Latest / SEA of Startups / 🎙EP 20: Singapore did it...again: How the SGX–NASDAQ Dual Listing Bridge Rewrites Southeast Asia’s Exit Game

Transcript

🎙EP 20: Singapore did it...again: How the SGX–NASDAQ Dual Listing Bridge Rewrites Southeast Asia’s Exit Game · SEA of Startups

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, everyone.
• 0:01
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome back to the Sea of Startups.
• 0:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Kim.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: And I am Kevin.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: What a year it has been.
• 0:08
  You know that feeling when you're building something and your
• 0:10
  head's down months.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: In our context, maybe not years, months.
• 0:14
  And then you look up and realize the entire landscape all kind
• 0:17
  of shifted in a way
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: with Lovable and all that.
• 0:20
  This year,
• 0:21
  especially,
• 0:21
  wipe coding is the big thing for me and how AI has moved.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_00: And that's where
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_00: We are right now in Southeast Asia startup ecosystem.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_02: We're at a tipping point right now within the startup ecosystem,
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_02: the transition that AI is bringing.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: It's been a rough year for the Southeast Asia ecosystem overall.
• 0:46
  But,
• 0:46
  you know,
• 0:47
  it's interesting to just be watching it unfold in real time.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the seas were rough.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: South China Sea was rough.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: Choppy seas.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: The choppy sea of startup.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, too much of chicken chop in some ways.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_00: It's called chop chop.
• 1:05
  So from...
• 1:06
  Yeah,
• 1:07
  so we are just doing a small little round out before we break
• 1:12
  for the holidays.
• 1:13
  A bit of a full circle moment that connects the dots on some
• 1:16
  stuff that we've been
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: talking about this year.
• 1:17
  Yeah,
• 1:18
  so from our conversations with founders navigating cross-border
• 1:21
  execution to...
• 1:23
  Some parts of our conversations of climate tech builders
• 1:25
  operating in capital
• 1:26
  intensive environments to that persistent question of every
• 1:29
  late stage founder that
• 1:31
  SPEAKER_00: asked,
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_00: where do we actually exit?
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things,
• 1:35
  so there's been a longstanding aim of the Singapore Stock
• 1:40
  Exchange and by the
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Singapore government at large that
• 1:45
  They've been wanting to try and figure out how can they resolve
• 1:50
  some of the issues
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: of public market access and being a more viable exit pathway,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_02: especially for the startup ecosystem.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: Recently, news story comes out and
• 2:06
  The SGX is pairing up with Nasdaq to essentially establish a
• 2:12
  dual listing bridge,
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_02: which was a recent announcement that came back.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: Sounds interesting on the surface.
• 2:21
  I have a handful of doubts underlying that of what the real
• 2:27
  effectiveness of it will be.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: But an interesting story nonetheless.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 2:31
  one of the things that's been haunting the Southeast Asia
• 2:33
  ecosystem is everyone
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: complains about exits,
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_02: exit,
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: exit.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_02: So here we have...
• 2:38
  something which is a news story which on the surface seems
• 2:42
  positive and singapore
• 2:44
  just did it again taking the frontier about doing this dual
• 2:48
  listing within the
• 2:49
  southeast asia market just as how culturally like for example
• 2:53
  case in point taylor
• 2:54
  swift as well dominated singapore for five days i feel there
• 2:58
  are some parallels
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: right here and
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how I drew that,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_00: but anyway,
• 3:04
  this is just another case in point that Singapore is taking the
• 3:06
  lead on a lot of
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: things.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of them.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: So Kevin got the news and then I started digging.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: And what I found was that this wasn't happening in isolation.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: There's this whole other constellation of things going around that,
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Singapore being Singapore,
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: there's a fintech funding reset,
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: which we will dive into later.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: Again, Singapore takes the lead.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: No one has...
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_00: No beef right there.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: EQDP, Sovereign Capital Repositioning, all moving in the same direction.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we decided to connect the dots.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_00: Kevin found the news and Kim found the patterns.
• 3:42
  And what emerged is this story about how Singapore is basically
• 3:45
  building its own
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_00: version of Silicon Valley's capital stack,
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: but for Southeast Asia.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: And it's happening right now.
• 4:09
  So shall we dive in and start talking about the specifics in
• 4:13
  regards to what's
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_02: going on with this deal?
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Let's start with that headline.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Let's get into it.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_02: It basically kind of flew under the radar.
• 4:25
  SGX and NASDAQ essentially announced they're creating this dual
• 4:28
  listing bridge,
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_02: as I was saying earlier.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_02: While that sounds cool, it is geared towards larger size companies.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really only geared, you have to have a $2.5 billion market cap.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_02: In order for this to even be applicable to you.
• 4:49
  So it's not talking about like these smaller listings or these
• 4:52
  sort of things.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's really geared at somewhat larger size companies to begin with.
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_02: So first off, size quantum, you have to be on the bigger side of it.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_02: But it does solve...
• 5:10
  some serious concerns because let's talk about some of the pain
• 5:13
  points to begin
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_02: with and see whether or not the context of this actually makes sense.
• 5:17
  Because if you look at most of the Southeast Asian companies
• 5:21
  that have gone on for
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_02: listings in NASDAQ in the past,
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_02: some of them have actually done dual listings,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: which we can talk about what they had to do in order to do that.
• 5:29
  But the challenge of going public in NASDAQ is you're on the
• 5:34
  complete opposite side
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: of the planet and you have to get people to care
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: You have to get people to pay attention.
• 5:42
  And while it may end up seeming straightforward of like a great
• 5:46
  business should
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: automatically get it,
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: it doesn't actually.
• 5:50
  Because while we may end up saying efficient markets,
• 5:55
  it's not really the reality.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: What you need is you need to get a lot of analyst coverage.
• 6:00
  You need to get enough visibility and you need to get enough of
• 6:03
  a buzz that people
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: will actually pay attention.
• 6:06
  analyze it and make a market so what happens is you have to
• 6:12
  look at the level of
• 6:13
  liquidity how active of a trading market is there for the
• 6:17
  shares of the company
• 6:18
  that are listed because if it's thinly traded you're going to
• 6:21
  end up getting wiped
• 6:22
  out basically you're not going to have liquidity for your
• 6:26
  investors you're not
• 6:26
  going to end up getting good pricing the moment that you try
• 6:29
  and put some put a
• 6:30
  SPEAKER_02: block up for sale essentially it's going to end up getting wiped out but
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_02: In the local market back here in Southeast Asia,
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_02: if you're a Southeast Asia company that is worth,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: say,
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: 3 billion,
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: 5 billion,
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: somewhere slightly above that threshold,
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: you've probably got local brand.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: People know about you.
• 6:52
  It's hard to be that size in this regional environment and
• 6:56
  people not know about you.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: So is a dual listing going to end up capturing that?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_02: Well, on the NASDAQ side, probably not.
• 7:08
  But on the SGX side,
• 7:11
  the people that would be trading there are going to end up
• 7:13
  trading.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: But now let's flip it.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: What's the difference?
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_02: If I just do a straight listing on SGX,
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm expecting that it's going to be the same trading.
• 7:27
  Is that that much of a difference that those local traders
• 7:32
  would not trade me if I
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_02: was not duly listed?
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_02: And the flip side of it,
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: by having that dual listing,
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_02: is that going to make any impact on the analyst coverage,
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_02: the liquidity on the NASDAQ side?
• 7:46
  So I think it's cool that this is being established because it
• 7:50
  does solve some pain points.
• 7:52
  You're solving the legal and regulatory burden because it is a
• 7:56
  giant pain in the
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_02: backside to go through two separate processes and
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: Two completely different,
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: complicated registration,
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_02: like filing for an IPO and getting the whole process.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_02: Lawyers make a killing,
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_02: accountants make a killing,
• 8:14
  and the founders and the operators of the business just want to
• 8:16
  kill themselves by
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_02: the time it's done.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: It's not a fun thing to go through.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's a big achievement.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me wrong, but it's painstaking and it occupies a lot of time.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_02: So it does solve the problem of having to do duplicate effort.
• 8:34
  My question on this and my hesitation on whether or not this is
• 8:38
  really the silver
• 8:39
  bullet that we're hoping for in regards to solving this public
• 8:45
  market aspect is...
• 8:48
  SPEAKER_02: liquidity and analyst coverage on the Nasdaq side?
• 8:52
  And does this actually encourage traders on the regional side
• 8:57
  to actually make
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: movements more so than they would if it was just directly,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_02: solely linked here?
• 9:04
  It sounds to me like it's being,
• 9:07
  at least in the SGX,
• 9:09
  it's like a big fish in a small pond.
• 9:11
  SPEAKER_00: And when it comes to Nasdaq, it's like...
• 9:14
  small fish in big ponds whereby it gets overshadowed face it
• 9:18
  right like in in the
• 9:20
  states the companies are much much bigger the liquidity markets
• 9:24
  are more fluid in
• 9:25
  that sense here it's like it's still pretty slow um so i think
• 9:30
  this sgx well
• 9:31
  listening the way i'm hearing it is that it benefits more of
• 9:34
  singaporean local sea
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: companies more than anything else and
• 9:38
  than the states really because it gets them exposure to the
• 9:43
  states but then again
• 9:44
  as to how fast it moves i it is i think it would easily get
• 9:49
  overshadowed by the
• 9:50
  bigger companies in on a nasdaq listing like that's kind of the
• 9:55
  point who's who's
• 9:56
  paying attention on the nasdaq yeah like are you going to get
• 9:59
  analysts paying
• 10:00
  SPEAKER_02: attention so is the dual listing just for like ego
• 10:05
  Or is it actually going to end up really solving something from
• 10:08
  a trading side?
• 10:10
  Is it really creating an additional liquidity that could not
• 10:15
  have been accomplished otherwise?
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me wrong.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm a fan of this.
• 10:20
  I'm just hesitant because it's uncertain of whether or not it's
• 10:23
  going to have
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: meaningful impact on this.
• 10:27
  I like the marketing buzz that this creates because it shows
• 10:30
  validity into these markets.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_02: And no market in Southeast Asia could have done it other than Singapore.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:39
  So for example,
• 10:40
  Grab chose Nasdaq,
• 10:42
  C chose NYSE,
• 10:43
  and for years the message was clear.
• 10:46
  If you want to be taken seriously as a tech company,
• 10:48
  you don't list it in Singapore.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one of it.
• 10:51
  SPEAKER_00: So does it then put SGX on a higher level?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Like you said,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: ego,
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: because it's like,
• 10:56
  it kind of elevates your position to a national basis whereby
• 11:00
  more companies would
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: want to be listed on SGX.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: Again,
• 11:03
  it gives more exposure to see companies who come on to at least
• 11:08
  perform better than
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: their counterparts and to be listed on the dual listing.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: On the flip side is where do they stand once they get listed on NASDAQ?
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: do they get,
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: what do you call that,
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: dissipate into the oblivion in NASDAQ listing in the States?
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Or,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: because they are calling this a landmark collaboration,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: right,
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: that gives Asian growth companies a
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: a quote-unquote harmonized pathway to tap both U.S.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: and Asian capital markets simultaneously.
• 11:43
  SPEAKER_00: So the keyword was simultaneously.
• 11:46
  And then this connects directly to something we've been
• 11:48
  exploring all season.
• 11:49
  Some points to our conversation with Chi Chi about cross-border
• 11:53
  execution and trust.
• 11:56
  So one of the key points was that the best regional companies
• 11:59
  don't try to be
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: American companies operating in Asia.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: They build with a
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: fundamentally regional DNA while maintaining global standards.
• 12:08
  So maybe the flip side of it in terms of the pros is that this
• 12:13
  dual listing
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: framework is literally the capital markets version of that philosophy.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you're not abandoning your Asian identity to access US capital.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: You are literally bridging both worlds.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_02: Which is fair.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's just an honor of like, who is actually
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: providing the trading volume.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: That remains to be seen.
• 12:42
  It again comes down to somebody has to care enough in order to
• 12:47
  bother making a
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: market and trading your shares.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: And is there going to be enough of a market there?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_02: And so therein lies the challenge.
• 12:59
  I think this is mostly pure upside on the SGX side because they
• 13:04
  get to go around to
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_02: all these startups in the region and say,
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_02: hey,
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_02: we're paired up with NASDAQ.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_02: Just do the listing here and you'll automatically be there.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_02: And we're a short flight away.
• 13:16
  So if you need to talk to lawyers or anything on a regular
• 13:19
  basis,
• 13:20
  hey,
• 13:21
  we're right next to you.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_02: Just come on over.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_02: It's perfectly fine.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_02: So pure upside for them.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: But on the Singapore side as well, like who are the market participants?
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_02: Who comes to the majority of the trading volume on that exchange?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: Public institutions and extremely conservative institutions.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_02: And so,
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: I mean,
• 13:41
  there's a reason why there hasn't historically been a lot of
• 13:45
  technology companies
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_02: on these exchanges.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_02: So we're not really solving the primary roadblock in regards to
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: public markets being an exit pathway for technology startups.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's a step in the right direction, don't get me wrong.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_02: So I don't want to be full neg on this,
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: but I'm not 100% convinced that it's actually tackling the core issues.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: I don't disagree.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: But then there was this company that's called Affoin.
• 14:19
  They just participated in the dual listing back in September
• 14:24
  2025,
• 14:25
  just a couple of months ago.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was the first company to do this on both exchanges.
• 14:30
  And it showed that there was real issuer appetite and a working
• 14:34
  template for more formalized.
• 14:37
  Looking at a time frame,
• 14:38
  that could be the catalyst of how this all came about,
• 14:41
  right?
• 14:43
  like the exact timing and packaging caught people off guard but
• 14:47
  the direction of
• 14:47
  travel closer linkage to us markets and a more credible dual
• 14:51
  listing path could be
• 14:52
  you know building for years and i'm not surprised that they did
• 14:56
  it so again see
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: singapore just like i said they did it again i've been
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_02: One of the things,
• 15:04
  and I haven't had enough time to study the entirety of the ins
• 15:09
  and outs of this,
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: but I may be wrong in what I'm getting ready to say,
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_02: but
• 15:15
  SPEAKER_02: Historically,
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: if you're in the US,
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_02: you usually had what's called American Depository Receipts,
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_02: which is essentially a share of a foreign share,
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_02: let's call it.
• 15:30
  And these are basically like,
• 15:32
  think of it as like an escrow account,
• 15:34
  this sort of thing.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's like it's intended to replicate.
• 15:37
  and that this is the way historically that you could end up
• 15:40
  having your shares
• 15:42
  traded on the u.s exchange while listed listed elsewhere this
• 15:47
  kind of changes the
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: the scope of that because it changes the reconciling mechanisms from my
• 15:52
  understanding to where it actually ends up it making a pretty
• 15:57
  substantial leap
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_02: forward in regards to how the functioning
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_02: of price setting.
• 16:04
  So you do have potential benefits of being able to trade in
• 16:09
  Asian markets during Asian hours.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_02: When the U.S.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: market opens,
• 16:16
  you have immediate reconciliation with those trading prices to
• 16:20
  where you have a
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: little bit more
• 16:24
  dynamism in the way that the price setting ends up happening
• 16:29
  i'm curious of how the
• 16:30
  two-way street of that pricing ends up going if the liquidity
• 16:35
  falls off or how
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_02: would it end up being but nonetheless is it a step in the right direction
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_02: absolutely are there potential flaws that'll come out sure but
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: Is it worth trying to make the effort and then fixing it on the fly?
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: Just because this is kind of the first of its kind.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_02: We've had history of companies doing dual listings,
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_02: but doing the more rigid process of independent filings in each location.
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_02: I'm in the kind of let's wait and see how this falls out.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: I have some concerns.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not necessarily convinced this is panacea for it.
• 17:13
  There's some benefit of Singapore government backing,
• 17:16
  et cetera,
• 17:17
  et cetera.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: I love the aspect of limiting the amount of bureaucratic red tape,
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_02: filing lawyer fees,
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_02: audit fees,
• 17:27
  all of this nonsense that goes into public listings because
• 17:31
  it's a giant pain in
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: the backside in order to go through it.
• 17:35
  We'll see whether or not it actually truly creates a positive
• 17:39
  impact on liquidity
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_02: for a startup ecosystem.
• 17:51
  that's definitely one way to look at it and i mean it only
• 17:53
  started it only starts
• 17:55
  next year right so there's still time for them to hash things
• 17:59
  out or to smoothen
• 18:00
  their edges and whatnot so i agree with you i'm pretty much on
• 18:04
  a wait and see
• 18:05
  approach because again you talk about cost versus benefit
• 18:08
  analysis whereby how much
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: of an impact you are providing when you're listening
• 18:13
  or how much of an impact it is for the Singapore company or the
• 18:18
  C company to be listed on that.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it's 2025.
• 18:21
  All these things should be hashed out in terms of the paperwork
• 18:24
  and all that,
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_00: it should already be done with.
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_00: But I mean,
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: when it comes to financials,
• 18:29
  there is some amount of due diligence that is needed to be done
• 18:32
  because we don't
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: want to have that Silicon Valley Bank crisis again or that,
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_00: subprime financial crisis again.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: So...
• 18:40
  There still needs to be some prudent steps to be taken before
• 18:46
  everything comes into play.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: I also want to highlight there's a value parallel as well.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: When Silicon Valley startups scale, they assume a Nasdaq outcome.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_00: So it's not even a question.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's just the default path.
• 19:00
  Build,
• 19:00
  scale,
• 19:01
  IPO on Nasdaq,
• 19:02
  get acquired,
• 19:02
  or stay private with secondary liquidity.
• 19:05
  SPEAKER_00: The infrastructure is pretty much there.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: And in some ways,
• 19:09
  maybe Singapore is looking at that direction as well to be the
• 19:13
  Silicon Valley of
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Southeast Asia because C hasn't had that until now.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this dual listing changes things, right?
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like Singapore is positioning itself as a public market on-ramp.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: for the region's best growth companies.
• 19:26
  And if you're a VC writing Series B or Series C,
• 19:29
  this changed your exit narrative.
• 19:32
  You can finally tell founders we can take you to global capital
• 19:34
  without forcing you
• 19:35
  to leave the region because typically it's either you have to
• 19:39
  be in Singapore or be
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: in Delaware to get on Nasdaq,
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: right?
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, I guess with AvePoint,
• 19:48
  uh it's more of a template that other growth stage tech firms
• 19:53
  are watching this
• 19:54
  closely if you're a founder start thinking about singapore and
• 19:57
  nasdaq as a combined
• 19:58
  listing strategy not a far-off fantasy finally something um is
• 20:02
  coming to light uh
• 20:04
  especially in a fintech b2b says or infrastructure place where
• 20:07
  you're building a
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: region but need access to deeper capital pools if we see
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Your portfolio construction may just get more interesting.
• 20:15
  Late-stage companies that were previously too regional for US
• 20:18
  to exit now have a
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: viable dual path.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: And again,
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_00: as an investor,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: that changes how you underwrite follow-on rounds,
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: which brings us to our next shift.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this is where things get a bit more interesting,
• 20:32
  which is related to Singapore in some ways being the region's
• 20:36
  fintech hub.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: So the quick question is,
• 20:38
  when you see a headline like Southeast Asia fintech funding
• 20:42
  down 39% year on year,
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: what's your first reaction?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: So I would start worrying if I'm seeing the collapse.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:54
  Given where Singapore is right now,
• 20:56
  it's a regional tech hub,
• 20:58
  a fintech hub as well,
• 20:59
  right?
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: So,
• 21:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 21:01
  I first saw the transaction data and then the headline is
• 21:05
  technically true and a
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: bit,
• 21:07
  I wouldn't say completely misleading at the same time because
• 21:11
  fintech funding isn't
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_00: dying in Southeast Asia.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty much being concentrated in one pool.
• 21:17
  and no surprise who's the winner and the concentration game in
• 21:21
  a way that's a bit
• 21:23
  cool because let me give you the numbers because southeast asia
• 21:25
  fintech startups
• 21:26
  raised about 829 million in the first nine months of 2025
• 21:30
  basically a baby who was
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: born out of it it's
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, okay, I don't know how that related.
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: But anyway, it's down 39% year on year.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, but here's what the headline doesn't tell you.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Singapore captured about 84% of that funding.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: Singapore Business Review puts it as high as 88% for certain periods.
• 21:53
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty high.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's pretty high.
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, it...
• 21:59
  There's a little bit of nuance to it because like everyone has
• 22:03
  their hold co or top
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_00: co,
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_02: depending on which phrasing you prefer in Singapore.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_02: So when we see these funding rounds,
• 22:10
  a lot of it ends up capturing where the top entity that's
• 22:16
  receiving the funding is.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_02: But it is quite telling nonetheless,
• 22:21
  just because it's a very large percentage that is getting
• 22:26
  swallowed up by a single
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: country out of the region.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_02: That just so happens to be the smallest country.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I was just going to say that.
• 22:35
  But it's hard to separate the noise out of it because we don't
• 22:40
  know how much of
• 22:40
  that percent is actually just companies that have no base of
• 22:45
  operations in
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Singapore and are just raising in Singapore.
• 22:51
  And in some ways,
• 22:52
  it does tell us that the capital hasn't really disappeared.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_00: It's just become really selective.
• 22:58
  SPEAKER_00: For example, the mega rounds are still happening.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_00: Toons raised about $150 million Series D.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: Airwallet raised about $150 million Series F.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: And if you are seed stage in Manila or early stage in Jakarta,
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: good luck.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Again, it returns to how Singapore is as a nation.
• 23:18
  It's built so much on the black and white basis whereby even
• 23:21
  now moving forward,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, tech has always been in the play.
• 23:27
  And given that it's elevating its ranks in terms of being not
• 23:32
  only the financial
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: hub,
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: but being the fintech hub again in the region.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this is exactly what we've been talking about all season.
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_00: In our climate tech episode,
• 23:42
  we discussed about how capital intensive businesses need access
• 23:46
  to patient
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: long-term capital.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: This is one of it.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's a tough fundraising environment overall.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the ecosystem in Southeast Asia has been collapsing.
• 23:55
  SPEAKER_02: Most of that has been collapsing as the bubble in Indonesia has popped.
• 24:01
  SPEAKER_02: Certainly, if you're there, it's going to be a very challenging time.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_02: There's a little bit of a flight to safety, legal jurisdiction, etc.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_02: Singapore has been able to hold on.
• 24:12
  That's part of the reason why you see the larger percent share,
• 24:15
  just because...
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_02: Even though some of the other countries may not end up collapsing,
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: it's that a lot of the stuff that was going on in Indonesia just kind of
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_02: disappeared.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we ended up getting a little bit of a shift in regards to that.
• 24:31
  SPEAKER_02: Ecosystem has to go through a reset, though.
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_02: So while we're going through a tough time right now,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_02: We are going to end up coming out of it quite different.
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_02: Singapore inevitably is going to end up holding that sensor role.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_02: It is the capital sensor.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_02: It is basically the capital of the region.
• 24:50
  I think a lot of people would end up getting upset with me for
• 24:53
  saying that,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: but it is kind of from that perspective.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_02: And so inevitably there is a concentration of talent.
• 25:00
  There's a concentration of capital,
• 25:02
  you know,
• 25:02
  like that's it's it's the center of gravity.
• 25:06
  You can you can dislike that San Francisco is the center of
• 25:11
  startups in the US.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER_02: But Austin's pretty cool.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_02: Denver is pretty cool.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_02: New York, Boston.
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_02: Miami, there's tons of other places.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: You could talk about other places.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_02: You could talk about like Bangalore in India,
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_02: but you also have a lot of startup ecosystem going on in Delhi.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: You've got a startup ecosystem going on in Mumbai.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: We could say the same thing about China.
• 25:37
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah.
• 25:39
  It's an interesting dynamic that's going on in the region,
• 25:46
  the dominance of Singapore.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: Inevitably,
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's messy data,
• 25:50
  partially because of the holdco slash topco of these startups
• 25:57
  that are raising.
• 25:59
  Most of the companies that I invest in are actually legally
• 26:02
  domiciled in Singapore.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_02: And we're doing seed stage.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: So like...
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_02: Are those getting captured in the Singapore data?
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_02: Probably.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pretty sure they want it all to a certain extent.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to be surprised.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: I think even then, there is some geopolitical dimension here too, right?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: We won't go in too deep because that's a whole other episode.
• 26:30
  But this does tie into that Financial Times piece that I read
• 26:36
  some time ago.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: Like,
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_00: Can China win the innovation race?
• 26:40
  Because one of the core tensions in this article was that China
• 26:43
  has skill,
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_00: capital,
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: and ambition,
• 26:45
  but it's increasingly isolated from global capital flows and
• 26:49
  talent networks.
• 26:51
  And on top of that,
• 26:53
  the US-China tech decoupling is creating this vacuum as well.
• 26:59
  And then Singapore specifically is positioning itself as the
• 27:04
  answer to that tension.
• 27:05
  SPEAKER_00: Open, connected, neutral, but with enough skill and ambition to matter.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not against Singapore,
• 27:11
  but I'm just saying that Singapore is smart to be able to
• 27:14
  leverage on whatever
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_00: that's happening right now to its advantage.
• 27:18
  Because you're seeing biotech investments shift from China into
• 27:21
  Singapore.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: And according to Bain's APEC biotech report,
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Although China still dominates 75% of regional biotech flows since 2019,
• 27:31
  SPEAKER_00: the trade war,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: the tensions are diversifying capital into Singapore and South Korea.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: And given Singapore being a structurally strong country,
• 27:41
  SPEAKER_00: political neutrality,
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: strong IP protection,
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: legal transparency,
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: regulatory alignment,
• 27:49
  The government's $28 billion SGD research innovation enterprise
• 27:53
  2025 plan supports
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_00: deep tech and biomedical advancement.
• 27:57
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 27:57
  So flagship pioneering set up a regional hub with ASTAR and
• 28:01
  co-committed $100
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: million to advance biotech and health tech innovation in ASTAR.
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: See, Singapore is doing so much.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: She's doing so much.
• 28:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, 100%. 100%.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: If I ever guessed it by the numbers already, I guess so.
• 28:24
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just going to leave it as that.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to talk too much about Singapore now, but...
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: If you are a fintech founder outside Singapore,
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: you need a Singapore strategy,
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: not someday when we hit series B.
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_00: You got to do it now.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: like entity structure and all that,
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_00: whatever that you need to set up,
• 28:44
  start building that foundation early because by the time you
• 28:46
  need to raise a series
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: round,
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: it might be a bit too late to retrofit.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a seed stage investor, your job just got harder.
• 28:56
  You need to identify about 10 to 15% of companies that will
• 28:59
  make it to late stage
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: and help them build towards Singapore from day one.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's tough.
• 29:03
  SPEAKER_00: Moving on to the next last one.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's a question that I've been a bit, not obsessed, but curious more of.
• 29:10
  What does it actually take for a regional ecosystem to go from
• 29:14
  imaging to mature?
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Man, 10 o'clock doesn't do you well.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sorry, I'm not jumping all over.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_02: From emerging to mature,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_02: we basically need to complete the capital stack,
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_02: which means having capital at each layer from seed to series A,
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_02: all the way through the growth stages,
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_02: pre-IPO,
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_02: and then having exit pathways
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: and actual realizations happening, which is the public markets.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully this dual listing actually makes an impact of it.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_02: to be determined.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_02: But we also have M&A activity,
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: which unfortunately is trending down a little bit,
• 30:04
  SPEAKER_02: but still some positive signs going on there.
• 30:08
  So where all of this kind of ties together is that we're
• 30:12
  starting to see more of a
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: positive side.
• 30:15
  SPEAKER_02: We had this influx of capital.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: We had this bubble.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: It came at first.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_02: We're now reconciling ourselves with some of the indiscretions,
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: some of the challenges of the past,
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully,
• 30:28
  some of these moves on adjusting and improving Singapore as an
• 30:36
  IPO market and the
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_02: dual listing and some of these other steps.
• 30:39
  SPEAKER_02: Hopefully, all of this makes a move.
• 30:41
  We need stronger steps so that it acts as a signaling impact so
• 30:46
  that international
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: capital starts coming back in.
• 30:49
  SPEAKER_02: and starts filling out the ranks of the rest of the capital stock,
• 30:53
  SPEAKER_02: which it was starting to do before,
• 30:55
  but got scared off because of some of the challenges that many
• 31:00
  other markets had
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_02: faced as well,
• 31:01
  SPEAKER_02: but were particularly pronounced in Southeast Asia.
• 31:05
  So some positive signs,
• 31:08
  still a long way to go in regards to moving from emerging to
• 31:11
  mature.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_02: We're still in the emerging stage presently.
• 31:15
  SPEAKER_00: Let's zoom out for a second.
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_00: We have talked about this few shifts,
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: about the SGX,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: NASDAQ,
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: dual listing bridge,
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: giving late-stage companies a real exit path,
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: fintech funding consolidating into Singapore,
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: concentrating power in one hub,
• 31:31
  and then emerging to mature markets and what it takes to get to
• 31:37
  mature markets.
• 31:37
  So when you put those three pieces together,
• 31:40
  you get something that looks a lot
• 31:42
  in a way uh like silicon valley's playbook adapted for
• 31:46
  southeast asia for years
• 31:47
  we've been asking can southeast asia produce the next google
• 31:51
  the next facebook i
• 31:52
  think we've been asking the wrong question because the right
• 31:57
  question could
• 31:58
  potentially be can southeast asia build the systems that
• 32:02
  reliably produce category
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: defining companies and i think
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: So to anyone listening,
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_02: if you're building something right now,
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_02: whether you're pre-seed,
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_02: seed,
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_02: series A,
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_02: staring down the late stage rounds,
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_02: just remember game is changing.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Infrastructure is improving.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: The capital stock is improving.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_02: The market is improving.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_02: All we need is you.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ooh, that's motivating.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's one way to wrap it up.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's your job to add it in more.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: Your job is to build something real,
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: something durable,
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: something that solves a problem people actually have.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then Kim and Kevin can come out and talk about it.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: You give us a purpose to talk about it.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:49
  SPEAKER_02: Let these talking heads do what we're trying to do here.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you guys go out and do the work.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_02: We'll sit behind mics and start talking about it.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: How about that?
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, think about it.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: Think about the opportunities,
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: biotech migrating from China,
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: space infrastructure,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: ground stations,
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: climate tech,
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: AI compute.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: These are all pretty big 100 billion plus opportunities for the region.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So think about it.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Start doing the work.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's a game changer.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: And just remember,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: while you're working hard,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: you kind of need to be in touch with the region as well.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: So keep listening to us.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Keep listening to the talk case talking about you.
• 33:26
  And if you enjoyed this episode,
• 33:29
  share with the founder who needs to hear it.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_00: Leave us a review.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_00: Tell your friends.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: We are on all...
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_00: the podcast platform, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, whatever you name it.
• 33:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's the sea.
• 33:43
  SPEAKER_00: We are in the sea.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: Listen to the sea.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: Chop, chop.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_02: The sea of startups.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_02: Likes, you're sharing, all of that.
• 33:52
  SPEAKER_02: Pass it on to another founder that you know of.
• 33:55
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• 33:59
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• 34:02
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• 34:02
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• 34:04
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• 34:05
  SPEAKER_02: We'll bring you more episodes in the coming year.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_02: And have a good windup.
• 34:12
  Hopefully everyone keeps on grinding or at least get some
• 34:16
  resets of the mental space.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: I take a break too, you know, can't always be going on.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly, exactly.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_02: The calm before the storm of 26 in the sea of startups.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: And just one more thing.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: Got to stay curious, ambitious and keep building.
• 34:37
  SPEAKER_00: And last one.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: To keep in touch,
• 34:40
  head over to our Substack at theceofstartups.substack.com to
• 34:44
  get all the full
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: transcripts,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: show notes,
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: and all the citations.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: Just to stay afloat, to keep on going, that's where we are at.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: So we got to wrap up and Merry Christmas and have a happy New Year.