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Leading Through Growth: Women Founders in Environmental Consulting · Business Roundtable

• 0:32
  Speaker 1: All right, welcome back to the Business round Table podcast.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: I am super excited I've got two amazing guests on
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: the podcast that I've had the opportunity to work with
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: both of them over many, many years, and really excited
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: to have both Angelo Dapoli and Geraldine Aaron here, women
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: that have made just a mark in the environmental consulting
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: space that I've spent most of my career, and just
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: excited to have them both share about their journeys as
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: women business owners and working in the environmental consulting space
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: and just sharing a wealth of knowledge. So on behalf
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: of the Business round People audience. I want to welcome
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: you Angela and Geraldine. Thank you so much for joining
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: me on the podcast.
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: Absolutely thanks David.
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: Absolutely so.
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  Speaker 1: I will say, actually I got to meet Geraldine first
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: before I met Angela. Even though Angela and I worked
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: at a previous company together, we just our times kind
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: of missed each other. And then I worked with Geraldine
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: not at the same company. Actually, Geraldine, we worked with
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: you at your company, Paleo Solutions, at the time that
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: you had founded years ago, and I would love to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: you to start with you, Gerdine, just a little bit
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: about your background, what you've done, and you're kind of
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: as a business owner a little bit about your your company,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: you're working in the environmental space. Just so our audience
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: gets to know a little bit more about you.
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: Thanks David.
• 1:54
  Speaker 5: Yeah, it's been quite a history with you. Yeah, my
• 2:01
  Speaker 5: history with Angela is much more recent, but probably a
• 2:04
  Speaker 5: good thing.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: And it's so cool to hear you guys compare notes. Yeah,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: that's why I want to have you both on the podcast. Absolutely.
• 2:12
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 5: So I founded Paleo Solutions in two thousand and four,
• 2:18
  Speaker 5: and I used to work for a small company in
• 2:21
  Speaker 5: Orange County.
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  Speaker 4: That was bought by a middle sized company.
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  Speaker 5: And the writing was kind of on the wall from
• 2:28
  Speaker 5: the management that they had brought in initially where a
• 2:32
  Speaker 5: friend of mine at we both started Paylo Solutions, Scott
• 2:37
  Speaker 5: Armstrong and myself, but we kind of saw the writing
• 2:41
  Speaker 5: on the wall where our clients weren't showing up to meetings.
• 2:44
  Speaker 5: I mean, our new management bought us was not shown
• 2:48
  Speaker 5: up to meetings and we're just like God, that doesn't
• 2:50
  Speaker 5: seem good for business. And before they bought the small
• 2:55
  Speaker 5: company we had worked for, it was not Paleo.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: I don't know few remember them, but they had.
• 3:02
  Speaker 5: Offered us to buy their company before they actually sold
• 3:06
  Speaker 5: it to all the employees and just the people that
• 3:10
  Speaker 5: were at the table, it just wasn't going to work out.
• 3:12
  Speaker 4: So it kind of planted the seed for Scott and
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: I like, oh, you know what, maybe we can do
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: this on our own.
• 3:18
  Speaker 5: And when we saw how poor management was kind of
• 3:21
  Speaker 5: standing up our best clients, it just felt like natural
• 3:24
  Speaker 5: to kind of maybe take a step forward. I was
• 3:28
  Speaker 5: actually terminated from that middle sized company because they said
• 3:31
  Speaker 5: I wasn't doing my job, but I can guarantee that
• 3:34
  Speaker 5: wasn't true. But it was the best thing that happened
• 3:38
  Speaker 5: to me because it really pushed envelope for Scott and
• 3:41
  Speaker 5: I to put a business to plan together and kind
• 3:44
  Speaker 5: of get the funding to start Pailta Solutions.
• 3:46
  Speaker 2: And so.
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  Speaker 5: You know, I did transition Scott out as a business
• 3:51
  Speaker 5: partner and then eventually Paul Murphy, and then we had
• 3:54
  Speaker 5: a brief stamp with somebody else as a partner for
• 3:56
  Speaker 5: about eight months that didn't work out, but so there
• 3:58
  Speaker 5: was little history their pure and our partners. But but
• 4:03
  Speaker 5: I did manage Palao Solutions for seventeen years and it
• 4:07
  Speaker 5: took me and then sold it to Stantech, and it
• 4:11
  Speaker 5: took me about two years to transition the company, and
• 4:16
  Speaker 5: I had a contract to stay on with stan Tech
• 4:18
  Speaker 5: for two years with an option to stay employed afterwards,
• 4:22
  Speaker 5: and I wanted.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: To take a sabbatical to see what the next steps were,
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: and so far I'm still on my long term sabbatical.
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  Speaker 5: I decided to actually get off their Carol last year
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  Speaker 5: after my first year of sabbatical and kind of stay retired.
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  Speaker 4: So so, I.
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  Speaker 5: Was mainly a mitigation paleontologist and we started off only
• 4:46
  Speaker 5: providing paleontology and then eventually added cultural resources. We started
• 4:52
  Speaker 5: out with three people, myself, Scott and Angela. Knows Maria
• 4:56
  Speaker 5: Espinoza's she was my first employee of Payoss Solutions. Stayed
• 5:03
  Speaker 5: with us really until we sold the business. So I
• 5:08
  Speaker 5: so my back. I have about twenty five years of
• 5:12
  Speaker 5: experience in mitigation, paleontology and the environmental consulting world. And
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  Speaker 5: I took the company from about three people to sixty employees,
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  Speaker 5: although we lost quite a few employees during the acquisition,
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  Speaker 5: which as as I learned, is quite normal.
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  Speaker 1: Can't take it perfectly, no, No, We've had other guests
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: in the past to talk about mergers and acquisitions and
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: things like that, and maybe, well we've been touched a
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: little bit more about that on the podcast. I could
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: be probably a whole episode and of itself.
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  Speaker 5: Yeah, And I think as we probably get more into
• 5:46
  Speaker 5: this conversation.
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  Speaker 4: Certainly, as I got more.
• 5:49
  Speaker 5: Into running the business, I moved farther away from probably
• 5:52
  Speaker 5: the hands on work that I really enjoyed in paletology,
• 5:55
  Speaker 5: so kind of you know, end up doing a lot
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  Speaker 5: more admin and project management and hr all the all
• 6:03
  Speaker 5: the stuff I did not go to school for.
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, absolutely no, I definitely want to get more
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: into that and understand that.
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: So I mean, so you you you came.
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: From working as an employee, Geraldine to the point where
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: you're like, no, I can step out on my own.
• 6:19
  Speaker 3: I could give this a go and create something.
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  Speaker 1: And I think why I like having folks like yourself
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: and Angela on here is that people can know that
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: there's a journey here. I was just you know, stepping
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: out and trying new things and learning it along the way,
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  Speaker 1: and we make mistakes and how do we we you know,
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  Speaker 1: it's a journey and it's not you know, say a destination.
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  Speaker 1: It's just a way of going in a way of
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: living and and you know, creating the life that you
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: you know as best you can. And it sounds to
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: me like you've created a pretty good life for yourself.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: You've navigated ups and downs and creating the space now
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: where you run a successful company and now in sabbatical
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: and deciding what's my next you know, adventure in life?
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: You know, I'd say just living life.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: There you go, that's an adventure right there, especially in
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: our agent daytime, you know, we find ourselves in here.
• 7:07
  Speaker 5: Yeah, no, absolutely, I mean my next I probably I
• 7:10
  Speaker 5: just connected with somebody local and then this part of
• 7:15
  Speaker 5: the Central organ Geology group, So I'll probably do start
• 7:18
  Speaker 5: doing some outreaching and you know, go to schools and
• 7:22
  Speaker 5: things like.
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  Speaker 4: That to make sure gets interested in science.
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: That's really important, absolutely super super important. So Angela, how
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: about you. I wanted you to share a little about
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: your journey too. We've kind of got Geraldine's journey from
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: being an employee and starting Paleo Solutions for seventeen plus
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: years and going in that transition, and we'll get we're
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: gonna get more details in there, but just for the
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: backstory for folks that want to know a little about
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: your journey, and how you came to found bargas and
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: where you and I intersected.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh absolutely, so.
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  Speaker 6: I well, my degrees in soil science, and so when
• 8:01
  Speaker 6: I first went to school, I just assumed that I
• 8:04
  Speaker 6: was going to end up in some you know, either
• 8:07
  Speaker 6: the USDA or you know, I assumed it was going
• 8:10
  Speaker 6: to be a federal position. And then when I went
• 8:13
  Speaker 6: to get my master's degree, that's when I had they
• 8:17
  Speaker 6: had just come out with stormwater pollution prevention plans. Nobody
• 8:20
  Speaker 6: one knew what a SWIP was, and so I was
• 8:22
  Speaker 6: doing a study for the state of California as far
• 8:24
  Speaker 6: as my master's thesis, and then the funding got cut
• 8:28
  Speaker 6: and Google had just come out.
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  Speaker 2: Really so I remember googling SWIP and job, and.
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  Speaker 6: It came an ad for a consulting firm where we
• 8:39
  Speaker 6: had worked, David and and they couldn't believe that they
• 8:42
  Speaker 6: found somebody that knew what those were.
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  Speaker 2: And I couldn't believe I found a job.
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  Speaker 6: My parents couldn't believe I found a job also, and
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  Speaker 6: so that was when that's when I found out about consulting,
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  Speaker 6: and and I really enjoyed it.
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  Speaker 2: You know, it was it was a bit different.
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  Speaker 6: They were mostly a bio biology firm, so so getting
• 9:00
  Speaker 6: into stormwater was was new for them, and they were
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  Speaker 6: just building the department. And so what I really liked
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  Speaker 6: is that my supervisor at the time was a you know,
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  Speaker 6: she was a woman, had a great you know background,
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  Speaker 6: a lot of business sense. So she had come from owning,
• 9:18
  Speaker 6: uh her parents had owned a business growing up, and
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  Speaker 6: so she had a huge entrepreneurial spirit that I hadn't
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  Speaker 6: seen before, and so it was fascinating to watch her
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  Speaker 6: grow a department and kind of and do that piece.
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  Speaker 6: And so my time there, it was it was great
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  Speaker 6: and I really enjoyed it. But I also then got
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  Speaker 6: an opportunity to start doing more project management while I
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  Speaker 6: was there, so I got out of doing just stormwater plans,
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  Speaker 6: and then I really enjoyed the project management.
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  Speaker 2: So I liked all of the negotiating.
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  Speaker 6: I liked trying to get you know, both agencies at
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  Speaker 6: the table and the project proponents and bringing in all
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  Speaker 6: the different disciplines, you know, from the biology and the
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  Speaker 6: cultural and you know, all the other pieces is that
• 10:00
  Speaker 6: they came into play. And so then that was really
• 10:04
  Speaker 6: the direction I had went. And then that was right
• 10:06
  Speaker 6: around two thousand and seven, in two thousand and eight,
• 10:10
  Speaker 6: and so we started seeing things shifting a bit. And
• 10:14
  Speaker 6: I was leaving a meeting one day and with the
• 10:16
  Speaker 6: Army Corps, and that's when somebody approached me and.
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  Speaker 2: From the Corps and said, hey, have you ever thought
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  Speaker 2: about working here? And I hadn't.
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  Speaker 6: I you know, had never really had given it a
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  Speaker 6: lot of thought. And then my colleague that I had
• 10:29
  Speaker 6: worked with, you know, she kind of mentioned, you know,
• 10:31
  Speaker 6: if you maybe worked at the Corps, maybe you did
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  Speaker 6: that for a couple of years and we could start
• 10:35
  Speaker 6: our own thing when you got out.
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  Speaker 2: And I was like seeing seed and I hadn't really
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: thought about that.
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  Speaker 6: And my experience at the firm that we were at
• 10:45
  Speaker 6: was I saw a lot of great women that were
• 10:48
  Speaker 6: never brought up into their leadership positions, so they had,
• 10:53
  Speaker 6: you know, they weren't given the same bonuses, they weren't
• 10:55
  Speaker 6: given the same opportunities. And so that's what really led
• 10:58
  Speaker 6: to our conversation. And then I honestly just got lucky.
• 11:01
  Speaker 6: I was leaving right around that, you know, the big
• 11:03
  Speaker 6: crash and huge changes in the development world, and ended
• 11:07
  Speaker 6: up in the Parmy Corps and worked in regulatory for a
• 11:10
  Speaker 6: couple of years and then went into civil works and
• 11:13
  Speaker 6: that's when I really got into project management and and
• 11:18
  Speaker 6: and then I you know, less like Darrell Lene. Then
• 11:22
  Speaker 6: I did not have this real big push to.
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: Maybe start my own firm.
• 11:25
  Speaker 6: I started getting calls from developers that I'd worked with
• 11:28
  Speaker 6: when I left Regulatory and they said, hey, could.
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: You do a wetland delineation? Could you do some for
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: war permitting?
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  Speaker 6: And when I went to office a council at the Core,
• 11:37
  Speaker 6: they approved it and said, yeah, you're not in that
• 11:40
  Speaker 6: department anymore.
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  Speaker 2: So I thought it was like a side hustle.
• 11:42
  Speaker 6: I thought it would be this like extra And then
• 11:45
  Speaker 6: a year later I realized I had two jobs and
• 11:48
  Speaker 6: was you know, working ninety hours a week and couldn't
• 11:50
  Speaker 6: keep up. And so then that's when I left my
• 11:53
  Speaker 6: position at the Core and decided to give bargus to
• 11:57
  Speaker 6: go and and and then that was and you know,
• 12:01
  Speaker 6: there was a lot of fear, I know in my family.
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  Speaker 6: I mean they were not a proponent of it at all.
• 12:06
  Speaker 6: They were kind of like, you know, you have a
• 12:08
  Speaker 6: great government job, why would you do that? And then
• 12:10
  Speaker 6: I went, well, I know I'm employable, so it doesn't work.
• 12:15
  Speaker 6: And so you know here I am thirteen years later
• 12:19
  Speaker 6: and it's still it's still working, So you know, those
• 12:22
  Speaker 6: are the things and so yeah, but I think then
• 12:25
  Speaker 6: there's a lot you know, back to you touched on it, David,
• 12:28
  Speaker 6: not knowing and moluntarily and you touched on too. Like
• 12:31
  Speaker 6: you go to school and you learn these disciplines and
• 12:34
  Speaker 6: you know that really well, but business side is not taught.
• 12:38
  Speaker 6: I mean, you know, I don't have an MBA. I
• 12:40
  Speaker 6: have a master's and soil science. It did not prepare
• 12:42
  Speaker 6: me for business ownership. So you're learning both at the
• 12:45
  Speaker 6: same time. And really level of client management changes drastically
• 12:51
  Speaker 6: of course with ownership, and really then learning what you
• 12:55
  Speaker 6: know your ar really means and that it's not like
• 12:59
  Speaker 6: getting a pH and it's real until.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: They actually send you the check versus your paycheck's real
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: on you know, every other Friday.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: Uh huh.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: A different approach. But yeah, that that's how I ended up.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: Well, I think, you know, I love hearing both of
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: your stories and your journeys, and we want to get
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: more into this because one of the things I really
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: appreciate about Angela getting the opportunity when I was working with.
• 13:21
  Speaker 3: You at Bargas, was you know.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: What and I think both of you, Jeraldine, you I
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: want you to speak to this too, but you know
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: you you as a woman business owner. You I was
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: not familiar with North Women Women Business the organization NABO
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: which you were a part of and the president of
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: a Sacramento and there's a lot of great resources there.
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: And one of the reasons why I started to even
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: steward your businesses because I wanted to be able to
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: come alongside and help other business owners and their teams
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: and realize that if you try to do it all
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: by yourself and figure that, try to you, you know
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: you can't. You can't be successful. Just try to do
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: it only on your own. But it's finding other organizations.
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: And the two of you have now talked in connected
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: and supporting each other. So just you know, maybe I'll
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: start with you, start with you first, Sheldeine, but just
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: kind of talk about your journey as a business owner,
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: and like what have you learned along the journey of
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: like leading finding other resources, because sometimes you feel like
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: we have to know all this stuff, but we don't
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: know all this stuff, you know, but we feel like
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: maybe I've got a hold of like this together. But
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: what I found in the Business round Table podcast, particularly
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: having all different voices come in here is sharing like
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: I know this slice of the pie, but I don't
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: know this, and I know this, and I need to
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: bring in other people to help me along the journey.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: Maybe just talk about that, Geraldine.
• 14:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, absolutely, that's a great question, because you know, I
• 14:37
  Speaker 5: always felt like, oh gosh.
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: Maybe I needed this business degree.
• 14:40
  Speaker 5: And along the lines where I really learned was maybe
• 14:45
  Speaker 5: I needed a psychology agree.
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: But that's a different story.
• 14:51
  Speaker 5: But really really, I mean, as my company started growing,
• 14:57
  Speaker 5: I started doing mentor protege programs with other large companies
• 15:03
  Speaker 5: and that was very That was probably one of the
• 15:05
  Speaker 5: first big steps, you know, being since we were a
• 15:09
  Speaker 5: disadvantaged business and women owned business, there were great programs
• 15:14
  Speaker 5: through transportation contracts that we could be mentored by larger companies.
• 15:19
  Speaker 5: You know, we were mentored by i CF one of them,
• 15:22
  Speaker 5: who was one of our best clients at Palel Solutions,
• 15:26
  Speaker 5: and I learned a lot because they shared just any
• 15:30
  Speaker 5: kind of trouble. I went to them with some bullets
• 15:33
  Speaker 5: and agendas of things that I wanted to.
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: Dress internally in my company and how they dealt with it.
• 15:39
  Speaker 5: So that was kind of my first insight like, oh,
• 15:41
  Speaker 5: it's really great that our good client.
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: Is willing to share. There was a lot of confidential.
• 15:48
  Speaker 5: Information with us and also helped strengthen the relationship with
• 15:52
  Speaker 5: that client. But at the same time I learned some
• 15:54
  Speaker 5: valuable just you know, hiring techniques on staff and how
• 15:59
  Speaker 5: to to hire better personnel or you know, just different
• 16:04
  Speaker 5: things that I went there also looking at finances, like
• 16:07
  Speaker 5: Angela had brought that up, and I think from there
• 16:11
  Speaker 5: I realized it would be really nice. As we started growing,
• 16:15
  Speaker 5: there was a lot of growing pains internally, and you know,
• 16:18
  Speaker 5: you as an owner, you take this stuff personally because
• 16:21
  Speaker 5: it's like, these are your children, these are your babies,
• 16:24
  Speaker 5: and it's.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: Like, even though you're no relationship to.
• 16:28
  Speaker 5: These people, you you know, you want your company top
• 16:32
  Speaker 5: rate like a happy family essentially, right, And so the
• 16:37
  Speaker 5: growing pains were bigger than I could get through just
• 16:42
  Speaker 5: even in a mentorship program, even though that arm was
• 16:46
  Speaker 5: always there even after the program was finished. And we
• 16:48
  Speaker 5: also did one with Felix too, and that was also
• 16:50
  Speaker 5: very valuable. But the next step that I did was
• 16:54
  Speaker 5: I started going to ten thousand small businesses and that
• 16:58
  Speaker 5: was what other CEOs and entrepreneurs, And I think what
• 17:04
  Speaker 5: I realized there is that a lot of my problems
• 17:07
  Speaker 5: in the business with staff and growing pains were pretty
• 17:12
  Speaker 5: normal to other companies, just didn't I just didn't know
• 17:16
  Speaker 5: that because I was internally rather than externally, and my
• 17:21
  Speaker 5: peers were my staff, which they're.
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: Really never your peers when you own a business.
• 17:27
  Speaker 5: So that's one of the first lessons I realized, was like, Oh,
• 17:31
  Speaker 5: it's really nice to talk to other CEOs and have
• 17:35
  Speaker 5: a shoulder an ear to lean on and get input
• 17:38
  Speaker 5: of their challenges and struggles that they had gone through.
• 17:41
  Speaker 5: So I just recognized that I didn't have to always
• 17:44
  Speaker 5: feel like I had to reinvent the wheel anytime there
• 17:46
  Speaker 5: was something that.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: I was troubleshooting with it, you know, and not just employees.
• 17:50
  Speaker 5: These are like project management, growing pains, financial growing campaigns,
• 17:55
  Speaker 5: like how to implement all these things, And I recognized
• 17:59
  Speaker 5: that it wasn't going to come internally until I got
• 18:03
  Speaker 5: external input, and I didn't have to start my own
• 18:07
  Speaker 5: research project every time there was an issue because companies
• 18:10
  Speaker 5: have gone through this time and time again, and having
• 18:13
  Speaker 5: that support from other CEOs was probably one of the
• 18:16
  Speaker 5: best lessons I learned, and from ten thousand small businesses.
• 18:19
  Speaker 4: Once I finished that program, it was like.
• 18:21
  Speaker 5: A I think it was like a ten month program
• 18:24
  Speaker 5: where it's like every week everyone you're going and you're you.
• 18:27
  Speaker 4: Know, you kind of put together a new business plan.
• 18:30
  Speaker 5: So it was a great way for me to kind
• 18:31
  Speaker 5: of look internally where I was and where I wanted
• 18:33
  Speaker 5: to go. And once that program ended, I joined Vistage,
• 18:39
  Speaker 5: which also was another CEO round table that gave me
• 18:42
  Speaker 5: other valuable insight from different types of CEOs that I
• 18:46
  Speaker 5: had been.
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: Exposed to ten thousand small businesses.
• 18:49
  Speaker 5: So I felt like it was a huge eye opener
• 18:52
  Speaker 5: for me to be finally around my peers and people
• 18:55
  Speaker 5: that could understand some of the challenges I had gone through.
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: Just kind of growing a business is and why I
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: say psychology over a business is.
• 19:04
  Speaker 5: I learned that going through these programs, a lot of
• 19:07
  Speaker 5: my intuition is innate and and I don't need a
• 19:12
  Speaker 5: business program for it. Maybe I would have benefited from
• 19:15
  Speaker 5: certain language and finances that I could have been, you know,
• 19:19
  Speaker 5: just a.
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: New vocabulary that I could have had the.
• 19:21
  Speaker 5: Right terms for, but I recognized that a lot of
• 19:24
  Speaker 5: my intuition was far more valuable than what.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: I would have actually got out of the business class.
• 19:29
  Speaker 5: But the psychology and what makes people tick, Now that's
• 19:33
  Speaker 5: something I realized that I'm like, you know, if I
• 19:36
  Speaker 5: would have known maybe I was going to run a business,
• 19:39
  Speaker 5: I would have paid a lot more attention in college
• 19:41
  Speaker 5: to my psychology costs.
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: Well, just to that end, Geraldine, I mean, that's part
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: of the reason why I created Steward your business. And
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: even when I was working with Angela Bargas, you know,
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I recognize my strength was a little bit more on
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: the people side. And people so there's different areas in people,
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: different strengths of systems and processes. And it's not bad
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: or good. It's just matter of getting everybody in the
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: right spot right And and and I think both of you
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: what I I know both of you, you're both visionaries.
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: You're both people that could see, uh something in the future,
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: what could be. And it's not that I think some
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: people will come that more naturally than others. And and
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: so I think that is a gift of seeing what
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: could be, what you guys have created, and people catch
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: on to that and they're like, I want to help
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: you do that. Don't ask me to create the vision,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: but I'll help you implement the vision right, you know,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: and so that you guys were able to see that
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: I call it, I call it the pioneer voice, but
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: somebody that's charting ahead, creating the path right for people
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: to follow behind you. And that's one of the things
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: that drew me to when I came to Vargas, because
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: I saw what Angela had created in the platform that
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: she said, and I could step into this space confidently,
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: and I was really appreciative of that. I think a
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: lot of people that are not business owners and have
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: maybe more an employee mindset. I'm not saying this derogatory,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: they just don't understand what has gone in. They're just
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: a lack of awareness and understanding what it took to
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: get you to this point, into this place, all the
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: energy and focus and like you said, the investment of time, Geraldly,
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: like you said, and I want business owners to hear
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: this because sometimes I say, oh, I don't have enough time,
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: or it's going to cost me some money or whatever
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: it's like. But you know that what you said, not
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: being alone, having perspective, understanding, and not being isolated, you know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: I think is to me, especially as a business owner
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: now myself is really refreshing and encouraging and helps me
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: keep going, you know when things are tough.
• 21:32
  Speaker 5: Yeah, and just before we transition, Angela, just on the
• 21:36
  Speaker 5: time factor. I mean I can tell you from where
• 21:38
  Speaker 5: I am now versus where I was.
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: I mean, you basically end up working seven days a
• 21:44
  Speaker 4: week whether you like it.
• 21:45
  Speaker 5: Or not, and your brain is always turning because you know,
• 21:49
  Speaker 5: you take the risk, whether it's financial or any troubleshooting
• 21:54
  Speaker 5: personal issues and companies and these things, or you know,
• 21:58
  Speaker 5: making sure your clients stay.
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: Happy, and these things keep you up at night all
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: the time.
• 22:03
  Speaker 5: So I feel like it was a seven day week
• 22:05
  Speaker 5: job that now that I'm not working, it took my
• 22:08
  Speaker 5: brain like three months for me to stop dreaming about
• 22:12
  Speaker 5: work and thinking about work. I mean, it is something
• 22:15
  Speaker 5: that really consumes you when you own the business, because
• 22:18
  Speaker 5: you can't just go home and turn it off. You know,
• 22:21
  Speaker 5: if something happens after hours, it comes back to.
• 22:24
  Speaker 4: You to solve those issues.
• 22:27
  Speaker 5: So the time factor, it's like, Angela could probably do
• 22:30
  Speaker 5: the math better than I can, but sometimes you make
• 22:32
  Speaker 5: an ease.
• 22:32
  Speaker 4: On the dollar.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 22:38
  Speaker 6: Yeah, well, and I think that's the you know, the
• 22:42
  Speaker 6: point that sometimes is missed. I think there's a perception
• 22:45
  Speaker 6: of just like well that the getting time away or
• 22:53
  Speaker 6: recognizing you know, I think your vision is what pulls
• 22:56
  Speaker 6: you forward and through the other challenges that you face.
• 23:01
  Speaker 6: And I think that that, David, is one of the
• 23:03
  Speaker 6: biggest things that I learned with you and I and
• 23:06
  Speaker 6: working together, because when we stopped working together, there was
• 23:09
  Speaker 6: a kind of this unspoken yet David and I think
• 23:13
  Speaker 6: we spoke about it a lot with where David's strengths were,
• 23:15
  Speaker 6: and I really did lean on those for him where
• 23:18
  Speaker 6: he built the team and created the connections. And my
• 23:21
  Speaker 6: strengths have always been in finance and you know, kind
• 23:25
  Speaker 6: of looking at the bigger picture piece and it's not
• 23:29
  Speaker 6: that I'm missing something because it takes the team, so
• 23:33
  Speaker 6: we don't all have it all. And I think that's
• 23:36
  Speaker 6: the impact that it can have, is when you're starting
• 23:39
  Speaker 6: to put your team together, if you have some folks
• 23:42
  Speaker 6: that are while I am the best, and I'm the
• 23:44
  Speaker 6: best at this and I should be the best at
• 23:46
  Speaker 6: everything else, all of a sudden stops working together to
• 23:51
  Speaker 6: maybe build that same vision. And so I do know
• 23:54
  Speaker 6: that that has been something that you know now that
• 23:57
  Speaker 6: I'm seeing and going through transitions of leaders within the
• 24:02
  Speaker 6: company and kind of where you know, you can still
• 24:05
  Speaker 6: have your vision for your company, but how it can
• 24:09
  Speaker 6: be impacted and sometimes even derailed by certain folks that
• 24:14
  Speaker 6: have a different vision that came to your you know,
• 24:17
  Speaker 6: came along onto your ride for a totally different reason
• 24:21
  Speaker 6: that you weren't as clear. And I think you know,
• 24:24
  Speaker 6: back to Geraldine's point that being around other business owners
• 24:28
  Speaker 6: sometimes just helps you formulate your vision a little bit better.
• 24:32
  Speaker 6: It makes you understand that, you know, other folks do
• 24:35
  Speaker 6: have those same problems.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: But your problems are sometimes unique for yourself too, And
• 24:41
  Speaker 2: you know, and in growth and how you grow, so.
• 24:44
  Speaker 6: I think you know, David, we had we had two
• 24:46
  Speaker 6: experiences and we worked together with huge growth, keep that growth,
• 24:50
  Speaker 6: keep keeping up with being able to bring enough talented people,
• 24:53
  Speaker 6: and then all of a sudden you find that there's
• 24:55
  Speaker 6: new problems. And I think that's the biggest thing that
• 24:57
  Speaker 6: I've learned in business is that every time you almost
• 25:02
  Speaker 6: have to have a stomach for just problem solving, because
• 25:05
  Speaker 6: there isn't a life solved this And now I've got
• 25:08
  Speaker 6: three weeks with no problems.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Just keep coming.
• 25:12
  Speaker 6: I think that that's something that I have found now
• 25:16
  Speaker 6: in asking and working with you know, new leaders and
• 25:20
  Speaker 6: starting to look at what you know. Kind of the
• 25:22
  Speaker 6: next phase of bargus looks like it's asking more what's
• 25:25
  Speaker 6: your appetite for, you know, for having to be the
• 25:29
  Speaker 6: problem solve or being the person that they come to
• 25:32
  Speaker 6: and you don't know how you're going to solve it,
• 25:35
  Speaker 6: and sometimes it can feel you know, insurmountable. And I
• 25:38
  Speaker 6: think that is where the business groups or you know,
• 25:41
  Speaker 6: having business coaches, all of those things become very helpful
• 25:44
  Speaker 6: because sometimes somebody has already gone through it, or you
• 25:48
  Speaker 6: know sometimes too and you know, Geraldine, you can you know,
• 25:51
  Speaker 6: of course share your story on what it was like
• 25:53
  Speaker 6: to go through a sale.
• 25:54
  Speaker 2: But all of that is you don't know it until
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: you know it.
• 25:58
  Speaker 6: You know, it's kind of like I don't know what
• 25:59
  Speaker 6: it broke, and arm feels like until it's broken, and
• 26:01
  Speaker 6: then you're like, oh, I remembered. You know, those are
• 26:05
  Speaker 6: those things that and then you know it heals and
• 26:09
  Speaker 6: you move on and you kind of go what, you know,
• 26:12
  Speaker 6: what what's next, and then the next time you're kind
• 26:14
  Speaker 6: of like, oh, that's actually not that big a deal.
• 26:17
  Speaker 6: It's so I think those are big pieces in any
• 26:21
  Speaker 6: type of leadership growth also is that I think that
• 26:24
  Speaker 6: is what I find is setting apart. I think if
• 26:27
  Speaker 6: folks like not you know, to not have a lot
• 26:29
  Speaker 6: of change, I think, you know, and again back to
• 26:33
  Speaker 6: the team, and you need all of our personalities in
• 26:36
  Speaker 6: the world.
• 26:36
  Speaker 2: You need them.
• 26:37
  Speaker 6: That's part of companies that it's a huge component. But
• 26:40
  Speaker 6: you also need to ask fish to climb trees. You
• 26:44
  Speaker 6: have to not try to push somebody into management or leadership.
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: And I'd say that one of my biggest misunderstandings and
• 26:53
  Speaker 2: growing a business was.
• 26:54
  Speaker 6: That was because I was like, well, of course they
• 26:58
  Speaker 6: want another opportunity. Of course they want to take on
• 27:01
  Speaker 6: that step, because I wasn't given that opportunity at the
• 27:04
  Speaker 6: first firm that I worked at. But that isn't always
• 27:07
  Speaker 6: the case. And I think getting clear with folks on
• 27:11
  Speaker 6: what they want and what their path looks like, and
• 27:15
  Speaker 6: then making sure you really have some you know, folks
• 27:17
  Speaker 6: that you know, enjoy that leadership piece. And because each
• 27:21
  Speaker 6: phase of growth is going to have just a whole
• 27:23
  Speaker 6: new set of challenges.
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I want to touch based on that. Angela,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: maybe have you talked about this in the jail, because
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: you know, you're you know, ten plus years successfully. I
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: mean that's pretty successful. Business will last ten plus years
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: both of you, both of you been able to do this.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: And and angel I remember when I came and started
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: working with you, and I think twenty eighteen, I think
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: you're one of your goals, I want to make a
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: million in revenue at least, that was one of the goals.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Like I want to do that, right and so and
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: so there's no there's a business life cycle, and there
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: are certain things that happened along the life cycle, like
• 28:01
  Speaker 1: so you said, so that is one thing, and then
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: but getting at two million, three million, five million, whatever,
• 28:07
  Speaker 1: there's different problems that occur along that. And one thing
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: that you and I I found with you and Gerald
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: did you have to talk about this too, is that
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: we kept having to at that point in the in
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: the game of re almost resetting our roles and responsibilities
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: about every six to twelve months ish of like, Okay,
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: well there's new issues and new things, and now what
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: I was doing previously, I got a pivot from that
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: and I've got to move to these new problems. And
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: so in the environmental consulting space or any younger business,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: I would say it's in that kind of growth spurt
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: and sometimes it can be done in a shorter period
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: of time, just depends, but you know, having to be
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: aware of that and adjust, like you're saying, Angela, and
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: you know, again not being ins like what you said, Geraldine,
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: looking outside of yourself whatever that might be, whether it
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: be visage or ten thousand you know, businesses or you know,
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: talking with Angelaine, you and I at the time, we
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: had different consultants that were coming in and guiding us
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: a perspective that just you know how important that it
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: was and to continue to you know, look for support
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: outside of yourself along those journeys and again to sign
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: out what's working, what's not working, What do we keep
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: that's actually really healthy and good and one of the
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: things that we need to let go of. And I
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: think that's a I'm reading this great book right now,
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: you guys might have read a ten X is used
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: than two X. But this idea of letting the eighty
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: percent go, that was that that won't get you to
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: the next twenty percent of that next level that you
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: need to get to, right and having a team that
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: comes alongside you, And that's my passion, you guys know,
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: as through your business is like building that leadership team
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: underneath you. Because what I found, and you guys could
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: speak this is as I've done this and talk with
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: more business owners, they can feel almost that they've created
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: a prison themselves. Not by design, they didn't want to,
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: but they've created that for themselves. Because now I'm stuck
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: and I haven't built a team that can take and
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: carry the vision on.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: For me, and and really, you know, how do I
• 29:59
  Speaker 3: how do I do that successfully?
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: So maybe I'll start with you and a little bit
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: of talking about the journey kind of something up to
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: now as you talk a little bit about it, and
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: then come to you Geraldine about the life cycle of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: the business.
• 30:11
  Speaker 6: Yeah, I think those are you know, as far as
• 30:13
  Speaker 6: there are clear revenue steps. And it's so funny because
• 30:17
  Speaker 6: I was talking to one of our current leaders at
• 30:20
  Speaker 6: Argus about it yesterday and just I was joking because
• 30:23
  Speaker 6: some of the challenges that we're having now one, I
• 30:26
  Speaker 6: couldn't even father them at a million, and then the
• 30:29
  Speaker 6: problems that I had in a million, I was teasing like, man,
• 30:32
  Speaker 6: I'd love to go and talk.
• 30:33
  Speaker 7: To take those problems, you know, But it was perspective
• 30:38
  Speaker 7: and experience, right, So once you experience it, and you know,
• 30:42
  Speaker 7: I think that is why, you know, you know, endurance
• 30:46
  Speaker 7: sports is a good example too, because it's you don't
• 30:49
  Speaker 7: always know, and you try it and you get scared
• 30:52
  Speaker 7: at first, and then all of a sudden you're enjoying
• 30:53
  Speaker 7: the fear around it and then you're you know, I.
• 30:56
  Speaker 6: Think that's that's some of that that piece of it
• 30:59
  Speaker 6: and and so and that's where you know, and David,
• 31:03
  Speaker 6: you know, we talked.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: A lot about that.
• 31:04
  Speaker 6: We both enjoyed outside not but just collaboration on other
• 31:11
  Speaker 6: ways that we could do it so that you know,
• 31:13
  Speaker 6: we aren't just seeing it the one direction that we
• 31:16
  Speaker 6: we believe that it is. And it's it's interesting that
• 31:19
  Speaker 6: I find that that's a that's a mindset as well,
• 31:22
  Speaker 6: and having folks that do that, and you know, and
• 31:25
  Speaker 6: as as you go into transitions, you know, I think
• 31:28
  Speaker 6: that you know, I know, for me, I've always wanted
• 31:32
  Speaker 6: to see an expansion in leadership at Bargas and have
• 31:35
  Speaker 6: other folks come in, you know, and that's when gerald
• 31:38
  Speaker 6: Lean's talked about having partners and things like that. That
• 31:40
  Speaker 6: has always been something that I've wanted to look at,
• 31:43
  Speaker 6: like what does expanding it look like? But then it
• 31:46
  Speaker 6: also has to have the right you know, appe type
• 31:49
  Speaker 6: for business ownership. You know, you shift from knowing for
• 31:54
  Speaker 6: sure you're going to have a paycheck every two weeks
• 31:56
  Speaker 6: to possibly having to take a line out on your
• 31:59
  Speaker 6: home to make payroll for everyone else.
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: You know, So just those those things shift, and.
• 32:05
  Speaker 6: Again you have to believe and not to know, you know,
• 32:07
  Speaker 6: we're doing the right things. We're you know, we're protecting
• 32:11
  Speaker 6: both our finite and you know resources, and that those
• 32:16
  Speaker 6: are the things and and even just and ones that
• 32:19
  Speaker 6: aren't you know, as far as those it's just important
• 32:23
  Speaker 6: to kind of keep in mind like what the business
• 32:25
  Speaker 6: does as a whole, and then how do you make
• 32:28
  Speaker 6: sure that you can take care of the people that
• 32:30
  Speaker 6: are working with you, and so all of that, you know,
• 32:33
  Speaker 6: kind of changes. And I think that that's the piece
• 32:35
  Speaker 6: where I've always tried to increase and have additional benefits
• 32:38
  Speaker 6: and making sure that we have some of that piece.
• 32:41
  Speaker 6: But then I have to have people at the firm
• 32:44
  Speaker 6: then that also do the nurturing piece that still need
• 32:46
  Speaker 6: as well. So I think sometimes as leader they expect
• 32:51
  Speaker 6: folks to do all of you know that that leader
• 32:54
  Speaker 6: must do all of those pieces.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: And that isn't the case.
• 32:58
  Speaker 6: That isn't fair to ask one human and to do anything,
• 33:00
  Speaker 6: just like you wouldn't ask your staff. So I think
• 33:02
  Speaker 6: that's a lot of what I've found with you know,
• 33:05
  Speaker 6: the different sizes, the expectations from leadership. I think that
• 33:09
  Speaker 6: also the changes also from you know, what you do
• 33:13
  Speaker 6: from coming from the field and managing projects is very
• 33:16
  Speaker 6: different when you shift your role into more of that
• 33:19
  Speaker 6: executive space and having to manage the firm finances or
• 33:23
  Speaker 6: your department finances and manage the people that are now
• 33:27
  Speaker 6: managing the people that are doing the work and do
• 33:29
  Speaker 6: they have everything they need and all of the safety
• 33:32
  Speaker 6: parts and components. Because you're now managing risk, you're not
• 33:36
  Speaker 6: managing the projects, So that shifts, and as you grow,
• 33:40
  Speaker 6: you need more manager people to kind of manage the
• 33:45
  Speaker 6: teams and growth.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, Geraldine, what about your journey of the life
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: cycle of the business.
• 33:52
  Speaker 5: There, I just want to touch on what Angela finished
• 33:56
  Speaker 5: off on, because I think you know, should talked about
• 34:00
  Speaker 5: giving opportunities to people and bringing people into management and
• 34:04
  Speaker 5: all those things, and I think something that is challenging
• 34:07
  Speaker 5: across especially consulting in the environmental world, is that you
• 34:11
  Speaker 5: have these really smart scientists and they go into this
• 34:15
  Speaker 5: field because of their passion. But what we've all learned
• 34:19
  Speaker 5: is the way to move up is you end up
• 34:22
  Speaker 5: in management right and you move farther from per se
• 34:26
  Speaker 5: to technical work that you used to love or be
• 34:28
  Speaker 5: passionate about, or digging them fossils or being in the
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: field as a biologist. And so I think that's something
• 34:35
  Speaker 5: that becomes very difficult because somebody wants to growth the opportunities,
• 34:41
  Speaker 5: but putting them in a management position isn't always the
• 34:45
  Speaker 5: right direction. And it gets much harder with a smaller
• 34:49
  Speaker 5: firm than a large firm because in a small firm
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: you end up wearing a lot of different hats. No
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: matter what level in the company you're at, you end
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: up crossing some boundary.
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: And I think in a bigger firm, if.
• 35:03
  Speaker 5: You wanted only a technical trajectory, you can go that way,
• 35:07
  Speaker 5: and I find a smaller firm it's much more challenging
• 35:11
  Speaker 5: to keep votes just in technical, especially if they fought
• 35:14
  Speaker 5: that trajectory to move up. And I think consulting has
• 35:18
  Speaker 5: done a huge injustice sometimes in promoting people to their
• 35:23
  Speaker 5: point of what I would say the Peter principle, right,
• 35:27
  Speaker 5: And it's not that that person isn't capable or smart,
• 35:30
  Speaker 5: it's just that was the only trajectory up and now
• 35:33
  Speaker 5: they're not as successful personally because of how the industry
• 35:38
  Speaker 5: moves people of So it's just something that I've learned
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: and definitely observed as a small business owner that was
• 35:45
  Speaker 5: really challenging is taking these really smart people and putting
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: them in these other positions that they really weren't well
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: trained for. And I know Angela had done an excellent
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: job of sending people.
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: To project management program and things like that.
• 36:01
  Speaker 5: So she definitely took initiative, and I did that through
• 36:05
  Speaker 5: some of our mentor proge programs that we had participated.
• 36:09
  Speaker 5: But still, like, you know, some people are really good
• 36:12
  Speaker 5: at just working away and doing their reporting and that's happy,
• 36:16
  Speaker 5: but now you add the managing a person, or you
• 36:19
  Speaker 5: add the finances, and it's it's a whirlwind.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Sometimes no, absolutely, Geraldine. And it's interesting because now I've
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: worked got to work with other business owners and it's just,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: you know, I have a gentleman that does a completely
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: different business and he has you know, you know, salespeople,
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: and they're really good at sales. But then you promote
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: them to sales manager and they're they're struggling. They're they're
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: struggling with that. So management is a totally different skill set,
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: I agree with you. Uh, and some people are are
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: better suited or adaptable or coachable than others, right, and
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: then it's not and then you have the management and
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: then on top of management. Then I had to learn
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: this years ago, even before I started working the handle.
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: There's difference between management and leadership as well, and that's
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: a whole another thing, right, And so.
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a good point.
• 37:09
  Speaker 6: You know, I think that folks can see themselves as
• 37:13
  Speaker 6: great managers and you know, have great rapport with their staff,
• 37:17
  Speaker 6: and then they'll struggle with the leadership piece or they're
• 37:21
  Speaker 6: not coachable, and so there sometimes see that there are
• 37:25
  Speaker 6: opportunities to create good relationships or that they you know,
• 37:29
  Speaker 6: they built teams, but it has to go builth directions.
• 37:34
  Speaker 6: When you're in management and in leadership, you have to
• 37:36
  Speaker 6: be able to to kind of do those those.
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: Two pieces with it. And I think that's that you.
• 37:42
  Speaker 6: Know the piece and I also have learned you and
• 37:45
  Speaker 6: really recognizing that it is one hundred percent okay and
• 37:49
  Speaker 6: in fact, a good thing. If you are clear that
• 37:52
  Speaker 6: you want to stay on the technical track, that is fantastic.
• 37:56
  Speaker 6: I think sometimes then too, folks then say, but I
• 37:59
  Speaker 6: want to also make these other salaries or I want
• 38:02
  Speaker 6: to move up. And I think some of the challenges
• 38:04
  Speaker 6: with that are that comes outside of your forty hour
• 38:08
  Speaker 6: work week. You know, those are because you're keeping your
• 38:11
  Speaker 6: clients having you're planning and doing all these other things
• 38:13
  Speaker 6: outside of that time. And I think that that's something
• 38:17
  Speaker 6: that gets missed. You can offer a work life balance
• 38:20
  Speaker 6: for many of your staff, but at the leadership level,
• 38:24
  Speaker 6: you're you're always doing something different. So back to you
• 38:27
  Speaker 6: know what Geraldine said, it's you know, my job isn't
• 38:31
  Speaker 6: you know? I've not had a seven or non seven
• 38:34
  Speaker 6: day work week, you know, and I don't know how long.
• 38:37
  Speaker 6: And that's okay from you know, a certain space and
• 38:41
  Speaker 6: it works for some people. And I think that's when
• 38:43
  Speaker 6: people also need to recognize that it might not work
• 38:45
  Speaker 6: for them.
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: M Well, both of you guys speak to this too,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: because I think there's a and this is not right
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: or wrong, it's just a different mindset and understanding of
• 38:57
  Speaker 1: kind of a transaction, like a transactional versus his mindset.
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: And one of the things I Angela, when I came
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: to work with you was this give before you get modeled,
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: like I want to create value. I want to participate.
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: I want to give, not it's not it's not trantertractional.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: And there's a lot of people that's just like I'm
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: going to do my little time and that's okay. You know,
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna do my check in check and they want
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: to set in that in that space. It's just being
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: really clear if that's you know, but you sometimes people
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: like you said, Angela, are kind of torn like, well,
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I want this, but I only but I but I
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: really only want to and this. But at the end
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: of the day, I just want to be transactional. I
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: want to count for my fifteen minutes in and out
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: and if you're going, I'm gonna charge you another fifteen
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: minutes if I have to whatever. Right, So it's a
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: tit for tat thing instead of saying, like, how do
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: we help each other? And so maybe just speak to
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: the to the mindset of how you know somebody that
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: you know, you guys have seen me successful in your
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: mind of from moving up from that technical manager to
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: leadership where have you seen that mind shift? You know,
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: understanding now Gerald, you know you want to start first,
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: or just thoughts there.
• 40:00
  Speaker 5: I mean, I think you see a mind shift when
• 40:03
  Speaker 5: you get the right person, the right leader in place,
• 40:07
  Speaker 5: and they recognize that all of a sudden there's a
• 40:10
  Speaker 5: team that they're responsible for, and when that team works
• 40:15
  Speaker 5: and it's a well oiled machine, it's it's a very
• 40:19
  Speaker 5: good place I think for that leadership. And I think
• 40:23
  Speaker 5: they recognize when that's in place and that's moving, how
• 40:28
  Speaker 5: valuable their leadership role is into making that happen.
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: Sometimes to get.
• 40:33
  Speaker 5: That machine that well oiled, you know, it takes a
• 40:37
  Speaker 5: lot of effort, a lot of understanding. I felt like
• 40:42
  Speaker 5: even for when I was at Faval Solutions, we did
• 40:45
  Speaker 5: some strategic planning to really change and get people more
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: into mail en up upper management responsibilities and leadership responsibilities.
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: And sometimes you have to.
• 40:58
  Speaker 5: Be vulnerable and listen to things that you don't want
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: to hear, and it can be very difficult. But I
• 41:06
  Speaker 5: think if you're able to overcome that vulnerability and step
• 41:12
  Speaker 5: aside and listen a lot of times.
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: You can make some pretty big strides with your team
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: and step forward.
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: Because when we did the strategic planning, and this kind
• 41:23
  Speaker 5: of ties a little bit in the trajectory of the business. Well,
• 41:26
  Speaker 5: I mean, the environmental consulting industry has been a challenge
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: for I would say what at least five, maybe going
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: on ten years to find staff right and the staff.
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: That you need at the level that you need it, because.
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: Our industry has been really really busy with regulations, construction,
• 41:49
  Speaker 5: you know, meeting, infrastructure needs, all of those things. And
• 41:54
  Speaker 5: we saw a huge uptick in work, but there wasn't
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: an uptick in the number of people available. And we
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: when we went through this strategy planning to allow more
• 42:03
  Speaker 5: people to take on those leadership responsibilities, we actually saw
• 42:07
  Speaker 5: an increase in productivity without changing staff. So so there's
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: there's something to be said if you can make that
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: transition to the right people at the right time and
• 42:18
  Speaker 5: the people that they're with and how they work together.
• 42:22
  Speaker 5: So I think it's a tough topic, but it's it's
• 42:27
  Speaker 5: it's possible and and but it could take one wrong person,
• 42:32
  Speaker 5: even on that team, to kind of derail the whole
• 42:36
  Speaker 5: thing as well. You know. It's I think we've all
• 42:43
  Speaker 5: heard the saying right, higher, higher, slow, fire fast, and
• 42:47
  Speaker 5: I think one of the worst jobs that I ever
• 42:50
  Speaker 5: had to do.
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: Is fire people.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And I don't care.
• 42:54
  Speaker 4: It never got easy no matter what the situation was.
• 42:58
  Speaker 5: However, somebody's railing a team, sometimes you do have to
• 43:02
  Speaker 5: take these extremes avenues to to kind of resteer and
• 43:06
  Speaker 5: correct the ship on put the ship back on course.
• 43:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:11
  Speaker 6: Absolutely, yeah, And I think, you know, to the point,
• 43:15
  Speaker 6: I've been only taking you know, one or you know,
• 43:17
  Speaker 6: just a couple of people that that debrail it. You know,
• 43:20
  Speaker 6: it's and I did take a different route than than
• 43:23
  Speaker 6: Gerald and I, you know, have brought in business coaches
• 43:25
  Speaker 6: for the year, you know, for years now and trying
• 43:28
  Speaker 6: to get a leadership team to gel and work well
• 43:32
  Speaker 6: together and to benefit from that shift when you get
• 43:36
  Speaker 6: a great and well functioning leadership team. Yes, And what's
• 43:40
  Speaker 6: been interesting is that, you know, David, you and I
• 43:43
  Speaker 6: had a lot of energy when we were working together,
• 43:45
  Speaker 6: and then we started bringing other folks and and it's
• 43:48
  Speaker 6: interesting now and looking in hindsight of what those questions
• 43:51
  Speaker 6: would have been as.
• 43:52
  Speaker 2: Far as what we're seeing leadership asks.
• 43:54
  Speaker 6: These are are this is our mindset because it's back
• 43:58
  Speaker 6: to the technical piece pieces. So hard to find these
• 44:01
  Speaker 6: technical experts and then I believed, well, if I bring
• 44:05
  Speaker 6: in coaches, I can teach them the leadership piece or
• 44:08
  Speaker 6: the management and that in some cases.
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: And you know, it wasn't fair, you know, and maybe
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: they thought, you know, that they wanted it.
• 44:15
  Speaker 6: And and I think that the more open you are
• 44:18
  Speaker 6: to being coached, and the more open you are to
• 44:20
  Speaker 6: being having those hard things, like Geraldine said, reflected to you,
• 44:24
  Speaker 6: so that you can continue to keep improving. And that's
• 44:29
  Speaker 6: where you know, I've even seen a shift in you know,
• 44:32
  Speaker 6: maybe the coaches I've worked with or the.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: Team that I've worked with.
• 44:35
  Speaker 6: And then the other thing now that we're finding with
• 44:38
  Speaker 6: our team now is that we meet once a month
• 44:40
  Speaker 6: in person, and we wouldn't be as close as we
• 44:45
  Speaker 6: are now had we not started to make that investment
• 44:49
  Speaker 6: because working together to solve all of these challenges that
• 44:53
  Speaker 6: we have and to now bring in the different perspectives
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: so that you're back to now looking at what is
• 45:01
  Speaker 6: the best way we as a leadership team can solve
• 45:03
  Speaker 6: these problems versus a blaming kind of victim mindset that
• 45:09
  Speaker 6: it is just the person at the helm.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: On why we crashed, and.
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: And so it's yeah, you know, I think it's it's
• 45:16
  Speaker 6: an interesting place to go to, you know, just to
• 45:18
  Speaker 6: use a sailing analogy, like if it is just the
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: person at the helmet, it's actually, no, you need a crew.
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: Because if you're about.
• 45:23
  Speaker 6: To cash crash the boat, there's a lot of work
• 45:26
  Speaker 6: to be done to stop the boat from crashing. About
• 45:29
  Speaker 6: vendors out to help or are you going to just
• 45:33
  Speaker 6: point at the person at the helmet and say, I
• 45:35
  Speaker 6: hope the wind goes the right direction. So those are
• 45:38
  Speaker 6: things that you know when people are going to maybe
• 45:41
  Speaker 6: if they're watching this and art in leadership and yet
• 45:44
  Speaker 6: wanted to be in leadership, it's you know, recognizing that
• 45:47
  Speaker 6: your job shifts quite a bit and knowing the technical
• 45:50
  Speaker 6: is important. But like what I found in working with you, David,
• 45:55
  Speaker 6: the ability to grow a team and maybe having more
• 45:58
  Speaker 6: technical experts as a part of your team if it's
• 46:01
  Speaker 6: not the space that you're coming from or in ability
• 46:05
  Speaker 6: is something to look at. Is I think people are
• 46:08
  Speaker 6: trying to grow firms.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a colleague that there's a book you're hiring
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: for for attitude or hiring for people that are coachable,
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: that appreciate that you know that can like you're saying,
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: Angela I mean there's people can learn certain skills and
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: of course sometimes you know, we all need those. We
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: need those folks, absolutely no doubt. But you know, working
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: collaboratively understanding how we can appreciate all the differences, you know,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I think is super important. I think both of you
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: have spoke to you know, the strategic planning, which not
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: everybody does. But looking at these things and again casting
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: the vision, and it's not just one it's not just
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: one time. It's an ongoing thing like you said, Angela.
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: It's not like, oh, we're just going to be once
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: a year and that's it. It's like every month or
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: whatever the frequency is, to continue you to remind people
• 47:02
  Speaker 1: this is what we're about.
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: I feel like the.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Companies that get this and really it's infused in their culture.
• 47:09
  Speaker 3: You see.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: You see how healthy that is to me when you
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: see Unfortunately, when you see, uh, there's a purpose you
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: know there. You know, unions have been around for a
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: long time and you know, and they serve a purpose.
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: But ideally, you know, you don't have to go to
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: war and have this this antagonistic relationship with your employer
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: if you if you can, you know, see the greater
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: vision and we win together as opposed it's us against you.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: You're you're this side where this side.
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: It's like to me, that's that's you know, not a
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: way to run a business, not a way to run
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: a life. But you know, but there's a mindset you
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: have to have a mindset shift of understanding right are
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: we are we is this we're going to win together?
• 47:48
  Speaker 1: Or is this like you're winning, I'm losing kind of
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: a thing. Gerald And you have come on, I think.
• 47:54
  Speaker 5: David, like one a point you bring up, which is
• 47:56
  Speaker 5: something that I experienced a lot and very surprised, and
• 48:02
  Speaker 5: I think oftentimes people view because you're the CEO and
• 48:06
  Speaker 5: you're the head of the business, as this.
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: Like scary person. And what I found in my.
• 48:13
  Speaker 5: Career is how unfortunate is that people were not willing
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: to always come and.
• 48:17
  Speaker 4: Talk to you and just have a conversation.
• 48:20
  Speaker 5: And those conversations can when you open that door for
• 48:24
  Speaker 5: a conversation, what can come out of it is amazing,
• 48:29
  Speaker 5: you know, whether like you end up being in alignment
• 48:32
  Speaker 5: with that person or not. But rather than making an
• 48:35
  Speaker 5: assumption and just walking away, I find more often people
• 48:40
  Speaker 5: were too scared, unwilling just to come knock on the door.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: And say, hey, I need to have a chat. Here's
• 48:48
  Speaker 4: what I'm thinking about with my career or where I
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: want to go.
• 48:51
  Speaker 5: Because the last thing I would ever want is for
• 48:54
  Speaker 5: somebody to be unsuccessful, and that doesn't necessarily mean working
• 48:59
  Speaker 5: for me or you know, if their success comes from
• 49:02
  Speaker 5: somewhere else, I'm going to be super positive and promote
• 49:05
  Speaker 5: that even if they were my employee at the time,
• 49:08
  Speaker 5: because to see that person grow and become successful is
• 49:12
  Speaker 5: way more rewarding than for them to not be able
• 49:15
  Speaker 5: to open that door and.
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: Talk to me. And I more often that people were like, oh.
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: Well I didn't think I could, or you're always too busy,
• 49:24
  Speaker 5: and that's not true. You make time for things that
• 49:28
  Speaker 5: are really important, and people were always very important, So
• 49:32
  Speaker 5: I guess you just I think it's just I say
• 49:35
  Speaker 5: that because you know, if I could just sit any
• 49:37
  Speaker 5: of my knowledge is go talk to your supervisors, go
• 49:41
  Speaker 5: talk to your bosses, and don't be afraid to have
• 49:44
  Speaker 5: those conversations because you might actually be really surprised. What
• 49:48
  Speaker 5: could open up as a possibility than thinking you have
• 49:51
  Speaker 5: to leave this company or change your situation.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you could be a part of the solution.
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: Absolute exactly.
• 50:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I know, Angela. You know, back when I was
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: working with you, you know, there's a lot of self
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: and post stories. I think even I had to learn that.
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: As I would say, like you do, they're like, hey,
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: I'd be happy to talk with you, and know they
• 50:13
  Speaker 1: wouldn't take the initiative. And so because they said, well,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: you're like you just said, Joey, you're too busy, I'm
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: not important in that these are their stories.
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: I wasn't. I wasn't saying this right exactly.
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: And then and then they can and then in along
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: those stories they can say, well, you you don't really
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: care or whatever these narratives are right, instead of like,
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: why don't we get to the reality, Let's let's come
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: to the together to seek out We may see things differently,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: but at least have the conversation and and and and
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: have the opportunity to get at the truth rather than
• 50:43
  Speaker 1: kind of staying in these you know silos.
• 50:47
  Speaker 5: Yeah, that outcome may be the same, but you never
• 50:50
  Speaker 5: know unless you have that conversation.
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: Never unless exactly we're gonna have to do another episode.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: I know we're getting coming close to the end of
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: the time here. I want Angela to you give just
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: we talked a lot of a lot of different things here,
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: but I liked I liked your and I'm gonna come
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: back you one more time at Geraldine.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: But as we're wrapping up here, just.
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: Some things that you know, a key takeaway or thought
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: Angela that you wanted to share to whether you're a
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: business owner, whether you're up and cooming leader, just you
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: know something that hey, in your your journey as a
• 51:20
  Speaker 1: woman business owner developing bargas that you would just say, hey,
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: this if I could share this nugget, this gold nugget
• 51:26
  Speaker 1: with you, this would be you know, really important and
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: just kind of considering and come back to you, Geraldine.
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: But just you know, what was was something that's just
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: been really meaningful, even just recently possibly that just says, hey,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: you know, keep at it. Here's something that I've really
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: learned along the way of your journey.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:43
  Speaker 6: I think it's going back to that you're on a team, right,
• 51:47
  Speaker 6: so you if you don't like the team or you
• 51:50
  Speaker 6: don't like the coach, then go and talk about other
• 51:53
  Speaker 6: ways that you might be able to do some of
• 51:55
  Speaker 6: the approaches or the place like I mean, and I
• 51:57
  Speaker 6: think that's what Geraldine was touching on going and and
• 52:00
  Speaker 6: talk to people because it's in conversation and it's much
• 52:03
  Speaker 6: more challenging these days ever since COVID companies are not
• 52:06
  Speaker 6: in the same location. So you shut you have a
• 52:08
  Speaker 6: two D conversation, you shut your computer down, and then
• 52:11
  Speaker 6: you go and tell somebody else what that conversation was about.
• 52:14
  Speaker 6: So I think the biggest nugget I have is something
• 52:17
  Speaker 6: that I heard. If you're not willing to say what
• 52:19
  Speaker 6: you're about to say to the person you're talking about,
• 52:22
  Speaker 6: then you really need to check yourself on whether or
• 52:24
  Speaker 6: not you're saying it, because you really can put in
• 52:27
  Speaker 6: seeds of negativity into your environment and others environments if
• 52:32
  Speaker 6: you're not really trying to work.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Together and to kind of talk. And I think that's.
• 52:38
  Speaker 6: What I have found in leaders, is that true leaders
• 52:42
  Speaker 6: are able to have those candid conversations with each other,
• 52:46
  Speaker 6: have them to each other even when it's hard, and
• 52:50
  Speaker 6: they're not running around and having siloed conversations and back doors,
• 52:54
  Speaker 6: because it'll road a team faster than you can.
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: It's easy to burn a house down and it's hard
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: to build it.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: Yes, great, great, thank you Angela. All right, Geraldine, here
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: we're in the last couple of minutes, here last nugget
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: that you'd like to share with our audio.
• 53:09
  Speaker 5: I think the things that I loved the most about
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: running a business was the learning curve is exponential. Considering
• 53:19
  Speaker 5: you know, my degree was in geology and my master's
• 53:22
  Speaker 5: geology with an emphasis in paleo. But the learning curve
• 53:25
  Speaker 5: was exponential, which I kind of valued because it always
• 53:29
  Speaker 5: kept me on my toes. It kept me, you know,
• 53:33
  Speaker 5: willing to learn and be open minded to new things,
• 53:36
  Speaker 5: and being adaptable and the ability to change as the
• 53:40
  Speaker 5: environment and the world changes. So I think those are
• 53:43
  Speaker 5: things that I took away from running a business. I
• 53:46
  Speaker 5: find that a lot of employees don't like change, especially
• 53:50
  Speaker 5: if you make that change for them. But I think
• 53:52
  Speaker 5: if you really want to run a business and you
• 53:56
  Speaker 5: like excitement and you like learning, it's there's a lot
• 53:59
  Speaker 5: to learn.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: There's a lot to learn, and so we're going to
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: come back and put a pin in it because there's
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: a lot, a lot more to learn. And I'm so
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: grateful for both of you being on the podcast here.
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: Thank you everybody, Thank you Angela, thank.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: You Geraldine, thank you for all listening to the Business
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: round Table podcast. We really appreciate those of you that
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: are liking and subscribing and following us.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: Along on the Business round Table POCUST. We will definitely
• 54:23
  Speaker 3: have you both back because there's a lot more stipal unpack.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: So I just want to say thank you again for
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: being on the podcast here with me. Yea, David all right,
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: thank you so much. Thanks everybody for listening. Have a
• 54:35
  Speaker 1: great day.