment called the AQL, which is basically the authentic
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  authenticity quotient for leaders.
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  Because I wanted them to really drill down into the core fundamentals of why they lead the way
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  they lead in five areas.
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  Recognition, connection communication, you know, balance processing.
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  All those areas because then What is your perception of yourself in those areas?
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  But then ultimately, how are the people around you perceiving you?
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  From their lens and then collating, from the assessment with the leader.
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  How what's his been mark or her benchmark compared to what the team's benchmark
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  individually and collectively are of them and talk about a a snapshot where they're able to
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  look and say, wow, thought I was really good at connection, but in fact, 75% of my team is
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  saying I'm not so good.
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  And where where why does the disparity exist and then ultimately we create plans for them to
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  be able to progress along.
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  So reflection is very, very key.
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  To your point, that you shared earlier.
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  Absolutely, Roxanne.
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  And I'm looking forward to to reading your book when we finally get our hands on it.
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  And, I I, you know, I think it all goes back to that question that one of Well, one of our
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  management gurus, I think, and it was also the title of a Harvard Business article.
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  Why would anybody want to be led by you?
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  Right?
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  It's it's a question I think that leaders do need to reflect on.
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  And periodically, right?
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  It's not one of those things where you just take the box and then move on and and do things
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  for another 20 years the way you've always done them.
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  I think the other challenge we have is that the context we are working and living in is
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  changing rapidly and quite dramatically in some places.
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  Through the introduction of technology and and all the other things that are happening in our
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  environment.
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  You know, we've migrated from Vuka too.
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  I think it's called Bonnie now.
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  So
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  Bonnie.
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  Okay.
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  I'm not up
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  to you.
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  And there's the word anxiety in that, which is Well, we which, by the way, works on is is
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  equally interesting for you to investigate, I think.
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  So, yeah, the world is becoming a very very complex place and the workplace reflects that
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  too.
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  Absolutely.
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  So that, when you say that, is it Bonnie, v a n I?
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  Bonnie, it's b a n I.
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  E a n I.
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  Okay.
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  Yeah.
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  And I I don't know enough about that to speak about it.
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  Is that something you you know a lot about the acronym and what it stands for?
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  Oh, no.
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  Absolutely not.
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  I've just, I've just been, told that Vuka is out, and we're now looking at Bonnie and Bonnie
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  means, and I'm gonna have to check it for you.
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  Myself, but Bonnie means brittle, anxious, nonlinear, and incomprehensible.
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  Wow.
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  When it's kind of the world.
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  It's not hit.
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  Ready hits the nerve of where we are organizationally, isn't it?
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  On a on a macro on a micro level to some degree with everything that we've been through.
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  Now, clearly, I would say, and when I when I you know, deal with leaders.
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  I go to, you know, how do they connect and what are are their adult attachment styles?
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  I get in.
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  I drill right down into who they are and how they connect and, you know, what is that
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  leadership story?
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  Like, what is your story?
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  And I share my story about my dad and his leadership story because, of course, it was
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  very impactful for me.
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  So I try to try to resonate with that leader to say, you know, you didn't just get here.
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  There were steps and, like, to your point, why you well, there's a definite story behind the
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  why you and why you lead the way you do to really have them start to think about it.
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  And it's a pretty impressive ice, I would say to have that most people are like, yeah.
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  You know what?
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  I hadn't thought about this.
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  I value this.
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  And so, therefore, You know what?
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  It it kind of migrates through everything that I how I interact and how I connect and all
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  those things.
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  And you know, I think leaders of today, I think more than, say, 20, 25 years ago when I started
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  corporate, they're more likely to say, yes.
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  I may be be disposed to be this way, but I'm recognizing that I have to be more like this
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  and this.
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  And I'm not so good at this Roxanne.
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  I'm I'm straight up with you.
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  I'm that's not, you know, I'm like, if they're not wired like me, it's hard for me sometimes,
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  but I'm willing to listen to try to think about how I could be slow myself to understand the
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  needs and eventually develop the skill, hopefully, with time.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  I I don't know where we got lost in that leadership journey when we decided leaders were
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  experts and have forgotten that they leaders is about service.
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  Leadership is about service, and it's also about learning reflecting and a certain amount
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  of humbleness.
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  I think at one point, we diverted from that idea to the idea that leaders are supposed to
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  be experts.
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  And in the complex world we have today, it's virtually impossible for a single person.
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  To manage or handle the multifaceted challenges and issues that face us.
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  So, you've probably read on my profile that I actually, was the editor of Apollo Gray volume
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  on distributed leadership.
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  And that is what I I'm looking at more and more, and this also links to, agility.
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  Right.
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  Because it's about being able to leverage the talent you have in order to achieve or manage
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  situations and outcomes that you aspire to.
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  And distributed leadership doesn't mean everybody's a leader.
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  In a conventional sense.
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  We still require, people who are going to manage the situations and, and, create the
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  constellations needed for outcomes.
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  But it does mean that the way you look your resources and the way you look at people you
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  are collaborating with has more of an element of co creation.
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  Rather than an element of command and control.
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  Right?
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  And in the same way, you also appreciate the individual as an accountable learning
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  individual who has something to contribute and you're creating that space for them to be able
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  to contribute and to share their knowledge for greater wisdom.
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  So I often say, you know, and this is less philosophical.
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  It's a bit like a football team, right?
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  A soccer team for the North Americans who obviously have a captain and everybody has
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  their roles, but Everybody's allowed to shoot a goal.
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  Right?
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  Because that's the whole point of the game.
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  Right?
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  So there's nothing saying only the captain has to.
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  The goal, the goal or, you know, and the defense players only play defense.
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  No.
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  They've all got a common purpose.
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  They've still got their different roles and their different strengths, but they're all in
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  it together.
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  And, this is what distributed leadership is all about.
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  And I think we are slowly migrating to a place where this is perhaps more valuable and
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  certainly takes the pressure off this singular idea of a leader, and emphasizes the social
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  relations.
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  In teams and in leadership and breaks down some of that silo thinking.
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  So it's a new century, Roxanne.
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  And I think You know, it's time to question even the assumptions we make about leaders in
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  general and their role.
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  Which I think, you know, for the leaders, that I work with or talk to, it, you know,
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  oftentimes it's a lot of lonely at the top.
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  Right?
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  And they feel such pressure to keep it all together, but this, distributed leadership, I
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  like that concept.
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  I talk a little bit about affinity and alignment.
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  But this kind of almost takes it at a microscopic level to say, okay.
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  Well, if Roxanne has the skill to do X Y Z, It's okay that she proceeds up and and inflects
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  the entire environment because at that time, I may be leading for a bit.
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  And and the leader may be on my team or vice versa.
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  So what a kind of nice synergistic flow that would create, right, because, you know, I think
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  on on my teams, with my business, there's so many things I'm not good at, Neehaw, that, I
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  mean, if I if I had to do them, I would feel horribly.
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  And, you know, and I often say that I'm if I think I'm doing something really, really well
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  and I'm doing poorly at me, we have that level of trust for them to say, I don't I don't I
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  think we should take you off that.
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  And and then, oh, okay.
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  Sure.
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  Why?
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  Because it's, you know, I may have done things that they had to redo that they would have done
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  in the past behind the scenes to save face for me.
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  I'm like, no.
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  I I hire you because for I believe in your capacity to help me, understand what my role
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  is.
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  So I think I love that approach because You know, when I was an executive 25 years ago, I
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  would've had a team around me, and I would often say to them, whoever it was, help me
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  understand how I could get better.
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  And, you know, at that time in in my corporate structure, I did not get good feedback about
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  that.
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  Mhmm.
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  Because they felt that I was being, shoulder to shoulder with my team.
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  And I'm like, Well, this is how I lead.
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  I I just I don't literally, you know, how to lead any better because to me, that made me
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  feel more connected to everyone.
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  And when people were connected, they seemed to, you know, have a better flow with things.
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  But 25 years ago, it was like, no.
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  No.
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  No.
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  You're the executive.
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  You meet this team.
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  We need for you to be giving direct messages.
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  So I was, you know, running oftentimes bumping up against things that I didn't feel very
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  comfortable with.
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  I I can really appreciate that.
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  I think that sense of leadership comes from 1st world war where people were leaping out of
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  trenches.
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  Right?
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  The captains were leaping out of trenches, and everybody was expected to follow.
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  I'm not sure.
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  I think nowadays we also talk about followership.
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  Right?
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  And what that really means, you know, how how are people effective followers that's really
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  fascinating that we're actually talking about that in in management literature now too.
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  Definitely, you know, the whole idea of 360 broke down the idea of these procurements,
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  right, where where you're supposed to know everything.
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  And I and I and I believe that today, good leadership is about a conversation.
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  It's a conversation.
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  It's a cocreation.
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  It's an engagement.
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  And it's it's quite worrying.
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  I mean, if we were to take this out of our in in a political space, you know, the detachment
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  of citizens toward their governments and leaders that they have elected is quite
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  daunting.
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  Right?
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  And this shows that the conversation has simply broken down and also the sense of the lack of
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  service, right, which is what leadership is about.
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  So quite happy that's change Roxanne I don't think anybody would would reprimand you for for
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  taking that sense today.
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  Well, I was I was reprimanded back then, but now in retrospect, I said, I I often go back to
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  what is my leadership.
• 25:09
  I said I grew up in Trinidad and a little village with a very extended family who were
• 25:14
  friends and friends and neighbors who became like family.
• 25:18
  And I I would I would say I was literally raised by the village because it was small and
• 25:23
  connected.
• 25:24
  And, that's that's who I am as a person.
• 25:28
  That's where I live here in Niagara Falls.
• 25:30
  I live in a little village again, and my connections are still small and very tight.
• 25:35
  So I think, you know, out of me came that element that I wanted to prove that around me
• 25:40
  as well.
• 25:41
  But when I ended up in the corporate structure, I was like, okay, I'm bumping up here.
• 25:46
  They're not wanting this, what the space that I felt comfortable with.
• 25:51
  I managed as effectively as possible, but now within those structures, it would be different.
• 25:57
  I would hope a lot different than, say, 25 years ago.
• 26:00
  Yeah.
• 26:01
  It's definitely moved on, but I still think that corporate corporate structures are are
• 26:07
  still rather restrictive.
• 26:08
  Right?
• 26:09
  There is a sort of this mainstream idea And and I and I challenge that.
• 26:13
  I even challenge the idea whether there needs to be corporate culture that sort of ties
• 26:18
  everybody in or whether there isn't a better way to to weave people to contribute, their
• 26:26
  knowledge and create further knowledge.
• 26:28
  Right?
• 26:29
  That's the idea.
• 26:30
  Nobody I mean, knowledge is not something you hold on to.
• 26:32
  Wisdom is not something you hold on to.
• 26:34
  It's only when you share it that it actually grows.
• 26:38
  Otherwise, you kind of, you can't nurture it, and it's not something that's so tangible.
• 26:45
  So you know, I can think I'm brilliant if I'm, you know, talking absolute rubbish that makes
• 26:50
  no sense to anybody else, but only to me, that's not really knowledge.
• 26:54
  There's there's an element of social relation when it comes to these to these things.
• 27:00
  So, hence, even more important that there is co creation.
• 27:05
  Right?
• 27:05
  And this leads to innovation.
• 27:06
  This leads to general.
• 27:07
  And I think the the corporate kind of mission vision you know, kinda, you know, what what why
• 27:14
  why did the company come about?
• 27:16
  So I get that.
• 27:17
  But have these structures, the coral trees, and the the norms, what I hear, and I I love this
• 27:24
  that you're talking about this because like, why not have that be almost like wisdom circles
• 27:30
  where people identify, collectively, to inflect how that mission or vision should go versus it
• 27:38
  being from the top down, right, kinda corporate governance and, okay, we regulatory bodies
• 27:44
  that's different when there's compliance, all those things.
• 27:46
  We get that.
• 27:47
  That's a different conversation, and certain things have to be in place.
• 27:51
  But I love, you know, if we almost think like wisdom circles, that's just peeing to my mind
• 27:55
  now, which is what you're saying, and then it'd be those moving concentric circles within that
• 28:02
  organization where people are openly sharing their wisdom you that might that the the things
• 28:09
  that you might come up with would be so powerful that, you know, would be the vision of
• 28:14
  the mission that's kinda in the front always as you enter into the corporate environment, it
• 28:18
  would be a working living space that people would come from?
• 28:23
  Thanks.
• 28:23
  I mean, I think you still may have a vision because that would be like, you know, what is
• 28:27
  this organization here for?
• 28:29
  Like, in general terms.
• 28:31
  But certainly your strategic plans that are, you know, neatly put onto pieces of paper and
• 28:36
  then put into some drawer somewhere and you're KPI tables and all the other stuff you do.
• 28:41
  That stuff doesn't get looked at again, you know, once a year.
• 28:45
  Somebody looks at this and says, okay.
• 28:47
  We managed.
• 28:47
  We didn't manage.
• 28:48
  Whatever.
• 28:49
  That is just so unreal because the world we're in is just so dynamic.
• 28:53
  So I love the wiz wisdom circles.
• 28:55
  You see, we've developed an idea just through this conversation.
• 29:00
  Like, I wouldn't have labeled it as such, but you've taken this something triggered, right,
• 29:05
  and you've taken it and developed this whole concept.
• 29:08
  And this is exactly what I'm talking about, and this is exactly what agility is.
• 29:13
  And behind all of my thinking is the fact that we have, we have caged ourselves in so many
• 29:22
  management concepts, you know, be it KPIs or, you know, who developed the idea that we can
• 29:27
  motivate somebody That's actually nonsense.
• 29:31
  We can't motivate people.
• 29:33
  We've reduced people to pavlov's dogs.
• 29:35
  We think, you know, I give you a promotion.
• 29:37
  That's gonna keep going for another year or so.
• 29:40
  It doesn't work that way.
• 29:42
  If you're not motivated yourself, I can do very little from the outside.
• 29:48
  To motivate.
• 29:48
  So there's something very intrinsic about the conversations.
• 29:52
  I can engage with you and hope that I can, trigger passion or an idea or something by
• 29:58
  sharing my own, but I can't really motivate you.
• 30:02
  I mean, it's just So there's so much in management theory that really needs to be
• 30:07
  looked at again, and maybe it was was wonderful in the 20th century and in the 19 seventies and
• 30:12
  so on because economy was a very industrial linear, reflection of these thoughts.
• 30:22
  But I think today, it would be very, very difficult to imitate this.
• 30:30
  Thinking and be successful going ahead.
• 30:33
  And how many corporations are still running by that, though?
• 30:36
  Like, I mean, if you think about it, We can have these conversations and you're in
• 30:40
  organizations and so am I, and we're hearing it.
• 30:43
  Right?
• 30:44
  To your point, it it it's not industrial.
• 30:46
  It's nonlinear.
• 30:48
  Right?
• 30:48
  It's deep.
• 30:49
  We need to de stratify and and the silo, the, you know, de silo, I'm gonna say truly to reach
• 30:56
  people where they're at.
• 30:58
  And you know, I think we're coming along, but I think a lot more work has to continue along
• 31:04
  these lines to meet people where they are.
• 31:06
  There's a lot of pain in organizations too, which nobody wants to talk about.
• 31:11
  And I think that even though we can argue that there are many, corporations that still work in
• 31:17
  this way.
• 31:18
  We shouldn't forget that even dinosaurs have failed I mean, I can think of a a whole series
• 31:24
  of companies that I have seen fail in the last 20 years that we may have thought you know,
• 31:30
  that would not have been possible.
• 31:32
  There were I think of the IT world.
• 31:34
  There was a company called DEC that failed.
• 31:37
  Or compact, or there are a number of companies that have not succeeded.
• 31:43
  Right?
• 31:43
  And they were at one point very rich powerful companies.
• 31:48
  So there's nothing saying that just being large and doing what you've always done is going to
• 31:56
  take you forward.
• 31:59
  So I I do actually feel that many companies are are looking many organizations are looking, at
• 32:07
  different ways and are happy to experiment, with different methods and tools.
• 32:14
  The interesting thing for me sometimes is that even in the startup world, there's a lot of
• 32:19
  imitation of old school management.
• 32:21
  Because they grabble to set up something new, and they also need to be challenged.
• 32:28
  Yeah.
• 32:28
  That's a that's a good point.
• 32:30
  I guess there's there's so much to do that they're maybe trying to find some structure so
• 32:34
  that they're going back to the old.
• 32:37
  Yeah.
• 32:37
  Now with with working, let's say you know, if if some leaders are listening and they're
• 32:42
  thinking, oh, this, you know, ladies, this sounds like a nice conversation.
• 32:47
  And, I do some of it but I'm I'm really even sure where to begin.
• 32:54
  What might be a couple of points that you would want them to reflect on as they think about
• 32:58
  making some decisions, to lead in a different way.
• 33:05
  So are you talking now at for for the company, or are you talking about a leader as such?
• 33:10
  Let's say that, you know, the person that has the power to run the company.
• 33:15
  Okay.
• 33:15
  That lead the senior leadership team.
• 33:18
  So I think one thing, that is daunting, but also very revealing oftentimes is to sit down
• 33:27
  and think about things that happen in the organization and New Yearly associated with the
• 33:35
  purpose and the outcome that you seek to achieve.
• 33:39
  And if it is not contributing towards that or if you cannot clearly say how it's contributing
• 33:45
  towards that, then it's probably something that needs to be reconsidered.
• 33:49
  Okay.
• 33:50
  Okay?
• 33:51
  So that goes back to, I think, the, the story that we all know, we don't know whether that
• 33:56
  really happened or not, but you you probably know this one, Roxanne JFK going off to Nasa
• 34:03
  where he meets the janitor and basically says, what, you know, what do you do around here?
• 34:07
  And the janitor says, sir, I help put a man on the moon.
• 34:10
  Right?
• 34:12
  So the association, you know, that that janitor has for the work that he does towards the
• 34:18
  larger If you cannot identify in your organization, all the tasks that make a clear
• 34:26
  contribution, how they make a contribution, you should be reshuffling the work and the
• 34:32
  expertise.
• 34:33
  It's kind of sometimes a very sore, a surcise because we realize we do a lot of stuff that is
• 34:39
  not very meaningful and does not contribute to outcome.
• 34:43
  That's the one thing The other thing, for individual leaders that I think is a powerful
• 34:48
  exercise is to sometimes reflect on a situation where you've responded or solved it, and also
• 34:59
  successfully.
• 35:00
  So not something that's gone wrong necessarily.
• 35:04
  And think of a second way you could have done it.
• 35:09
  So I don't I don't have such a big focus on things that don't work and, you know,
• 35:13
  weaknesses and failures and things.
• 35:15
  I have more of the focus on, like, you've done well.
• 35:20
  How else do you think you could have done well?
• 35:23
  Like, is there another way of doing this and testing your own mind in that process?
• 35:28
  So those are two two big tips I think, one for an individual base and one for an
• 35:32
  organizational base.
• 35:34
  What what what amazing tips?
• 35:36
  I love that, you know, that How much, redundancy might you come up with as well when
• 35:44
  you look at the individual roles?
• 35:47
  Because to your point, if if I don't think I matter and my role my role may be very
• 35:55
  important, but that disconnection from feeling like I matter impacts their impacts my world
• 36:03
  and then it impacts everybody around me.
• 36:05
  So even that exercise would be amazing for an organization to look at because it really would
• 36:10
  help them understand and who are the golden boys and who are the ones that do all the quiet
• 36:14
  work and doesn't get recognition.
• 36:16
  Lots of lots of pieces then, and then you aggregate all of that.
• 36:20
  And could look at that rating and see, you know, see the overall, I would say structure of
• 36:27
  the, culture.
• 36:29
  Absolutely.
• 36:29
  Yeah.
• 36:30
  Yeah.
• 36:30
  And I think that could be put in performance appraisals if you still want to do a
• 36:35
  performance appraisal.
• 36:36
  Right?
• 36:36
  And that would be the biggest motivator for any individual to be able to say, you know, this is
• 36:43
  how I've contributed to the greater mission because how many of us joined fabulous
• 36:47
  organizations?
• 36:48
  Because we think they're fabulous, and we're really engaged by what they do in the world.
• 36:55
  And then all of a sudden feel okay, but this is actually not what I was expecting to do or see
• 37:01
  inside these organizations.
• 37:04
  So that would, you know, create that stronger link and then you don't need to have all kinds
• 37:08
  of other motivational rewards and whatnot because people are there because they want to
• 37:14
  be there, and they want to make a contribution.
• 37:17
  In that vein, I also think organizations spend much, too much time creating all kinds of
• 37:23
  controlling policies.
• 37:25
  And, I I don't know why why do we hire people?
• 37:29
  We don't trust I I don't understand that.
• 37:31
  Why why would we do that?
• 37:32
  Right?
• 37:32
  It doesn't make any sense.
• 37:34
  So here again, Yeah.
• 37:37
  There are many more things I could share Roxanne, but I don't wanna I
• 37:40
  don't wanna hijack, the next hour doing so.
• 37:45
  Well, this this has been amazing.
• 37:47
  So, Neha, for anyone in listening that, are interested in your work or getting a hold of
• 37:53
  you, in the different ways that you work, where where can they get a hold of you?
• 38:01
  So, obviously, I have a LinkedIn profile, but also my website allows people to get in touch
• 38:07
  through a contact form.
• 38:08
  So that's, the workplace, atelier.com.
• 38:13
  Obviously, the w w w goes before that.
• 38:18
  And that would really be the best way.
• 38:19
  Or otherwise, please feel free to link with me on LinkedIn.
• 38:25
  It would be a great, great pleasure and honor to link with as many people as possible.
• 38:31
  Spare some of these ideas.
• 38:34
  Well, thank you.
• 38:35
  So what am I walking away with?
• 38:39
  Conscious connected conversations and looking at people's roles and how they matter in
• 38:46
  reference to outcomes.
• 38:47
  I think that's I mean, you know, kind of hit home for me.
• 38:52
  Like, that type of leadership would be amazing if you could do the type of leadership, and I'm
• 39:01
  not gonna forget the name of it right now.
• 39:03
  You called it divisional
• 39:05
  No.
• 39:06
  Distributed leadership is what I
• 39:07
  already distributed leadership.
• 39:09
  I I I think that's something that I'd love love to learn more about and hear more about.
• 39:15
  In the literature as we go.
• 39:16
  I think that's very, very important.
• 39:18
  So that's what I'm taking away.
• 39:21
  I hope you're taking away a lot more.
• 39:22
  Let us know please write a review for us on iTunes.
• 39:27
  We would love to hear what feedback for me as well.
• 39:29
  And for me, what's happening, I'm launching this book on Saturday, June 10th.
• 39:36
  Please, if you're in, the area in Niagara, come visit.
• 39:40
  If not, We're doing one on June 27th.
• 39:43
  You can regards to where you in the world, you can tap in.
• 39:46
  Just let us know.
• 39:47
  We'll put you on the list and make sure you can get there.
• 39:50
  And, thanks for hanging out with us again, Neha.
• 39:53
  And for everyone, I always feel very blessed that you take the time every single Thursday to
• 40:00
  tune in and hear what, we're we're talking about, on leadership.
• 40:05
  Take care, and we'll talk to everybody soon.
• 40:07
  Bye bye.
• 40:09
  Thanks for tuning in to authentic living with Roxanne, creating the space for positive
• 40:14
  healthy change.
• 40:15
  Roxanne is a keen speaker, psychotherapist, and coach to work with Roxanne, visit
• 40:22
  roxannedurhaj.com/blueprint we'll see you next time.
• 40:27
  An authentic living with Roxanne.