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201: Navigating Uncertainty: Leadership Strategies for Tough Times · Customer Service Revolution | Customer Experience & Employee Experience for Business Leaders

• 1:03
  Welcome, Revolutionaries, to another episode of the Customer Service Revolution Podcast with John DiJulius.
• 1:11
  I'm Denise Thompson, co-hosting with John today.
• 1:15
  And John, you look like you just got back from spring training.
• 1:18
  Well, more importantly, tomorrow when we're recording this is opening day.
• 1:23
  Yeah, so it's in Kansas City.
• 1:28
  okay, I guess you're not.
• 1:29
  Are you going to Cleveland's opening day?
• 1:31
  No, we have CXEA and as much as I love baseball, I hate the cold.
• 1:36
  So I don't like watching baseball outside if it's cold.
• 1:40
  for those listeners that don't know, yeah, I love baseball.
• 1:43
  Played in college, still play.
• 1:46
  I say I play baseball, high ball, not softball.
• 1:49
  And I consult on the side.
• 1:51
  I'm a baseball player, consults on the side.
• 1:53
  really pumped that it's opening day and, you know, get excited.
• 1:58
  How do you think the Guardians chances are this year?
• 2:01
  I said they won't win 80 games when people are shocked and what I mean by that is they'll either win 90 plus or below 80.
• 2:09
  So if they're around 500 by midseason then they'll trade away all their good players and ramp up for next year with prospects.
• 2:18
  So I actually think they'll win 91 games, which is a good thing.
• 2:21
  I think so too.
• 2:22
  I think they've got a good team they're putting together.
• 2:24
  How did they look in spring training?
• 2:26
  Good, good.
• 2:27
  It was fun to go watch them.
• 2:29
  And you have a big trip coming up.
• 2:31
  I do.
• 2:33
  Scotland and Ireland.
• 2:34
  When do you leave?
• 2:36
  This week?
• 2:37
  yeah, I leave this week and I'm gone for just over a week.
• 2:40
  That's not long enough for those trips.
• 2:45
  And you've never been to either?
• 2:47
  I've been to Ireland, but not Scotland.
• 2:49
  you find it as friendly as I did?
• 2:51
  And I heard Scotland is as friendly, if not friendlier.
• 2:55
  I've never been to Scotland, but when I went to Ireland, mean, felt from customs was like, couldn't have been nicer.
• 3:02
  Everyone was nice.
• 3:04
  Like, you know, they're all drunk, but could not be more nice people.
• 3:08
  Like I remember while going into one store, I was looking for a rugby Ireland sweatshirt.
• 3:13
  And the woman goes, oh, and she takes me outside of the store.
• 3:16
  This is in Dublin.
• 3:17
  And she walks me down a block and shows me where the store is that sells it.
• 3:25
  I'm like, is this like a sister store?
• 3:27
  And she's like, no.
• 3:27
  I couldn't believe.
• 3:29
  But everyone, just felt like people from Ireland, and I heard Scotland's the same, are just so friendly.
• 3:35
  Did she know who you were?
• 3:36
  Was she trying to impress the CX authority?
• 3:41
  Yeah, I've heard that too.
• 3:42
  And I've heard Scotland, particularly Glasgow, is supposed to be extremely friendly.
• 3:46
  So.
• 3:47
  I'll report.
• 3:49
  they drink the whiskey.
• 3:50
  Yeah, that's a.
• 3:52
  that what you're popular for?
• 3:53
  Well, yes.
• 3:54
  Are you gonna when in Rome?
• 3:55
  Are you gonna?
• 3:56
  Well, yeah, we did sign up for a tasting.
• 3:59
  And you guys drink beer too?
• 4:01
  That's what you have to drink in Ireland.
• 4:02
  yeah, you kind of have to have Guinness when you're in Ireland, don't you?
• 4:05
  pubs with music.
• 4:07
  Those are so cool.
• 4:08
  Yeah, I love that.
• 4:09
  I love that atmosphere.
• 4:10
  I like Europe in general.
• 4:12
  Well, good.
• 4:12
  I think we'll have to do a podcast while you're there at a pub.
• 4:15
  at a pub.
• 4:16
  That would be fun.
• 4:17
  All right.
• 4:18
  All right, so back to reality here and things that are going on here in the states.
• 4:24
  People are talking about recession.
• 4:26
  People are talking about the economy concerned that a recession may be coming.
• 4:31
  What do you have for our listeners to help recession proof their businesses?
• 4:37
  Yeah, well, you know, I think we should always be paranoid and prepared because, you know, the famous quote, the experts have predicted the last, 20 out of nine, I don't know, but
• 4:51
  no one knows, no one knows.
• 4:52
  And I think we've been in the longest economic boom since 2010.
• 4:58
  which causes businesses, entrepreneurs, leaders to get sloppy when, you know, it's just the economic is, you know, economy is booming and your industry might be booming and
• 5:09
  you're during growth.
• 5:10
  I might be one of the few entrepreneurs that prefers a recession.
• 5:19
  I don't know if I prefer it, but I don't mind it.
• 5:22
  And none of my businesses
• 5:24
  do better as a result.
• 5:25
  There's some businesses that do better during recessionary times.
• 5:28
  Ours don't.
• 5:28
  But what I like about it is it weeds out the competition.
• 5:33
  You know, all the competitors who aren't doing it well, you know, a weak economy exposes bad businesses, bad businesses models.
• 5:43
  And so I just think, you know,
• 5:45
  I think what we need to do and what we need to talk about is what we should be doing anyway.
• 5:50
  But there's definitely benefits to businesses during recessionary times.
• 5:55
  Okay, that's a tough pill to swallow.
• 5:58
  So what kind of opportunities are there in the recession times?
• 6:02
  Well, first off, you know, whether it's due to the economic boom of the last, you know, 14 years, or you're in a fast growth business, nothing will ruin a company's customer
• 6:14
  experience, passive and rapid growth.
• 6:15
  We've all been there.
• 6:17
  Where back in the early days when we were, you know, just getting it right, we needed to hire someone, we interviewed 25 people to find that one.
• 6:25
  And we were obsessive.
• 6:27
  Well, now when you need 25 or 250 employees because you're growing so fast, you know, you're hiring anyone you can.
• 6:38
  And you're looking the opposite way on people that you should be getting rid of because you need 25 or 250 more.
• 6:47
  you know, the growth, you're just trying to capitalize on growth.
• 6:51
  So you really start compromising.
• 6:54
  And you know, listen, I want growth, you know, in my companies.
• 6:57
  Every entrepreneur wants growth, but you do realize how many growing pains you get with it, right?
• 7:05
  And all of a sudden you wake up and it's not the soul of the company that you started
• 7:10
  kind of coyote ugly as a leader where you wake up one day and you're like, where did all these people come from?
• 7:17
  How did they get hired?
• 7:19
  You know, and it comes back to yourself, but we just, you know, struggle.
• 7:24
  know, growth is great, it's intoxicating, but that one thing I'd rather lose the sales than the reputation.
• 7:32
  And that's so much easier to say, but if we just...
• 7:37
  hire anyone to capitalize on the opportunities of new business.
• 7:41
  We're exposing that new business or existing business to less than.
• 7:46
  And they're gonna not do business with us again and they're gonna do brand terrorism.
• 7:49
  So, you know, it's really hard.
• 7:51
  And as you know, we get a lot of companies that have exploded in growth that hire us.
• 7:58
  because they wake up and their customer and their employee experience isn't what it used to be.
• 8:02
  So they gotta get back to what made them unique.
• 8:05
  And you see it all the time.
• 8:07
  So you've worked with lot of companies that have had this issue and you yourself have grown multiple companies.
• 8:14
  What's the best advice for someone who wants to scale their business, wants to grow it and not go through those pains?
• 8:22
  It's hard, so we're probably gonna talk about two different things.
• 8:25
  The benefits of a recession, which that question kinda isn't yet, is trying to maintain the growth.
• 8:32
  Yeah, the benefits of growing and as you get bigger is now, hopefully your senior leadership team isn't wearing all the hats.
• 8:40
  You've been there where you've been the marketing person, the HR person, the, you know.
• 8:45
  jumping in on the phones and all the other things.
• 8:47
  And the entrepreneur does that.
• 8:49
  The drawback, obviously with that is there's a lot of things that hats that we're wearing that we shouldn't be, we're not good at.
• 8:57
  And worse, the hats that we should be is getting diluted of time because we have to, you we're accountant and, you know, all those things.
• 9:07
  So as you get bigger, you can, you know.
• 9:09
  hire those things, outsource them or hire people who are dedicated to that.
• 9:13
  But it's the front line, it's fast tracking employees because of the growth.
• 9:18
  It's again hiring just anyone to fill positions of turnover or the growth.
• 9:26
  So trying to have that training and recruitment experience and not compromise on that.
• 9:33
  during your fast growth.
• 9:34
  Other way, mean, lot of great companies, right, from Kodak, Blackberry, Circuit City, Blockbuster, aren't around anymore, you know, and they all went through that.
• 9:46
  that's more of, you know, and we have a white paper, Denise, if you can share it with them, the six things, on what...
• 9:53
  you do to avoid ruining your experience during rapid growth, recession proofing.
• 10:00
  We should be doing those things anyway, right?
• 10:02
  Yeah, and I will add that to the show notes.
• 10:04
  All right, so if we jump back to recession proofing, how does it differ to recession proof your business versus growing it?
• 10:15
  you know the old quote, a crisis, a recession is a terrible thing to waste, right?
• 10:20
  And so, you know, managing uncertainties and finding the hidden opportunities.
• 10:26
  And there's hidden opportunities and, you know, having gone through it ourselves, you know, several times, you know, in our businesses, it sucks.
• 10:34
  But then you realize, you know, back in, I think, wait,
• 10:38
  when we were more of a keynote company and when that recession hit, people stopped putting on conferences or maybe they stopped bringing in outside speakers and did more internal
• 10:54
  speakers.
• 10:55
  And we were slowly getting there, but that forced us to evolve into a consulting, a customer service consulting company, which
• 11:06
  You know, that's probably been our biggest revenue stream since then.
• 11:11
  But I don't know if 08 would have forced us, you know, we would have done it if we didn't go through the Great Recession or whatever that was called in 08.
• 11:20
  So there's hidden opportunities, you get to reinvent yourself.
• 11:24
  You know, when things are going good, you know, we take our eyes off the ball.
• 11:29
  I think we gotta work harder and success has that.
• 11:33
  Create new revenue streams.
• 11:35
  There's a lot of things that, I know every company has it, they know that's probably the future, but they just don't have time.
• 11:43
  So something like this forces us, it forces you to create those revenue streams.
• 11:49
  You also get a,
• 11:51
  an opportunity to reinvent yourself with your staff.
• 11:53
  During great times, that means there's other, even a turkey can fly in a tornado, right?
• 11:59
  And what that means is, know, shitty companies that compete with us look, you know, they're busy.
• 12:06
  But when their tornado stops, the economy stops, you know, there's a lot of turkeys that fall.
• 12:12
  So, you know, a recession's like a business enema.
• 12:15
  But what happens is during good economic times, it becomes an employee market and they can get a job anywhere, which is good for them, absolutely good for them.
• 12:26
  But you might have to pay a little bit more for a position that maybe is only worth $15, $18 an hour.
• 12:36
  Now you can pay $22 or $20 because everyone's doing well and everyone's recruiting from each other.
• 12:42
  When things get tough and employees get scared because their spouse is getting laid off and their friends are, you know, they're hearing about all the cuts, you could go in there
• 12:53
  and you get their buy-in on things that they never would have, to do things differently.
• 12:58
  You know, I remember in 08, 09 in the salon business, we brought everyone together.
• 13:07
  and they probably thought we were gonna make some cuts.
• 13:10
  And we said, no, no, everyone's job is safe.
• 13:13
  As long as we extend our hours, you know, so our busiest times in the salon were evenings and weekends.
• 13:19
  You know, and so we said we want everyone to pick up an hour, you know, and work till nine instead of eight.
• 13:25
  And then weekends, you know, in the salon industry, like most retail, you could double our size and be booked.
• 13:31
  Like we just, that was when the demand was.
• 13:34
  Monday through Friday, our slower days, we're open from eight to eight, 12 hours.
• 13:40
  Our busiest peak day is Saturday, we're open nine to five.
• 13:45
  That made no sense, right?
• 13:47
  Why aren't we taking advantage of, you know, when the fish are biting?
• 13:51
  And so back then in 08, you said we're gonna open from seven to seven on Saturday, do split shifts.
• 13:57
  all the employees were fine with that.
• 13:59
  Again, they thought they were maybe getting laid off or gonna ask to take a pay cut or whatever it was.
• 14:04
  Now had we introduced that a year earlier or three years later, we probably would have had staff walk out because things were so good.
• 14:14
  So it really gives you an opportunity to focus on what you should have been focusing on and what you're getting sloppy at.
• 14:22
  There's also less competition.
• 14:23
  Right?
• 14:24
  So there's more market share.
• 14:26
  Again, a recession's like a business enema.
• 14:28
  We will lose competitors, which is great.
• 14:31
  We have an opportunity of tackling.
• 14:33
  And it's usually the price cutters and the people were discounting, and that was their only gain.
• 14:38
  So you bring up a few different things.
• 14:40
  And one of them is when it is an employee market and you have to spend more for someone, it's also often the times when companies can't afford to spend more on someone, right?
• 14:51
  And you don't have.
• 14:52
  the economy, well, no one, you know, you never wanna, you you wanna pay people fairly.
• 14:57
  You don't wanna pay them above market.
• 14:59
  But in those situations, that means in most cases, the economy is doing really well.
• 15:04
  So your business is probably doing really well.
• 15:07
  But that might be a mirage.
• 15:09
  And you talked also about reinventing yourself.
• 15:12
  Yeah, I mean, like I said, the DiJulius group reinvented itself back in 08 from primarily a keynote company to a consulting company.
• 15:21
  Now we have the academies and we have live stream workshops.
• 15:25
  So we had to create different revenue streams that weren't dependent on just a booming economy.
• 15:33
  All right, John, I want to back it up to when you talked about getting staff buy-in.
• 15:38
  So this is a time when staff are nervous, right?
• 15:41
  How do you provide certainty to your staff in times like this?
• 15:45
  Yeah, so, so listen, staff is, you know, seeing the news, whether it's on social media, wherever they get their news from.
• 15:55
  And, you know, all media leads with doom and gloom.
• 16:00
  And they're seeing that, you know, all these major companies are laying off or going out of business.
• 16:06
  We've had a slew of them, of businesses that filed bankruptcy in the last eight months and
• 16:12
  you know, we may come back and say we're already in a recession.
• 16:15
  so things are only gonna get worse from a news standpoint.
• 16:19
  They're also hearing family members and friends talk about it and that they're gonna know multiple people that got laid off from their jobs.
• 16:28
  So they're gonna be really nervous and they're gonna be really nervous about their job and if they should, you know, start doing anything.
• 16:36
  And so,
• 16:36
  I think it's you got to over communicate as a leader and you got to put them in the certainty business and tell them it's going to be hard, be realistic, know, don't over
• 16:47
  promise, but say, listen, we can do this, but here's where it's going to take.
• 16:51
  And that's where you can get a little leverage with the staff to do things that they should have been doing or things that the company should have been doing.
• 16:59
  when it becomes an employee market, maybe you can't ask them to do certain things if you're losing them.
• 17:06
  But I think it's time to really revisit the core values and the missions and the why, why we started this company, what makes us different, what is gonna get us through this.
• 17:16
  And I think you have to have a clear, definitive goal line of what that's gonna look.
• 17:20
  Now you don't know if and when the economy is gonna turn.
• 17:23
  But it is always, always, always a short-term thing.
• 17:27
  Make sure they see the positives.
• 17:30
  It's really a great time to get them, know, why people hire us, is to get them to believe in the customer experience.
• 17:38
  Because now more than ever, we better be doing the customer experience, you know, because customers, know, consumers, clients, guests.
• 17:46
  They're going to be trading down in a bunch of places.
• 17:49
  In order to keep the one or two things that's really important to them So it depends on what side of that list you want to be on Do you want to be traded down for so they can
• 17:59
  still?
• 18:00
  You know play golf go to the spa or you know So so it's really a great time to get people to to dial in their customer experience Leaders better be dialing in the employee
• 18:12
  experience, but I just you can't
• 18:14
  over communicate and be clear and create a definable finish line.
• 18:21
  What do we have to do collectively and be there?
• 18:26
  And then maybe picture six months out or a year out and say, you
• 18:31
  let's pick the best restaurant in the city that we're gonna go out and celebrate that we crushed this recession as a team.
• 18:38
  So, you I think those are all really, really important things.
• 18:42
  Now is not the time to be silent.
• 18:44
  And no employee will ever say, God, my boss drove me crazy with how much he or she communicated.
• 18:50
  You've managed.
• 18:51
  in down times you manage in good times.
• 18:53
  What have you found that works the best for you on both sides of the fence as an employee and as someone who runs companies?
• 19:01
  I think being realistic is important, as you mentioned.
• 19:03
  And I think overall, we've been really good at being transparent in good times and bad with our teams.
• 19:10
  And that is so important.
• 19:12
  They need to know what the real picture is, what to expect, how long it's, you we think it's going to last, what the pain is going to be.
• 19:23
  I talk about with during good times, employees just think that you're making billions.
• 19:26
  Whether you are or you're not, that is gonna be the, so that's why you have their attention and empathy during hard times.
• 19:34
  They are scared themselves.
• 19:36
  But they will hear rumors.
• 19:39
  We just did a focus group.
• 19:41
  last week for one of our salons that I wanted to attend and they heard rumors, you know, a year ago that, or it might have been two years ago that, you know, we were going out of
• 19:51
  business.
• 19:52
  That was never been the case, but people talk and you gotta make sure that, you know, I don't know, luckily it didn't spiral, but I never heard, you know, I mean, it was the
• 20:01
  first time I ever heard of that rumor.
• 20:03
  And was the farthest thing from the truth, dope.
• 20:05
  So now's not the time to assume.
• 20:08
  Your employees know.
• 20:09
  Tell them, be specific.
• 20:11
  We can get through this if we together do A, B, C, and D.
• 20:16
  Another really good thing that I have learned from other great leaders is you create three columns.
• 20:23
  One is what you need to stop doing.
• 20:25
  that just isn't the best interest of your time.
• 20:27
  Eliminate, do less, better.
• 20:29
  What is something that we do need to attack right now that is gonna, in the next six or 12 months, is gonna make us so much better?
• 20:38
  And then what may be something that we can't do now but is in the future.
• 20:43
  But all three are really important, especially stop doing.
• 20:46
  And you know, it's like personally and professionally, like when you go through it personally and you realize that you have 27 subscriptions to shit that you don't use.
• 20:55
  Same thing in business.
• 20:57
  Why do we have this and this and why are we paying for this and you know, all these, you know, things that, you know, you start really getting to what's important.
• 21:05
  But also, you know, looking at each other's time and saying, you know, know, asking a leader to break down what they spend time on.
• 21:13
  and you find out the leader's spending 10, 15 % on something, and you're like, wow, that is so not important.
• 21:18
  That either never should do it or not right now.
• 21:21
  And really being more efficient and productive.
• 21:24
  so something else that I have found has always been helpful too, is having attainable goals during these times for the team to work on and to work on together.
• 21:33
  So there's nothing better than having team camaraderie around anything.
• 21:38
  But if it's something they're working on together and they, you know, it fuels them and keeps them together at a time when one could be disappearing and you hear a rumor and
• 21:47
  another goes, you know, it.
• 21:49
  It could be frightening times for them, but people don't want to leave a team.
• 21:54
  Yeah, and I think, listen, you may not be able to take them to that five-star resort this year.
• 22:00
  Maybe you're not handing out the big cash bonuses you do annually, but now's not the time to cut back on those team things.
• 22:09
  That might be a happy hour.
• 22:11
  That might be potluck, something that...
• 22:14
  we talk about in the employee experience revolution book is have a chief fun officer, a CFO.
• 22:21
  And so in this focus group last week at the salon, and I think a lot of companies are guilty of this, during the pandemic, we stopped everything.
• 22:30
  And then, you know, as the world came back and, you know, work from home became flexible work where people are coming in and stuff.
• 22:40
  A lot of companies, ours included, never went back to team outings and all those social things, going to Topgolf, going to the Guardians game, going to a happy hour, know,
• 22:53
  whatever that may look like, a pickleball or a cornhole or the summer party.
• 22:58
  And so, you know, yes, you can't be foolish and be spending the, you know, $100,000 on, you know, maybe something you've done in the past.
• 23:08
  Now's not the time.
• 23:09
  But you gotta have those little things for exactly what you pointed out, the camaraderie.
• 23:14
  And you gotta, as a leader, show your face and show confidence that this is our finest hour.
• 23:20
  We were built for this.
• 23:21
  And if you give them that confidence, they will have that confidence.
• 23:25
  And I can't tell you enough, I mean, you get it yourself, what you hear when you go out.
• 23:30
  with friends and stuff.
• 23:31
  It might be about your business, it might be about every business.
• 23:34
  I heard your industry, I heard, you know, everyone is gonna, you know, it's only gonna get worse.
• 23:39
  You can't feed that.
• 23:41
  And so, you know, I think another best practice is teaching employees how to avoid doom-scrolling and the things that can really, you know, set them, you know, into a
• 23:51
  spiral.
• 23:51
  And we gotta do it ourselves.
• 23:53
  Yeah, having good news in the huddles, I've always thought makes a difference to starting things off with good news because despite anything that's going on anytime, there's always
• 24:03
  a piece of good news and focusing on those.
• 24:06
  and listen, right or wrong, it also gives you permission to lay off people that aren't right fit.
• 24:16
  Now laying off people that are great or good because you have to, they might be the lowest, that sucks.
• 24:23
  And that is every entrepreneur and every leader's worst, worst day of their career.
• 24:28
  But,
• 24:29
  Hopefully you can start off with and avoid that by letting your poor performers go, which also sends a good message.
• 24:37
  Rock stars don't want to work with poor performers.
• 24:39
  So true, so true.
• 24:41
  I think you've given us a lot of great tips to recession-proof businesses.
• 24:46
  And to get people through these times, start preparing now for whatever might lay ahead.
• 24:51
  And listen, one thing that should be going down is your marketing budget.
• 24:55
  Your experience is your marketing.
• 24:57
  And if you're providing a great employee experience and customer experience, you don't have to be out there advertising to replace the ones you're not keeping.
• 25:05
  Great point.
• 25:06
  Thanks, John.
• 25:07
  Thank you, Denise, and have a wonderful trip.
• 25:09
  can't wait to hear about it.
• 25:11
  Thanks so much.