Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to Paul Quinn about his choice of Resurrection of the Daleks (2/2)

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Talks to Paul Quinn about his choice of Resurrection of the Daleks (2/2) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None Hamster with a blunt penknife
• 0:35
  for doing. Quicker, quicker.
• 0:40
  Quicker Hello. Welcome back to Hamster with a
• 0:42
  blunt penknife. You are about to endure Episode
• 0:45
  2 of Resurrection the Dialects. I'm Paul Quinn and I am
• 0:50
  delighted to have been invited to dissect.
• 0:53
  Eric Sayward's Opus or anti Opus by your ever reliable host Mr.
• 1:01
  Judge Ford. Well hello there.
• 1:04
  Do you know I've got a question for you straight away before we
• 1:07
  even go into this episode. It's not what we were talking
• 1:09
  about just a second ago and that is that this unfortunately has
• 1:12
  the title Doctor Who slapped on it, you know, as every single
• 1:18
  Eric Sayward's script does. Do you think that's a problem?
• 1:21
  It is for Saywood because he clearly wants to write for hard
• 1:25
  men with guns, homerotic or otherwise.
• 1:29
  If you look across his episode in the visitation Michael
• 1:34
  Robbins character, he's so dull I've forgotten he's got his
• 1:37
  flintlock gun. You've got an exploding gun that
• 1:41
  does for the terlectorals. I think the Proto Figaro is left
• 1:45
  hand scalp in earth shock. If you think of how we burst in,
• 1:49
  Lieutenant Scott, you might as well go space bustards or
• 1:53
  something like that, waving big guns around.
• 1:55
  And Litton is obviously the key figure there.
• 1:59
  Orsini, as you've already said on your previous episode about
• 2:04
  revelation of the diocese, is a more interesting variant on that
• 2:07
  figure. And you can see I think that say
• 2:11
  what is working within what's on television at that time?
• 2:16
  And previously so Obviously. Callan, as everybody knows, is
• 2:20
  the key influence on Orsini. It's the hitman with a
• 2:23
  conscience with the smelly companion That's Callan Lonely
• 2:27
  from the ITV series from the late 60s into the early 70s.
• 2:33
  You can also see Callan I don't know so often commented on in
• 2:37
  the emotion speech in Earth Shock.
• 2:39
  He's very similar to a See Speed, a speech in series four
• 2:44
  of Callan in the episode where. Alan's reign as head of Section
• 2:49
  comes crashing to end because his conscience kicks in or his
• 2:54
  sense of revenge actually kicks in as well.
• 2:57
  But if you look at something like sandbaggers, which we were
• 3:00
  just talking about, the phenomenal spy series ITV
• 3:03
  produces 1978 through 1980. Roy Marsden as this kind of
• 3:07
  tough. Intelligence officer who had
• 3:10
  been in the armies. He got Roy Roy Lennon there with
• 3:13
  him as well. You know, he's tall, he's in the
• 3:16
  three piece suit. He smokes, he eats.
• 3:18
  He's a former alcoholic so he can't drink.
• 3:21
  Always eating beef burgers Doesn't mind sending men to
• 3:23
  their deaths. That's the kind of Morris
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  Coleman figures we've got here. See Klein Coleman's own
• 3:29
  character from gangsters. His lurk in the background, even
• 3:31
  something is disposable, as Bodine Doyle.
• 3:35
  Like Maurice Colburn could just as, yeah, he could be recast
• 3:39
  with little could be recast and you could put Lewis Collins in
• 3:43
  there from the professionals. Yeah, it's that type of year we
• 3:47
  moved into here. Saywood really wants to write, I
• 3:50
  think those type of action full on films or dramas.
• 3:55
  His problem is he's got Peter Davidson and that's not the
• 3:59
  doctor you want. If you're going to have a
• 4:01
  doctorate on this, you want. Tom Baker from Seeds of Doom
• 4:05
  smashed his Scobie's head into a wall, twisting his neck and
• 4:09
  waving a gun. Scobie, of course, is the other
• 4:11
  obvious proto figure for for little if you go back previous
• 4:16
  era someone like Regan from Ambassadors of Death or What's
• 4:22
  his Name though the prisoner who's running the show in Mind
• 4:26
  of Evil. Mailer Yeah these type of hard
• 4:30
  men figure they turn up. They tend to be active by people
• 4:32
  that you recognize. John Scooby obviously John
• 4:36
  Chalice this is litany's fulfilling this.
• 4:38
  Now Lytton's journey as you we know is interesting into attack
• 4:41
  and Simon but trying to make him the central figure when it's
• 4:45
  Doctor Who and you have to have Davison in there and essentially
• 4:48
  Davison starts having to do things that Litton would do.
• 4:53
  You can see this as well, Kaiser and Rosani.
• 4:56
  You know, back to my. Earlier musing on how far Andrew
• 5:00
  Zani is saved as much as Holmes and Morris Rose's character and
• 5:06
  you could imagine Morris Rose turning up in this.
• 5:08
  And of course Rose had been in the nightmare man a couple of
• 5:11
  years before this, which could be a lot more violent than it
• 5:15
  is. The book suggested it it it
• 5:17
  could be and it's pre watershed positioning probably limits what
• 5:24
  you can do. In terms of adapting that book
• 5:26
  is that there's a there's a particularly nasty rape in it
• 5:29
  and the evidence left in the victim is that the sperm is
• 5:31
  radioactive. And of course because it's to do
• 5:34
  with a radioactive submarine and not a monster at all, a lot of
• 5:37
  spoilers there. But you can see the type of
• 5:40
  thing that's going on in the background.
• 5:41
  I mean, it's the period of the Mad Death as well that that that
• 5:44
  thing about rabies. We had that terrifying credit.
• 5:47
  Seekers of a dog. Bark and I think it was blood
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  driven off his mouth that I might have imagined that, or
• 5:52
  even when we're going after this in Tel Aviv to say something
• 5:54
  like Edge of Darkness, where you've got the kind of
• 5:58
  interrogation of that type of figure in both wow, what's his
• 6:04
  name? Craven.
• 6:05
  And oh, who's the American agent there?
• 6:10
  I've forgotten his name. That's terrible, because Edge of
• 6:12
  Darkness is probably the greatest BBC drama of the 1980s
• 6:17
  Jedburg. You've got these type of hard
• 6:19
  men who carry guns, but there's a kind of intelligent
• 6:21
  interrogation of what it is because Edge of Darkness is the
• 6:24
  most amazing examination of grief alongside this conspiracy
• 6:29
  theory. That's not what's working here.
• 6:32
  This is much closer to actually he's close to the A-Team even
• 6:36
  though Sailor doesn't want it to be.
• 6:37
  He wants this to be the anti A-Team where people get killed.
• 6:39
  If you've got guns, it is much closer say terminate or that
• 6:42
  type of thing. So you're saying he could
• 6:44
  literally tear out the Doctor and make the story purely about
• 6:50
  listen and he would be the one pointing the gun at Davros, his
• 6:53
  head. He would be the one that is
• 6:55
  releasing the Movella virus at the end and wiping out the
• 6:58
  Daleks in the warehouse, and instead Peter Davidson stopped
• 7:02
  doing it, which feels spectacularly out of character.
• 7:06
  Which again is part of this problem with the season or or or
• 7:09
  means that the the the crisis is going to envelope in 22.
• 7:14
  I think Michael Gray's point about.
• 7:17
  That it was nasty. It is nasty.
• 7:19
  Look at frontiers. Look at look at what's meant to
• 7:22
  happen in Frontiers. You're meant to have the
• 7:24
  commander's head as a pendulum on the drilling machine and all
• 7:27
  the bits of the bodies. Now there would have been a get
• 7:28
  that Big me thinks you can do it so that even Big me, these think
• 7:33
  indeed said or say was encouraging.
• 7:34
  Oh, and now that was described in the novel.
• 7:37
  It's Grizzly, I think. Yeah, yeah.
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  I mean and it again it's design lets them down as well the, the,
• 7:44
  the. What are they called the woodlow
• 7:48
  stings? Oh, they're track spaces.
• 7:50
  Yeah, they're meant to envelope the victims, aren't they?
• 7:55
  You know it's you it you need the budget of Alien.
• 7:58
  You need the design of Alien. What you've got is a local
• 8:01
  fibreglass factory producing woodlouse.
• 8:03
  It's similar with this. I mean the the the weaponry say
• 8:07
  would want big guns. He, you know, he gets a burnt
• 8:10
  face. But what He also gets a comedy
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  Dalek helmets. On top of characters that it
• 8:14
  will define as to what they actually are.
• 8:16
  Are they human? Well, no.
• 8:17
  Litton's not here when we discover that subject.
• 8:19
  Are they replicants though? Because that's what the text
• 8:21
  suggests. And then you have at the centre
• 8:24
  of it Ronnie Buttes. But the difference between
• 8:28
  frontiers, which came directly before this and this is, yeah,
• 8:33
  the production lets it down. Yeah, Ron Jones is directing it.
• 8:35
  And actually I do think he gets better as he goes along.
• 8:38
  He Yes. Not a bad direction in
• 8:40
  Frontiers, actually, but what you do have there is likeable
• 8:43
  characters in Nonna and Mr. Range and people like that,
• 8:46
  interesting characters in Plantagenet and Brazen, and
• 8:50
  you've got a mystery that unfolds.
• 8:53
  You've got answers that are interesting, you've got
• 8:56
  fantastic ideas and you've got some really tasty dialogue in
• 8:59
  there as well to get you teaching and brilliant
• 9:03
  performances. Yeah.
• 9:04
  So, so there's all that going on and as much of any of that going
• 9:08
  on here. Not really, no.
• 9:10
  I mean, yeah. And it it starts from the script
• 9:13
  and it doesn't get any better from that.
• 9:16
  Well, I'm looking forward to watching it.
• 9:18
  Are you? Oh.
• 9:19
  Nothing. Yes, here we go.
• 9:22
  We're about to witness Rodney Bewes.
• 9:26
  I mean, I was just thinking there in the breaks, they've had
• 9:28
  Polly James already in this season.
• 9:30
  They've had never season, season 19.
• 9:31
  They are going through the 1970s sitcoms looking for their cast
• 9:35
  and children's TV. So here we go, Where are we?
• 9:37
  The. The.
• 9:39
  Yeah, Writers will be there eventually, Will they?
• 9:47
  Peter Davis We've got to wait Wait a bit for Felicity Kendall.
• 9:51
  We do. We do, yeah.
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  And Paul Evans doesn't get that far.
• 9:56
  Here we go. And there's a gun.
• 9:58
  Yeah. Davis with a gun.
• 10:02
  It's a comedy gun. And then Stein with the proper
• 10:04
  machine gun, which we haven't seen use before.
• 10:06
  And it's not the guns that the police will use.
• 10:08
  So it's a weird continuity. Cock up.
• 10:12
  Oh, this recap is so awful, isn't it?
• 10:15
  It's terrible. How do you think Davidson does
• 10:17
  that sort of blazing eyed fury quite well, you know?
• 10:20
  Does. But then if you think about the
• 10:22
  the single worst cliffhanger, I think possibly in in in old hoop
• 10:28
  I guess. Go on, Is it more than under
• 10:33
  episode 3? Lots of years.
• 10:35
  Because you used to say that when we were younger.
• 10:41
  Well, I will mean an end of me as a Time Lord.
• 10:43
  Yeah, it's because I think he had an issue with doing like
• 10:47
  bringing it up for the Cliffhangs.
• 10:48
  Have you watched the behind the scenes on Castro Alva?
• 10:52
  One where he does recursive occlusion and you know, he has
• 10:54
  to really say all that. The second they say car, he just
• 10:58
  goes, oh God, like it. Like, what's my career come to?
• 11:01
  I think? I think there is an issue, of
• 11:03
  course, with Bid Me dialogue, because I think again, it it's
• 11:07
  it's Woodall. Miles say that Bid Me insists on
• 11:12
  he hates technobabble, but it ends up as technobabble, even
• 11:16
  though it might be accurate and it's kind of this repellent
• 11:19
  noise. This, of course, is trying to
• 11:22
  avoid all that. This is essentially mercenaries
• 11:24
  on a spaceship. With a you know, a a virus that
• 11:28
  that's all easy to understand, but then you get this kind of
• 11:32
  clunking dialogue and you get this nonsensical plot lines.
• 11:36
  Do you know why? Why does the Time Tunnel come
• 11:39
  out here into 1984? Why is the vellum virus here?
• 11:42
  Why this group of diets try to do so much?
• 11:44
  Just one single plot line will be enough.
• 11:46
  And yeah, as you say, you need a reason to keep on that
• 11:49
  spaceship. Otherwise they're just hanging
• 11:51
  around for no reason. Get Davos off and get him gone.
• 11:54
  What does the dialect spaceship not have?
• 11:56
  A laboratory. You know, it makes no sense.
• 12:00
  What's that making that comparison revelation again?
• 12:04
  Because I feel like there's a lot going on in that as well,
• 12:06
  but it is all tie Around, Tranquil Repose and Davros.
• 12:10
  Yeah. And the only revelation, I
• 12:12
  think, is when they suddenly make it about tell the president
• 12:15
  not to land here at the end of what is.
• 12:22
  Episode three in the four part edit that they that they
• 12:26
  produced for 92 when he tell the doctor tells Perry to tell them
• 12:32
  to not land because it was the you know the president's wife is
• 12:35
  that's the big thing isn't that's the big funeral.
• 12:37
  There's nothing in the plot at that point to suggest that this
• 12:39
  is about an assassination. It would make sense if car is
• 12:42
  trying to kill the president and take over everything but it's
• 12:45
  kind of a throwing on me. It's again it's say we're doing
• 12:48
  these things and somebody know when they're going.
• 12:51
  Why is that? There's no there's no sense but
• 12:54
  there's definitely no blue pencil going on this script here
• 12:57
  because things particularly in the second-half because your
• 13:00
  question what's the plot in the first half is the virus.
• 13:03
  What's the plot in the second-half?
• 13:04
  Well, it's the virus and it's invading Earth and it's it's
• 13:08
  fascinating. The high What's that?
• 13:11
  It's fascinating. The High Council, that's in
• 13:13
  there as well. It is, yeah.
• 13:15
  And and it's just a dab. And then the dialect civil war
• 13:18
  as well, of course. And Davos knows more than he
• 13:22
  should. We'll see.
• 13:23
  Kirsten certainly knows more than he should because he knows
• 13:26
  he has the he has the arrogance of a Time Lord and that really
• 13:28
  weird way. Alessi Grantham has her
• 13:31
  speaking. Yeah, his stars is laboratory.
• 13:35
  Oh yeah, Here's the big Mcguffin, isn't it?
• 13:37
  We spend a long time trying to get this self destruct unit
• 13:40
  working and then it looks like it's about to work.
• 13:43
  And then they get shot. And so then when when Stein
• 13:46
  comes back, he's got to mess around with all the buttons
• 13:49
  again. Instead of just pulling the
• 13:50
  handle and there's nothing to tell us it's reset itself.
• 13:54
  It's just here we get more in his plot twist that did you ever
• 13:59
  hear Eric's Ward's opinion on this script He.
• 14:02
  Doesn't like he doesn't now, he said.
• 14:04
  It was the worst Doctor Who script ever written.
• 14:08
  You know, Ha ha. Very funny, Eric.
• 14:11
  Thanks for that. Why did you write it exactly?
• 14:13
  And this is your second pass? Because I don't think this was
• 14:15
  what was written for the things in 20.
• 14:17
  I think no. He He rewrites.
• 14:20
  I mean, if you see them about season 6, there's a long running
• 14:25
  crisis around scripts and season 6 and they're losing scripts at
• 14:28
  a a a rapid rate and there's a merry go round as to who's doing
• 14:32
  what jobs. But they still produce a really
• 14:36
  good season. I love 6IN some ways I prefer
• 14:39
  it's a 5, even though five it is fixes just through its
• 14:43
  diversity. I think it's.
• 14:45
  I mean, weird enough, the two stories that you go, maybe you
• 14:49
  should have had something else are the two home scripts which
• 14:52
  Cottons and Space Pirates. Although I've kind of The Space
• 14:56
  Place is growing on me at listening to the soundtrack to
• 14:59
  even the dominate this. Although it it's not great the
• 15:03
  Dominators and clearly is an issue when like Planet of the
• 15:06
  Giants, you can remove an entire episode, it doesn't actually
• 15:09
  affect the story and it really pisses off them too.
• 15:12
  Which is why they won't come back and they take their toys
• 15:14
  and they they they stomp off. But given the crisis, that's a
• 15:18
  that's a solid season and your war games is awesome.
• 15:24
  Mind robbers an experiment is incredible.
• 15:26
  The invasion is too long but grips and Caesar death is is
• 15:30
  fantastic, but this isn't a seasoning crisis.
• 15:33
  This is the point to how did this get through, other than the
• 15:36
  fact that no one is looking at what Sale is producing and you
• 15:41
  can see that in the in the parallel between Kaizan Giuzani
• 15:45
  and Twin Dilemma. If it is true, and of course the
• 15:48
  problem is because John Nathan Turner is dead, we we.
• 15:51
  We don't have his side of these stories and you want you want
• 15:54
  John Nathan Turner on DVD commentaries, you want Robert
• 15:57
  Holmes on DVD commentaries, and you want John Purwick.
• 16:00
  If it is true that John Nathan Turner was focused on Twin
• 16:02
  Dilemma and was just letting them away with case and design,
• 16:06
  there's something seriously wrong in that production office.
• 16:08
  There is one interview with J&T in like a cafe in Brighton, I
• 16:14
  think, and he does talk about resurrection of the dialects.
• 16:17
  And he talks about it as a as a fast, pacey, stylish story.
• 16:23
  And he talks about the location work and he talks about the
• 16:25
  action. And I think that might be where
• 16:29
  his focus was, because I know he read Kinder and went, well, I
• 16:32
  don't have a bloody clue what that's about.
• 16:34
  We'll make it because we ain't got anything else.
• 16:35
  But I think maybe he thought this was all right, this was
• 16:40
  possible. It's it's it's full of incident.
• 16:43
  It's full of action. And one of one of the quizzes is
• 16:46
  that he takes sections out of scripts and then that he thinks
• 16:49
  are holding things up. This isn't held up, If anything.
• 16:52
  A lot of a lot of the scenes are too short in this, and the
• 16:55
  cutting between them is only emphasizing that.
• 16:58
  There's too much plot, I think, and there's really enough space
• 17:02
  to expand upon anything. Is Ershock to blame for all this
• 17:06
  then? Is Ershock to blame?
• 17:09
  The success of Ershock, I think you know, because isn't it true
• 17:13
  that the last episode of Ershock had the most amount of scenes in
• 17:18
  a single .2 episode to that point?
• 17:21
  I think, I think that's right. But that's all in the edit.
• 17:25
  I mean, again, I'm not sure who's editing this versus who's
• 17:28
  editing Ershock. You do find that in the film
• 17:31
  while you know Thelma Schumacher, what do they sounds
• 17:35
  like before she gets hold of them?
• 17:37
  But I'd have to check on that. But I think Ershock Ershock
• 17:41
  Rachel Tale talking about Stephen Moffitt's scripts.
• 17:45
  No, because she, she said, you know, long after their
• 17:50
  association has ended. She goes, those scripts were
• 17:53
  basically the parts of them were unfilmable, she goes.
• 17:56
  And I really, we had to sit down and do some serious editing and
• 18:00
  some serious thinking about because he just wasn't writing
• 18:03
  scripts that would translate into a smooth viewing
• 18:08
  experience. So yeah, I think.
• 18:11
  I think again you can see earlier times that so Dalit
• 18:15
  master plan springs to mind there, where you know,
• 18:17
  termination. The story.
• 18:19
  Wouldn't he rock up and he'd give them what, a mentary
• 18:22
  scripts and their description of spaceships.
• 18:24
  But you've got Douglas Canfield there and you know.
• 18:28
  Campfield is an incredible director and A and a visual
• 18:32
  storyteller that's missing from here.
• 18:34
  No, it's not entirely Robinson's fault, as we'll see when the
• 18:36
  diets Civil War starts. The diets have to stand around
• 18:39
  and tell us what they're doing, because visually we can't tell
• 18:42
  what they're doing because the dialects.
• 18:44
  There's no difference in the colour scheme, if nothing else.
• 18:48
  But you can also see the Diet master plan.
• 18:51
  You know, Donald Tosh is a better script editor than I
• 18:54
  simply realized because of the crisis around.
• 18:58
  Season three that they kind of get overlooked because
• 19:02
  ultimately how much of what appears on season 3 is what John
• 19:06
  was and and and Tasha had actually planned to produce and
• 19:10
  how far is it leftover from Lambert and how far is it then
• 19:13
  monkeyed around with with Innis Lloyd and Jerry Davis.
• 19:15
  But I think that's those type of stories tell you that you need
• 19:20
  the director on board for some stories to make them work.
• 19:23
  And I think you can see that Evangel Zani, how far?
• 19:26
  Harper makes that script work. Comparison with revelation.
• 19:31
  You've got Harper there, haven't you?
• 19:32
  And I think you know he was involved in every part of that.
• 19:35
  I want. I want to be involved in the
• 19:36
  music. I want to be involved in the
• 19:37
  design. You know, and.
• 19:40
  Well, I it makes me think back to the question of who is
• 19:44
  directing Warriors Go. But I mean in Harper was denied
• 19:52
  that it was him, that it was Paul Joyce doing it.
• 19:54
  But I do wonder how for Harper is really doing his.
• 19:56
  The other figure I think is probably involved is Tom Baker,
• 19:59
  because I think by that point Tom Baker is the most
• 20:01
  experienced person making dots who on that set.
• 20:05
  So if you've seen the really uncomfortable moment where
• 20:11
  they're filming them filming the leisure hype, that's on the.
• 20:16
  Oh, that fucking dreary prop that bit.
• 20:19
  You can tell Bacon knows how to film that shot.
• 20:22
  He goes, doesn't he? You come in on one, the three's
• 20:25
  over there, you get a reaction shot from there and he literally
• 20:28
  knows everything. But I don't get the impression
• 20:31
  that by this point Davidson is going to go, yeah, this is how
• 20:35
  you do it. Because of course there's the
• 20:37
  story that Davidson, if he if he'd had the scripts of 21 in
• 20:40
  20, he'd have stayed for the 4th year.
• 20:43
  Really with this raises you. You listen to talking about it.
• 20:48
  He raised this. It's baffling, isn't?
• 20:55
  It here's timing this replica business, it's so slow.
• 20:59
  We're meant to think they've done all those soldiers whose
• 21:02
  number changes as well, of course, and that you would do
• 21:05
  this for everyone. I mean, it's as a process.
• 21:08
  It's ludicrous as an idea. It makes no sense whatsoever.
• 21:11
  It only really works is if you're brainwashing the
• 21:13
  original, and if that's how because you've got Stein.
• 21:17
  A replicant whose personality is breaking through, which I assume
• 21:21
  is why he puts on that spammer. But it makes no sense within the
• 21:24
  story whatsoever. I mean, this is this is kind of,
• 21:30
  I don't think it's there in the script, it's not explored well
• 21:33
  in the script, and it certainly isn't delivered by the actor.
• 21:37
  No, unless you've just been watching like Claudius and you
• 21:40
  thought that's the type of thing you need to do.
• 21:42
  Yeah, Here we go. Assassinate the High Council.
• 21:45
  Why? This is it.
• 21:48
  You see I mean you talk about it's just lumping things here
• 21:51
  because the scripts are clearly were overrun underrun I think at
• 21:54
  some point. And so you're adding things to
• 21:56
  it or things, things happen because they want to happen
• 21:59
  here. We're back to say was old
• 22:01
  favorite of breaking into a room or breaking onto a ship.
• 22:05
  He's already done it and now we're doing it again.
• 22:08
  We've already seen it this season in Warriors of the Deep.
• 22:11
  We've seen it in Earth shock. Do we see it in attack of the
• 22:18
  cyber moment because I take does write that and they look they Oh
• 22:24
  no. Yeah, well, she remember floss
• 22:27
  locks herself in that room with all the.
• 22:29
  That's right. But the sidemen are trying to
• 22:31
  get in. I think that's the only real
• 22:33
  moment there. Yeah, doorman.
• 22:36
  And here we go. Do you know how much influence
• 22:40
  do you think Levine's got here? During our break, I saw that he
• 22:49
  put up on Twitter a picture of himself with Saywood, my friend
• 22:53
  for 42 years. I'd say he's got too much
• 22:56
  influence by this point. I think here we go.
• 23:00
  Yes, the dykes are now going to be.
• 23:02
  We're about to see the type of face that Leslie Graham
• 23:05
  presumably pulled when he was performing sex acts on the video
• 23:09
  before he died. Slicked back hair.
• 23:13
  Sallow Look, this is this is a really dodgy nightclub in the
• 23:16
  1980s. Yeah, I was too young then.
• 23:21
  Yeah, Davos and particularly, you know given given the last
• 23:25
  shot we have of Davos with his hand missing and lots of white
• 23:30
  stuff emanating from his casing. I think there's something
• 23:34
  underneath the surface here, I think and under acknowledged
• 23:37
  there's there's an essay to be written here you were saying
• 23:39
  about all this homoerotic subtext with these, with these
• 23:43
  thugs. Barney's always a penis, and
• 23:46
  look at the guns that they've got.
• 23:47
  They're massive, phallic shaped things with a rather large head.
• 23:53
  So there's something the the designers are certainly
• 23:55
  fulfilling the type of homoerotic fantasy that's within
• 23:57
  the script. How does that sound about the
• 23:59
  Daleks? And they're essentially walking
• 24:01
  guns that are phallic shaped. Yeah.
• 24:08
  Also, he doesn't even leave the ship.
• 24:11
  He's like, Supreme. Yeah.
• 24:14
  Oh, he's he's probably agoraphobicism.
• 24:17
  Lots of big handles there, but we just keep cutting back to him
• 24:21
  in the ship, screaming his head off that things aren't going the
• 24:24
  way they should be. There isn't.
• 24:27
  It is because Saber doesn't think Dallas can have
• 24:29
  conversations. So quite why you have these
• 24:32
  scenes, and I don't know. This is one of the stranger
• 24:34
  moments as well, of course, isn't it?
• 24:36
  They bring up the the canister and then.
• 24:41
  Doctor play school here has some type of attack.
• 24:45
  What enormous. Here what?
• 24:48
  I mean there's no effect when people actually use.
• 24:51
  That doesn't happen at any other point in the in the story.
• 24:54
  It's just they're baffling the whole, the whole 1984 thing.
• 24:59
  I remember I was watching this and I was like, do you know
• 25:01
  what? Because they're talking about
• 25:02
  Earth in this, don't they? And about how Davros was placed
• 25:06
  on this prison ship. And he goes, you know, the
• 25:07
  people on Earth have no taste for, you know, capital
• 25:10
  punishment and things like this. And I'm going what the people of
• 25:13
  1984 and I know like they've they've introduced the Time
• 25:17
  Tunnel, but it is confusing. No, there's no need for the time
• 25:21
  tunnel because it makes no sense.
• 25:23
  Also, it adds nothing to the plotline.
• 25:24
  The whole link to Earth is is is is spurious.
• 25:29
  We just saw replicants of Tegan and Turlow, didn't we?
• 25:34
  We did. How the gonna get up when the
• 25:37
  when this station goes up as well it's.
• 25:39
  Yeah, ghastly, all of this. Do you think I have a choice?
• 25:50
  It's very strange. Like troopers.
• 25:55
  They're all replicants, of course, who've just been told.
• 25:57
  Except they're not. Except they are.
• 25:58
  It just depends on which page of scripture on entirely in
• 26:01
  practical outfits for tea. I mean the what they were lucky,
• 26:05
  of course, was that there's no one there to go.
• 26:07
  How much love? Because you know, prostitute
• 26:09
  chic is definitely what you want.
• 26:11
  And for your tea time audience policeman again coming to
• 26:14
  threaten her. But I do.
• 26:15
  I think this is the most I'll judged sequence of all where
• 26:18
  they just go along and just murder some fella doing the
• 26:22
  metal detecting on the banks of the Thames.
• 26:24
  So what is that all about? That would detect himself.
• 26:28
  The only reason he's got that. But what was it?
• 26:30
  We want somebody there, but he mustn't know it's going on
• 26:32
  there. What could we have?
• 26:33
  Could be deaf. I'd be visualized there.
• 26:36
  Oh, it can be a metal detectors. No one's interested in them
• 26:39
  anyway. It's just the weirdest reasoning
• 26:41
  for doing it. Oh, here we go.
• 26:43
  This is. Someone's been watching,
• 26:44
  survivors haven't. This is the only credits of it,
• 26:49
  but like it didn't talk to Magazine Runner.
• 26:51
  I think that said that this had more deaths in it than Reservoir
• 26:54
  Dogs or something. Like S and Terminator two, I do.
• 26:59
  I do have more definite than terminated, so I.
• 27:03
  Do actually have? I do actually have in my hand
• 27:08
  which stories have the best body counts.
• 27:11
  Oh, go for it. I've done your research.
• 27:15
  Let's see. So and it's different.
• 27:18
  They do it between individual deaths and highest body counts.
• 27:24
  Mass deaths. Curse of Fen, 38 deaths.
• 27:28
  Genesis of the dialects, 39 deaths.
• 27:30
  Attack on the side. Men, 41 deaths.
• 27:32
  Monster Pentadon, bizarrely enough.
• 27:34
  I bought his seven deaths all their minors.
• 27:38
  Never mind. 74 deaths, Highest body counts, Mass deaths,
• 27:44
  Silver, Nemesis, Genesis of the Daleks, Remembrance of the
• 27:47
  Daleks, Inferno and the Gopalis. Oh, well, yes, I'd say that's
• 27:56
  more conceptual. And we're meant to take the
• 27:58
  master seriously. Yeah, well, I mean that that in
• 28:01
  itself, there's problems with Elephant because then when the
• 28:03
  Master wipes out parts of the universe, he wipes out the track
• 28:08
  and Union, which is millions of people.
• 28:11
  And then we're meant to just go, oh, it's Anthony, you're going
• 28:15
  or going in King's Demons. And I mean, frankly, Anthony is
• 28:21
  a terrible actor. I mean, it's a good job that he
• 28:23
  had private money to keep him in employment because I don't know
• 28:26
  how he's getting to work until survival.
• 28:29
  And he's incredible. In survival, Modim is true.
• 28:35
  Oh yeah. He's good as treatments.
• 28:36
  He's good as treatments that that's that's certainly true.
• 28:40
  What's this Pick doesn't line or a massive bubble wrap as if the
• 28:44
  only reason I only works, it's just because I give him fun
• 28:46
  stuff to do, you know? It's like batshit crazy stuff to
• 28:49
  do. He's.
• 28:52
  He's he's feud with Jonathan Turner over.
• 28:58
  Convention fees in the Jonathan Turner biography is incredible,
• 29:03
  and he comes across as deeply, deeply unpleasant man, deeply
• 29:07
  unpleasant. Money grasping man.
• 29:08
  I mean ailing not, not, not Turner.
• 29:10
  Although, oddly enough, at one of the capital events that they
• 29:15
  held in Crawley a few years ago, Nicola Bryant was there and she
• 29:20
  she poured scorn on a lot of the claims in that book.
• 29:23
  She's the stuff about Jonathan turns table that his table legs
• 29:26
  were so big you couldn't type it with shoelaces around them.
• 29:28
  I mean I was always suspicious of that.
• 29:30
  But when the the punchline when Gary Downey is chasing the boy
• 29:35
  around the production office and he beats him off with the script
• 29:39
  for episode two of Time Mash. That's too perfect at Punchline,
• 29:43
  because of course episode two of Time Mash is shit and does show
• 29:47
  so many of the problems with this era, which we see here in
• 29:50
  this one is the the padding out of scenes.
• 29:52
  And not really thinking through what you're doing with the
• 29:54
  script. I mean, one level time actually
• 29:57
  isn't as bad as this because there is a kind of coherent
• 30:01
  single story. So Warriors of the Deep, I mean
• 30:03
  Warriors the Deep is hated, isn't it?
• 30:06
  Or I doubt it. Has it undergone some massive
• 30:08
  renaissance? I don't think it is.
• 30:10
  I was watching it the other night.
• 30:11
  It's a lot better than I remembered, a lot better than I
• 30:13
  remember. Pennant Robbers actually can do
• 30:15
  something with that, even though he's just getting dog after dog
• 30:18
  after dog. But I don't, you know, on one
• 30:21
  level is better than this. I mean, I prefer Time Lashes
• 30:24
  simply because the Doctor is having fun in Time Lash and he's
• 30:27
  having no fun at all in this arrows.
• 30:30
  There and the the Boras make up is phenomenal and the Android is
• 30:34
  good as well. You know there's a bit of
• 30:35
  thought in terms of the music but this here we go.
• 30:38
  Bang, your childhood dead children.
• 30:40
  Look at that. We just and it's crazy.
• 30:44
  It's one of many dreamy deaths in this, isn't it?
• 30:49
  Don't shoot in Andy Dale, Mr. Tumble.
• 30:51
  Now he's got that same frisson. You know what it is.
• 30:54
  It's like shooting Fluella Benjamin in in The Sarah Jane
• 30:57
  Adventures. That's true.
• 31:00
  Here we go. Look fast, of course.
• 31:03
  Lila's missing. And that's delivered on the part
• 31:05
  of the Doctor, isn't it? He deliberately suppresses
• 31:07
  memories of Lila so that when he's Replicant goes to
• 31:10
  Gallifrey, she'll know there's something wrong when he doesn't
• 31:12
  recognize her. Is that a real though?
• 31:14
  Or is that they just forgot to put her in top?
• 31:19
  Absolute rush. He's got a stud in his ear.
• 31:25
  He has, yeah. Well, we know because he's going
• 31:26
  off down the same nightclub that Leslie Grantham's going to
• 31:28
  Daphos. They're going to get a trade
• 31:31
  later on. I think it's the pink parrot
• 31:33
  from the tripods, you know? They're rocking on down there.
• 31:37
  It's all right because they've got a few bent coppers to make
• 31:39
  sure it's obviously they're not going to get any trouble and
• 31:44
  then as well, isn't it? It's all very, very.
• 31:46
  It's very obvious, actually. But you know what?
• 31:49
  Our our central plot, you know, the novella virus and all of
• 31:52
  that. This is the first time that's
• 31:53
  really been dealt with in episode 2, isn't it?
• 31:55
  There's so much other shit going on.
• 31:57
  It's a real Terry Nation ISM as well of course that it's a it's
• 32:01
  a virus. You know nations.
• 32:03
  Is he in America at this point I think he is because of course
• 32:06
  he's got that executive producer because he's he's one of the
• 32:09
  weirdest facts about nation is he is he is an executive
• 32:12
  producer on The Giver. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 32:19
  Does Eric's say, would put space in front of anything?
• 32:22
  That's one of my favorite ticks of Terry Nation.
• 32:24
  That's space medicine. Space Assassins Space Command.
• 32:29
  I like, well, I've gone through the same team mate.
• 32:32
  We go through a nation of going. He's a bit of a hack to go and
• 32:34
  actually yeah, he's he's good stuff.
• 32:36
  I mean, Alan Turner is a colleague of mine at work and we
• 32:39
  did a, we did a talk on Terry Nation Survivors and it was very
• 32:43
  interesting look at Nation's career as a whole and how.
• 32:48
  Often it seems to go wrong and he's making money.
• 32:51
  It's a series and he can write an episode.
• 32:53
  One of a news Blake 7 is the way back.
• 32:56
  The Survivors opening episode. Like he has.
• 32:59
  He's an ideas man. He does have ideas.
• 33:01
  Yeah, it's. Always good to see Patrol, mind
• 33:06
  you. He's bloody bleak as well, isn't
• 33:08
  he? He will call what Eric say.
• 33:09
  Bleak Terry Nation. He's incredibly, I mean have you
• 33:13
  read the the book of survivors that he wrote?
• 33:16
  No. So Nation, obviously when he
• 33:18
  walked away still had rights to the episodes that he'd written.
• 33:22
  So he writes a book about Abby. And so he picks up when Abby
• 33:29
  leaves and she gets to Dove and and then she gets shot dead by
• 33:34
  her son Peter. He doesn't recognize her.
• 33:37
  And there's a sequel where Peter becomes this kind of heroic
• 33:39
  figure emerges to to to lead mankind.
• 33:42
  But yeah, Nation, in the the sort of reef of spin offering
• 33:47
  that Big Finish have done, those Survivors audios are
• 33:51
  unbelievably good. I don't know them almost, but
• 33:57
  very, very good drama. I.
• 33:59
  Think I think survivors. I think Terrence Dudley's vision
• 34:02
  for survivors isn't good, isn't as good as Terry Nations.
• 34:05
  I think there is something to do that isn't it?
• 34:07
  Or something growing parsnips, isn't it?
• 34:13
  Dudley has an idea that the BBC would stay on air as long as as
• 34:16
  possible and but actually always says that's probably true.
• 34:19
  Actually, the BBC would stay on at that level of crisis.
• 34:21
  But it's the difference between it's nation's line that he gives
• 34:26
  to. He actually plays Doctor,
• 34:28
  Doctor, Warlock in Pyramids and Mars.
• 34:30
  He's the teacher at the school, isn't he?
• 34:32
  It's the whole thing. Yeah, if you had to, if you had
• 34:35
  to make an axe, you know could you smell the owl and all that.
• 34:39
  Which of course, if you, if you look at when Nation is doing the
• 34:41
  publicity for, he uses the same story.
• 34:44
  Whereas of course don't be not really interested in that.
• 34:47
  So it becomes here's an interesting one.
• 34:50
  Tape to tape spool just been shot.
• 34:54
  So low tech, I mean they could have put ABBC Micro there if
• 34:57
  nothing else. And the diets love a bit of tape
• 34:59
  to tape sport because of course that's what they record in
• 35:02
  Genesis and the diets. A lot of time though, because
• 35:05
  obviously we saw a lot of it in the 70s.
• 35:07
  But it's 1984 and they've got BBC Micros because they'll put
• 35:10
  them in all the school, so you could do also.
• 35:12
  It's not meant it's not meant to be 84 though, is it?
• 35:15
  If if the if it's a die at the time and it had been 84 anyway.
• 35:18
  That's by the way, Terrence Dudley.
• 35:21
  Survivors ends obviously they get they find that Scottish
• 35:23
  valley and they get electricity back through the the war wheel
• 35:28
  driven power stations. There's two very different
• 35:30
  nations. Is far bleaker, is complete
• 35:32
  collapse of sight and try and start again like in Daleks.
• 35:38
  Yeah, I still think that Law and Order is one of the best single
• 35:41
  episodes of television. After I felt that was just
• 35:44
  brilliant. It's it's too bleak.
• 35:47
  I do days and it's just too. But also of course he's got the
• 35:50
  same title as the currently the longest run in crime scene on TV
• 35:53
  and the worst law and order Special Victims Union or
• 35:56
  essentially rape of the week. So I could the two my mind in
• 36:00
  quiet and unpleasant. Wait because of course this.
• 36:01
  Yeah, there's the rape in that as well.
• 36:03
  Here. We've got the right moral moment
• 36:05
  here for Davison in a scene that Moffett is clearly watched for
• 36:11
  death. If you if you listen to the
• 36:15
  speech that Davros has when he's trying to persuade the Doctor
• 36:18
  not to shoot him and suggesting given the doctrine army so that
• 36:22
  he can impose peace, that's what Missy offers the Doctor in Death
• 36:26
  in Heaven when she offers in the sideman Army kissed and knowing
• 36:32
  too much about time laws. That's the problem crossing.
• 36:35
  It's the kind being locked into continuity.
• 36:38
  Is the problem here as well, that.
• 36:43
  You don't need to know about the momentum virus.
• 36:45
  Why would you bother with that? You could just have that there's
• 36:47
  a virus is impacted that dies. Why tie it up?
• 36:50
  And it's the same. It's going to cripple attack on
• 36:52
  the side many It's just it's the whole kind of obsession with the
• 36:58
  20th anniversary and it just puts them on the wrong course.
• 37:01
  I think now that's why much in orders time in the run is
• 37:06
  reasonable in many, many ways. It isn't locked into continuity.
• 37:11
  It has the Ronnie comes back and then once you get into Paradise
• 37:14
  Towers, there's nothing. No, it's a new show.
• 37:17
  I think that's the first time there's no conspiracy since
• 37:20
  Vengeance of Our Ross, isn't it? Yeah, which is in this era.
• 37:26
  It's only second to Revelation of Daleks.
• 37:30
  Here's a speech now, because this is this speech, if you
• 37:34
  remember what what's the documentary called where they
• 37:37
  have ever talked in Iraq? Talking on the rack.
• 37:42
  You you were quite young at the time, but we we definitely
• 37:45
  watched it because I had a bad videotape of it.
• 37:47
  It was on it must be 92 before they showed that.
• 37:50
  You know that repeat run where they showed time Meddler and oh,
• 37:55
  the mind robber, there's, there's lots of clips.
• 37:59
  It's really exciting at the time because of clips you hadn't seen
• 38:01
  before and this is one of them. And so this seemed far more
• 38:05
  exciting at the time. And same with Davros ranting
• 38:07
  about. Whether that is, you'd be able
• 38:10
  to dice taking over everything that's in it as well.
• 38:12
  It's a talking error. He's got a Brahmi accent.
• 38:14
  Is Isaac. What's it called?
• 38:17
  Resistance is futile or resistance is useless.
• 38:19
  That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 38:23
  Yeah, this scene is in that as the hype and and then Davidson
• 38:27
  the close up in episode three of Pezone Designee.
• 38:29
  But here's the speech Muffin is is in isolation.
• 38:33
  You could probably pick a ton of scenes of this and put them in a
• 38:35
  documentary and it would be enticing.
• 38:39
  So do you know what? I'm saying there's there's in
• 38:40
  isolation, like the Dalek being pushed out the window and things
• 38:43
  like that. The Dalek mutant attacking the
• 38:46
  man on his on his neck. It's, it's, it's, it's trailer
• 38:51
  fuel, isn't it? I think there's a good one hour
• 38:54
  episode, one hour story here somewhere buried in this script
• 38:59
  and with some of these performances having spent a long
• 39:02
  time pouring bit trail on it. Deserve it.
• 39:07
  The other thing, because I think there's a lot of things wrong
• 39:08
  here. There are individual bits, new
• 39:10
  and and that's frustrating. The individual bits make you
• 39:13
  question why the rest of it goes wrong.
• 39:16
  Here's Robinson as soap opera director.
• 39:19
  This seems really good because he can operate within that small
• 39:22
  space with two figures. You're going to see bad stuff.
• 39:25
  Then when he tries to have a full on war between dykes and
• 39:28
  troopers in a very small space and it doesn't work.
• 39:31
  What I love about that sequence between him and Davros is he he
• 39:33
  puts that camera right in Peter Davidson's face and he's not
• 39:36
  scared of it so and he and he emotes and for a second there's
• 39:40
  a there's a shred of emotion on the screen which is quite nice.
• 39:44
  Do you know, I was just thinking about Terence Dicks, right In a
• 39:46
  commentary that he was doing in the 70s, He was talking about
• 39:53
  how he refused to pander to Doctor Who fans.
• 39:57
  And he will. He goes, because they're going
• 39:58
  to watch it anyway, so. So.
• 40:00
  So who cares about them? We'll just make good television.
• 40:03
  That happens to be Doctor Who. And that's the problem here is
• 40:07
  that ain't happening anymore. I mean, I I don't know how
• 40:12
  suited say what is to the program anyway and I think how
• 40:15
  he's how he's appointed just reads wrong because of course 19
• 40:21
  bigmead leaves root is in place. It is root isn't it?
• 40:25
  And then I don't know how. I don't know how say what gets
• 40:28
  appointed based on the visitation.
• 40:33
  It's OK it's whether of course the bigmease only lasted a
• 40:41
  season and and Barry Letts has gone and and they've got this
• 40:46
  new format of twice weekly and it's moved into in away from
• 40:50
  Saturday's where where are the script edits and I mean they
• 40:54
  kind of get away with it I think because Castro is very good in
• 41:00
  there's an awesome script I think I don't know how far it
• 41:03
  always is on the screen. A shock is unlike anything Dogs
• 41:08
  who's done before. It is that type of space opera
• 41:12
  that maybe there's attempts to do Pirate planet maybe.
• 41:18
  Certainly like Raviden. I think this some of the
• 41:22
  material in in horns and over this is really here.
• 41:25
  Big spaceships. This is Star Wars.
• 41:27
  This is Alien. We can do this.
• 41:29
  We've got melting bodies here as well of course.
• 41:30
  There's another say with this season 20 though and that's
• 41:34
  really you can feel continuity really digging its neck and
• 41:40
  digging its teeth into the neck of the shot and and and all the
• 41:44
  other problems like industrial action, problems with lighting.
• 41:47
  I think Mary Ridge is a good director.
• 41:49
  I just think she's really has pulled the shorts or they were
• 41:52
  Terminus. I really like Terminus.
• 41:53
  I think. I think it's a really good story
• 41:55
  there. I think it's clever
• 41:57
  enlightenment I find quite boring.
• 41:58
  But the central concept is is very interesting.
• 42:01
  I'm going to watch it again there.
• 42:03
  But then kings, demons, and then you get into this and there's
• 42:06
  just coming back to the sense of where is the direction of
• 42:08
  travel. And I think, I think continuity
• 42:11
  is starting to eat away at the show.
• 42:13
  And I think there's something around the emergence of
• 42:16
  conventions. I think there's the
• 42:18
  relationship. New production, office and
• 42:19
  fandom changes. Yeah.
• 42:22
  What were they like? That's the trouble.
• 42:23
  They let them in and you know, they were going to always going
• 42:25
  to get bitten on the arse. And that's exactly what
• 42:27
  happened. But of course, like Sword is is
• 42:32
  on record as say many times, you know, we just couldn't find the
• 42:34
  writers. People couldn't write Doctor Who
• 42:36
  distinctively. But this is effectively him
• 42:39
  giving his writers A blueprint of what he wants.
• 42:43
  Yeah, I mean, I think, I think I read that Johnny Byrne saw Earth
• 42:47
  shot and he thought you'd have a go at that.
• 42:49
  And that's how you get worries in the deep, I mean, but there's
• 42:52
  I don't. Know Warriors So Deep actually
• 42:54
  is a reasonably structured script where it's very linear,
• 42:59
  But you know, I can see the path they're going down and the
• 43:02
  conclusion that they're coming to.
• 43:03
  I don't think a lot of it works and I think it is pedestrian in
• 43:07
  its direction, but it's it's more easier to follow than this,
• 43:13
  Yeah, because it's a single plot line.
• 43:15
  I mean, this is quite well done, but it's guns, you see.
• 43:18
  So there's it's proper noise. So there's some terrible
• 43:21
  overacting deaths, you know, one, We just have the disco one.
• 43:23
  Oh yeah, This one as well, Yeah. I sort of stand there suspended
• 43:27
  and shake for a bit. Don't know.
• 43:29
  They they. I mean, we're not interested in
• 43:32
  that because they're replicas. Why do we care?
• 43:35
  It's Dali's killing their own thing.
• 43:37
  Because this all becomes very messy here.
• 43:38
  Kill Davros, kill Litton, kill everyone.
• 43:42
  And then the darts come along saying, oh, like he's he's Stein
• 43:45
  and. What we're saying like the
• 43:48
  universe is just fucked. Everybody die.
• 43:51
  That's pleasant. I mean, Russell T Davis, isn't
• 43:57
  he? He says in another show.
• 43:58
  You could kill Rose at the end of Doomsday, but you couldn't in
• 44:02
  Doctor Who. And I think that's right.
• 44:05
  I mean, we've seen bleakness before, I think.
• 44:08
  I think when you did the Overview of the 60s, you point
• 44:11
  to that run of stories in Season 3, Dalek, Master Plan and The
• 44:17
  Myth Makers. They are very, very bleak.
• 44:21
  They are very bleak. But this style and their skill
• 44:26
  to the structure and their storytelling and there's
• 44:28
  characters and they're doing something interesting.
• 44:30
  Myth makers, the masculine to the most interesting stories of
• 44:33
  old who full stop certainly of of of heart was run.
• 44:36
  They're really looking at what the historical can do now.
• 44:39
  The last of the kind, of course, because they're going to move
• 44:42
  with gunfighters and and smugglers into the type stories
• 44:46
  that you get in film. So Westerns and pirates, the
• 44:51
  massacre that shouldn't exist in Doctor Who, that that that's
• 44:54
  such a bizarre idea for Doctor Who that you look at that
• 44:58
  particular period in history and you shouldn't, it shouldn't
• 45:00
  work. And who knows, maybe it didn't
• 45:01
  work. But on on the audio it certainly
• 45:04
  works and one of of stories. No, like look at parting in the
• 45:09
  ways, which is effectively a massacre featuring Daleks, but.
• 45:15
  It really effects you when Linda with a wide eyes that's an it's
• 45:20
  an incredibly moment. I love playing the ways I I
• 45:24
  absolutely I mean that that I I become one of your angels.
• 45:30
  The music building up You are the heathen then Rose Pierce
• 45:33
  that I can feel tears prickly every time I watch that it and
• 45:37
  Linda's death works on the motion level that this I'm
• 45:40
  watching this and I'm just going, what is going on here?
• 45:44
  But like, you know, you know the bit where the Daleks suddenly
• 45:47
  they're not going up anymore, They're going down and they're
• 45:49
  going to murder all those contestants that are down.
• 45:52
  And then you cut to Linda's reaction and she literally,
• 45:56
  she's trying to turn off the console because she just doesn't
• 45:58
  want to listen to it anymore. And you, it's just horrible.
• 46:02
  But you really feel it. That's what There's just no
• 46:06
  heart to this, is there? Darle is just saying what's
• 46:08
  happening and then they have to tell you what's happening
• 46:10
  because visually they can't tell you what's happening.
• 46:13
  And because the scripts got so confused, we don't know Daleks.
• 46:17
  Bart, can you show if the dialects are any good?
• 46:19
  One would shoot the other while they're talking, but this makes
• 46:23
  the dialects visible. It really, really does.
• 46:25
  I mean, I mean dialects of war you've seen done better in Evil
• 46:29
  of the Dialects. Well, I don't buy as well that
• 46:33
  Daleks talking to each other has to necessarily be boring.
• 46:37
  I don't think that's the case in Power of the Dialects.
• 46:39
  I don't think it's the case in Evil of the Dialects.
• 46:41
  I don't think it's the case in in Jesus Christ, that fabulous
• 46:45
  scene in Doomsday where you've got the Dalek and the sidemen
• 46:48
  talking to each other down the corridor.
• 46:50
  But even Revelation now, because that's because Harper has made
• 46:57
  an odd decision about the voice in in Revelation, hasn't he?
• 47:01
  That the the the new dialects are unmoderated because of how
• 47:05
  they've been constructed so. That's Roy Skeleton, isn't it?
• 47:09
  Zippy. Yeah.
• 47:13
  Skeleton's an amazing voice artist.
• 47:15
  So if you if you watch him on Cyber in the early years where
• 47:18
  he talks about the voice moderator, they had to watch, I
• 47:20
  mean I know that's going back a long way.
• 47:23
  That's the first time, man. It is not big bad, is it just
• 47:27
  that that that Mondassian side man voice.
• 47:30
  Here we go. Litton.
• 47:31
  Dr. Doctor. And don't forget.
• 47:34
  Stop. Looking very hot.
• 47:40
  This is quite Davis is quite good in this building.
• 47:42
  And you know what? Taking until I have nothing to
• 47:45
  do at all. I mean as a leaving story.
• 47:47
  It's so incompetent. It's unbelievable.
• 47:50
  Janet feeling should have just she should have freaked out and
• 47:54
  walked off. I mean she's concussed for half
• 47:56
  of it and he's only concussion. But it's a lot of we must get
• 47:59
  her to hospital. Where's the ambulance?
• 48:01
  We must get to the hospital. Is Davos checking in the skate
• 48:04
  pod that he would have no way of building what's in that green
• 48:07
  vase? Is it absent?
• 48:09
  It must be. It looks like.
• 48:13
  Before they go down the disco, here we go.
• 48:20
  The central problem in this Nil. Go on.
• 48:22
  Well, let's see. Dal is coming.
• 48:26
  Another door being blown open. They're they're about to start
• 48:42
  spunking, aren't they? Yeah, it's me.
• 48:44
  Think of Adam and Joe's. Exterminate Exterminate sketches
• 48:48
  from from back in the day. The only point I think it works
• 48:53
  is that bit in the warehouse where they're just gargling and
• 48:57
  talking incoherently. And I'm like, oh sorry, nasty is
• 49:00
  going on inside that case. Otherwise it does just look
• 49:03
  like, you know, a lot of Gillette flying about the place
• 49:09
  when we cut back to Davros as we moment the casing has caved in.
• 49:16
  So does the movellum virus affect the mutant or the casing
• 49:21
  or both? Clearly both has to be, because
• 49:25
  if it's only the casing which would imply, then why Davros
• 49:28
  starts spunking everywhere? Because it is only the chair
• 49:31
  section. Because of course he's a
• 49:32
  different type of colour, isn't he?
• 49:33
  That's the whole point of the whole bloody thing.
• 49:35
  This weird discourse around purity and augmentation is
• 49:39
  always at the heart of the dice from Genesis onwards.
• 49:42
  And he's daring and parking the ways when the God emperor Dyke
• 49:45
  turns up and he talks about pure and blessed darling flesh.
• 49:50
  So it has to attack the casing as well, because if it doesn't,
• 49:53
  if it's just the casing it attacks, then they don't need
• 49:56
  Daryl. All these do is redesign their
• 49:58
  casing. So again, not thought through
• 50:01
  properly at all. What's on the script and what's
• 50:03
  realized on the screen. I mean it might just be that
• 50:06
  this is there you go look what's happened there.
• 50:09
  He's collapsed. Therefore the casing has to be
• 50:11
  affected. But we're never told that
• 50:12
  they're interlink by in such a way.
• 50:14
  So it's a very, very clever virus.
• 50:16
  But then, you know the Mevellans were disco funk robots from the
• 50:20
  late 70s. So they were cutting edge, were
• 50:24
  great. He's had to take out their Power
• 50:26
  Pack and they do a slow mime to their deaths.
• 50:30
  Davros having a power wank there but looks a bit it looks like.
• 50:36
  I do. I'm going to talk about that
• 50:38
  image, you know, it's the hand there, he says.
• 50:41
  He got caught out. Oh.
• 50:43
  Yeah, there, that. I mean, that's pretty nasty.
• 50:47
  It's this sort of image you'd only get on Doctor Who.
• 50:49
  Do you know that bit a second ago when Litton shot the guard?
• 50:53
  That's with him. He goes, are they going?
• 50:55
  And so are you. And then just shoots him.
• 50:57
  It's like that is just indicative of what's Why would
• 51:00
  you have to do that? There's a problem in that say
• 51:04
  what is trying to introduce James Bond style comments and
• 51:09
  it's going to bite him hard in season 22.
• 51:12
  So when Columbic could kill Shockheit when the 6th had to
• 51:16
  kill Shockheit. But also it's why do people
• 51:19
  misunderstand what happens in the Asibas scene in Venues and
• 51:21
  Varus? Because you always hear the
• 51:23
  doctor pushes them into the Asibas.
• 51:24
  No, he doesn't. One bloke tries to push him and
• 51:27
  he wrestles and the guard falls into the bath and then he pulls
• 51:30
  his mate in and then Baker goes, don't you excuse me if I don't
• 51:37
  join you or something like that. And he might as well do it as a
• 51:39
  cod. Sean Connery.
• 51:41
  Don't mind if I don't join you or raise his eyebrow like Roger
• 51:45
  Moore. And it's the same with your just
• 51:46
  desserts in two dots. But you can see the rock is
• 51:52
  here. I mean that's quite good effect
• 51:54
  when he shoots him, but then Rodney viewers face that's very
• 51:57
  similar to the effect you're going to get in Revelation of
• 52:00
  the Daleks as well when the swirl from around Orsini.
• 52:03
  When when he again it's it's just a bomb at the end, isn't
• 52:07
  it? But.
• 52:07
  The entire ship blows up. Everybody that's already dead is
• 52:11
  buffed. So.
• 52:11
  So none of it meant anything. Not really, no.
• 52:16
  But Litton survives. And and the and the and the
• 52:18
  policeman who is never actually stating this.
• 52:20
  They're robots, which I think they become robots when you get
• 52:23
  to it. See, I don't think that's ever
• 52:26
  explicitly stated. And I have a story.
• 52:28
  It's not. Are they, Are they replicants?
• 52:30
  I don't know. It's just it's very odd.
• 52:32
  It's kind of sinister. The whole thing about police
• 52:35
  don't make policemen frightening that letter, that Barry, let's
• 52:37
  go. It's just irrelevant now, isn't
• 52:39
  it? I mean the relationship with the
• 52:42
  police has changed in the 13 years between terror of the
• 52:46
  orphans prompted questions in the House of Parliament now
• 52:49
  because of course she's had the whole corruption saga in the in
• 52:53
  the Met, which is dramatized in our friends in the North.
• 52:56
  You've got just after this, you've got the shoot to kill
• 53:01
  inquiry in Northern Ireland. So I think people were more
• 53:06
  willing to accept that the police weren't necessarily
• 53:12
  arrogance of virtue by the time this comes out, which is how
• 53:15
  they get away with it, I think in Attack of the Sidemen.
• 53:18
  Of course you do have another policeman, don't you have the
• 53:21
  undercover policeman? Oh.
• 53:24
  Lloyd's character, yeah, he's killed off like very quickly and
• 53:29
  needless. And again is another example of
• 53:31
  how say would introduce his characters and then doesn't
• 53:34
  really know what to do with them.
• 53:35
  And here's Janet Fielding off. I mean, I I mean, Janet Fielding
• 53:39
  is she's having a good thing, isn't she?
• 53:40
  I've never really got the the liking for Tegan.
• 53:46
  I think she's grown on me over the years.
• 53:48
  Oh yeah, I know, I know you haven't listened to a great deal
• 53:51
  of Big Finish, but actually, I feel like they've perfected her
• 53:54
  character because they write her with a lot of humor, which was
• 53:57
  completely absent on screen. On screen, she's just crabby.
• 54:01
  Humor is not allowed in this version of Doctor Who.
• 54:04
  And again, I think that might be part of the problem with with
• 54:07
  Baker. People have forgotten that the
• 54:09
  Doctor can be funny and the show can be funny, but it's
• 54:12
  particularly macabre type of humor that creeps in there, in
• 54:16
  creeps in this entirely, isn't it?
• 54:18
  It's thrust into the show in season you couldn't imagine, I
• 54:23
  don't think Paul Darrow's character from Time Lash rocking
• 54:31
  up during the Davidson run. I don't.
• 54:33
  I don't they're going to allow that type of thing to go on
• 54:36
  there and of. Course, I think what you said
• 54:37
  earlier about Colin Baker being just naturally funnier as well,
• 54:41
  I think they they give him, they try and give him comedy lines.
• 54:44
  But I think actually it's the moments he finds on his own to
• 54:47
  be funny in season 22 that land. I think that's right.
• 54:52
  I mean I I think I think it's just better a run, better run
• 54:57
  of. So I think Tank of Simon is a
• 55:00
  better story. In this Benjamin Barros put it
• 55:02
  Mark. He's a really great fit for the
• 55:04
  program. I think even Mark of the Ronnie,
• 55:09
  I've got a lot of time for. I mean, they're not the best
• 55:11
  writers in the world, but it lets Baker do something
• 55:14
  different, and it's picking up that theme of transformation
• 55:16
  that's running through the script.
• 55:17
  The the the weak scripts there I think are timeless and weird
• 55:20
  enough to doctors. I'm not sure two doctors really
• 55:23
  works at all. I think I think this essentially
• 55:26
  6 parts don't work. It's interesting to give it to
• 55:28
  homes because those homes is there when they essentially move
• 55:31
  away from six part, they kind of break the terrain of the six
• 55:34
  part under under himself and Hinchcliff because six parts
• 55:37
  don't always work and there's a lot wrong with two doctors, a
• 55:42
  lot wrong. I think a lot of it has to do
• 55:44
  with down with with design, but it's also how far it's gone too
• 55:50
  far in a particular direction of that type of story and you're
• 55:53
  back to them. What is say would actually do
• 55:55
  with the show? What's his vision or is it
• 55:57
  something that he and Holmes have come up with themselves and
• 55:59
  really it's Holmes doing what trying to be wanted to do
• 56:05
  earlier on but wasn't able to. I mean that kind of body horror.
• 56:08
  There is an argument isn't there.
• 56:11
  It's in the it's in the it's in that book of scripts that were
• 56:12
  released for season 12 that the Simon should be the obvious
• 56:16
  Holmes monster. But he doesn't he doesn't like
• 56:18
  and so rendered Simon doesn't look at the transformation at
• 56:21
  all but then he come you know season 2 is about cannibalism
• 56:25
  and transformation and here he is with the episode that's got
• 56:28
  both of them written large in it while he's trying to have this
• 56:31
  anti meat message and it doesn't doesn't quite necessarily land
• 56:34
  but I don't I don't know that's so that's finished you
• 56:39
  noticeably actually ending which tells you a lot about.
• 56:43
  What we were talking anyway. Helen, about Saywood is what J&T
• 56:49
  says in his Diaries that were published in Doctor Who Magazine
• 56:52
  was, you know, they went off the air for 18 months and when it
• 56:55
  came back for a trial of a Time Lord, he had 18 months, he was
• 56:58
  still sitting in the office, You know, he had all that extra time
• 57:01
  to get those scripts in for trial of a Time Lord and he just
• 57:04
  couldn't do it. Even with the extra time, he
• 57:07
  couldn't do it. I mean, but who?
• 57:09
  Whose idea is the trial structure, though?
• 57:16
  Who does that get pinned to say pins at the JNT.
• 57:20
  But he's not around to actually correct that view because it's
• 57:28
  there was a really interesting I think it's Paul Cornell writes
• 57:30
  it that there's a version of trial of a time or the builds to
• 57:34
  the Daleks of the big and that there was a way of that it
• 57:38
  works. And that actually you have this
• 57:40
  big six part at the end of it rather than trying to do it all
• 57:42
  in in in two. And again it's another season
• 57:45
  where the scripts are dropping like a stone because was it
• 57:48
  Trevor Story is meant to write one but all he comes up with is
• 57:51
  the view of somebody, isn't it? Someone sitting in a gas silo
• 57:55
  playing a saxophone. Right.
• 57:57
  Yeah, that's essentially what you would do with McCoy.
• 58:00
  I think that's not too far off that they opened the safe in
• 58:03
  season 27. McCoy falls out and says what
• 58:06
  took you so long? So of course, if if the answer
• 58:09
  to your question is Pip and Jane Baker, I think you've probably
• 58:13
  asked the wrong question, Although they do equip
• 58:15
  themselves quite well in Mark the Right and you know, tear the
• 58:18
  verb voice is is all right. If you imagine tear the verb
• 58:21
  voice as a stand alone episode no longer see, he's new, that
• 58:24
  was that was OK. But they do see.
• 58:26
  They remember to put the Doctor front and centre.
• 58:29
  They remember the kids as well, which I really like and they do
• 58:32
  just remember to make Doctor Who colourful and fun and funny and
• 58:37
  they can they can structure an episode because there are old
• 58:39
  hands that do something. And again it it there is a
• 58:41
  serious point there that they can't get Rikers but the the
• 58:46
  compounding factories can say would write Doctor Who.
• 58:52
  I mean, I think he he can because I think he does write a
• 58:56
  great script in Revelation. Is it Doctor Who?
• 59:00
  I'm not sure. Again you come back to he
• 59:03
  doesn't really want to. He what he's writing isn't
• 59:06
  really Doctor Who. It's got the word on it, the
• 59:07
  name on it, rather the title on it and he has to have the
• 59:10
  character but they're interesting experiments.
• 59:13
  They're almost doctor like stories.
• 59:15
  Before there was a concept of the Doctor like story and I
• 59:19
  think Revelation is hands down his best script and and it's the
• 59:24
  best story in season 22 and it's a really great example of what
• 59:27
  what they could do. I think Malloy is great in it.
• 59:30
  William Gaunt is great in there. Ellen LeBron, who you know, had
• 59:35
  that incredible career in 1960. She's there and with the the the
• 59:40
  major Sapphire movements is kind of this forgotten figure.
• 59:45
  But you were left thinking of why?
• 59:47
  Why do we have that now? But a year ago we had this, and
• 59:52
  a lot of the people of it seem to think it's really good and it
• 59:55
  really, really isn't unless you just watch it.
• 59:59
  Even if you turn your brain off, I don't think it works because
• 1:00:01
  there's there's visuals in it that just don't work.
• 1:00:03
  And yeah, I don't think there was an adverse reaction to this
• 1:00:06
  at the time. I think this polled well in the
• 1:00:08
  DWM survey. Like we said, the ratings were
• 1:00:11
  good, people were eating it up. But I don't.
• 1:00:15
  I don't believe this was the standard of television in the
• 1:00:18
  mid 8. No, no, I mean, I I think, I
• 1:00:22
  think that because they try and tell essentially the same type
• 1:00:25
  of story four times in the season.
• 1:00:29
  The budget's not there and and you do end up playing you're
• 1:00:33
  you're telling the same story four different times in the
• 1:00:36
  season. Well, you just gave me some
• 1:00:38
  wonderful reasons as to why we should watch Revelation of the
• 1:00:41
  Daleks. Unfortunately, I'm now you're in
• 1:00:44
  the disadvantageous position of having to give me.
• 1:00:48
  I'm almost tempted to say 3 reasons why not to watch
• 1:00:51
  Resurrection of the Daleks and just do that for the first time
• 1:00:54
  ever, but could you find three things, three things to
• 1:00:58
  recommend for this story? I I I think so.
• 1:01:02
  I think I think it's probably necessary to watch in order to
• 1:01:05
  set up the idea of the Daleks. Civil War.
• 1:01:07
  It's going to play out in the next two and a kind of a a
• 1:01:13
  bridge back to Destiny of the Daleks.
• 1:01:16
  I think Terry Malloy emerges as a good Davros at this point, but
• 1:01:21
  he's not a great Davros yet. He's a great Davros in
• 1:01:24
  Revelation of the Dark when he's written.
• 1:01:26
  Very, very different at this point.
• 1:01:27
  He's not as good as Michael Wisher.
• 1:01:29
  He will become as good as Michael Wisher.
• 1:01:30
  I I think, and I I do wonder what it would have been like
• 1:01:32
  with Michael Wisher in it. I think of an example of how not
• 1:01:36
  to write Doctor Who. It's a good thing to watch as
• 1:01:39
  well. So kind of a negative reason, I
• 1:01:42
  think. I think Davidson is good in it,
• 1:01:44
  even though he doesn't really do anything.
• 1:01:46
  Really, until the end. So there, There's four reasons
• 1:01:49
  to watch it. One's negative and then three.
• 1:01:51
  So I can do positives for you. Three as well, though there's a
• 1:01:54
  trouble. I'm going to Jesus Christ the
• 1:01:59
  Lord. I think you might have taken all
• 1:02:01
  the best as well. OK, I'm going to say I think
• 1:02:05
  that Matthew Robinson does not have the budget to achieve
• 1:02:10
  everything he wants to do, but he does capture some arresting
• 1:02:17
  imagery at time. I don't like what he's doing,
• 1:02:20
  but things like that, close up on that horrible melted face,
• 1:02:24
  Dalek going out the window, stuff like that.
• 1:02:26
  The opening shots, you know, through the Crisscross walkways
• 1:02:29
  and things like that. For Matthew Robinson does acquit
• 1:02:32
  himself well. But I mean, he's got that script
• 1:02:35
  to work with, so he can only deliver the script he's been
• 1:02:39
  handed. And he does it gamely.
• 1:02:45
  It's nice to see Ruler Lenska. I don't know, she's quite fun.
• 1:02:47
  Lenska. Yeah.
• 1:02:50
  And finally, oh good God. Oh, I I actually know the fact
• 1:02:54
  that he puts a woman into that role and that you've got a woman
• 1:02:57
  as the scientist working with the team, and the fact that
• 1:03:01
  you've got three faces from the black and ethnic minority
• 1:03:05
  community. There you go.
• 1:03:07
  That'll be master the ethnic representation, which is very
• 1:03:11
  refreshing. But then I would skip forward to
• 1:03:14
  say, Battlefield in the season 26, where there is some
• 1:03:18
  phenomenal representation. And you know what?
• 1:03:22
  They're all characters as well, and they're fun to hang around
• 1:03:24
  with. And you know, they all service
• 1:03:26
  the story, so. I had to go through season 25
• 1:03:30
  when all the black characters are associated with jazz or
• 1:03:33
  slavery. Or some type of or rap as well.
• 1:03:36
  So but it's a process and yeah I think once you hit 26 yeah,
• 1:03:41
  suddenly 2026 is looking is pointing forward to knew who in
• 1:03:46
  really significant ways. I think truly denied A
• 1:03:51
  fascinating period of Doctor Who in the 90s weren't we?
• 1:03:54
  I know we had a lot of stuff coming out they were churning
• 1:03:57
  out stories in the 90s. But I think given what you see
• 1:04:02
  being made at the time, stuff like Bugs and Crime Traveller
• 1:04:08
  and things like that, and then just how although there was a
• 1:04:10
  sudden wave of American cult TV shows that came in in sort of
• 1:04:16
  mid to late 90s, it would have been so interesting.
• 1:04:23
  So BBT gets locked into that. They know they want Doctor Who,
• 1:04:26
  but they don't want Doctor Who. So you get shows that could be
• 1:04:29
  Doctor Who, but they're not Doctor Who.
• 1:04:30
  Crime Trap is the obvious one, Bugs as well, and Bugs is kind
• 1:04:33
  of linked with. I've written on this and I can't
• 1:04:37
  remember what I linked it to, but also if you think something
• 1:04:40
  like virtual murder. Which is kind of looking towards
• 1:04:43
  almost modern Scotty, those type of figures.
• 1:04:46
  So it's there, but you have to wait until that generation get
• 1:04:51
  into a position of making TV. Who'd watched the program in the
• 1:04:54
  1970s and 80s in particular. And I think this weird enough,
• 1:05:00
  this is the touch point for for Moffatt more so than say the
• 1:05:05
  70s, whereas I think for Aronovich and that.
• 1:05:09
  Slightly earlier. They're really 70s figures.
• 1:05:14
  Davis, I think, can go across everything, I think.
• 1:05:16
  I think he's got such a totally grasp of it.
• 1:05:18
  It's hard to say what his favorite period is or he's
• 1:05:22
  always more 80s as well, isn't he?
• 1:05:24
  Because like he cherry picks Ace and Tegan and the power of the
• 1:05:27
  Doctor. Which is fascinating given his
• 1:05:30
  absolute programme for season 23, when they let him loose on
• 1:05:33
  whatever that terrible TV programme is, where Paki Cool
• 1:05:36
  was clearly quite drunk. And John Nathan Turner is quite
• 1:05:40
  cross and and it's Pippin Jane Baker isn't it They they turn up
• 1:05:44
  like they've escaped from play school in the in the in the 70s
• 1:05:48
  they go I think you Doctor Ruth has a bit.
• 1:05:51
  I'm grateful. Do you?
• 1:05:54
  Know is it was a weird period. It's interesting that the storm
• 1:05:58
  breaks after after this, I think.
• 1:06:02
  I think a lot of it is Goodwills towards Davidson, I think.
• 1:06:06
  And I think because there's just, there's just enough good
• 1:06:08
  stories in that season, because if you knock out frontiers, and
• 1:06:12
  if Case Andrazzani is by another author or it's by a different
• 1:06:17
  director, suddenly you've got a season that's looking really
• 1:06:22
  roping and do the fan stick with it and what's building that it's
• 1:06:27
  going to explode 22. But yeah, your bigger issue, of
• 1:06:30
  course, is forces with the BBC themselves.
• 1:06:33
  And they must be looking at 21 and 22.
• 1:06:36
  It can't just be 22 because it's it's that's a big decision.
• 1:06:40
  No, no, we know Greg turned on Warriors of the Deep and saw
• 1:06:43
  that Merka heading down that corridor, said.
• 1:06:46
  Are we wasting money on this shit?
• 1:06:49
  See that they're they're caught because if if, if you, if you
• 1:06:51
  read the other stories that they're advised to drop it and
• 1:06:54
  John Nathan Turner refused to drop it because of the money
• 1:06:57
  they spent on it. So by not dropping it.
• 1:07:00
  They expose themselves to having spent money on it, but if they
• 1:07:02
  hadn't put it on screen, they've also wasted the money on it.
• 1:07:05
  So yeah, I mean it's they're on the crisis aren't always on
• 1:07:11
  fault. But the problem is when you sit
• 1:07:14
  down and write the script, do you actually think they can
• 1:07:17
  produce something like the Merca and realistically you don't is
• 1:07:20
  interesting. Johnny Burn had come from Space
• 1:07:24
  1999, where they do have a bigger budget.
• 1:07:27
  I don't know. Their monsters always work.
• 1:07:29
  I think that Dragons domain, this is spectacularly nasty
• 1:07:32
  piece of television and does kind of work.
• 1:07:35
  That tentacle one with the big lie that sucks people in and
• 1:07:38
  then spits out dried husks. Absolutely terrifying.
• 1:07:42
  So he it might be that he's thinking in those terms, though
• 1:07:45
  of course the budget doesn't save it.
• 1:07:48
  It's just another one of those short lived shows in the end
• 1:07:50
  that that we remember. Because of the scares and
• 1:07:53
  because the because the spaceship looked really good.
• 1:07:55
  But actually if you sit and watch the back-to-back, some of
• 1:07:57
  these efforts are really, really boring.
• 1:07:59
  And of course the tonal shift between season one and season 2
• 1:08:02
  is as bad as the tonal shift between season one and season 2
• 1:08:05
  of but Rogers and that doesn't last beyond that second season
• 1:08:07
  either. And then you look at what
• 1:08:08
  happens with say bounce to Galactica Galactic Grady and
• 1:08:11
  it's Gary Coleman as a as a child president and and they're
• 1:08:15
  running around on quad plays. It's all weird stuff, I mean.
• 1:08:19
  There isn't like there is. There is certainly a sense that
• 1:08:22
  there's a crisis. Is overtaking of these crisis a
• 1:08:26
  lot actually crisis the wrong word here.
• 1:08:27
  But but come 198081, you're losing a lot of TV sci-fi and
• 1:08:35
  fantasy in this country. You know you get the last of the
• 1:08:38
  Quaker masses which had already been delayed from the 70s.
• 1:08:41
  Saffron still finishes, Blake Sevens finished, and Doctor Who
• 1:08:47
  seems to be running into trouble.
• 1:08:49
  But it's against the backdrop where these shows aren't getting
• 1:08:52
  made in the 70s. You have a lot of short lived
• 1:08:53
  stuff and waiting about Moonbase 3, you think about Doom Watch,
• 1:08:56
  but at least they're producing these things.
• 1:08:58
  By the time you get to 89 and Doctor Who's been cancelled, the
• 1:09:02
  only the last man standing is Red Bull and I don't know if
• 1:09:08
  that's produced for the comedy part of Bbci Can't Remember, but
• 1:09:10
  he's he's light entertainment, yeah.
• 1:09:13
  Which is always treated differently.
• 1:09:14
  And of course, you think about the the young ones.
• 1:09:19
  Famously at the start of the decade they have music accent
• 1:09:23
  because they have a higher budget.
• 1:09:24
  So Doctor Who could have somehow squeezed music accent.
• 1:09:27
  They might have got more money, but enterprises should have been
• 1:09:29
  kicking money into it anyway because they were making money.
• 1:09:30
  Doctor Who never lost the money, so the money could have been
• 1:09:34
  there if they could have moved it across.
• 1:09:35
  But I don't. I don't know this.
• 1:09:36
  I think the seasons are too long.
• 1:09:38
  The budget just isn't there for them.
• 1:09:40
  But the issue is or is around the right hand as well and this
• 1:09:42
  is a prime example. The show is starting to eat
• 1:09:44
  itself. But the fans are lapping up
• 1:09:46
  because he's got the Dave Ross and it's got Daleks and he's got
• 1:09:49
  referencing the vellums and it's got flashback and and it's kind
• 1:09:55
  of hard and grippy and they think that's what sci-fi should
• 1:09:56
  look like, even though they're fans of a show where they know
• 1:09:59
  it should never really look like that.
• 1:10:01
  They should be some something to leaven that level of nastiness.
• 1:10:04
  Even though in 1213 and 14, which is as bleak as the show,
• 1:10:08
  you get up at that point. Not in terms of type of story
• 1:10:11
  they're telling, not. The kind of the three stories we
• 1:10:13
  spoke about in season three, there's a still a lightness of
• 1:10:18
  touch there. There's characters we care
• 1:10:19
  about. As you said, there's there's
• 1:10:21
  there's comedy, even if it's very dark comedy, and it's just
• 1:10:24
  it's just not here. Even though Dave's background is
• 1:10:27
  sitcoms, and you've got the Doctor in the system right at
• 1:10:30
  the heart of the story as well, which that's not here either.
• 1:10:33
  It's two, It's two. It's the doctor and the
• 1:10:35
  assistant. It's not an overloaded.
• 1:10:37
  And TARDIS, because of course here you've got the Doctor and
• 1:10:40
  you've got Tegan and you've got Turner, and nobody really cares
• 1:10:42
  about Turner because he's never developed properly.
• 1:10:44
  But you've then got Stein and you've got Styles and you've got
• 1:10:47
  Littman, who's really what you know, what they want to write
• 1:10:53
  about. And it just it's spread too
• 1:10:55
  thin. And what's interesting is 22
• 1:10:58
  takes you back to the Doctor and the Companion, and for the most
• 1:11:01
  part they put the IT just feels. Much closer to .2 I did. 22 I
• 1:11:07
  think is tremendous in many, many respects and it's a shame
• 1:11:11
  the plug was pulled because there was a sense in which they
• 1:11:13
  shifting it into a different direction and if they just get a
• 1:11:17
  bit longer. But you know, 21 I think does
• 1:11:22
  and it's part of this general rejection of sci-fi and this
• 1:11:25
  move into prestige TV. I mean, ITV is interesting
• 1:11:27
  because at the same point we don't know about ITV in terms of
• 1:11:30
  sci-fi, but they're producing quite interesting.
• 1:11:33
  One off series of fantasy and also of course Robin Sherwood is
• 1:11:36
  just we're going to show that he's going to make a monkey .2
• 1:11:39
  at this point. And of course he he he does
• 1:11:42
  appear this year and it's showing what you can do if
• 1:11:45
  there's a bit of thought put into it.
• 1:11:47
  What we show is really interesting.
• 1:11:48
  I think there's a bit more money there as well.
• 1:11:52
  It ends sooner than I planned, but even like Knights of God
• 1:11:55
  from 87, which is full of Doctor Who, you know Troutons in it.
• 1:12:01
  He's not broadcast laugh he's dead got Thomas is in it.
• 1:12:06
  John Woodville's in it. There's the directory that
• 1:12:09
  adopts who is one I've forgotten who is really fascinating use of
• 1:12:13
  Arthur and legends. And so really the interesting
• 1:12:15
  stuff is being done on ITV and Doctor Who is is trying and then
• 1:12:21
  when he actually gets it right really no one's watching it.
• 1:12:26
  And and I think a lot of the blame for that is here in 21.
• 1:12:30
  Now that is almost a perfect segue into introducing the story
• 1:12:36
  we're going to talk about next time, getting it right when
• 1:12:39
  nobody's watching and just as the chop comes down And that is
• 1:12:43
  the very last Doctor Who story ever brought up.
• 1:12:46
  Sorry, made I think. Thank you very much.
• 1:12:50
  Filmed is the word I'm looking for.
• 1:12:52
  Where we going next? Gabriel Chase In what?
• 1:12:56
  18881889 And the superlative. Most like possibly the greatest
• 1:13:01
  Doctor Who story of the 1980s. I it's amazing and I'll fight
• 1:13:06
  anyone online who disagrees me and and and I didn't see the
• 1:13:09
  second episode of that for 10 years because I was in hospital.
• 1:13:12
  It was broadcast and I understood that's the story
• 1:13:15
  straight off. So anyway, because you can't
• 1:13:17
  run, say, the first time, you're wrong.
• 1:13:19
  As you'll discover when we record it, it's wonderful that
• 1:13:22
  we've we've you've gone with a story, You read that line, and
• 1:13:25
  now we're going to go in the other direction to a story you
• 1:13:27
  really love. You only get any objections from
• 1:13:29
  me because that's my favorite McCoy.
• 1:13:31
  It's probably in my top three of the 80s.
• 1:13:34
  I think it's extraordinary script.
• 1:13:36
  And given what you've managed to shake out, A Resurrection of the
• 1:13:39
  Daleks, I dread to think what you're going to pull out of
• 1:13:42
  Ghost Light with all those literary references in there.
• 1:13:46
  I think we're going to have a lot of fun.
• 1:13:48
  Good. Well, it just leads me to say
• 1:13:51
  thank you so much. I this is, I knew this was going
• 1:13:53
  to be great, but you have been phenomenal and I'm just going to
• 1:13:58
  say until next time. You're welcome, Joe.
• 1:14:00
  I enjoyed it a great deal and I I look forward to Ghost Flight.
• 1:14:04
  So thanks a lot. Bring it on.