Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Evil Genius: The FBI agent who snares serial killer UNABOMBER reveals how he did it

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Evil Genius: The FBI agent who snares serial killer UNABOMBER reveals how he did it · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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Speaker 1: XIM Triumph Channel one thirty two talk about an evil genius,
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Speaker 1: someone so incredibly mentally gifted with an i Q around
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Speaker 1: a hundred and seventy, but uses that brain power for
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Speaker 1: evil terrorizing the country. I'm Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
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Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us. A math prodigy, an
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Speaker 1: academic career. How did he come to the decision to
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Speaker 1: abandon a career at university to follow a primitive lifestyle
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Speaker 1: living in the middle of nowhere and basically a log
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Speaker 1: cabin without indoor plumbing. How does this happen? And how
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Speaker 1: does an evil genius living in the middle of nowhere
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Speaker 1: in a remote cabin without electricity or even running water,
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Speaker 1: and in the woodlands of Montana. How does this guy
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Speaker 1: manage to terrorize the country with a nation wide bombing
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Speaker 1: campaign targeting people involved with modern tech chnology? How does
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Speaker 1: your mind get so twisted when you could have been
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Speaker 1: anything working at NASA, teaching at Chicago, or m I T.
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Speaker 1: How do you end up in a cabin in the
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Speaker 1: middle of the Montana woodlands masterminding and executing a bombing
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Speaker 1: a lethal bombing campaign across the nation? The evil genius
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Speaker 1: Theodore John Kazynski, commonly known as the UNI Bomber with
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Speaker 1: me Jim Fitzgerald, former FBI agent. This guy Jim Fitzgerald
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Speaker 1: is actually the star of a movie called man Hunt Unibomber.
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Speaker 1: His character was played by Sam Worthington. It was on
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Speaker 1: I D and now on Netflix, man Hunt Uni Bomber.
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Speaker 1: He was also the author of a series of books
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Speaker 1: called Journey to the Center of the Mind. You can
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Speaker 1: find it at his website James or Fitzgerald dot com
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Speaker 1: or Amazon with me The Terrorist Therapist, Dr Carol Lieberman
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Speaker 1: l a forensic psychiatrist, author of Alliance and Tigers and
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Speaker 1: Terrorists Oh My. You can find her at The Terrorist
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Speaker 1: Therapist dot com and Reporting Today, Crime Stories investigative reporter
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Speaker 1: Alan the Duke Duke, all right, I don't even know
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Speaker 1: where to start, so let's just start with you, Alan Duke. Nobody.
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Speaker 1: I remember this vaguely when sketches of the UNI bomber
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Speaker 1: would come out, and to me, every guy running the
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Speaker 1: jogging track looked like him because it was a hoodie
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Speaker 1: with the hoodie pulled up over the head and a
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Speaker 1: pair of like aviator sunglasses. That could have been anybody.
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Speaker 1: Do you remember when they came out? Oh? Yes, I
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Speaker 1: was at CNN just as you were, and we were
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Speaker 1: trying to figure out who this guy was, where he
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Speaker 1: was because every few months, over a series reeas of years,
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Speaker 1: there would be another bomb attack, and they became more
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Speaker 1: serious and more serious, stretching out from night to nine,
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Speaker 1: killing three people injuring twenty three others. What was it,
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Speaker 1: jim seventeen bombings? I think over those that period it
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Speaker 1: was sixteen total. And if he brought down the airplane
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Speaker 1: he wanted to he put a bomb on, it would
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Speaker 1: have been you know, two d and fifty more people.
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Speaker 1: So luckily that bomb only worked sort of halfway and
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Speaker 1: the plane was a resulted an emergency landing. Wow, you
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Speaker 1: know what, I did not even it should be at
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Speaker 1: the plane bombing to him, Jim Vizgerald, former fed with
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Speaker 1: the FBI, you just taught me something new. And Alan
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Speaker 1: de what you were saying about um us being at
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Speaker 1: CNN at the time. I remember jogging back in Atlanta
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Speaker 1: at that time and I would literally see a guy
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Speaker 1: running by with a hoodie and sunglass. I'm like, and
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Speaker 1: I would stop and turn around a look at him,
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Speaker 1: and then another guy come along basically looking the same way.
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Speaker 1: I'm like, this is crazy. No one could identify the
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Speaker 1: UNI bomber. And he was so smart Dr Carol Lieberman
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Speaker 1: that he would implant faults clues inside the inner workings
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Speaker 1: of the bombs, faults clues. That's how brilliant this guy is. Yes,
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Speaker 1: he was very intellectually brilliant, but psychologically he had problems
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Speaker 1: from his UH from the time he was a baby
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Speaker 1: on that that began with his having us having hives
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Speaker 1: and being isolated in the hospital. It was so interesting
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Speaker 1: as a psychiatrist to see all of the different things
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Speaker 1: that happened to him along the way in his early
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Speaker 1: years that turned him into the UNI bomber. Things where
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Speaker 1: he was hurt, made angry, felt resentful, and revengeful against society.
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Speaker 1: It's really an interesting study about how my a brilliant
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Speaker 1: mind can get so twisted. Take a listen to an
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Speaker 1: as Salt Lake City computer store owner Gary Wright tells
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Speaker 1: ABC about how he was wounded. As I drove into
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Speaker 1: the rear parking lot, I noticed that there was a
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Speaker 1: piece of wood. I went over to pick it up.
6:17
Speaker 1: I bent down and I put my hand on the
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Speaker 1: very end of it, and immediately something happened. There was
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Speaker 1: a big blast of pressure and I was knocked about
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Speaker 1: twenty ft backwards into the parking lot. What happened here?
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Speaker 1: When it went off, there was about two d pieces
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Speaker 1: of shrapnel that went through my body at various points.
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Speaker 1: Found out that my secretary had been looking out this
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Speaker 1: window right here, and she saw somebody kneeling down hold
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Speaker 1: something out of a bag and and set it on
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Speaker 1: the ground, and they were looking face to face about
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Speaker 1: four ft apart from one another. To Jim Fitzgerald, former
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Speaker 1: FBI agent, criminal profiler, forensic linguist, former FBI agent known
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Speaker 1: for his role in the UNI bomb investigation, You know,
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Speaker 1: UNI bomb stands for University Airline bombs right, and it
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Speaker 1: was turned it was used. Um he became it was
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Speaker 1: called first within the FBI, the UNI bomb investigation. I've
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Speaker 1: been understanding. Then he turned into the UNI bomber from
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Speaker 1: that pseudonym, and there were a hundred and fifty full
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Speaker 1: time investigators on the case trying to catch this bomber.
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Speaker 1: Jim Fitzgerald, what a pleasure to have you your books
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Speaker 1: and journey to the center of the mind. Let me
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Speaker 1: ask you what went wrong in the mind of Ted Kausinska.
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Speaker 1: I mean, how does a a child math prodigy end
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Speaker 1: up out in the Montana woodland in a log cabin
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Speaker 1: with no running water or electricity. Well, that's an excellent question, Nancy,
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Speaker 1: that I think a number of psychologists and psychiatrists, both
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Speaker 1: professional and armchair, try to figure out even to this day.
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Speaker 1: And I mean I heard what doctor Carol say about
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Speaker 1: his hospital stay when he was very young. He was
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Speaker 1: back in those days it would be like the late
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Speaker 1: nineteen forties, they would actually isolate young children from their
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Speaker 1: parents for a certain amount of time. And uh, and
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Speaker 1: supposedly when he came back, I think he was only
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Speaker 1: two to three years old, his mother said in later
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Speaker 1: interviews with at the high agents that from that point
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Speaker 1: on she noticed a different little teddy. There was something
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Speaker 1: that was changed about him as a result of that
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Speaker 1: isolation for about five to seven days I believe it
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Speaker 1: was when again he was about three years old. What
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Speaker 1: what hold on? Hold on are you guys, Jim Fisgeryl
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Speaker 1: and Carol Aberman. Doctor Carol Aberman trying to tell me
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Speaker 1: that five to seven days in isolation as a child
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Speaker 1: because he had hives turned him into the unibar because
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Speaker 1: I'm just not buying that. Well, help me out, Jim. Yeah,
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Speaker 1: I was listening to say here that that happened to
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Speaker 1: thousands and probably hundreds of thousands, if not more, of
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Speaker 1: kids in that age in that age bracket during that
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Speaker 1: time frame. But guess what they didn't turned out to
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Speaker 1: be serial killers or serial bombers. There was definitely something
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Speaker 1: in his d NA that took him to that level
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Speaker 1: years later in life. Well, you know, first of all,
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Speaker 1: it was it was there were things that happened during
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Speaker 1: that hospitalization. It wasn't the only bad thing that happened
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Speaker 1: to him, um, but you know, he was also held
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Speaker 1: down by doctors examining his hives. There's a lot of
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Speaker 1: there's a pattern that repeats. Wait a minute, I the
9:40
Speaker 1: doctors made me hold the twins so they could get
9:42
Speaker 1: their vaccinations. They're fine. Well, the thing is, um, you know,
9:48
Speaker 1: first of all, his his mother said that he always
9:51
Speaker 1: had sympathy towards animals and cages. But there's a pattern
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Speaker 1: in his life of isolated. We all have sympathy towards
9:59
Speaker 1: animals and ages. My dog, fat Boy isn't a great
10:03
Speaker 1: right now, so he won't attack somebody with these a docs.
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Speaker 1: And but the animal in a cage, yes, Like, none
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Speaker 1: of this is convincing me that it's anybody's fault. Okay,
10:16
Speaker 1: but wait, that was just the first thing in a
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Speaker 1: pattern of similar kinds of situations where he was isolated.
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Speaker 1: First of all, through school, he was always kept on
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Speaker 1: the outside by by friends that he didn't really have friends. Um,
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Speaker 1: he was kind of bullied, he was and and he's
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Speaker 1: always felt sort of held down in a way by society.
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Speaker 1: So that's a pattern that keeps repeating, Alan Duke, Alan Duke,
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Speaker 1: can you and Jackie please help me? I mean, I've
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Speaker 1: got two brilliant guests here, Dr Carol Aberman and Jim Fitzgerald,
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Speaker 1: brilliant both of them. Can we just put a little
10:52
Speaker 1: common sense world knowledge into this. Everybody feels like they're
10:56
Speaker 1: bullied in high school, even the bullies. Everybody feels like
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Speaker 1: they fit in on the outside looking in. I was
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Speaker 1: just convinced everybody thinks that held down in the hospital
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Speaker 1: to look at his hives. Yeah, okay, that's still not
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Speaker 1: bothering me. Let's listen to what his brother, David Kazinski
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Speaker 1: is younger brother, said about how he was when he
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Speaker 1: was a young man, a teenager just going to college.
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Speaker 1: At age sixteen, he would write angry letters to his parents.
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Speaker 1: Let's showed signs of mental illness. Even at that point.
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Speaker 1: He began to um right, very hostile, angry, resentful letters
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Speaker 1: to our parents. I had a hard time understanding where
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Speaker 1: the resentment came from. How long do you think he
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Speaker 1: was challenged with mental illness. It's pretty clear that by
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Speaker 1: the time he was a graduate student at the University
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Speaker 1: of Michigan, he was sufferings from some pretty serious delusions.
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Speaker 1: My major argument against the death penalty for my brother
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Speaker 1: is the fact that he's diagnosed with a serious mental
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Speaker 1: illness parent it schizophrenia. Well, so at sixteen he was
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Speaker 1: writing these angry letters to his parents. You know, I
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Speaker 1: thought Tan's always blame everything on their parents. That's my understanding.
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Speaker 1: I've yet to live through it, and I dread it.
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Speaker 1: I really dread it. But to me, that's still not
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Speaker 1: telling me that his mental illness caused him to turn
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Speaker 1: His allegedmental illness turned him into the UNI bomber. I
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Speaker 1: want to get back to him being the UNI bomber,
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Speaker 1: and I am fascinated. Jim Fitzgerald, author of A Journey
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Speaker 1: to the Center of the Mind. Jim, I mean, you've
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Speaker 1: even had your your star in a movie about this
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Speaker 1: called man Hunt Unibomber. Sam Worthington plays you. I can't
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Speaker 1: even imagine what that must feel like. So congratulations. You
12:49
Speaker 1: can see it on Netflix. But I am totally intrigued.
12:55
Speaker 1: But I mean, I always think I've seen it all.
12:57
Speaker 1: Nothing new under the sun now as far as crimes.
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Speaker 1: But this guy is so brilliant. He actually would implant
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Speaker 1: false clues in his bombs. Explain, Yeah, it's one thing
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Speaker 1: to do forensic countermeasures, but this guy sort of did. Uh.
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Speaker 1: He not only avoided putting clues on his devices or
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Speaker 1: on his letters, he added false clues onto Uh specifically letters,
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Speaker 1: as far as we know. First of all, he inscribed
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Speaker 1: the initials FC onto Uh all of his bombing devices
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Speaker 1: are at least about fourteen of the sixteen of them,
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Speaker 1: and as in Frank C, as in chicken FC. Yes,
13:41
Speaker 1: except he later explained in New York Times the FC
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Speaker 1: stood for Freedom Club, which was in fact sort of
13:49
Speaker 1: antie that was easy to figure out. Yeah, And of
13:52
Speaker 1: course some people thought they were his initials early on,
13:55
Speaker 1: or he reversed them, you know, he's really C. Charlie F.
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Speaker 1: Frank was his name, you know, something like that. But
14:01
Speaker 1: so that's one thing. But what he also would do
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Speaker 1: on his letters, uh, he would send letters in one
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Speaker 1: specifically to a Yale professor, Dr. Ga Lertner, the professor
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Speaker 1: of computer science there, who first received a bomb from
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Speaker 1: him and lost half of his hand, and then a
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Speaker 1: few months later receives a letter from him sort of
14:18
Speaker 1: rubbing salt into the wounds, you know, figuratively speaking, And
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Speaker 1: he puts on the return address of the envelope ninth
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Speaker 1: and Pennsylvania Avenues, Washington, d C. I'm sure most of
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Speaker 1: your listeners know that's the address of the FBI building
14:33
Speaker 1: as it was FBI headquarters, as was well known at
14:36
Speaker 1: that time, the FBI was in charge. If you hear that,
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Speaker 1: he's brilliant. So he and I'm not saying that in
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Speaker 1: a good way. I'm saying it like you know, the
14:45
Speaker 1: devil is brilliant in his own way as well. When
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Speaker 1: it's just amazing to me that he blows guy's hand off,
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Speaker 1: then writes him a letter, you know, rubbing salt in
14:56
Speaker 1: the wounds, and gives the a turn addresses the FBI. Now,
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Speaker 1: i'm he will disagree with the two of you, Jim
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Speaker 1: and Carol because from first and fourth he went to
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Speaker 1: Sherman Elementary in Chicago. He's described as healthy, well adjusted.
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Speaker 1: All right, no problem there. Then he they moved to
15:15
Speaker 1: Evergreen Park Central School. He skipped the sixth grade. That's
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Speaker 1: a problem for him because he's in with people he
15:21
Speaker 1: doesn't know and he feels bullied. Okay, that happens to everybody.
15:25
Speaker 1: He goes to Evergreen Park Community High School, where he
15:28
Speaker 1: excelled academically. He played the trombone in the marching band.
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Speaker 1: He was in the math club, the biology club, the
15:35
Speaker 1: coin club, the German club. All right, Still, I mean
15:38
Speaker 1: he's holding it together. He was regarded as a walking brain,
15:42
Speaker 1: so to speak. According to his peers, he was considered
15:45
Speaker 1: the smartest kid in the clients. Just quiet and shy,
15:49
Speaker 1: but once you knew him, he would talk and talk
15:51
Speaker 1: and talk. Throughout high school, he was in front of
15:54
Speaker 1: everybody in advanced classes. He went to Harvard University. I okay,
16:01
Speaker 1: hold on, he goes to Harvard. He makes it at Harvard.
16:07
Speaker 1: Now to me, you you would have to be How
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Speaker 1: can someone who was not mentally a depth make it
16:17
Speaker 1: through Harvard? Okay? His sweet mates even really did not
16:23
Speaker 1: see anything out of the ordinary with him. He excelled
16:29
Speaker 1: at Harvard. No one noticed anything was wrong. He would
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Speaker 1: debate personal philosophy with fellow students, right essays as to
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Speaker 1: his beliefs. So one thing happened there though, he began
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Speaker 1: his anti technology fixation, and it's claimed that vexation had
16:52
Speaker 1: roots in the Harvard curriculum. He got his degree in
16:56
Speaker 1: math at Harvard, and um, I know that much. Then
17:01
Speaker 1: he went to University of Michigan got his master's in
17:04
Speaker 1: doctrine in mathematics. I mean, how can you get through
17:08
Speaker 1: that if you're mainly ill? Well? You actually, I mean,
17:12
Speaker 1: because he was such a genius, and he was doing
17:15
Speaker 1: so well academically that people ignored the fact that he
17:20
Speaker 1: was having all of these social problems, you know, socialization problems.
17:24
Speaker 1: His mother even thought about putting him in a study
17:27
Speaker 1: for artistic children because of that, and today he might
17:30
Speaker 1: have been UM classified as in that autism spectrum. There's
17:35
Speaker 1: there's interests. There are interesting debates about what his actual
17:38
Speaker 1: psychiatric diagnosis is. UM. Some forensic psychiatrist said schizophrenia, paranoid schizophrenia.
17:46
Speaker 1: Then um Park Deets, who's a well known forensic psychiatrist,
17:50
Speaker 1: said he had just the schizoid personality disorder. UM. You know,
17:54
Speaker 1: I'm I'm looking at the dates. The dates that he
17:57
Speaker 1: started doing things started going downhill actually coincide with UM.
18:02
Speaker 1: Actually more even with manic depressive illness, in which you
18:06
Speaker 1: can become paranoid in manic phases. I'm not sure that
18:09
Speaker 1: we okay, Well tell me this then, Jim Fitzgerald, I'm
18:12
Speaker 1: hearing all about his everybody arm cheering, uh this one
18:17
Speaker 1: and that one. What they think may be wrong with him?
18:19
Speaker 1: Could somebody explain to me how at just he became
18:22
Speaker 1: the youngest assistant professor of mathematics in the history of
18:26
Speaker 1: the University of California, Berkeley. He taught undergrad courses in
18:30
Speaker 1: geometry and calculus. Hello, and then all of a sudden
18:35
Speaker 1: the blue, he just resigns from Berkeley, moves to his
18:39
Speaker 1: parents in Lombard, Illinois, and then into a remote cabin
18:43
Speaker 1: he himself built in Montana. I mean, nobody had any clue.
18:48
Speaker 1: And he's approaching thirty now, and he's a teacher, the
18:53
Speaker 1: youngest teacher ever at University California, Berkeley. Well Um Sherlock
18:57
Speaker 1: Holmes had his professor Moriarty, and uh, I would put
19:01
Speaker 1: Professor Kazynski in that same category, except of course nonfiction.
19:06
Speaker 1: Um Kazynski self loathed. He didn't like himself, and that's
19:10
Speaker 1: always a place I think Dr Carol would agree with it.
19:12
Speaker 1: That's a place where then hatred for other people starts building.
19:16
Speaker 1: That's the foundational level where hatred for others start building.
19:19
Speaker 1: And it was during his University of Michigan years. Because
19:22
Speaker 1: we read once we got inside his cabin in April
19:24
Speaker 1: of ninety six, I was one of the first people
19:26
Speaker 1: to read his autobiography, his diary, his notes as journals,
19:30
Speaker 1: and he really talked a lot about those University of
19:33
Speaker 1: Michigan years and how he started hating everybody around him
19:36
Speaker 1: to the point that for some reason he was confused
19:40
Speaker 1: in terms of his sexual identity. And he went to
19:42
Speaker 1: the school psychologist and said, I want to become a woman.
19:45
Speaker 1: And the doctor said, all right, well, we need about
19:47
Speaker 1: five years of counseling. Maybe we'll put you on meds
19:49
Speaker 1: in two or three years. Remember this is like the
19:51
Speaker 1: mid sixties, so a lot of the before a lot
19:54
Speaker 1: of these operations or these even identity crises were known
19:57
Speaker 1: to be you know, publicized. Kazinski got so upset that
20:00
Speaker 1: it would take five years. He wanted surgery the next
20:02
Speaker 1: day to become a woman. So I read this journal
20:05
Speaker 1: of his, you know, twenty thirty years later, and he
20:08
Speaker 1: says it was leaving the doctor's office that day he
20:10
Speaker 1: said to himself, forget becoming a woman. I'll stay just
20:13
Speaker 1: like I am. But I'm gonna start killing people, just
20:15
Speaker 1: like the psychiatrist and other people in business. And that's
20:19
Speaker 1: when his true hatred for society really manifested. Now, it
20:23
Speaker 1: took him another ten years or so to start bombing,
20:26
Speaker 1: but that's the foundation of the seeds of it right
20:28
Speaker 1: there at the University of Mission let's talk about the bombs.
20:31
Speaker 1: Jim Fitzgerald, former FBI agent who knows everything about the
20:36
Speaker 1: unibomb investigation, actually has a character in a movie, the
20:40
Speaker 1: lead character in the movie Man Hunt Unibomber. Jim, I
20:46
Speaker 1: want to talk about the bombs. The bombs, the murderous bombs,
20:50
Speaker 1: and there were many of them. Um from Northwestern University,
20:57
Speaker 1: American Airlines flight that you mentioned from Chicago go to
21:00
Speaker 1: Washington Lake Forest, Illinois, University of Utah, Vanderbilt University, California, Berkeley.
21:06
Speaker 1: That should have been a clue right there. Uh, there
21:08
Speaker 1: were two together there in July in May, Boeing University, Michigan, Sacramento,
21:14
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, Yale. I mean it goes on and
21:18
Speaker 1: on and on. Tell me about the type of bombs
21:21
Speaker 1: he would build, and how would he conceal them, who
21:25
Speaker 1: would find the bombs? Well, all those locations you mentioned,
21:29
Speaker 1: there's really only three cities that played into our investigation
21:33
Speaker 1: once the bomb passed force and started. That was Chicago,
21:37
Speaker 1: Salt Lake City, and San Francisco. It's it's those three places.
21:41
Speaker 1: Either uh, he either placed the bomb at a specific
21:45
Speaker 1: location or it's from where he mailed the bombs. So
21:48
Speaker 1: and with any serial bomber, just like all the media
21:51
Speaker 1: interviews I did back in March during the Austin bombing case, Um,
21:54
Speaker 1: these guys strive to get better. They're very proud in
21:57
Speaker 1: their devices, and just like anybody who try something for
22:00
Speaker 1: the first time, build something, whatever, even makes a meal,
22:03
Speaker 1: you're going to get better as you go along and
22:05
Speaker 1: add your own little signature elements to it's something that
22:08
Speaker 1: nobody else does. So his his first bombs are relatively weak,
22:12
Speaker 1: they got better. You just spoke to me because I
22:16
Speaker 1: cook about five nights a week for the twins and
22:20
Speaker 1: my husband and my mom, if everybody's there, and the
22:23
Speaker 1: first time I make something, it's not always the best.
22:27
Speaker 1: I mean, it's edible, but then a second time it
22:29
Speaker 1: gets better. The next time it's better than it's everybody
22:34
Speaker 1: goes back for thirds. So that just made sense to me.
22:37
Speaker 1: And I'm looking. I've been researching in some small pathetic
22:41
Speaker 1: way to discuss this with you and Dr Carol Lee
22:45
Speaker 1: from today. But I know that one tactic, as I said,
22:50
Speaker 1: was leaving false clues in every bomb, deliberately making the
22:54
Speaker 1: clothes difficult to find to trick investigators into thinking they
22:58
Speaker 1: had a clue like a metal plate stand with FC
23:02
Speaker 1: as you said, hidden somewhere like the pipe end cap
23:06
Speaker 1: or a note he left in a bomb that did
23:09
Speaker 1: not detonate, which raised who it works? I told you
23:13
Speaker 1: it would r v H. One time he put a
23:18
Speaker 1: Eugene O'Neill one dollar stamps used to send his boxes.
23:24
Speaker 1: One of the bombs was sent embedded inside a copy
23:28
Speaker 1: of the novel Ice brothers Um. Interesting, right, Okay, I
23:36
Speaker 1: went off course. Go ahead, Jim. We're talking about the
23:39
Speaker 1: type of bombs and who he would pick to find
23:41
Speaker 1: the bomb. Sure, um, and the bombs themselves were all
23:45
Speaker 1: very intricately designed and put together with spare parts and
23:51
Speaker 1: pieces that he would design and construct himself. Even the
23:54
Speaker 1: screws they were he actually threaded them. They were nails
23:58
Speaker 1: that he threaded themselves himself, and then put a slot
24:01
Speaker 1: on the top the batteries. He would tear the skins
24:04
Speaker 1: off to make sure. Of course no fingerprints could be found,
24:06
Speaker 1: but even the lot number wasn't on there. He would
24:09
Speaker 1: use glue. He would put it using adhesive to put
24:12
Speaker 1: the wooden devices together, and the FBI laboratory examine the
24:17
Speaker 1: glue looking for you know, a name brand that you
24:20
Speaker 1: could buy in a hardware store. No, they realize the
24:23
Speaker 1: glue he used was made out of deer hoofs. He
24:26
Speaker 1: would kill the deer, melt the hoods down, and make glue,
24:29
Speaker 1: just like in the old days, glue was made from work.
24:31
Speaker 1: Wait wait, wait, wait, let me just let that sink
24:36
Speaker 1: in just a moment. Alan Duke, Okay, I guess you
24:40
Speaker 1: and I are the only normal people on right now
24:43
Speaker 1: because the other two were brainiacs. And sorry to suggest
24:46
Speaker 1: you're not. But Alan who has time to make glue
24:52
Speaker 1: out of deer hoofs? And this proves everything you see
24:55
Speaker 1: on TV about the FBI is true, because they are
24:59
Speaker 1: an a rising the glue made in these bombs. This
25:04
Speaker 1: guy is brilliant. He's taken off the battery covers, He's
25:07
Speaker 1: done everything to avoid detection. He even made his own
25:11
Speaker 1: glue out of deer hoofs. Alan, did you know that?
25:15
Speaker 1: Because I did not. Yeah. He he was a do
25:19
Speaker 1: it yourself for I mean, he built his own cabin.
25:21
Speaker 1: That's certainly an understatementself. I mean to me, I put
25:25
Speaker 1: up a peg in my son's closet the other day.
25:29
Speaker 1: He put his baseball caps on. That's to do it
25:31
Speaker 1: yourself or to me. All right, this is way past that,
25:34
Speaker 1: Aland he didn't have twins to watch after. He did
25:37
Speaker 1: not have a mother in law or a mother or
25:41
Speaker 1: a wife or anybody to disturb him because he was
25:44
Speaker 1: out in the middle of nowhere in Montana in that
25:47
Speaker 1: one room cabin. He didn't get cable. Yeah, he had
25:51
Speaker 1: nothing to do out there. Well, for a long time,
25:55
Speaker 1: the FBI had very little to show for their investigation.
25:59
Speaker 1: If to all of these bombs, there was a break
26:03
Speaker 1: in the case. But before I get to the break, Jim,
26:04
Speaker 1: what was a similarity in the bombs? Were they all
26:07
Speaker 1: the same? And again I keep going off on a tangent,
26:10
Speaker 1: but would he select the person that would find and
26:13
Speaker 1: detonate the bomb or was that happenstance? Now, all the
26:18
Speaker 1: devices were remarkably similar, all well constructed. Again, all these
26:22
Speaker 1: spare parts. In fact, before he was known as uh
26:25
Speaker 1: the UNI Bomber, and it was UNI bomb, he was
26:27
Speaker 1: called the Junkyard Bomber. That was his first name. But
26:31
Speaker 1: FBI headquarters didn't like that, and we love acronyms in
26:34
Speaker 1: the FBI, so they came up with the un Obamba,
26:36
Speaker 1: as you said, University Airline bombings. Um as far as
26:40
Speaker 1: his target selection, that's always whether it's a serial killer,
26:42
Speaker 1: serial rapist, whatever. Uh. You know, investigators profiles always want
26:47
Speaker 1: to know what is the target selection process? How do
26:50
Speaker 1: they pick this target but not that one? Sometimes it's
26:53
Speaker 1: relatively easy. They may be you know, blonds that are
26:56
Speaker 1: five foot ten or something. But someone like Kazynski or
26:59
Speaker 1: the Union armor, we only knew him as that we
27:01
Speaker 1: weren't sure where they were coming from. Finally, the big
27:03
Speaker 1: clue we had was that he was getting his bomber's addresses,
27:07
Speaker 1: certainly the ones he was mailing the bombs too, out
27:10
Speaker 1: of a book in that every library had, It's always
27:12
Speaker 1: the thickest book in the reference section called Who's Who
27:15
Speaker 1: in America. And that's where we knew he was going
27:18
Speaker 1: through some library somewhere in the US and researching the
27:22
Speaker 1: addresses of his of his victims, because he would occasionally
27:26
Speaker 1: get like he put street instead of avenue or you know,
27:29
Speaker 1: number instead of apartment whatever, And we knew that Who's
27:32
Speaker 1: Who in effect sort of made that mistake. So we
27:35
Speaker 1: knew after three or four bombings that were mailed that's
27:38
Speaker 1: where he was getting his information. But the victims all
27:41
Speaker 1: represented Okay, wait, wait, wait, wait, White White jam hold on.
27:45
Speaker 1: So you guys figure out because of the mistakes in
27:49
Speaker 1: the addresses, such as, instead of apartment number four, it
27:52
Speaker 1: said number four whatever. He's getting it out of a
27:55
Speaker 1: who's who directory in a library. Is that what you're
27:58
Speaker 1: telling me? Yes, now, that's where he got the specific
28:01
Speaker 1: maneling information. But he he learned about his victims, you know,
28:05
Speaker 1: in other readings he was he was reading every single
28:08
Speaker 1: day at the local library in Lincoln, Montana. We didn't
28:11
Speaker 1: know that's where he was, of course, and New York Times,
28:14
Speaker 1: Washington Post, you know, Time, Newsweek, whatever magazine was out
28:17
Speaker 1: back then, and he read about research scientists, geneticist whatever,
28:21
Speaker 1: computer stores as he progressed, and he would find something
28:24
Speaker 1: they didn't like, um um. Thomas Moser from North Jersey.
28:29
Speaker 1: That was his fifteenth bombing victim and killed. He didn't
28:32
Speaker 1: like him because he worked for a public relations firm
28:35
Speaker 1: that was defending Exon after the x In spill. So
28:39
Speaker 1: this guy had nothing to do with Ted Kazinski. They
28:41
Speaker 1: never met, but he sent him a bomb to his
28:44
Speaker 1: home just because his firm was representing Exon Exxon Valdi's
28:49
Speaker 1: oil spill. Five months later, um the lobby the forestry
28:54
Speaker 1: lobbyist in Sacramento. He received the bomb because Kazinski, and
28:58
Speaker 1: we didn't know his name yet, but there was a
29:00
Speaker 1: sawmill that opened up about a half mile from his
29:03
Speaker 1: cabin and he would hear the noise in the morning,
29:05
Speaker 1: and knowing the trees are getting cut down, that bothered him.
29:08
Speaker 1: So instead of doing anything to those lumberjacks a half
29:11
Speaker 1: mile away, he sends a bomb to a forest, three lobbyists,
29:15
Speaker 1: and Sacramento. This is how he would choose his victims,
29:18
Speaker 1: and he could never be connected to them in any way,
29:20
Speaker 1: shape or form. So Alan, do I guess you're telling
29:22
Speaker 1: me you knew all that too? No, I didn't know.
29:25
Speaker 1: I didn't. I really started getting into the UNI bomber,
29:29
Speaker 1: especially when they started sending the manifesto. Okay that yet,
29:35
Speaker 1: but actually let's talk about the manifesto. You know, Dr
29:39
Speaker 1: Carol Lieberman, you know the old phrase l a forensic psychiatrist,
29:44
Speaker 1: the terrorist therapist dot com, author of Lions and Tigers
29:48
Speaker 1: and Terrorists. Oh my, Dr Carrol, the old saying is vanity.
29:53
Speaker 1: Thy name is a woman that is total b yes,
29:56
Speaker 1: which is a technical legal term, because that I believe
30:01
Speaker 1: as what was the undoing of this evil genius, the
30:06
Speaker 1: UNI bomber. Because he couldn't just have these thoughts, he
30:10
Speaker 1: couldn't just bomb people and murder them all around the country.
30:14
Speaker 1: He had to show it off with. I think what
30:17
Speaker 1: was it a word manifesto that then he sent to
30:23
Speaker 1: various publications, including the Washington Post in the New York Times,
30:26
Speaker 1: and of course they published it. Vanity Carol, Yes, Vanity absolutely.
30:31
Speaker 1: And then there's also an earlier route for that that
30:34
Speaker 1: we haven't talked about yet. How he was in this
30:37
Speaker 1: experiment in college and Harvard where people were a psychology
30:42
Speaker 1: experiment where people were supposed to write essays and then
30:46
Speaker 1: they would be criticized by someone. And he was in
30:49
Speaker 1: this experiment weekly for three years, and he would have
30:53
Speaker 1: somebody criticize him terribly, make personal uh, on a personal
30:59
Speaker 1: kind of level, really pushing him down. And so it's
31:04
Speaker 1: so interesting that was a voluntary psychology group he was
31:09
Speaker 1: in as it related to his psychology classes, he was
31:14
Speaker 1: taken and I would argue that that's the very same
31:16
Speaker 1: thing that happens when you're in a sorority. But anyway,
31:19
Speaker 1: that's a whole another can of arms. Vanity is what
31:22
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, Dr Carroll. He had to get published,
31:25
Speaker 1: but it's interesting that here are the essays that he
31:27
Speaker 1: wrote in this ongoing three year experiment, brutal experiment. He
31:32
Speaker 1: now wanted to have the opportunity, call it vanity, to
31:36
Speaker 1: have his essays essay published without someone putting him down
31:41
Speaker 1: for it. He wanted the whole world to see it.
31:43
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Speaker 1: get started. Let's talk about the Manifesto with me, former
33:00
Speaker 1: FBI agent, author of a Journey to the Center of
33:04
Speaker 1: the Mind and played by Sam Worthington in the movie
33:08
Speaker 1: Manhunt Unibomber. It's on Netflix right now. Jim, the Manifesto
33:12
Speaker 1: was his undoing. It really was. And what a lot
33:14
Speaker 1: of people forget is there were some letters he sent
33:17
Speaker 1: to the New York Times before the Manifesto was published
33:21
Speaker 1: or even received by the New York Times, so there
33:23
Speaker 1: was a lot of information there too. He wrote fourteen
33:26
Speaker 1: letters total, the fourteen being his article. He never called
33:30
Speaker 1: it manifesto, by the way. He referred to it as
33:33
Speaker 1: his article. And the deal with the New York Times was,
33:35
Speaker 1: if you published this, I will cease and desist from
33:38
Speaker 1: bombing to kill people for the rest of my life. However,
33:42
Speaker 1: and I always got to kick out of this. I
33:44
Speaker 1: retained the right to kill, for I retained the right
33:48
Speaker 1: to bomb for purposes of sabotage. So I was never
33:51
Speaker 1: clear how you would send a bomb somewhere only to
33:54
Speaker 1: you know, destroy a building. But I've heard anybody. But
33:57
Speaker 1: that's the deal that he wanted. And the manifesto itself
34:00
Speaker 1: for thirty five thousand words, I don't know where I
34:04
Speaker 1: got nine thousand, thirty five thousand words. Guys, take a
34:08
Speaker 1: listen to this. Now, of course there's no camera and
34:11
Speaker 1: attorney in General Janet Reno's office, but listen to this
34:15
Speaker 1: from the movie man Hunt, as Reno tries to decide
34:19
Speaker 1: about the manifesto being published. Listen, So the UNI bomber
34:23
Speaker 1: is publishing deadline is approaching. Times in the poster, I
34:27
Speaker 1: might call sheet. What am I going to tell him?
34:30
Speaker 1: The FBI recommendation don The FBI recommendation is that we
34:35
Speaker 1: published the manifesto in full. We published exclusively in the
34:43
Speaker 1: Washington Post as part of a two pronged approach, first
34:46
Speaker 1: pronged forensic linguistics. If we make the manifesto widely accessible,
34:53
Speaker 1: I believe that there is an excellent chance that a
34:55
Speaker 1: friend or a colleague of the UNI bomber will recognize
34:59
Speaker 1: his unique land which in ideology, and we'll turn him in. Second,
35:04
Speaker 1: there's a high likelihood that the UNI bomber lives in
35:06
Speaker 1: the Bay Area. Now, the Washington Post is sold at
35:11
Speaker 1: only one location in San Francisco. This unique advantage will
35:16
Speaker 1: allow us to stage a large surveillance operation to follow
35:20
Speaker 1: to question, to identify every individual who buys a copy
35:24
Speaker 1: of the Post on the day of publication. While this operation,
35:28
Speaker 1: while the size and scale of this operation is unprecedented,
35:33
Speaker 1: we believe it to be a singular opportunity to lure
35:35
Speaker 1: the UNI bomber into the light. That's an unusual strategy.
35:40
Speaker 1: You're bett in Big Daddy's in Bay Area. Well, we've
35:43
Speaker 1: traced every UNI bomb letter package and bomb to the
35:49
Speaker 1: exact mailbox he dropped it in. Every single one of
35:52
Speaker 1: them is within an eight mile radius of San Francisco.
35:55
Speaker 1: If he's coming to town to mail his bombs, come
36:00
Speaker 1: a town to bias manifesto, and what's the precedent here?
36:03
Speaker 1: Where do we stand? What's all this is done? I
36:06
Speaker 1: believe that we can say with conviction the publication is
36:09
Speaker 1: less to assuade to the demands of the attacker than
36:11
Speaker 1: to use his plan against him so that it establishes
36:15
Speaker 1: a precedent of vigilance rather than weakness on the part
36:19
Speaker 1: of law enforcement. If you catch him, yes, ma'am, if
36:24
Speaker 1: we catch him, big game. Wow. And that was your character.
36:28
Speaker 1: That was you, along with Chris Nath playing Don Ackerman
36:34
Speaker 1: and Reno played by Jane Lynch, who I love. By
36:39
Speaker 1: the way, Jim, I'm curious about how it feels when
36:43
Speaker 1: you hear a dramatization of what went really went down. Well,
36:49
Speaker 1: I've used one word in any interview I've done or
36:51
Speaker 1: even personal conversations to watch a character on the screen
36:56
Speaker 1: portray you and someone who's good an actor is Sam Worthington.
36:59
Speaker 1: It's the word is surreal or surrealistic. I mean it's
37:02
Speaker 1: almost dreamlike. And yeah, that's what I said. Yeah, that's
37:05
Speaker 1: what I told the writer. I said that twenty years
37:07
Speaker 1: ago to that guy, and they captured it all in there.
37:09
Speaker 1: They did a great job. And early in that scene,
37:11
Speaker 1: you you can't wait to watch this, and you're saying
37:13
Speaker 1: it's on Netflix man Hunt Universe, I can't wait to
37:16
Speaker 1: say this. See it's actually an eight part mini series
37:20
Speaker 1: um actually inginally aired on Discovery, but now it's on Netflix.
37:24
Speaker 1: All over the world, and uh, it's getting it's gotten
37:27
Speaker 1: great reviews and people are you know, still talking about it.
37:30
Speaker 1: And uh, the last chapter in my third book is
37:32
Speaker 1: a detailed, uh you know, uh story of my role
37:37
Speaker 1: at unibom And there's some things, of course, in any
37:39
Speaker 1: mini series or movies, even based on true events, that
37:42
Speaker 1: didn't exactly happen as you know, so portrayed. So in
37:46
Speaker 1: my book, I certainly set the record straight in that regard,
37:49
Speaker 1: But on the whole, I'm still very happy with the
37:51
Speaker 1: mini series. They taught it a good overall story about
37:54
Speaker 1: the FBI's quest to get the serial bomber off the streets,
37:57
Speaker 1: and we eventually did so. That depicts the conversation the
38:01
Speaker 1: thinking of US Torny General Janet Reno into letting this
38:04
Speaker 1: manifesto third word Manifesto be published. Now take a listen.
38:12
Speaker 1: The manifesto again was the undoing of Ted Kazynski, the
38:17
Speaker 1: evil Genius. How did you, David come to suspect that
38:22
Speaker 1: your brother was the UNI bomber? You know? What actually
38:26
Speaker 1: began with my wife, Linda, And interestingly enough, she had
38:29
Speaker 1: never met Ted, but she knew that Ted had this
38:33
Speaker 1: kind of phobia about technology. She knew he was estranged
38:36
Speaker 1: from the family. But I had never seen Ted violent.
38:40
Speaker 1: I couldn't believe that he was capable of it. But
38:42
Speaker 1: she did at that point say, look, the UNI bomber
38:45
Speaker 1: has sent this manifesto to the Washington Post. Would you
38:48
Speaker 1: read it and tell me what you think? And I
38:50
Speaker 1: thought it would be a way to allay Linda Spheres.
38:53
Speaker 1: I thought I'd read that thing, I'd tell her it's
38:55
Speaker 1: not Ted and uh. Instead, as I began to read it,
38:58
Speaker 1: I realized that the voice there was so much like Ted's. Um,
39:03
Speaker 1: you know, there's some languaging. Yeah. There was a particular
39:07
Speaker 1: phrase where he had called modern philosopher's cool headed logicians,
39:13
Speaker 1: and I had recalled a similar phrase in a letter
39:15
Speaker 1: he had once sent me. And then you thought, And
39:19
Speaker 1: the day finally came when I said to Linda, and
39:22
Speaker 1: I think it's at that it could be. And did
39:25
Speaker 1: you ever think of not turning him in? Oh? Think
39:29
Speaker 1: of the dilemma I faced. You know, on one hand,
39:34
Speaker 1: here's my brother, whom I love, who I your mother
39:37
Speaker 1: had told you to always protect, to protect. Remember when
39:41
Speaker 1: I was a child, she had said, never abandoned your brother,
39:44
Speaker 1: because that's what he fears. The most. I think Mom
39:49
Speaker 1: knew that Ted had a kind of vulnerability about him.
39:51
Speaker 1: He was going to struggle in life. How did you
39:54
Speaker 1: tell your mother? So? How did you do it? You
39:56
Speaker 1: have this dread and you have this denial, and you
39:59
Speaker 1: don't want to basid, But then something inside you knows
40:02
Speaker 1: that it could be true, as you said, So then
40:05
Speaker 1: you determined to go to the FBI. If you think
40:09
Speaker 1: of the dilemma, we were in a place where any
40:11
Speaker 1: decision we made could lead to somebody's death. If we
40:15
Speaker 1: did nothing, we might wake up someday and realize, Hey,
40:18
Speaker 1: somebody died because we had failed to act. In that case,
40:21
Speaker 1: we'd have the blood of innocent people in our hands.
40:24
Speaker 1: On the other hand, there was the realization that if
40:26
Speaker 1: I turned it in, Um, you know, he'd committed three murders,
40:29
Speaker 1: he was the most wanted person in America, he could
40:32
Speaker 1: be executed. So I had to ask myself what would
40:35
Speaker 1: it be like to go through the rest of my
40:37
Speaker 1: life with my brother's blood on my hands? UM. I
40:40
Speaker 1: think ultimately we just felt, you know, we couldn't live
40:43
Speaker 1: with ourselves if we failed to stop the violence. We
40:47
Speaker 1: had to act, and so um we did end up
40:52
Speaker 1: through an attorney contacting the FBI. That was Kauzynski's brother,
40:57
Speaker 1: the un Obama's brother, David because key talking to our
41:02
Speaker 1: beloved Oprah Winfrey. But listen to what the wife has
41:07
Speaker 1: to say. What she tells ABC the longest FBI investigation
41:12
Speaker 1: in the history of our country. But how is it
41:14
Speaker 1: that you, a college professor, was the first to suspect
41:18
Speaker 1: tekask computer an obomber. The main reason, I think is
41:22
Speaker 1: that the FBI began to release information that must have
41:26
Speaker 1: been awful for you to have these suspicions that you're
41:31
Speaker 1: going to share with this man who you love. Yes,
41:33
Speaker 1: but it was really important to UM to talk with
41:41
Speaker 1: Dave about it. They had posted the first few pages
41:45
Speaker 1: of the manifesto on the screen computer in the lobby
41:50
Speaker 1: of the library, so Dave went with me. And then
41:55
Speaker 1: as Dave read the first page, I was sitting at
41:59
Speaker 1: his side and his jaw dropped. I thought I was
42:02
Speaker 1: going to read the first page of this turned to
42:04
Speaker 1: Lynda and say, see, I told you so. But on
42:06
Speaker 1: an emotional level, it just sounded like my brother's voice.
42:11
Speaker 1: I thought about the families that were abound. There was
42:17
Speaker 1: one in which the package arrived to the man's home,
42:21
Speaker 1: and his little two year old daughter was there. She
42:24
Speaker 1: was almost in the room when he opened the package.
42:27
Speaker 1: Luckily she left and his wife left, and then he died,
42:32
Speaker 1: and there were others. So I spent those days thinking
42:36
Speaker 1: about those people. Wow. But you know you hear the
42:40
Speaker 1: heartbreak and the evil genius Unibomber's brother and his sister
42:47
Speaker 1: in law's voice is a struggle. Is this my brother?
42:52
Speaker 1: If I turned him in, will he be put to death?
42:54
Speaker 1: I promised my parents I would take care of him.
42:57
Speaker 1: But you know what. Listen to t Ed Kazinski and
43:02
Speaker 1: his take on his brother. But ways, if any of
43:07
Speaker 1: you think he was jealous of you, um who He's
43:10
Speaker 1: probably jealous of the fact that I got more issue
43:13
Speaker 1: from my from our parents. Um. He was jealous of
43:17
Speaker 1: the fact the simpler that I was done in our
43:19
Speaker 1: in our relationship. UM. Jealous of the fact that I
43:25
Speaker 1: was smarter than he was. I could do I could
43:27
Speaker 1: do most things better than he could. Athletics are winning.
43:29
Speaker 1: Section That was Teed Kazinski speaking to journalist Stephen Jubner.
43:35
Speaker 1: But listen to what else he had to say. The
43:38
Speaker 1: roles have been reversed. If you would expect if you
43:41
Speaker 1: had suspected David of being the un devour right after
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Speaker 1: all the years that you haven't been communicating very regularly,
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Speaker 1: what would you have done? I have kept it to myself.
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Speaker 1: Is that what you feel he should have done? Yeah?
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Speaker 1: And what was the first What was your reaction to
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Speaker 1: that when you first year that David is involved in
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Speaker 1: turning unit? What does that feel like? Well? Obviously I
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Speaker 1: resented it. Um, there there was another another stream to
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Speaker 1: my feelings there. I don't know if I can explain
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Speaker 1: it properly, but um, you know, in a way I
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Speaker 1: was almost glad because, um, my own brother turned me
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Speaker 1: in and a sense me good. That is amazing to me.
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Speaker 1: I need a shrink? How to Carol Lieberman with me?
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Speaker 1: Forensic psychiatrist, the Terrorist Therapist dot com and author of
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Speaker 1: Lions and Tigers and Terrorists. Oh my. He is actually
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Speaker 1: blaming his brother and claiming that it's all because his
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Speaker 1: brother was jealous of him, and that he would never
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Speaker 1: have turned his own brother in, that his brother made
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Speaker 1: him the serial killer look good? Well, um, you know,
45:06
Speaker 1: actually I was thinking about that, that his brother that
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Speaker 1: you know, although his brother and his brother's wife do
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Speaker 1: seem emotionally distraught, you know at this decision to make
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Speaker 1: and so on. Um, I think there had to have
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Speaker 1: been at least some bit of jealousy, maybe because he
45:21
Speaker 1: wasn't aware of that, the brother wasn't aware of. But
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Speaker 1: you know, can you imagine growing up in a hassehold
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Speaker 1: where you're with the genius brother um and and his
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Speaker 1: parents paying more attention to him and so on, there
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Speaker 1: had to be at least unconsciously some jealous Yeah, totally.
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Speaker 1: My parents totally pay more attention to my brother than
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Speaker 1: to me and my sister. Yeah, because he made all
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Speaker 1: f's and they had to coach him and tutor him
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Speaker 1: and this and that and beg and play Jinny and
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Speaker 1: I were like, Okay, let's just go do our homework
45:51
Speaker 1: and yeah. So totally. And I'm shocked Dr Carol Laberman
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Speaker 1: that you would even say that the UNI bomber's brother
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Speaker 1: was jealous of his serial killer brother, Ted Kaczynski. I mean,
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Speaker 1: that's to me, way beyond the pale. But Jim Fitzgerald,
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Speaker 1: you're closer to the case than any of us, way in.
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Speaker 1: I never saw jealousy there from everything I've read, Um,
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Speaker 1: he Ted was very much mad at his family. Then
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Speaker 1: the last few years his father committed suicide and Ted,
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Speaker 1: you know, didn't even show up for the viewing or
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Speaker 1: even anything after that. He made a phone call two
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Speaker 1: weeks later to his mother collective course from a Lincoln
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Speaker 1: pay phone and uh. And she was so glad to
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Speaker 1: receive that, because David had already written him a letter
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Speaker 1: that his father was dead. And I think he did
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Speaker 1: have parent issues. And in the letter to Dr McConnell,
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Speaker 1: which was a rug's letter to open up a bomb,
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Speaker 1: I'm the one that first found ten years later the
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Speaker 1: hidden message Dad, it is I. And I've always suspected
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Speaker 1: as written down the left hand column of the letter,
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Speaker 1: to trick the professor to opening up the package. And
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Speaker 1: I've always felt that he had some strong animus towards
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Speaker 1: his parents. He blamed them for what for what he
47:08
Speaker 1: turned out to be, for the creature and the social retard,
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Speaker 1: if I can use that term, that he basically turned
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Speaker 1: out to be. He just couldn't function within society. Brilliant,
47:18
Speaker 1: but he just couldn't do it, and he had to
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Speaker 1: blame someone besides himself, so he blamed his parents. And
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Speaker 1: the bombing started in coincidentally when he was living at
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Speaker 1: home for two years in Chicago, Chicago suburbs with his
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Speaker 1: family once again, and don't forget to Nancy. During that
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Speaker 1: time frame, he was working at his younger brother's company,
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Speaker 1: and he had one sort of semi date with a
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Speaker 1: woman and she said no to any subsequent dates. He
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Speaker 1: put all these post it's around the company, you know,
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Speaker 1: insulting her, you know, body shaming her, as we would
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Speaker 1: say now. And David, his brother, his younger brother of
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Speaker 1: seven years, had a fire Dr. Kazynski from his foam, um,
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Speaker 1: you know company, uh and uh. And so I think
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Speaker 1: some animals built up from that point on. And um, wait,
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Speaker 1: what do you mean by post it notes? What did
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Speaker 1: the post it notes say about the woman he dated?
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Speaker 1: I I listed the limerick in my book, The Whole Limerick,
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Speaker 1: and they covered this in the mini series. But basically,
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Speaker 1: he went out and baked an apple pie one night
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Speaker 1: with this woman he worked with. It was like the
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Speaker 1: only date he ever had. And she said, hey, Ted,
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Speaker 1: you're nice, but let's you know, I can't see anything
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Speaker 1: more coming of this. The next morning, he gets into
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Speaker 1: work early again. His brother is the manager of this
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Speaker 1: company in suburban Chicago, and and Ted has all these
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Speaker 1: post it notes criticizing her her fanny, size of her butt,
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Speaker 1: so to speak, and other things about her. And actually
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Speaker 1: they were limericks and it was you know, they rhymed
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Speaker 1: and you know, almost well written. So he stayed up
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Speaker 1: all night writing limericks on post it notes to put
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Speaker 1: all looking back. Luckily, Luckily it was limericks and not
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Speaker 1: a bomb. Right well put. This guy had thirty one victims,
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Speaker 1: mini dead, multiple bombs all across the country, A brilliant,
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Speaker 1: brilliant mathematician leaving false clues to throw off the FBI.
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Speaker 1: And they were thrown off for years. And you heard
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Speaker 1: the extremes they were going to to try to catch
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Speaker 1: this guy, digging through libraries, standing it at newspaper outlets
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Speaker 1: to see watch every person that bought a certain newspaper
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Speaker 1: at a certain time during the day. I mean, extreme
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Speaker 1: measures to catch the UNI bomber. Finally, his own vanity
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Speaker 1: did him in when he published his so called Manifesto
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Speaker 1: against technology. I guess he wanted everyone to live in
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Speaker 1: the woods in a log cabin without water and electricity
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Speaker 1: like him. But listen to what Kaczynski says, now, U,
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Speaker 1: it's let me see you. Let's see if I can
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Speaker 1: explain his name. There's there's sort of um different levels
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Speaker 1: of of how you feel about your life. UM. Let
50:13
Speaker 1: me try to explain it this way. UM. When I
50:16
Speaker 1: was living in the woods, um, there was um sort
50:22
Speaker 1: of an undertone underlying feeling that that things were basically
50:27
Speaker 1: right with my life. That is, something might go wrong,
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Speaker 1: I may have a bad damn that screw something up.
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Speaker 1: I might break my ax handle and do something else,
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Speaker 1: and everything would go wrong. But still, somehow, under the
50:39
Speaker 1: underneath the the superficial unhappiness or bad things, it was
50:44
Speaker 1: an underlying thing that my life was right. It was
50:47
Speaker 1: able to fall back on the fact that, um, here
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Speaker 1: I was a freeman in the mountains, surrounded by forests
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Speaker 1: and wild animals and so forth, and this made this
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Speaker 1: made my life right even if things were for the
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Speaker 1: time being going badly here. It's the other way around. UM.
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Speaker 1: I'm not depressor, downcast, and I had things to do
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Speaker 1: that I consider protective, like working on getting this book out. Um.
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Speaker 1: And yet the knowledge that I'm locked up here here
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Speaker 1: and likely to remain so for the rest of my
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Speaker 1: life is uh, it ruins. It's it's the the undertone
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Speaker 1: in this case is is a is a is an
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Speaker 1: extremely bad one, and um, I don't want to live along.
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Speaker 1: I would rather get the dead pimal people and spend
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Speaker 1: the rest of my life in prison. Would you would
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Speaker 1: you take your own life given the opportunity, I will
51:44
Speaker 1: not kind of done it. And then at a superficial level,
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Speaker 1: it isn't really that bad, but just the knowledge that
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Speaker 1: I'm locked up and I'm not free sort of, it's
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Speaker 1: just to me, it's just not a life worth living.
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Speaker 1: Ted Kazinski claiming he'd rather be dead than in prison.
51:57
Speaker 1: And you know what, Kazinski, I bet there are a
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Speaker 1: lot of murder victims families that wish you were dead.
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