Latest / Pod Therapy / #385: Curved Penis, Patient Suicide, CBT Outdated

Transcript

#385: Curved Penis, Patient Suicide, CBT Outdated · Pod Therapy

0:00
Speaker 1: Jesus, no filler in mine?
0:01
Speaker 2: Then Wow, all killer about it.
0:16
Speaker 3: This is pot therapy, real people, real problems in real therapists.
0:19
Speaker 3: You can submit your questions anonymously at pod therapy dot
0:22
Speaker 3: nets or email us at pod therapy guys at gmail
0:25
Speaker 3: dot com. And now broadcasting from the Churn. That's Jim's
0:28
Speaker 3: that's Whitney.
0:29
Speaker 2: I'm Mick Tom Cruise on the No, you're not hitting that.
0:32
Speaker 1: No, here's my thing. Here's what stuck out to me
0:34
Speaker 1: in that scene. Is that Tom the whole movie, well, okay,
0:38
Speaker 1: not the whole movie, because in the beginning he's lacks
0:39
Speaker 1: a day's cool, but yeah for you good men. But
0:43
Speaker 1: then once he's serious about it, he's like so hard
0:45
Speaker 1: on himself. But then he just lets her get away
0:47
Speaker 1: with like a really big no no, like oh you
0:50
Speaker 1: just attack the judge or whatever verbally, and then he's like, no, no, no,
0:53
Speaker 1: it's fine, like you know, don't bother her about it,
0:56
Speaker 1: like you heard so much about your owners. Maybe it's
1:00
Speaker 1: just doesn't.
1:01
Speaker 2: It clearly indicate that he cares about her? It doesn't
1:05
Speaker 2: because in the.
1:06
Speaker 3: Movie he made a point when they were preparing for court.
1:09
Speaker 3: He's like he's like, whatever, you do. Don't show a reaction.
1:13
Speaker 3: Always just show that whatever happens is exactly what you
1:18
Speaker 3: thought was going to happen.
1:19
Speaker 2: Never have any reaction.
1:21
Speaker 3: Okay, so that's what he did, yes, and so he
1:26
Speaker 3: didn't react to it.
1:28
Speaker 2: Okay. Jacob's pulling up photos of Tom Cruise. Why does
1:31
Speaker 2: he look like he's getting tortured?
1:33
Speaker 3: Jacob, I don't remember that part of the movie.
1:35
Speaker 2: What kind of weird smutter are you putting up here
1:36
Speaker 2: on the screens. He's not got filler, it's just blood
1:42
Speaker 2: rushing current. Tom Cruise has got some filler. Current Tom
1:46
Speaker 2: Cruise is Oh man.
1:49
Speaker 3: They every year they do this thing where they're like,
1:53
Speaker 3: remember this actor in this movie. He is the same
1:56
Speaker 3: age in this movie.
1:58
Speaker 2: Right right. It's always really weird.
2:02
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, I think the last one I saw was
2:04
Speaker 3: Gene Hackman.
2:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, how is Tom Yeah yeah, it's him and
2:10
Speaker 2: Paul Rudd. That's the other one. It's like, Paul is
2:13
Speaker 2: eighty five years old. I think it's a little more natural. Yeah, no,
2:17
Speaker 2: I don't think Paul's cheating, but like, yeah.
2:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's honestly, Oh my gosh. And Jack Nicholson being
2:24
Speaker 1: like the current the major Colonel whatever, the person and
2:28
Speaker 1: he breaks down on the stand.
2:29
Speaker 2: Oh you know, you're rolling your eyes at this great
2:32
Speaker 2: cinematic masterpiece that you find unbelievable. Yeah, okay, Jack, Oh
2:38
Speaker 2: come on, he's a little bloated. Tom's a little bloody.
2:42
Speaker 2: He's looking a little puffy. Okay, and that's fine. He's
2:45
Speaker 2: like eighty.
2:48
Speaker 1: Whatever.
2:48
Speaker 3: This looks so good for let me ask you this
2:52
Speaker 3: a Battlefield Earth good movie or bad movie?
2:54
Speaker 2: Great movie?
2:55
Speaker 3: I rest my cakes.
2:56
Speaker 2: Great, We're done.
2:58
Speaker 3: That's the end of the conversation.
3:00
Speaker 2: John Travolta Forrest Whitaker.
3:04
Speaker 4: Did anybody email any questions that I love people's horrible
3:09
Speaker 4: mental issues?
3:11
Speaker 2: Battlefielder?
3:12
Speaker 4: You imputable about like any horrible things that happened.
3:17
Speaker 2: To their childhood?
3:19
Speaker 1: Jacobs very excited.
3:20
Speaker 2: They'll be fine.
3:22
Speaker 4: Jesus, I just can't do another show where we talk
3:24
Speaker 4: about Jim's bad movie.
3:26
Speaker 2: I need to hear discussion in the discord. And and
3:28
Speaker 2: here is my premise, those of you who are wondering
3:31
Speaker 2: what my stance is. My stance is Tom Cruise chastises
3:36
Speaker 2: his co counsul mister Pollock guy. And it's clearly got
3:40
Speaker 2: a little bit of an energy of like a little
3:43
Speaker 2: overly chastise.
3:46
Speaker 3: The dumb thing about this is even if you're right,
3:51
Speaker 3: it doesn't matter.
3:52
Speaker 2: It's fine. I just didn't like the plot device because
3:54
Speaker 2: it felt arbitrary because like their buddies the whole time
3:57
Speaker 2: they get along, and now all of a sudden, he's
3:59
Speaker 2: calling his buddy out in a way that's a no,
4:04
Speaker 2: no no. It's among dude friends. I think you can
4:08
Speaker 2: think about. Hold on, somebody's here. Hello, Oh oh, it's
4:11
Speaker 2: a messenger. Nobody gives a ship. God damn it, Jacob
4:15
Speaker 2: stepping on fine art.
4:16
Speaker 3: They have a thing though too. You're you're wrong about
4:18
Speaker 3: every part of this.
4:20
Speaker 2: They're not friend. Hold on, I gotta check the door.
4:22
Speaker 2: They're not friend.
4:23
Speaker 5: Yeah, nobody gives a ship.
4:25
Speaker 2: Jesus, this guy will not go away.
4:27
Speaker 1: Coworkership.
4:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he's being a weird coworker because he likes
4:32
Speaker 2: to mean more and it's weird. It's like if you
4:36
Speaker 2: secretly had a crush on which And then I was
4:39
Speaker 2: slightly critical as Whitney, and I was like, Whitney, that
4:41
Speaker 2: doesn't make any sense, and you're like, you don't over alone.
4:45
Speaker 2: She's trying her best, let it go, and I'm like, Jesus, dude,
4:48
Speaker 2: what are you doing Like it's clear you have feelings
4:50
Speaker 2: for her, and this is hold on, I got to
4:52
Speaker 2: get the door. Jesus Hello, what do you know about
4:54
Speaker 2: Tom Cruise? Yes, oh that's great. We love him on
5:00
Speaker 2: dot com slash therapy. Here the whole conversation and get
5:04
Speaker 2: my whole take on this. And I want to hear
5:06
Speaker 2: about this in the discord because people are gonna agree
5:08
Speaker 2: with me. I feel like I'm on the high ground
5:09
Speaker 2: on this, gonna be like.
5:10
Speaker 4: Look, bro, code it was weird, it was, I said,
5:13
Speaker 4: I sent a message of the discord this week.
5:15
Speaker 2: Oh, yes you did. The fans were thrilled. I don't
5:19
Speaker 2: remember what I said, but I remember I remember saying
5:21
Speaker 2: something in the discord. You jumped in and you had
5:23
Speaker 2: a comment, and all of a sudden, everybody lost their
5:27
Speaker 2: ship and they were like, oh my god, Jacob's here.
5:29
Speaker 2: And my immediate comment was two hours later, I was like,
5:32
Speaker 2: I promise you he doesn't remember sending this. I remember
5:36
Speaker 2: sending it. What I said. I gotta have right on that.
5:40
Speaker 2: You're not totally wrong, You're right, and thank you very
5:44
Speaker 2: partially partial credit. I'll take it. I'll take one of
5:48
Speaker 2: all that. Patreon dot com slash therapy. People are feeding
5:51
Speaker 2: the ponies for mental health months, which we appreciate. A
5:55
Speaker 2: patreon dot com slash therapy of a little store going
5:57
Speaker 2: on and almost says something to the pony each time.
6:00
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, she lets you know. Yeah, she lets the
6:02
Speaker 2: pony know. This was sent by Jacob. He wants you
6:05
Speaker 2: to have this carrot and the pony you can tell,
6:07
Speaker 2: appreciates yeah, and so that's well done. So ponies have
6:10
Speaker 2: had I don't know which pony gets fed. It's a
6:12
Speaker 2: little bit of both, but they've had ice cream at
6:14
Speaker 2: this point and carrots, I believe, watermelons on the way.
6:18
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6:28
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6:31
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6:34
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6:38
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6:41
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6:43
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6:46
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6:49
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6:52
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6:55
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7:01
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7:04
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7:08
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7:10
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7:12
Speaker 2: Great question, patroon dot com. Slash therapy is right there.
7:14
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7:16
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7:18
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7:19
Speaker 4: We'll actually if you if you have it in your
7:21
Speaker 4: heart to do that, that'd be great because we are
7:23
Speaker 4: out of free memberships to give away. Nick is actually
7:25
Speaker 4: claimed all of the other memberships. Yeah after buying sushi.
7:28
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7:33
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7:49
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7:53
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7:56
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8:02
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8:35
Speaker 4: So and if you support us on Patreon, you get
8:37
Speaker 4: access to our discord where I posted this week.
8:42
Speaker 2: Twenty two pairs of shoes. Yeah, and came out I
8:46
Speaker 2: think I said twenty two.
8:48
Speaker 4: You recounted, and then I went through and counted and
8:50
Speaker 4: I had twenty two pairs of shoes and then I
8:52
Speaker 4: found one more. Yeah, so it was twenty three, and
8:55
Speaker 4: since then I found another one.
8:56
Speaker 2: So, Whitney, last episode, you weren't here. Nick brought up
9:01
Speaker 2: his spring cleaning, going through his wardrobe, and we all
9:04
Speaker 2: started comparing notes on how many shirts we had, how
9:07
Speaker 2: many hats we had, how many pairs of shoes we had.
9:10
Speaker 2: It was more than you'd think, how many did It
9:13
Speaker 2: was not as more than you think, more than you think, yeah,
9:16
Speaker 2: it was, but they were trophies more than anything. Yeah,
9:20
Speaker 2: they're really just triumphant. Yeah. Yeah, it's like that around.
9:29
Speaker 1: It keeps me right.
9:32
Speaker 2: I'm curious because you know, obviously the representing female on
9:35
Speaker 2: the team here, we didn't get a chance to ask you.
9:38
Speaker 2: So if you had the ballpark, how many shoes you have?
9:41
Speaker 2: Pairs of shoes, pairs of shoes, individuals. We're not counting individuals.
9:45
Speaker 2: That's dumb. But if you had to think about it now,
9:48
Speaker 2: I think Jacob probably the most. I think you're pretty
9:50
Speaker 2: up there with twenty something. I was probably less than ten.
9:55
Speaker 2: I mean I had maybe five.
9:57
Speaker 5: I'll tell you what I had more than I realized.
9:58
Speaker 5: I had his boots.
9:59
Speaker 2: The boots. That's a weird thing to have more of
10:01
Speaker 2: than you think you do, you know, man, you think
10:03
Speaker 2: that it would be too many. But honestly, boots can
10:06
Speaker 2: be pretty versatile. Oh yeah, and I like them. Oh
10:08
Speaker 2: and I use all of them. And you're you're counting
10:10
Speaker 2: cowboy boots in that? Are you counting hiking boots in that? Okay?
10:13
Speaker 2: And dress boots.
10:14
Speaker 1: There's a lot.
10:18
Speaker 2: In your defense, that's a pretty versatile group. Nick had
10:22
Speaker 2: quite a few of everything.
10:23
Speaker 5: Mine from Australia.
10:24
Speaker 4: Just send me a new pair of Australian bootskay.
10:30
Speaker 5: I forget the brand of them, but they are great.
10:32
Speaker 2: They're made of kangaroo.
10:33
Speaker 5: They're not made of kangaroo. I believe they're out of Tasmania.
10:36
Speaker 2: They're made of Tasmanian devil. They're made of Tasmanian dove. Yes,
10:39
Speaker 2: of course.
10:40
Speaker 4: They are super comfy and super like a like nice quality.
10:44
Speaker 4: They spin like everybody in Australia wears these work boots
10:48
Speaker 4: to work in because because they're just wonderfu. So you
10:50
Speaker 4: are the hippus and they're very plain looking boots, but
10:54
Speaker 4: they are perfect.
10:56
Speaker 5: Yeah, they are so comfortable and they are just hardy.
10:59
Speaker 2: So Whitney, how many shoes are we talking?
11:01
Speaker 1: I would guess off the top of my head between
11:06
Speaker 1: thirty five to.
11:07
Speaker 2: Forty all right, God damn.
11:09
Speaker 1: And I don't feel like if.
11:12
Speaker 4: She had less than yeah, she's like, I don't know five, yeah,
11:15
Speaker 4: had twenty even Yeah, I know.
11:17
Speaker 1: I have a really hard time letting go of like
11:19
Speaker 1: good shoes that I have that I haven't worn in years.
11:22
Speaker 1: So I have like two really good sets of pairs
11:26
Speaker 1: of like heels that are open to They're like a
11:28
Speaker 1: little bit dated now, but they're really quality shoes now.
11:31
Speaker 1: I'm like, they're just going to come back around in
11:33
Speaker 1: another I have.
11:35
Speaker 4: I have one pair of dress shoes like that. They
11:37
Speaker 4: are a specific style of dress shoe that I didn't
11:40
Speaker 4: buy them.
11:41
Speaker 2: I think SJ bottom for me, and it's like zoot
11:44
Speaker 2: suit shoes, like they got that we white, nothing like that,
11:47
Speaker 2: just a style of shoes that was in style a
11:49
Speaker 2: few years ago, and uh, but they're super nice. They're
11:53
Speaker 2: super nice quality, A nice pair of.
11:55
Speaker 1: Shoes, and they're just good quality, Like I might wear
11:57
Speaker 1: them once in a blue Yeah, I mean.
11:58
Speaker 2: Why throw them out? Are the ones?
12:00
Speaker 4: They're a little bit longer and they've got the squared
12:01
Speaker 4: off toes.
12:02
Speaker 2: I like square toe. I like square toe was good,
12:05
Speaker 2: but these are these are lengthened a little bit. Just
12:08
Speaker 2: I just donated a pair of those.
12:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, because I like sprinkling.
12:12
Speaker 4: I remember when I got them for me. I was like,
12:14
Speaker 4: these are going to be out of style soon.
12:16
Speaker 2: What we'll do with them? They were? It was a
12:18
Speaker 2: very quick there's like Jim carry the mask shoes. I
12:22
Speaker 2: mean just long curl Yeah, that's it.
12:26
Speaker 1: Jump you know what I do?
12:28
Speaker 2: Shoes, got it, curl up with the toes.
12:31
Speaker 1: I have a pair of shoes from seventh grade. I
12:35
Speaker 1: still will they still fit you? Yes? Because girls stop growing.
12:39
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean not all women, but most
12:41
Speaker 1: women stop growing. I feel like by sixth or seventh grade. Yeah,
12:45
Speaker 1: they don't keep growing through.
12:46
Speaker 2: Do you know kick ass? That would be to still
12:48
Speaker 2: get to wear your shoes from fucking middle school?
12:50
Speaker 1: They are they're Doc Martin boots.
12:52
Speaker 2: Sonic tennis shoes and they are molded to my face.
12:56
Speaker 1: They're so comfy. They're the like made in England ones, right,
13:00
Speaker 1: and they were expensive. I remember they were over one
13:02
Speaker 1: hundred dollars, like what was that night? Like two thousands?
13:06
Speaker 2: Smart oh dots? Okay, yeah, not a good bird, Doc Martins.
13:11
Speaker 4: In high school, I don't I think I must have
13:13
Speaker 4: grown out of them because I don't think I would
13:14
Speaker 4: have gotten because middle school, you're not even long.
13:20
Speaker 2: Weird.
13:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I have those. I also had a pair
13:23
Speaker 1: of crocs from like high school still, but I the
13:26
Speaker 1: other day around when we were in high school, I
13:28
Speaker 1: don't remember them being they were and then they went
13:30
Speaker 1: out and now they're all back.
13:32
Speaker 2: They did have a weird like this is a.
13:34
Speaker 1: Joke and I know and that And ironically, y'all, the
13:37
Speaker 1: guy at the gym next to me, the teenager at
13:38
Speaker 1: the gym next to me, was working out in crocs
13:40
Speaker 1: and I've out lost.
13:41
Speaker 2: I'm on his team. Gym that does that?
13:45
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on this? Mental Come on.
13:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm just I'm not stuck up. That's not good fitness.
13:55
Speaker 2: Call you a lunk, all right, And we have an
13:57
Speaker 2: alarm for people like you all, I mean knowledgeable, no arm,
14:02
Speaker 2: We're not putting up with your bullshit. You need harder
14:05
Speaker 2: sole shoes.
14:06
Speaker 3: You can't lie because your foot is if your foot
14:10
Speaker 3: is like standing on a pillow, there's no stability ankle.
14:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not. But when Jim shows up and just.
14:18
Speaker 4: Wanders around the gym for a little while for that
14:24
Speaker 4: some water, what gym does, like to stray down the machines.
14:27
Speaker 1: A little bit like leg press. But he was like
14:31
Speaker 1: planking it to like clank clank, and his crocs. I
14:34
Speaker 1: was like, I am yeah, you.
14:37
Speaker 2: Guys, judgment all right, we don't know that bullshit and
14:39
Speaker 2: planet fitness, okay, we accept.
14:44
Speaker 3: Relax, you accept everybody except the people you call.
14:48
Speaker 2: Lunx the lux all right, the lungs are out. They
14:53
Speaker 2: except everyone accepting it is okay. It's a little ironic.
14:58
Speaker 2: It's ironic. It's a little obi wan kenobi, you know, like, yeah,
15:02
Speaker 2: you know, only the Sith deal in absolutes. But that
15:05
Speaker 2: was an absolute statement, so you know, a little off.
15:08
Speaker 2: But I'm you know what, I stay with my tribe, Danjamin.
15:11
Speaker 2: I'm not fucking around no tribe.
15:14
Speaker 5: There's a list of people that won't be allowed into
15:15
Speaker 5: plant fitness. Other people in the tribe are right up there,
15:18
Speaker 5: all of them.
15:19
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, Pajuin do comes lash the report US for
15:24
Speaker 2: Mental health month. Boy, do we appreciate it and feed
15:26
Speaker 2: the ponies while you're there? Why not? It's a great time.
15:29
Speaker 2: We will post the videos. It's a great opportunity and
15:32
Speaker 2: you get to watch ponies literally enjoy ice cream. That's lovely.
15:35
Speaker 2: Are we going to start the show, Well, let's do
15:36
Speaker 2: the show. We've got some great questions today, and the
15:39
Speaker 2: first one my boyfriend's body dysmorphia. Dear Whitney, Jim Nick
15:46
Speaker 2: and doctor Jacob Good evening, long time listener, First time
15:50
Speaker 2: question asker. I'm hoping you'll answer this one, even though
15:54
Speaker 2: it might be better suited to a pod therapy after dark episode.
15:59
Speaker 2: It is good. It is getting a little late here
16:01
Speaker 2: in Las Veiga. I think we should pour some whiskey
16:03
Speaker 2: and answer this question. I'm a woman in my late twenties.
16:06
Speaker 2: I've been with my boyfriend the lady I hate it.
16:14
Speaker 2: I remember the first time you ever did that, and
16:16
Speaker 2: then like I remember just laughing my ass off and
16:18
Speaker 2: then realizing, lady, like, oh that works on so many levels.
16:26
Speaker 2: I've been with my boyfriend to make it easy for everyone.
16:29
Speaker 2: I'll call him Reservoir for just over a year now,
16:33
Speaker 2: and I think he could be the one. He checks
16:36
Speaker 2: a lot of boxes that name. He holds water, he
16:40
Speaker 2: holds wire when I need it. He is kind and
16:44
Speaker 2: funny and emotionally intelligent. But there's one issue that he
16:48
Speaker 2: can't seem to get past, and I'm starting to wonder
16:52
Speaker 2: if it's deeper than just a mild insecurity. Reservoir is
16:56
Speaker 2: extremely ashamed of his body, and well, specifically, I'm referring
17:01
Speaker 2: to his penis. He has a natural curve, which to
17:05
Speaker 2: me seems completely normal and not a problem, but he
17:08
Speaker 2: talks about it as if he's burdened with this horrible deformity. Deformity,
17:14
Speaker 2: and he gets visibly anxious during sex and refuses to
17:17
Speaker 2: be seen naked with the lights on whenever possible. He
17:21
Speaker 2: even avoids certain positions because he's afraid I'll notice or
17:25
Speaker 2: be grossed out. It's a penis. I'm not grossed out.
17:28
Speaker 2: I mean, Jene, keep.
17:30
Speaker 5: Bringing the letter. Huh, keep reading the letter.
17:34
Speaker 2: Sorry, so sorry I was stepping away. You're right, and
17:36
Speaker 2: let me get back to what was actually written. Put
17:42
Speaker 2: that away. It's a penis. I'm not grossed out. I
17:45
Speaker 2: mean no more than any other penis I've ever seen,
17:49
Speaker 2: let's say, in my life. To make matters more complex,
17:52
Speaker 2: He's told me that when he was a teenager, his
17:55
Speaker 2: mom once walked in on him changing and made a
17:58
Speaker 2: hurtful comment about it, something alluding to it being bent
18:02
Speaker 2: and therefore he might be gay and not straight. He
18:06
Speaker 2: says he brushed it off at the time. Jesus Christ,
18:11
Speaker 2: I want to talk to this person's mother.
18:13
Speaker 1: I know that.
18:15
Speaker 2: Questions for your mother assignment. Let's discuss what did you
18:18
Speaker 2: think was gonna happen when, and just way to jump
18:22
Speaker 2: in on that and just go right for the balls,
18:24
Speaker 2: like yah, you're gay. He says he brushed it off
18:27
Speaker 2: at the time, but it clearly bothered him. I've tried
18:30
Speaker 2: suggesting that he talked to someone or look into counseling,
18:34
Speaker 2: but he flat out refuses. He won't consider medication, therapy
18:37
Speaker 2: or even reading articles that might help him gain perspective
18:41
Speaker 2: for fear of someone getting hold of his browser history.
18:45
Speaker 2: He insists that it's somehow his burden in life to carry,
18:49
Speaker 2: and that I'm only being nice out of pity. Honestly,
18:53
Speaker 2: I'm getting exhausted trying to convince him that I see
18:56
Speaker 2: absolutely nothing wrong with him. I wish he could see
18:59
Speaker 2: himself through my eyes. My questions are, could this be
19:03
Speaker 2: a form of body dysmorphia? How can I support him
19:07
Speaker 2: without pushing him further into a shame spiral and keep
19:12
Speaker 2: him from completely shutting down? Thinks signed not bent out
19:17
Speaker 2: of shape about it? But thank you well excellence. Yes
19:25
Speaker 2: we whitn't you go ahead?
19:26
Speaker 1: Yeah? My penis?
19:28
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, tell us about it?
19:32
Speaker 1: I know I hate this for you writer that is,
19:36
Speaker 1: and that mom, Oh my.
19:37
Speaker 2: God, that's weird. I think, I mean, your mom judging
19:42
Speaker 2: your penis at all? Yeah, I mean, I'm out the gay.
19:46
Speaker 2: I'm giving the mom a tad of the benefit of
19:49
Speaker 2: the doubt. And even with that, it's.
19:52
Speaker 4: Still not great, because the benefit of the doubt that
19:53
Speaker 4: I'm giving her is that she was probably making some
19:55
Speaker 4: kind of lame joke.
19:57
Speaker 2: Straight.
19:59
Speaker 4: She was being funny at the time, and was just
20:02
Speaker 4: an ill advised joke. That's honestly, that's best case scenario.
20:07
Speaker 1: I kind of even that, like, let's not comment on
20:11
Speaker 1: our children's parents genitalia, just leave it, you know, no
20:15
Speaker 1: need to do any of that.
20:16
Speaker 2: If anything.
20:16
Speaker 5: Just be like, hey, son, nice dick.
20:19
Speaker 2: That's what I was build my confidence. Mom, just look
20:25
Speaker 2: at him. Go whoa Jesus. Put that thing away, two hands, son,
20:29
Speaker 2: cover it with two on team.
20:31
Speaker 1: Don't comment on your kids, Okay.
20:32
Speaker 2: Maybe just don't say anything if you don't want to
20:37
Speaker 2: build them up, that's fine.
20:39
Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. But the body dysmorphia, it sounds like
20:45
Speaker 1: mm I mean, I guess I could fall into that category.
20:48
Speaker 1: But I see this maybe not so much as body dysmorphia.
20:51
Speaker 1: It's almost like a fixation, like I don't know, he's
20:55
Speaker 1: tying this to potentially self esteem, And it's interesting that
20:59
Speaker 1: you're having issues together with it when it's like I
21:04
Speaker 1: could imagine if I were a guy with a penis.
21:07
Speaker 1: You know, if you're sleeping with different women, then it's
21:11
Speaker 1: like a new experience of like, oh, no, are they
21:13
Speaker 1: gonna be weirded out? Like that would be going through
21:15
Speaker 1: your mind.
21:15
Speaker 2: Sure it is the first time they're seeing it, right,
21:17
Speaker 2: I don't know what to expect. I'm more ivag.
21:23
Speaker 1: But to kind of approach that with the same What
21:27
Speaker 1: I'm hearing is the same level of anxiety for almost
21:30
Speaker 1: every sexual encounter. That yeah, that rise in anxiety and
21:34
Speaker 1: worry about what your partner is going to think. That
21:37
Speaker 1: does sound exhausting for both parties, like for him and
21:41
Speaker 1: for you. I had just a fun little suggestion here.
21:45
Speaker 1: You know, I wonder if like this spot therapy after
21:51
Speaker 1: dark and go before it. I wonder if like introducing
21:55
Speaker 1: things like where maybe he's like blindfolded and he's not
21:59
Speaker 1: able to to worry about it kind of like just
22:03
Speaker 1: take that sense away and see what happens, like where
22:06
Speaker 1: he's not watching, or let's turn out the lights or whatever.
22:10
Speaker 1: It's more like, hey, this is still okay. You don't
22:13
Speaker 1: have to be worried about and excessively you know, hyper
22:17
Speaker 1: fixated on this situation. I don't know, but if he
22:21
Speaker 1: likes well.
22:23
Speaker 2: Clearly he's trying to hide it, and like I mean
22:25
Speaker 2: they're still having sex, but like it's and this is
22:29
Speaker 2: really tough, right, and like I think both genders would
22:32
Speaker 2: would you know, reflect on this and relate to it,
22:35
Speaker 2: you know, Like I'm sure there's been plenty of women
22:37
Speaker 2: who have said, hey, you know there's something about me
22:39
Speaker 2: that I'm not feeling confident about it.
22:41
Speaker 1: I want the lights totally insecure for sure.
22:43
Speaker 2: You know, all humans, I think is very relatable, and
22:46
Speaker 2: I think like it's it's tricky because I think, yes,
22:51
Speaker 2: women can feel this way about their genitals as well,
22:54
Speaker 2: but in the writer's husband's case or partner's case, that
22:58
Speaker 2: is really tricky because it's very conspicuous, you know, and
23:01
Speaker 2: there's something about this that's like there is a curvature,
23:04
Speaker 2: it's really obvious. It's it's something that like there's a
23:08
Speaker 2: lot of fear about will I be seen as somebody
23:11
Speaker 2: different or like broken in this way. And it's really
23:14
Speaker 2: tricky because like, this is something that I appreciate what
23:17
Speaker 2: the writers saying, where they're like, look, I honestly don't care.
23:20
Speaker 2: And as a man, I feel like this is an
23:22
Speaker 2: interesting dynamic. I feel like if you put this writer
23:25
Speaker 2: with a group of ten other women and she says
23:28
Speaker 2: to the other girls, I don't care, I'll bet you
23:31
Speaker 2: all ten of them are like, yeah, no, I get it.
23:32
Speaker 2: I bet you don't. I'll bet you really don't. I'll
23:35
Speaker 2: bet you're just not lying to us at all. I'll
23:37
Speaker 2: bet you you occasionally like, oh yeah, you probably get
23:40
Speaker 2: that looked at. But I don't give a shit, but
23:46
Speaker 2: you're about it. Don't care whatever I'm in the mood.
23:49
Speaker 2: Let's see this thing right now. I really am not scrutinizing.
23:52
Speaker 2: I think I put that dude in ten other dudes presence.
23:54
Speaker 2: We're like, no, she's lying to you, bro.
23:56
Speaker 3: Yeah, I do think that that men penises matter way
24:03
Speaker 3: more to us.
24:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, they don't any it turns out, and none of
24:07
Speaker 2: them are beautiful. I was like yours, yours is the
24:14
Speaker 2: glitter is very nice. The Prince alb the wi I
24:16
Speaker 2: love it. The Diana Ross.
24:24
Speaker 4: I thought your afro wig was a little culturally, it
24:27
Speaker 4: says I felt.
24:28
Speaker 2: But you moved on from that. That's all I got.
24:32
Speaker 1: You bring up that good point, because.
24:35
Speaker 2: Yes it's beautiful, it's plump and liberal. That's what I'm
24:42
Speaker 2: trying to say.
24:43
Speaker 1: But I feel like women are like this with like
24:46
Speaker 1: boobs too, because then I feel like, nine times out
24:49
Speaker 1: of ten least, what Reddit tells me is that they
24:50
Speaker 1: don't give a fuck.
24:51
Speaker 6: Like, hey, yummy.
24:55
Speaker 1: If we don't care, yeah ever looked away.
25:01
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't care about these. No, I'm super
25:05
Speaker 2: happy about this, Thank you for this.
25:07
Speaker 3: I'm just here.
25:09
Speaker 1: Women are over here like I need a boob job
25:12
Speaker 1: or I need that, Like you know, they are more
25:14
Speaker 1: fixated almost because of like other women.
25:17
Speaker 2: But I'm happy.
25:18
Speaker 4: I'm happy for anybody to go get surgery to to
25:21
Speaker 4: change their looks and improve them in their own if
25:24
Speaker 4: that's what you want to do, because it also makes
25:25
Speaker 4: them more likely to show those body parts to me.
25:28
Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah yeah, But they're like, that's whatever it takes.
25:32
Speaker 5: I'm like, this is this is great.
25:34
Speaker 2: If you need a surgery to feel more confident to
25:37
Speaker 2: show me your body parts, I'm happy about it. We
25:40
Speaker 2: should bring up that we have pot therapy beads that
25:42
Speaker 2: we will show at you if you yeah, well yes, yes,
25:49
Speaker 2: Panos does.
25:52
Speaker 4: Speaking of new merch stores, it's ment All Awareness Month.
25:57
Speaker 2: That's the sound that they may it. You pull them
25:59
Speaker 2: outshop dot com, git some pod'll be masturbait shops. Yeah.
26:06
Speaker 1: From like a guy's perspective, I mean what internally, because
26:10
Speaker 1: I think men's view of their own bodies isn't really
26:14
Speaker 1: like talked about our discussion.
26:15
Speaker 2: It is so tricky I think for men and like
26:17
Speaker 2: you know, being a man, but also talking to many men,
26:21
Speaker 2: what women want is mysterious and like it does vary
26:25
Speaker 2: so much woman to woman, Like what are they attracted to?
26:28
Speaker 2: What are they interested in? And it's also tricky because
26:31
Speaker 2: on one hand, we can say you can get a
26:33
Speaker 2: group of ten women together and ask them and they
26:34
Speaker 2: probably don't care. But like, this is also the gender
26:38
Speaker 2: that we associate with being very aware, and they're the
26:42
Speaker 2: ones who would notice, hey, you have two different color
26:45
Speaker 2: socks on. You know, like there's yeah, you're wearing two
26:49
Speaker 2: different color socks on, and so like there is this
26:52
Speaker 2: nervousness of like, but women also kind of notice everything,
26:56
Speaker 2: Like they will notice that there's one kitchen. Yeah, they
27:00
Speaker 2: will just notice it, and they're very scrutinizing of themselves.
27:03
Speaker 2: And then they'll assure you like no, no, no, no,
27:07
Speaker 2: with you, I really don't care, the lights are off,
27:10
Speaker 2: I'm in the mood. Let's really enjoy yourselves. But then
27:13
Speaker 2: there's this fear of like, but are you because and
27:16
Speaker 2: that's another component too, is like I think for a
27:18
Speaker 2: lot of men, you know, based on you know, I
27:20
Speaker 2: think conversations, there's this desire to be like, look, I
27:23
Speaker 2: know they can fake it. I know that they can
27:25
Speaker 2: just participate, but it's really important to me that this
27:28
Speaker 2: be a mutual thing and that you're enjoying this and
27:31
Speaker 2: that there's nothing off putting about me that I'm not
27:33
Speaker 2: aware of.
27:33
Speaker 3: There's a there's a lot of pressure I think on
27:36
Speaker 3: men to like ensure that your partner is satisfied.
27:42
Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, that's you gotta like that is huge, like
27:46
Speaker 2: you have to okay, you just really want to make
27:50
Speaker 2: sure she comes back. But you know this.
27:52
Speaker 3: Also this other thing too of like oh well, if
27:54
Speaker 3: she strays, it's because you couldn't satisfy her. There's there's
27:58
Speaker 3: that fear of being judged by other people. So there's
28:02
Speaker 3: like there's just a lot of pressure. And so I
28:04
Speaker 3: think when you have something like this where it's obviously
28:07
Speaker 3: really important to him, the challenge is is like he
28:11
Speaker 3: can hear you say a million times, Hey, it's not
28:13
Speaker 3: that big of a deal, and he's never going to
28:16
Speaker 3: believe it. It's because his mind this is really big.
28:20
Speaker 3: This is really too obvious. Yeah, it's too obvious.
28:23
Speaker 1: My I think my biggest thought or input on this
28:27
Speaker 1: and then I'll kind of let you guys finish up
28:31
Speaker 1: nice is.
28:36
Speaker 2: We'll give you some cab money. Whitney, I appreciate you.
28:42
Speaker 1: What Oh my gosh. Okay, okay, so my my biggest
28:53
Speaker 1: thought on this is that your husband has said he
28:56
Speaker 1: doesn't want to go to therapy. He doesn't really want
28:58
Speaker 1: to go seek external help either, looking up like information
29:02
Speaker 1: online for fear of the you know, websites getting tied
29:08
Speaker 1: back to him. My thing is what I've seen with
29:13
Speaker 1: couples or you know, being a woman in a relationship
29:17
Speaker 1: is going to him and saying, hey, look, I have
29:20
Speaker 1: told you so many times. I've mentioned to I literally
29:24
Speaker 1: don't give a shit about the curvature of your penis.
29:28
Speaker 1: Like everything's good on my end. I wish or I
29:31
Speaker 1: hope that you could trust me that I'm telling you
29:33
Speaker 1: the truth. It seems like you are still having some
29:37
Speaker 1: doubts and that is starting to affect me. And I
29:41
Speaker 1: think that our partners sometimes he's seeing it from his
29:45
Speaker 1: own perspective, as we mostly do. I think when we
29:48
Speaker 1: start to see it affect our partner, like that's his
29:50
Speaker 1: deepest fear, right, that he's affecting his partner right like
29:53
Speaker 1: by his curd penis. But really, if you're saying, hey,
29:57
Speaker 1: this is actually what's affecting me, I care a lot
29:59
Speaker 1: about I want us both to enjoy our sexual experiences together.
30:04
Speaker 1: And it seems like you're still self conscious about this,
30:08
Speaker 1: if not just for me, will you go seek help,
30:11
Speaker 1: like I know that, I don't know that.
30:13
Speaker 2: I So I'm with you one hundred percent on that.
30:16
Speaker 2: I think that that is of all the options available
30:19
Speaker 2: to the writer in this situation, I think that's one
30:22
Speaker 2: of the better ones, right, to just reassure and to
30:25
Speaker 2: be very clear.
30:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, I want to sound like manipula, like you have
30:28
Speaker 1: to go, But I mean, if you are.
30:29
Speaker 2: Feeling that bothers me is that you are bothered by
30:34
Speaker 2: it and it's distracting to you. Ironically, I think that
30:39
Speaker 2: when you have a partner who has confided in you
30:43
Speaker 2: or made it aware to you that there's something about
30:46
Speaker 2: their body that they're nervous about or that they feel
30:49
Speaker 2: insecure about. As much as it may seem superficial, I'm
30:53
Speaker 2: a big fan of trying to signal to them that
30:57
Speaker 2: you like that about them, that that's not off put.
31:00
Speaker 2: You know, Like if you're dating a girl and she's like, oh,
31:02
Speaker 2: I'm insecure, I'm curvier than these girls on TV or whatever.
31:06
Speaker 2: As a guy, the clear move is to find opportunities
31:09
Speaker 2: to celebrate the fact that you are more attracted to
31:12
Speaker 2: curvier actresses. Actually, what kind of that's my jam? Yeah, Like, oh,
31:17
Speaker 2: that makes you feel, well, I would never be into
31:19
Speaker 2: this kind of girl, Like that's not my jam at all.
31:21
Speaker 2: You're my type. And like you know, in the beginning,
31:24
Speaker 2: like oh, you don't mean that. You know, that's not
31:26
Speaker 2: the the global standard of beauty or whatever. But like
31:29
Speaker 2: over time, if you're consistent with that, I do think
31:32
Speaker 2: it sends this signal of like no, for real, like
31:34
Speaker 2: you are my type, and I do think that that
31:36
Speaker 2: signals confidence, and like over time helps them be like, look,
31:40
Speaker 2: I don't mind being sexy for you because I really
31:43
Speaker 2: do believe you that, like everything that I represent, that's
31:46
Speaker 2: your jam, Like you're happy about this. Also, I think
31:49
Speaker 2: like the behavior is matching.
31:50
Speaker 3: The words is right too, you know, like you know,
31:53
Speaker 3: from the writer's perspective, you know, if the writer is
31:55
Speaker 3: saying like over and over again, like you know, I
31:58
Speaker 3: don't care, doesn't bum me, I think it's perfectly fine.
32:02
Speaker 3: But then also the behaviors are well, I'm not gonna
32:04
Speaker 3: touch it.
32:04
Speaker 2: That's gross. Yeah, yeah, it's well. I don't know if
32:07
Speaker 2: you two the other gentleman you see it, you say,
32:10
Speaker 2: you go. I don't know if the other gentleman in
32:12
Speaker 2: the studio agree with me on this. But when and
32:15
Speaker 2: I appreciate Whitney's point. I think she's philosophically correct, but
32:18
Speaker 2: I'm thinking about like ground level application. If my woman
32:21
Speaker 2: was telling me, Hey, your penis doesn't bother me, so anyway,
32:25
Speaker 2: let's have sex. Okay, both of you get it right,
32:28
Speaker 2: Like immediately you get like this isn't working, Like I
32:31
Speaker 2: kind of need you to lie to me and be like,
32:33
Speaker 2: I am actually really into the fact that yours looks
32:37
Speaker 2: like this, Like, for whatever reason this works for me,
32:40
Speaker 2: I like you better. This is great. I know it
32:43
Speaker 2: hits me in a special place that nobody else can,
32:45
Speaker 2: like naked around me.
32:48
Speaker 4: I always know which direction north is there, it is, there,
32:52
Speaker 4: it is.
32:52
Speaker 5: It's great pointing there.
32:54
Speaker 2: Needs to almost be a celebration of it. It's if
32:57
Speaker 2: you just tell me this doesn't bother me, that's a
33:00
Speaker 2: turn off. Which way is Mecca? My dick always knows
33:05
Speaker 2: where the holy land is to pray. But like I
33:08
Speaker 2: would almost go the other way with it. Almost, well,
33:10
Speaker 2: not the other way, but I would I would say
33:11
Speaker 2: that like the direction it is, we're just turning left
33:15
Speaker 2: and left and left. I think there at some point
33:17
Speaker 2: needs to be like almost and I don't want to
33:20
Speaker 2: be deceitful, but like I would. I would if I
33:22
Speaker 2: were talking to the writer and I were her therapist,
33:24
Speaker 2: and as a male therapist, I was giving her male
33:26
Speaker 2: therapist advice and she was like, dude, what do I do?
33:29
Speaker 2: I've told him it doesn't bother me. If I were
33:32
Speaker 2: giving her a hot take from a man's brain, my
33:35
Speaker 2: hot take would be, I know you didn't mean any harm.
33:38
Speaker 2: I don't think you did any harm. I'll tell you
33:40
Speaker 2: that isn't going to turn me on. I'm still going
33:42
Speaker 2: to feel insecure.
33:43
Speaker 4: Well, I don't think you want to have that conversation
33:46
Speaker 4: like when you are like disrobing, definitely not then I
33:50
Speaker 4: would you want to have this conversation when you're not
33:51
Speaker 4: having I.
33:52
Speaker 2: Think that's part of it, Like you do want to
33:54
Speaker 2: signal to them, hey, to be clear and candid. This
33:56
Speaker 2: doesn't bother me. But I would almost go a little
33:58
Speaker 2: bit for It's like telling you your woman, Hey, I
34:00
Speaker 2: know you're a curvy. It doesn't bother me. M And
34:03
Speaker 2: she's like, great, you know you're tolerant, so you accept me.
34:08
Speaker 2: I accept you as you are. I just want you
34:10
Speaker 2: to know I know you don't look like this person
34:12
Speaker 2: on TV and I'm good with it. Now. I'm just
34:14
Speaker 2: gonna blow some raspberries into your side, titty me. So
34:18
Speaker 2: you know, a bitch, you got them all, didn't you.
34:25
Speaker 2: You gotta go the other way with it. You gotta
34:27
Speaker 2: be like, no, you know what, I know you're insecure
34:29
Speaker 2: about this. I am thrilled about it, and like you
34:31
Speaker 2: almost have to find another celebration of this of like
34:34
Speaker 2: you're curved a little bit, so what like it feels good,
34:38
Speaker 2: like at the end of the day, I don't look
34:40
Speaker 2: at this thing, I feel you and I love it
34:44
Speaker 2: and like that you've almost got to like give that.
34:46
Speaker 2: You know, does this make sense? I'm not talking out
34:48
Speaker 2: of my ass.
34:48
Speaker 1: Here, No, you're not.
34:49
Speaker 2: It's a real advice, right, Like this makes sense?
34:51
Speaker 1: No, it is. I honestly that that was my first thought,
34:55
Speaker 1: and I was, but I was thinking she had already
34:56
Speaker 1: kind of gone down that route, so I was going
34:58
Speaker 1: for part two. But when I you read it, you're right.
35:01
Speaker 1: She does mostly words put my.
35:02
Speaker 2: Brain in like the dude's perspective, and like I would
35:05
Speaker 2: need my woman to say more than just this doesn't
35:07
Speaker 2: bother me. I need her to somehow frame it as
35:10
Speaker 2: a positive and be like, look, you're insecure about this,
35:12
Speaker 2: but I love this. It's great for me.
35:14
Speaker 1: No, I think that. I think that especially men being
35:17
Speaker 1: words of affirmation typically.
35:19
Speaker 2: Yes it hurts. Let's let's talk about everyone drop their pants.
35:26
Speaker 2: Let's just let's just drop Jacobs up the holy ship.
35:31
Speaker 2: It's glowing, it's.
35:34
Speaker 5: Been running the show the whole time.
35:39
Speaker 1: It looks like Jacob's evil twin.
35:42
Speaker 2: It also has a beer.
35:44
Speaker 5: All right, I got I got some advice for you.
35:46
Speaker 4: Let's hear it, because I think I think the the
35:48
Speaker 4: hurdle here is that your your fellow doesn't want to
35:51
Speaker 4: do the therapy thing.
35:52
Speaker 2: You didn't want the.
35:53
Speaker 4: Help, sure, and so I think that tactics to try
35:56
Speaker 4: to kind of convince him that ith there is not
36:00
Speaker 4: only help to be had, but it's worth getting.
36:03
Speaker 2: Because I mean, that's the.
36:04
Speaker 4: The entire problems, as you were spelling it out for us,
36:07
Speaker 4: rider is in your husband's head, in both their regular
36:12
Speaker 4: head and their dickhead all the head.
36:14
Speaker 5: Yeah.
36:15
Speaker 4: So if that's where the the issue is, and I
36:19
Speaker 4: am saying now, assuming that your fella cares for you
36:25
Speaker 4: as much as you care for him, I'm betting I'm
36:29
Speaker 4: taking a bit of a leap here. But I'm betting
36:30
Speaker 4: that you are also not having as much sex as
36:33
Speaker 4: you would like to because of this.
36:35
Speaker 5: It's it's at least possible.
36:36
Speaker 4: That that your that your fella is not having sex
36:39
Speaker 4: with you at times that you would like to.
36:40
Speaker 2: Engage because of this. It's as much sex as he
36:43
Speaker 2: would like to.
36:46
Speaker 5: And I think that you can go down that hole
36:48
Speaker 5: with him a little bit.
36:49
Speaker 2: I think you can.
36:49
Speaker 4: I think you can say to him just very frankly, look,
36:52
Speaker 4: you know I have I've been I've really worked on this.
36:55
Speaker 4: I've really tried to make you realize that this is
37:00
Speaker 4: not a bother to me at all.
37:02
Speaker 5: I love your penis, I love you, I love all
37:04
Speaker 5: these things.
37:04
Speaker 4: I can say these things because people don't grab my
37:07
Speaker 4: voice and put it into drops to be used later
37:10
Speaker 4: on the show. So I can say things like I
37:12
Speaker 4: love your penis and I love you.
37:13
Speaker 2: God damn, somebody, please please.
37:15
Speaker 4: It doesn't matter if they pull it.
37:19
Speaker 2: It's like I can just yea.
37:22
Speaker 4: And so I think you can have that conversation with
37:24
Speaker 4: him and just say, you know, look, you know, I
37:26
Speaker 4: would like for us to be having more sex. I'd
37:28
Speaker 4: like for the sex to be less stressful, because this
37:31
Speaker 4: is introducing a modicle of stress to our sexual relationship
37:34
Speaker 4: as well. I don't like that, and I feel like
37:37
Speaker 4: this is really affecting things. And I would like for
37:40
Speaker 4: us to go to a couple's counselor, and I would
37:43
Speaker 4: like for us to speak frankly about this, frankly and
37:45
Speaker 4: beansley about this there it is, and really get to
37:47
Speaker 4: the bottom of it.
37:48
Speaker 2: I like that, get to the root the taint of
37:51
Speaker 2: the issue. I like that. Nick. What do you think
37:54
Speaker 2: about curve penises? I like the writer. I'm fine with
37:58
Speaker 2: them the either way. Okay, it doesn't bother you. No,
38:01
Speaker 2: it doesn't bother me at all. All right, it's all fair.
38:04
Speaker 2: I do want to take a beat because you know,
38:07
Speaker 2: something doesn't get talked about enough. But it does exist.
38:11
Speaker 2: So there is a an illness, I mean a disease
38:15
Speaker 2: called pyrenees. So pyrenees. Uh, there it is.
38:20
Speaker 5: I've also looked it up.
38:20
Speaker 1: There it is.
38:22
Speaker 2: It's pronounce or it's it's spelled.
38:25
Speaker 1: Yeah, there is.
38:28
Speaker 2: It's it's spelled p E y R O n i
38:32
Speaker 2: E disease. So it is a comm well, not extremely common,
38:37
Speaker 2: but it does exist, and it is the curved penis reality.
38:40
Speaker 2: And so if you're out there you know, gentlemen or
38:43
Speaker 2: women who love gentlemen, and your partner or you has
38:47
Speaker 2: a distinctly curved penis. Again, there's nothing wrong with that,
38:51
Speaker 2: there's nothing inappropriate about that. It doesn't mean you're in
38:54
Speaker 2: any danger medically. But there is a name sometimes for that,
38:58
Speaker 2: and it has to do with particular build ups of
39:01
Speaker 2: particular scar tissue that can exist in that organ. And
39:05
Speaker 2: there are many, many treatments.
39:07
Speaker 4: According to Cleveland Clinic dot org, by the way, about
39:09
Speaker 4: ten percent of men report having Prone's disease.
39:13
Speaker 2: And it's not you know, I'm sure you got it.
39:16
Speaker 2: I'm sure it's higher, rights, much higher than what I
39:20
Speaker 2: thought of. Yeah, it's gonna be bigger than that. I
39:23
Speaker 2: saw a commercial for there it is. I saw a
39:26
Speaker 2: commercial for it the other day and they were talking about, hey,
39:29
Speaker 2: you know, if you've got this, go to your urologists,
39:32
Speaker 2: start with your primary doctors. Yeah, addresses.
39:35
Speaker 4: I would look into it because it's clearly bothering him. Yeah,
39:39
Speaker 4: maybe maybe there's a treatment for it.
39:41
Speaker 2: Just just to p s a this a little bit,
39:44
Speaker 2: but you know, writers.
39:45
Speaker 4: And just looking at it here, by the way, some
39:47
Speaker 4: of the treatments are surgical, but there are there are
39:49
Speaker 4: quite a few treatments that are not surgical.
39:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, they just have addressing the tissue build up.
39:53
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's medicines, there's exercise, there's traction therapy.
39:57
Speaker 2: Uh.
39:57
Speaker 5: There there are injections.
39:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, uh, all kinds of things. And then a month
40:03
Speaker 2: Whindy will straighten him out. I mean she'll just get
40:05
Speaker 2: in there and she'll work it. Okay, there's a there's
40:08
Speaker 2: a Patreon level where Whitney just waltz us until.
40:11
Speaker 3: The problem get I get that he doesn't want it,
40:14
Speaker 3: like in his browser. Somebody needs to teach him about
40:17
Speaker 3: incognito mode.
40:19
Speaker 2: Oh, come on, get up the top right, the three dots.
40:22
Speaker 2: I like it talking about life. Have you ever seen
40:26
Speaker 2: the meme where it's the Google browser and the Google
40:30
Speaker 2: browser says the person, hey, what do you want to
40:31
Speaker 2: look up? And the person's like touching their fingertips together.
40:34
Speaker 2: I don't want to tell you, and then the browser
40:36
Speaker 2: holds up a sock puppet and it says incognito, mom,
40:39
Speaker 2: do you want to tell him? Yeah?
40:42
Speaker 1: Okay, didn't they have a breach?
40:46
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, the.
40:49
Speaker 5: Incognito it's just what they call it.
40:51
Speaker 2: It is Google for they're wasting a drop of data.
40:56
Speaker 1: Do you still believe.
40:58
Speaker 2: Yeah, pinky promise, we're so well.
41:01
Speaker 4: Also, your internet provider, like they still record all the ISPs.
41:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, writer, this is a great question. Use somebody
41:10
Speaker 2: else's phone.
41:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, go to the library.
41:12
Speaker 2: Yep, but there you go, right next to the kids
41:15
Speaker 2: playing Minecraft. Just look up women appreciate dot com science.
41:23
Speaker 2: I'm learning tags. Anyway, writer, appreciate this question. It is
41:28
Speaker 2: a good one, and it gives us a chance to
41:30
Speaker 2: really explore some of these aspects. But I mean, as
41:32
Speaker 2: far as you supporting your partner, I love what you're doing.
41:35
Speaker 2: I love the candor, I love the reinforcement. And it's
41:38
Speaker 2: tricky because yep, people are different, and you know, like
41:41
Speaker 2: I think a lot of women approach this in the
41:43
Speaker 2: way they would want to be approached with, like, you know,
41:46
Speaker 2: just straight up reassurance and just being told, hey, I
41:48
Speaker 2: love you as you are, you look great. But sometimes
41:51
Speaker 2: that's tricky for men because like, honestly, even saying that
41:54
Speaker 2: can feel disingenuous and so like we almost need to
41:57
Speaker 2: just be a cheerleader for us, be like here's why
41:59
Speaker 2: I love this, here's why it's great, and like, yeah,
42:03
Speaker 2: if you want to learn more about this biologically or
42:05
Speaker 2: talk to urologist. Sure, here's the name of something.
42:08
Speaker 4: There's a shockwave therapy that they can use, which is
42:11
Speaker 4: the use of sound waves to break down the scar tissue.
42:14
Speaker 2: Just put a bowse radio right next to your dick.
42:16
Speaker 2: It sounds right and just enough bass. That's all it takes, right, writer,
42:20
Speaker 2: Thank you for this question, Good luck to it, and
42:23
Speaker 2: enjoy that curve way as much as you are. We're
42:27
Speaker 2: gonna take quick break and when we come back, we're
42:30
Speaker 2: talking about losing a patient to suicide. You're listening to
42:34
Speaker 2: pod therapy right from Curve Dicks to straight Up.
42:38
Speaker 3: Today's episode is brought to you by Judy Schneider, Leon
42:41
Speaker 3: Carolyn Albert, Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, Mike Count, Darren Cunningham, Cody,
42:45
Speaker 3: the DeLorean Guy, Brady Malaychick, and Polly Gone. Would you
42:49
Speaker 3: like to sponsor the show? Become a therapy producer Patreon.
42:51
Speaker 2: Dot com slash. They're all right, okay, trivia, Well let's go.
42:57
Speaker 2: We'll go one at a time. What's the topic are
43:00
Speaker 2: we doing here? Here we go. Jim, you're first, Okay,
43:04
Speaker 2: what is the name of the marine who dies prompting
43:07
Speaker 2: the trial? And how did you have time to do this.
43:16
Speaker 2: Jesus Christ.
43:18
Speaker 1: He just.
43:20
Speaker 2: Are we allowed to go for options? No? God damn it.
43:24
Speaker 2: I want it to be Santiago. Is it something private? Okay?
43:29
Speaker 2: Well you just have a first name. Okay, are you
43:31
Speaker 2: gonna go? Fuck? You? Get the rank? First and last name,
43:37
Speaker 2: a middle initial. Jesus Christ, all right, give me. I
43:41
Speaker 2: don't know what his rank is. I think his last
43:43
Speaker 2: name was Santiago. Am I right? You're right? Give me
43:48
Speaker 2: them two points, bitches. I'll give you five points if
43:51
Speaker 2: you know the rank. Jesus Christ. Nope, it's marines, right,
43:58
Speaker 2: that's the branch of the military that is relevant, that matters,
44:01
Speaker 2: that doesn't. I mean I wanted to be private because
44:06
Speaker 2: he was Newish, right, But I'll bet you it's some
44:09
Speaker 2: caveat of like.
44:11
Speaker 5: Private first Just answered the fucking question.
44:13
Speaker 2: Do I lose the two I've already gained? No private?
44:17
Speaker 2: It is private first class, So no game.
44:22
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna know, all right, Whitney, what is the
44:24
Speaker 3: name of Jack Nicholson's character?
44:26
Speaker 2: Oh?
44:27
Speaker 1: I get guess. Oh my gosh, his character colonel.
44:33
Speaker 2: Oh, I don't know's it's up there. I think you're
44:35
Speaker 2: not wrong.
44:36
Speaker 1: It's probably colonel first class. Whatever, blah blah blah. Oh
44:39
Speaker 1: his name it is just.
44:41
Speaker 2: Colonel you just saw the movie.
44:43
Speaker 1: I know, but I don't know their names. Here's his
44:47
Speaker 1: name in that to start with an F.
44:52
Speaker 2: No, it's Gerald.
44:54
Speaker 1: I don't know it.
44:54
Speaker 2: Then Frankenstein for the steal, Jacob, he don't know it.
44:59
Speaker 2: I don't know it. It starts with an F though,
45:02
Speaker 2: Colonel Nathan r jessup. We need options, dude, all right, Jacob. Yeah,
45:12
Speaker 2: let's see what does Lieutenant Caffe frequently drink often seen
45:17
Speaker 2: in his hand during the film.
45:19
Speaker 5: I never once said that I knew a few good
45:21
Speaker 5: been really well.
45:22
Speaker 2: Now we find out coffee, no soda, no whiskey. No,
45:30
Speaker 2: thanks for the extra. I appreciate you. He mentioned it
45:34
Speaker 2: multiple times. Yeah, it's a whole thing, A nice fresco.
45:39
Speaker 2: Can I ask a clarifying question without disqualifying myself, is
45:42
Speaker 2: this character key for Sutherland? No, Lieutenant Caffe is Tom?
45:49
Speaker 1: I just said? Is that Tom Cruise's character said?
45:51
Speaker 2: Yes, Okay, I try not to listen to figure in
45:55
Speaker 2: one ear out of the Alkali water? What is he five?
46:01
Speaker 2: Or give me give me cold? No ship, It's going
46:06
Speaker 2: to be an ad It's gonna be come on, girl,
46:08
Speaker 2: you just watch this ship. He wasn't drinking anything. He
46:11
Speaker 2: was multiple.
46:14
Speaker 1: He's drinking multiple scene he was drunk on his bottle
46:17
Speaker 1: of that.
46:17
Speaker 2: I don't know it's gonna be an advertisement for a
46:20
Speaker 2: new generation. I'm not going to be a beer go with.
46:22
Speaker 1: PEPSI no coffee ship. I never saw you.
46:27
Speaker 3: It was on my phone and he mentions it too.
46:29
Speaker 3: He's like, when they set up meet up my house
46:32
Speaker 3: nine o'clock, all I got is you? Who is in coco?
46:37
Speaker 1: He says?
46:38
Speaker 2: You?
46:38
Speaker 1: Who there the cocoa pust?
46:39
Speaker 2: Why is this your weird kink movie? Like he's on
46:42
Speaker 2: every Saturday.
46:43
Speaker 3: I swear to god, I watch it every Saturday.
46:45
Speaker 1: I was trying to rewatch it last night with Peter
46:46
Speaker 1: because he's never seen I.
46:47
Speaker 2: Was like, we've never seen it.
46:49
Speaker 1: I know I hadn't either.
46:50
Speaker 2: Okay, you have seen clips of it.
46:53
Speaker 1: I never seen a single, Like, none of it looked
46:55
Speaker 1: familiar to me. Oh that's why when he says the line,
46:57
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, there's that line.
46:59
Speaker 2: That was like, we're proud of you for watching it.
47:01
Speaker 1: I watched Princess Bride on the way there.
47:03
Speaker 2: You've never seen Britain.
47:05
Speaker 1: Okay, thank God, give me trivia on that.
47:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've fuck got Princess Bride trivia next round. Let's
47:10
Speaker 2: go Princess Bride. I'll bet you were neck and neck
47:12
Speaker 2: the whole time. I'll bet you're will dust Jacob, I'll
47:17
Speaker 2: tell you that right now. He can't. What do we bet.
47:25
Speaker 4: You forget what happened when you said I want to
47:26
Speaker 4: go to that Disney trivia?
47:28
Speaker 2: That's right, you stumped on us. Oh that's right. Never mind,
47:31
Speaker 2: never doubt, Jacob, doctor Smith knows all you. Here we
47:37
Speaker 2: go into the deep dark stuff, losing a patient to suicide. Greetings, Whitney, Huey, Dewey,
47:43
Speaker 2: and Louis all right, trigger trigger warning having to do
47:49
Speaker 2: with suicide. Everybody has been warned. Here we go. I've
47:51
Speaker 2: written in the past you provided dumb feedback, and well
47:55
Speaker 2: I'm still not doing only fans as a side hustle yet. Anyways.
47:59
Speaker 2: I've been practicing as a licensed professional clinical counselor and
48:03
Speaker 2: therapist for less than a year, and usually I'm referred
48:07
Speaker 2: for clients who have substance abuse issues or personality disorders
48:11
Speaker 2: because I can handle their shit most days. I also
48:14
Speaker 2: find using humor and therapy useful with these populations because
48:17
Speaker 2: they can handle my sarcasm with compassion and respect. I
48:21
Speaker 2: counseled a client for two years who had an extensive
48:25
Speaker 2: criminal and drug history and struggled with dissociative identity disorder.
48:29
Speaker 2: But we got along pretty well. I was able to
48:33
Speaker 2: gauge his tolerance window to challenge him at times, and
48:36
Speaker 2: he appeared to handle it very well. If he wasn't
48:39
Speaker 2: would I just walked with him as he shared his
48:42
Speaker 2: struggles with me. After working with this individual for two years,
48:45
Speaker 2: I left the private practice to work inpatient therapy for
48:48
Speaker 2: substance abuse. Before my departure, I referred this client to
48:52
Speaker 2: another therapist I thought would be helpful to the individual.
48:55
Speaker 2: Long story short after being gone for one year, I
48:58
Speaker 2: heard that this individual patient committed suicide. I was aware
49:02
Speaker 2: that over my career I would lose clients due to
49:06
Speaker 2: the illness or other unseen circumstances, but I was not
49:10
Speaker 2: prepared for suicide, especially when I had high hopes for
49:14
Speaker 2: this client who I cared for but basically abandoned him
49:19
Speaker 2: when I could have stayed and helped longer. I was
49:22
Speaker 2: so angry and overcome with sadness. I would cry at
49:26
Speaker 2: times for weeks after I learned of his passing. Looking back,
49:30
Speaker 2: I would have referred him to another provider, or perhaps
49:33
Speaker 2: continued to work in private practice with him and possibly
49:38
Speaker 2: few clients until I believed that they were stable. I
49:42
Speaker 2: do wonder if he felt I abandoned him. The thought
49:45
Speaker 2: that he felt so alone does haunt me still, when
49:49
Speaker 2: in reality he was and will be one of the
49:53
Speaker 2: special clients that I respected and enjoyed working with. But
49:57
Speaker 2: he never knew that any insight and outright dumbass criticism
50:02
Speaker 2: would be appreciated. Sincerely, fuck myself backwards in twice sideways.
50:09
Speaker 2: Thanks for the signature.
50:12
Speaker 3: So this is interesting because we've all probably dealt with this,
50:20
Speaker 3: and it's one of those things I think as a therapist,
50:24
Speaker 3: the job is incredibly difficult, and you're dealing with human beings,
50:29
Speaker 3: and human beings are fallible, and we are fallible as therapists,
50:34
Speaker 3: and it's really behavior change is like the hardest thing
50:38
Speaker 3: in the world to initiate and then maintain, and to
50:42
Speaker 3: do this line of work, you kind of have to
50:45
Speaker 3: believe that you can make a difference. Otherwise you don't
50:48
Speaker 3: do this work, you burn out right, So you believe
50:52
Speaker 3: that you can make a difference. But then there's this
50:56
Speaker 3: other side to this too, which is then some time
51:00
Speaker 3: you think you have more influence than you really do.
51:03
Speaker 3: Good point, and you kind of have to take both
51:05
Speaker 3: of those together. It's really hard to say I can
51:09
Speaker 3: make a difference. I can help these people but then
51:13
Speaker 3: not feel responsible when things don't work out. But you
51:18
Speaker 3: can't go completely the other way either, you know, And
51:20
Speaker 3: so it's it's a balance. But I do think, yeah,
51:25
Speaker 3: it's just it's it's really difficult. I don't think that
51:28
Speaker 3: I think you're in a position like most of us
51:30
Speaker 3: are when this happens, where you second guess everything that
51:33
Speaker 3: you've ever done. In reality, I don't think it would
51:38
Speaker 3: have made a difference.
51:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm so sorry that you went through this. I mean,
51:43
Speaker 1: it is something that is one of my biggest fears
51:46
Speaker 1: as a clinician. It's just you're kind of it's not if,
51:49
Speaker 1: but when you know you're working with people struggling with
51:53
Speaker 1: all kinds of mental health diagnoses and disorders, and this
51:57
Speaker 1: person you named a few that are pretty like pretty yes, yes, exactly,
52:02
Speaker 1: like substance use, criminality, d I d oh, my gosh,
52:05
Speaker 1: you're these are high risk areas absolutely, and not to
52:10
Speaker 1: say we should assume they will go down that route,
52:12
Speaker 1: but high risk, higher risk for sure. So I think, yeah,
52:17
Speaker 1: Nex's kind of right. I think sometimes as therapists we
52:20
Speaker 1: get into a mode or maybe this was just me,
52:23
Speaker 1: where you almost like have to avoid this lane of
52:27
Speaker 1: trying to fix, like our job is to fix this person,
52:31
Speaker 1: and like we have I guess, like Nick said, we
52:33
Speaker 1: have so much more control over their situation when an actuality,
52:38
Speaker 1: we don't. They're in control, they know the most about them.
52:40
Speaker 1: We're here to guide, to walk next to them, to
52:43
Speaker 1: be their support when they need it. But yeah, I
52:47
Speaker 1: think sometimes we over credit our ability to like have
52:52
Speaker 1: a huge effect on their lives, you know.
52:55
Speaker 2: Well, and that's what's tough about this is, like, I mean,
52:57
Speaker 2: it's one thing if you have a patient who has
53:00
Speaker 2: let's say you work in an aspect of health care
53:02
Speaker 2: like oncology, right, and like, Okay, you look at this
53:05
Speaker 2: and it's like, oh goodness, this is a stage four
53:07
Speaker 2: extremely severe or very unlikely of success kind of patient.
53:11
Speaker 2: I'm going to throw the best available treatments at them,
53:13
Speaker 2: but like I can accept that I'm probably not going
53:16
Speaker 2: to win. And then of course, you know, Okay, this
53:18
Speaker 2: didn't work out, the patient passes away. A person in
53:22
Speaker 2: that position questions some of their decisions because I think, well,
53:25
Speaker 2: I went with this one because as a fifty one
53:26
Speaker 2: percent likelihood versus this other one that had a forty
53:29
Speaker 2: nine percent likelihood. I wonder if that forty nine would
53:33
Speaker 2: have been better. But they're able to look at it
53:34
Speaker 2: and say, I followed best practices, right, and like, I
53:37
Speaker 2: did the best and I did what most other doctors
53:40
Speaker 2: in that situation would have been in In mental health,
53:42
Speaker 2: there are an infinity of variables, right, so many and
53:47
Speaker 2: so like, even if we don't change, like providers and
53:50
Speaker 2: we're like, oh, what could I have done or said differently?
53:53
Speaker 2: You know? Or just oh, I said, like this therapist
53:58
Speaker 2: sent their patient to a different really did all the
54:01
Speaker 2: right things, you know, like yep, you handed this person off.
54:04
Speaker 1: You had a discharge after care.
54:05
Speaker 2: Absolutely you did nothing wrong by moving on to a
54:08
Speaker 2: different level of care. We change jobs. It's a very
54:12
Speaker 2: common thing. By some measures. Therapists change roles every two
54:16
Speaker 2: years on average. When you look at the entire profession,
54:19
Speaker 2: So like, yeah, you moved to a different level of care,
54:22
Speaker 2: you moved to a different demographic. It would have been
54:24
Speaker 2: inappropriate for you to continue to try to treat that person,
54:27
Speaker 2: knowing that like the majority of your energy was focused
54:29
Speaker 2: somewhere else, you responsibly handed them off to another professional.
54:34
Speaker 2: And yeah, we always ask ourselves, oh well, I mean
54:36
Speaker 2: I was a good fit for that person. Maybe that
54:38
Speaker 2: handoff wasn't a good fit. Sure, Like the first therapist
54:43
Speaker 2: is always the best fit, right, Like I've handed Patience
54:46
Speaker 2: to Whitney before, you know, and like sure, like if
54:49
Speaker 2: they had stayed with me and I felt like I
54:50
Speaker 2: could to fit them forever, great, But there was a
54:52
Speaker 2: reason I need to hand them off, you know, there's
54:54
Speaker 2: something else going on, And like sure, you know, like
54:57
Speaker 2: we're gonna have different roles in their lives and meet
54:59
Speaker 2: them at different chapter of their lives too. There's nothing
55:02
Speaker 2: about that that's inappropriate, Like that is the correct move,
55:05
Speaker 2: that is best practices, And the infinity of variables makes
55:09
Speaker 2: it so difficult to predict when this person's going to decompensate.
55:13
Speaker 2: And that's a whole other aspect of this. You probably
55:16
Speaker 2: and the therapist probably had nothing to do with it.
55:19
Speaker 2: They probably woke up one day and went through a
55:21
Speaker 2: very hard day, and then a very hard week, and
55:23
Speaker 2: then a very hard month. And maybe lost track of
55:25
Speaker 2: their medication and stopped talking to their psychiatrists, and like
55:29
Speaker 2: so many other variables and encountered all sorts of other
55:32
Speaker 2: environmental struggle.
55:33
Speaker 1: I was going to say environmental, Yeah.
55:35
Speaker 2: That probably just added more to the weight of this thing.
55:38
Speaker 2: And it can't just be on one person's shoulders. Yeah,
55:42
Speaker 2: it's too complicated for that.
55:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah, it's really difficult to manage. And how
55:49
Speaker 1: I would even suggest. I mean, if you feel so inclined,
55:53
Speaker 1: like you seeking maybe therapy temporary.
55:56
Speaker 2: You got to work on yourself, like go see.
55:57
Speaker 1: A grief counselor even just for a few sessions to
56:01
Speaker 1: kind of process, because that is a unique scenario.
56:04
Speaker 2: It is several years ago. And I've mentioned this before
56:08
Speaker 2: on the show, but like if you go into our patreon,
56:11
Speaker 2: we have a directory when you first sign up at
56:13
Speaker 2: patreon dot com slash therapy. This is not a plug,
56:15
Speaker 2: this is just reference. There's a page at the front
56:18
Speaker 2: that says start here, and it's a full linked library
56:23
Speaker 2: to all the different interviews we've ever done, all the
56:26
Speaker 2: book reports, all the news, all the rants, just to
56:28
Speaker 2: kind of put it all in front of you because
56:30
Speaker 2: we realize, like if you just scroll through this giant
56:33
Speaker 2: feed and you try to search by keywords or whatever,
56:36
Speaker 2: like you, I don't know, it could be difficult to navigate.
56:37
Speaker 2: We've never really tried to, so we just put it
56:39
Speaker 2: all there as a face page. Somewhere in there is
56:42
Speaker 2: probably a selection of Jim's journals. And I had a
56:46
Speaker 2: patient die by suicide right before the pandemic, so this
56:52
Speaker 2: was probably late twenty nineteen early twenty twenty, and right
56:57
Speaker 2: after it happened that night, I drove home and decided
57:04
Speaker 2: on my half hour drive home to just turn on
57:08
Speaker 2: the microphone on my phone and just record my honest
57:14
Speaker 2: reaction to just learning that my patient had died by suicide.
57:19
Speaker 2: It was very raw, it was very real. I've considered
57:22
Speaker 2: deleting it eight thousand times since initially recording it, but
57:27
Speaker 2: I've decided to leave it because over the years, I've
57:30
Speaker 2: had dozens of students and colleagues reach out to me
57:35
Speaker 2: and say, dude, I needed that because there's no textbook
57:39
Speaker 2: on this, like, we don't know what this is like.
57:42
Speaker 2: And getting to witness a colleague hot take react to
57:47
Speaker 2: what this was like for them was really really important
57:51
Speaker 2: for me, and it gave me what I needed, or
57:54
Speaker 2: at least exposed me to what I can expect so
57:56
Speaker 2: that when this happens to me, I'll be ready for it.
58:00
Speaker 2: That out there, and writer, I just I point you
58:03
Speaker 2: to that, because I think we all relate to you.
58:06
Speaker 2: We have all lost patients by suicide or overdose or
58:10
Speaker 2: parts of the behavioral health ecosystem that we are designed
58:14
Speaker 2: to treat and we're trying to fight against. And I
58:17
Speaker 2: think it underlines how important mental health is. A lot
58:20
Speaker 2: of people reduce what we do down to just being
58:24
Speaker 2: happy at work or getting over things from your childhood,
58:28
Speaker 2: and like, yeah, that's all super relevant. I'm very excited
58:31
Speaker 2: to help you be happy at work. I'm very excited
58:33
Speaker 2: to help you optimize your life and get through things
58:35
Speaker 2: from childhood. That matters to me a lot. But we
58:38
Speaker 2: are also the tip of the healthcare spear on a
58:40
Speaker 2: lot of issues that have to do with like overdosing
58:43
Speaker 2: and death of despair and self medicating and suicide and
58:48
Speaker 2: all these other really pression issues. And it's letters like
58:51
Speaker 2: this that I think highlight this fact that, especially in
58:53
Speaker 2: Mental Health Awareness Month, how important this shit is and
58:57
Speaker 2: how high level it is, and how hard it is
59:00
Speaker 2: to work with even when you're doing everything right, here's
59:04
Speaker 2: this therapist saying I was winning. I left this person
59:07
Speaker 2: in a great place, I warm handed them off to
59:10
Speaker 2: another great therapist, and eventually things came on glued. And
59:14
Speaker 2: it just goes to show you the infinity of variables
59:17
Speaker 2: and why mental health matters, and why it's something you
59:19
Speaker 2: have to be grounded in every day, even whenever you're
59:23
Speaker 2: doing everything right, because you don't know if this is
59:26
Speaker 2: going to be something that just comes on glued one day.
59:28
Speaker 1: Yeah.
59:29
Speaker 2: So, I mean, writer, I think we all agree that
59:31
Speaker 2: you handled this about as best as any of us
59:33
Speaker 2: could have asked you to. I mean, I appreciate your reflection.
59:36
Speaker 2: I appreciate you being honest and candid about this. I
59:39
Speaker 2: think other listeners of the show need to hear about this.
59:42
Speaker 2: There's patients out there right now that have had these
59:44
Speaker 2: dark thoughts and they need to hear from a therapist
59:47
Speaker 2: who gives an honest take of like this breaks our
59:50
Speaker 2: fucking heart's asshole. Like you know, and I've told patients before, listen, fucker,
59:57
Speaker 2: you better not kill yourself because I can't handle. I
1:00:00
Speaker 2: am a fragile little flower and you're gonna fuck me
1:00:03
Speaker 2: up real good. And they're like, well, I like you
1:00:05
Speaker 2: a lot, Jim, Like I don't like myself at all,
1:00:07
Speaker 2: Like I don't think I should be alive, but I
1:00:09
Speaker 2: don't want to ruin your shit. And I'm like, you
1:00:10
Speaker 2: will ruin my shit.
1:00:12
Speaker 6: Yes, I will not be okay, Like I will be
1:00:14
Speaker 6: a fucking mess and like I have a lot of
1:00:16
Speaker 6: work to do, Dick, you know, Like, so if you
1:00:19
Speaker 6: care about my other patients and making things work in
1:00:21
Speaker 6: my world and my kids and me going to shit,
1:00:23
Speaker 6: don't kill yourself, Dick, go to the psych hospital, Like,
1:00:26
Speaker 6: go eat Tello for three days and set a fucking
1:00:28
Speaker 6: gym up for years, like go do the right thing.
1:00:31
Speaker 6: So Jim, it is about Jim, goddamn it. So like
1:00:34
Speaker 6: people need to hear these messages. And I think other
1:00:36
Speaker 6: colleagues need to hear messages like this too. But writer,
1:00:39
Speaker 6: I mean, I don't think we're gonna armchair quarterback you
1:00:42
Speaker 6: on Saturday morning and tell you did something wrong. I
1:00:45
Speaker 6: think we look at you and think, look, you did
1:00:47
Speaker 6: everything correct. I think you did all the right moves.
1:00:50
Speaker 6: And I think Whitney's right, Like you're gonna go through
1:00:52
Speaker 6: a grieving process for me the way that I coped
1:00:54
Speaker 6: with this, and I've lost over my entire career, you know,
1:00:58
Speaker 6: a handful of clients two different variations of either overdose
1:01:02
Speaker 6: or suicide, and I consider overdose of form of suicide
1:01:04
Speaker 6: in a lot of cases. The way that we grow
1:01:07
Speaker 6: from this, the way that we get better, the way
1:01:09
Speaker 6: that we heal from this, he is sometimes by talking
1:01:13
Speaker 6: to our own therapist and working through it ourselves, and
1:01:16
Speaker 6: it's sometimes by sitting down with colleagues and just commiserating.
1:01:19
Speaker 6: I mean, Nick's talked me through some of the darkest
1:01:21
Speaker 6: moments of my career, you know, And I'll tell him,
1:01:24
Speaker 6: here's what I did, and I'll lay out all the cards,
1:01:26
Speaker 6: and I think the first thing I'm looking for is
1:01:28
Speaker 6: to make sure I didn't fuck up, you know. And
1:01:31
Speaker 6: he'll usually analyze it with me, and if he has notes,
1:01:33
Speaker 6: he's gentle about it, you know, and he knows that
1:01:36
Speaker 6: I'm sensitive in those moments, and so he won't tell
1:01:38
Speaker 6: me his notes up front. He'll usually start with, hey, man,
1:01:41
Speaker 6: first read on this thing. You did pretty much what
1:01:44
Speaker 6: I would want you to do. You know, you stayed
1:01:46
Speaker 6: in the tradition. It was fine, you did your best
1:01:49
Speaker 6: part in this. There's odds and ends that I think
1:01:51
Speaker 6: I have some notes on but nothing here that's crucial.
1:01:54
Speaker 6: And then we just talked through it, and a lot
1:01:56
Speaker 6: of times he would just pivot and just be like, Jim,
1:01:58
Speaker 6: how are you man? You know like this, Yeah, I
1:02:00
Speaker 6: know you love your patients. I know you're trying your best.
1:02:03
Speaker 6: Talk to me about what you're feeling here and sometimes
1:02:05
Speaker 6: just offloading that shit and just talking to a colleague
1:02:07
Speaker 6: about it. And it's a tough career, right and you know, writer,
1:02:10
Speaker 6: you know you relate to this. It is an independent career.
1:02:13
Speaker 6: We don't do a lot of collaboration. We don't get
1:02:16
Speaker 6: to talk to our friends a lot. We go to
1:02:18
Speaker 6: our little room, we talk to our patient, we come out,
1:02:20
Speaker 6: we hand them off at the office, we get the.
1:02:22
Speaker 2: Next one, we go back in. We don't get a
1:02:24
Speaker 2: lot of collaboration. Some We've had a lot of people
1:02:27
Speaker 2: over the years that listen to the show because it
1:02:29
Speaker 2: makes them feel like they have colleagues that they can
1:02:32
Speaker 2: talk to and they're hearing our thoughts, hearing our reflections,
1:02:35
Speaker 2: and it gives them a sense of normality that's really
1:02:38
Speaker 2: important to them. So I just actually difficult for people
1:02:40
Speaker 2: in private practice. Oh, it's so individual because if.
1:02:43
Speaker 3: You got you know, like if you're part of a
1:02:46
Speaker 3: team and you've got people that you can talk to,
1:02:48
Speaker 3: then it's a lot easier. But yeah, when you're a
1:02:51
Speaker 3: therapist and priority or.
1:02:52
Speaker 2: To rehab, things like that, programs help. But writer, if
1:02:55
Speaker 2: this happened, you know in a way that doesn't give
1:02:57
Speaker 2: you access to other people to check in and get feedback.
1:03:00
Speaker 2: I really just strongly encourage you, you know, reach out
1:03:03
Speaker 2: to colleagues in the hallway, do your best to just
1:03:05
Speaker 2: join a group, a discussion group. There's always something on
1:03:08
Speaker 2: social media among therapists. You need that, you know. The
1:03:12
Speaker 2: only way that I've gotten through that in my career
1:03:15
Speaker 2: is just talking to other professionals. And at the end
1:03:17
Speaker 2: of the day, if you're the kind of professional that
1:03:19
Speaker 2: is destroyed by this, it breaks your heart. I'm not
1:03:22
Speaker 2: worried you did anything wrong. That is the nature of
1:03:26
Speaker 2: our work. Oncology doesn't think they did everything wrong. When
1:03:30
Speaker 2: patients die of a disease, other healthcare providers recognize it
1:03:34
Speaker 2: is us versus death. Every day in mental health care.
1:03:38
Speaker 2: Sometimes we lose track of that because we think it's
1:03:40
Speaker 2: us versus suffering, it's us versus sadness. It's us versus
1:03:44
Speaker 2: a non optimized life or a lack of awareness, and
1:03:49
Speaker 2: I don't think that's it. I think it's us versus death.
1:03:52
Speaker 2: Some patients are many, many many paces away from death,
1:03:55
Speaker 2: and some patients are hanging over that cliff, and so
1:03:58
Speaker 2: we need to keep that in mind, and we need
1:04:00
Speaker 2: to support each other through that, and when we lose
1:04:03
Speaker 2: a patient, we need to be able to be there
1:04:05
Speaker 2: to comfort each other and to talk through it. So
1:04:08
Speaker 2: I appreciate your feedback. I appreciate this question. I love
1:04:11
Speaker 2: that you give us that. Hopefully we gave you insight
1:04:14
Speaker 2: and outright dumb ass criticism that is appreciated. But just
1:04:18
Speaker 2: know that we're with you. We've all been through that.
1:04:20
Speaker 2: It is relatable. There are so many other student therapists
1:04:24
Speaker 2: in intern therapist colleagues that listen to our show, and
1:04:27
Speaker 2: I would just encourage colleagues out there. If you're on
1:04:30
Speaker 2: our discord, please join the thread on this episode, comment,
1:04:34
Speaker 2: give feedback, and I hope that the writer's able to
1:04:37
Speaker 2: jump in there and just read your thoughts and just
1:04:39
Speaker 2: be comforted by that. It's really important because it is
1:04:42
Speaker 2: a hard job and we really just need to be
1:04:45
Speaker 2: gassed up by each other so we can get through it.
1:04:47
Speaker 2: So anyway, writer, thank you for this very sincere question,
1:04:50
Speaker 2: very serious question. Glad for it gives us a chance
1:04:54
Speaker 2: to reflect. We're going to take a quick break and
1:04:56
Speaker 2: when we come back, we're talking about is CBT out
1:05:00
Speaker 2: of date? Just talkingizes about this. You're listening to Pop Therapy.
1:05:06
Speaker 3: Today's episode is brought to you by Judy Snyder, Leon Kasab,
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Speaker 3: Carolyn Albert, Sammy Scoop, Sarah Smith, Mike Helm, Darren Cunningham,
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Speaker 3: dot com.
1:05:21
Speaker 2: Lash here we go.
1:05:23
Speaker 3: All right, Jim, what is the full name of the
1:05:26
Speaker 3: man Ingo Montoya seeks revenge?
1:05:30
Speaker 2: And Nigo Montoya? Okay, wait the man he wants revenge on?
1:05:36
Speaker 2: Or his name the man he seeks revenge against? Fuck?
1:05:42
Speaker 4: It would have been hilarious if you'd been like, what's
1:05:43
Speaker 4: the full name of Anigo Montoya?
1:05:45
Speaker 2: Because he's a Hello, my name is Anigo Montoya. You
1:05:51
Speaker 2: killed my father, prepared to die?
1:05:52
Speaker 5: Who's he talking to?
1:05:55
Speaker 2: That is not fair.
1:05:57
Speaker 7: Because he's referred to I don't know what he's referred
1:06:00
Speaker 7: to as the six Fingerman, and then later on I'm
1:06:05
Speaker 7: sure the character has a full last name that's in
1:06:07
Speaker 7: the credits, and I'm sure it's reference.
1:06:09
Speaker 1: No, they say it once because I remember thinking when
1:06:12
Speaker 1: I watched, I was like, oh, he has a name.
1:06:14
Speaker 1: I like, couldn't title is?
1:06:16
Speaker 2: I mean he works for the prince. You know, it's
1:06:19
Speaker 2: not like a duke or anything. It was really Captain
1:06:21
Speaker 2: so and so such and such. I'm gonna go with
1:06:24
Speaker 2: six fingered Man. No, that is interesting. Interesting you want
1:06:31
Speaker 2: to steal?
1:06:32
Speaker 1: I don't have a guess, Jake.
1:06:34
Speaker 2: Oh, you don't have a guess? Interesting? Oh you have? Oh,
1:06:37
Speaker 2: it comes to me. Oh, it's interesting.
1:06:40
Speaker 5: The name of the six Fingerman.
1:06:42
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, it couldn't come to me because Jim
1:06:44
Speaker 4: said that I would get stalked.
1:06:48
Speaker 2: You don't fucking know the name of the six finger Man.
1:06:53
Speaker 4: The name of the count in The Princess Bride who
1:06:56
Speaker 4: was referred to as the six fingered Man.
1:06:58
Speaker 2: Yeah?
1:07:00
Speaker 5: Was he a count?
1:07:01
Speaker 2: Nick? He was a count? Holy, you're not gonna do
1:07:07
Speaker 2: You're not gonna do it? What do we betting? I'm
1:07:15
Speaker 2: looking him right in the eyes, and the confidence this
1:07:19
Speaker 2: man's Dick is huge. He knows the answer. You don't
1:07:23
Speaker 2: think he knows it.
1:07:25
Speaker 1: He doesn't know. He can see.
1:07:31
Speaker 2: I'll do a round. How about a round of drinks?
1:07:33
Speaker 2: All right? Rugan count YEP? Was it really just Countgan? What?
1:07:44
Speaker 2: What do you know?
1:07:46
Speaker 4: Why do you know that the princess I've seen the
1:07:50
Speaker 4: Princess Pride once or twice.
1:07:51
Speaker 2: Shut the fuck that. Ben Savage doesn't know that.
1:07:57
Speaker 5: Fred Savage.
1:08:00
Speaker 2: Neither Ben Savage, brother friend Savage and Ben Stellar. Neither
1:08:06
Speaker 2: of them. Jesus Christ.
1:08:08
Speaker 1: Wow, I feel like I owe Jacob drinks too, Damn.
1:08:12
Speaker 2: I also feel like it is legitimately impressive. It is
1:08:16
Speaker 2: really This one might be tough because.
1:08:18
Speaker 1: I literally thought, was.
1:08:20
Speaker 2: Know that? God, Whitney, what are the pit of despair?
1:08:26
Speaker 2: All that stuff for science? Like? How many sufferings have you?
1:08:29
Speaker 2: That right?
1:08:31
Speaker 3: I'm actually going to give this next one to Jacob.
1:08:33
Speaker 3: But Whitney, this one goes to you. What is the
1:08:36
Speaker 3: name of the region where the Cliffs of Insanity are located?
1:08:40
Speaker 2: Oh?
1:08:40
Speaker 1: Boy, he says it on the boat ride. Yes, the region.
1:08:49
Speaker 5: That was a better impression than I thought.
1:08:56
Speaker 2: This.
1:08:57
Speaker 1: I don't know.
1:08:58
Speaker 2: I mean, there's the swamp. No, it's it's not the swamp,
1:09:01
Speaker 2: but he says.
1:09:02
Speaker 1: He says it so many times.
1:09:03
Speaker 2: The fire swamp. They're in the ship, they're coming up
1:09:06
Speaker 2: on insanity.
1:09:08
Speaker 1: We're in the Wobble region. They can't catch us because
1:09:10
Speaker 1: nobody's in the region. I can't remember the name of it.
1:09:14
Speaker 1: I don't know.
1:09:14
Speaker 2: And then the fire swamp, Jacob, this goes to you.
1:09:18
Speaker 5: I don't know.
1:09:19
Speaker 2: Come around, Jim, I don't know what it is. Guilder
1:09:22
Speaker 2: Gilda off the coasts of Guilder.
1:09:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, the rival nation of Flora Floren.
1:09:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they're in florin there there.
1:09:31
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, all right, man, Jacob, what three classic blunders?
1:09:37
Speaker 2: Oh? Here it is?
1:09:38
Speaker 3: What what are the three classic classic blunders? He mentions
1:09:43
Speaker 3: before he died.
1:09:46
Speaker 4: It's, uh, you never get into a land war in Asia,
1:09:49
Speaker 4: there is one, amazing You never get into a battle
1:09:56
Speaker 4: of wits with a when death is on the line, Sicilian,
1:10:04
Speaker 4: when on the line. Yeah, so it's land war in Asia.
1:10:11
Speaker 4: Don't go get when death is on the line.
1:10:15
Speaker 1: Something physical.
1:10:17
Speaker 5: Can I have a hint?
1:10:19
Speaker 2: It's kind of a trick question because there's not three.
1:10:23
Speaker 5: Oh is that is that just it?
1:10:27
Speaker 2: Yeah?
1:10:27
Speaker 3: I'm gonna give you points. The third one is left
1:10:30
Speaker 3: implied by the dramatic irony of his death.
1:10:33
Speaker 2: Oh right, because he's he's laughing and then just kills over. Yeah.
1:10:37
Speaker 5: Yeah, right.
1:10:40
Speaker 2: That was very good, Jack, Yeah, that was that was extreme.
1:10:43
Speaker 5: I like land War in Asia. That's one of my
1:10:45
Speaker 5: favorite line, like there.
1:10:47
Speaker 2: Are three you.
1:10:51
Speaker 8: Sicilian because when death is on the line, I think
1:10:54
Speaker 8: just the straight up Vietnam War reference in the Princess
1:11:00
Speaker 8: Bride is hilarious.
1:11:03
Speaker 2: War in Asia. Oh my god, you are crushing at
1:11:07
Speaker 2: my man.
1:11:07
Speaker 4: You're just I have pockets of knowledge, are.
1:11:13
Speaker 2: Jesus? Okay, yeah, very one of you. Okay, Oh well,
1:11:21
Speaker 2: little twister roo here, my man, all right, I got
1:11:23
Speaker 2: one for you. Who what is the name of the
1:11:29
Speaker 2: captain of the ship who Wesley impersonates pirate Roberts. Yeah,
1:11:36
Speaker 2: good job. Probably could have gotten some points on that one. Yeah,
1:11:44
Speaker 2: as far as I know, that is correct. So all right.
1:11:47
Speaker 2: So Jacob's in the lead and honestly earned it. Jesus Christ,
1:11:52
Speaker 2: that reugan thing. I feel weird about it. I don't
1:11:57
Speaker 2: know how you cheated something inside.
1:12:01
Speaker 1: Them, you know what.
1:12:03
Speaker 2: Let's see the phones. Let's I want to see search history.
1:12:06
Speaker 2: I want the whole cognito mode revealed. Just don't trust
1:12:13
Speaker 2: it all right, last question of the night is CBT
1:12:17
Speaker 2: out of date? From your buddy Adam Goff. Hey, guys, inconceivable,
1:12:21
Speaker 2: incon I do not think this means what you think
1:12:24
Speaker 2: it means. Hey, guys, I've been listening to your show
1:12:28
Speaker 2: quite a while now. One thing that comes up quite
1:12:31
Speaker 2: often is cognitive behavioral therapy, and it's better what it's
1:12:37
Speaker 2: I've been noticing more and more lately outside of this
1:12:40
Speaker 2: podcast that people are pooh poohing CBT. They talk about
1:12:44
Speaker 2: how it's outdated and ineffective, the science doesn't add up,
1:12:48
Speaker 2: and mental health providers have better tools to use now.
1:12:51
Speaker 2: This even came up in a minor way on your
1:12:54
Speaker 2: recent episode with the guests that came in when Nick
1:12:57
Speaker 2: and when you were out of town, and an offhand
1:13:00
Speaker 2: remark was made about CBT not being a good tool.
1:13:04
Speaker 2: In the moment, mister Jim job and audibly bristled, and
1:13:09
Speaker 2: at a later point he visually bristled well.
1:13:14
Speaker 1: Of salent.
1:13:17
Speaker 5: He looked very uncomfortable.
1:13:18
Speaker 2: I got a little hot into the color. Now, you
1:13:20
Speaker 2: guys are my only source of therapy and therapy information.
1:13:24
Speaker 2: So if you tell me to stick my fingers in
1:13:27
Speaker 2: my ears and shout la la la. Anytime someone bad
1:13:31
Speaker 2: mouthed CBT, I will.
1:13:33
Speaker 5: I want you to do that. But what's going exactly?
1:13:35
Speaker 2: Why am I hearing about this more and more in
1:13:38
Speaker 2: and outside more often. I've had friends casually say CBT
1:13:42
Speaker 2: is pseudoscience. I've heard people say it in interviews on
1:13:46
Speaker 2: other less enjoyable podcasts maybe half a dozen times in
1:13:51
Speaker 2: the last month or two. So what gives? And I apologize,
1:13:55
Speaker 2: I realize I'm Australian and I haven't said the word
1:13:58
Speaker 2: cunt yet. But don't worry, because now I have said
1:14:02
Speaker 2: cunt twice. Love you all. Adam Goff right cut, Thank
1:14:08
Speaker 2: god he got those cunts in there.
1:14:11
Speaker 1: Yeah, CBT. I feel like this is a there's a
1:14:13
Speaker 1: big shifts. There's a big movement happening right now. A
1:14:17
Speaker 1: lot of stuff I see online spilled a t oh well,
1:14:21
Speaker 1: a lot of I know. I think they're just toning
1:14:24
Speaker 1: in on how our bodies are physically holding on to trauma. Sure,
1:14:28
Speaker 1: and a lot of the things like brain spotting, E
1:14:30
Speaker 1: M d R, which I love, I love and support it.
1:14:34
Speaker 1: I think those are just becoming more of those go
1:14:37
Speaker 1: to than CBT. I personally, I want to validate that movement,
1:14:43
Speaker 1: because I get it. I think there is a progression
1:14:45
Speaker 1: happening there. But I don't think that means CBT is
1:14:50
Speaker 1: like ancient history, you know, like it's still very i
1:14:54
Speaker 1: mean scientific, scientifically verified, backed up all these things like
1:15:00
Speaker 1: it can be very helpful. Yeah, it just depends on
1:15:03
Speaker 1: the situation.
1:15:04
Speaker 2: For sure. We do have a lot of new tools. Look,
1:15:06
Speaker 2: what are your thoughts on that?
1:15:08
Speaker 3: I mean, I I come from you know, a background
1:15:13
Speaker 3: and substance use, right.
1:15:15
Speaker 5: A lot of CT and also treatment.
1:15:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, a lot of substence use on the way
1:15:20
Speaker 2: here at the sushi bar. Can you treat it if
1:15:23
Speaker 2: you don't know exactly to get into the chocolate factory
1:15:27
Speaker 2: in order to be a part of this?
1:15:29
Speaker 3: Yeah no, but I mean it's very ubiquitous and in uh,
1:15:34
Speaker 3: substance use treatment, and for a good reason too. I
1:15:37
Speaker 3: think it has been very helpful to utilize the CBT
1:15:40
Speaker 3: approach when looking at you know, addictions, both chemically and behaviorally.
1:15:48
Speaker 2: Sure, So, okay, I have I have some fucking notes
1:15:51
Speaker 2: on this because it gets crazy unravel scroll Yeah, chapter one.
1:15:59
Speaker 2: All right, Look, here's the basic deal about this. When
1:16:03
Speaker 2: cognitive behavioral therapy was first rolled out. It had some
1:16:08
Speaker 2: really interesting features to it, and one of the things
1:16:11
Speaker 2: that I think made it really appetizing at the time,
1:16:13
Speaker 2: as different theories and different techniques were competing, it was
1:16:17
Speaker 2: self evident, like, as you presented this to people, it
1:16:20
Speaker 2: just made sense. And the whole theory of CBT was, Hey,
1:16:24
Speaker 2: I think sometimes our brains jump the gun and we
1:16:29
Speaker 2: misinterpret something. And if we misinterpret something, I think our
1:16:34
Speaker 2: bodies respond to that. So the classic example is, hey,
1:16:41
Speaker 2: when you hear something scary, like you see a commercial
1:16:44
Speaker 2: for a scary disease, and then your brain thinks, oh no,
1:16:48
Speaker 2: what if I have that disease? Then your body experiences
1:16:52
Speaker 2: a panic attack. And we'd say, oh no, how do
1:16:55
Speaker 2: we fix your panic attack? And CBT cognitive behavioral therapy
1:16:59
Speaker 2: with and say, well, let's rewind the tape. What caused
1:17:03
Speaker 2: the panic attack? Well, it was when I was watching
1:17:06
Speaker 2: that commercial. So is the answer? Don't watch the commercial? No,
1:17:10
Speaker 2: CBT would say, can't stop you from watching the commercial,
1:17:13
Speaker 2: but can we notice what happened in you when you
1:17:16
Speaker 2: did watch the commercial? Yeah, I started to think, what
1:17:20
Speaker 2: if I have that terrible disease that I'm scared of?
1:17:24
Speaker 2: And I started to think I do have that terrible disease.
1:17:28
Speaker 2: That's where doctor Arenbach said, there is a cognitive distortion happening.
1:17:33
Speaker 2: Your mental perspective is getting ahead of the situation, and
1:17:38
Speaker 2: your brain is wondering, oh no, I might be in danger.
1:17:42
Speaker 2: And he started naming these different brands of cognitive distortions.
1:17:46
Speaker 2: That one's called catastrophizing, and he said, when your brain thinks,
1:17:50
Speaker 2: oh no, I might be in danger, it's not good
1:17:54
Speaker 2: at nuance, it's not good at understanding. I'm not really
1:17:57
Speaker 2: in danger. I'm just scared I might be in danger
1:18:00
Speaker 2: because your brain kind of stopped evolving a really long
1:18:03
Speaker 2: time ago. So like when cave men sensed danger, they
1:18:06
Speaker 2: should behave as if they are in danger. If they
1:18:09
Speaker 2: perceive that there might be a fucking bear outside the cave,
1:18:12
Speaker 2: they should behave as if there is a fucking bear
1:18:15
Speaker 2: outside the cave. That's how they stayed alive. Homo sapiens
1:18:18
Speaker 2: startle very easily. We run the fuck away, and that's
1:18:21
Speaker 2: how we survive. Right, We're not like these huge apex
1:18:24
Speaker 2: predators have been walking around for a million years being
1:18:27
Speaker 2: the biggest, baddest thing on the block. Like we kind
1:18:29
Speaker 2: of came to our own and we are kind of
1:18:31
Speaker 2: like not the biggest, baddest thing on the block. We
1:18:33
Speaker 2: don't have big sharp teeth or scary claws. We're just
1:18:37
Speaker 2: sort of like persistence, endurance runners and kind of clever.
1:18:40
Speaker 2: So doctor Arenbeck looked at that and he said, humans
1:18:43
Speaker 2: get stuck in these cognitive distortions. They fundamentally perspective the
1:18:48
Speaker 2: wrong interpretation of what's going on, and then all their
1:18:52
Speaker 2: reactions make sense to that. They will start feeling very
1:18:55
Speaker 2: depressed because they came from this conclusion of I'm a
1:18:59
Speaker 2: total piece of shit and I don't matter, nobody loves me.
1:19:03
Speaker 2: And so CBT was this method of saying, hey, I
1:19:06
Speaker 2: know you think you're a piece of shit. I know
1:19:08
Speaker 2: you think nobody loves you. Can we analyze that? Can
1:19:12
Speaker 2: we break that down? Can we ask rational questions that
1:19:15
Speaker 2: slowly allow you to question this conclusion that you think
1:19:19
Speaker 2: you've reached. That's fundamentally what cognitive behavioral therapy is. The
1:19:23
Speaker 2: name cognitive behavioral therapy sounds way sexier than it really is. Cognitions,
1:19:28
Speaker 2: which is perspective leads to behavior or experience, having a
1:19:33
Speaker 2: panic attack, having an anxiety attack, feeling quite depressed, becoming
1:19:37
Speaker 2: so believing that the world hates you and that there's
1:19:41
Speaker 2: no point that you go do drugs or something of
1:19:43
Speaker 2: that effect. So when cognitive behavioral therapy came out, it
1:19:47
Speaker 2: was one of many theories that was sort of presenting
1:19:51
Speaker 2: itself as this is a straightforward question your reality theory
1:19:56
Speaker 2: that probably leads to you feeling better quite quickly. So
1:20:01
Speaker 2: where CBT took off compared to a lot of its
1:20:04
Speaker 2: other contemporaries at the time, like ret or RIBT or
1:20:09
Speaker 2: other things like that, is that it was easily testable.
1:20:12
Speaker 2: It was very straightforward. Now once we stepped into this
1:20:16
Speaker 2: new realm of saying, hey, all these psychotherapies exist. They
1:20:20
Speaker 2: all have these very different ideas of how therapy should
1:20:23
Speaker 2: work and what the intervention should look like. CBT was
1:20:27
Speaker 2: convenient because it was very easy to measure. You had
1:20:31
Speaker 2: other people talking about all these interesting things like completing
1:20:34
Speaker 2: a schema in like Freudian psychoanalysis and like getting into
1:20:38
Speaker 2: this deep like one hundred therapy session kind of like
1:20:41
Speaker 2: purview of how therapy was going to work. And then
1:20:43
Speaker 2: you had to air and beck in cognitive behavioral therapy
1:20:45
Speaker 2: being like we think like eight sessions, like eight hours
1:20:50
Speaker 2: of working through and identifying these thinking patterns and learning
1:20:54
Speaker 2: how to challenge them in useful, relatable, rational ways when
1:20:58
Speaker 2: they're happening, will probably yield measurable results in that patient's life.
1:21:05
Speaker 2: And whatever the presenting problem was, I'll bet you will
1:21:08
Speaker 2: see it diminish quite a bit. So when they started
1:21:12
Speaker 2: doing the science on CBT, they found that, yep, it
1:21:15
Speaker 2: was pretty damn good at that, so cool it started
1:21:19
Speaker 2: passing all these first scientific explorations and quickly became celebrated
1:21:24
Speaker 2: as like, hey, this is measurable, it's short term, it's realistic.
1:21:28
Speaker 2: Whereas you have like Freudian psychoanalysis that's talking about being
1:21:31
Speaker 2: in therapy for a year, year and a half minimum,
1:21:34
Speaker 2: going every single week, you have something that looks like
1:21:37
Speaker 2: a discrete unit of care that's like eight to ten weeks,
1:21:40
Speaker 2: and that's consistent with the theory. Great, but then you
1:21:45
Speaker 2: know who really loved that shit? Insurance companies. So insurance
1:21:49
Speaker 2: companies get involved, and insurances actually fund a lot of research.
1:21:54
Speaker 2: They fund a lot of pharmaceutical research, they fund a
1:21:56
Speaker 2: lot of treatment research, and you might think, o, like,
1:21:59
Speaker 2: why would they do that? They're the bad guys. They
1:22:01
Speaker 2: are invested in finding effective, short, quick efficient treatment modalities.
1:22:08
Speaker 2: And one of the things that's always pissed them off
1:22:10
Speaker 2: about mental health is that fundamentally, the last one hundred
1:22:14
Speaker 2: years of true research that we have across the board
1:22:17
Speaker 2: shows that what really heals in mental health is the
1:22:20
Speaker 2: common factors, which has to do with the skill of
1:22:23
Speaker 2: the therapist, the connection of the therapist working from a
1:22:27
Speaker 2: variety of angles, having mastery of a dozen different techniques
1:22:30
Speaker 2: and different interventions at any given time. But that bedevils
1:22:34
Speaker 2: insurance companies because that is fucking hard to define. It's
1:22:38
Speaker 2: hard to discreetly measure into a unit of like how
1:22:42
Speaker 2: much I should pay for this thing. They want to
1:22:44
Speaker 2: know what you should do, so they start funding research
1:22:48
Speaker 2: and CBT when the science starts coming back and saying, hey,
1:22:52
Speaker 2: this is like measurable and it seems reliable, so insurance
1:22:55
Speaker 2: starts funding it. And then the returns keep coming back
1:22:58
Speaker 2: and the science keeps saying, hey, look this shit seems
1:23:00
Speaker 2: to work, and it seems to work at a pretty
1:23:02
Speaker 2: quick rate. So insurances start telling all the providers, Okay, look,
1:23:07
Speaker 2: when you do therapy, we're not paying for just any
1:23:10
Speaker 2: fucking therapy anymore. We are paying for quote, evidence based practices.
1:23:17
Speaker 2: This becomes a very interesting word because the way you
1:23:22
Speaker 2: should see a therapist is you should see a master
1:23:26
Speaker 2: clinician therapist as a professional chef. Okay, they can make
1:23:32
Speaker 2: a lot of different things. You can put them in
1:23:34
Speaker 2: a lot of different kitchens, and they are really good
1:23:37
Speaker 2: at cooking, and you can give them all kinds of
1:23:39
Speaker 2: interesting ingredients and they will put something together that works
1:23:42
Speaker 2: for what that customer says they want. The customer comes
1:23:45
Speaker 2: in and says, boy, I'm in this kind of mood.
1:23:46
Speaker 2: Can you make something that works for this? They go,
1:23:48
Speaker 2: you know what, let me see what I've got to
1:23:49
Speaker 2: work with. I'll make something for you. That's the identity
1:23:53
Speaker 2: of the therapist. That's the chef. But CBT is like
1:23:56
Speaker 2: having one specific set of ingredients. And the insurance company
1:24:00
Speaker 2: doesn't like a chef who can just rely on their skills.
1:24:04
Speaker 2: They want a vending machine that you push a seven
1:24:08
Speaker 2: and it spits out exactly what they expect every single time.
1:24:12
Speaker 2: That's what physicians do. The patient goes in and says,
1:24:15
Speaker 2: I have strepped throat. The physician is supposed to specifically
1:24:18
Speaker 2: prescribe a maxicillin. That is what the insurance expects. That
1:24:23
Speaker 2: is what the vending machine is supposed to spit out.
1:24:25
Speaker 2: They know exactly how much to pay for that, and
1:24:27
Speaker 2: they know exactly when that should kick in and work,
1:24:30
Speaker 2: and if it didn't work and the patient needs further
1:24:32
Speaker 2: help down the line, they can understand why that went
1:24:35
Speaker 2: wrong and how much they should pay to fix it.
1:24:37
Speaker 2: Down the line. With better things in mental health, it
1:24:40
Speaker 2: bedevil's insurances that they can't figure out what we're doing
1:24:45
Speaker 2: and when it should work and when it shouldn't work,
1:24:47
Speaker 2: and what's going on. So they really started getting attached
1:24:51
Speaker 2: to things like cognitive behavioral therapy because it was this
1:24:54
Speaker 2: eight to ten session formula that they could expect to work,
1:24:59
Speaker 2: and if it didn't wor work, something's wrong. So they
1:25:01
Speaker 2: started telling therapists, you should provide evidence based treatment, evidence
1:25:06
Speaker 2: based practices like cognitive behavioral therapy. That went on for
1:25:10
Speaker 2: like ten to fifteen years, as mental health was starting
1:25:13
Speaker 2: to be covered by insurances and federal law was starting
1:25:16
Speaker 2: to tell insurance that they needed to cover this treatment
1:25:18
Speaker 2: and they were just routinely and systematically defying it, which
1:25:21
Speaker 2: they continue to do. In twenty twenty five, the only
1:25:23
Speaker 2: compromise was, yeah, we'll do it, but like, here's what
1:25:26
Speaker 2: you specifically have to do, and therapists don't like that shit.
1:25:30
Speaker 2: Chefs don't like to be told you must make fucking
1:25:33
Speaker 2: spaghettios over and over and over again when people order
1:25:36
Speaker 2: something Italian, we want to make something custom for that person.
1:25:40
Speaker 2: And this leads to the revolution that has happened in
1:25:43
Speaker 2: the profession over the last probably five to ten years
1:25:47
Speaker 2: related to evidence based practices generally and cognitive behavioral therapy specifically,
1:25:52
Speaker 2: because it's been crammed down our throats, because therapists that
1:25:56
Speaker 2: take insurance have been warned you better do CBT and
1:25:59
Speaker 2: a better see c your treatment plan. I better see
1:26:01
Speaker 2: CBT references in your progress notes. If I don't see that,
1:26:05
Speaker 2: I'm gonna invalidate your care. I'm gonna question what you're doing.
1:26:08
Speaker 2: I'm gonna claw back the money. I'm going to insult you,
1:26:11
Speaker 2: and I'm gonna say you don't know how to do
1:26:13
Speaker 2: this shit. And so that's extremely wrong. That's extremely insulting
1:26:17
Speaker 2: to the profession. It's extremely insulting to our training and
1:26:20
Speaker 2: our techniques and what we're here to do and what
1:26:22
Speaker 2: actually gets results. Unfortunately, the backlash from the therapeutic community
1:26:27
Speaker 2: has been too overcorrect in the other direction. And this
1:26:31
Speaker 2: is where writer, you're hearing a lot of people say,
1:26:33
Speaker 2: oh my god, CBT is bullshit, it doesn't work anymore.
1:26:36
Speaker 2: There's tons of science and says it's all bullshit. And
1:26:39
Speaker 2: you've actually seen a lot of people in our profession
1:26:41
Speaker 2: almost overcorrect to like this over spiritualized version of care
1:26:45
Speaker 2: where they're starting to get into some weird shit like
1:26:47
Speaker 2: crystals and reiki and like energy healing and even trauma work,
1:26:51
Speaker 2: like trauma work as Whitney was reflecting on things like
1:26:55
Speaker 2: us Whitney gave you very good that's helping with your chakras.
1:26:59
Speaker 2: That is reference like AMDR brain spotting. These are fine
1:27:05
Speaker 2: because they're fundamentally evident s based they have to do
1:27:07
Speaker 2: with processing trauma in novel ways, which is great, Like
1:27:11
Speaker 2: there's nothing unique about that. They are new flavorful twists
1:27:15
Speaker 2: on old, like established concepts. But what's happening is we're
1:27:19
Speaker 2: seeing people go even further with that, and we're seeing
1:27:22
Speaker 2: books like The Body Keep Score, which I think brings
1:27:25
Speaker 2: out some really important conversations that we need to have.
1:27:29
Speaker 2: But it turned into this like line in the sand
1:27:32
Speaker 2: where it was like one trup believes in this ethereal
1:27:36
Speaker 2: like multidimensional meta analysis of like anxiety and trauma lives
1:27:41
Speaker 2: inside of your cellular epigenetics, and that's difficult to prove,
1:27:46
Speaker 2: but like there's some hints that maybe there is some
1:27:48
Speaker 2: arguments for that, and it starts to get into this
1:27:50
Speaker 2: bucket of like that's what all of this stuff really
1:27:53
Speaker 2: comes down to. And when you're telling somebody to like
1:27:56
Speaker 2: question their perspectives, you're actually gaslighting them because deep down
1:28:01
Speaker 2: in their bones, their body knows that they're in danger
1:28:04
Speaker 2: and you're asking them to deny their deep internal intuitions
1:28:08
Speaker 2: and you're lying to them. And I don't think that's correct,
1:28:12
Speaker 2: but like it steers so hard in that direction, in
1:28:15
Speaker 2: part because it's a reaction to the way that the
1:28:18
Speaker 2: commercial insurance industry shoved CBT down everybody's fucking throats for
1:28:23
Speaker 2: the last ten years and told them they're not allowed
1:28:25
Speaker 2: to be professional chefs anymore and explore their intuitions and
1:28:28
Speaker 2: do the work they were trained to do. So fundamentally,
1:28:33
Speaker 2: my opinion is CBT is one of probably a dozen
1:28:39
Speaker 2: well recognized evidence based treatments, but fundamentally, beneath all of
1:28:45
Speaker 2: these treatments is the common factors. So I look at
1:28:48
Speaker 2: CBT as one particular recipe, one particular thing that's in
1:28:54
Speaker 2: the pantry. At the end of the day, the chef
1:28:57
Speaker 2: is who makes this. The success or failure of therapy
1:29:01
Speaker 2: comes down to the skill of the chef. You cannot
1:29:05
Speaker 2: just take any dumb ass cook, throw them in the kitchen,
1:29:07
Speaker 2: give them CBT and have them be successful. And that's
1:29:09
Speaker 2: what Insurance wants. They want this to become a fucking
1:29:12
Speaker 2: vending machine. That way they can get rid of our
1:29:14
Speaker 2: profession and just have any asshole who's been assigned to
1:29:17
Speaker 2: this task to give you workshoots on CBT. And so rightfully,
1:29:21
Speaker 2: my colleagues who are in here the other night, and
1:29:23
Speaker 2: many other colleagues are pissed about the shit and are
1:29:26
Speaker 2: like fuck CBT because they see it as a mechanism
1:29:28
Speaker 2: of control and like invalidation of all their training and
1:29:33
Speaker 2: their work and their intuitions and their skills. To that extent,
1:29:36
Speaker 2: I agree with them, but I think they step too
1:29:38
Speaker 2: far whenever they say it's all been invalidated. There's no
1:29:41
Speaker 2: science about it. The new science says that all the
1:29:43
Speaker 2: shit's internal and invisible and spiritual. We're going too far
1:29:47
Speaker 2: in the wrong direction of that. So I think both
1:29:49
Speaker 2: can be true. CBT is a evidence based treatment. We
1:29:52
Speaker 2: have lots of data to suggest that it's very useful,
1:29:55
Speaker 2: but that shouldn't suggest that it alone does any fucking thing.
1:29:59
Speaker 2: It's like saying pop is good. Yeah, pasta is really good,
1:30:02
Speaker 2: but in the hands of a shitty chef like me,
1:30:04
Speaker 2: I'll set the kitchen on fire because I don't know
1:30:06
Speaker 2: what the fuck I'm doing. So like, you should give
1:30:08
Speaker 2: it to somebody that knows what they are doing and
1:30:10
Speaker 2: they will make you something better with that box of pasta. So, yes,
1:30:14
Speaker 2: it's useful, it's nourishing, but in the hands of the
1:30:16
Speaker 2: wrong person, it's fucking useless. And in the hands of
1:30:19
Speaker 2: the right person, any bad idea or any good idea
1:30:22
Speaker 2: could be useful, if that makes sense.
1:30:24
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like a lot of clinicians today want
1:30:27
Speaker 1: to instead of holding space for both, it's if CBT
1:30:32
Speaker 1: isn't or if these other things are helpful, then CBT
1:30:37
Speaker 1: can't be. And so it's kind of like, I don't know,
1:30:41
Speaker 1: just isolating each one instead of saying, hey, like I'm
1:30:44
Speaker 1: not going to use just CBT when I'm dealing with
1:30:47
Speaker 1: OCD clients, Like, you know, there's a different skill utilized
1:30:51
Speaker 1: there that would not work because that's a different thing happening, right, But.
1:30:56
Speaker 2: One size fits all though gets thrown on us like
1:30:58
Speaker 2: dry CBT.
1:30:59
Speaker 1: Yet it's like out and it's like, well no, some
1:31:01
Speaker 1: people really really you know, connect with that and it's
1:31:04
Speaker 1: very helpful for them. Other clients I work with absolutely
1:31:07
Speaker 1: not that is not or maybe not absolutely not, but
1:31:09
Speaker 1: like I'm only going to take pieces of that and
1:31:11
Speaker 1: the rest we're going to majorly use something else. And
1:31:14
Speaker 1: really at the end of the day, that kind of
1:31:15
Speaker 1: reminds me of being in grad school when it was
1:31:17
Speaker 1: really pushed like, hey, you don't want like all this
1:31:21
Speaker 1: whole tool box of things like get your specialty, do
1:31:23
Speaker 1: this one.
1:31:25
Speaker 2: They always did that.
1:31:26
Speaker 1: Yeah, like U get your theory and one move, yeah,
1:31:29
Speaker 1: one move you're.
1:31:30
Speaker 2: One specialist is one thing.
1:31:32
Speaker 1: You're a CBT therapist.
1:31:34
Speaker 2: You Slytherin. That was my program.
1:31:37
Speaker 1: Wasn't like that really. I feel like that was kind
1:31:40
Speaker 1: of like that was poo pooed upon when I was like, oh,
1:31:42
Speaker 1: you you don't want to be wishy washy and just
1:31:44
Speaker 1: blending all these wings did be a curist.
1:31:48
Speaker 3: I mean, we kind of had that perspective of like,
1:31:50
Speaker 3: you know, most people claim to be eclectic, and really
1:31:53
Speaker 3: it's because they don't know enough about it. Yeah, one
1:31:56
Speaker 3: particular theory, So like that was kind of explained to us,
1:32:02
Speaker 3: but no one in our program ever forced like one
1:32:06
Speaker 3: particular thing. It was usually like you should probably have
1:32:09
Speaker 3: a toolbox of two or three things that you can
1:32:13
Speaker 3: get good at them. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and not but
1:32:16
Speaker 3: not not just only do CBT or not just only
1:32:19
Speaker 3: do r EBT or anything like that.
1:32:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, ours were pretty emphasized like just pick
1:32:25
Speaker 1: your one one lane and stay in it. And right
1:32:27
Speaker 1: as I was graduating, yeah, in like twenty ten and on,
1:32:31
Speaker 1: it was like, okay, well no, actually it's great to
1:32:35
Speaker 1: kind of use different tools in your toolbox. And it
1:32:36
Speaker 1: was kind of hard mentally to adjust to actually like, oh.
1:32:39
Speaker 2: Okay, there's a lot of interesting tribalism. And I see
1:32:42
Speaker 2: that in grad students today, and I see that across
1:32:45
Speaker 2: the country. You know, I have contacts across the country
1:32:47
Speaker 2: and grad programs, and they'll tell me like, oh yeah,
1:32:50
Speaker 2: our professors strongly insists that, like it's like a fucking
1:32:54
Speaker 2: Harry Potter house, Like you've got to pick your your
1:32:56
Speaker 2: school of thought, Like you can get another karate or
1:33:00
Speaker 2: you do kung fu. Don't try to be fucking both
1:33:02
Speaker 2: get really good at one. It's it's a way of living.
1:33:06
Speaker 2: And like they're like, yeah, yeah, yeah, a little bit
1:33:10
Speaker 2: of everything, a little bit of a little bit of yeah.
1:33:14
Speaker 2: But what is the word? Oh you mean the language
1:33:19
Speaker 2: you've been speaking your whole life. Tell me you're from Michigan, dude?
1:33:26
Speaker 2: How you say Michigan Detroit? So yeah, but like I'm
1:33:31
Speaker 2: with you, Whitney, Like it's to me, I'm all four
1:33:34
Speaker 2: students learning to master or to get really competent in
1:33:39
Speaker 2: a in a two or three things that they really
1:33:41
Speaker 2: relate to organically great, you'll probably find that you use
1:33:44
Speaker 2: those tools really a lot, like wonderful. You should know
1:33:47
Speaker 2: how to use a hammer really well. You know how
1:33:48
Speaker 2: to use a screwdriver really well. Let's start with that.
1:33:51
Speaker 2: But as you step forward, if you're like, nope, I
1:33:53
Speaker 2: stick to the I'm loyal to hammers and screwdrivers, Like
1:33:56
Speaker 2: that's dumb, Like you really are going to have to
1:33:58
Speaker 2: use it, right, you need to use all the tools.
1:34:01
Speaker 2: I'm more of a jackhammer kind of guys. You seem
1:34:03
Speaker 2: like a jack camer kind of guess Jack Camer Ever,
1:34:10
Speaker 2: since elementary school. They've been saying that. So anyway, writer,
1:34:14
Speaker 2: long story short, there's a lot of tea in the
1:34:16
Speaker 2: profession about this. It is this ongoing thing. I'm a
1:34:20
Speaker 2: moderate on this. There are there's a tribe of people
1:34:23
Speaker 2: that say, we're tired of the silly mystical bullshit, and
1:34:29
Speaker 2: we're strongly arguing just for evidence based practices, and they
1:34:34
Speaker 2: tend to first lift the flag of CBT and say
1:34:37
Speaker 2: this is an unimpunable hill. So we're going to push
1:34:40
Speaker 2: this at everybody again and say this is what's correct.
1:34:42
Speaker 2: Everything else is a lie. I don't agree with my
1:34:45
Speaker 2: friends on that side, because that's the vending machine argument.
1:34:47
Speaker 2: That's what the insurance companies fucking want, and I don't
1:34:50
Speaker 2: agree with that. I think the skill of the carpenter
1:34:53
Speaker 2: is ultimately the thing that builds the house, not the
1:34:57
Speaker 2: actual tools. I think some tools are better than other tools,
1:35:01
Speaker 2: and I think that there's value to that. But then
1:35:03
Speaker 2: I have friends on the other side that say, Nope,
1:35:06
Speaker 2: don't fucking use this tool. It's dumb, it's all a lie,
1:35:09
Speaker 2: and I think that that's not correct either. This tool
1:35:12
Speaker 2: is correctly designed, it is extremely useful, it applies to
1:35:15
Speaker 2: a lot of things, and you are doing your patients
1:35:18
Speaker 2: and your profession a disservice when you pretend that's not
1:35:22
Speaker 2: true as a reaction to those who have tried to
1:35:25
Speaker 2: bludgeon you with this instrument. So the moderate position is
1:35:28
Speaker 2: to say, let's follow the science. The science is tricky
1:35:32
Speaker 2: because the science has been skewed in the direction of
1:35:36
Speaker 2: over emphasizing CBT to the exclusion of other techniques. Because
1:35:41
Speaker 2: it was well funded. Insurances were writing checks to any
1:35:45
Speaker 2: university that said, yeah, we might want to write research
1:35:48
Speaker 2: whether CBT works with couples, and insurance companies are like,
1:35:50
Speaker 2: here's fucking infinity dollars, like bookmark this, send us the
1:35:55
Speaker 2: results because if it turns out this works, this is
1:35:57
Speaker 2: going to save us a billion dollars in like all
1:36:00
Speaker 2: all the sessions that we can say are no longer
1:36:02
Speaker 2: valid because all that is needed was eight sessions, and
1:36:05
Speaker 2: if you went over that, something's wrong. So it was abused.
1:36:09
Speaker 2: It's been used as a weapon against us. That's why
1:36:11
Speaker 2: we're very sensitive about it. But if we're being truthful,
1:36:14
Speaker 2: yes it does work. Yes it is very effective. The
1:36:17
Speaker 2: reason you hear about a lot on our show is
1:36:19
Speaker 2: because Nick and I, especially come from schools that CBT
1:36:23
Speaker 2: is very useful because our work is very practical work
1:36:27
Speaker 2: that has to do with like tangible We need results
1:36:30
Speaker 2: this week, this person needs to stay sober, We need
1:36:32
Speaker 2: to get through this anxiety episode. There is depression right now,
1:36:36
Speaker 2: and CBT tends to be very like effective and short
1:36:39
Speaker 2: term work, whereas if our specialities were like long term
1:36:42
Speaker 2: depth trauma work, we probably wouldn't be celebrating CBT because
1:36:47
Speaker 2: that's a hammer when you need a screwdriver. That's just
1:36:49
Speaker 2: the wrong fucking tool, and so we wouldn't be celebrating
1:36:52
Speaker 2: it as much. But colleagues that do do a lot
1:36:54
Speaker 2: of trauma treatment will be like, I don't like cbtver
1:36:56
Speaker 2: it's like, of course you don't. I wouldn't either. It
1:36:58
Speaker 2: is irrelevant. You can't tell people I'm sorry, your perspective
1:37:02
Speaker 2: is wrong when you were abused as a fucking child,
1:37:04
Speaker 2: Like we have different tool sets to deal with that.
1:37:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, Or I do see that too. When I have
1:37:10
Speaker 1: other social worker friends who are very engaged, engaged in
1:37:14
Speaker 1: the community, like financial struggles, homelessness, things like that, it's like, yeah,
1:37:19
Speaker 1: we're not gonna go like just.
1:37:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're catastrophizing. Yeah, yeah, I don't have any food.
1:37:25
Speaker 2: Well that's what you think. Yeah, no, no, really, I
1:37:27
Speaker 2: don't have any foods.
1:37:28
Speaker 1: Right, So their commentary is like poo pooing on CBT,
1:37:31
Speaker 1: and I'm like, well, yeah, that that makes sense. I
1:37:33
Speaker 1: get it.
1:37:33
Speaker 2: I would argue that's an inappropriate application of CBT. But again,
1:37:37
Speaker 2: the insurance companies are the ones that shove this down
1:37:39
Speaker 2: our throats and said always try CBT first, And I
1:37:42
Speaker 2: get it. I get why our colleagues are like, fuck you,
1:37:45
Speaker 2: like this is not appropriate for trauma. It's like, nope,
1:37:47
Speaker 2: it's not. It's not appropriately over CD. It's not it's
1:37:49
Speaker 2: not appropriate for lived problems. No, it's not a lot
1:37:53
Speaker 2: of times it is not useful. So in that sense,
1:37:56
Speaker 2: it is being wrongly applied and then pushed back against,
1:37:59
Speaker 2: and that's why you're hearing the gripes. So anyway, Adam,
1:38:03
Speaker 2: thank you.
1:38:04
Speaker 1: Good question, you cunt.
1:38:06
Speaker 2: We are going to take quick break, and when we
1:38:07
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1:38:10
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1:38:34
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1:39:00
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1:42:17
Speaker 4: Anybody who tells you different it is trying to sell
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Speaker 4: you something.
1:42:20
Speaker 2: I like it. It's just true.
1:42:22
Speaker 1: What's the name of the powder.
1:42:25
Speaker 2: Deadly i acane powder. What you do not smell is
1:42:30
Speaker 2: deadly kane powder. Goodbye,