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What I've Learnt - Hunter Johnson · WHAT I'VE LEARNT

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_02: Hunter Johnson is the founder and CEO of The Man Cave, a charity that has impacted the lives of 20,000 young men across Australia.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: He's also an advisor to the Queen's Commonwealth Trust, championing young people throughout the Commonwealth.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_02: Alongside Prince Harry, the president of QCT, Hunter's work has led him to speak around the world, including presenting at the United Nations Government House, Human Rights Commission, and Sydney Opera House, just to name a few.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_02: He's been recognised as a finalist for the 2020 Young Australian of the Year Awards and listed as one of Harper's Bazaar's visionary men for 2019.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: He's also named a Queen's Young Leader by the Queen and the winner of the EY Social Entrepreneur of the Year Award.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: Men at risk of becoming socially isolated following the global pandemic will now be able to access new ways of receiving support for their mental health, thanks to Hunter's work with Movember.
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_02: The Man Cave is now supported with funding over the next two years through Movember's Social Connections Challenge.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_02: The SCC aims at identifying strategies that will strengthen the social connections of men who are struggling with isolation and poor mental health, particularly in the wake of COVID-19 lockdowns.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Results of a study commissioned by Movember in May 2020 found that nearly a quarter of men globally reported their mental health had worsened in the first six weeks of the pandemic.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_02: So this funding is also helping Hunter develop the Man Cave TV, featuring funny educational and dynamic video content on topics such as sex, death, well-being and relationships.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Hunter is passionate about making a social change, having seen the impacts of mental illness, depression, and domestic violence in his own team years.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_02: He reflects I saw lots of guys who we really cared about experiencing years of anxiety and depression.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_02: But to be honest, no one was really talking about it.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: So, the Man Cave was created with their first ever workshop kicking off at Frankston High School.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_02: And since then, the programme has gone from strength to strength.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Also receiving international recognition.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_02: You know, when the royal family fires you over to accept the Queen's Young Leader Award, it's a good sign you're on the right track.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_02: So, Hunter, I'd like to welcome you to the What I've Learnt podcast and tell us a little bit about what you've been doing and how all of this came to be.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: You've made such an impact and have really you've really sort of owned the masculinity space.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So tell me what first inspired you to get involved.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Deb.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Very excited to hang out with you.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: What a privilege.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: What first inspired me, I think I grew up in a family environment that really encouraged service.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: And uh I rebelled against that for a very long time.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_00: Um being a very cheeky teenager that pushed limits and boundaries and was a bit of a thrill seeker, but those damn family values um came back to get me.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um goodness for us, they did, yes.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: I know, I think I just needed to get out of my own way.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: And um yeah, I was very fortunate.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: My my grandfather uh was a wonderful role model for me growing up.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I grew up with him always encouraging me to invest in experiences and to learn from those experiences and to do things that were off-brand for myself.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: So, what things that I would never find myself doing?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: How can I invest in experiences where I can have new skill sets, develop new friendships and relationships, and ultimately just become a more well-rounded human being.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then my uh my parents as well, in their own unique ways.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: My dad always encouraged me to follow my own path, and my mum has just been an unconditional support throughout everything, the highs and the lows, and everything in between.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_02: And so tell me, so your grandfather was clearly you were close to him as well.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um, can you tell me a little bit about what is it that he, because there's lots of people that are close to their grandfather or their parents.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I I also come from a family very focused on service.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_02: My mum was a magistrate, my father was a doctor.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's very much about what you can do for the community.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And so I understand what specifically was it, a sense that um, as you say, you had to carve your own version, but was there something specific you observed them doing that that truly inspired?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think one of the things I respect most about my grandfather is that he is the type of person.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I'll just give this example.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: So him and my grandma ran this event in Sydney called the Beecroft Forum, right?
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: And they get together a whole bunch of people in their like kind of 80s and above, and they invite in like a thought leader, a speaker, an activist to speak to 200 people who are like, you know, 75 and above.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you would just never know that he was behind it.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Him and my grandma are in the back right corner.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: My grandma's done all the name tags herself, and he's the one that's kind of supported the speaker, paid the speaker fee, and just organized all the tickets.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: But again, it's it's purely that, you know, that real traditional philanthropy where it's not about name on the wing of the hospital, but about doing the right thing when no one's looking.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I was just exposed to just moments like that throughout my childhood, which I didn't take um a lot at the time, but it took I think that's the interesting thing about values that they take sometimes take a while to really seed and grow.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: Another wonderful experience I had with him was I was about 10 years old.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_00: We had a family wedding in in South Africa, we're driving through the countryside and we're going through these like real kind of shanty towns.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, I remember he um pulled, we pulled over, and I just started kicking a soccer ball with some of the local kids over there.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_00: And um he invited me to go into this building, which was like a rundown kind of shack.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, okay, I ran over, 10 years old, held his hand.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_00: I walked in and I saw very quickly it was actually a hospital.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, oh my goodness, like my 10-year-old eyeballs just like lit up and started to take it all in.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I watched him just go around, just meet with people, say hello.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_00: And then as we went to walk out, he kind of held my hand a bit, waited till my mum kind of walked out, and he wrote a check for a thousand dollars and put it in the tin donation jar and then walked out and didn't say a word to anyone.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, he probably didn't know.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_02: And you were watching, and what a wonderful story.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: And I mean, I think, I mean, particularly, I mean, I know I've been to I've seen those shanty towns and I've been to South Africa, it's very confronting.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_02: And the fact that he did that, I suppose what you're also saying is he just quietly did that, but little did he know by osmosis the the impact that we have as parents or grandparents on our kids, and that resonated with you and clearly has driven you on quite on this mission which you've embarked on, just watching elements of that, and I love that story, it's really quite um uh reflective of how I think you've come to where you are.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: Well, certainly in Batley.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I absolutely I think um yeah, it's just amazing how those things just at the time shape character, and you know, that as I said before, they take a little while for them to manifest, but it they just become real crucible moments in development.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_00: And um, you know, for me, I just have that as a a memory that I can always just fall back on.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that was, you know, I think one of the greatest legacies, I think, for you know, we talk about eldership or grandparenting is to create a better world for our grandkids.
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think what he did was showed me, you know, a moral compass.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then obviously, you know, my parents along the way.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, there's a wonderful line that I think um actually Arna Rubenstein introduced to me, which is um who I know very well, yes.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um the um you know, the the grandparent and the grandchild have a special relationship because they have a common enemy.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um I love that.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_02: That's so hard, aren't you?
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: I really love so you know, I think that that might have played out.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: I got a few uh all passes that potentially my mum didn't get from my grandfather.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: It's actually true, and and I love that cross-generational unification sort of it's it's quite a beautiful image, actually.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so clearly you work very much in the mentor space, but but let's talk, let's get down to what it is that you do and how you developed this man cave, this extraordinary organization.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um maybe go back to when you were a young man and you saw what was happening to some of the boys and men around you, because it sounds like that's where it all started.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I grew up in a very masculine, very alpha environment and didn't know any different.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: That that was the context I had that I lived into.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, if you think about high school, high school is very much about social survival, and it's you know, it's it's a hierarchy, and it's where do you fit on the hierarchy and how do you maintain that position?
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: We all find you know really unique ways in which to deal with high school, you know.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Some become the most extroverted, the funniest grab the most attention, some really kind of shy away and stay out of attention, others become you know the smartest in order to get status.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so we all have our different ways.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_00: And high school is just such a fascinating hotpot of just you know, hormones, social pressures, brain development.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: So true, so true.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um and you know, in my environment, we were just a very rowdy group of boys and my friendship group.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: And was it a boys' school?
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_02: Did you go to a boys school?
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_00: I did go to a boys' school, yeah.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: I went to a co-ed school and then transitioned to a boys' school.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and you know, that I was fortunate the model at the school that I went to really worked for me because I really celebrated sport.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: And so that that was kind of what got me through.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But if I look back on it, there were so many moments I wish that I had someone who was not an authoritative figure that could have come back and just supported me in being like, hey mate, you probably don't really want to do that.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, I've seen you make that decision.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: Is that in alignment with who you are?
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: As opposed to, you know, you're a naughty kid get out of the class.
• 10:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I think growing up in that, I just saw from a personal level, some of my closest friends go through years of their own mental health challenges.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Some of the men in my family go through years and still to this day, um, really severe mental health challenges.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it just didn't make sense to me that the systems we have to deal with, whether it is mental health or family violence, are very much geared around crisis management.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_02: And I wait till things get really bad before it's addressed.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_02: Is that like it's it's like waiting till the accident?
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And then we deal with the symptom, you know, we wrap a band-aid around the symptom.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: And it it just kind of, you know, in my early 20s, when things, you know, life is starting to happen at a bit faster pace.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: People, you know, you're making adult-like decisions with adult implications, and it it just didn't make sense to me that um so many people I knew, both those who identify as men and women, were not well, the the cause of a lot of their pain was often a lot of boys who grew up as lost boys that were growing up into hurt men.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I just knew the the beautiful gifts and the beauty of so many men that didn't get to come out because of their social conditioning to be strong, be tough, be stoic, show no emotion, get on with it.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, when I we we obviously talk about the words toxic masculinity quite a bit now.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, we do.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I I kind of sub that word out and I just think of it as generational trauma.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it's the the little unconscious biases that are built in, the microaggressions, the policing of behavior that shape um modern masculinity.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: And I just saw that through and through how um, you know, I treated young women when I was a teenage boy to how my mates did, to what I was exposed to.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought there could be a much better way to support boys and bring out their strengths rather than focus on their deficits.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the model.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and and what you say is just incredibly uh incredibly it first of all, you know, watching young men, particularly recently.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we've seen some of this uh trauma acting out, if you like, with a lot of the schools being called into account, as we know, both in Sydney and Melbourne, you know, quite confronting and extreme examples of inverted commas, bad boy behavior, um, which seem enculturated, as you say, and sort of almost like an indelibly imprinted on the school infrastructure, on the on everything that we do.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_02: And you just sort of go, why is this something that has never been addressed?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_02: Why is this not been dealt with earlier?
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_02: How is this?
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, even if you go back, you know, we understand we say men to war, and there's that whole sort of war soldier culture that you see, which is by the way, cultivated by many of the war games that they play on on computers, etc., etc.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like as a mother, I've observed some of that.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_02: But separate to that, it is well, is it separate?
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe it's because I find it really um incongruous.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: How do we teach men to be accessing this material, this kindness, this centeredness, this beautiful um energy that I know are in most men?
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do we reconcile all that when everything is screaming to not be that?
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, well, it's it's really about my belief, it's about creating an ecosystem of healthy masculinity.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's not just you know a school system, but it's the parenting that goes on in the household.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's the you know, exposure to a diverse range of healthy men in a community setting.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's the games that young men, you know, put into their brains from the early ages of development to how they engage with social media and how the algorithm perpetuates things that grab their attention, which are usually really shocking and mostly quite nasty things, all the way to you know, who are we allowing in our highest office of parliament and what's the behaviour that we're allowing to because of privilege and entitlement.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_00: And and also, you know, I think there's different people play different roles in a movement.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_00: And if we're on the movement towards equality, it's incredibly important that there are those rightfully angry feminists, you know, who just want to tear down the patriarchy.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely, we need that.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_00: And also, in my belief, we need people who can meet boys and men where they're at and bring them on the journey to consciousness, and that doesn't necessarily mean that the change happens overnight, but it's using language that is an early entry to onboard them into the movement because I fundamentally believe that the at everyone's core there is just love, trust, and service.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And it's about how do we get to that in a way that's not too intimidating, that's not too angry, that we can really kind of bring them on the journey.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's if we come back to the man cave.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_00: Often I talk about our facilitators who deliver our programs with teenage boys as the conscious Trojan horse.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: So they walk in, they're cool, they're edgy, they're really well trained on the human condition, on group dynamics, on understanding the different personalities and archetypes they're going to encounter.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: But they're also fun and playful and they dress cool and they build rapport, they have banter and they earn the right to have an authentic conversation with boys who are largely in trouble or they're told not to do something.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: And as we know as teenagers, if we're told not to do something, what do we do?
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's very much, you know, coming back to your questions, right?
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: How do you create an ecosystem of healthy masculinity in a way that brings boys and men on the journey?
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_00: That that's what I think is is really important.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think also I find it really uh quite interesting the way you refer to it almost as like a movement or even a revolution of sorts, because I actually think for it to change, it's going to need that what you're saying is that level of uplift.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and we can see this happening.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_02: What you've done with the Mankave, then obviously Mankave TV, which we'll talk about, but but even what's happening with November as well.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, that is phenomenal.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's like taking on such momentum.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_02: If you would have told me that you'd get so many of these guys walking around with, you know, their mastaches and everybody um raising funds for so there's a lot of people getting on board, which is the good news.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_02: But how hard has that been from when you started, which would be quite a while now?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know exactly the years um in between, but you've come a long way.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: How how do you think that transition is happening?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: And do you think it's happening fast enough?
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: We're definitely at a point of evolution for masculinity, there's no question about that.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I think with change comes uncertainty, and that makes people really scared.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: And fair enough.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because we're also talking about identity here, and that's one of the things that we hold closest to our own human experience.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so often when we see men who are very resistant to gender equality or to seeing women in power and women thriving, it's because they're threatened in their own identity.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, what you know, the the the scariest thing for a lot of these guys that we've found is that often they're unaware that they've also been impacted by the patriarchy.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so what you have is like the wounded masculine, which also results in the wounded feminine.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it's a weird full circle that in order to heal this, we actually have to support men to heal and love themselves and all the parts that have been rejected or humiliated or shamed in order to have a deeper sense of self so that they can have self-awareness and then choose to positively act into equality.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's like, you know, we're all on our own journey with personal development or doing the work, whatever buzzwords you want to wrap around it.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's how do we support people to want to step into becoming the best in our context father, mentor, guardian, role model for the next generation of young men?
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because we know as we look at the you know the data, whether it's mental health, whether it's family violence, it's men who are the common denominator in all of this.
• 19:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so um, when they haven't, it's it's it's it's also that interesting, delicate balance of how do you tell someone they're privileged when their life has been a struggle to them, you know, and that's very interesting conundrum that you reflect there because I think you're right, and also the a few things that emerge from what you're saying, which is at the end of the day, we have to nurture it, that we can't judge it, because judgment leads to backlash and aggression and it brings out the worst.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: So part of what you're saying is to nurture that healing is something we have to approach men with a tenderness.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, funnily enough, I often think you know, men are much more tender than sometimes women realise, and it's that same circle you talk about.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: We can't heal, we can't recover if we don't heal our men and treat them with the gentleness and intelligence that they require.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: If we approach it with aggression, it doesn't actually respond, they don't respond to that, and therefore that circle you talk about is very interesting.
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_02: But also, I like the way that you refer to the fact that some of these men don't see that they're a byproduct of history, sort of in a way.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: They're they're dealing with the you know the the cards they've been dealt, and they don't necessarily know any different.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, coming back to that, it's and this is what's so interesting around uh you know the the white male privilege conversation where suddenly a lot of kind of you know middle class men are feeling victims and you know very much, very much, you know, and and yeah, it's tricky because privilege is invisible to those who have it, and so often when those who are in privilege, um, you know, equality can feel like oppression.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: And it's true.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: Did you see today?
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know if you saw Hunter, but they had um there was an article today um that you know there was the Australian Club and the men's club that was they actually voted against women being accepted into the club.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been a huge it was on the front page of the Australian.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was like, you know, the biggest news that oh my god, the men's club can't cope with the fact they're under pressure to include women, which is quite an interesting, you know, who would think?
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: But they actually, I think 62% voted to actually exclude women and to keep it as a Club.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Now, while I'm not necessarily myself taking a position on that, although I do have my thoughts, that is so anarch you sort of think that's so archaic.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: However, to your point, how do men protect their bastions, which they are entitled to have?
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_02: Not that I'm saying they're entitled to that one, but that's the conundrum.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: How do you protect being male and being allowed to be male or white or privileged or whatever it is that you are, but not and not feel judge, but also to grow and change and to adapt?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because who would have thought after all these years that that is the response they get on that vote?
• 22:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's also I can provide another perspective into this that um you know, some conversations I have with men are like, well, we're not allowed to have male-only places at the and what's wrong with that?
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_00: There are heaps of women groups that go on, so but we don't try to get into them.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it's it's it's way more laid than that.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the catch, right?
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that's the tip of the iceberg conversation, but it's also you know, it ties into things like cancel culture and um you know um the petitions that are going on around consent education at the moment, and often what we see because the gender debate is so turbulent, it's it's emotional, it's it's very personal, but also it's the language that's used is is quite advanced.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And for a lot of men, they haven't necessarily, for whatever life reason, developed the education to be able to engage in such a nuanced debate.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: And so they don't.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: Or they watch someone make an attempt and put their point of view forward, and then they see that person get vilified or cancelled or whatever it may be, and they go, No way am I doing that.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just gonna remain silent and I'm gonna have some conversations with the water cooler, um, and probably end up perpetuating the behaviors we're trying to eradicate in society.
• 24:09
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, coming back full circle to Man Cave, it's like what we really do at Man Cave is just create spaces for boys to take off the mask they wear, to be able to speak in an environment where they're not worried about if they're going to be politically correct or incorrect, but they can actually start to articulate some of their perspectives, their beliefs, their world views, and get educated on them and actually hear from someone else's life experience who's very different to their own.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what we find is, you know, one of my favorite quotes is you can't hate somebody whose story you know.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we find that daily in our programs that we see is that all it takes is just the space where they feel like safe enough to ask a question that they won't be in trouble for, and they get educated and they want to do better.
• 24:56
  SPEAKER_00: So, my kind of reflection back to society is how do we create these pockets for men to be educated in an environment where they feel uh whatever language you want to give, accessible, safe to support it.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because I think what yeah, what you're saying, and there is no doubt in my mind, speaking to men, brothers, sisters, fathers, everyone, men are actually scared at the moment.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_02: They are actually scared.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like there's a lot of men, whether you are talking about, as you mentioned, you know, the middle-aged or the the white privileged inverted commerce male who goes, What did I do?
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_02: What have I done?
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_02: Or you've got the young men who are 19, 20 who are going, Wow, I've got really careful what I do, which is not a bad thing.
• 25:38
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of that's I think are positive.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_02: However, we certainly don't want to scare them into oblivion, is what you're saying.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_02: There's no point them talking at the watercooler, because that's not going to actually help anything.
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's just going to cultivate a sense of isolation, alienation, detachment, all of the things.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_02: You just send them back into the ether.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_02: That doesn't help.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_02: What you're trying to do is bring them out and say, this is safe.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_02: You can talk here.
• 26:03
  unknown: Yeah.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_02: We will nurture you.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: And inside of that, it's, you know, I also empathize for minority communities here because it's so often on the marginalized or the minority community to educate the privileged.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's, you know, where do we, where is the line where, you know, what actually it's a point in time where men need to start doing their own education, need to start being prepared to make a few mistakes along the way, but to come back to a higher truth opposed to just worrying about their own personal brand or personal identity?
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um acting, yeah, that's interesting.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_02: Do you find that?
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um are you getting traction in that?
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I can see you're getting traction because you're getting great resonance for the Man Cave and the entire movement.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_02: What do you think are the greatest challenges moving forward?
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_02: And how do we stop, I suppose, the uh hysteria of which there is quite a bit around this?
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: Some justified, some maybe not.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_02: How do we how do you navigate that?
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, the so the greatest challenge I I would say was two way.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: I can answer that up for man cave, and then just broadly in society.
• 27:17
  SPEAKER_00: Man cave is currently our programs of service delivery.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so, as you know, with service delivery, it's the the conundrum is how do you increase your quantity whilst maintaining your quality?
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: And so that's why you know the the partnership we've just announced with November is really exciting for us too, because it's allowing us to digitize our programs and um our services and using content that's edgy and funny but also very wholesome at the same time.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then from a societal point of view, I just think there's a real lack of male role models in society that are the beacons of who the modern man wants to be.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I really struggle to go who is the man who I would back in a public conversation alongside someone like Grace Tane, you know, like to have an amazing conversation that can empathize, that can, you know, if he has a disagreement, he can be in control of his himself enough to be able to have a civilized disagreement, not chuck a tantrum, but also, you know, is a man that is about service and it isn't about just always the bottom line, you know.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: So it's it's just really rare, I think, to find that kind of modern man who is able to still function really healthily in society, but also is able to be a phenomenal family man and a person in their community too.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: I just think there's a lack of role models that are accessible uh right now.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a very very important point.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_02: And actually on that note, you talk about um, you know, role models, but also maybe ironically, I don't know what you think about this, but but you know, with COVID and men have being forced back into the home, literally, because they can't work at the office.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Now, I've had personal experience of that with my husband watching that happen, it's been very positive for him, but not for everyone.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_02: But the interesting thing about that is it removes the corporate overlay for many men and the expectation and the pressure and the anxiety of literally the tie around their neck and the suit on their body, right?
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_02: Like physically, they have really been freed, liberated from that.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: They don't have to do that, they can be in their jeans or the tracksuit, but also emotionally, my observation for many, many, many men, and I know many in the corporate sector, saying, Yeah, I get to actually enjoy my garden, to be in my home, to cook in my kitchen, to not just be out being the inverted commas hunter, out like, you know, and then walking in, like leaving at seven, coming home at seven, and not really enjoying the fruits of my labor until the weekend.
• 30:01
  SPEAKER_02: That very infrastructure is also an interesting change.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_02: While COVID has had many negative things, I think that's been really something we always talk about, oh no, people out of the office and they're da-da-da.
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't know, what are your reflections on that?
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_02: I'm just giving you my perspective.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it was like I've also got a personal experience.
• 30:21
  SPEAKER_00: My older brother works in the mines in Papua New Guinea, and um he's had a uh a little daughter who he was able to spend the first six months of her life with her, you know, and he he wouldn't have been able to do that because he's a fly-in, fly out worker.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, and it was just amazing because he'll, you know, that's time which he will, you know, be so grateful in probably now, but also in so many years' time that he he was able to do that.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it's also really interesting because you know, in many family structures, families, the family dynamic is can be built around families not actually being together.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So that the norm becomes not being together.
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: So you know, the the dynamic is like, okay, particularly those who have kids, where the raising the kids is becoming the primary objective of the household.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_00: Often, you know, what we find with parents is they kind of lose their sense of self and also the intimacy and growing, the collective growing in their relationship, too.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: So then they're now back together, going, Well, okay, we haven't done this since the early days, you know.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: How are you?
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: How do we want to do this?
• 31:31
  SPEAKER_02: And very, yeah, it's a very interesting client.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, my actually, my father, who's from an older, he's in his 80s, but he's he said, I would have given anything.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, he was a doctor, and he said, I would have given anything to have that opportunity to be home with my kids in that way.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he said it was just never an option for 50 years of work.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Never an option.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_02: So from a male perspective, we we there may be some positives out of this horrible COVID crisis, which you you know, which may cultivate intimacy and trust and and and freedom in a different way.
• 32:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: My my hope is that it will, first of all, when there is no normal we're going back to, where we're in a new, we've opened a new book here, not not closing a chapter, we've opened a new book.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: And my hope is that the you know, the collective awakening and the call to action from both uh environmental all the way to a fam familiar point of view, like is that people listen to that.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_00: And we have an amazing opportunity to rewrite the script of how we want to live our lives now.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, businesses and corporate organizations are now the most flexible in terms of their working arrangement than they've ever been.
• 32:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I think you know, hope my hope is that you know, people, and particularly in this context right now, fathers, um are able to step into that so that they can you know support their family, which is honestly what I've found their main objective.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_00: They just want to be an amazing protector and supporter.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_02: And what can women do in this on this journey, you know, alongside obviously the man cave will be, I know that you know, predominantly it's men, obviously, that you're sending out um into schools and various organizations.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_02: What can women do to facilitate this new movement?
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or to because obviously we all care about our fathers, sons, brothers.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_02: What can we do?
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: I'm always that's a beautiful question.
• 33:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think um I'm I'm conscious of how much work women already do.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, adding the to the to-do list is um, you know, um Good point.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um but you know, I I think it's for guys, there's a transition from one way of being to a whole new way of being, which there's so much uncertainty around what it means to be a good man in 2021.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, the script men inherited, whether it's you know, the grand our grandfather's generation, our dad's, you know, our partners, is entirely different to what the next generation and now we're needing to create a society of equality.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think there's just um there's gonna be a shift, and shift means there's messiness, and it means that you know, sometimes they're gonna get it right, they're gonna be incredibly empathetic and kind and supportive and nurturing, and other times they might completely miss the mark and you know just go straight into fixing opposed to just listening.
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so an awareness that there is a shift taking place, but it's more than just a small shift, it's a it's an evolution of identity, and um, I think, yeah, uh guys, my experience of guys is they don't want to feel shamed or fixed or wrong.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's around how do we create the space for them to ask the messy questions and to be better.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so if there are pockets of where um yeah, I think women can can open up conversations or share what their life experience is like as a woman with a you know a part, a male partner who's willing to hear that, I think that makes a massive, massive difference.
• 35:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and also just like I'm just a big believer that women need to keep the foot to the pedal.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Like now is the time of the feminine.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's awesome.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I wouldn't want that to stop.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um and just know that men are men are in full support.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and also I suppose from what you're saying is just show tolerance that this is a massive shift.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's really what you're saying, too, is we're on a massive trajectory and we need to be aware that it's a it's a massive shift for everyone, but particularly for a lot of men.
• 35:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, no, that's very, very interesting.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: Anyway, just tell me briefly, I do want to talk to you briefly about stuff which you have also created, which I love the concept, um, which aligns with your vision.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_02: Can you talk to me a little bit about that, how it's operating and where it fits in?
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_00: So we Man Cave operates as a charity, uh, and part of that is we charge schools based on their socioeconomic status, and then we work with philanthropists and foundations and grants to support our work.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we'd run these amazing programs, and boys would kind of come in, you know, going, what is this program?
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: They'd walk out alive and free and expressive.
• 36:40
  SPEAKER_00: And um, we then would realize that they'd go back to a home environment where they'd just be on social media, being impacted by old school, super outdated, you know, misogynistic, hyper-sexualized marketing, so much stuff that we're just like familiar with.
• 36:54
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even register it now, but it just subtly influences um belief systems.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: And um just started to think what would it look like to create a new income stream for Man Cave?
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also what would it look like to create a product that aligns with the Man Cave's values?
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And just started to think when you know we were younger, what was central to our identity?
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: We were you know getting hairier, getting smellier.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: Lynx deodorant was uh the go-to.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Lynx app.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yes, and those that ad campaign was really, you know, that you've got someone like Lynx who's running, you know, the Dove Real Beauty, oh, sorry, Uniile, who Dove running like the beauty campaign, which is all like celebrating women all shapes and stuff.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_02: Awesome, yeah, yeah.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: At the same time running the Lynx campaign where you spray yourself and a flock of gorgeous women come chasing you.
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, it's it's just so 11, 12-year-old boys applying themselves to that, getting impacted by you know marketing like that.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: And so we just thought it was time to just disrupt that.
• 37:58
  SPEAKER_00: And so the model that we uh determined was we wanted to set up a new business and we wanted to be a personal care brand for guys that was purpose-driven.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: So we set up Mad Cave as a large shareholder in stuff, which is what we've called the personal care brand.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like stuff for your face, for your pits, for your body.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we didn't want it to be too woke or too virtue signaling or rely on the fact that it had a social purpose.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_00: It needed to be a really quality product that stood up in its own right.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then we just brought guys on the journey.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: And um, so stuff is, as I said, a separate business.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um sales from stuff support boys to go through the man cave.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I like that.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's the alignment, yeah.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, yeah.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um we use in all our kind of creative advertising and content, it's all man cave facilitators that they're getting uh to have a bit of fun with the content team.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_00: And yeah, the the goal for stuff is to support men as they navigate a new era of masculinity, and and how we do that is provide personal care products that they use in the most intimate times of their day, you know, when they're in the shower, in the bathroom, or just having a bit of solo time.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and yeah, we've really pulled together an amazing team to work on stuff.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: So the team of across worked across Mecca, ASOP, Country Road, Thank You, Swiss, T2, Afterpay.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so they're people who just want to make a difference and see what we're doing in the masculinity space as the next thing they want to get involved in.
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I think just the final reflection for both Man Cave and stuff is although we're working with boys, this is about boys having relationships and about serving their community.
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_00: And so for me, that's what I think is the biggest impact I can have on equality is supporting boys and men to come on the journey too.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I think that that what you are doing and the way you're doing it and the movement has certainly got great traction, and and I do think you are a great role model, actually, Hunter.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_02: If I actually think, and and I to your point, it is hard to actually, as you were saying that, I was thinking, who would I think of?
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, as a final note, would you um is there somebody that inspires you that other than your obviously your family, is there anybody that you see as a major mentor for your journey or that you feel is supporting this vision?
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, you mentioned brands, which is a good sign because that means they can see the benefit of this journey.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: For you, is there anybody that you know you feel is worth highlighting?
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I I get inspiration from a lot of different people, and I'm very fortunate to have people who just really support me too.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_00: So what I'd say, I just think right now, if I think about who are the people that are shaping Australia, it's largely incredible young women.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, whether as I already mentioned Grace Tame, I think El Contos, who's leading the petition on um consent education, I think of Holly Ransom, I think uh Yasmin Abdel Mageed.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's just like it's there are some phenomenal women coming through the ranks.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_00: Um and I think from you know, the from a male perspective, um it's probably the men that are just closest to me in my life.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: I think, you know, my my father, my stepfather, you know, the chair of the Man Cave board, um, you know, they they all just play such a role in encouraging me to back myself, which is yeah, I think the ultimate gift.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: I think the people who encourage me to trust myself more is good people to hang around with.
• 41:39
  SPEAKER_02: Well, I'm certainly glad that you are trusting yourself, Hunter.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I really am so grateful for you coming on the What I've Learned podcast.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: You're definitely an inspiration, and I think that while I know there is a long way to go, I think you are carving a very important path for our young boys and men.
• 41:57
  SPEAKER_02: And I thank you from all the women as well.
• 42:02
  SPEAKER_00: Absolute pleasure to hang out with you.
• 42:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Hunter.
• 42:06
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_00: My pleasure.
• 42:15
  SPEAKER_02: Thanks so much for listening.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: The What I've Learned podcast will now be coming to you weekly with new episodes released every Tuesday.
• 42:23
  SPEAKER_02: I'm blessed to have so many wonderful guests coming on the show.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_02: So check out my What I've Learned Instagram for updates.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_02: Meanwhile, stay tuned, kind, and curious.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_02: Love dear.