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Knitting for a sense of achievement with Liz O'Riordan · Why I Knit

0:04
Mia Hobbs: Hello and welcome to the last episode of series two
0:07
of the Why I Knit podcast. My name is Dr. Mia Hobbs and I'm a
0:11
clinical psychologist who's passionate about knitting and
0:14
its benefits for our mental wellbeing. Each episode I
0:17
interview a different knitter about why they knit and how it
0:20
benefits their mental health. Thank you so much to everybody
0:24
who's listened to season two, and especially to the people
0:27
who've got in touch by email or on Instagram to let me know
0:29
they've enjoyed the podcast, or that knitting has been important
0:33
to their mental health, or about projects they've been involved
0:36
in to use knitting therapeutically. It's been such
0:40
a pleasure to hear from everybody who's got in touch and
0:43
to know that other people also believe strongly in the
0:46
therapeutic potential of knitting and have been seeing it
0:49
in action, either in their own lives or to help other people.
0:53
I'm already booking guests and starting to record series three,
0:56
which I hope to be releasing in the summer but if you've got a
1:00
suggestion of a great guest then please do email me at
1:06
mia@therapeuticknitting.org. This week on the podcast I'm
1:10
joined by Liz O'Riordan. Liz is a breast surgeon who's also
1:14
experienced cancer herself. She is now an author, podcaster,
1:19
speaker and also a knitter. Please note that during our
1:23
conversation, we do talk about cancer, infertility and
1:26
depression, but mostly about knitting.
1:33
Hi Liz, welcome to the podcast.
1:36
Liz O'Riordan: Thank you, Mia.
1:37
Mia Hobbs: So I always start the conversation with asking how you
1:39
learnt to knit!
1:41
Liz O'Riordan: Crikey. So I think I first learnt to knit on
1:44
one of those wooden French dollies.
1:46
Mia Hobbs: Oh yes.
1:47
Liz O'Riordan: My dad's mum and my own mum would do a lot of
1:50
knitting and I was desperate to fiddle with it, so they got me
1:52
one of those. It's like a wooden tube with four spiky nails and
1:55
you kind of knit and get this long, long tube and I'd be at
1:57
school with my little thing with this growing strand of wool.
2:00
What are you going to do with it?
2:01
Mia Hobbs: That's what I've always wondered! What do you do
2:03
with it? [Laughs]
2:05
Liz O'Riordan: I love the making but I hate the joining together
2:09
and sewing up and cutting off the ends. You're meant to roll
2:12
it up into a big long rug in a big circle, but life is just too
2:14
short. So I just had rounds of long knitted ribbons. And that
2:17
was how I started.
2:18
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so you were what kind of age?
2:21
Liz O'Riordan: I must have been about six or seven, I think.
2:23
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And when did you graduate to needles?
2:27
Liz O'Riordan: I think that was about 8/9/10-ish with some very
2:30
basic needles doing a scarf. My mum knitted amazing things like
2:33
Kaffe Fassett patterns but, you know, we'll start simple. And I
2:37
just loved the fact that I could produce something, and I would
2:39
knit clothes for my Barbie dolls because they were really simple
2:42
to do, and then in my teenage years I started knitting cuddly
2:46
toys. Some for me and some to give to people as presents. And
2:50
some of my friends at school were doing it. It was like the
2:52
GCSE revision break and we'd be there knitting kind of Christmas
2:58
trees and farmers and we'd get the whole set. And it was just
3:00
really nice to produce something positive when you're trying to
3:03
cram your head full of stuff.
3:05
Mia Hobbs: Yeah! And actually, I've ended up interviewing a few
3:09
doctors who (and certainly for me) found that it was a really
3:13
good antidote to academic learning along the way!
3:17
Liz O'Riordan: And, I guess, being physical. Doing something
3:19
with my hands rather than just sitting at a book writing. Using
3:23
different muscles in the hands as well.
3:24
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And I felt like it uses different muscles in my
3:26
brain or uses a different part of my brain. So it kind of
3:29
allows the learning to percolate a bit when my hands are busy, I
3:32
Mia Hobbs: I'm interested that you had peers who were knitting,
3:32
feel.
3:32
Liz O'Riordan: And the rhythm. Just getting into that rhythm of
3:34
knitting. It's kind of calming in a way. You don't need to
3:36
because I think a lot of us grew up as the only knitter in the
3:37
think; you're just moving the needles and the wool.
3:46
classroom.
3:48
Liz O'Riordan: My mum knitted. She knitted most of her life and
3:51
she's given me clothes that she knitted, maternity tops that she
3:54
wore when she was pregnant with me.
3:56
Mia Hobbs: Oh, wow! That's amazing.
3:58
Liz O'Riordan: She's always been knitting, sewing, cross stitch,
4:01
crochet. We had to move house because there weren't enough
4:04
wall space to put all our cross stitches on. It was always a
4:07
very crafty kind of... It's autumn, the nights are getting
4:10
darker, let's get all the wool and the threads out.
4:13
Mia Hobbs: And have you knitted or crafted the whole way
4:16
through? Were there ever times where you had significant gaps
4:19
where you didn't do any?
4:20
Liz O'Riordan: I didn't knit during university. I think it
4:24
felt... It would almost take too long to do a project and I was
4:27
so, so busy as a doctor, but I did do cross stitches. I think I
4:30
found that a bit more technically challenging as well
4:33
when I needed to concentrate on something else. But as a junior
4:36
doctor, I started knitting again. I did a PhD and taught
4:40
half the girls there to knit. We were making scarves on really
4:43
big size 20 needles. "Look, you can make scarves for all your
4:45
friends!" And especially when those fluffy wools came out with
4:49
all the bits in the threads. They were special, like, mesh
4:52
wools. I got everyone knitting scarves. I've always been very
4:55
good at making things that don't fit me. Life is too short to
5:00
make a gauge or make a swatch because of course my tension
5:02
will be fine! When The Killing came out about 10 years ago,
5:07
because we watched it on a flight on my honeymoon, I
5:09
thought "I'm going to make the jumper!" I bought the book and I
5:11
did The Killing jumper, and it would fit a tiny 12 year old
5:14
with no bust. Because the minute I did the colour work, the
5:17
tension was really small. I was like, "I can't get this over my
5:19
head! My beautiful sweater." So I've had to learn.
5:26
Mia Hobbs: it. But I hadn't knitted anything all-over
5:28
colourwork, so I was used to having a yoke, which was
5:37
probably usually a bit tight, but then a bit of a more
5:40
forgiving body. I am knitting myself a new version of it as
5:44
kind of a Christmas jumper, and giving that to my nine year old.
5:49
[Laughs] I think it will fit her better.
5:50
Liz O'Riordan: Its so depressing. I need to knit like
5:52
I operate: practice and prepare and make sure. I think, "No, I
5:55
just want to start! I'm too impatient."
5:56
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Because you can save that for operating, can't
5:59
you, and break the rules a bit in knitting.
6:02
Liz O'Riordan: Exactly! Yeah.
6:02
Mia Hobbs: Okay, so you had a bit of a break. So you were kind
6:05
of a multicrafter really. Do you still do multiple different
6:10
Liz O'Riordan: I do. I think I get bored. I like to have
6:10
crafts?
6:13
several projects on the go. I must have five or six cross
6:17
stitches that I haven't finished from a while ago. I'm a bad
6:19
finisher. And I've got three jumpers that still need sewing
6:22
together, which is I what I intend to do.
6:23
Liz O'Riordan: They're knitted. I tend to do jumpers in the
6:23
Mia Hobbs: Are they knitted?
6:24
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Do you think the gardening also occupies that
6:25
round that you knit down without the seams. And I started making
6:29
my own clothes three or four years ago. I thought, "I have
6:32
too many clothes and I buy things I don't like and there's
6:35
so much landfill. So I'm going to make things I actually like."
6:39
And that's been fun. Again, fabric is free and wool is free.
6:42
[Laughs] Good job my husband has no idea just how big my stash
6:45
is! I think it's always been a wintry thing. In the summer, I'm
6:49
out in the garden. But in autumn/winter, I'll start
6:52
getting the needles out and just knitting, and it's something to
6:55
do in front of the telly. And I'd miss it if I wasn't doing
6:58
something with my hands. And I think when I had to stop
7:01
operating because of side effects of breast cancer
7:04
treatment, it was that I need to use my hands. Knitting was a
7:08
great way of using both of them and just, I guess, calming me
7:11
down and getting into that rhythm again.
7:18
same space in the summer, in terms of doing something with
7:21
your hands? Is it a similar feeling?
7:23
Liz O'Riordan: I think so. I think it's... I want to feel
7:26
useful. And it's producing something. So you plant a seed
7:29
and you see it grow. This is a question though. Why do jumpers
7:33
weigh more than the balls of wool? Because they do!
7:39
Mia Hobbs: [Laughs] Do they? What makes you think they weigh
7:40
more than the balls of wool? Do they actually?
7:42
Liz O'Riordan: I've not done it, but I was just thinking... I've
7:44
just knitted a small summer vest and I thought, "I've got the
7:47
four or five balls of wool, which feel quite light, and then
7:50
the jumper itself just feels heavy." Am I just going mad?
7:52
Anyway, I digress.
7:53
Mia Hobbs: It's all the effort and the love and the therapy
7:57
that you've knitted into it. It must be that, mustnt it?
7:59
Liz O'Riordan: I think so.
8:00
Mia Hobbs: Either that or it's dog hair. [Laughs]
8:04
Liz O'Riordan: A lot of dog hair.
8:05
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Okay, so you've knitted fairly steadily. It
8:09
sounds like you started knitting some quite complicated things
8:12
quite early on, because I think toys are quite fiddly and
8:15
involve quite a lot of shaping. So you were knitting properly
8:18
from patterns even at that stage as a teenager.
8:20
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And that doesn't at all sound like
8:20
Liz O'Riordan: Yes. And I think it's me... I'm one of those
8:22
annoying people who can see something once and pick it up
8:24
someone who's a surgeon! [Laughs]
8:25
really, really quickly, and I like a challenge. And I don't
8:28
want to knit a boring stocking stitch scarf. I want to knit a
8:31
scarf with all the bells and whistles. I think my mum had got
8:35
a Reader's Digest book of knitting and crafts, and I would
8:38
knit swatches of all the different cable patterns and
8:41
things. And I think it's that challenge. I want to do
8:43
something that's interesting and difficult.
8:51
Liz O'Riordan: Not at all! [Laughs] When I was having
8:53
chemotherapy I started knitting, and I'd seen entrelac knitting.
8:59
Mia Hobbs: Oh yeah, that rings a bell but I don't actually know
9:01
what it is.
9:01
Liz O'Riordan: You knit left and right on the needle, and you
9:03
kind of knit triangles going one way and then triangles going the
9:07
other way, so it all joins together. People knit in
9:10
different ways, and I physically move the wool over the needle,
9:13
whereas my mother-in-law will just keep it and use the
9:16
fingers. I can't do that. I had to learn to do continental
9:19
knitting, so rather than turning the work, I could knit left and
9:23
then knit right, which did blow my mind. I was high as a kite on
9:25
Mia Hobbs: And it all worked? You didn't look back at it and
9:26
morphine after my mastectomy, so I knitted an entrelac scarf. In
9:30
12 hours. I was wide awake the next morning, a bit high but,
9:33
"Look, I've made a scarf!"
9:38
think...
9:39
Liz O'Riordan: No, because again, once I get into the
9:41
rhythm of the pattern, you know what you're doing. It's very
9:43
simple. It was just learning that technique. And then when it
9:46
came back again, I started doing brioche knitting, and instead of
9:49
doing brioche knitting with a nice thick, sensible wool, I
9:52
thought, "No, I'm going to do it with two mohair strands of wool
9:55
knitting this cobweb scarf."
9:56
Mia Hobbs: Wow! And how did that go?
9:59
Liz O'Riordan: There was a bit of swearing and a lot of
10:01
unpicking, but it's beautiful. And I've tried to do another
10:04
one, but I just don't have the heart to go through the effort
10:07
to make it again.
10:08
Mia Hobbs: I'm sure the unpicking bit, when that
10:10
happens, must be...
10:10
Liz O'Riordan: Because it's so lacy, you can't...
10:12
Mia Hobbs: Well, mohair's tricky anyway. I'm knitting with mohair
10:15
at the moment. And in terms of the types of projects you
10:19
gravitate towards, is it always the more complicated unchartered
10:23
territory you're kind of mountain climbing in your
10:26
knitting projects? Or are there times where you think actually,
10:28
at the moment, what I need for my mental health or wellbeing is
10:32
some really simple something.
10:34
Liz O'Riordan: It's exactly like that. So I do knit a lot of
10:37
scarves and hats and shawls, where I can just sit and watch
10:39
TV and knit and not have to think, because they're the
10:43
things that I wear most often. So I knitted just a very boring
10:47
cream and navy striped Breton jumper, but I've worn it so much
10:50
and it was so simple to knit. And then challenging projects
10:53
are often gifts for other people. I knitted a load of tiny
10:57
little white hearts to give to people at Christmas, and I'll
11:00
knit little elephants and things, but they are quite
11:02
finicky. And often it's the joy of something that's easy, that
11:05
knits up quite quickly, rather than taking months and months
11:08
and months.
11:09
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And how much, for you, is it about the process
11:12
of the knitting (which it sounds like there is something kind of
11:15
soothing for you, the repetitive movements) versus the finishing
11:20
a thing and it having a life as an object, like being given to
11:24
someone or you wearing it?
11:27
Liz O'Riordan: It's the making.
11:28
Mia Hobbs: It's the making. So more process than product.
11:30
Liz O'Riordan: Definitely. I knit a load of things because I
11:32
want to knit. I don't need another 50 scarves and I don't
11:35
need another jumper, but I'm going to knit a jumper. And I've
11:37
enjoyed making it, and then I try it on and say, "Yeah, it's
11:40
nice, but actually..." Yeah, it's the making. That's really interesting.
11:44
Mia Hobbs: So you would do that even if you were on a desert
11:45
island and had one ball of yarn?
11:47
Liz O'Riordan: I think so. I'd still be knitting.
11:49
Mia Hobbs: You would unravel it and re-knit it.
11:50
Liz O'Riordan: So it's funny, as a consultant surgeon operating,
11:50
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, I think so.
11:53
Mia Hobbs: So would I.
11:53
when you've done the magic, the juniors come in and sew up the
11:57
scar and make it look pretty and put the dressing on. And I
12:01
almost need that for my knitting. "Here you are, here it
12:04
is. Can you now sew the ends in and finish the seams and stretch
12:08
and block it, please? Because I've done the fun bit!" How do
12:12
you get used to loving that bit? I don't know.
12:15
Mia Hobbs: I think I've become more tolerant of all of the
12:19
fiddly bits of knitting over time, actually. I used to
12:23
sometimes leave things with just ends in a knitting basket for
12:27
ages! But now I do that less, I think.
12:31
Liz O'Riordan: I've learnt to do the ends as I go along, which
12:35
makes a big difference.
12:36
Mia Hobbs: That helps. And I think sometimes I, to be honest,
12:39
depending on what I'm knitting, can get a bit of RSI, so I think
12:42
sometimes to change the task, it's quite helpful to have some
12:45
ends to do. Or you can do it while you're doing multitasking,
12:49
perhaps, because you don't have to really use your brain. For
12:51
example, if you were following a pattern, you could do it while
12:55
you were on a bus or something and it might feel less painful.
12:58
Liz O'Riordan: I was knitting on a train and there was an old guy
13:00
next to me who knitted as well, and we just spent the next hour
13:03
talking about his knitting projects. It's amazing how
13:06
people come out of the woodwork. And this is the thing... Another
13:10
knitter I follow, she's an Australian breast surgeon called
13:13
Rhea Liang. She was knitting at a conference, and loads of men
13:16
around her said, "You can't pay attention, you're knitting."
13:19
"Sorry, I'm paying far more attention than you are on your
13:22
phone. I can multitask." Another friend of mine was knitting
13:25
things for a craft stall in an MDT meeting, and everyone thinks
13:28
she's crazy. But actually, it almost makes you concentrate
13:31
more on what you're hearing.
13:33
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. Do you find that? I would always, in a
13:36
business meeting or that kind of discussion or training, I would
13:40
struggle to sit still for six hours and learn about something
13:44
without having knitting. And I think the older I've got, the
13:46
more confident I've got. And I think also the more awareness
13:49
there is that actually humans are not really designed to sit
13:51
still for six hours and just listen. And if I have a very
13:55
simple basic sock where I'm just knitting in circles, stocking
13:58
stitch, that would 100% improve my concentration, like you said,
14:02
stop my brain looking for distractions that would be more
14:05
distracting, like looking on my phone.
14:07
Liz O'Riordan: Which is what everyone else is doing, aren't
14:08
they?
14:08
Mia Hobbs: Yes! And would you do that too?
14:12
Liz O'Riordan: I would. I never did it at work. I think I'm
14:15
always so busy writing in meetings, it was really hard to
14:17
do that. But especially on Zoom calls and things, I'll often
14:20
have the knitting there. And it's just a way of focusing.
14:22
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. So you would use it for that reason as well.
14:23
In terms of what you think knitting brings your life, in
14:27
terms of your wellbeing generally, how do you think it
14:34
helps?
14:35
Liz O'Riordan: That's a really interesting question. I've never
14:37
thought about what it brings, because it's just part of me. I
14:40
think it's being able to make something and be proud of it and
14:46
feel I've accomplished something. Because now I've
14:47
retired, I don't do anything and it's quite nice just to see I've
14:50
made something. But it calms me down. I guess it's the
14:54
mindfulness. Kind of the buzzword. It's just a way of
14:56
relaxing and switching off. But it's that challenging. It's
14:59
getting my brain, "Let's just tackle something really big" and
15:01
keeping me thinking. And I like that. I like learning new
15:04
things. What can I do next? What's different? And god, it's
15:07
amazing how you can just get lost scrolling down knitting
15:09
patterns. It's another way of getting bored and kind of
15:11
doom-scrolling, but knitting patterns and knitting bloggers.
15:13
But I love that whole... It's a really safe, friendly world.
15:17
Knitters are great people. It's like a whole other community of
15:21
friends that I didn't know existed, now,it's kind of opened
15:23
up online, if that makes sense.
15:25
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, definitely. I don't know whether that's part
15:28
of the process that you enjoy, like the planning of the project
15:31
and the picking of the colours, or whether it's more the actual
15:35
action, or both.
15:37
Liz O'Riordan: I am technical but I don't think I'm creative.
15:41
I find it very hard to imagine a jumper in another colour,
15:44
because I see what's on the pattern. I find it very, very
15:46
hard. If you asked me to draw something, I'd say, "Give me
15:48
something to copy." But I couldn't draw from my brain. So
15:51
it's often me looking at a pattern with a colour. I like
15:54
that I need it. And then once I've knitted it, I may think,
15:56
"Oh, I can change that because it'll look better." But for me,
15:59
it's the doing. It's the getting stuck in and using my hands and
16:03
telling my husband to stop talking to me when I'm casting
16:06
on.
16:07
Mia Hobbs: [Laughs] When you're counting stitches.
16:08
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, that's frustrating.
16:08
Liz O'Riordan: He knows! "When I'm counting, don't come near
16:10
me!" And he'll start shouting out numbers. "No! This is the
16:13
fifth time!" And it's always when it's like 300 stitches. "Go
16:15
Liz O'Riordan: He doesn't understand it. It's really funny
16:17
away!"
16:19
because he's a surgeon. I'm trying to show him, "Look, you
16:21
could knit. It's just knots. It's just knots and needles."
16:24
"No, I don't understand."
16:25
Mia Hobbs: I was interested that you said you've started making
16:27
your own clothes. Is that over and above knitting, or sewing?
16:31
Liz O'Riordan: As well. I think, again, knitting is more a winter
16:34
thing. I don't really like knitted summer jumpers and it
16:36
feels weird knitting a big heavy jumper or scarf in the summer
16:39
because I'm not going to wear it then. And I like just knitting a
16:42
load of simple jersey tops that fit me. Just a really nice
16:45
jersey. And I like, again, that process with the sewing machine,
16:48
of the knitting and the planning and the making. Although it's
16:51
hard because I live in Suffolk. Where I live, there aren't many
16:54
fabric shops so you buy fabric online. Same with wool, really:
16:57
you order it online and think, "Oh wait, this is soft." Or,
16:59
"It's scratchy, it's not what I thought it would be." It's a
17:02
couple of hours of me-time as well. It's guilt-free, selfish,
17:05
this is just me in my room with my machine and my needles, just
17:08
doing something for me.
17:09
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And how does it affect your wellbeing once
17:13
you're wearing the finished product?
17:16
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, it's a really nice feeling and when
17:18
someone says, "Oh, I like your top!" you think, "I made it."
17:20
It's a bit of "Hey, look at me, I'm amazing!" but it's really
17:23
nice to think I've got something that nobody else has that fits
17:26
me perfectly. Like a jumper, when you know you can add three
17:29
inches onto the sleeves because they're never long enough. I
17:32
love that you can customise the clothes to make them fit you.
17:34
Mia Hobbs: Because I feel like that was something that
17:37
surprised me when I started knitting garments, because for a
17:39
long time, I wasn't really knitting... it might have been
17:41
shawls or scarves or hats, but it wasn't really like... you
17:44
know, now I wear things I've made every day. And like you
17:47
said, I had then a barren point in the summer where I thought,
17:50
"I'm not wearing anything I've made!" and then turned to
17:52
sewing. But I feel like it's had a very transformative
17:56
relationship in my... is it body image or I suppose my
18:02
relationship to clothing, for sure. But also, if someone gives
18:08
me a compliment, it's not so much about how I look. I can
18:11
transform it into a compliment that means something more to me.
18:15
It's like, "Look, you're clever!" or "You're creative!"
18:17
because I made it myself.
18:18
Liz O'Riordan: Yes, exactly. And they're like, "Wow, you made
18:20
that? I could never do that." And you think, "Oh, actually,
18:22
it's not just knitting! This is actually something that is quite
18:25
impressive for a lot of people." But then you want them to know
18:27
how simple it is. But I think I am more aware of what my body is
18:31
like, now I'm having to fit it and accept that this is my
18:33
shape, learn what works for me and what doesn't. And actually
18:36
appreciate jumpers and scarves and clothes in shops, and
18:41
realise what's gone in, and is this made well? And I'll look at
18:44
the seams and think, "Actually, this isn't. I could do better
18:47
Mia Hobbs: And is it easier... you know you said about that
18:47
than this."
18:51
kind of coming to terms with how your body is now? Has that been
18:55
more challenging if you're making it yourself? Or is that
18:58
easier than if you were buying in a shop, where you might have
19:01
an idea about what size or what shape? You know, can you
19:04
customise it more, and does that feel better, or not
19:06
particularly?
19:07
Liz O'Riordan: I think the problem for me is that I don't
19:09
have a left breast, and I don't wear a prosthetic or a bra
19:12
because of pain, so I am lopsided. My other side isn't
19:15
particularly big, but it is very noticeable. And especially in a
19:19
big jumper, when you've got one breast sticking out. And it's
19:21
kind of patterns or things to distract it. Or when you're
19:25
sewing clothes, it's how you have to tweak the neckline so it
19:28
doesn't gape, or I can't wear that. And that was really
19:30
challenging, seeing beautiful patterns and making them up
19:32
thinking, "No, this doesn't work. And I don't know how to
19:36
change it for my shape." And it's kind of working out pattern
19:40
placement on jumpers so it's not very obvious where I don't want
19:43
it to be seen. I think that's been really challenging. And
19:46
learning how to measure yourself properly. And actually
19:48
forgetting that small could be a large in a different size, and
19:51
that's just how it's made, and it's just a number. Rather than
19:55
being, "Oh, I'm always a size 10" or "I'm always a size..."
19:57
Well, it depends which shop you're in. And that's the same
19:59
with dressmaking patterns, especially the Vogue ones from
20:03
the 1970s and 80s. So like a size 8 in Vogue is like a size
20:06
12 now, and you just have to forget all of that.
20:09
Mia Hobbs: Yes. But I think you're right. I haven't got to
20:12
the level of adapting patterns for sewing. That's quite
20:16
challenging, I think.
20:18
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, a lot of YouTube videos. And it takes
20:20
time, because you have to trace out the pattern, then put it
20:23
onto paper, and then cut it, and then get out the muslin, then
20:25
make a thing, and does it fit, and then do it again. Whereas
20:28
you just want to go straight to the cutting. Like making a
20:30
swatch in knitting. You know you should. [Laughs]
20:33
Mia Hobbs: But you just don't. [Laughs]
20:34
Liz O'Riordan: But you don't. And actually I've learned to do
20:36
that now. It's not worth spending all that time on this
20:39
beautiful wool, if I'm not going to do a swatch and make sure it
20:42
fits me. So I have finally learnt that.
20:44
Mia Hobbs: I'd like to say I have, but there are certain... I
20:45
Liz O'Riordan: Oh no! [Laughs]
20:47
have just recently made a hat that I now need to find someone
20:51
with a very big head who'd like to appreciate it! [Laughs]
20:55
Mia Hobbs: Would you say knitting is your main craft now,
20:56
or do you still do... are you crocheting as well?
20:59
Liz O'Riordan: I've done a bit of crocheting. I made a yellow
21:01
elephant to go with my podcast, and I was going to make them for
21:04
all the guests. But I find crochet really painful on my
21:06
hands because I don't do it very... and when you flip
21:08
between the two, it's almost like getting your hand muscles
21:11
going again. I think it's knitting in the winter and
21:13
sewing in the summer. But I will always knit. I just love that
21:16
feel of the needles and seeing something grow and the challenge
21:19
of reading a pattern. And I think I'm really glad I did it
21:22
at a such young age. It's always been part of my life, and it's
21:26
something I can hopefully pass on to my own grandchildren.
21:28
Mia Hobbs: Do you think you used it for its mental health
21:31
benefits when you were younger?
21:31
Liz O'Riordan: Definitely.
21:33
Mia Hobbs: Because I think I probably did, but I don't think
21:36
I actually realised I was doing it at the time. I think it
21:39
actually was very late to dawn on me how I was actually using
21:44
it. But I definitely really was.
21:46
Liz O'Riordan: I've never thought of that, but I think
21:47
you're right. So I've had serious depression twice in my
21:50
life, and knitting was something I did. I may just be in the
21:53
house with my cats or my dog, but I would knit and I could
21:55
make something and it kind of made me feel that I'm still...
21:58
useful is the wrong word, but I think it is... It's a really
22:02
good way of helping your mental health and just centring you
22:05
again, and helping you... Sometimes it's good thinking
22:08
time, and that can be bad because you're alone with your
22:10
needles thinking, "Oh my goodness..." I just tend to have
22:12
Friends repeats on so I don't need to concentrate. Just
22:14
background noise, because it can be really... Finding the right
22:17
thing to do as well. But yeah, I think it's been really important
22:20
for my own peace of mind and sanity throughout all of my
22:23
life. And I can almost look at a jumper and say, "Oh, I did that
22:26
when I was feeling that. And I made that scarf when I was
22:29
feeling that."
22:29
Mia Hobbs: And how does it feel to have those kind of reminders
22:32
in physical form?
22:34
Liz O'Riordan: It's weird. In some ways it's a bit sad, being
22:36
reminded of how you felt at that time. But then you look at the
22:38
scarf and think, "No, that came out of that. There are positives
22:43
to come out of it." And I think that it's really nice to see the
22:47
good when you are in the middle of something difficult.
22:49
Mia Hobbs: Because I think it can be a complicated
22:51
relationship, can't it? I've spoken to quite a few people
22:53
who've used knitting during periods of grief, for example.
22:57
And then you could have very mixed associations with that
23:00
item.
23:01
Liz O'Riordan: So when I found out I couldn't have children
23:05
because chemo made me infertile, I suddenly started grieving for
23:08
the loss of the baby I now knew I really wanted and could never
23:10
have. My brother had had a son and I'd knitted all the baby
23:16
clothes, and I couldn't wait to knit them for my own baby,
23:18
because they're so cute. And I couldn't. And so what I then did
23:23
was start knitting clothes for premature babies. And you can
23:28
almost knit... this sounds really awful... either knit
23:31
clothes for them when they're very, very small, or clothes to
23:33
be buried in. And they give you the size for a baby hat that
23:36
fits on an egg. And they were teeny teeny tiny, and I was
23:39
knitting all of them and I just thought, "No, this is not good
23:41
for me. It was a nice idea, but doing it is just bringing it
23:44
back home." So I had to stop. And I think it's okay to stop a
23:48
project. I can't not finish a book if I don't like it. And if
23:53
I'm knitting a jumper and I'm just not enjoying it, I have to
23:55
learn: it's okay to stop.
23:56
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. I allow myself to stop with a book too.
23:57
Liz O'Riordan: I've never thought of that: why do you
23:59
[Laughs] If I don't care if the characters live or die, I think,
24:02
"Well, I don't need to find out." When I do my therapeutic
24:06
knitting groups, like in schools, I talk a lot about how
24:09
it's really important for you to think about what you need the
24:13
project to give you right now. And if it's not giving you that,
24:16
it's not the right thing for right now. And it might not be
24:18
knit? I thought I just knit because it's what I do. But
24:20
the wrong thing forever. You know, maybe that jumper needs to
24:23
go and sit and hibernate somewhere. But if what you need
24:27
for your life is a sense of achievement, maybe you need
24:30
something a lot smaller that you're going to finish, and get
24:33
the sense of achievement, and then tackle that jumper another
24:37
time, or unravel it.
24:43
again, is it distraction or is it comfort? Or is it the
24:47
challenge?
24:47
Mia Hobbs: I think it's probably helpful for our mental health
24:50
because it's all of those things, or it can be all of
24:53
those things at different points. And sometimes it could
24:56
be something soothing and simple and repetitive that's literally
25:00
just your hands, where your brain is doing a Zoom training
25:03
or doing something else, or where you're completely wiped
25:06
and you don't have any bandwidth left for thinking. And sometimes
25:09
you think, "Actually, I need an escape from the news, or
25:12
everything, and I need to absorb myself completely in a really
25:16
complicated pattern so I just can't think about anything
25:19
else." It can be all of those things, can't it?
25:19
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, you pick the right project for what you
25:23
need at the time.
25:24
Mia Hobbs: And does, for example, the materials make a
25:27
difference, or the colour? Does that make any difference?
25:29
Liz O'Riordan: I'm always drawn to yellows and blues. And I love
25:32
kind of the Norwegian... like the intarsia kind of colourwork
25:35
that they do. I love that. But often the patterns recommend
25:38
really itchy wools. I've made that mistake before: you buy the
25:41
wool that comes with a pattern and you think, "No, I don't like
25:43
this." I don't like bright colours. Kind of soft, pale,
25:49
pastelly neutrals. And I always want the perfect black jumper
25:53
but I hate knitting with black, because it's so hard to see what
25:55
you're doing. I think it's an interesting design, either
26:00
interesting colourwork or an interesting stripe, that catches
26:02
my eye, rather than the colours.
26:03
Mia Hobbs: And is it more about the process for you? Like the
26:07
design? Or is it more about, "Oh, I like the look of that. I
26:09
want to make it"? Or is it more about, "I want to be doing that
26:13
thing with my hands" like cables or colourwork?
26:16
Liz O'Riordan: I think it's "I like the look of that pattern.
26:19
It looks interesting." That's what I'm drawn to. And sometimes
26:22
I'm looking for a really cabley Aran network jumper for my
26:24
husband, or sometimes I just want something light. Something
26:28
will just catch my eye because I've always got projects on the
26:30
go. I can always knit another scarf. I think, "Ooh, that just
26:33
really excites me, what I want to knit next." And it could be
26:36
anything. God, it's so haphazard, isn't it? How do you
26:39
plan what to knit next?
26:40
Mia Hobbs: I think I think much more about process than about
26:44
the end result. I wouldn't knit something I didn't want, but,
26:48
for example, I have a jumper that is a very, very plain
26:52
raglan stockinette jumper with three large stripes, basically,
26:58
of colour. I love it. It's slightly the worse for wear
27:02
having had an interaction with some moths. I don't think I
27:06
could re-knit that for myself. It wouldn't be enough going on.
27:10
I like to have a plain project on the go that I don't need to
27:13
think about, for example, doing a Zoom training. So plain socks,
27:17
for example, are quite good because I can carry them around.
27:20
And in the summer, you know, if you happen to end up sitting in
27:23
the park or you're waiting for a bus or something, they're quite
27:26
good because they're easy and you can stick them in your bag.
27:28
But I didn't think I would do a whole jumper like that. I'd be
27:32
more attracted... Like this one has got some kind of detail,
27:35
like stitch patterns. And I think I would nowadays gravitate
27:41
more towards something a bit complicated or colourwork.
27:45
Liz O'Riordan: I think you get to a certain stage when you're
27:47
bored just knitting stocking stitch.
27:49
Mia Hobbs: I definitely plan my projects so that I have
27:52
different... I like something very challenging, because
27:55
sometimes I do just want to turn off the rest of the stuff going
27:58
on in my brain and just be absorbed in it. And then
28:01
something for stopping me getting distracted if I'm
28:05
listening. So I definitely would plan them like that. And I think
28:09
sometimes I do... Like with this project I've got on the go right
28:12
now that's got mohair, I did really have a hankering for the
28:15
tactile sensation of mohair, I think.
28:17
Liz O'Riordan: It is lovely and soft, isn't it?
28:18
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. I'd love to hear about a significant
28:20
knitting project for you, Liz.
28:23
Liz O'Riordan: I think it was probably the first blanket I
28:26
made, done by knitting squares in all sorts of different
28:29
colours. And I did that during my A-levels. I look at it and it
28:35
was a great time of my life, and so many memories were kind of
28:39
caught up in it. I knitted these huge squares, and then I would
28:42
crochet an edge around them, and I thought, "Wow, this is
28:44
amazing! I have made this blanket." It's actually a proper
28:47
thing that I used and I wore. And I then gave it on. So our
28:50
local hospital had volunteers who knit blankets for people who
28:53
were dying. So they have colourful blankets on the
28:56
hospital beds, and nurses know the blanket means that they're
28:59
towards the end of their life. And I donated it to them. And
29:02
that to me was a lovely way of giving something that didn't fit
29:04
in with my life now on to someone else. And I think the
29:08
things that mean the most to me are things I've given to people,
29:11
like really complicated scarves. They're not expected to say
29:14
thank you. It's that act of love of giving it to someone else
29:17
that really means a lot to me. I often put more effort into those
29:21
than I do for things I'm making myself.
29:22
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, so there's a big part of knitting that is
29:25
about the feeling you get when you give something away to
29:29
someone else.
29:29
Liz O'Riordan: Yes, completely.
29:30
Mia Hobbs: Do you generally know beforehand? So if you're
29:33
knitting a scarf like you said, a complicated scarf, would you
29:36
generally know who's going to receive that, or not
29:38
Liz O'Riordan: Generally. So a scarf I knitted recently and
29:38
necessarily?
29:40
gave to someone, I thought it would be for someone and then
29:43
life happened to someone else. And by the time I'd finished it,
29:45
life had happened to someone else, so actually no, they need
29:47
it most. And often I'm just bored. I think, "I want to knit
29:50
a beautiful intricate lacy scarf, and I don't need one so
29:52
I'll find someone to give it to when it's done. Because I don't
29:55
need another jumper at the moment." Again, you can knit so
29:58
many things and actually you don't wear them because you have
30:00
so many and it's really hard thinking, "Right. What do I
30:02
actually want to wear that will go with my wardrobe?" instead of
30:05
"Ooh, that's a pretty colour!"
30:06
Mia Hobbs: Do the recipients always appreciate? Does it
30:10
matter to you whether they know what's gone into it or whether
30:12
they're not going to chuck it in the washing machine?
30:14
Liz O'Riordan: It always matters to me, but they're to close
30:17
family and friends who know what it's like and how much hours
30:20
went into it, so they do understand. So I had a group of
30:24
friends who kind of knit and crochet on Twitter, and one of
30:26
the first cardigans a friend made looked a bit female
30:30
gynaecological. So we called it a fanny cardigan. And then we
30:34
thought we would set up a shop called Tits, Knits and Hookers,
30:39
because I was a breast surgeon with knitting and their crochet
30:42
hooks. So we'd sell cake and knit, and that was like, "Right,
30:45
we will do this. So we all retire and we will just sit and
30:49
knit and crochet and chat all day long, and life would be
30:51
wonderful."
30:52
Mia Hobbs: Are they friends you've met online or people you
30:55
Liz O'Riordan: Yes, friends I've met online. It all started... So
30:55
know in real life?
30:59
I'd just been diagnosed with breast cancer, and I was on the
31:02
train to London with my husband and we were starting to talk
31:05
about Christmas knitting patterns. And I managed to
31:08
find... something led to willy-warmers because I was
31:11
talking about my time as a urology surgeon, and you could
31:14
find patterns for men's boxer shorts which had a willy-warmer
31:18
attached. So we were laughing on the train. And that then led us
31:22
to finding a pattern for a knitted condom! Which obviously
31:25
wouldn't work. Which I then made and put Lindt chocolate balls on
31:28
and it goes on my tree every year. And since then we've just
31:30
gone looking for crazy knitted things that you'd never ever
31:33
make.
31:33
Mia Hobbs: So it sounds like that kind of humorous side... So
31:37
that was how you met this group of friends?
31:38
Liz O'Riordan: Yes. And I've met some of them in person, and it's
31:41
just lovely. But we have our own little group and we'll share
31:44
what we're making and have a laugh, and "Oh my god, this
31:46
looks like this... it didn't look like that on the pattern."
31:49
It's nice to have that, and just share the mistakes and the pain
31:52
Mia Hobbs: [Laughs] Yeah, so craft has brought a new
31:52
when your husband makes you lose count.
31:57
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, definitely more friends. Yes. So again, the
31:57
connection.
31:59
Australian surgeon who knits as well - there's like so many
32:02
people who just get in touch because you're doing it, and
32:04
it's lovely. And other people have been inspired to learn how
32:08
to knit by watching a YouTube video because they've seen me
32:11
post something. And I love that you can inspire other people to
32:14
get on board with a habit.
32:17
Mia Hobbs: chat on a train journey.
32:20
Liz O'Riordan: Exactly. And probably get no knitting done at
32:27
all, because you're too busy talking. But I love that. And
32:30
it's not expensive. You can get wool in a charity shop and a
32:33
couple of needles and actually make something.
32:37
Mia Hobbs: So it sounds like it brings quite a lot of joy to
32:39
your life.
32:40
Liz O'Riordan: It does. But for me, it's about using my hands in
32:43
a complex way. It is my kind of, "I'm not operating, but this is
32:47
how I do it now".
32:48
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And seeking the challenge, as well, of a new
32:52
type of thing.
32:53
Liz O'Riordan: Yes, definitely. I think, "What can I do next?
32:56
I've done entrelac, I've done brioche, I've done intarsia.
32:58
There must be something else I can do."
33:00
Mia Hobbs: Sure. And I can really hear that it's important
33:02
to you to get that sense of achievement, and to feel like
33:06
it's a useful thing that goes out into the world and has a
33:09
life afterwards.
33:10
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah. I don't get patients flashing me in
33:12
Sainsbury's showing me their scars anymore saying, "Thank
33:14
you, Doctor, you can't see it." It's that kind of, I guess, a
33:17
sense of self-gratification.
33:19
Mia Hobbs: Yeah. And also because I guess as a surgeon,
33:22
you're someone who's a high achiever, good with your hands,
33:27
attracted to a challenge, but also really interested in
33:31
helping people. And it sounds like in a way knitting can allow
33:34
you to tick all of those boxes.
33:36
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah. And it's lovely. I think it's so nice
33:38
when you get something homemade.
33:40
Mia Hobbs: From other people?
33:41
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, you know, they've kind of really taken the
33:43
effort and thought about you. And I think it's really nice
33:45
giving someone that gift. Because a scarf fits everybody.
33:49
[Laughs]
33:49
Mia Hobbs: Yes, this is true! I always end with asking about
33:55
what the greatest gift is that knitting has given you for the
33:57
rest of your life.
33:59
Liz O'Riordan: I think it's a sense of achievement, that it
34:03
doesn't matter where I am or how bad I'm feeling, I can get the
34:08
needles out and I can make something and say, "That wasn't
34:11
a wasted day."
34:12
Mia Hobbs: So it's a way of having a kind of soothing
34:15
activity, but also having achieved something.
34:20
Liz O'Riordan: I think so. Yeah, it's something I can always do
34:22
that will just make me feel, "Yeah, you can still do
34:25
something. You're okay."
34:26
Mia Hobbs: Have you found when you were feeling low, you could
34:29
still knit?
34:30
Liz O'Riordan: Yes. And rather than spending hours
34:33
doom-scrolling on my phone, I'll just turn it off or put some
34:35
music on and I will just knit and it's just that thinking
34:39
time. A lot of thinking time, I've got the dog on my lap but
34:41
he's got caught up in the ball of wool, but it's just that kind
34:44
of... I just feel safe. And there's something lovely about
34:47
the feeling of that heavy blanket growing on your lap.
34:50
Just that feeling of just me and my wool and I'm fine. Sorry,
34:55
husband! [Laughs]
34:58
Mia Hobbs: We'll edit that bit. [Laughs]
34:59
Liz O'Riordan: We'll edit that bit! No, he knows. He knows.
35:03
Mia Hobbs: So that's amazing. So it's really the sense of
35:05
achievement and a feeling of peace and comfort that you get
35:09
while you're doing it.
35:09
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, definitely. What about you?
35:13
Mia Hobbs: I think, yeah, all of those things. I think it's
35:15
really difficult to tie it down to what the... I do feel like
35:20
it's a way of accessing comfort, in a way. I feel like it is a
35:25
bit of a superpower that I have, like this secret skill that if I
35:30
go into a situation that's potentially stressful, it will
35:35
calm me down. And many people I've interviewed, and I
35:39
certainly would count myself as someone who's not particularly
35:43
good at classic mindfulness or meditating, but it is a way that
35:48
I feel like physiologically, it probably reduces my blood
35:52
pressure and my stress. I also think I'm not great at
35:56
concentrating and just sitting and listening to training or
36:00
something. It's different in therapy, obviously, because I'm
36:02
more in a dialogue, and I'm engaging. But just sitting and
36:06
listening, I'm not great at, and knitting really helps me with
36:09
focus. But I think it's also, in terms of my body image, I feel
36:14
like I really like the self-expression and the
36:18
creativity, that I like it being a wearable art, in a way, or a
36:23
wearable expression of who I am. And I feel like I've kind of
36:26
opted out of standard fashion, because I'm more interested in
36:31
the process of making and then I love it and want to wear it.
36:36
Liz O'Riordan: Yes. And it's nice wearing something you've
36:38
made that no-one else can have, and being a bit different,
36:41
because the shops are just full of the same colours and you
36:43
think, "No, I'm going to do orange and purple and red
36:45
Mia Hobbs: And I think I've definitely got a different
36:45
together!"
36:49
relationship with colour. When I made this yellow, I used to
36:53
think I wasn't someone who would wear yellow but it makes me feel
36:56
happy every time I put it on! So of course I should wear yellow!
36:58
Liz O'Riordan: I'm all about the yellow! Says she wearing black.
37:01
[Laughs]
37:01
Mia Hobbs: Yeah, so I do think it's brought so much. And I love
37:05
introducing new people to knitting, and I'm really
37:07
enjoying working with teenagers and giving them that skill. Like
37:10
you said, you've had it for such a long time and it's benefited
37:13
your life. Maybe you didn't realise it always, you know,
37:16
throughout your A-levels.
37:17
Liz O'Riordan: I don't think I did.
37:18
Mia Hobbs: I certainly had revision breaks in my doctorate
37:20
where I would knit, and it would allow ideas to percolate if I
37:24
was writing an essay. And I think that has really been
37:28
invaluable and I'm really more putting psychological labels on
37:32
the ways in which it's been helpful to me, but it's been
37:35
there doing it all along. [Laughs]
37:37
Liz O'Riordan: Yeah, it's amazing, isn't it? It's just
37:39
that... Everyone should knit.
37:41
Mia Hobbs: They should! And maybe if it's not knitting for
37:44
everybody, you know, there might be other ways they could have a
37:47
creative outlet that's something you do with your hands,
37:51
something that you literally create. Like you said about
37:54
gardening, I think some people might find that more their
37:56
medium, but I think a lot of the ways it would help them would be
38:00
very similar.
38:02
Liz O'Riordan: Definitely.
38:03
Mia Hobbs: Liz, it's been an absolute pleasure to hear your
38:07
stories about knitting and how it's benefited you, and I'm so
38:10
glad that it has brought you through some darker times and is
38:14
continuing to bring joy to you and all the people who are lucky
38:17
enough to receive your gifts.
38:19
Liz O'Riordan: Thank you, Mia. It's been great to chat.
38:21
Mia Hobbs: If people want to find out more about you on
38:24
social media, see what your knitting, where would they do
38:26
that?
38:27
Liz O'Riordan: So on Instagram, I'm @oriordanliz. On Twitter,
38:31
I'm @Liz_ORiordan. Feel free to drop me a line and I will reply
38:36
to anybody about anything.
38:37
Mia Hobbs: Super. And I always encourage showing and telling of
38:39
knitting, so I'd also love to see all your knitting!
38:42
Liz O'Riordan: I'm now going to stalk your profile and see,
38:44
"Right, what's the next jumper I'm going to make?"
38:46
Mia Hobbs: [Laughs] Well, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank
38:49
you!
38:50
Mia Hobbs: Thank you so much for listening to the Why I Knit
38:50
Liz O'Riordan: Thanks, Mia.
38:58
podcast. If you'd like to find out more about therapeutic
39:01
knitting, you can follow me on Instagram @knittingistherapeutic
39:05
or at my website www.therapeuticknitting.org. If
39:08
you're enjoying the podcast, I would really appreciate it if
39:10
you could leave a rating and a review on your podcast app. This
39:14
will help grow the podcast and let more people know about the
39:16
therapeutic benefits of knitting. And don't forget to
39:19
subscribe too. Thank you!