Latest / Stuff Mom Never Told You / SMNTY Interviews: Holly And Maria

Transcript

SMNTY Interviews: Holly And Maria · Stuff Mom Never Told You

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha. Welcome to stuff I've
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: never told you protection of ByHeart Radio. And today we
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: have another interview for you, and it is with two
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: people that we love, who we know, who we got
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: to see recently at a book launch, and we're really
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: really excited to share this interview with you, so let's
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: get into it.
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: Today.
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: We are so excited to be joined by friends of
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: the show, friends in real life, Holly and Maria, who
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: have done so many amazing things, including writing a book
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: that we're going to talk about. Can you both introduce
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: yourselves to your audience, to your audience.
• 0:53
  Speaker 3: Our audience, to the audience.
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: You go first, Maria, My name is Maria TREMARKI and
• 0:58
  Speaker 4: I met Holly about a twenty million years ago and
• 1:03
  Speaker 4: we were writing and editing together. We came back together
• 1:06
  Speaker 4: about five years ago to do the podcast Criminalia, and
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: part of that podcast meant that recently we have written
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: a book.
• 1:14
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So I am Holly Frye. I co host Criminalia
• 1:20
  Speaker 5: with Maria and also stuff you missed in history class
• 1:24
  Speaker 5: and I really like drinks. So I pulled the sweetest
• 1:30
  Speaker 5: scam in the world and figured out a way to
• 1:32
  Speaker 5: make drinking part of my job because Criminalia has a
• 1:36
  Speaker 5: drink segment and now it has a cocktail book.
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: Amazing. I didn't think we'd be here, but here we are.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: It really is amazing. There are so many recipes in here,
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: and there's both cocktail and mocktail versions. It's just an
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: astounding amount of research.
• 1:55
  Speaker 4: Right, a lot of cocktails and marktails, a lot of stories.
• 1:59
  Speaker 4: I know we both did a ton of research for
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: both of those things.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, along coming.
• 2:05
  Speaker 5: Yeah, we realized in our third season, which was Mocktail Forward,
• 2:09
  Speaker 5: because we were talking about impostors, we had a number
• 2:11
  Speaker 5: of people tell us like I love the mocktails, I'm
• 2:14
  Speaker 5: actually sober, or I just don't like to drink. Could
• 2:17
  Speaker 5: you do this all the time? And after that we've
• 2:19
  Speaker 5: had them every season, So the book offered a good
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: opportunity to go back to those earlier seasons and reconfigure
• 2:27
  Speaker 5: those so that they also had a mocktail with them,
• 2:29
  Speaker 5: which was fun.
• 2:30
  Speaker 6: So just to kind of start at the beginning, how
• 2:33
  Speaker 6: did this podcast now book all of the things come about?
• 2:37
  Speaker 6: Because this is an intriguing topic.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: This began with Holly, so I'll let her start the story.
• 2:45
  Speaker 5: Yeah, So Criminalia is part of the Shondaland slate of podcasts,
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: which I was originally executive producing that slate and Ours
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: and Boss Boss Connell Burn had brought me the story
• 2:59
  Speaker 5: of Julie Tafana, which I had already heard about, and
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: he said, is this a podcast? And she was a
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: woman poisoner of ancient Rome, and I was like, no,
• 3:13
  Speaker 5: but it's the kernel of one like she her story
• 3:17
  Speaker 5: is not substantial enough and there's not enough substantive research
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: material to make that into a whole show on its own.
• 3:25
  Speaker 5: But there's something here about this idea of women who
• 3:29
  Speaker 5: are killers and women who are poisoners and doing something
• 3:33
  Speaker 5: true crimey that's not contemporary, that has a little more
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: distance and feels a little less voyeuristic. So that's where
• 3:42
  Speaker 5: it all started. And then I immediately was like, hey,
• 3:46
  Speaker 5: I'm already writing a show that being history class and
• 3:50
  Speaker 5: I was like, I don't think I can also write
• 3:53
  Speaker 5: this show. So that I know who can, And Mariana
• 3:57
  Speaker 5: is the one and only person I reached out to you.
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: She got a.
• 4:01
  Speaker 5: Flurry of very aggressive texts one day.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't call them aggressive, but I would call them
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: a flurry.
• 4:08
  Speaker 3: Yes, it was just very intense.
• 4:12
  Speaker 5: It was like, Hey, I'm starting a show and I
• 4:14
  Speaker 5: would like you to write it, and also here's what
• 4:15
  Speaker 5: it's about, and also here's what it would involve, and
• 4:17
  Speaker 5: here's what So uh, text me back after you get
• 4:20
  Speaker 5: these thirty seven different things about what I'm thinking.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: And imagine imagine me though, I'm on an airplane when
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: all of these are coming in and I am deplaning,
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: when they're all coming to my phone, and.
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not trying to read all of these, I'm like,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: what is is Holly? Okay, like Holly, dial nine one one,
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: this is what is happening.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: But I had I had never I have never been
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: in the podcast world before. I'd never written anything for
• 4:51
  Speaker 4: podcasts and co hosted, hosted any any any of the
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: above things for a podcast. And I was immediately intrigued
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: by that and the fact that it was historical true crime,
• 5:04
  Speaker 4: that it wasn't going to be you know, ten years
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: ago this thing happened, and you know, the family is
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: still dealing with it and it has emotion about it,
• 5:12
  Speaker 4: and people are you know, we've both talked about how
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: we never wanted a scenario where someone's going to show
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: up at somebody's house and it's because of that particular
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: crime story. So working in the historical true crime field
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: has been really interesting because you see parts of the
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: world through a very different eye. Like Pirate season in
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: particular was like that for me, like you really you know?
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: And they would and it's it's funny. Some seasons will
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: pop up in other seasons too, which I always really enjoy,
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: Like Arsenic became a character for us in our first
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: Ladies Who Poisoned season, But now when it pops up,
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: I always have and it sounds terrible to say, but
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: I always have kind of a bit of affection for
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: when I see Arsenic poison like murder by Arsenic because
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: it was my very first season of Criminale some good thought.
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: You're like, oh, I know you very well.
• 6:08
  Speaker 5: I was joking the other day because it came up
• 6:10
  Speaker 5: and I was like, hello, Arsenic.
• 6:13
  Speaker 7: We did.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: We did, actually just have a script for an episode
• 6:16
  Speaker 4: where Arsenic was the method of death. And I I
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: want to say that I chose it because of the story,
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: but I know that part of me also chose it
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: because the story included Arsenic.
• 6:29
  Speaker 5: Maria's Arsenic bias is really driving the bus.
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: It is it is you just you just wait and see,
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: like it's going to come up in everything from now on.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: I will find it. I'll be like ours, surely there
• 6:39
  Speaker 4: was arsenic here somewhere.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: We'll find it.
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: I will track it down and I will write an
• 6:45
  Speaker 4: episode about it.
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: That's funny. I love that.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Well.
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: You know, we have talked a lot about women in
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: true crime on this show, and I think it's really
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: interesting to hear you both being really careful with it
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: and having these different seasons where some seasons are more
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: difficult than others, like maybe taking more of a toll,
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: like the Art Height season. You Art Height season you've
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: talked about it was really fun. Yeah, But then you're
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: doing you're working on cold cases, right like, and that
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: one's much more difficult.
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: So cold cases is hard.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Cold cases is hard.
• 7:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Partners in Crime turned out to be much harder
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: than I thought it was going to be as well.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: That was our previous.
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: Season, probably the most violent season.
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: Yes, that's why I think I think so too.
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: There was resolution, which is always it's always nice to
• 7:39
  Speaker 4: have resolution in these which we aren't getting in cold cases.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: You know you're getting these really. We were just recording one.
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: This week where there's a very violent murder that happens,
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: and then dot dot dot.
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 7:54
  Speaker 4: But what's interesting about the seasons is they all sort
• 7:57
  Speaker 4: of focus a little bit differently, Like some of a
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: really kind of fun like impostors. There were people who
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: didn't you know, they just made people up. They weren't
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: they weren't pretending to be people who existed. Most of
• 8:08
  Speaker 4: the time, you know, they're just kind of in it
• 8:10
  Speaker 4: for the rush. But then you have some seasons where
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: you're like, wow, this is this is really like you
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: get to the end and right before the cocktail, you're
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: thinking to yourself, this was a really difficult story to tell,
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: and I need a second to just take a breath,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: and then then we'll talk about cocktails and mocktails to
• 8:27
  Speaker 4: lighten it up a little bit. But yeah, we still
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: talk about doing a second season of art Heists, which
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: I think would be great because usually nobody dies, you know,
• 8:37
  Speaker 4: they're pretty fun to yeah, yeah, and sometimes you get
• 8:41
  Speaker 4: like sometimes you get people where you're like you tried
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: it that way, like you thought that was going to work.
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: You just put it in your pocket and laughed, like.
• 8:51
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, there there are some some rough ones. Our
• 8:55
  Speaker 5: Witchcraft season was someone very difficult because a lot of
• 8:59
  Speaker 5: it is very steeped obviously in misogyny and like people
• 9:03
  Speaker 5: having a bias to just presume anyone that didn't live
• 9:06
  Speaker 5: the way they did must be inherently evil. And so
• 9:10
  Speaker 5: there was a lot of I'm using the air quotes's
• 9:13
  Speaker 5: evidence that was really more like just oh, you're just eccentric,
• 9:18
  Speaker 5: or you're or you wronged me once, so I'm going
• 9:22
  Speaker 5: to accuse you of this thing, and you will die
• 9:24
  Speaker 5: because you pissed me off once, like, which.
• 9:27
  Speaker 4: Is which came up a lot, and it was that
• 9:29
  Speaker 4: was really disturbing season.
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: You know, it was very difficult.
• 9:34
  Speaker 4: We combined it with alchemy, and for the most part
• 9:39
  Speaker 4: what we you know, like if you just looked at
• 9:41
  Speaker 4: at at the surface of it, the female witches were
• 9:45
  Speaker 4: all burned alive, and the alchemists just went on to
• 9:50
  Speaker 4: do something else maybe or somebody didn't really read there exactly,
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: maybe nobody read their their journal paper that they put
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: out that year, like I I you know, it was
• 9:58
  Speaker 4: such a just such a stark difference between the two
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: and you know, and that the consideration of dark arts
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: was still for both of them, even though they were
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: treated so differently.
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm interested in how because the book you had
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: to choose, you had to really curate on this, like
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: the stories and the cocktails, and it's fantastic. We got
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: to go to your to a reading that you all
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: did and there was.
• 10:29
  Speaker 7: There.
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: It was lovely.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: It was like halloweenish time and it was kind of
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: a halloweenish cock It was so nice.
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: That was I think sort of the unofficial book launch. Yeah,
• 10:41
  Speaker 2: we had. It was a nice time. We had a
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: cider drink that we were.
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: Doing pumpkin apple cocktails exactly.
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: Which, by the way, I have created one of the
• 10:52
  Speaker 6: cocktails with the I don't know why I was showing
• 10:54
  Speaker 6: off the cup like you can stay the ingredients, but yes,
• 10:56
  Speaker 6: I did create one from the.
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: Cop I had to get a fancy cup.
• 11:02
  Speaker 6: But yeah, so I did the Galen's gulp. I told
• 11:05
  Speaker 6: Holly because I was like, I have these ingredients. Yeah,
• 11:08
  Speaker 6: because I was like, oh no, but I for research
• 11:12
  Speaker 6: only quite delicious. But I love that this book happened.
• 11:20
  Speaker 6: How did this book come about? We talked about the podcast,
• 11:23
  Speaker 6: now tell us about the book, which are all the
• 11:24
  Speaker 6: good cocktails the book.
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: Similarly, Maria got a text because I didn't.
• 11:34
  Speaker 5: It was always a little bit of a finger cross
• 11:37
  Speaker 5: in the back of my head, like I churned into
• 11:39
  Speaker 5: a book, but I wasn't sure we did. From the
• 11:44
  Speaker 5: jump get a lot of reach outs from listeners that
• 11:48
  Speaker 5: were like, are you gonna put this in some sort
• 11:50
  Speaker 5: of published thing, or are you gonna put this online?
• 11:53
  Speaker 5: Or so I started to put together a book proposal
• 11:57
  Speaker 5: and was talking to people on our iHeart end of
• 12:01
  Speaker 5: things and saying like, hey, you know, can we maybe
• 12:04
  Speaker 5: run this up the chain and pitch it places? And
• 12:07
  Speaker 5: they were like yes. And at that point I was like, Maria,
• 12:11
  Speaker 5: I didn't want to tell you in case it just
• 12:16
  Speaker 5: you know, sputtered out. But we're working on a book pitch,
• 12:19
  Speaker 5: so now is the time that I need to hand
• 12:21
  Speaker 5: some stuff off to you and have you go over
• 12:24
  Speaker 5: it and put your touch on it so that it,
• 12:26
  Speaker 5: you know, maintains our our vibe and whatnot. And we
• 12:30
  Speaker 5: made a bunch of cocktails and took pictures of them
• 12:33
  Speaker 5: and put them in it, and Maria fine tuned the
• 12:35
  Speaker 5: narratives and we sent it out and I'm always a
• 12:40
  Speaker 5: little I'm always a little embarrassed to say that it
• 12:45
  Speaker 5: was very desired, uh. And it actually went to auction,
• 12:50
  Speaker 5: which was cool where a bunch of publishers had to
• 12:53
  Speaker 5: put in bids, which was really surreal. It was very
• 12:57
  Speaker 5: very lucky.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: I feel like, you know, you put a postal out
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: and you're like, well, maybe someone might be interested, and
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: it was it was more than one someone, and it
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: was it was really it was actually really telling that hey,
• 13:10
  Speaker 4: maybe we're we're doing something that is is interesting to others,
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: not just yes.
• 13:16
  Speaker 6: Right, I mean, it's very interesting. It's different. It gives
• 13:19
  Speaker 6: you recipes on top of the fact, you get historical
• 13:23
  Speaker 6: lessons and a beautiful illustrations. Those those pictures of the
• 13:27
  Speaker 6: cocktails are so pretty and all of that. And I
• 13:30
  Speaker 6: know Any started off the question and I didn't let
• 13:32
  Speaker 6: you finish. So how did you come to the point
• 13:35
  Speaker 6: of like picking out, picking and choosing the recipes, picking
• 13:38
  Speaker 6: and choosing the stories, because you got you guys have
• 13:40
  Speaker 6: a lot.
• 13:41
  Speaker 4: I think, well, when I was choosing, I was going
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: through this is The book actually encompasses eight seasons of
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: the podcast, but the episodes are not. It's probably about
• 13:55
  Speaker 4: fifty percent, would you say, about half and half episodes
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: from this show and then new episodes and cocktails and
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: mocktails are the other fifty percent. And so going through
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: eight seasons, that's a lot of seasons to go through.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: But I went through not with them.
• 14:09
  Speaker 4: My first past wasn't with these are stories that I
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: really enjoyed telling. It was these are I was looking
• 14:15
  Speaker 4: at the pair each time, So I was looking at
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: what the cocktail mocktail was plus what the story was,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: and did they both seem really solid to me?
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: Did they both seem like they could stand.
• 14:27
  Speaker 4: Up in a book, And did it also seem like
• 14:30
  Speaker 4: I could take the story and make it, you know,
• 14:33
  Speaker 4: a bit of a more of a postcard than an episode.
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: But that was that was where I first started, was
• 14:41
  Speaker 4: just looking at both, not just narratives, because the cock
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: it's a Killer Cocktails book, and the narratives are those
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: cocktails inspirations. So I want to make sure everybody was
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: very friendly, hand in hand and could stand on their own.
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: And then it becomes a little bit about balance because
• 14:58
  Speaker 5: I had picked out, like, okay, here my favorite cocktails
• 15:01
  Speaker 5: from any given season. But then are we running a
• 15:06
  Speaker 5: little too heavy on clear liquors?
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: Are we.
• 15:11
  Speaker 5: You know, balancing out the types of things? Are too
• 15:13
  Speaker 5: many of these floral cocktails? Because I'll admit, like I
• 15:16
  Speaker 5: love a floral cocktail.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: We both do, so we could fall into that really easy.
• 15:20
  Speaker 5: I also love a deserty cocktail, so we try to
• 15:23
  Speaker 5: not only have those and be repetitive, but also try
• 15:27
  Speaker 5: to make sure that, you know, we have enough ingredient
• 15:29
  Speaker 5: repetition that it feels like a cohesive season where people
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: can make use of anything, specially they've had to buy.
• 15:36
  Speaker 5: That was kind of how we balance that out. And
• 15:38
  Speaker 5: then once we picked news stories, that was always back
• 15:43
  Speaker 5: of mind to me, Okay, what is this what is
• 15:46
  Speaker 5: this chapter now missing in terms of a balance out,
• 15:50
  Speaker 5: what is what is lacking? What would compliment the other
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: things we have so that it does, you know, give
• 15:57
  Speaker 5: some variety but also makes sense together.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: I always have a list of episode ideas that don't
• 16:05
  Speaker 4: make it to a particular season, and so that was
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: my first place of going to when I was like, Okay,
• 16:11
  Speaker 4: we've got.
• 16:12
  Speaker 2: More stories that we've got to find.
• 16:13
  Speaker 4: And there are some people I know I wanted to
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: talk about, and some of them made it.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: And some of them didn't.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: You know, some of them just didn't have a strong
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: enough you know, primary sources or strong enough story. But
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: but we did have a few places where we could begin,
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: which was nice.
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: That I feel so hard the difficulty of finding like
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: primary sources so tricky.
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: Sometimes when we come across things like, you know, this
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: is the first murder ever recorded with the entire court
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: transcripts still available, I'm like.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: What, this is the only document I need. We're good.
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: There's usually that so far away from what the reality is.
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, one of the things we wanted to talk about
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: is you you both have been working together for a
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: long time. Are known each other for a long time,
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: I'll say, And Samantha and I also we struggle with,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: you know, the sources.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: We also wrote a book.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: It was in different circumstances, and we had those concerns.
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: We had these concerns of like, will are our friendship
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: with the and this kind of working.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: So there is a moment in an elevator and Atlanta Georgia.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Looked at Holly.
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: It was after we recorded the audio book, and I
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: looked at Holly and I was like, that day was exhausting,
• 18:01
  Speaker 4: and we actually ended up going back to our respective
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: her house in my room and just both passing out.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: I mean, this is the kind of thing that really
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: tests your friendship. And I was like, I think we're
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: doing pretty good, and she's like, that's what you.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Think, sarcast.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: I love that little story because I.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: Actually, I do believe that we did make it through.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: Okay, you know, like I mean, it was a lot
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: of pressure us back and forth and a lot of
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: just I mean, like I was saying that, there is
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: a lot of pressure, there's a lot of deadline, there's
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: a lot of decisions that need to be made. And
• 18:39
  Speaker 4: I I've always found that Holly and I have been
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: very collaborative through our whole work experience. So when we met,
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: I was a writer at How Stuff Works since she
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: was my editor, and I remember saying from time to
• 18:52
  Speaker 4: time like Holly will edit my articles and I won't
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: necessarily like she can sound exactly like me, which makes
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: our relationship ship also that much better too when it
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: comes to writing the book and putting pieces together or
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: you know, hey, I noticed this about the cocktail intro,
• 19:07
  Speaker 4: or hey I noticed this about the intro to X story,
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: and we were really able to just sort of back
• 19:12
  Speaker 4: and forth. I took care of this for you. I
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: you know, I noticed this for you and I it
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: was it was a question that was on my mind
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: before we started too I mean, this is a very
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: it's a very intimate thing to get into with another writer.
• 19:30
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, does is sound bad if I say it
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: never even occurred to me?
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't sound bad because I think that we have.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: We just kind of went right, like we're just doing this.
• 19:40
  Speaker 5: We're just start of getting it at, going back and forth,
• 19:43
  Speaker 5: and really, like even when we're prepping an episode, right,
• 19:47
  Speaker 5: Maria writes the primary, she hands it up to me.
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I do an edit, pass, I hand it off to her.
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: She does her last edit.
• 19:53
  Speaker 5: But like any editing I'm doing is either I know
• 19:57
  Speaker 5: something about this topic, we should add this in, or
• 20:01
  Speaker 5: just the secondary ear at that point of saying, yeah,
• 20:06
  Speaker 5: you know what, if we only leave it this way,
• 20:08
  Speaker 5: I think a listener might.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: Be confused or it won't be computed.
• 20:10
  Speaker 5: It's never like it. It's always a yes, and do
• 20:16
  Speaker 5: you know what I mean? It's never like this sucks
• 20:18
  Speaker 5: take this out. It's always like, how can we just
• 20:21
  Speaker 5: find tune this? I see what you're doing. You're like
• 20:24
  Speaker 5: ninety nine point nine percent of the way there. But
• 20:26
  Speaker 5: if we just move this phrase to the back of
• 20:27
  Speaker 5: the sentence, it's gonna make it punchier.
• 20:29
  Speaker 4: It's like all writers know that like that is that
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: is just it's critical. It's lovely to have somebody who
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: can go, you know what, I'm going to take your
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: sentence and flip it and now look at it and
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: you go, oh Jesus. I was thinking the same thing
• 20:40
  Speaker 4: the whole time, but I just didn't do it, you know.
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: And so when when we're doing the scripts, it is
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: really helpful to think about things like she'll leave me
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: little comments and you know, did you say it was
• 20:51
  Speaker 4: it this?
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Or was it this? And I'm like, well, I think
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: it was this, you know, and I go, I gause.
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: I go back and forth a little bit, but it's uh,
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: it was at the beginning.
• 21:00
  Speaker 4: It was a little bit harder for me because I'd
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: never written anything for audio, and so I was relying
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: on Holliday to be.
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: Like, listen, is this correct?
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: Like is this the way that that I should be
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: you know, is this a good script sort of template,
• 21:13
  Speaker 4: not not to templatize what the story means, but a
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: way that I should be writing this. And that was
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: very helpful because she has a lot of podcasting experience,
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: and now I'll leave her comments where I'll be like,
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: oh my god, I can't believe that they said blah blah.
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: Blah blah blah, knowing that she's the next edit. You know.
• 21:35
  Speaker 4: But there's one thing actually that is a little bit
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: different in this in the in the episodes is from
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: the very beginning, I don't know and I don't want
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: to know. I've made it very clear, so this is nobody,
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: no surprise to anybody, but I'm always as surprised as
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: a listener when it comes to the cocktail and mocktail
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: segment and I don't know what it's going to be titled.
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: I don't know what the ingredients are going to be.
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: I don't know, and I don't want to. I want
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: it to be I wanted to. I wanted to unfold
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: to me in the same way that faults in the audience.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: And I know Allie's laughing about this, But when you've
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: written the narrative of it, and and you know you
• 22:15
  Speaker 4: know someone very well and she's going to be making
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: the drink that goes with this, you know, I always
• 22:20
  Speaker 4: stop and think to myself, like, this is a really
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: great quote that Holly might find inspirational for her, you know,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: cocktail name or maybe you know, maybe the cocktail itself,
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: and whenever I come across like little sort of oddities,
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: I always make sure they get in there because I
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: want her to have as much creativity as she can
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: from that that story.
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I know nothing.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: About the cocktails. I know anohing.
• 22:43
  Speaker 6: I love this conversation. That's one of the things that
• 22:46
  Speaker 6: Andy I talk about often is about our relationship and
• 22:49
  Speaker 6: being like you see so often when people don't know
• 22:52
  Speaker 6: how to work together and they can fake it, but
• 22:54
  Speaker 6: there's still just something you know and like yeah right yeah,
• 23:00
  Speaker 6: And then also just the level of support that really
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: really makes the show or really really makes a working
• 23:07
  Speaker 6: project so much better, and just out of curiosity.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: When you guys are.
• 23:11
  Speaker 6: Working together and collaborating, does it feel like it's growing
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: your friendship or does it feel like you're having to
• 23:17
  Speaker 6: just do workure This woman dread.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: Thank god she lives three thousand miles away from me.
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: Every week is a wake knuckle up here, I have
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: to get this drink done or not going to be.
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: It's great. It's so easy and so relaxed.
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: It really is.
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: It really is really easy and relax like it's a
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: kind of environment. Holly and I I feel where when
• 23:44
  Speaker 4: we had I'm just gonna use it. I'm going to
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: use one example from our audiobook reading experience again. I
• 23:50
  Speaker 4: had what was turning into kind of a migraine one
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: morning when I woke up at my hotel and I
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: was like, this day is full of French, which I
• 23:59
  Speaker 4: have a hard time I'm with and like, I would
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: rather be like seriously, I'm like I was talking the
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: other day. We had some Welsh names that came up,
• 24:06
  Speaker 4: or town names I think that came up in our script.
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: And I was like, Welsh is real hard, but I'd
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: rather do that than French because I feel like the
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Welsh will forgive me, whereas.
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: That's fair.
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: I'm using this example as just a way of saying,
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: oh my god, I think my head is going to
• 24:23
  Speaker 4: fall off.
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: And Holly was like, well, we'll just we'll just switch
• 24:26
  Speaker 2: this and this and we'll be fine.
• 24:27
  Speaker 4: And I was like, wow, that was really easy, you know,
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: And it's just it's just very easy, you know, Hey,
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: can we switch today?
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: Can we do this? What about this person?
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: Like it's all very accepted and very just.
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: Part of part of what the show and book are
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: well more of the show now these days.
• 24:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I think part of it really is just
• 24:49
  Speaker 5: there are a few components that I'm sure.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: You two also know that go into like keeping.
• 24:54
  Speaker 5: It easy breezy, right, there's a lot of trusts which
• 24:58
  Speaker 5: we started out with on the show because we had
• 25:00
  Speaker 5: worked together before. And I know, like Maria doesn't drop
• 25:05
  Speaker 5: the ball. If she does some really serious going down.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I'm probably be cats and.
• 25:13
  Speaker 5: She would have grace from me anyway. And you know,
• 25:17
  Speaker 5: even when you would think she would, she would have
• 25:19
  Speaker 5: every excuse on earth to drop the ball.
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: She never does.
• 25:21
  Speaker 5: But also like we both know, okay, I had this
• 25:25
  Speaker 5: thing come up. Can we change this around or like
• 25:27
  Speaker 5: never scheduling this week. It's like we're both pretty unflappable.
• 25:30
  Speaker 5: We both recognize likes none of this, none of this
• 25:34
  Speaker 5: is brain surgery. We can handle this. We can work
• 25:38
  Speaker 5: around it. Like if we record on a different day,
• 25:41
  Speaker 5: it's fine.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: I can't handle it. It has to be always the same. Yeah, No,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it's it's we just roll with a lot of stuff.
• 25:49
  Speaker 5: Mostly we have two hour conversations about our pets, and
• 25:52
  Speaker 5: somewhere in there we've gotten forty minutes of a show.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: And then we go, oh, should we record, Like I'm.
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: I love that that's that's understandable and I approve, especially
• 26:07
  Speaker 6: especially this week because Holly has two new kiddies at home.
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Sorry, there was a lot of conversation about kidies. It's
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: just like a.
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: Kiddie fever over here. I want to hug a cat, which.
• 26:16
  Speaker 4: Then, of course my brain is like, can I come
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: up with some sort of.
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Season?
• 26:22
  Speaker 7: So that's funny cat true cat burglars hey, you know,
• 26:29
  Speaker 7: and every time I'm going to be like and then
• 26:30
  Speaker 7: the tabby across the street.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: Saw the man climb the pole.
• 26:35
  Speaker 6: And there's a whole narrative with the cat lady conversation,
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: with the fact that when you get like the cat scratches,
• 26:43
  Speaker 6: that actually is can.
• 26:45
  Speaker 5: Cause cat scratch fever is usually a lymphatic infection, yes, okay,
• 26:54
  Speaker 5: but there is a specific parasite that is often in
• 27:01
  Speaker 5: many cats systems. Is it tox of plasma? Gandhi, please
• 27:06
  Speaker 5: don't it's tox of plasmosis. But it's yeah, because I
• 27:11
  Speaker 5: just got that thing wrong. But that can actually change
• 27:17
  Speaker 5: your behavior you're exposed to.
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: They're like totally in charge of you.
• 27:24
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's not quite the same as like the parasitic
• 27:29
  Speaker 5: infections that like turn the host into a zombie right.
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: About.
• 27:37
  Speaker 5: You know, servitude, but there is. That's why you know,
• 27:41
  Speaker 5: pregnant women are always encouraged not to scoop litter boxes,
• 27:44
  Speaker 5: et cetera, because they're at heightened sensitivity to it, and
• 27:47
  Speaker 5: that is usually where you might be exposed to it.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: Hey, Cat Burglary, the first episode, I'm gonna be like,
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: this is from my friend.
• 27:58
  Speaker 5: I would rob a bank if my cat told me to,
• 28:01
  Speaker 5: So that seems correct.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: But treats it.
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: Does, right.
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: My cat is trying to teach me new times of
• 28:09
  Speaker 4: day when she should have treats.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: Just when I leave is not working, so.
• 28:18
  Speaker 3: Just like, don't leave enough.
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: So she's like, are you in the kitchen? I think
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: I'm in a treat You're in the kitchen.
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: They're right there. I don't understand the problem.
• 28:28
  Speaker 4: And they're behind glass cabinet door. So she's like, look,
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: I can see them. I'm going to get that parasite
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: and you.
• 28:41
  Speaker 6: Eventually, Oh, I love all these conversations and it's such
• 28:46
  Speaker 6: a great like common ground in this conversation and being
• 28:49
  Speaker 6: able to be friends and actually get along with each
• 28:53
  Speaker 6: other and enjoy each other's company. That's such a different
• 28:55
  Speaker 6: level of when it comes to especially if you're like
• 28:57
  Speaker 6: heavy dead Lives, because I know, writing a book, doing
• 29:00
  Speaker 6: the audiobook, we know.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: You guys did an audio Yeah.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: That was a surprise of us.
• 29:06
  Speaker 6: We didn't realize we had to do one, and then
• 29:08
  Speaker 6: it came up.
• 29:08
  Speaker 3: Were likely we didn't realize. Yeah, we don't know why.
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: They were like, what's happening reading our book is this is.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: Like I never would have written this if I know
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: I had to say it out loud like.
• 29:22
  Speaker 6: The way we wrote our book to this, we were.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: Like, wait, I had moments like that.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: I was like, I never would have written it this
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: way if I knew I was going to be reading
• 29:31
  Speaker 4: the audio book.
• 29:34
  Speaker 2: Taken all.
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: Us bring, but you keep the Italian because I'll mess it.
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: Up right, Well, we're gonna we should have been like,
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: we'll split this up by mostly just by you know,
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: everget we did it the way that we do the
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: podcast that we just kind of you know, a alternating,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: But yeah, we absolutely should have been like in the
• 29:55
  Speaker 4: Holly will take all the French, Marius to call the
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: Italian and well, everybody gets well.
• 30:04
  Speaker 6: I do that sometimes I do sometimes the for hour
• 30:08
  Speaker 6: we have a famished around the world type of a segment,
• 30:10
  Speaker 6: and if it's like French, I'm like, oh, Annie say this,
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: because she knows French better than in German. I'm like,
• 30:16
  Speaker 6: and then even like Mandrain she does well, I'm like,
• 30:18
  Speaker 6: I'm gonna let her handle this.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: You're the language person.
• 30:22
  Speaker 3: I love it because you spring it on me.
• 30:24
  Speaker 6: I'm like, hey, we don't have about the last minut
• 30:27
  Speaker 6: I'm like, there it does.
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you go, I'm not going to read this next sentence.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: That's you.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: Essentially, that's what I put in just for you, just
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: for you, boo.
• 30:37
  Speaker 6: But all of that with that, how was the process
• 30:40
  Speaker 6: in writing this book, as well as doing the audio
• 30:43
  Speaker 6: for you?
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know what.
• 30:45
  Speaker 5: A lot of it was hurry up and wait, yeah,
• 30:50
  Speaker 5: understand that. It would be like, your deadline is this week. Okay, cool, cool, cool,
• 30:54
  Speaker 5: We're gonna bang this out, no problem, we got it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 5: We have it over to you. And then it would
• 30:58
  Speaker 5: be like, are we getting pages back soon because you
• 31:01
  Speaker 5: have another.
• 31:01
  Speaker 3: Deadline coming in right and it's soon like and.
• 31:05
  Speaker 5: Then there was an interesting thing that happened because initially
• 31:09
  Speaker 5: we were both kind of looking at everything and we
• 31:11
  Speaker 5: realized we needed to silo up a little bit to
• 31:14
  Speaker 5: keep things moving along where I kind of focused on
• 31:16
  Speaker 5: the cocktail pieces and she focused on the narrative.
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but Souse, there were sanity at the end.
• 31:20
  Speaker 5: There were a couple moments where that bit us on
• 31:23
  Speaker 5: the tail a little bit, because then our copy editor
• 31:27
  Speaker 5: was like, wait, there's something referenced in the drink that
• 31:30
  Speaker 5: isn't in the narrative, and it was like, uh oh, spaghettios.
• 31:32
  Speaker 5: So we just had to like go back and make
• 31:34
  Speaker 5: things match up again.
• 31:35
  Speaker 3: We tried.
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: I think we might still have one or two that
• 31:38
  Speaker 4: actually made it into the book where we were like,
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: I know there's one story title that doesn't make a
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: lot of sense with the story, but what can you do?
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: You know, you.
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: Need to like you're the very We were at the
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: very end of the book process and I remember I
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: actually remember this particular story, and to fit the copy
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: onto the page, we needed to cut like and I
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: think I needed to cut like maybe maybe two minds
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: or something like that.
• 32:01
  Speaker 2: But in cutting them.
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: I removed the reference to the headline and I didn't
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: realize it. And I think both of us at that
• 32:09
  Speaker 4: point we had been very aware of like cutting X
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: will impact why. But when you get to the very
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: end you're like, wow, I'm at the very end, and
• 32:19
  Speaker 4: I just yeah, yeah, it's got to be done, just
• 32:22
  Speaker 4: has to has to happen.
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: And I think I actually went in thinking that we
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: have one more.
• 32:27
  Speaker 4: Look see at the the final before we went to
• 32:30
  Speaker 4: read the audio book, and I was like, this is
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: the final.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: It we did too, we did, we told we had
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: one more.
• 32:39
  Speaker 5: I'm curious about the two of you. Did you have
• 32:41
  Speaker 5: the thing happen, because I know this happened to us,
• 32:43
  Speaker 5: where when you're reading the audiobook, which is essentially you
• 32:46
  Speaker 5: are reading from the locked manuscript, were you like, damn,
• 32:50
  Speaker 5: I wish we could have done this earlier because there's
• 32:52
  Speaker 5: some stuff I would go back into a switcher on
• 32:56
  Speaker 5: and I was like, I know, saying it out loud,
• 32:57
  Speaker 5: I don't like this as much anymore. Yeah, well, I
• 33:00
  Speaker 5: mean they were minor, but it's still there were a
• 33:02
  Speaker 5: few things that popped up, and I'm like, I would
• 33:03
  Speaker 5: have reworded that.
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: There were minor things, and they were minors so much
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: so that there was one I remember very clearly, there
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: was one stalker story that needed to end in a
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: question mark, but it ended in a period and that
• 33:16
  Speaker 4: will always haunt me.
• 33:21
  Speaker 6: Yes, We definitely had those moments, mainly because again we
• 33:24
  Speaker 6: had not even processed the idea that this was going
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: to be an audio format. Yeah, but we would have
• 33:30
  Speaker 6: like this moments of like this sounds so robotic because
• 33:34
  Speaker 6: reading it it seems like a very matter of fact
• 33:36
  Speaker 6: like information that you're just trying to get out there
• 33:39
  Speaker 6: so that the rest of the conversation or story makes sense.
• 33:42
  Speaker 6: But when you're reading it out loud, you don't know
• 33:45
  Speaker 6: how to actually relay it in a way that's both
• 33:47
  Speaker 6: interesting and noting that it's needed. So I remember a
• 33:51
  Speaker 6: couple of moments like this doesn't this doesn't sound right?
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, isn't that fun?
• 33:55
  Speaker 5: I absolutely considering that the origin point is a podcast, yes, right,
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: then it goes to book, but then when you read
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: the book, it doesn't sound right.
• 34:04
  Speaker 7: Yes.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: When we were doing it, the person who was like
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: our director, she was like podcasters are terrible at.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: This, because she was like, it's just different.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: It's different having like a conversation with someone that can
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: like move and evolve versus I have to read this
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: off of page right.
• 34:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:23
  Speaker 6: Also, we're writing a script versus writing a story, Like
• 34:26
  Speaker 6: it's two different things than our book.
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And like, and you're right.
• 34:31
  Speaker 4: It is the difference between writing the script for your
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: episode and writing a story that's they're a short story
• 34:37
  Speaker 4: that's going to be you know, highlighting a drink in
• 34:40
  Speaker 4: a book, it's a different kind of thing.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: So I always I'm always reading, and I know Holly
• 34:44
  Speaker 2: is too.
• 34:45
  Speaker 4: When we get our scripts, we're always reading them aloud
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: and in different draft modes, you know. But when you're
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: working with the book, you are, I mean, at least
• 34:52
  Speaker 4: I was reading it aloud, but it's not quite the
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: same as when you get into that room.
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: And our room when we.
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: Did our audio book was one big recording studio, and
• 35:00
  Speaker 4: we sat in it together, which I generally when we
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: and I was outing myself as as kind of gross,
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: but like.
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: We record, I cough a lot.
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: When I'm talking for this amount of time, and so
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: it was one of those moments where you were like,
• 35:16
  Speaker 4: I can't even like pick up the pronunciation piece of
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: paper because I will make a noise and Holly's talking
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: and I'm not used to that kind of problem, and
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: this was like this like I got a sneeze and
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: I can't and I got my It was so it
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: wasn't even just reading it was just like daily living
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: in my body. That was difficult, very silent.
• 35:38
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: The director would occasionally come on and be like, there's
• 35:40
  Speaker 5: some weird noise I can't.
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: One time he's like, I think I heard somebody's stomach grumble.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, that's me.
• 35:48
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: I didn't want to open my water because it might
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: actually cause noise.
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Like yeah, I had at the time when we did
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: our audio book, I had a stress related vocal problem
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: called globis. It was horrible. I still struggle with it.
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: But it just makes you feel like there's something in
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: your throat all the time.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: Are you clear? Do you clear your throat a lot? Clear?
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: It feels like like you're swallowing a lot.
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: You swallow a lot.
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: But yeah, it's this like speaking noise in this and
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: it's the worst, like the worst thing for the job
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: that we have.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: I'd be interested if you have thoughts about this. Our
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: book was a tough one to read aloud because I
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: it was emotional and it was like a really rough
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I was not anticipating I was going to have to
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: say this, and now I'm doing it. Because you work
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: in true crime and you've talked about how that's not
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: necessarily something that has super interested you in the past,
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: but like the historical aspect of being careful and all
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: of those aspects. But was it Is it difficult sometimes
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: when you're you're reading these things or writing these things.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Yes. Absolutely.
• 37:09
  Speaker 4: I actually recall there was one story that you were reading,
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: Holly when we were in the audiobook room, where she
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: just and I knew that this was a story that
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: that uh, that that got her the first time we
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: read it, and Janet Horne and I know it's a
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: really difficult one for Holly, and I tried to be
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: like super quiet when she had to read it because
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: I knew she was like getting through it, you.
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: Know, paying it by a thread. I mean, it's like one.
• 37:37
  Speaker 5: It was not originally an episode of ours. It's one
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: that was just for the book, and it's about a
• 37:41
  Speaker 5: woman who was burned as a witch, but she almost
• 37:48
  Speaker 5: just had dementia and.
• 37:51
  Speaker 3: Her story just really I don't know what it is.
• 37:54
  Speaker 5: It really hits me hard, even to the point where
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: when I made the drink for it and I was
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: The illustrations are actually they start with photographs, like I
• 38:05
  Speaker 5: take photographs of all the drinks. I staged them out
• 38:07
  Speaker 5: with props and then I put those those photographs into
• 38:10
  Speaker 5: photoshop and I do tracing around them and cross hatching
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: and like make them look like you know, the idea
• 38:16
  Speaker 5: was to borrow from the Jerry Thomas Cocktail book from
• 38:20
  Speaker 5: the eighteen sixties. That's all, you know, crosshatchy pen illustration
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: and even doing hers like all of the taking the
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: picture of her drink, I was like, kind of a mess.
• 38:32
  Speaker 5: All of the ingredients in it are about it's called apology,
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: and it's all the ingredients are about forgiveness and making
• 38:41
  Speaker 5: peace and apologizing. And I included kali lilies as part
• 38:44
  Speaker 5: of her photograph because those are also associated with the
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: idea of penitents. And I literally kept getting choked up
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: just taking the damn pictures of the cocktail and I
• 38:54
  Speaker 5: was like, we is gonna be a mess. And I
• 38:56
  Speaker 5: barely got through that.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: I know that story ended.
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: The ending image in her story is her being walked
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: to her execution point and there's a fire going because
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: they're going to burn her, and she just walks over
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: and starts warming herself by the fire, and that's.
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: The end of her story. And that how could it
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: not get you?
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, really, I literally have choked up just talking
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: about this.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Yes, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.
• 39:28
  Speaker 7: No, no, no, don't be sorry. It's easy crier, so
• 39:33
  Speaker 7: it's not that long a walk. But she in particular
• 39:36
  Speaker 7: really hits my heart in a way that none of
• 39:39
  Speaker 7: the others have. I mean, many others have made me
• 39:41
  Speaker 7: cry at various times, but she's just like really hard
• 39:44
  Speaker 7: for me.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: Her story is a very very emotional and difficult one.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: I find sometimes when.
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: I'm doing research for various episodes that there will be
• 39:54
  Speaker 4: things that will come up that will either change my
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: change my mind about how the script is going to
• 40:02
  Speaker 4: be written, or sometimes change my mind on whether or
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: not that person or person's will even become an episode.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: There are some.
• 40:13
  Speaker 4: Things that I kind of hold back on when I'm
• 40:15
  Speaker 4: looking at our season schedule, and well, one we talked
• 40:19
  Speaker 4: about earlier we don't.
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: Do modern true crime.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: But two, there's this there's a there's a children component
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: to it that I don't feel.
• 40:28
  Speaker 2: Comfortable talking about.
• 40:30
  Speaker 4: And in general, you won't find children come up in
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: our episodes unless they are not the main character. And
• 40:38
  Speaker 4: that in particular has become a really interesting problem in
• 40:42
  Speaker 4: Cold Cases season because a lot of cold cases tend
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: to I didn't know this before I started my research there,
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: but a lot of the cold cases that are historical
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: cold cases seem to be very heavy on young women
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: in their early twenties and and.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: Kids.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: And so there are some things I just find a
• 41:07
  Speaker 4: little bit taboo, a little bit uncomfortable, a little bit
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: just don't want to go down that path of this
• 41:11
  Speaker 4: particular podcast isn't for that. Those are hard stories, and
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: you know, I mean, sometimes you just come across some
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: really hard, you know, quotes that you know somebody said
• 41:22
  Speaker 4: when they testified, and you're like, oh, my gosh, do
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: I include this idiot in the script or do I not?
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: But sometimes it's actually the story takes a turn where
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: you think, to yourself, this is absolutely horrifying, and then
• 41:36
  Speaker 4: you have to decide what to do with that.
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: Those are the ones where are when we do them.
• 41:40
  Speaker 5: The cocktail often tends about tends to be about trying
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: to be an antidote for that.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: Sitch exactly, and I love that.
• 41:47
  Speaker 7: One of our.
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: Recent seasons, so it's not in the book, one of
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: the women that we talked about in the Criminal Duos
• 41:56
  Speaker 5: season had a mother who treated her like trash, and
• 42:02
  Speaker 5: even so when she was eventually incarcerated. She wrote letters
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: to her mom that were so concerned about having hurt
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: her mother and having like embarrassed the family and stuff.
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: The drink we ended up making was kind of like
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: a you know, what if she had had the life
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: she should have had, because she was a very smart, curious,
• 42:25
  Speaker 5: interesting person who was very very chic in her mode
• 42:30
  Speaker 5: of dress, and like, if she had had the life
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: she should have had, she would have been amazing. And
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: I was like, what is the drink that she would
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: have had in her cosmopolitan lifestyle? Yes, that she really
• 42:40
  Speaker 5: really deserved to live, And that's the drink we ended
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: up making.
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: And instead she was married to Clyde Barrow's brother, you know,
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: like it got.
• 42:49
  Speaker 5: Completely involved in like stuff she had no business being.
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: No business and she even said, you know, she wrote
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: later on that she know, she know her role was
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: really like I would pay for the lodging and I.
• 43:01
  Speaker 2: Would cook the food and do the clothing.
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: And she really wasn't she was part of the gang,
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: but she would she didn't.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Really, yeah, she wasn't.
• 43:09
  Speaker 5: But it was one of those cases where he was
• 43:11
  Speaker 5: the first person that ever treated her kindly and with
• 43:14
  Speaker 5: genuine love, and so it was like, well, you're a
• 43:17
  Speaker 5: criminal and you're involved in some shady stuff, but but
• 43:20
  Speaker 5: you're kind to me, and that's all. I've never had
• 43:22
  Speaker 5: that before, so I'll stick it out.
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: And he was really hers was really very sad. And
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: when we got to the you know, her time in prison,
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: because you know, one she she was part of this
• 43:33
  Speaker 4: gang where if you needed to pick one person who
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: was going to go to prison for everything that they
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: were doing, it probably shouldn't have been her. But but
• 43:41
  Speaker 4: but just her, Yeah, Holly. I mean, when Holly was
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: talking about her letters, it really reminded me that her
• 43:48
  Speaker 4: story is so separate from the story that she actually
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: was living. And sometimes you come up with these these
• 43:57
  Speaker 4: these dualities or these surprises in your research and you're like, oh, well,
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: we should talk about her because she's interesting and not
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: just because she wears really great pants, just.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: Because she dresses like a starlet.
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: Right Man, nineteen thirty.
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: I love this because I think it's so important when
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: you're talking about things like this that it's the compassion
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: and the curiosity is so clear and just like really
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: wanting to get to know the people that you're talking about.
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I would love if we could briefly discuss I think
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: it's interesting that both of you kind of tried new
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: ish things for this, because Holly you had done like
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: you were familiar with cocktails, but you actually went to
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: bartending school, right.
• 44:49
  Speaker 3: I did, she did. Yeah, and they're so creative.
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: I love how much thought you put into like, yeah,
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: what do these ingredients mean?
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: And everything?
• 44:58
  Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean I I've realized pretty quickly, like listen,
• 45:03
  Speaker 5: Holly drinks. I've had a lot of cocktails in my time, right,
• 45:08
  Speaker 5: I'm a pretty adventurous consumer, so there have been I
• 45:13
  Speaker 5: will try a lot of things that I've never had before,
• 45:15
  Speaker 5: and so I knew probably more than the average bear
• 45:19
  Speaker 5: about various cocktails.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: But I really.
• 45:21
  Speaker 5: Didn't have the foundational knowledge that was gonna carry me
• 45:25
  Speaker 5: through seasons and seasons. And I didn't even know we
• 45:28
  Speaker 5: would be here at season you know, fifteen, talking about
• 45:32
  Speaker 5: new things and being I don't know how many hundreds
• 45:34
  Speaker 5: of drinks in the mix. But I just realized, like,
• 45:37
  Speaker 5: I am gonna make messes if I don't get my
• 45:40
  Speaker 5: act together and really really get that you know, baseline
• 45:45
  Speaker 5: foundational knowledge under my belt. So that I mean, I
• 45:49
  Speaker 5: go into my canteena to experiment already having usually a
• 45:53
  Speaker 5: pretty solid idea in mind of what is what I'm making.
• 45:57
  Speaker 5: And that's because of that education, which was.
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: You know great. I highly recommend it for anybody.
• 46:04
  Speaker 5: It's a really fun, fun area of learning, and I
• 46:10
  Speaker 5: ended up with some really fun history knowledge from it
• 46:13
  Speaker 5: because the course that I took also talked about things like, hey,
• 46:18
  Speaker 5: here's why this rum is different from other RUMs, and
• 46:21
  Speaker 5: it's because there was a slave uprising on the island
• 46:24
  Speaker 5: where they originally processed this, and so you don't have
• 46:28
  Speaker 5: it from molasses runoff anymore. It's from pure cane sugar.
• 46:30
  Speaker 5: And I was like, this is the course for me,
• 46:32
  Speaker 5: This is the correct one, And.
• 46:34
  Speaker 2: She'll come back from that and I'll be like, tell
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: me more.
• 46:44
  Speaker 5: You know, ended up researching to a lot of cocktail history, right,
• 46:49
  Speaker 5: Like I often, because we're telling historical stories, it's a
• 46:53
  Speaker 5: good fallback. It's like a really good safety net when
• 46:55
  Speaker 5: I especially when we're dealing with a story that is
• 46:59
  Speaker 5: sad or upsetting, to be able to be like, okay,
• 47:03
  Speaker 5: but what drinks were popular at this time and how
• 47:05
  Speaker 5: can we tie that into this story. We just did
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: one like that that we recorded this week because it
• 47:11
  Speaker 5: was like a little tricky, and I was like, hey,
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: but what is I know, we're talking about a really
• 47:17
  Speaker 5: gruesome murder, but what was going on in cocktails then?
• 47:22
  Speaker 5: And ended up turning up the story of a woman
• 47:25
  Speaker 5: who was one of the few head bartenders at the
• 47:28
  Speaker 5: Savoy Hotel in London in nineteen twenty or in the
• 47:31
  Speaker 5: nineteen twenties, So like, she has her own interesting story
• 47:34
  Speaker 5: and we could tie that into the cocktail segment and
• 47:37
  Speaker 5: make it less about so almost beheaded. Oh yeah, that's
• 47:41
  Speaker 5: not an awesome place to start drinking, but we can
• 47:45
  Speaker 5: talk about what else was going on in this time period.
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: This is what everyone was So this this particular episode
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: that we wrote was very media. Tabloids were real fresh
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: and so it was real tabloid story forward and they
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: were really pushing the story.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: And the way that I went when Holly.
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: Came to talk about the cocktail and mocktail, the way
• 48:05
  Speaker 4: that I started thinking about it was this is what
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: people were drinking when they were gossiping about what was
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: going on with this particular trial, And that was actually
• 48:14
  Speaker 4: kind of a neat little way to think about.
• 48:16
  Speaker 2: Like everybody in the bar had this particular episode.
• 48:20
  Speaker 4: They're all talking about what Herst's newspaper was just you know,
• 48:23
  Speaker 4: just printed on its front page.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much for joining us, Holly Afria.
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: You were such a delight to talk to you. We
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: should do a cocktail mocktail hour.
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: We come back together any day. Sign of hats But
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: where can the good listeners find you?
• 48:41
  Speaker 3: In my bar?
• 48:42
  Speaker 5: Making is a safe bet? I gotta tell you.
• 48:49
  Speaker 4: So like.
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: You could you know, listen to Criminalia anywhere you listen
• 48:55
  Speaker 5: to your favorite shows. We opted to not do specific
• 49:00
  Speaker 5: Criminalia social media handle, so you could just hashtag Criminalia
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: and we will see it. And then the book Killer
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: Cocktails is available anywhere you would buy books.
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: And this has been such a delight. Obviously we could
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: have kept going, but listeners. In the meantime, if you
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: would like to contact us, you can. You can email
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: us at Hello at stuff Onnever Told You dot com
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: or stuff Media mom Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: can find us on blue Sky at mom Stuff podcast,
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: or on Instagram and TikTok at stuff one Never Told
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: You for us on YouTube. We have a tea public
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: store and we have book you can get wherever you
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: get your books. Thanks as always to our super producer,
• 49:36
  Speaker 1: Presenior Executive Producer Maya and.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: Our contributor Joey. Thank you and thanks to you for.
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: Listening stuff on Never Told You Use Production by Heart Radio.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: For more podcast on my Heart Radio, you can check
• 49:44
  Speaker 1: out the Art Radio Appple podcast or where you listen
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: to your favorite shows.