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Shari Davidson · Calm Under Fire

• Col John: Well, welcome back to Calm Under Fire. I'm Colonel John Boggs, and I'm the president of Fortitude Consulting. And Fortitude Consulting is an executive leadership development firm and executive coaching. Today we have with us Sherry Davidson. Now, Sherry advises managing partners, law firm leaders, and attorney groups through some of the most consequential decisions of their careers. As president of Onbalance Search Consultants, she works at the intersection of succession planning, partner transitions, mergers, and strategic growth, helping firms navigate change while preserving culture, client relationships, and long-term value. Her work is built on trust, discretion, and sound judgment, qualities that become even more important when the stakes are high. Today we're talking about leadership under pressure, especially when organizations and careers reach pivotal pivotal moments. Shari, welcome. Thank you so much for being here. Shari Davidson: Thank you for inviting me. I appreciate that. Col John: All right. Well, Sherry, first of all, I do love the New York accent. I'm a native Shari Davidson: Yeah. Col John: New Yorker, but I just love it. Okay, so can we just jump right in and get started? Perfect. Shari Davidson: Absolutely. Col John: Perfect. Now leadership often reveals itself during transitions. And you spent years advising leaders through some of the biggest decisions of their careers. When did you first realize that these weren't simply business decisions, but leadership decisions? Shari Davidson: Probably when my first conversations with an attorney, and as I'm talking to them, I was asking them whether they see themselves in three, five, ten years. I really want to know what they want at the end of the rainbow. And realizing that when somebody calls me and says I need a new job, as I say, I'm sorry, I'm not the recruiter for you, and I turn them away literally. If they're looking to advance their career and leverage what they have that's who I am and I work with the managing partners and ask them what they're looking for. When they call me and say I need a three to five year ex corporate attorney or whatever, why do you need that person? What is this person going to do for you? And if Col John: Hmm. Shari Davidson: they can't answer that, I also have to step away. Because if they're just looking for bodies, then they're not looking for growth. And if they're looking just because they have a project then they should go to you know, I used to sell temp, so I get a little confused on this, but contract attorney. And by the way, contract attorney is used differently in law firms. So I don't want to confuse the conversation, but they should go to a temp agency and get somebody to do the project for them. Col John: Mm-hmm. So y you're all about bringing in potential you're bringing in a person that's gonna help grow the organization. Shari Davidson: Grow the organization, I actually recruit for life. Most of my candidates, since I've started doing this, are still in the firms that I brought them to. It's because I really like to get to know who the person is and who the client is. And I first look at their skill set as well as their personality, align that, because you could always learn something. You always pick up a book if you're smart enough and learn something and apply it. But your personality is very hard to change. Col John: That's true. That's true. Personality's hard to change. So Looking at your experiences. What most shaped your approach to leadership? Shari Davidson: My approach started at a very early age. I want to say maybe even three or four years old. I know that sounds really ridiculous considering how old I am right now. I was one of four siblings, 11, 10, and 7 years apart from me. So my voice was never heard. I was still the baby in the family. I was the baby gotta lover. You know, and because I was considered the baby, even to this day, I'm still considered the baby. It's like they don't realize I'm real person and I have experiences to share. So Col John: Uh-huh. Shari Davidson: being that, I learned to observe and listen and ask really good questions. So I became like an observer. and really watching how people interacted with each other, how they spoke to each other. And through the years that has really served me well. I matter of fact, I've had a client candidate, whatever you you know, everybody's a client to me, say, Sherry, I cannot believe how you can read a room. And it's because I don't need to be the loudest voice in the room. I do not need to be the one who's always talking. I rather other people talk. So this is comfortable for me by the way. This is breaking me out of my comfort zone. Col John: Good. Good. I I love it. I love it. Some of the hardest decisions that leaders make are the ones that no one else ever sees. You've Shari Davidson: is true. Col John: been part of countless confidential conversations, and without revealing any details, please. What have those kinds of conversations taught you about what leaders worry about most? Shari Davidson: Okay, believe it or not, it's not money. Everybody thinks, it's this it's compensation, it's money, it's this and that. Now, they're really concerned about their partners and what they think. They're concerned about their clients and where they're going and what they're doing. They're concerned about What happens if they're not in the firm anymore? What happens to their clients? What happens to their associates? What happens to the the people that they're mentoring? That's what keeps most of my good clients up at night. Col John: Well, some of the some of the most important decisions leaders make are the opportunities they choose not to pursue. Shari Davidson: Yes, saying no is the most important thing. And actually I'd rather somebody say to me, I'm not interested in that now, and this is why. Not because I'm not interested. It's because they're focused on their goals. And listen, I taught for Dale Carnegie I and and sold their project programs as well as Franklin Covey. People are not they they don't want to put their goals down. They're so scared. They've write their goals down on paper that they have to live up to it. That's just a roadmap and I consider myself a GPS system. So many times I will say to people, I want you to imagine you're in a nineteen sixties Little Red Corvette convertible. Yeah, I love that car, it's my favorite. And w as we're driving and if you remember New York and remember Coney Island and all the the little side It's Ocean Parkway, I'm actually thinking of. That's my Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: favorite place for driving. So when I explain this, I always say pick the road that you want, pick even the car you want, I don't care. But it can't have a GPS system in it. Because I'm sitting in the passenger seat and you're sitting in the driver's seat, and you're telling me where you want to go, and I'm looking at a paper map. I don't know if anybody knows what that is anymore. And I'm actually telling you to make a right or a left or stay where you are. And I've told people, don't make a move now. I'm probably one of the few recruiters that will tell somebody, no, you're not ready to make a move now. You need to do X, Y, Z before you do. Get all your ducts in line. So I am really that GPS system driving in that little red car, taking it down the road and telling you to go right, left to stay where you are. Col John: How does that work out? Shari Davidson: out extremely well because I build trust. You know that that is the main thing about leadership in my opinion is trust and clarity and being brave enough to say you just don't know. You know I I always say bring me a question. If I don't know it, I'm not gonna make it up. Bring me the question and I will find from my trusted advisors the answer for you. So I believe a really good leader surrounds themselves with great people around them to help their clients or whoever they're working with pull them up. Col John: And and that's that's what you do. You're you're trying to provide organizations with great with great people, great people with the potential. So w what are you looking for when you when you're going to bring someone to an office? W what are you looking for? Shari Davidson: Okay, so let's just make like a little case study. Let's say, actually I had a franchise attorney, I'll let me use his background. He needed he had five people working for him. Most of them were paralegals, but there was one associate. And he needed a national presence. He was on the island. He did not want to go into the city. he wanted to continue working on the island, but a regional firm really wasn't going to give him what he needed. He needed offices in California, Chicago, Texas, Miami, and Long and New York. And he needed practice areas, certain practice areas that he needed. He needed real estate, somebody like a McDonald's needed to open up a new building and put it on, real estate, labor and employment, intellectual property, as well as corporate. And there might be one or two other practice areas he might have needed. And I went and found like four or five firms that met his criteria. And then I introduced him to those firms. And those f and he had four different options to go and figure out where he wanted to go. Because he had the options. He knew what he wanted and he knew how he needed to leverage it for his clients. So he had clarity. So if you have clarity and you know exactly what you want and where you want to build it, that's the best client candidate that I can help. Somebody like I don't know. I'm just watching John Hamm's new T V show. I think it's on Netflix or Apple. Family Friend I don't even remember the name. But it was interesting. He did the first episode, my husband's 'cause I just wrote a r white paper on this and he said, my God, he's in your white paper I said, What are you talking about? He was just going with the flow and then all of a sudden everything fell apart on him. You know, and it was kinda interesting because that happens to a lot of us. There's so many attorneys that are just sitting and working day after day after day, just grinding out the work, and not really looking to the right or the left and seeing what's happening out in the world or even what's happening with their own business. And then all of a sudden a trigger event happens and then what? Everything changes. Col John: Everything changes, yeah. my. Shari Davidson: Yeah. So I try to give solutions before there's a problem. Col John: Okay. Okay. Shari Davidson: Being proactive. Col John: Well, w when you're working with people on those on being proactive, let's let's talk a little bit about succession planning and conversations. How do you have those conversations? What leadership behaviors matter most when you're trying to get someone to plan? Hey, you know, you're not gonna you're not gonna be running the firm forever. you're gonna turn this Shari Davidson: Yeah. Col John: over. Shari Davidson: Believe it or not, attorneys will there there's actually US Census and an article was written earlier in the year that it's a third profession that people actually work well into their eighties. And I do a lot of st sponsorships Col John: Well. Shari Davidson: of C L E's and I've seen it firsthand. They come in with walkers, wheelchairs, I mean they look like they shouldn't be working at all. And they're coming into my C L E's. They're still there. Col John: my gosh. Shari Davidson: So they they enjoy doing it. But going back to your original question. Succession planning is not when somebody announces I'm going to retire. It is a leadership habit. What do we do if I'm not here? And I'm gonna give an example of one of my clients that and he's been doing this for at least twenty some odd years because I've known him for that long. He always brings an associate with him to every meeting he goes to. Now, if you walk in and you see two attorneys walk into your office, you might freak out saying, my god, I'm being built for two different attorneys. And he says, take a breath, Billing built one, but you're getting two of us. And the reason why he does that is he builds up the information, gets all the information, and the associate sitting next to him knows everything about that file. So now when he's out playing golf or taking a vacation, think of only good things while he's not in the office. And they call the information's there and the person feels comfortable sharing with the associate what's going on in their office so they can take care of Col John: how smart is that? Shari Davidson: things. So leadership mentors people but also gives them the opportunity to become a leader themselves. That's what Col John: Wow. Shari Davidson: true leadership is. Fortunately there's not many of those attorneys or people like that because they they micromanage or what did they call it? Helicopter moms or hel you know you know, they Col John: Yeah, helicopter moms and Shari Davidson: they're always watching over and the individual never really learns how to make a decision themselves. But a true leader will mentor somebody and bring them and not fear that you're gonna see my client and I'm gonna lose the client. That's another piece of it. Col John: Wow. Wow. Shari Davidson: Yeah. Col John: Wow. So that must happen. That must happen to people who are worried about it. Really. Shari Davidson: It hap it it happens a lot. Especially as smaller firms, you know, you have the the blank and associates. Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: The paint doesn't it the paint is getting from white to grey. The w the floor is becoming a hole in the ground because people are walking on it. And for ten, fifteen years people are sitting in the and and like everybody they're working with, but they look to the right or the left and they say, What's happening? He's going to Greece for a month. I'm holding down the fort. The attor the clients are not no longer talking to the Rainmaker, they're just talking to the attorney the attorney that's holding down the fort. And the attorney that's holding there on the fort gets concerned, like, what's gonna happen if golf a bit something happens to him? That's the critical piece of it and that's when I see a lot of senior attorneys built something up that's beautiful and now all of a sudden it walks out the door with the younger attorneys. Because the younger attorneys may say to me, I can't say this is my book of business, but I know they're gonna follow me. And they do. Col John: Ooh ouch ouch. Shari Davidson: Yeah. So it's really best for the senior attorney to invest in their younger attorneys, trust them, and when it's time to make a move, they all move together. So the senior Col John: Mm. Shari Davidson: attorney can actually get something at the end of the rainbow plus take care of their clients going forward. Col John: Wow. Invest, invest in them. Shari Davidson: especially today, you know, with AI and everything that's going on with that, you know, Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: AI is not going to replace the attorney. I do see another piece of Leadership that's concerning to me that I'll bring up which Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: you might find interesting. People say, well, I don't need that three to five year attorney anymore. I can put it through AI and they can spit out the information I need. But if you don't train the young attorneys how to react or interact with clients, build a business. three to five years all of sudden you might not have that candidate coming in and doing that work for you, but now all of a sudden you don't have the clients either. So you need to train them probably to do more business development than they've been trained in the past. Col John: Wow. So w w so what is the tendency? Is the tendency to look for people to just walk in the door? Shari Davidson: I always get what kind of attorneys do you have? Like they think they're sitting under my desk, like I'm pulling out a pair of shoes. You know, try these on if they fit you. They always want that three to five year attorney and actually before COVID was and even before that it was starting to become the eight to ten year attorney because before COVID we had that recession in two thousand and eight, two thousand and nine and we have that perfect storm that we didn't have qualified individuals to do the three to five year because they weren't trained, they weren't hired. And then COVID happened. They were still hiring people from COVID and maybe paying extraordinary dollars to sit in their off you know, their bedrooms and work or whatever. But they still weren't being trained to be professional with clients and actually talking to people and reaching out. things. So now all of a sudden that th you know, you just ask for a three to five year person just to come in because they have so much business, which is great. But I always like to know, tell me about the business. Explain it to me. What type of matters are you working on? You don't have to tell me the clients. You don't have to t but you gotta get it exciting so when I bring in somebody young saying you're gonna learn how to do XYZ This is you're gonna be mentored to learn how to do this and mentor it in how to deal with these types of situations. So I think that's the concern about AI and myself with the next generation of attorneys. Col John: Yeah, wow. Wow. And in my work And working with a lot of senior executives, I I've had a number of them start talk telling me how AI is going to replace and it's going to get rid of people. And I I smile and and I ask the question, what's the business case for this? Shari Davidson: Good question. It's like okay, Col John: What's the business case? Shari Davidson: like radio was gonna kill us all, T V forget it. Then, you know, when I started thirty some odd years ago in replacement, we had newspapers. We used to open up the newspaper on Sunday to find out what jobs were available. And then Career Builder and all these other and indeed and and they all came on and said, it's gonna replace No, nothing replaces relationships. Col John: very good. Nothing replaces relationships. I agree. Holy smokes. Shari Davidson: And and people and and and lawyers are interesting because they're taught about risk mitigation from day one in their classes. Sometimes they can't even look to the right or the left because they only know one way and that's forward. They're like bulldozers. And unfortunately there have been Some jokes like how do you ruin a deal, bring an attorney in or whatever. I mean, believe me, there Col John: Uh-huh. Shari Davidson: is a place for attorneys, but they're always risk mitigating. You know, they're concerned about, my god, this and that. And that's what creates sometimes for them decision debacle. They can't make a decision even about their own careers because they're so caught up with the risk. Should I make a move? Should I not make a move? Should I just say? Should I I mean it's it's crazy. Col John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: Which brings me back to my favorite quote. And I used this on my daughter when she was growing up. No decision is a decision. Col John: No decision is a decision. my. Yeah. Yeah. Shari Davidson: You know. You know, if you're gonna go just like John Hamm went through the you know, w he just kept going and doing and buying houses and growing and kept going and he realized that's not what he really wanted in his life. So these are the things, you know, you gotta really take a step back. Col John: Yeah. Well you know, Sherry, the the legal profession continues to evolve. So if if you were advising the next generation of managing partners, what would you encourage them to start doing now that will matter for them ten years from now? Shari Davidson: Stay extremely curious. Col John: Stay curious. Shari Davidson: Stay curious. Keep learning. Keep training yourself to have better skills in communication. Be humble. Reach out to people that can help you. Keep them in your side pocket. So you when you have a situation you could talk to. What I've one thing I've noticed through the twenty, thirty years I've been doing this, attorneys are very lonely at the top. They really have no one to talk to. And I am now part of a national group that we are putting together round tables for attorneys and managing partners to be able to speak freely and share what's working, what's not working, but they're not feeling like they're going to s anybody's gonna steal their clients in the room. So we we're creating a s very safe environment. So if anybody's interested in that, I'd be more than happy to get them involved with that. But that's one of the things is being able to have a mastermind group that they can say what they need. talk about even you know, they don't have to tell us the names of anything, but this is my situation and come up with an idea on how to fix it. I look for solutions. I'm not one of these people that want to hang out and just look at problems all day long. Col John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Look for solutions. So the qualities then that you're looking for is being humble. being humble, be a skilled communicator. I love that one. that it's what I have found, not in not in the legal world, I'm not in that. And and my clients aren't lawyers, but what I have found is that your ability to communicate. Is it's It is so it is so over the top important. It's it's crazy. Shari Davidson: I'm gonna give you a little secret. I hate to write. My husband and when I joke around about this. He was an an appraiser and one of the top appraisers for the tri state area. And he was writing briefs that as long as many of the attorneys and he was an expert witness, I hate writing. But I had to up my game in writing. I had to up my game in speaking. You know, if you don't like to get in front of people, take a Dale Carnegie course. get Col John: Mm. Shari Davidson: You know, get involved. Start doing it even if you're not in your comfort zone. As I said, I don't like ever being say it's that's not that's me. But I do also know it's important. So you you just gotta get out of your comfort zone and start investing in yourself. Do not wait for the law firm, the corporation to invest in you. They're not going to. You've got to invest in yourself. Col John: my gosh, yes. Wow. Okay, this is after as you reflect on your career, this is wonderful. I mean, these are I've got Shari Davidson: Okay. Okay. Col John: some great notes here. As you reflect on your career, after years of walking beside leaders and lawyers and and and these people are in there helping people make big decisions, they're making big decisions themselves, Shari Davidson: Mm-hmm. Col John: and career decisions. What what have you What have you come to believe about leadership itself? Shari Davidson: I'm gonna go back to what I was saying. They gotta be adaptable, have to be c excellent communicators, they really need to know how to influence. And when I say influence, I'm not saying manipulate. And I'm saying to do things that are not ethical. You need to be able to get everybody on the same page and walking in this in a straight line. You can't corral cats if everybody's going in different directions. And that will create a culture. So if everybody's going in a straight line and everybody Everybody knows where they're going, that's the ship that's going to be steered. And that's the stronger of all the attorney of the law firms that I've seen is the leadership. Is everybody knows what's happening and where they're going. And and being adaptable. One of the other things that I forgot to answer or put in there is besides communication skills, you really gotta k keep up with the trends. All right, law firms and a lot of law firms are still doing what they did a hundred years ago. Literally. Col John: Wow. Shari Davidson: I mean they have the step block Compensation. The reason why Kravath brought that to I believe it was Kravath. Why they brought that is because they didn't want one jumping from one law from to another for money. So if everybody is making you know the fifth year, everybody across the board is making $150,000. I know that's very low. Like $450,000 or whatever it may be. I don't I like working with entrepreneurs, so I don't always work in the AM law. But that's why they created that. then they have the institutional people, you know. clients. So everybody is working the same way they they used to work 2200 hours a year working but now law firms some of the even the younger attorneys saying I don't want to build 2200 hours a year anymore. So they're like jumping ship to go to something called the virtual law firm or distributive law firm which is another name. It's basically a law firm without walls. Okay, it's not saying that we're gonna pay for some of them do have offices, some don't, but they're not putting in mahogany walls and and bookcases and and marble floors to show the new clients coming in that they have they've been successful. They're more concerned about the work product and taking care of the client. So there is definitely a place for that type of law. Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: And what's really nice about that type of new lure that's coming out is that it's like a long hallway of networking. So if I am a franchise attorney or a real estate attorney and I need somebody to do corporate paperwork, I could reach out to that whole network and say, I need somebody to do the corporate documents to me. So they're not handling that. They're handling what they do best and they're getting somebody else. And everybody is taking part of it. So the attorneys are making more and billing less and the clients are getting the satisfaction that they're looking for. So that's one thing. But there are a lot of attorneys that still like the brick and mortar, walk in and say hello to Sally in the morning when you walk in or Dick, whoever may be at the front desk. at the quarter court talking about the John Hamm movie that can't remember the title or whatever. But you're having those come out, you know, those are the things that make us it's it's all about relationships and Col John: Huh? Yes, yes. Shari Davidson: trusting those relationships and working with people. So Col John: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: but even the traditional war firm has to think out of the box, do things differently. Col John: Okay. When when the pressure when pressure gets to a lawyer and it gets very real, what what should they I imagine I imagine they can feel it all the time. What do they need to remember most when the pressure starts going up? Shari Davidson: depends on what the pressure is so but just talking generally I always tell you say take a step back, take a breath. Take a moment. Because I that's what I do for myself. And I can't Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: I don't try to tell people to do things that I don't do for myself. and I do believe in journaling as well. Sometimes I say, you know what, I want you to write everything that's good that you did this week. Focus we have a tendency as a as a culture to focus on the negative. You need to focus on the positive and what you did. And there For me I call it a deal autopsy. But there are ways of looking at your week and and doing an autopsy. What did I do good? What could I have done better? And why sh should I never do again? You know? Type of thing. And let Col John: Ha ha ha ha. Shari Davidson: yourself know that. You we're human. You gotta learn and you gotta reflect to learn. If you just keep going through the motions, you're never gonna learn and never go forward. Col John: Wow. Excellent. Excellent. Wow. Well, Sherry, thank you very much. This this has been absolutely superb. Thank you. So for for law firm leaders Shari Davidson: Thank you. Col John: and people and law firms in general, actually people who are navigating and and and they need to learn about strategic growth or mergers or significant leadership transitions. There, how do how do they reach you? How does a lawyer reach out to you? Are they they want your services? How do they do that? Well, first of all, can you tell us can can you tell Shari Davidson: Please call me, I pick up the phone. Col John: us a little bit about your company and and what you do and then how to reach you? Shari Davidson: Okay. The reason why it's called on balance, it's really about a lifetime. It's an on b it's it's a it's your life. No one wakes up and says I sh you know, or on their deathbed and said I should have spent five more hours in the office. I might be one of the few that will say that. But most people are not gonna say that they shouldn't have spent more time with their grandchildren, should have been out on the boat, on the golf course, whatever. So you've got to figure out what's important to you. right. Once you figure that out, give me a call. And you can either call me. I'm on LinkedIn. I'm gonna tell you my LinkedIn profile, my Sherry Davidson profile on balance search, because I think there's several Sherry Davidson's out there, is really probably the strongest place for you to find out who I am. I don't keep up my website as much. Who could fight with the SEOs of all the bigger law firms and Recruiters that have like 50 people working. I'm a solo, but I have a network that is beyond. So probably LinkedIn's the best place, but you also, my website, yes, it's still on hopefully by the end of the year I will update that as well. But it does talk about even the Queen instance accession planning. So it does have certain things, but it's not as strong. Like right now, MSOs are very big. Have you heard of those? Col John: No, I haven't. Shari Davidson: Arizona is getting into private equity and Col John: Mm-hmm. Shari Davidson: more of the MSOs and things like that with law firms. These are trends, and I've been following them for 20 years, and no one was talking about them when I knew it was happening. So now I am immersed with different private equity, different MSOs, which is basically management service providers. They take over your back office, but you can still own it. And there's several different types. That's another conversation. For a different time. But get to know. Maybe you just don't like doing the administrative work, but you love doing lure and you love being in front of your clients. So hand that off to somebody else. So you could do what you enjoy that wakes up. When you wake up on Monday morning, you're not dreading going into the office. Life is short. Col John: Wonderful. Life is short. Life is short. Wow. Sherry. Shari Davidson: Definitely link l LinkedIn's the best place probably to reach out to me. But if you do call me, I do answer my phone. If you get a voicemail, please don't hang up. I have an antiquated old AT and T phone. It's from nineteen eighty eight. It still works better than any other phone I've ever had. I keep trying to switch out. but at the same token it goes into voicemail and if you you don't leave a message, how do I know you called? I love when people argue. I called you. They really? I didn't get a message. Col John: Okay. And what number should they call you at? Shari Davidson: 516-731-3400 and they can call night, day, weekends, I don't care. Leave a message if I'm not available. And if I am available, don't be surprised if I'm sitting at my desk at three in the morning picking up that phone call. Col John: My three in the morning, that's too l that's too late. That's too early. That's too early. Shari Davidson: too early. But you know what? I've I've worked with people in China as well as you know Dubai. So sometimes I am sitting at my desk talking to people around the world, so you never know. Col John: Wow. Yeah, then yeah, then three o'clock is about right. Yep. Okay. Well Sherry, thank you very much. Thank you very much. And to those who are listening, hey, particularly our our lawyers out there, hey, reach out to Sherry and the whole MSO thing just sounds very interesting. And that that's the truth. You don't wanna you don't wanna look at your life and stop and say, What have I done? And you know, how did they all grow up so fast? That old Cat Stevens song, but now I'm gonna show my age. But Shari Davidson: Exactly. Yes. Col John: at any rate, you can find Sherry on LinkedIn. you can on balance is the name of her company. You can find her website out there, and her phone number is five one six seven three one three four zero zero. And she does answer her phone. And please leave a message if you if you don't get her, just leave the message. All right. Shari Davidson: Please do. Okay. Col John: Sherry, again, thank you very much. This was wonderful. You were spectacular. And for those of you who are out there and listening, hey, leadership is too important to get wrong, folks. So and particularly if you're in the legal field, reach out to Sherry and get some help. All right, folks, that's it for this week. We'll talk to you later. Out here.