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What is the Church? And What is it for? Exploring Ecclesiology with David Emerton · Future Christian

0:07
>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
0:10
source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
0:12
the 21st century. At the Future Christian
0:16
Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
0:19
and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
0:21
wisdom to help you and your community of faith
0:24
walk boldly into the future. Whether
0:27
you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
0:30
of your faith community, this podcast is
0:33
designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
0:36
you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
0:39
And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
0:44
>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
0:47
Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes the Rev. Dr.
0:49
David Emerton to the program. David
0:52
is director of Saint Mellitus College,
0:55
East Midlands, United Kingdom. He
0:58
previously served as Principal of the School of
1:01
Discipleship in the Diocese of Southwell
1:04
and Nottingham and as a Teaching Fellow in
1:07
Systematic and Historical Theology at the
1:09
University of Aberdeen. David is
1:12
ordained as priest in the Church of England and prior
1:15
to his training for ordination he worked in the
1:18
City of London as a solicitor. He is
1:21
the author of God's Church Community, the
1:24
Ecclesiology of Dietrich Bonhoeffer
1:27
and Types of
1:29
Five Theological Approaches.
1:32
A, uh, reminder before we start today's conversation,
1:35
please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast,
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leave a review and share Future Christian with a
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laurensonatemediapro
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with comments, questions or ideas for future
1:54
episodes. We appreciate your voice
1:56
in how we faithfully discern the future of the
1:59
church.
2:10
>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. This is Loren
2:13
Richmond Jr. And today I'm pleased to be
2:16
welcoming the Reverend Dr. David Emerton.
2:19
Thank you so much for being here.
2:21
>> David: Thank uh, you, uh, thank you for the invite. It's great to be with you
2:24
and uh, it's great to um, come along and
2:26
um, speak on your podcast.
2:29
>> Loren: Yeah, I'm glad to have you. Well, let's take a
2:32
moment just to share a little bit about yourself. Anything else you
2:35
want our listeners to know about you.
2:39
>> David: Um, well, um, um
2:42
I'm based in the uk um, I'm
2:44
currently um, uh the director
2:47
of ah, Civilitis Colleges Midlands, which is
2:50
a Church of England, um, theological
2:53
college or seminary. Um, you would probably describe it
2:56
as uh, over in the States. Um, so we
2:58
train men and women for ordained ministry but also
3:01
offer undergraduate and postgraduate uh,
3:04
programs of study in theology.
3:07
Um, before that uh, I worked
3:10
um, at a diocesan level, uh, within
3:13
uh, the Church of England and uh, before
3:16
that I spent a little bit of time up in Aberdeen
3:19
where I did some further study or My
3:21
doctorate study, um and also was a teaching fellow
3:24
there. Ah and ah a long time before
3:27
that ah I was involved in parish ah ministry
3:30
um in London and I
3:33
started out life really. Um, well I did start out life as
3:36
a corporate lawyer working in the
3:39
city of uh London. So um, my
3:42
background uh really isn't theology in
3:45
that sense in terms of how I started out life.
3:48
I um read history as ah an undergraduate at the University
3:51
of Edinburgh and then kind of passed through law
3:54
school uh on my way to um work
3:57
as a solicitor in uh central uh
3:59
London. Uh so that's just a little bit about really my
4:02
background uh to be honest with you.
4:04
>> Loren: Well I'm uh grateful to have this conversation with you.
4:07
I often tell people one of my favorite things about doing
4:10
this podcast is I get to talk to folks I
4:13
uh would not ordinarily get to talk to in
4:16
life. So uh, you know it's really one of the
4:19
advantages of this current uh context.
4:22
All right, so let's uh share a few. Just what kind about your
4:25
background? Faith, uh journey. What faith looked like early
4:28
in life and then what it looks like today or early faith
4:31
looked like.
4:32
>> David: Yeah so I'm the youngest of
4:35
three um uh children. I've uh got an older brother
4:38
and older sister. Uh we grew up uh in
4:41
uh the northwest of England,
4:43
um in a household where
4:46
um the Christian faith wasn't really
4:49
a day to day reality uh for us. We were
4:51
taken to church, um to the
4:54
local village, uh parish church, a tiny little parish
4:57
church in sort ah of rural um at uh
5:00
Cheshire in England. Um we'd
5:03
all been baptized as infants
5:05
interestingly uh and
5:08
we I guess came to faith um
5:12
myself but also my brother and sister slightly later on in
5:15
life. So I became a Christian or I would say I
5:18
became a Christian when I was 14
5:20
um quite strangely at a holiday club that the
5:23
local church was running for 5 to 11 year olds.
5:26
Um and um, I'd been kind of
5:29
persuaded to go along under slight duress
5:31
uh by my older brother. Uh but uh, it was
5:34
there really that I uh gave my life to
5:37
Christ uh I would say and ever since
5:40
really have been trying to learn what it means
5:44
to uh become a Christian. Um
5:47
uh, Eugene Peterson I guess has it right,
5:50
uh that discipleship is a long obedience in
5:53
the same direction and uh, I guess for me
5:55
Jesus is um that direction
5:58
uh to my life now. Uh and the one who I
6:01
endeavour to try and set sail towards daily,
6:04
uh so to speak. Um although some days
6:06
I'm uh more successful than
6:09
others. Uh but uh I guess following after
6:12
Jesus, uh, for me is what uh, my Christian faith means to
6:15
me. Um, following after Jesus, whatever and
6:17
to whatever and to wherever he might,
6:20
uh, call. Um, so that's probably
6:23
a little bit about a uh, simple
6:25
introduction to how I became a Christian.
6:28
Obviously, um, that's involved
6:31
many other things. Uh, the journey has been
6:34
m. Long ah since I was 14. I'm not that
6:37
old, uh, but uh. It has been a good few years, a
6:40
good few decades, um, in terms of trying to figure
6:43
out ah, what it does mean to follow um,
6:46
after Jesus and to uh, increasingly come
6:48
to bear his image.
6:51
>> Loren: Well, in line with that quote you shared from Eugene
6:54
Peterson, that discipleship is long obedience
6:57
in the same direction. If I heard that right, I feel like you can always
7:00
count on Eugene Peterson for some great quotes like
7:03
that.
7:05
What is a spiritual discipline, uh, that helps you
7:08
maintain that long obedience?
7:10
>> David: Then,
7:12
um. Oh man, there are probably
7:15
quite a few. But, um, I think probably top of my
7:18
list would be
7:19
um, uh,
7:22
walking the journey of Christian faith in the company of other
7:25
people, um, within the life of the local
7:28
church in that sense, ah, taking part in
7:30
the worshiping life of the local church, but also
7:34
um, being uh,
7:37
part of the community of God's people and allowing that
7:39
community to shape, um me,
7:42
um, to form me, uh, in various different
7:45
uh, ways. I guess over the years there have been sort of
7:48
countless, um,
7:51
uh, other Christians, uh, whether family or
7:54
friends, whether uh, staff at kind of
7:57
mission organizations or even in the theological
8:00
college that I now work for. Um,
8:03
my PhD supervisor, kind of other kind
8:06
of people I've come across in various different avenues.
8:09
My uh, spiritual director for example, today. But
8:11
uh, all of whom who have kind of uh. Shaped and
8:14
formed, encouraged and challenged, um,
8:17
and really kind of um.
8:20
Kept me going I suppose, and actually held
8:23
out, uh, to me, uh, the life of Jesus
8:25
Christ, um, and sort of
8:28
patterned something or witness um,
8:31
something in terms of what it means to uh, be a
8:34
disciple of Jesus.
8:35
>> Loren: Well, David is the author of the new
8:38
book Types of Ecclesiology
8:41
Five Theological
8:44
Approaches, which we'll be talking about
8:46
here today.
8:48
And I suppose
8:52
I think I want to introduce this conversation in this
8:55
way. From my perspective,
8:58
at least here in the States and reading the
9:01
introduction and the early parts of your book, it really seems
9:04
like there's a similar challenge
9:07
happening in your neck of the
9:09
woods. There's a real question of what
9:12
is the church about? What's it for?
9:15
What purpose does it have? Moving forward,
9:19
I highlighted this quote from your introduction. You
9:22
write that the Church of England was largely content
9:25
to accept its prescribed status as nonessential
9:28
throughout the COVID 19 crisis. To
9:31
many outside the church, indeed to many inside the Church, this
9:34
appeared to be a rather disconcerting
9:36
disappearance of the church from UK national
9:39
life at a time when people were confronted by
9:42
the reality of death in an intensely
9:45
powerful way.
9:48
You have another quote here that I think again is relevant.
9:51
You write the marginalization of the slow and costly work of
9:54
theological education in the Church of England's life is
9:57
all the more baffling when what is perhaps most needed in the
10:00
Church today is theologically astute followers of
10:03
Jesus who can out narrate a sin
10:06
sick world. So there's a lot there to
10:08
unpack. But uh, I think one of the things that
10:11
struck me about your book and
10:14
about what you're trying to,
10:17
at least as I understand it, uh, trying to
10:20
tackle is that it's really something
10:22
that it seems like both in the
10:25
States, I know from my co host Martha in
10:28
Canada, maybe it's a
10:31
Western Christian thing about what is
10:34
the church. So I kind of gave you a lot here
10:37
to respond to. So feel free to kind of
10:40
to run with that.
10:43
>> David: Um, yeah, so I guess
10:47
for me the sort of, I guess part of the inspiration or the
10:50
part of the reason um,
10:52
behind the book is uh,
10:56
uh, really as you've articulated this
10:59
question of what is the church, uh it
11:02
seems to me that in the Western
11:05
church in particular, uh, given its
11:07
decline, um, so often, uh, it
11:10
seems to me that the church, whether that is the Church of England or whether it
11:13
is uh, another church denomination within
11:16
the Western church, be it in the UK or in the
11:19
States, it seems to me that so often that the
11:22
response to that decline uh, can on
11:24
the one hand either be inertia, which would be
11:27
kind of the uh,
11:30
perhaps the response of the Church of England within the context of the
11:33
COVID 19 crisis, although
11:35
clearly they were examples of
11:38
great practice during that time as well.
11:41
Um, but then also perhaps uh, on the other
11:43
hand, uh, the response of
11:46
what um. Michael uh. Jenkins in a book
11:49
that he wrote, I think at the end of the 20th century called the
11:52
Church Faces Death, called the Hyperactivity of
11:54
Panic. So this idea that you
11:57
know, um, that in the
12:00
face of its kind of decline the Church kind
12:03
of uh, clutches for or
12:05
grasps after every sort of uh,
12:08
programmatic solution or structural reorganization,
12:10
which are Jenkins's uh, words into the
12:13
desperate hope that you know, its survival is just another
12:16
sort of project or organization or chart away as
12:19
he uh, puts it. And uh,
12:22
for me, I guess I See some of that
12:25
um, playing out or
12:27
um, the symptoms of
12:30
some of that sort of hyperactivity of panic playing out
12:33
in much of what is written about or
12:36
taught about the church uh today.
12:39
So uh, a lot of what is written about the church today or
12:42
taught about the church today is concerned with
12:45
this question, uh, not of what the church is,
12:47
but rather with the question of
12:50
how the church is uh, to be or what the
12:53
church is to do. Uh,
12:56
um, whether that's kind of focused on questions around
12:59
how the church is best to relate to a
13:02
post Christian secular culture, whether that's to do
13:05
with how the church relates to contemporary
13:07
ethical issues or how it's to practice worship or how
13:10
it's to engage in mission and evangelism.
13:13
But um, a lot of what is
13:16
spoken or taught about or written about the church today is
13:19
concerned with kind of what I would describe
13:21
more as matters of form and
13:24
practice of the church rather than actually
13:27
what the church is. And it seems to
13:30
me that you can't ask the how
13:32
question, uh, before you've
13:35
asked the what question.
13:38
Um, you know, you need to ask, I
13:40
think when it comes to thinking about
13:43
church, what the church is before you
13:46
then ask how we are to be the church.
13:49
And I guess part of me carries uh,
13:52
some kind of nagging fear that uh, a number of
13:55
people who are involved in some form or
13:58
another in church leadership, whether that's ordained church leadership
14:01
or non ordained church leadership, or even just
14:03
participating in the church, serving in the church in some form
14:06
or another, might struggle to kind of
14:08
articulate a uh, kind of theological response
14:11
to that question of what the church, uh,
14:14
is. And so the uh, book really
14:16
is, is designed to kind of
14:19
bring that question, um, or
14:22
to spotlight that question, um, above
14:25
everything else, uh, when it comes to uh, thinking
14:28
or speaking about uh, the church.
14:32
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's really interesting. I'm thinking
14:34
about other conversations that have been had on this
14:37
podcast my co host Martha had with Justin
14:40
Anthony who I think and Allison
14:43
Milbank, who I believe are both over in your neck of the
14:45
woods, uh, as part of the Church of England
14:49
and have similar observations,
14:52
critiques especially of the Church of
14:54
England. And I'm thinking also just
14:58
in my context,
15:01
mainline prostitism in the States. I
15:04
do wonder though, is this a
15:06
uniquely white Western
15:09
challenge?
15:11
>> David: Um, I think it certainly,
15:14
I mean I obviously write in the context of the
15:17
Western church and obviously you
15:20
know, the uh, church is clearly not in decline in the
15:23
global south or um, uh, in the
15:25
majority world. Uh, and so ah, an
15:28
aspect of this uh, perhaps is, uh,
15:31
specifically related to the
15:34
Western church. And obviously that's kind of the church
15:36
that I'm kind of seeking to address it in the book itself.
15:39
And obviously the church of which I'm a part of and
15:42
seek to kind of love and serve in that
15:45
way. And so, um, it is
15:48
very much kind of focused in that, ah,
15:50
direction in terms of, um, the kind of
15:53
constructive kind of project that I'm trying to engage in.
15:56
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's helpful. You know, I'm
15:59
also thinking, I often use this
16:02
story years ago when I was in a group,
16:05
independent, very conservative Baptist. And years
16:08
ago when I was in
16:11
Bible college,
16:13
uh, if a chapel speaker would get up and say, hey,
16:16
we need to share the gospel, or a bunch of guys would
16:19
get in the dorm, would get real excited and
16:22
let's go share the gospel of the neighborhood, we all knew
16:24
what we were doing. We all went
16:27
out knowing what we were talking about and sharing
16:30
with the neighbors. To me, it seems
16:33
like, and I'll change the analogy
16:35
here, it seems like similarly,
16:39
whether in mainline Protestantism, if we
16:42
expand that to perhaps here, neck of the woods in the
16:45
Church of England, when
16:48
folks say, let's go, we gotta whatever.
16:51
We gotta work for the church or grow the church or whatever the
16:53
church it seems like. And correct me if I'm wrong here, but I
16:56
feel like this is kind of what you're getting at in your book. There's no
16:59
real shared assumption or
17:02
understanding of what we mean by the church. Is that fair?
17:06
>> David: Yeah, I think so. I think that's
17:09
probably fair. Um, I think
17:12
my underlying kind of, um. Or
17:15
the question really, um. Or the issue I'm
17:18
really kind of wanting to push is that,
17:21
um, before we ask questions
17:23
about how the church should worship
17:26
or how the church should
17:29
engage in mission or evangelism,
17:32
um, or how the church should relate to,
17:35
as I say, a post secular Christian, uh,
17:38
culture. Or a post Christian secular culture.
17:41
Sorry, um, There has to be some more
17:44
fundamental, um, uh,
17:46
thinking undertaken about what is this thing that we
17:49
label as the church.
17:52
Um, because so often what
17:54
we think about the church,
17:56
um, translates or whether
17:59
consciously or unconsciously into practice.
18:02
Um, and so what we do kind of
18:05
betrays something about what we think of this
18:08
thing called, uh, the church. And so I
18:10
guess my concern or my project really
18:13
is simply to try and
18:16
persuade people to spend
18:19
some time thinking about that what question before
18:22
moving too quickly into the
18:25
how or the do question, which often, uh,
18:28
translates directly into form and practice.
18:31
Now, don't get me wrong, matters of form and practice in the life of the church
18:34
are fundamental and important.
18:36
>> Loren: Right.
18:36
>> David: But to me, they can only follow on
18:39
from some kind of, uh,
18:41
articulation of what the church is in and of
18:44
itself. And I guess for me, the other thing that I might
18:47
have in mind is,
18:49
um, you know, clearly
18:51
across denominations, but also, uh,
18:54
within denominations, you will get at
18:57
multiple different answers potentially, and
19:00
multiple different emphases to this question, even
19:03
of, um, perhaps even what the
19:06
church is. But, uh, I guess one of my questions
19:09
is really to try and ask, well, can we get to a level of
19:11
thinking about what the church is? An agreed level of thinking about
19:14
what the church is that might cut across some
19:17
of the, um, denominational kind of
19:20
divisions.
19:21
>> Loren: Ah.
19:22
>> David: When a lot of those denominational divisions, not all of them, but a lot of
19:24
them, uh, are focused, uh, around
19:27
matters of form, practice and
19:30
policy.
19:31
>> Loren: In that sense, I'm really again
19:34
thinking about how. What you said about the responses to
19:37
decline, you know, when it's inertia or
19:39
panic, that kind of
19:42
hyperactive panic, like you said, when
19:45
we're thinking about what to do rather than why we should,
19:48
or, you know, the.
19:50
The what rather than the why, I suppose really
19:53
can put the cart before the horse, so
19:56
to speak. Right.
19:58
>> David: Yeah. And that's basically my concern.
20:02
The focus on, um,
20:05
how we should be doing church
20:08
puts the cart, uh, before the
20:11
horse. Um, the primary
20:13
ecclesiological question, or the primary question I would
20:16
say that we need to be asking when we come to think about the
20:19
church, um, is the question of what the
20:22
church is, uh, most kind of
20:24
fundamentally. And yes, there will be kind of nuances
20:27
of emphasis around that question, but is there
20:30
something, uh, that we can get at,
20:33
um, which uh, kind of shapes,
20:35
uh, and guides therefore, um,
20:38
matters of form and practice, which
20:41
effectively would help the church in some small
20:43
way, uh, to live and act
20:47
in the world in ways that are more and
20:49
ever more faithful to its own true being.
20:53
>> Loren: Let's do this and let's have you share, if you would, just
20:56
briefly, about the four.
21:00
The four kind of,
21:02
can't say the word, ecclesiological
21:05
frameworks. I told you I'm sick, so I
21:08
got junk in the throat that's making things worse.
21:11
Share those four frameworks, if you would.
21:13
>> David: Yeah. So I guess in response to this,
21:16
or wanting to kind of foreground, I guess, this question of
21:19
what is, uh, uh, the church.
21:22
Um, the way I go about, uh, seeking to kind of
21:25
foreground that question in uh, the book is
21:28
to, uh, offer what I describe as a
21:31
typology of contemporary approaches
21:34
to Ecclesiology. And that typology
21:36
has um. Uh. Or is made up of
21:39
five different types of theological uh.
21:42
Approach to going about addressing uh.
21:45
This question of um. What the church is or thinking
21:48
about uh. The church in that
21:51
sense, uh theologically. And so,
21:54
um. The uh. Typology in and of itself
21:57
is kind of offered in one sense
21:59
as a uh. Constructive orientation
22:02
to the field of ah. Contemporary ecclesiological thought.
22:05
So um. If you're
22:08
someone who's uh. Studying ecclesiology, uh at
22:11
some point, whether that's in seminary or an
22:14
uh. Undergraduate or even postgraduate level or if
22:17
you're a church pastor wanting to think about
22:19
um. The church theologically,
22:22
then it's really offered that typology in one sense
22:25
as kind of an orientation to
22:28
numerous kind of sort of debates and emphases
22:31
uh. In sort of contemporary ecclesiological uh.
22:34
Scholarship. But of
22:37
the kind of types themselves.
22:40
Um. Um. I begin
22:42
by um. Uh. Unpacking kind of
22:45
four different types uh of
22:48
approach. Uh the first type of approach, uh.
22:51
Is something that I call empirical
22:53
ecclesiology. And
22:55
um. All of these approaches I should say
22:58
are really uh. Related
23:01
uh to uh. The question of how
23:05
um. God's action or divine
23:07
agency and human action or human
23:10
agency relate in the life of
23:13
uh. The church. And
23:15
um. Uh. I kind of
23:18
set out at ah. These different types of approach or
23:21
I draw them out in terms of their relative
23:24
emphases on divine and
23:27
human action in relation to ah. The
23:30
church itself. So uh. In the first type, as
23:32
I say, empirical ecclesiology, uh. I suggest that in
23:35
empirical ecclesiology, um. The real
23:38
emphasis, um. In this question about what
23:41
the church is. The real emphasis falls on what humans
23:44
do in the life of the
23:46
church. So the church essentially in
23:49
empirical ecclesiology is what humans do. And
23:52
therefore in um ah.
23:55
Theologians who kind of uh. I read as
23:58
offering or falling into this type of approach.
24:01
An account of human agency is really
24:04
the most important thing that they're wanting to
24:07
uh. Address. Uh. So that's really the first
24:10
um type. And obviously
24:12
um. Uh. There is
24:14
um. Something ah. Really quite vital and
24:17
strong in that approach. Because on the one hand the church is
24:20
a human community. You know, it's important that we
24:23
understand the church in that way and therefore study
24:26
the church as an empirical human community. Uh.
24:30
But that's the first uh. Type. The second type
24:32
is something I call performative
24:34
ecclesiology. Uh
24:37
and uh. Performative ecclesiology,
24:39
uh. Is um. Kind of
24:42
attentive if you like to some of the moves that
24:45
empirical ecclesiology uh wants to make.
24:48
But primarily in performative ecclesiology there's a
24:51
desire to offer ah, an account of
24:54
God's action, um in
24:57
addition to the account of human uh,
25:00
action. Performative ecclesiology.
25:02
Um, uh. Also um
25:05
uh. For the way that I read it and construct it,
25:08
it really does relate to kind of um
25:11
uh. Understanding the Church in terms of its practices, in terms
25:14
of lived ecclesial life and human
25:17
uh, practice. So in some
25:19
sense it's close or a close cousin but
25:22
slightly distinct in a way to the
25:25
first type of approach.
25:28
Um. The third type. Third type is something
25:31
I call communion ecclesiology which
25:34
kind of um,
25:36
approaches this uh, question of what the Church
25:38
is not on the sort of front footing of
25:41
human agency or the action of humans, but more
25:44
squarely on the action of God or divine
25:47
agency. Um, but the way in which it then
25:49
works that out is in relation
25:52
to um, God's own triune life
25:55
as Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Uh, and specifically by
25:58
indexing God's work or divine agency in the life of
26:01
the church to the site of uh, the
26:04
Eucharist in some form or uh,
26:06
another. And um, then type
26:09
four, um is uh, I
26:12
guess a kind of slightly more extreme version
26:15
you might say of an approach or an account
26:18
of the Church that kind of has its front foot
26:21
on the action of God and divine ah,
26:24
agency. Um, and uh.
26:27
In that fourth type, uh, I call that fourth type
26:30
ideal ecclesiology. And in that type the
26:33
Church essentially is what ah, God does,
26:36
um. And um.
26:38
Therefore kind of the kind of
26:41
questions or the critique that I pose in relation to
26:44
ideal ecclesiology is the extent to which
26:47
ah, an ideal approach to ecclesiology
26:49
marginalizes or um,
26:52
dissolves in some form or another, um, the
26:54
Church's actual human empirical form as
26:57
a community of people.
27:02
>> Loren: Yeah, thanks for sharing that.
27:03
So for our listeners and this is
27:06
helpful in your book, you have kind of a layout of
27:09
sort of I suppose on like a spectrum.
27:13
>> David: Yeah.
27:13
>> Loren: And on one side with the
27:16
empirical. Right. It's human agency is kind of at
27:19
the far end. The emphasis is on human agency. Then if
27:22
I'm understanding correctly, at the other opposite end,
27:25
the ideal ecclesiology or divine agency
27:28
is kind of at the strong emphasis
27:31
and there's some overlap obviously in all
27:33
these. I'm wondering, I don't know if you're familiar
27:36
with. I'm thinking of um. I
27:39
don't know if you're familiar with Nandra Root's work, but I'm thinking of
27:42
his pyramid in. I think it's the
27:46
Church in the age of secular mysticism. Are you familiar with that
27:49
book or his pyramid there?
27:51
>> David: I'm not familiar with that specific book. I'm
27:54
vague, sort of broadly aware of Nandra
27:57
Wirt's work. But I'm not particularly familiar with
28:00
that pyramid. Uh, so I don't know whether you want to kind of.
28:03
>> Loren: Okay, then maybe go with it. Yeah, maybe
28:05
that won't work, but I'm thinking. I guess I'll generalize the
28:08
question then a little bit more.
28:11
Certainly Nandra Root explores, kind
28:14
of based on Charles Taylor and the idea of the
28:16
secular age. Um, it seems
28:19
like if we had a lump sum here,
28:23
we've moved broadly speaking Western Christianity into
28:26
this more to use
28:29
your words I suppose, empirical or performative
28:32
take on church as human
28:35
agency. Is that a fair assessment do you think?
28:41
>> David: Um, I think uh. Whether it's
28:43
specifically uh. Tied to
28:46
um, sort of the um.
28:49
Diagnosis of kind of at the secular age
28:52
that Charles Taylor offers in his
28:55
work. Um. I think there is definitely a sense
28:58
in kind of contemporary
29:00
ecclesiology or in the study of the church
29:02
in a more contemporary period where uh.
29:05
The emphasis uh more heavily is certainly
29:08
on um, the church as a human
29:11
community that if you want to know what the church is
29:14
then the first thing you have to do is to study this human
29:16
community. Uh, almost um. You
29:19
know, drawing on the fruits of the social sciences
29:22
or um. Empirical study or
29:24
ethnography and using those
29:27
um. Uh. Non theological
29:30
disciplines you might say to kind of
29:32
understand the church as a human community. Then almost kind of
29:35
theologising um about what the
29:38
church is out of that kind of
29:41
empirical uh study. And that's certainly
29:43
probably uh today in the world of contemporary
29:46
ecclesiological thought, um
29:49
where uh. More often than not the
29:52
emphasis is placed in terms of when we come to
29:55
thinking about what the church is. Um
29:57
now you know, you can trace some uh, of
30:00
that emphasis um through uh. Various
30:03
different kind of moves if you like within ecclesiology.
30:06
There's uh, something uh, fairly recently
30:09
in the 21st century, um called the
30:12
ethnographic turn. Uh, in
30:14
ecclesiology again is this turn
30:17
towards empirical study and the fruits of empirical
30:20
study. Um, I mean that in and of itself
30:22
might be seen as um. Dependent upon
30:25
sort of a broader turn in theology towards
30:28
culture. And that
30:31
obviously has perhaps its roots if uh. You trace
30:34
it, keep on tracing back in certain
30:37
aspects of liberation theology. And so the
30:39
idea that actually theology is a reflexive
30:42
act, that actually theology arises
30:46
from um. The ground, from the root upwards
30:49
so to speak, and you theologize out of
30:52
people's um. Experience on the
30:54
ground.
30:55
So I guess that the tension that I'm trying to
30:59
think uh, about in the context of this book is
31:01
uh. Where do you start your thinking about the church?
31:04
Do you start your thinking about the church on the
31:07
ground, um, and think sort
31:10
of bottom up, so to speak, or do you
31:13
think about the church top down, you know,
31:16
from within, if you like the doctrine of God or from the
31:19
perspective of the doctrine of God, from the inner life of God and
31:22
work your way out towards the human
31:24
community. And obviously where you start
31:28
your kind of thinking about the church obviously
31:31
has implications, um, for uh,
31:34
where you uh, then go and the type of
31:37
content that you end up sort of working
31:40
out, uh, in that thinking about what the Church
31:42
is.
31:46
>> Loren: Now in my understanding correctly, that
31:49
you're advocating for kind of a middle ground
31:52
or a tension between the two. Um. Is that accurate?
31:55
>> David: Yeah. So I mean the
31:58
book sets out these first sort of four
32:01
types of approaches. And as you say,
32:04
um, they do revolve, if you like, around the
32:07
relationship between human agency and divine agency.
32:09
With empirical ecclesiology squarely on the side of
32:12
human agency, ideal ecclesiology squarely on the
32:15
side, sort of a divine agency and then performative
32:18
and communion ecclesiology kind of in the
32:21
middle, uh, of the sort of opposite poles, uh
32:24
so to speak. Um, but obviously with some overlap
32:27
between all of them.
32:29
Um.
32:30
>> Loren: Uh.
32:31
>> David: Where the book kind of goes to
32:33
is uh. To suggest
32:36
a fifth type of approach. Which is
32:39
something that I call ecclesiological
32:42
ecclesiology. And uh.
32:44
Really, um. What I'm trying to tease out in that
32:47
chapter is, is. Well, you know, having
32:50
surveyed or having constructed these
32:52
four different types of approach, having
32:55
identified uh, their
32:57
strengths, their weaknesses, uh, from a theological
33:00
perspective, is there a way to begin to think about
33:03
how you might address,
33:05
um, in speech about the Church,
33:08
um, some of those theological deficiencies,
33:11
um. Ah. That are apparent in those other four, uh.
33:14
Types. And uh. To make that
33:17
move, I, um. Go to the third
33:20
article of the Creed, um, I uh,
33:23
go to an account of uh. The personal
33:25
work of God, the Holy Spirit, as ah,
33:28
a way really to
33:30
um.
33:32
Think along with
33:34
um. A couple of other theologians, a couple
33:37
of other ecclesiological thinkers, how
33:40
an emphasis on ah, the work of the Holy
33:43
Spirit and an emphasis on pneumatology in that sense as
33:46
a doctrine in ecclesiology might help us
33:49
to think, um, divine and human
33:52
agency together in a more helpful and
33:54
constructive way, which not only allows you
33:57
to hold um, on to the fact and to
34:00
emphasize and to speak about the church as
34:02
a human community. Well, uh, but
34:05
also, uh, to relativize that
34:07
speech, um, by an appropriate emphasis
34:10
on God's own action, basically.
34:17
>> Loren: This conversation is very theoretical.
34:20
You mentioned you work at a seminary, or as
34:23
we might call it, a seminary.
34:26
And I want to think, as this is a podcast that really
34:29
does want to help pastors and church leaders,
34:32
I want to bring this more practical, this
34:35
conversation. And I think
34:37
about this tension, as
34:40
I'm understanding it, between
34:44
the pull to make church all about
34:47
human effort is the word I'll use
34:49
versus that. Opposite tension or opposite
34:52
extreme, I suppose, of just kind of like let go and
34:55
let God would be a phrase.
34:59
How do you advise, you know,
35:02
how do you advise pastors, church leaders? I mean, this is,
35:05
as you alluded to, this is something it seems
35:08
like you're wrestling with. You think the Church of England is wrestling
35:10
with about what is adequate training
35:13
for church leaders. I mean, you talked about the. In
35:16
your book Church of England, sending out, like, kind of lay leaders
35:19
to start churches. Talk more about
35:21
that.
35:24
>> David: Um. Uh, so, I mean, I guess
35:28
in terms of the sort of. The types of approach itself.
35:31
So I mean, let's just run on a sort of a
35:33
practical level with, um. I don't know. Uh, you
35:36
may, you know, cash out, for example, an ideal
35:39
approach to ecclesiology that you might think, okay, well,
35:42
here's a theologian talking about the church in. In
35:45
these terms, uh, in a very kind
35:47
of, um, theoretical or, uh,
35:50
systematic or doctrinal way, almost.
35:53
Um, but that doesn't equate or that doesn't
35:56
relate to the church down the road that I go to. You
35:59
know, that church is
36:02
broken, it's marred, it's
36:05
scarred, um, by, um, you know,
36:08
human sin, by matters of
36:11
race, ableism, um,
36:14
or sexism or whatever it might be.
36:17
Um.
36:19
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
36:19
>> David: And so the emphasis on, I guess, you
36:22
know, drawing out from empirical ecclesiology would be to
36:25
say, well, what is the space in your church
36:27
community, uh, for the reality of human
36:30
sin, for the reality of
36:33
broken lives, or is actually what
36:36
people experience in the context of your
36:39
local church, um, almost
36:42
like an unattainable ideal when it comes
36:44
to church life or living the Christian
36:47
life? Almost? Um, is everything
36:50
so perfect, in other words, uh,
36:52
presentationally or not, as the case may
36:55
be, for, uh, people actually to engage, uh,
36:58
with. Uh. So I guess that's kind of one of the
37:01
questions.
37:01
Obviously, there are other questions in terms of, you know, you've taken the
37:04
emphasis on communion, ecclesiology, for example. You
37:07
know, what role does the Eucharist
37:10
or Holy Communion or the Lord's Supper play in the worshiping life
37:13
of your church. You know, for some
37:16
theologians, as I sort of, uh, articulate in the course of
37:18
that chapter on communion ecclesiology, the church is
37:21
most herself in that kind of moment of
37:24
celebrating the uh, Eucharist of
37:27
breaking bread and wine outpoured. Um, so I
37:30
guess one of the challenges there is if the
37:32
Eucharist somehow is constitutive of what the
37:35
church is,
37:37
um, where is it
37:39
in the life of your church? To what extent does your
37:42
worshiping life kind of reflect that? And uh. So there
37:45
are all the sorts of these kind of, um, practical
37:48
questions, I guess, that kind of flow
37:51
from, um. Ah, some of these different
37:53
types of, uh, approach.
37:56
And uh, for me, I guess one of the questions is
37:59
often, uh, for church pastors or church leaders, whether
38:02
ordained or not, um, often the churches
38:05
that they. Or we seek to lead and grow,
38:08
um, whether we realize it or
38:11
not, will take on a kind of former
38:14
practice,
38:15
um, in a way which kind of
38:18
betrays what you actually think the church
38:20
is. So you might not actually think
38:23
the church is constituted at all, uh,
38:26
by broken bread and wine
38:28
outpoured. And therefore you may well end up leading a church
38:31
where actually you don't think the celebration of the Eucharist is that
38:34
important. Um, so there are
38:37
all of these different emphases which
38:40
I guess come out and might play out on a practical
38:42
level, um, which,
38:45
um. I would want kind of, uh.
38:48
Those leading local churches to kind of, uh,
38:50
wrestle with or think through, or at least think
38:53
through the sort of the implications of why they're doing
38:56
what they're doing and what does that actually
38:59
communicate in terms of what they think or believe?
39:02
Um, the church, uh, is.
39:05
Um. So I mean, if
39:08
the church is just a human community
39:11
and somehow is just this group of
39:14
people kind of gathering together,
39:17
then why is it important that
39:20
the way they live is more countercultural
39:23
than culturally relevant, so to
39:26
speak? Um,
39:28
or if,
39:30
um, the church is constituted in
39:33
its. Or by its practice. Does
39:36
doctrinal belief matters in that sense?
39:42
>> Loren: Yeah, I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the
39:45
book is you kind of really play out kind of the
39:48
logical implications
39:51
of these concepts.
39:54
I do want to again drill down even
39:57
more. Practically speaking, again, as I'm thinking about,
40:00
at least here in the States. And uh, it sounds like
40:03
they're similar challenges
40:07
over there where you are. Where,
40:11
at least in my context,
40:14
there's continued decline
40:16
of church budgets and
40:19
resources. I just had a conversation
40:21
with a middle adjudicatory leader about
40:25
bivocationality as the term we use here in the
40:28
States, being the future,
40:32
I'm fortunate that I think in my
40:35
seminary that I graduate from is fortunate to have
40:37
very, uh. Seems like a very good financial
40:40
foundation to draw from. But even then I wonder
40:43
how much can students continually,
40:46
even how much will there be
40:49
a future for theological education at least
40:52
like the classic M. Div?
40:55
What do you think about balancing this tension of again
40:58
like a, uh, well educated, theologically
41:01
educated clergy versus the
41:04
very real implications
41:07
and challenges of, I suppose, the
41:09
modern economy?
41:11
>> David: Yeah, it's a great question and
41:14
I, uh, guess.
41:14
>> Loren: And how does it affect ecclesiology? I guess lived out.
41:17
>> David: Yeah. Uh, and I guess
41:20
one of the issues that your question raises is when we
41:23
talk about theological training
41:26
of future church leaders or even current
41:29
church leaders, what do we mean by that? Um,
41:32
are we just talking about theoretical
41:34
theological education or are we
41:36
actually, uh, talking about
41:38
um, uh, training in a much more holistic way
41:41
which does actually draw on
41:45
questions, um, of um,
41:48
aspects of leadership training or
41:51
how you kind of lead a meeting or
41:55
fundraise, um, or engage with social
41:58
media and all of these different things. And
42:01
I guess I'm part of a
42:03
theological college or seminary in the States where ah, all
42:06
of our, um, students, uh, who are
42:09
training for ordained ministry are also, at the same time
42:12
as they're doing their formal theological
42:15
study, are also engaged in practical mission and
42:18
ministry in local churches. And so they're doing the two things
42:21
together. Um, so they're speaking to
42:24
one another, um, right from the get go.
42:27
And obviously, yes, today seminary training has to
42:30
be much broader than just your
42:32
classical kind of M. Div. Training, uh, because
42:35
obviously clergy today on the ground have to deal
42:38
with, and church pastors have to deal with multiple
42:41
different things. They are
42:43
asked to do many, many different things in the
42:46
context of leading churches, which, uh, perhaps
42:49
historically seminary, uh, training hasn't equipped
42:52
them well for.
42:56
>> Loren: Yeah, Let me do one more question here before
42:59
we take a break.
43:00
When we think about pastors and
43:03
church leaders on the ground leading their
43:05
churches, how would
43:08
you advise them to maybe be
43:11
cognizant of or begin a dialogue
43:14
maybe within themselves, within their leadership, even
43:17
within the broader church, about how
43:20
their perhaps implicit understanding
43:23
of church ecclesiology is shaping
43:26
their church actions and how
43:28
maybe they might want to
43:31
solicit, bring change in their congregation?
43:36
>> David: Sorry, can you just repeat that question? You kind of broke up a little
43:39
bit.
43:39
>> Loren: Yeah, sure. Just when we think about pastors
43:42
and church leaders thinking
43:45
about how would you advise Them to begin within
43:48
themselves, within their congregation,
43:51
formulating, forming conversations around
43:54
what kind of ecclesiological
43:57
approach they take currently and how, if they want
44:00
to shift or bring a different kind of approach,
44:03
how they might do that.
44:04
>> David: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I
44:07
guess I would start with some really
44:09
quite uh, basic questions, sorry,
44:12
between uh, you and your
44:15
congregation. So, um,
44:19
what do you think the Church is?
44:21
What is the Church for? What is the Church's
44:24
purpose? Um, uh,
44:27
and once you begin to tease out some of those
44:29
questions, uh, that then may lead you
44:32
in a different direction. So is the
44:35
Church simply, um, to
44:38
serve those who are already members of
44:40
it? For example, um, there was a
44:43
previous Archbishop of Canterbury, um, who a long time
44:46
ago said that um, the Church is
44:49
the only non cooperative society, uh, that
44:52
exists for the benefit of those who are not yet members
44:55
of it. Um, and
44:57
so asking some basic questions
45:00
around what you think the Church is, uh,
45:03
what is the Church for and what is its purpose
45:07
might um, then begin to help you tease out
45:10
what it is you think you're doing or why you're
45:13
doing it at, ah, when you come together as the
45:16
Church.
45:17
And I think, you know, tying this back
45:20
to um, uh, the sort of
45:23
fifth theological approach that I identify in the book as
45:25
ecclesiological ecclesiology, one of the kind of
45:29
focuses, uh, there is this idea
45:31
of um, you know, the purpose of
45:34
the Church or the Church exists not for the sake of itself.
45:37
Right. The Church exists for the sake of the world.
45:40
And so how does your gathered
45:43
church, or how does your Church as uh, the gathered
45:46
people of God in its own uh, life
45:49
express the fact, uh, that
45:53
its identity is ultimately in
45:56
its outward looking missional focus and
45:59
purpose. So I guess I would be encouraging
46:02
people to start with some very basic questions. What
46:05
is the Church or what do you think the Church
46:07
is? What do you think the Church's purpose
46:10
is? What do you think the Church is for?
46:13
Um, how do you think about the fact that
46:17
we declare in the Creed that the Church is
46:19
holy and yet it is
46:22
broken and sinful? Or how
46:25
do you think about the fact that the Church is one, as
46:28
we declare in the Creed, and yet the
46:31
Church is divided? Um, and
46:34
then begin to tease out some of those things from there.
46:37
Where people are at. Basically you've got to start where people are
46:40
at.
46:42
>> Loren: Yeah, these are important questions because I'm thinking
46:45
even just these three questions, the responses
46:48
to these will greatly shape the real
46:51
practical, lived out experience of
46:53
what the Church looks like. Whether it's
46:57
more of a very missional type
47:00
outreach Centered community, very much a worshiping
47:02
community. Um, yeah, this is. I
47:05
wish.
47:07
>> David: So I guess one of the questions is, you know, when you
47:10
know, is the church there to serve you?
47:13
Is the church there to serve your needs,
47:16
to give you your kind of spiritual
47:18
fix?
47:19
>> Loren: Yeah.
47:20
>> David: Sunday by Sunday, or whatever day of the week it is that you
47:22
gather so that you can then engage in the world
47:25
or so happening. How do you perceive, you know,
47:28
do you think the church is there to serve you? Are you simply a
47:31
consumer of what the church offers
47:33
you? Or is something deeper and something else going on
47:36
here? When we come to think about what the church
47:39
is, and therefore how we, as the
47:42
disciples of Christ, are to engage in
47:45
the church that is Christ's.
47:46
>> Loren: Body, I'm reminded, I don't know if
47:49
you've heard this term before. I mean, it goes back to
47:52
something even from my conservative Baptist days, of
47:55
this disagreement that we're talking about, like, is the
47:58
church a hospital? Is the church,
48:00
um. You know, I can't remember the other word. Like, is the church
48:03
a hospital for the world? Is it a
48:06
HAAS or a safe space, a
48:09
hotel? Or for, you know, for believers, is it a.
48:12
Is it a mission organization? So I think it's. This is a question
48:15
that, uh, believers and Christians,
48:17
it seems like across the spectrum are wrestling
48:20
with.
48:24
Well, the book is. I'm going to find the title again.
48:26
5 the Types of Ecclesiology, 5
48:29
Theological Approaches by David Emerton.
48:32
Let's take a break, and we'll come back with some closing
48:34
questions.
48:38
All right, we're back with the Reverend Dr. David
48:41
Emerton. So thank you for your time. Really appreciating
48:44
having this conversation with you.
48:47
Uh, some closing questions that we tell folks you can take as
48:50
seriously or not as you'd like to.
48:53
If you're a Pope for a day, what might that day look
48:56
like for you? What do you want to do anything like that?
48:59
>> David: If I was Pope for the day, uh,
49:02
what would I do? Uh, that's a great
49:05
question. Um.
49:07
Um,
49:11
on a less than serious note, probably, uh, find someone
49:14
to find me and bring me the best Italian
49:17
espresso that you can lay your hands on.
49:20
Um, but, um. But what would I do
49:22
if I was Pope for the day? I don't know. I think. Well,
49:26
I, uh. Probably to use the opportunity,
49:28
um, to tell
49:31
the world in whatever way I could do that
49:34
following, um, after Jesus really is the best thing that
49:37
anyone can ever do with their life.
49:39
>> Loren: Yeah.
49:40
>> David: Um. Um, that.
49:42
That, you know, it's not an easy or straightforward
49:45
path, and sometimes it's A very costly path, but, but
49:48
it is certainly a path that
49:51
um, along which
49:54
kind of real life or resurrection life comes to
49:57
us, uh, through the Spirit.
49:59
Um, I guess, um,
50:02
I might also kind of use it as an
50:04
opportunity to tell the church
50:07
or those who belong to the church
50:10
that um, wrestling or
50:13
taking time to wrestle with why we
50:16
believe what we believe as Christians, uh, whether it's
50:19
about the church or whether it's about the gospel. More
50:22
fundamentally, taking some time
50:24
to study a bit of theology at whatever
50:27
level, uh, will enlarge certainly your love for
50:30
God, your love for the church, but also your love
50:33
for um, uh, the world.
50:36
Uh, and I guess going back
50:39
to the quote that you picked up on from the
50:41
introduction of the book, I
50:44
do wholeheartedly believe that what
50:47
is perhaps most needed in the church today is as I say,
50:50
theologically astute followers of Jesus who
50:53
can out narrate a sin sick
50:56
world. Uh, and so perhaps if I was pope for the
50:59
day, I'd take the opportunity to get up on my
51:02
soapbox and um, say that a bit more
51:04
loudly.
51:05
>> Loren: Yeah, well, I like the uh. This
51:08
is pretty unique answer. I don't know how much folks who
51:11
have talked both sides of I want to do something
51:14
fun like get a great espresso and then I want to speak to the
51:17
world. So that's good.
51:20
Um, a theologian or historical Christian figure you'd want to
51:23
meet or bring back to life.
51:25
>> David: Oh, wow. Um, well, I guess
51:28
on one hand probably, um, if
51:31
my students are listening to this, they're
51:34
probably expecting um, me at this point to say
51:37
Dietrich Bonhoeffer, um, the 20th century
51:40
German theologian and church pastor who was
51:43
martyred, um, uh, by
51:46
uh, the Nazis, uh, primarily because
51:48
he was the focus of my uh, PhD research.
51:51
And I, uh, still kind of teach and do quite a little
51:54
bit of work around his theological thinking in his
51:57
life. And um. But I'm not going to give
52:00
you the obvious answer, uh, that uh, people would expect
52:03
and I'm going to say I think probably I'd
52:06
quite like to have a conversation or bring back Thomas
52:09
Aquinas.
52:10
>> Loren: Okay.
52:11
>> David: Um, and why do
52:14
I say that? Um, well, I don't know whether you know
52:17
anything about Thomas Aquinas, uh, but uh, for me
52:20
his life story is pretty interesting.
52:22
Um, there's ah, that kind of moment,
52:25
um, when his brothers, on hearing that Thomas
52:28
was planning to kind of begin a new life of sanctity
52:31
as um, a Dominican friar and follow after
52:34
God's call in his life, that his brothers kind of
52:37
go so far as to lock him up. In a room and
52:40
um, stick uh, a prostitute in his room to try and tempt
52:43
him away from his life of intended
52:45
sanctity. And uh, legend has it that
52:48
Thomas uh, responded to this temptation by
52:50
chasing the uh, prostitute out of his rooms with a
52:53
log that he picks up from the fire
52:56
in uh, the corner. But he's got a pretty uh,
52:59
interesting uh, life story. But I think
53:02
personally at the moment I'm, I'm really quite fascinated to be
53:05
honest, in the way that Thomas approaches his study of
53:08
theology. Um, and I guess I see
53:10
this um, sort of in evidence, I guess
53:13
in his really ah, famous work the Summer
53:16
Theologica. And the way that he kind of
53:19
works how I would see it kind of
53:22
charitably, um, graciously
53:25
and plausibly if you like, uh, to think himself
53:28
into the shoes of those people that he ultimately
53:30
goes on to dispute with in the context
53:33
of his theological thinking. And so
53:36
I guess I'd love to talk to him a little bit about
53:38
um, how he
53:41
sees the work and task of
53:44
uh, theology around this idea that
53:47
theology and the study of theology is this kind of
53:50
um, uh,
53:52
deep and sustained act not only of
53:55
listening, uh, well, to the thoughts and thinking of other
53:58
people, but kind of doing the hard work
54:00
to kind of think yourself into their shoes
54:04
so that you can then respond to their thinking graciously
54:07
and charitably, uh, with skill, even if
54:10
you go on to ultimately disagree uh,
54:13
with them. And I'd uh, love to pick Thomas's
54:15
brains uh, if he was alive because I
54:18
think there's much that the modern day church or the contemporary
54:21
church, uh, could learn from Thomas in terms
54:24
of um, about the sort of the
54:27
nature of theological debate almost
54:30
um, about the nature of theological disagreement.
54:33
Um, you know, whatever else Thomas is doing. This is
54:36
certainly not kind of sound, biting, it's certainly not
54:39
um, 140 characters, um,
54:41
on a platform formerly known as Twitter.
54:45
This is kind of careful, sustained listening
54:48
to one another. Um, and so I'd love
54:50
to kind of pick his brains a little bit about that,
54:53
about how he sees almost the work of theology
54:57
and the way it's to be done kind of humbly and prayerfully
54:59
and generously in that sense. So Thomas
55:02
Aquinas. There you go.
55:04
>> Loren: Yeah, that's good.
55:05
What do you think history will remember from our current time
55:08
and place?
55:09
>> David: Oh, uh, crumbs. What will history
55:12
remember from our current time and place?
55:17
>> Loren: Um, this
55:20
is a big hour since we are recording across the
55:23
ocean here.
55:25
>> David: Um,
55:31
I mean I
55:33
honestly am not sure what history will remember
55:36
from this Time and season that we're in at the
55:39
moment, um, probably the development of
55:42
AI, um, and
55:44
whether if that progresses in the
55:47
way it seems to be progressing,
55:49
um, ah, whether people will love
55:53
us for it or completely ru us or
55:56
hate us for it,
55:57
um, I imagine,
56:00
you know, our relation to
56:03
the created world,
56:06
what we actually ah, leave future
56:08
generations. Um, I
56:11
would hope that people
56:13
would um,
56:18
reflect quite critically on um,
56:20
certain political movements and
56:24
um, certain trends and emphases in,
56:26
in politics and in uh, the life of
56:29
today's society. Whether you're kind of this side of the
56:32
pond or your side of the pond.
56:35
Um, but, um. But yeah, it's hard. It's hard to say,
56:37
isn't it? Um, I mean, I hope. What I really hope and
56:40
pray, what history will remember from this
56:43
current time and place is that,
56:46
um, the church was faithful to
56:49
the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Um,
56:52
but
56:54
that's um, a challenging thing at the moment.
56:58
>> Loren: Well, that is kind of the last question we always ask
57:01
folks, and it's a related question. What are your hopes
57:04
for the future of Christianity? Would that be your hope then?
57:07
That the church was faithful?
57:10
>> David: Um,
57:13
yeah, I guess my hope for the future of
57:16
Christianity and, and sort of the church
57:19
would be that, um,
57:22
we as individual Christians,
57:24
but we as the church
57:27
corporate, um, I guess might
57:30
come to express ever more faithfully, both in
57:33
form and practice, in word and deed, uh,
57:36
the conviction that Christ alone
57:39
is our hope. Um,
57:42
and. And thereby kind of recover, I guess,
57:45
a courageous confidence, uh, in the
57:47
truth of God's gospel,
57:50
um, both internally within the life of the church, but
57:53
also externally out in the public square
57:56
in the life of, um, the
57:59
world, um, that we would be known
58:02
more for the name of Jesus than
58:04
abuse scandals or,
58:07
um, being quiet
58:10
or irrelevant.
58:12
>> Loren: Yeah. Well, I really
58:15
appreciate this conversation, really encourage folks to check
58:18
out, um, the book and your work.
58:20
Do you have folks, do you have a way for folks to connect with
58:23
you, um, website, anything?
58:27
>> David: I don't have a personal website. Um, the, uh,
58:30
best way to connect with me, uh, is I have a LinkedIn
58:33
account. People, uh, can find me on LinkedIn.
58:36
Um, otherwise, uh, I'm not on social media,
58:39
um, which in today's world,
58:41
um, you know, perhaps it's not the best way
58:44
to further uh, your own career. But there we
58:47
go. I have my reasons, ah, for that.
58:50
Um, but otherwise you can find me through,
58:53
um, my theological college's
58:55
website, uh, which is Summer Litus
58:58
College. So if people Google Summerlitus
59:01
College, that's N, E L L I T U
59:04
S Mellitus um, you can
59:06
find me through that, um, and you can obviously
59:09
then contact me by email, uh, through that, uh,
59:12
forum as well.
59:14
>> Loren: Well, thank you so much for your conversation. I, uh, always
59:17
leave folks with a word of peace. So may God's peace be with
59:19
you.
59:20
>> David: And be upon you, too.
59:29
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
59:32
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59:35
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59:38
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