Latest / Fire Engineering Podcast / Designing Your Next Chapter: A Personal Retirement Plan for Firefighters
Transcript
- Nat Kapustin: Head into the holidays with everything you need to keep your community safe. Shop trusted brands like MSA, Streamlight, and Seek. Explore customization options across a wide range of gear and apparel, and find gift certificates, all on the firestore.com. And good evening. It's another exciting episode of the Larry Connolly Radio Show. And I have the pleasure of introducing myself because David's not here to do it. So I know that sounds kind of weird, but you know, I'll I'll do it anyway. Somebody has to do it. So I'm going to do it anyway and get us started. It's fall already. And you know, it's not my favorite time of the year. You know, I'm a summer tropical brother, but hey, we gotta deal with what we gotta deal with. But the good thing about being semi retired is that in Saint Louis you get those cold, cold winters and my guess you probably remember those close to Chicago winters that you get. And it's just something sweet about not having to get back out in frigid temperatures when they say for g for the love of God, don't go outside and you gotta go outside 'cause I mean fires don't say we're gonna take the winter off. They actually increase in the winter time. So So there we go. But with that being said, it's a lot of parts of the fire service I miss in in retirement. And I've been talking to a few friends about this subject and one of the friends I talked to about it was my good friend retired chief Forrest Reader. And Forrest and I have been friends for a long time, probably now over ten years now, and consider how long I've been part of the International Society of Fire Surface Instructors, as we like to call in the business. I SFSI. You gotta really say it real fast, otherwise you mess up the I and S, but but anyway, that being said, we have established a a a great not just a great work relationship but a great friendship as well. But for us and I'm on similar paths now as far as being retired from our official jobs with all the brass and the the rank and all that. And now we're helping the fire service in other ways. And so retirement looks good in that sense for what we do because of our love for the fire service. However, i that that kind of, you know, segue into that type of retirement isn't for everyone. And someone may find other things after the fire service to do that makes them just as effective in that respect of thing. Maybe you race greyhounds or something. I don't know. You know, maybe you Maybe you, were want to always to be a barber and you opened up a barber shop or something. Yeah, whatever it is. Do the best you could do at it. But part of the reason I bring that up is because one of the things for us I have discussed and the reason we want to kinda have this this talk is because the fire services can get so entrenched into you that you tend to think like this is all there is. And once the adrenaline's over, the call's over, the camaraderie, the family, the excitement of it all is over, then sometime there are some out there who f who feel like they don't still have a purpose. The whole purpose is wrapped up into their identity as a firefighter. Yeah, all the respect you get, or all the benefits you get of being a firefighter. And when you're retired and it sneaks up on you real quick, you may have trouble finding new purposes. if you weren't already planning for it. So tonight, ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls, cats and kittens, we're gonna talk about what we call the personal succession plan. Yes. And and it's going to be hosted by me, Larry Connolly. That's where the applause comes in. thank you. Thank you. And and and then we're gonna talk be talking about with somebody I respect deeply in the fire service, my good friend, retired chief forest reader. So this is called a personal succession plan. And hopefully during this conversation we can talk about some things that we personally or ex are in the middle of experiencing now. Some things that we can share that may can help you and let you know that whether you choose the fire service to continue to be a part of in other capacities outside of running calls or running departments, you know, whether you choose to do it that way or whether you choose to do it another way. have some kind of personal succession plan and do it before ideally before you retire. And if you do that, you can just sail right on into it. Don't have to start from scratch. It doesn't have to be a shock to your system that go from one thing to another because It's one thing to always just be, running calls and the adrenaline and then that automatically s just all just stops. And once it stops, you become a normal person. You're like, Well, how do I be normal? Because my identity's always been wrapped up in my ability to fight fires. So the central message is here we spend our careers preparing others to take our position, but how much time do we spend preparing ourselves for the life that follows? And that's the central theme of what we'll be talking about tonight. So hopefully some of the takeaways will be how your successful transition. It may require more than just thinking about because most of the time we think about, well, how am I gonna manage my pension or how much money am I gonna get? And that's it. But you don't realize do you manage your purpose with that same intensity? So you get it requires just as much intentional planning as your pension, you know, where talk about your relationships, your identity, your purpose, your health, your contribution, your legacy. So we're gonna touch all that tonight. So let's talk to my friend Forrest Reeder. Forrest, how you doing, brother? Thanks, Uncle Lair for giving me the chance to talk, talk with you. Any time spent with you makes me better. Makes all of us better, I believe. So that was my line. I was gonna say that. No, thank you for the gift of your time, my friend. That cherished moments every time, whether it's five minutes or a text or phone call or you know, catching up at a conference at Always time well spent, talking with you and, everybody in your family. You're magic people doing good stuff. So, thanks for the chance to chat about a great topic tonight. This was this was a good one. You really spoke to me, when you said, Hey, let's talk about this and though I've been a short timer in the retirement game, it's it's it's definitely had its ups and downs and I'll Obviously, we'll talk I think at length about probably a little bit of both all those things as we go. But yeah, no, it you know, a great career behind us and you know a a greater life after. Yeah, most definitely. It's all how it's all on your outlook. You know, you can talk about the accomplishments what's behind you or you can definitely look forward to what's ahead of you and and it's all based on your outlook on it. So we all know that for us is a nationally recognized Fire service educator, author, instructor, and consultant. He's spent more than four decades helping firefighters and officers become better at what they do. He's the recipient recipient of the ISFSI George D. Post Instructor of the Year Award and has and we both had the privilege of teaching the FDIC International and serving within the International Society of Fire Service Instructors. And I just gave you the f short version because we w it would take a minute, it would take almost an hour to talk about all the Forrest's accomplishments. And let me tell you this, the reason w one of the main reasons he's when I look at my firefighter hero list and Forrest is on that short list, is because I was reading Forest Reader's stuff before I actually met the man. You know how you read people's stuff? That's the good stuff. This guy, you know, know what he's talking about and it helped you, you know, do your job better or help you advance and things. So when you finally get to meet them and you're like, wow. Now, early in my meeting of instructors when I became an instructor and started kind of branching out outside of my local my local department and and and local area, I started meeting people and I thought they was gonna have this kind of like, well you know who I am, I'm forest reader, you know, and you're like, man, this this guy was kind of pompous. But one thing about I can say about Forrest is that he can he could put together a a dynamic program, a dynamic book, a dynamic concept, teaching that would change your life. But then you can sit down and kick back and have a beer with him. And it's just like, you know, he ain't the same person who wrote that stuff. And I love that about that kind of balance in him and a lot of the leaders in the business. So I c always appreciate that. Forrest when I first start talking about the personal succession plan, And and and from you know, we were kind of tossing back and forth. You know what I was talking about, but just at at the core of of thought, what what did that mean to you when I say a personal succession plan? Yeah, Larry, I I I think the fire service is kinda unusual in you know, compared to a lot of other occupations that it it as I think for most people it it it really consumes every fiber of every part of your life. from the day you raise the right hand and start the academy to the day that you walk between the rank and file out to, the the the car at the end of the, the the line or something like that. And so it a as a occupation that defines so much of who we are, on duty, off duty, things like that, it you know, really is something that, you know, i if if if you don't think about the what comes next. piece of it. you know, I you know, the succession plan, obviously you hear a lot about that when you're in the business and things like that. You know, succession plans, you talk about, you know, who comes next or next person up or whatever it's gonna be and things like that as it goes. But you know, what what intrigued me about, you know, the you know, the conversation that, you know, you know, that we're looking forward to here is, you know, what what what is the next? And you know, a lot of us, you know, we're retiring from something instead of towards something. And and probably if I can, give any any really good takeaway is is that, my perspective, many of the guys that I've worked with, Larry, we've got a lot of friends in common and things like that from, the different circles that we've taught in and worked in and talked in, and the brotherhood that we've we've built, since we, become acquainted and things like that. And all of us, pretty much at the same age and all of us, probably at the same transition in our careers from one thing to the other. And, we we we think, when we're sitting in the chair. you know, well who you know, what what do I have to do to prepare the next person to be successful? What what what is the transition, the succession plan there to, you know, here's twenty five things that they have to know and they have to be able to do well and things like that. And then all of a sudden you you you walk down that rank and file and and and you look behind and like, ooh, you know, well wow, what what what is the next and what what you know, what did I retre retire towards? And, you know, obviously that that can take a lot of different angles. It can take a lot of different viewpoints and things like that. Some people, when thirty is up or twenty is up, or may maybe it's just gonna be a a a short time for somebody who's volunteered to serve in the you in the in in this great profession and things like that, just even a a short time, some people are are ready and they're they're not gonna look back. But the the baggage that the job carries and the the overwhelming amount of responsibility and always being on, I I I I think you and I have talked about that in a a couple of different arenas and things that you know to always be on, you know, even when there isn't a call and things like that is is, you know, something that that that takes a toll. So you know, the the personal succession plan is, you know, i is is really I I think a you know, maybe in some cases a lifesaver for you know people and then and it's gonna be something that will, you know, shape, you know, perspective and you know, may maybe Maybe we should have had this conversation ten years ago there. May maybe we should have, you know, taken a look at, you know, because as we get into other things and, you know, maybe the other thing is, you know, finding another fire service job. Maybe the other thing is going to be a related or allied field or something like that. Or maybe it's just gonna be, you know, throttling down to be with the, you know, family and friends and the grandkids and other retirees and things like that, taking vacations and, you know, maybe getting in an R V and driving out to Arizona for the wintertime. So yeah, you you you can get away from, you know, the the midwestern snow and then the weather and things like that. So No, definitely. You know, I I I really like the you know, r retiring towards something and having a goal and having something so that you're not faced with that, you know, holy cow, you know, two weeks two weeks from now is gonna be my last day. What comes next? Right. You know th those thoughts I think need to be, very, very front loaded when it comes to, where a person is in their career and what's gonna happen next. Yeah, I think it takes the it takes the anxiety out a lot like you said, when you are retiring towards something because when you're looking toward something the the next episode and you kinda you you really are not kinda, but you're clear what that's gonna look like. it it takes kinda the fear out of where you are because otherwise it can be a a daunting process and it and if you feel like you're starting from scratch, like you said, two weeks from now I'm not gonna have this job, but you don't have a a solid game plan, not that, you know, I'll probably just do some fishing or hang out or do what the wife says or whatever. You don't have a solid game plan of what's next. it can be very daunting, you know. So I I like that their phrasing of retiring to something because it's it's a f forward moving action, you know, action word, so to speak, action phrase or whatever. And becoming a w as a firefighter, you know, I saw this is how I saw myself. You do this thing for thirty three years like I did, you it is that's the better part of your life, you know. And Yeah, I didn't know it was a job I was gonna fall in love with. When I first got the job, I w I wasn't that guy chasing behind fire trucks when I was a kid and I didn't go ride with my dad on the on the brig and then show up and then watch him and and and axe up in the window putting out a fire and then the the the ceiling came down and his helmet came falling out the window and I picked up the helmet and I was on the cup of Life Nat magazine. Then none of that happened to me. that that sounds like that could be like the the beginning of a good movie or something like that. Boy, you you you you you scrap you scripted that really, really well there, didn't you? Yeah, it sounded like I'm talking bull. Yeah. But but seriously, but it did become a a a great a big part of me. And so then, you know, I retired from St. Louis, became a deputy chief of another organization, and then found myself dealing with unexpected end to that chapter. And then but you know what it taught me is that you could be finished with a position and not necessarily finished with your purpose, you know, because I still had a purpose driven mentality of how much time I actually had left and and that and it didn't work out that way. So so I knew that intellectually but living through it now is is is two different things. So you know w when you think about And yours had a more planned exit than mine did. But when when did you first realize that the day would come that you weren't chief reader anymore? Yeah, so the you know, the the the the the programmed exit. You know, like like you know, I I I think I had a few more, you know, years where where I was at, you know, still still on the tank. But, you know, it was just ch you know, time for a little bit of a change there and you know, I found opportunity to do some interim fire chief, positions afterwards there just just to finish out and round out, a few of the things that I wanted to try and accomplish and things like that. And you know, I you know, there I I I think there's a a a a difference, you know, in in somebody losing a position or losing purpose and things like that. And and they're they're they're certainly not synonymous in, you know, that that something is going to replace the time that you spend at the firehouse, the time that you spend you know, with the firefighters and things like that. And, you know, I I think the earlier you find that, you know, within your career, you know, the better you can build that that type of a system. Cause, you know, like, you know, like what what what we're doing here is is that you know, all of these are little contributions that if you choose, you you can make those things a little bit as you go along. You can depart and do something completely different, like you said, be you know, the championship fisherman or be the championship, you know. grandparent or, brother or sister or, friend to your neighbors and things like that. And I I I think probably one of the best lessons that, you know, I I I kind of learned, you know, pretty quick in into the retirement, you know, phase phase of life, I I think was is how much I neglected during my career. I I thought I was doing a pretty good job of managing, you know, the kids and, you know, the family and things like that. And, you know, then I bought this crazy R V to, travel around the country and things like that. And I I got to think that, boy, look look at all those years that, literally I was I would I was turning back vacation time and I was, you know, getting, you know, towards the end of a cycle and I'd have a couple extra days in the bank and things like that. And there w there was always something on the work side of things that, you know, maybe kept me from maximizing some of the great things that you know that I can do right now, getting out and traveling and seeing all the different states, seeing all the different places and things like that. And, if if if maybe again going back in time a little bit, I would have, you know, maybe spent a little bit more time, you know, doing that instead of letting a an all-consuming profession consume you. I'm I'm I guess might be a a way to look at that. And you know, this kind of series of experiments that's occurred since the full time, job has has gone away. And, the in the interim positions obviously were full time as well. But, still working around those, each of those had a, a definitive start and stop date, kind thing as they went along there and, had the opportunity to, make additional connections, additional friendships, through those things. still to this day, even those short, little stints there have yielded what I hope to be lifelong friendships with the people that we touch in this business and things that may like that. And it as you look at the experiments, you know, just in in retrospect, you know, what what energizes you? What, you know, what things are you good at? What things do you believe people value from you that you can contribute, you know, in other people's lives and things like that? what do I want to do more of? what what am I ready to stop doing? Yeah, you know, th those are all, you know, kind of those little, you know, experiments that that kind of go along that certainly were not things that I thought of, five, six years ago when, the retirement opportunity started, started to sit in front of us there. What would you tell somebody whose identity is entirely wrapped up in being a firefighter? yeah, no, and I I I think I can speak within our circle here. We probably were a couple of those guys, right, Lark? You know, much of what we did. And you know I I I enjoy the heck out of watching you and you know look looking at the Corvette. club and and your travels and things like that that you're doing and and how, that energizes you. I I I I can see from your post, I can see from your pictures. I I can see from not just the Corvette side of things, but just your interest in cars and you know, your college football pitchers and things like that. And, you know, I I I can very, you know, clearly see the things that know, energize you and and and and bring you joy and happiness and things like that. And you know, all of those things that you know you you can share you know with others. I'm I'm sure within the you know a certain certain spaces too, those are things you can do just by yourself. Right. You know, that you don't have to be surrounded with, you know, ten ten firefighters in a firehouse to, you know, get the enjoyment out of you know, get the enjoyment out of a a football game or things like that or to be sitting side by side with somebody with, another, pretty cool Corvette like yours or whatever. You I I I betcha you you have a lot more time invested into getting you know, getting yellow ready there, you know, to to go out for the shows than than any part of a actually sitting at the show, right? Yeah, right, right, right. It's preparation. Yeah, there there's always a gadget. Yeah, there there's always a gadget. There's always something that you know that that that will go, you know, go go towards those things. So it it it is a study in contrast. you know, being ready to leave, versus, you know, having to leave. You know, you know, I I I've seen a lot of firefighters, you know, really, you know, kind of, you know, facing that fork in the road. Some some guys are ready to leave. You know, I've had enough, you know, all all of the cumulative types of things, the job changing, the expectations, maybe physically, mentally, socially not able to, to do the job in any anywhere or, others, at the at the other side of the fork, fork, re ready to leave versus having to leave. well I no, I I think I was still firing on all cylinders and, I aged out, I timed out. it was it was time for me to get out of the way to to to to let somebody else, take take take over the position that I was in. So and then then the then the what's next, and and the the irresistible urge I I think for many people to you know to to look at what your old departments are doing and how they're growing and how they're changing and you know, though th those types of things, you know, looking at the profession, you know, to to see what you know is growing and changing. You know, I I I think everybody can agree it looks different now than than it did when we came on and yeah, I'm pretty sure Our seniors and and our, the people above us, I'm I I know they had the same conversations that we have, about the new, the new workforce and the demands of society and the demands of the job and things like that. So, you know, you're you're gonna leave friends behind. You know, you're you're gonna leave friends of you know, friends or you know, that that extended family, you know, that the that the other business have, you know, you know, that you know, that that that we have is is part of that. But I I think through s just giving giving that space and giving that opportunity, you'll you'll be suppli you're surprised how quickly you can move on and you can, let that personal succession plan actually, you c come to fruition. Mm. finding that next sense of purpose, that next, thing to go is, you know, you know, you know, probably a lot easier than you know, lot lot a lot of people are you know think it's gonna be. In in that vein, what would you say? I know like if you were still the Fire chief and you were thinking succession plan, you would probably have an idea of the timeline, like, you know, how many years out, how many months out, whatever like that, to start like saying, I want to condition the next, you know, my heir parent to it, or or at least get my bench ready for who's up next type of deal. And so you would have an idea with that. So with that, I'm sure you have idea. a ballpark, I'm sure it's different from different people depending on the scope of their departments. But what would you say is a i is idea and and of course we haven't you know, I'm not saying it's based on any kind of definitive research because we're basically just talking b from our experiences now. But what would you say is a good timeline to maybe start thinking like, you know, I need to start putting some things in place, not just financially. But start putting some things in place that when I am ready to go, I'm ready to go. Because it sounds like a great idea. But what what are some some concrete things as close as you can? because like I said, it'll be different for everyone, but as close as you can, what do you think is a good timeline to say, let me start working on that now? Not in a way that it interferes with my current responsibilities, but it does look out for me as I'm moving through. toward retiring towards something. Yeah, no, that's a that that that's a great question. I I I think in in part you you you said it that it's obviously gonna be different for, for everybody and again those who, you know, have to versus want to, you know, you know, le leave the profession and things like that. It's gonna look a little bit different. I I I I think the I I think it really kind of comes down to, you know, what, you know E each person and and do they want to continue in the business and and doing some things like that? But it it's gotta be within that five to ten years out. You know, you know, deciding what you wanna keep and what you wanna leave behind. That that might be another way to to to kind of look at that, you know, that that piece of the puzzle, you know. you know, I want I wanna keep you know, teaching, mentoring, writing, doing things like that. I wanna stay engaged a little bit as we go along. other times you may want to leave some of the other stuff behind. You want to leave behind maybe, the twenty-four hour availability piece of of of what we have to do. that that that that is a big deal. And that hasn't really very little to do with volunteer or career or paid on call or part time or anything in between. It's this this profession is a lot about being in in that, position of being available twenty-four hours. that could be, hey, can you come in and pick up an overtime or can you cover the station or whatever, or can it be the pager going off, or or is it, you know, once you're in the station and just just waiting for the tones to drop and the bells to go off and things like that. So, you know, if if you know you're not planning for, you know, that change and and for some it's going to be a very, very, very difficult, you know, change and transition. You know, a lot of us I d identify how our identity. I don't know if that's good English or not, identifier identity or whatever whatever they're you know to to be that of just fire service. But, you know, we're we're all, I think, you know, much, much bigger and much more important than than than than than just the title of a firefighter. We're you know, we're friends and family to people. You've you know got family, you know, support that is counting on you. And, you know, maybe in in in some situations and you know some some camps Maybe they're looking forward to your retirement more than you are. You know, because they get you. You know, they're they're they're gonna be able to get you and they're gonna be able to have that, you know, opportunity, you know, to do those things. So I don't know. I you know, all of a sudden when it's you know, you're on the countdown and again speaking from the career perspective, because that's you know, that that's that's my frame of areno reference and and conversation is, you know, I I probably knew the, you know retirement was going to come, to me and, probably two to three years before it happened. you know, I saw some changes coming just in in the organization I was at that, you know, I I didn't think there was going to be room for me to do the things that I wanted to do and things like that. And things were going to change. And, you know, so at that point I I started to think about that. You know, what what is going to be, you know, my my grandpa career going to look like? What is going to be the amount of time I can travel and get out and do things? Do I still want to stay connected to the business by, you know, teaching and writing and and and doing, you know, geez, you know, you know, podcasts weren't a thing five years ago there. Right. They they you know, they they were out there, but you know, you know, just you know, in engaging in in those, you know, kind of things and you know, and you know, still being available. You know, there there's there's friendships and family you're you're walking from that you still I believe in many situations you you still want to be available to people to you know to be that that retired guy going to the retiree's breakfast or or that guy that they can, you know, lean on a little bit, you know, see, you know, what what what is the way that I become better, faster, safer, and smarter. you know, in in in what we do. See you you know, knew I had to drop it in there at some point. My little mission my my little mission there for us, right? So you know, I I I don't if that's, you know, you know, really the best answer there, but you know I I just I just don't want people just all of a sudden to you know, sixty days out or whatever, start thinking about well what what what's gonna happen next. And right, you know, it it it needs to be front loaded, you know, maybe now more than ever. And you know, the financial piece is only a small, small piece of you know, what's going to take up your time when so much of your time is invested in in in in the business here. No, I think you got a good point there. And and I think like I said it it is so But it's it can insidiously creep up on you because and I think it's got something to do with our work schedule. I mean you work in some cases, depending on your department, ten days a month or less or maybe a little more. So you always got this, you know, like I gotta go to work but I don't really work every day grind type of deal. And the next thing you know it's a year. A year has passed, another year has passed and I can't tell you how many times I've told people before you look up, you know, a new new guy. is gonna be or or a new gal is gonna be five years and then they blink in this five years and you know, you do that you know, six times. You know, you go, you know, you have a career, you know, so it's it could be you know, it could be that it could catch up with you that quick. And I think that's why it's important to have those relationships outside of the fire service or try to figure out who are you if you weren't a firefighter. And then maybe that's a hard question because people like the like the whole lifetime movie answer. Like, no, I was I was born to do this and whatever, you know. And and and and I'm sure there's a good segment of people who are. But I think there's also a good segment of people who are just good people who no matter what profession they are in, they're gonna work hard and excel at it. And if you send firefighter down that pipeline, they become that. maybe if they work in another profession, they would be excellent at that. So they're just excellent people at their core. W with that being the case, then, you know, maybe one of the things is you could be excellent segueing into other things so you all your eggs won't be in the basket. And it's nothing wrong with all your eggs being in the firefighter basket, as long as it it When it ends, you don't end with it. I i in sense, you know, in a in a lot of ways, f especially in a lot of unfortunate ways, 'cause you and I've talked about how, you know, we we've kind of figured some people have burned out and made maybe some permanent decisions because they don't have they don't feel like they have purpose anymore as they did when they're heyday of being a firefighter, you know. And so you don't want that that to be your case and figure and then make sure you figure out what else you can be. But be a good person first and be a good person first. that can segue into many other things beyond the fire service or help you to contribute in the way that continues to help the fire service as well because it's it is it's great to be able to help, but I just didn't want people to walk away thinking that if you don't do similar things like Forrest and myself are doing other instructors and and and teachers and authors are doing that you don't have a purpose. You do have a purpose. It just doesn't have to be exactly looking like this. It can be whatever you decide to do. What what about you, Lar? What w what when when did you start thinking about leaving the city and things like that and and what came next? What what point was your like hey I'm gonna thirty years is coming pretty quickly. did you s think about that around year fifteen or did you think about that year twenty nine? Well part of the reason we're having this conversation because I didn't think about it as well as I wanted is in retrospect, you know. In retrospect I was thinking that, you know, he's gonna do this forever because when you've been doing it for so long, you just think I still got it, you know. I think the thing that kind of fortunately saved me is I unconsciously when I started teaching, instructing and and getting all those credentials to do that, that almost by default set me up for contributing to the fire service other than physically fighting fires. And since that was the case, I didn't give a lot of thought to what my succession plan was gonna be because I felt like well if I'm not fighting fires, I'm always be teaching. And since I knew I was always gonna be teaching, it it it wasn't a as hard of a transition for me. I think if I wasn't an instructor or I wasn't teaching or wasn't, you know, authoring articles or contributing to people's books, I feel like that I might have been at a kinda felt like I ran into a brick wall and had to start from scratch. So having the the blessing of of already doing my p because you know, even doing when I was actively in the firehouse on the administration, you know, some especially in the firehouse, the question would sometime come up, like, well, you know, why are doing all this teaching? You know, you're a firefighter, you know, just like be satisfied with that, you know, what's with all this this traveling and teaching thing you're doing. And and I'm glad I kind of stuck to not necessarily listening to naysayers and that because it did set me up the segue into, you know, continuing to do what I do now. So I was blessed in that sense that not necessarily intentional, but it worked out that way. And I know it just the way it did work out. without being intentional it very well could have went the other way where I would have been now scratching my head saying, Well what am I gonna do now? Because this was my identity, So it still is. I just give to do it in a different way. And so I'm blessed in that regard. You made some interesting points in your notes that if everything falls apart after we leave, that may not demonstrate how valuable we are, it may demonstrate how dependent the organization had become on us. You wanna talk about that a little bit? may may maybe if we, kinda kinda capture things just just let let's just say five years. So five years out from retirement. what what are the things that that that really if you're the the person who walks the higher the higher path and the the the longer road and things like that, I'd would say num number one is of of of the, maybe the three point plan, the five years out here is number one is is to build your successor. You know, that you know, we we hear, you know, a lot of times, you know, le leave it better than you found it and things like that. And that that that's easy that's easy to say and you know, if you know, it it has nothing to do with, you know, at any any specific rank or things like that. But there there there's gotta be somebody around you, somebody within the station, somebody within the department, somebody within you know, j just your circle of peers and things like that that, you know, should be prepared to you know, to to be your successor. So, you know, part of the personal succession plan is, you know, yes, it is part of that. It it is to prepare your successor, you know, when when you're ready to leave the job. So, you know, finding may maybe it's one, maybe it's a dozen or what what whatever whatever it's gonna be is is is we owe it to the organization. We owe it to ourselves, we owe it to, those who are are gonna follow behind us here to, leave a legacy that, has prepared, people to, you know, pick up and you know, pick the ball up you know, where you're leaving it and and and to move on. And you know, and and and while you're doing that is is is also to, you know, to build your next chapter, you know, not not after retirement, but you know the five years prior to retirement, you know, start to build out that, you know, that that that you know what that next chapter is gonna look like. You have you know all the time you see on Facebook when you see somebody doing a walk out and, you know, hey, you know, en enjoy the next chapter. Enjoy what's next. And you know, you know, that that that's kind of a common I I betcha, you know, Facebook or, you know, Instagram or the social medias and things. I I I betcha, you know, when when w when you're you know responding to somebody's retirement, I betcha that's a you know that that that's one of the you know the pre-built statements that that'll populate for you. Exactly. When it comes to that, then you know, so you know, before the next chapter comes, I I you know, I I I I think you need to, you know, ha have an idea what section in the bookstore you're gonna go to. You know, is it is it gonna be sports? Is it gonna be fiction? Is it gonna be a horror story? Is it gonna be a mystery or you know what yeah you know it's like you know whatever it's gonna be and you know you know start exploring those interests and opportunities you know before you know before retirement forces that decision for you to do that so so if you you know build your successor if you build your next chapter and then you start building your life you know out out outside the job and you know making sure you're protecting your family protecting your friendships your health, your hobbies, your interests and and and things like that. I I I I really believe that in the five years, you know, that that you know, it might be leading up to retirement if if if you know what that day has to be because of pension or because of age or because of, you know, being fed up to, you know, whatever level with politics and you know, you know, what what what whatever's going on with the business and things like that. you know, I I you know, don't don't spend, you know don't don't don't spend the last, final years of your working life counting down the shifts. Right. You a lot of a lot of guys, a lot of guys have said it right on the phone here and they'll have the countdown, you know, to the walkout day and time like that. And I I I think in in in part that's, you know, done maybe in jest or maybe kind of rubbing it in, poking it on the guys who, you know, don't don't get to take that walk and things like that. But you know, I'd I'd I'd prefer that, you know, you know, people are, you know, more intentional, you know, with with that time. in in terms of moving towards mo moving towards that exit strategy and and things like that. So I I don't know if if if that, you know, directly answers the question there, but that, you know, r you know, really to me that that that's kind of the you know, the the important part to me is is, you know, how do we take, you know, five years, ten years out from retirement or whatever and how does that, you know, come together? I I I think that's it is to legitimately do the succession plan organizationally and and you know within your department and things like that. Make sure that, the continuity of of operations can continue no matter what the rank and whatever the position. you know, being a good person, like you said before, you know, just just good human skills, you know, require that instead of just closing the door and, you know, walking out the door. I'm I'm sure you've seen your share of guys like I have that that have, you know, literally you know, I I can give you a short list of some guys who basically no notice and they never came back to work. Right, right, right. Yeah. And and and that was it. Or, good luck, you'll figure it out, ki kind of thing. And then then others have, you know, built some fairly detailed, you know, plans and you know, what what whatever that looks like that you know, that that that's fine. That that that's a personal choice. But you know, but to that end then then fill out the other two pieces, you know, that that next chapter and and you know, start reading up on it and getting ready for it, you know, before Holy cow, the phone says it's gonna be here in in in just a few short weeks or months or just a couple of years or whatever and and to get ahead of it and and and and to build that life outside the job, you know, as as early as we can. You know, we're we're blessed with, you know, pension or you know, some you know, different more you know, what whatever the systems are in the career fire service or you know, what what whatever those avenues afford us. But you know, it's it's it's a heck of a lot more than that. Yeah. when it comes to your succession plan and things like that is is, what what what is next and knowing it and being able to move towards that and and I'm I'm hoping looking forward to doing that. Yeah, exactly. Look like I said, retiring towards something instead of from something. Mm-hmm. Right. And definitely if our leadership was successful, the organization should continue growing after our name comes out the door and that's and that's to me the best testament of how well of a job you did, you know, you can look back and say, you know, man, you guys are doing it. You know, everything looks good and everything's even better than maybe if I was still there, you know, still still everything is still great. So I think that's a great testament to a successful succession plan. hey I I I agree with that completely, you know, and and you know again that know, you you want the job to continue, you want people to do well after after you're gone and that there is what what what did it say on the on on the city patch? Justifiably proud, right? And justifiably proud. Justifiably proud in what we do in this business and in retirement I want to remain justifiably proud of the people that I prepared and the organization that I've left behind and definitely. that you you you see the good news, you see a promotion, you see those guys out making a good stop on a job or whatever they're you you hear that they're, adding staffing, they're adding stations, they're buying new rigs, I I I hope that brings a smile to you know to you know to to you know to each of us, you know, knowing that the organization, you know, kinda kinda the old you know, I I don't you know, I I don't even know what to classify it as, but You got a bucket of water and that represents your career and all everything around it there. And you stick your fist down in there and you're, the center of that universe or whatever. And you know, when when that thirty years or when when the time comes to walk away from the job, you you pull your fist out of the bucket of water and it there there's not gonna be a hole there or just waiting, you know, slowly little drops falling, you know, falling into you know, the hold that was left. It it it's gonna be what? It's going to be a you know, a a waterfall. You're it it it will happen that quickly, whether you like it or not. It it's going to happen that quickly that, the the gap that you think you're leaving behind. Right. you know, it's it's pretty quickly it's gonna be Forrest Who, Larry Who, David Who. Right. what what's his name will be say. Exactly. Don't you know, don't let it hit you on the ass. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I like the part that you said, you you've talked about your experience should be a become an asset and not a museum. And that's a pretty powerful statement. We I think about that a lot because a lot of times I collect I got a lot of stuff I've collected over there. I'm doing a lot of cleaning out lately. And I see a lot of things that I think about putting on the wall or kinda, you know, portraying, of the accomplishments. But then I realize that even though it's fun to kind of reminisce about some it, I don't want it to be like that was know, that i these relics or something that's that I wanna put in the forefront to celebrate. I want to be a great memory, but I also wanna continue to be an asset going forward in other ways, be it like you said, my grandchildren or be it being a good friend or be it you know, just like you mentioned the Corvette. I know I'll be, you know, traveling a couple of more shows before our season is over here in the Midwest. course if I lived in a tropical place it'd probably be a little longer but but but naturally I should come to Arizona or something, but yeah, yeah. But just being able to, as you say it, you know, do something you enjoy, without I I don't show up at at shows saying I'm Chief Conley. I'm just a guy named Larry with a with a Corvette. And and I enjoy that part of it because you know, when you are dynamic or try to feed the dynamic person you are, then whether it's about, you know, a hobby like that or whether it's about the time that you spend with family, whether it's about, you know, you know, the quality person you're trying to be. that's just one part of who you are. I used to say a long time ago, you know, Larry is who I am and, you know, Captain Chief Firefighter is what I do. And when you keep in that proper perspective, I think that goes a long way in helping with your personal succession plan because it's not totally wrapped up into this title that that once was based on all your, you know, history and who do you continue to evolve to be. And if it's not chief or if it's not whatever your title was, is it still a quality person that you've evolved to be? And that can go a long way in helping you pick something or redefining your purpose and living the new purpose that you're retiring toward. And I think that's something that, you know, all of us need to continue to do some personal inventory and meditate and move forward on that so we don't lose ourselves in the fact that the first that portion of the fire service is gone. That portion of my life looks different now and now something else needs to be needs to be in place so I can continue to live a quality life, you know. I like that. No, I yeah I I know you Chief John Buckman. Chief Buckman, you know, a good friend of the ISFSI and friend you know he I probably like a lot of guys I was I was watching what other guys did, you know, people I looked up to and what what they did when they retired. my my my circle of of peers, you know, Chief Buckman, Chief Jim Grady, Chief Bob Buse, you there they're there there's a bunch of guys within, you know, the Illinois and the Midwestern Fire Service that I you know looked up to quite a bit. And, you know, when when I I you know, I I cause I still see it today, 'cause John and I still correspond on and things like that, different projects and, you know, teaching with them next, you know, next month down in Florida, you know, on a little program with the with the V Cost group and things like that. And when when John retired, I I kinda looked at him and and what he did and it it's still because I I saw it again the other day and I I brings a smile to my face is that, John was one of the guys who could have put, the alphabet soup, from from here to, you know, a mile down the road of all the different things he's accomplished, you know, past president of the International Fire Chiefs, the you know, every everything in between, you know, you know, from you know, all his work in Indiana to, you know, all the other stuff that that he's done and literally the the day the day he retired, his signature line on his emails changed. And then you know what the first thing he he had on there? What was that? Grandfather. Right. It said grandfather, grandfather, photographer, and all of these other things that that went to that other other point in terms of you know, that that that's who he was without the title of fire chief or fire chief emeritus or past president of the International Fire Chiefs and things like that. his his purpose continued in in in that, you know, he was a liaison, he you know, emeritus, and you know, you know, as a you know, assisted in a lot of other areas and things like that. But you know, John is a photographer, you know, continues to contribute and and and that's where a great hobby, you know, being a fire photographer, yeah, you know, pays, you know, tremendous dividends and the stuff that's done. But that, you know, you know, to me and you know, I I I wish I could remember I don't know when when that was, but that that literally was one of the moments that that I actually did start to think about the well what what is my purpose after? You know, you know, who who am I gonna be without the title of you know, battalion or division or chief or firefighter, whatever what whatever it was gonna be and things like that. And you know, so you know the the the kinda kinda the other skill I think that kinda goes along here too, Larry, is is is the ability to say no and and not unless you really have to or want to, is is is to build a another full time job. I've I've seen, some some mutual friends of ours are I I can even say it myself right now, you know, just just in a little cycle that I'm going through is that I'm I'm busier now than I than I was with working, full a full time job, with different projects and different things that you know I I tell you know tell my Bridget all the time that you know hey you know the phone is ringing I've got to answer it now because one of these days it's not gonna ring anymore and then then it will really be you know who I who I am without the title and things like that as it goes. So you know again I I I hope people find purpose in in in what their legacy was when when when they're gone. what what parts of the organization are shaped by you that continue on after after you're gone. You know, may you know, maybe maybe it's gonna be something goofy. you know, well maybe in some cases it's gonna be the SOP that has your name on it or whatever. Or a past practice, you know, in the contract. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Imagine that. You know, or a past practice in the contract or something like that or whatever it's gonna be. But, you know, I I I hope for all of us that that there there is something as as part of your succession plan that you can look back and say that well that that that's something that, that that I contributed that, that they still do today. They, they they are better, faster, safer, and smarter because of the time I spent there with them and and and maybe showing them, you know, that way and that as it went along. So you know, again, I I hope I looks like we're, coming near the the end of our time here, Larry. I and and again I I I think you're right with the you know, this this conversation and these thoughts have to start sooner than later, you know, for you know, for most people. You know, just to kind of get us in the position to actually, you know, figure out what you know, what what your identity is gonna be, what that purpose is gonna be, the boundaries. I I think we both had it in our little notes as we were, you know, getting ready here is is the ability to say no is is a great magic power now. Mm-hmm. and and not having to, you know, to to do everything that that you know that comes across and that that's that's a pretty cool thing and a little bit of a change. Yeah. I think when you are are deaf or or def definitive about your purpose it's easy to see what to say yes to and what to say no to when you have a you know defined yes in in in your system. So it's easy to know what to say yes and no to. to your point earlier about people being good people, one thing that's a personal story of mine, and I never will forget it, when I lost Ben Pulson, who was a firefighter on my crew, you know, you and Bobby Haldin very busy people, people who have rank, title, respect and and and just like I said, busy people. And I remember the thing that touched me the most and there's lot of great stories out there of things where people reached out. you know, I I I don't have the time to go into it. That's for another I really wanna continue this subject matter probably in a part two because I still got a lot of great notes I think that we can cover that really can help people but we don't have the time today. But but one of the great stories that came out of that that helped me personally get through that tragedy is that Bobby drove in from Tulsa and you drove in from Chicago and and and outside of that and you outs outside of being as busy as you are and and anything, you could you could have called and said, Hey, my condolences or sent a card or you know, whatever, but you you showed up and as and you didn't show up, you know, I'm I'm a chief, showed up, you showed up as a friend. who happen to be chiefs and I never will forget that. And sometimes just simply showing up is you know, is just a a great part of being who you are. It wasn't anything but you being Forrest and Bobby at that point. And and and and that's why we say there can be different dynamics to who you are, you know. And and and that dynamic I really appreciate and would never forget it. I know the people who know you on the fire our St. Louis Fire Department at the time, won't forget it either. I've never I never will forget it. but that goes to your point about being, you know, just being a good person, period. And not totally defined by, you know, your rank and all. as we start to wrap this up, like I say, I think we're gonna we might do a part two on this because I mean else it's a There's a lot of great stuff that I hate I'm missing talking about now, but I wanna respect people's time and and spec respect your time as well. But I think I wanna leave people with, you know, identifying this and I had to set up so we could talk about it, but at least people listening or people watching can can maybe ponder these and answering themselves. Identity, who are you without your title? Think about that. Purpose. what work or activities matter enough that I would choose to do them. Transfer, what knowledge, relationships and opportunities should I pass on before I'm leaving before you leaving? Boundaries, how much of my formal profession do I wanna into in my next chapter? You know, only you can answer that. Legacy, what should other people be able to do better because I was there? And I think if you can answer those, you know, answer yourself those questions and present those before you leave, I think you gotta it it'd be a good segue for you leaving things better than you found it and hopefully you segueing into what you're retiring to instead of what you're retiring from. What you're retiring from will be love better and what you're retiring to is going to satisfy you and your family and your loved ones a lot better so you won't feel lost. One last question I wanted to ask the forest reader is this when the title is gone I s hope people still know me as Somebody who was there for You know, somebody who tried to make you know, make make a little bit better by, you know, being supportive by you know, you know, hopefully you know, maybe showing what right was you know, what right looks like and trying to stay on the you know, the path to, you know, doing the stuff that you know, that we have to do. Mm-hmm. You know, that that you know that that that's a tough one. That that's like a bourbon thirty, you know. can can a question out on out on the deck around the fire pit that we can kinda go back through and I I betcha there's a lot of lanes we could go down with that, to to you know, to your coworkers, to the people that you worked for, you know, meaning leadership in the organization or or within the community, to your family, you know, to the to your friends and neighbors and things like that, to the you know, the community at large and and things like that. I I think there's a lot to the who, you know, you know, you know, who who are you when the title goes away? You know, you know, let you know, just you know, just just like the question he had there is you know, who is Forrest, who is Larry, you know, and things like that. And I, you know, again, I I I'd like to think that you know, the best next version or the two point or the three point or whatever is is better than you know, everything that was done before it because you know it's it's it's put us in a position to continually, make ourselves better and business wise and family wise and things like that. And you know, you can't make make up for lost time. You know, but you know you can certainly you know you know certainly become better versions of you know of of yourself as we move forward here. So Yeah, most definitely. I think that the the the last word is the goal is not to be remained important after retirement. But the goal is to remain purposeful and I think if we keep that in mind, and are not full of ourselves as far as how important we are, I think we can have a happier, more fulfilling, holistic retirement. I'm gonna talk about this again. I think there's a part two that needs to be done. I might even try to see if I could squeeze the article out of this one 'cause I think it's it resonates based on some you know, some very good conversations that I've had with people. And so I just wanna continue to delve into this so give people tools and help to not just hit that brick wall and then figure it out, but also build some quality after the fire service and and and realize that, you know, who you are can go a long way. But sometimes you just need you not just need it just not need to be an idea, it needs to be intentional like we would with our finances. So thanks for hanging out with my brother and always a good time. You stay safe on their road. you got you gotta see for as R V. I mean, man, that it made me wanna sell my house and get me one 'cause it's just it's it it it you get tired of you get tired of one environment, you get tired of your neighbors, no problem. You just drive away. It's just it's get you know, I get get to push push the push the yellow knob in the dashboard and just just like the the engine goes forward, we can go forward and yeah, no we're blessed with the opportunity and Yeah, cat catch him catch him when he's on the road somewhere near you. He cook he cooks mean hot dogs well. There you go. yeah, I I was afraid that was gonna come and I try try you know, try and try and cook a brother dinner and look what I do to him. I you know I Black it blackened hot dogs, they were great. Yeah, no, that that was that was an old family recipe there. Yeah, no, they need it there, but it had texture to it. It was great, you know. That's right. No, Bridget you know, Bridget tells that story regularly that, you know, we got excited to have my buddy Larry over to, you know, to join us and stuff like that and you know and gonna cook cook a nice dinner and I I burned the living crap out of every single thing I put on that grill that night. That's because the conversation was so good. We were talking about succession time. Yeah, yeah. But I I hate it anyway. It was quality. It's the quality time that mattered to the and and I and to this day we we we we still use the the corn roaster that that that that you got us as a lovely parting gift there. So that that that still comes into play. I'm I'm on a regular basis there, so Yeah. Good deal, good deal. Well brothers, stay safe on this road and and we're gonna see you on the road, teaching of course, as we do when we cross paths and all, but appreciate you being a friend and not just a mentor in the fire service, just being a friend that's been in a lot of ways more valuable, especially as we get older and and and continue to search for our purpose now, you know. on the gray hair side of things, By the time this airs I'll be I'll be sixty two. I mean November first, I'll be sixty two. So thank you. I know black don't crack so I I appreciate it, you know, but but but I'll be sixty two so I'll continue to find my purpose as I get older because I thought, you know, Larry Connolly at at sixty, my goodness. When where'd the time go? It went just like that. So everybody stay safe. Winter is coming coming and with winter is coming and may increase fires. So continue to learn everything you need to know because anything that could kill you, you need to know everything you need to know about it. So but we'll we'll see you on the next episode on our December show. We got a great guest for our December show. We're working on that show now. But this is but thank you for tuning in to our November show here. And we'll see you on the next episode of the Larry Conley Radio Show. Thank you and good night.