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The Senate Race Everyone Is Watching — 'Mud Season' Pilot · Politics Between Us

0:01
SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone.
0:02
SPEAKER_01: We are so excited you're here and listening.
0:04
SPEAKER_01: This is Allison.
0:05
SPEAKER_00: And this is Luca.
0:05
And I'm calling in from my apartment that I share with my
0:08
boyfriend in Brooklyn.
0:10
SPEAKER_01: And I'm coming to you from my house here in Portland, Maine.
0:13
SPEAKER_00: So we want to welcome you to Politics Between Us.
0:15
SPEAKER_00: This is a project that's one running conversation about politics,
0:19
SPEAKER_00: purpose,
0:19
SPEAKER_00: and how to live a good life.
0:21
SPEAKER_01: And listen, before we dive in, a quick disclaimer.
0:23
SPEAKER_01: I am a faculty member at Colby College,
0:25
SPEAKER_01: and Luca works there too,
0:26
SPEAKER_01: but the views expressed here entirely are on.
0:29
This show is a personal project and not produced or endorsed by
0:32
the college.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Okay, now let's get into it.
0:37
SPEAKER_00: If you already know us,
0:38
you know Allison and I have been talking politics together for
0:40
nearly a decade now.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: But if you're new here, let's start from the beginning.
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Allison?
0:44
SPEAKER_00: Allison?
0:45
I met Luca when I was the executive director of the ACLU of
0:48
Maine,
0:49
and he started as an intern.
0:50
SPEAKER_01: I think he was 18.
0:52
I was in my mid-40s,
0:53
and honestly,
0:53
I definitely didn't want an intern at first.
0:56
SPEAKER_01: But Luca was special, and he was creative and smart and thoughtful.
1:01
And even better,
1:02
once he got comfortable,
1:03
he wasn't afraid to challenge me.
1:05
Yeah,
1:05
and when I first met Allison,
1:07
she was literally running through the office.
1:09
SPEAKER_00: I thought she was totally scary or at least intimidating,
1:13
SPEAKER_00: but mostly I thought she was brilliant and entertaining and so inspiring,
1:17
SPEAKER_00: and I desperately wanted to work for her.
1:20
It only took four summers interning at the ACLU for Allison to
1:23
hire me as her
1:24
SPEAKER_00: executive assistant.
1:26
Think Devil Wears Prada,
1:27
except for it's about politics and Allison's nicer to me.
1:31
SPEAKER_00: And we've been working together in some capacity ever since.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and talking politics through it all.
1:37
SPEAKER_01: Job transitions,
1:38
SPEAKER_01: we went through COVID together,
1:39
SPEAKER_01: some heartbreak,
1:40
SPEAKER_01: and then you leaving for New York City.
1:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah,
1:43
SPEAKER_00: for the past 10 years,
1:44
SPEAKER_00: most of my days have started with me calling you up and asking,
1:47
SPEAKER_00: good morning,
1:48
SPEAKER_00: Alison,
1:49
SPEAKER_00: what's on your mind?
1:50
SPEAKER_00: And then who knows what's going to come out of your mouth?
1:53
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes you say something truly wild,
1:56
SPEAKER_00: but most of the time we have really thoughtful conversations.
1:59
SPEAKER_00: In fact, these phone calls were the genesis of this whole idea.
2:03
We have conversations about politics and our personal lives
2:07
that feel important.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: You know,
2:09
I think it's somewhere along the way we realize that these are
2:13
actually the kinds
2:14
SPEAKER_01: of conversations that we wish everyone could have about politics.
2:17
SPEAKER_00: Right.
2:18
I think a lot of people have given up on political
2:20
conversations entirely,
2:22
SPEAKER_00: but we don't think it has to be that way.
2:24
We think politics can actually be about connection and staying
2:27
engaged across differences.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: And one of those differences is definitely generational.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: Luca's half my age and we have almost 30 years between us.
2:35
So part of what we're doing here is speaking to each other
2:37
across generations,
2:38
SPEAKER_00: learning from each other.
2:40
We started this project on Substack where we write letters back
2:43
and forth.
2:44
SPEAKER_01: Now we're taking that conversation into a podcast,
2:47
SPEAKER_01: talking to journalists,
2:48
SPEAKER_01: politicians,
2:49
SPEAKER_01: people you are definitely going to want to hear from.
2:51
And we're going to start this podcast with a series of
2:54
interviews around a very
2:56
SPEAKER_01: specific political moment.
2:58
SPEAKER_00: Yes, indeed.
2:59
We are going to be talking about something on a lot of Mainers'
3:02
minds right now,
3:03
SPEAKER_00: which is the 2026 Democratic primary race between Janet Mills,
3:08
SPEAKER_00: a current sitting governor,
3:10
SPEAKER_00: and Graham Plattner,
3:11
SPEAKER_00: oyster farmer and political newcomer.
3:13
SPEAKER_01: And we're calling this limited run mud season.
3:16
SPEAKER_00: So that's what you're about to hear.
3:18
SPEAKER_00: Our first interview with the political strategist David Farmer.
3:21
SPEAKER_00: David has been working in Maine politics for two decades now.
3:25
And you're going to hear our conversation with him about
3:28
political narrative,
3:29
SPEAKER_00: how transgender rights are part of the political landscape in Maine,
3:33
SPEAKER_00: and an unexpected case for Janet Mills.
3:36
And stick around after the interview for a hopefully fun little
3:39
segment we're calling Age Bait.
3:42
SPEAKER_00: So think of this episode as a taste of what's to come.
3:45
Yeah,
3:46
this is really like this is a flavor of what we're going for
3:48
with the podcast.
3:49
SPEAKER_00: That's what I literally said.
3:52
But we're planning on recording mud season this spring and we'd
3:55
love your feedback.
3:56
SPEAKER_00: Tell us what you think.
3:57
SPEAKER_00: Tell us what you want more of and tell us what you want less of.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Thanks so much for being here and we really hope you enjoy it.
4:15
SPEAKER_01: All right, let's see how this goes.
4:16
SPEAKER_01: Welcome, David Farmer.
4:18
Welcome to the first ever edition of Politics Between Us,
4:22
our first podcast.
4:23
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for being here.
4:23
SPEAKER_03: It's great to join you.
4:25
SPEAKER_03: Thank you for having me.
4:26
SPEAKER_01: And let me introduce you to my dear friend and colleague, Luca DeAngelis.
4:30
SPEAKER_00: Hi, David.
4:31
SPEAKER_00: It's so wonderful to finally meet you.
4:33
SPEAKER_00: I've heard a lot about you over the last decade of working with Alison.
4:36
SPEAKER_03: I appreciate that.
4:37
I hope some of it was true and some of it was kind,
4:40
but you never can tell.
4:43
SPEAKER_03: Totally.
4:45
SPEAKER_01: So David,
4:46
SPEAKER_01: you and I have known each other,
4:47
SPEAKER_01: I think for like,
4:48
SPEAKER_01: at least over a decade now worked in a variety of settings together.
4:52
And you are really my go to I,
4:55
which is why we want to start talking to you today.
4:57
SPEAKER_01: My go to on politics,
4:58
SPEAKER_01: you've worked in politics for,
5:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't know,
5:00
SPEAKER_01: three decades,
5:01
SPEAKER_01: maybe almost three decades in lots of settings.
5:04
SPEAKER_01: And we totally want to get into all of that.
5:06
SPEAKER_01: But first, we would love to just
5:09
SPEAKER_01: hear a little bit more about your story, really.
5:11
SPEAKER_01: And we're really curious, like, what is your first memory of politics?
5:16
SPEAKER_03: Oh, my goodness.
5:18
SPEAKER_03: First memory of politics.
5:20
SPEAKER_03: Well,
5:21
SPEAKER_03: I grew up in a conservative family in southwestern Virginia,
5:25
SPEAKER_03: which is coal mine area of Virginia.
5:28
And I can remember my mom waking me up after the election when
5:35
Jimmy Carter was elected.
5:38
And her response was,
5:41
I'm sorry,
5:42
the flip-flopper,
5:43
the wishy-washy guy won.
5:45
SPEAKER_03: That's my first political memory from the 70s, I guess.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: Wow.
5:50
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I remember that, too.
5:51
SPEAKER_01: Luca, you're not going to be able to go back that far.
5:54
But certainly remember the peanut farmer and the general
5:56
impression on the television.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: I actually never knew that about you.
6:00
SPEAKER_01: I didn't know that you grew up in a conservative family.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah.
6:03
SPEAKER_03: My parents were rock-dribbed Republicans.
6:08
SPEAKER_03: You know, from a very conservative Bible belty part of Virginia.
6:13
Do you remember like what it felt like growing up in that in
6:16
that household where
6:17
SPEAKER_00: you totally bought in?
6:17
SPEAKER_03: Oh, gosh.
6:19
SPEAKER_03: With my parents?
6:20
SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
6:21
SPEAKER_03: No,
6:21
SPEAKER_03: I don't think things have changed that much in,
6:24
SPEAKER_03: you know,
6:24
50 years to where as a kid you you're bought in just because
6:28
your parents are.
6:30
SPEAKER_03: But, you know, we were regular church attenders.
6:32
And by regular,
6:33
I mean,
6:34
you know,
6:34
three times a week,
6:35
Sunday morning,
6:36
Sunday night.
6:37
wednesday prayer service you know i grew up in that culture and
6:41
surrounded by that
6:42
that type of influences but you know it was just normal it you
6:46
know there was
6:47
nothing there was nothing really to compare it to at that point
6:50
uh you know our
6:51
area was pretty homogeneous do you remember there being like a
6:55
specific idea or
6:57
SPEAKER_00: issue that started to crack things open for you in this time period
7:00
SPEAKER_03: No, not so.
7:01
SPEAKER_03: You know,
7:01
SPEAKER_03: we didn't have ice raids or anything like that that was very,
7:06
SPEAKER_03: very much a wake-up moment.
7:08
SPEAKER_03: In fact,
7:09
SPEAKER_03: you know,
7:10
I worked at a grocery store when the coal mine unions in
7:15
southwestern Virginia,
7:17
SPEAKER_03: eastern Kentucky,
7:19
SPEAKER_03: southern West Virginia,
7:21
SPEAKER_03: northeast Tennessee,
7:21
SPEAKER_03: when the unions were broken.
7:24
SPEAKER_03: And I remember that.
7:26
SPEAKER_03: But I don't,
7:27
I didn't have any political context for what that means or what
7:31
it meant at the
7:31
SPEAKER_03: time.
7:33
And I can remember my parents talking about union organizing
7:36
that was happening at
7:37
SPEAKER_03: the plant where my mom worked.
7:40
And they were very anti-union in the sense that they believed
7:44
that it would lead to
7:45
SPEAKER_03: the closure of the plant and the loss of the work.
7:48
SPEAKER_03: And,
7:48
SPEAKER_03: you know,
7:48
SPEAKER_03: I remember those things,
7:49
SPEAKER_03: but they weren't,
7:51
SPEAKER_03: I don't remember them in a sense as an awakening.
7:54
SPEAKER_03: I think that I would put that to a professor I had,
7:58
SPEAKER_03: or a number of professors I had in college,
8:01
that forced us to think about religion and justice and fairness
8:07
and the social
8:07
SPEAKER_03: contract in a very different way.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: It's so interesting,
8:11
SPEAKER_01: David,
8:11
because what you're talking about is how we sort of evolve in
8:16
our thinking over
8:17
SPEAKER_01: time.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Because I think a lot of us in politics right now think,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: oh,
8:19
SPEAKER_01: if we just have the right message,
8:21
SPEAKER_01: we'll just change someone's mind,
8:23
SPEAKER_01: right?
8:23
SPEAKER_01: We'll just be able to shift the perspective.
8:26
SPEAKER_01: And I think what you're speaking to is that actually,
8:28
SPEAKER_01: it doesn't tend to be like a big eureka moment.
8:32
SPEAKER_01: It's a way of evolving into understanding where we are headed.
8:36
SPEAKER_03: Well, you know, I will just say one thing.
8:38
You mentioned this notion that we think that we just need the
8:40
right message.
8:42
And despite being a political communicator and someone who
8:46
works on messages all
8:47
SPEAKER_03: the time,
8:47
SPEAKER_03: I think that's where Democrats often go wrong,
8:52
SPEAKER_03: is that we think that we're just not telling our story.
8:56
SPEAKER_03: And if we do, people will agree with us.
9:00
SPEAKER_03: And I think that's a little belly button gazing.
9:03
SPEAKER_03: And,
9:03
SPEAKER_03: you know,
9:03
I think that what we really need to do is deliver results for
9:07
the things that
9:08
people care about and the things that are impacting their lives
9:11
on a daily basis.
9:12
And then if you do the right thing and you do good things,
9:15
the messaging follows that.
9:17
SPEAKER_03: You've heard me say this before, Allison.
9:18
SPEAKER_03: There's no magic spell or incantation that we can...
9:22
that we can say out loud with the right hand motions that will
9:25
convince someone of
9:27
SPEAKER_03: a policy or an idea that runs counter to their own experiences.
9:44
SPEAKER_01: All right, well, let's turn to Maine's U.S.
9:47
Senate race,
9:48
because that's feeling like one of the more interesting
9:52
storylines in U.S.
9:53
SPEAKER_01: politics right now, right?
9:54
SPEAKER_01: We have the sitting Maine governor,
9:58
SPEAKER_01: Janet Mills,
9:59
SPEAKER_01: and then we have a newcomer,
10:01
SPEAKER_01: not relative,
10:01
SPEAKER_01: a straight-up newcomer,
10:03
SPEAKER_01: Graham Plattner,
10:04
SPEAKER_01: who is taking on this enormous task of running for U.S.
10:07
SPEAKER_01: Senate.
10:08
SPEAKER_01: So what do you think the story of the U.S.
10:10
SPEAKER_01: Senate race is in Maine right now?
10:13
SPEAKER_01: What's the story everyone's telling?
10:15
SPEAKER_03: Well,
10:16
I think the national media particularly would like to make this
10:20
a contest between
10:22
SPEAKER_03: an old establishment Democrat.
10:26
and a new firebrand progressive who has come out of nowhere to
10:33
rattle the status
10:34
SPEAKER_03: quo and run on a platform of change.
10:39
I think that,
10:39
you know,
10:39
that is the campaign that is being portrayed from afar.
10:44
And you see those themes because it fits a narrative of the
10:48
conflicts that we see
10:49
SPEAKER_03: in democratic politics around the country.
10:53
SPEAKER_03: But I think what that fails to recognize,
10:55
SPEAKER_03: and you mentioned the governor's accomplishments,
10:58
SPEAKER_03: a first woman DA,
11:01
SPEAKER_03: first woman attorney general,
11:04
SPEAKER_03: a woman governor.
11:06
the groundbreaking roles that she has played in the state,
11:10
her leadership through crisis.
11:13
SPEAKER_03: And then on the other side,
11:14
SPEAKER_03: you have Graham Plattner,
11:16
SPEAKER_03: who was recruited to run by the political media class,
11:21
who was identified and prepped and trained to create an image
11:26
that may not match
11:29
SPEAKER_03: exactly the oyster farmer story that the campaign is trying to tell.
11:34
And those nuances and that reality of the individuals matter in
11:40
a state like Maine.
11:41
SPEAKER_03: 1.3 million people, a million voters.
11:43
If you don't meet a candidate who's running,
11:46
it's because you've decided not to.
11:48
SPEAKER_03: The politicians in the state are very accessible and very reachable.
11:54
SPEAKER_03: And I don't think that you can take a woman like Janet Mills,
11:59
SPEAKER_03: who's demonstrated her toughness and commitment to the state,
12:03
over decades of public service who stood up to Trump in the hot
12:08
spotlight of being
12:09
caught at a meeting with him and boil that down into she's old
12:14
and establishment
12:16
SPEAKER_03: and this guy's young and charismatic.
12:20
I don't think that that simplification does the race or the
12:24
contest justice.
12:26
SPEAKER_01: Okay, but I got to push back a little bit, though.
12:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:28
SPEAKER_01: All right, push back.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: I feel like I hear this every time.
12:31
SPEAKER_01: And, you know, I've worked with the governor.
12:34
I've disagreed with the governor many times,
12:36
and I have enormous respect for her.
12:38
SPEAKER_01: And I think that every time people want to trash Plattner,
12:42
SPEAKER_01: it's like he was trained and recruited.
12:44
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, first of all, everyone's recruited at some point.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: And I'm sorry, I've worked with enough politicians.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: He hasn't had enough time to be trained to be as good as he is.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: He is a natural at this and he has deep thoughts and policy thoughts.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: So,
12:58
SPEAKER_01: you know,
12:58
SPEAKER_01: to me,
13:00
SPEAKER_01: I take your point very,
13:02
SPEAKER_01: and I take it well that the governor has enormous credibility and actual
13:07
SPEAKER_01: experience.
13:08
And I would also suggest that her policies are out of line with
13:11
a lot of people who
13:12
SPEAKER_01: vote in Maine.
13:13
SPEAKER_01: Now, maybe only in the primary.
13:14
SPEAKER_01: So I've just made like 17 points in one statement,
13:16
SPEAKER_01: which is like literally the way you would have trained me not to do.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: So clearly your training didn't work on me.
13:24
SPEAKER_00: Work in progress.
13:25
SPEAKER_00: And I want to just pile on, too.
13:27
SPEAKER_02: Pile on!
13:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, I mean, her policies do feel out of line.
13:32
She just had her state of the state address last night and she
13:35
announced $300
13:36
SPEAKER_00: stimulus checks and like,
13:38
SPEAKER_00: you know,
13:38
SPEAKER_00: $70 million in housing,
13:40
SPEAKER_00: which covers like 800 homes.
13:42
SPEAKER_00: It just seemed kind of not meeting the moment to me.
13:45
SPEAKER_00: I think people,
13:46
SPEAKER_00: especially the people I'm around,
13:47
a lot of younger people are looking for people who have more
13:50
transformational
13:51
SPEAKER_00: visions.
13:52
And so even if she has this,
13:54
you know,
13:54
experience and stuff like that,
13:55
I think...
13:56
You're going to see a lot of people who say we need a more
14:00
transformational vision right now.
14:02
We don't need just someone who stands up to Trump that hasn't
14:05
gotten us anywhere.
14:06
We need someone who kind of can build a new politics and a
14:10
bigger movement and not
14:11
SPEAKER_00: just pick off like a couple of Senate seats here and there.
14:14
Well,
14:14
I mean,
14:15
the only way to slow the president right now is the midterm
14:22
elections.
14:23
SPEAKER_03: And whether we think it or not,
14:26
SPEAKER_03: or want to believe it,
14:27
SPEAKER_03: you know,
14:28
SPEAKER_03: Maine is one of the very small number of states where there is,
14:31
SPEAKER_03: at least on paper,
14:32
SPEAKER_03: a legitimate opportunity to pick up a seat,
14:36
SPEAKER_03: to defeat a Republican to have a net gain.
14:40
And that is the system that we work in until we get another
14:45
direct shot at the
14:46
SPEAKER_03: Trump administration and so forth.
14:47
SPEAKER_03: But
14:48
I think that when you talk about transformative policies on her
14:51
first day,
14:51
SPEAKER_03: and again,
14:53
SPEAKER_03: I sound like I'm here as a surrogate for the governor.
14:57
SPEAKER_02: Maybe a little bit.
14:58
SPEAKER_03: I'm really more just arguing with the two of you.
15:01
But on her first day,
15:03
she expanded access to health care to 70,000 main people.
15:06
SPEAKER_03: through the expansion of Medicaid.
15:09
That's a policy that the former governor blocked for six years,
15:13
illegally blocked.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: But I think every Democrat would come in and do that.
15:17
SPEAKER_03: But this one did.
15:19
SPEAKER_03: She has advocated and passed some of the most holistic and comprehensive
15:26
SPEAKER_03: protections for access to abortion health care in the country.
15:30
SPEAKER_03: Now,
15:31
SPEAKER_03: look,
15:31
SPEAKER_03: I've disagreed with the governor on some other issues around gun violence
15:36
SPEAKER_03: prevention,
15:37
SPEAKER_03: for example.
15:38
SPEAKER_03: She is not as progressive as I am on an individual basis.
15:43
SPEAKER_03: That is absolutely true.
15:45
SPEAKER_03: She comes from a DA, AG, prosecutor background.
15:50
SPEAKER_03: That's who she is.
15:52
SPEAKER_03: But we don't know what Graham Plattner is going to be.
15:55
And he could just as easily be John Fetterman as he is someone
16:01
more progressive.
16:02
We don't know what he is going to be as a really good way of
16:05
protecting the status quo.
16:06
SPEAKER_00: I'll just put that out there.
16:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, listen, you're talking to a 54-year-old white guy.
16:11
SPEAKER_03: I mean, of course I'm protecting the status quo.
16:15
SPEAKER_03: I mean, goodness gracious.
16:16
SPEAKER_00: Okay, fair enough.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: Own that.
16:17
SPEAKER_00: That's good to own that.
16:19
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, David is nothing if not honest.
16:20
Okay,
16:21
so I want to talk more,
16:22
and you tell me the argument,
16:24
like the perspectives,
16:25
right?
16:25
SPEAKER_01: I want you to put on your consultant hat.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about gender.
16:30
SPEAKER_01: I want to talk about how complicated that is in this race.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: For me, personally, as another 50-something woman, I was really struck by
16:38
almost embarrassingly struck how captivated I was when Graham
16:42
first announced.
16:44
And that the way he presented,
16:46
I just thought it was,
16:47
I mean,
16:47
I got to meet him right away.
16:48
SPEAKER_01: And I thought I think it was genuine.
16:50
SPEAKER_01: I thought his wife was incredible.
16:51
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it felt genuine.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: And I was really noticing how much I responded to it.
16:56
SPEAKER_01: And then very quickly was like,
16:58
SPEAKER_01: oh,
16:58
I never would have been okay with a woman coming out of the
17:00
gates like this.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: you know, chopping wood.
17:03
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like I never would have.
17:04
And so I'm really curious how you think gender is playing out
17:08
in this race.
17:08
SPEAKER_01: How is that helping and hurting him?
17:09
SPEAKER_01: And then same,
17:10
SPEAKER_01: how much is Janet,
17:11
SPEAKER_01: I should say the governor,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
17:12
SPEAKER_01: she is our sitting governor.
17:14
How much is our governor getting punished for being not only
17:16
older,
17:17
but a woman?
17:18
It is much harder to be a woman candidate than it is to be a
17:24
male candidate.
17:25
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there's just no there's no question about that.
17:28
SPEAKER_03: And the governor has broken those glass ceilings.
17:32
SPEAKER_03: So in that regard, I think that she's held to a different standard.
17:37
and actions that are okay for a guy as an oyster farmer versus
17:43
the governor are very different.
17:45
SPEAKER_03: You know,
17:45
she's not going to be able to get up on stage and kind of bring
17:50
the anger or the
17:51
SPEAKER_03: energy
17:52
SPEAKER_03: or the frustration that Graham is able to.
17:56
She's not going to be able to use the same types of language or
17:58
imagery without a backlash.
18:00
SPEAKER_03: The tolerance for powerful women is different.
18:05
SPEAKER_03: You know,
18:05
she can't come out dropping F-bombs and telling people to kiss
18:10
her butt in the same
18:12
SPEAKER_03: way that a male candidate can.
18:14
SPEAKER_01: It's interesting to talk about this because Luca,
18:16
SPEAKER_01: as you know,
18:17
SPEAKER_01: David,
18:17
Luca and I have a substat going back and forth where we write
18:19
letters to each
18:20
SPEAKER_01: other.
18:20
And Luca wrote me something the other day where he was
18:22
convinced that this was
18:23
going to be the election of not do you want to have a beer with
18:26
the candidate,
18:27
SPEAKER_01: but are they going to come shovel your driveway candidate,
18:30
SPEAKER_01: right?
18:30
SPEAKER_01: Are they going to show up and like put muscle into the race?
18:34
SPEAKER_01: And I was struck in her state of the state last night.
18:37
She really actually literally took a line that Graham had used
18:41
in his original statement.
18:42
SPEAKER_01: issues when he was sort of talking about LGBT rights,
18:45
SPEAKER_01: where she said,
18:46
SPEAKER_01: if you seek to harm Maine people,
18:47
SPEAKER_01: you'll have to go through me first.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: And I was so struck by that because I was like,
18:52
SPEAKER_01: A,
18:52
SPEAKER_01: thinking about the gendered approach,
18:54
SPEAKER_01: like,
18:54
SPEAKER_01: does it read as well from her?
18:56
SPEAKER_01: Can she get away with that?
18:58
SPEAKER_03: Well,
18:58
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
18:58
SPEAKER_03: I think a lot of it comes down to she has to lean on her resume,
19:03
SPEAKER_03: lean on her successes in protecting Maine folks.
19:07
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
19:07
I think that if you were able to look objectively at the way
19:11
the state managed
19:12
SPEAKER_03: during COVID and,
19:14
SPEAKER_03: you know,
19:14
I think that she demonstrated her ability to really make the
19:19
tough decisions that
19:21
SPEAKER_03: protected Maine.
19:23
And I think we have to look beyond just right now we're talking
19:27
about the primary.
19:29
SPEAKER_03: but we also have to look at the general election.
19:32
And if you ask me what I thought Maine Democrats cared about
19:35
most right now,
19:37
It would not be tattoos or old social media posts or someone
19:41
who's 78 years old.
19:42
It's that they want somebody who can win,
19:46
who can give them the best chance to win.
19:49
SPEAKER_03: And the disagreement, of course, is about who that is.
19:52
SPEAKER_03: But that is,
19:53
I believe that Maine Democrats would compromise on just about
19:56
anything for a win
19:58
SPEAKER_03: against Senator Collins.
20:00
SPEAKER_03: Any single policy,
20:02
SPEAKER_03: any imperfection in a candidate,
20:04
SPEAKER_03: whether they're a newcomer or whether they're 78 or whatever it may be,
20:09
SPEAKER_03: if they think that they could knock off Collins,
20:12
who has been an incredibly effective politician when it comes
20:17
to her re-election.
20:18
SPEAKER_03: Incredibly tough, runs very smart campaigns.
20:22
SPEAKER_03: That is the reality that I see.
20:24
So I think I agree that,
20:27
you know,
20:27
Maine Democrats,
20:28
they want to win above everything else.
20:30
SPEAKER_00: But one thing.
20:32
SPEAKER_00: I think about everyone I talk to,
20:35
SPEAKER_00: because I talk to a lot of younger people and more progressive people,
20:38
SPEAKER_00: they are planning on voting for Graham Plattner.
20:41
SPEAKER_00: And I kind of,
20:43
SPEAKER_00: in the back of my mind,
20:44
SPEAKER_00: I have Zoran Mamdani's victory in New York City,
20:46
because I live in Greenpoint in Brooklyn as part of what they
20:50
call the Commie
20:51
SPEAKER_00: Corridor in New York,
20:53
which is a series of neighborhoods that are really young and
20:57
super progressive.
20:57
SPEAKER_00: And they kind of carried Zoran to victory
21:01
SPEAKER_00: in the primary and then again in the general.
21:03
SPEAKER_00: And a lot of people before he won that primary were saying,
21:07
SPEAKER_00: well,
21:07
SPEAKER_00: young people,
21:08
SPEAKER_00: they don't turn out.
21:08
SPEAKER_00: These people,
21:09
SPEAKER_00: you know,
21:10
all of this energy on social media around Zoran Mamdani is not
21:13
going to carry into
21:15
SPEAKER_00: an actual election.
21:17
SPEAKER_00: Of course, that was proven false.
21:20
SPEAKER_00: And Zoran actually won pretty handily in the general election.
21:23
SPEAKER_00: So should that make Janet Mills nervous?
21:26
I would not draw any conclusions about Maine or Maine politics
21:30
based on what
21:31
SPEAKER_03: happened in New York.
21:33
SPEAKER_03: Very different places, very different electorate, very different voters.
21:38
SPEAKER_03: And I also think structurally,
21:39
SPEAKER_03: if you look at the Democratic primary electorate,
21:43
SPEAKER_03: the folks who turn out in Democratic primaries,
21:46
SPEAKER_03: a plurality are women over 65 years old.
21:50
SPEAKER_03: And while I do think that younger folks tend to be more progressive,
21:55
SPEAKER_03: our population distribution,
21:57
SPEAKER_03: especially in a Democratic primary,
21:59
SPEAKER_03: does not lean that direction.
22:01
SPEAKER_03: If you want to win the Democratic primary,
22:03
SPEAKER_03: you have to make your case to older progressive women.
22:06
SPEAKER_00: I just,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: David,
22:07
SPEAKER_00: when I see videos of Graham Plattner's town halls,
22:12
SPEAKER_00: which are getting a lot of attention for drawing hundreds of people,
22:15
SPEAKER_00: the crowd is actually quite old.
22:17
You see town halls in Holton or Caribou with packed rooms and
22:22
it looks like everyone's over 60.
22:24
SPEAKER_00: So what if we are really underestimating that he is drawing out
22:27
SPEAKER_00: people who are less politically engaged.
22:30
And shouldn't that be something that Democrats want to go after
22:33
long term,
22:34
is engaging young people and also people who are less
22:38
politically engaged,
22:39
SPEAKER_00: similar to how Trump did?
22:40
SPEAKER_03: Well,
22:41
I would say that there is absolutely no question that Graham
22:44
has built this type of
22:45
excitement that we don't see a lot of in staid Northern New
22:49
England politics.
22:51
SPEAKER_03: I mean, there is absolutely an energy and an excitement there.
22:55
And that's why he's able to to fill those rooms and bring those
22:59
folks out.
23:00
SPEAKER_03: But when it comes to engaging with main voters,
23:04
SPEAKER_03: you know,
23:05
SPEAKER_03: primary is a different story than a general election.
23:07
SPEAKER_03: The numbers are lower.
23:08
SPEAKER_03: But main voters pay attention.
23:10
SPEAKER_03: They're politically active.
23:11
SPEAKER_03: They vote.
23:13
SPEAKER_03: Main voters go to town halls.
23:15
SPEAKER_03: You know, we still have a form of government in much of the state.
23:19
where the governance is held at an annual town meeting and you
23:23
go and there are
23:25
SPEAKER_03: warrants and you stand up and vote yes or no.
23:28
So,
23:29
you know,
23:29
people go out and people participate and they do go to meet
23:32
their candidates.
23:34
But when it comes down to whether or not they pull the lever or
23:37
mark the circle
23:38
SPEAKER_03: when they go into the voting booth,
23:40
SPEAKER_03: you know,
23:40
SPEAKER_03: that we'll have to see,
23:41
SPEAKER_03: you know,
23:42
SPEAKER_03: whether that excitement carries over.
23:45
SPEAKER_03: And I don't know the answer.
23:57
SPEAKER_01: So David, let's pivot for a second.
23:59
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to talk about the issue of the rights of transgender people.
24:03
It's an issue that I know you've cared about for a long time
24:05
and worked on and,
24:06
SPEAKER_01: you know,
24:06
SPEAKER_01: ahead of a lot of people,
24:08
SPEAKER_01: frankly.
24:08
And so now that we've learned more about your conservative
24:11
upbringing and all the
24:12
SPEAKER_01: ways you were raised,
24:13
SPEAKER_01: I'm even more curious,
24:15
SPEAKER_01: like,
24:15
SPEAKER_01: where did this commitment to the rights of transgender folks,
24:18
SPEAKER_01: where did it come from?
24:19
SPEAKER_01: Where did it all start?
24:21
SPEAKER_03: Well, it started in 2009.
24:23
SPEAKER_03: I was the deputy chief of staff in Governor John Baldacci's office,
24:26
SPEAKER_03: and myself and Pat Indy,
24:28
SPEAKER_03: who was chief legal counsel.
24:30
We were the lead staffers on a legislative effort to pass a law
24:36
that would allow
24:36
SPEAKER_03: same-sex couples to marry in May.
24:40
SPEAKER_03: And during that work,
24:43
SPEAKER_03: I really got to know the LGBTQ community in a different way,
24:47
SPEAKER_03: worked with them,
24:49
SPEAKER_03: learned about the challenges that the community faces.
24:54
I was introduced more and more to the level of problems that
25:00
the community faces
25:01
SPEAKER_03: and the way that they are often attacked or victimized or others face.
25:06
SPEAKER_03: as a way for folks to either gain or hold on to political power.
25:11
SPEAKER_03: It's a small,
25:13
SPEAKER_03: especially when we're talking about trans folks,
25:15
SPEAKER_03: a very small percentage of the population
25:19
that the right has found that they can activate voters'
25:23
uncertainty or their fear
25:26
SPEAKER_03: in a way that delivers political results.
25:28
And it all fits part and parcel to what we're seeing around
25:32
immigration and around
25:33
SPEAKER_03: the ice surges.
25:35
It's about creating an internal enemy that motivates a
25:39
conservative base to keep
25:42
SPEAKER_03: those folks in power.
25:44
And we see implications of that in Maine with the ballot
25:48
initiative that's coming
25:49
SPEAKER_03: that would ban trans kids from school sports.
25:52
SPEAKER_03: In that regard, we're not, you know, Maine is not unique.
25:55
SPEAKER_03: That's happening everywhere.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: So tell me why the trans issue is so,
26:02
SPEAKER_01: they found so much traction,
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Republicans found so much traction.
26:05
SPEAKER_01: Why is it such a win for them and such a tough issue for Democrats?
26:09
SPEAKER_03: Well,
26:09
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
26:10
when you start talking about protecting kids and you start
26:14
talking about fairness
26:15
SPEAKER_03: and safety of children and especially young girls,
26:20
SPEAKER_03: you know that I'm a girl dad.
26:22
SPEAKER_03: I have a daughter who played sports.
26:24
SPEAKER_03: You know,
26:25
they they use this as a way to kind of activate those
26:28
protective conservative
26:30
SPEAKER_03: instincts that people have.
26:31
SPEAKER_03: Look, there are real and legitimate policy conversations that can be had.
26:36
especially at the competitive level about what's appropriate
26:40
and what's not.
26:42
SPEAKER_03: But we're talking about treating scholarship college varsity athletes
26:48
SPEAKER_03: The same as we treat a six-year-old on an elementary school team where,
26:53
SPEAKER_03: you know,
26:54
SPEAKER_03: if you think about soccer,
26:54
SPEAKER_03: they're all just seagulls around a pack of french fries anyway.
26:57
SPEAKER_03: I mean, you know, there's no competitive advantage.
27:00
SPEAKER_03: There's no risk of injury.
27:02
SPEAKER_03: So,
27:02
SPEAKER_03: I mean,
27:02
SPEAKER_03: I think that,
27:02
SPEAKER_03: you know,
27:03
there's a disingenuousness there that plays on a real concern
27:08
that people have
27:09
SPEAKER_03: about fairness and safety.
27:12
SPEAKER_00: Do you think,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
27:13
SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of Democrats right now are running away from trans issues.
27:17
You know,
27:18
Gavin Newsom had like a big,
27:20
a notable interview where he kind of
27:23
SPEAKER_00: took a more conservative position on trans kids in sports.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: But meanwhile,
27:28
SPEAKER_00: in Maine,
27:29
SPEAKER_00: we have our two leading Senate candidates,
27:31
SPEAKER_00: Graham Plattner saying,
27:33
SPEAKER_00: I think he said something like,
27:34
SPEAKER_00: I'll fight like hell for trans kids.
27:36
And you have Governor Janet Mills taking her most notable stand
27:39
against Trump on trans issues.
27:41
What are the candidates in Maine seeing that other Democrats
27:45
aren't when they're
27:46
SPEAKER_00: running away from these issues?
27:47
Well,
27:47
I mean,
27:48
I think Maine has always gone its own way when it comes to
27:51
politics.
27:53
And I can't speak to why Gavin did what he did other than the
27:56
unexpected messenger.
27:58
SPEAKER_03: It feels to me like he took a shot.
28:01
SPEAKER_03: Nobody was asking him to take it.
28:03
And all he really did was hurt the queer community in
28:06
California that had supported him.
28:08
And I think that whether it's Graham or Governor Mills or
28:12
leadership in the state
28:13
SPEAKER_03: house or Shelley Pingree,
28:15
SPEAKER_03: who's running for Congress in the first congressional district,
28:19
these folks have always been staunch in their protections for
28:23
the civil liberties
28:24
SPEAKER_03: of minority groups.
28:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I will.
28:27
I'll just give Alison her credit here and also say something
28:30
nice about Janet
28:31
SPEAKER_00: Mills,
28:31
SPEAKER_00: which is that Alison is always telling me,
28:34
SPEAKER_00: hate it or love it.
28:35
SPEAKER_00: Janet Mills will always just like she will not bend.
28:38
SPEAKER_00: She will stand firm in her principles.
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And I think you do see that on this issue in particular.
28:43
I heard someone describe the governor's attitudes about
28:49
difficult decisions like this.
28:51
SPEAKER_03: As a former prosecutor in AG, she went into court.
28:56
and made arguments to deny someone their personal liberty and
29:02
to put them in jail
29:03
SPEAKER_03: or prison if convicted.
29:06
And to do that job,
29:08
you have to have a certainty in yourself and your
29:11
decision-making process.
29:13
And I think that certainty that she brings when she's gone
29:16
through the evidence
29:16
SPEAKER_03: herself,
29:17
SPEAKER_03: she's her own most trusted counsel.
29:20
SPEAKER_03: She listens to herself.
29:22
SPEAKER_03: She listens to others, but listens to herself.
29:25
SPEAKER_03: And I think that once she makes up her mind on something,
29:28
SPEAKER_03: it's very difficult to push her off that block.
29:32
SPEAKER_03: And that is both a strength and
29:34
SPEAKER_03: and a frustration.
29:35
SPEAKER_03: It's a strength when we agree, and it's a frustration when we don't.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah,
29:39
SPEAKER_01: I mean,
29:39
SPEAKER_01: I have to say,
29:40
SPEAKER_01: like,
29:40
I'm very clear that if I had to pick any politician that I
29:43
would want to spend time
29:44
SPEAKER_01: with,
29:44
SPEAKER_01: have dinner with or drink with,
29:46
SPEAKER_01: it will always be Janet Mills.
29:47
SPEAKER_01: You know, she is someone who has the conviction and the stamina.
29:53
SPEAKER_00: The stamina to have a drink with you?
29:55
SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
29:57
SPEAKER_01: Wait a minute.
29:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I have a lot of stamina.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: 8 p.m.
30:00
SPEAKER_03: Those were two ideas separated, I think.
30:02
SPEAKER_02: By a colon.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: But I do want to go back,
30:07
SPEAKER_01: David,
30:07
because I think there's a lot of folks who are coming into
30:10
their career may not
30:12
fully appreciate the enormous responsibility that is on your
30:17
shoulders when you are
30:18
SPEAKER_01: making decisions that impact huge communities.
30:21
SPEAKER_01: These are not easy to make,
30:23
SPEAKER_01: and it is so much easier to just try to go with whatever is most popular.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: But that's not real leadership.
30:28
SPEAKER_01: Right.
30:29
SPEAKER_03: Well,
30:29
SPEAKER_03: and I would just say that in Maine,
30:30
SPEAKER_03: when we were fighting over marriage equality,
30:33
SPEAKER_03: there were a whole lot of Democrats
30:36
who were not with us in 2012,
30:39
but are strongly and staunchly with us today.
30:44
And when it's these tough issues,
30:47
there's always those folks who are kind of late adopters.
30:50
SPEAKER_03: For some people,
30:51
SPEAKER_03: they will be afraid of standing up for trans kids particularly,
30:55
SPEAKER_03: but all trans people,
30:56
SPEAKER_03: until we demonstrate that we can win.
30:59
SPEAKER_03: And it's unfortunate that it's that way.
31:02
SPEAKER_03: But that's, you know, that's the political world we live in.
31:06
SPEAKER_03: Not everyone who's elected is a leader.
31:08
SPEAKER_03: In fact,
31:08
SPEAKER_03: I would say if we look at the people who are elected to serve us,
31:12
SPEAKER_03: they represent the population of the country very well.
31:15
SPEAKER_03: And that means that there are brave,
31:18
SPEAKER_03: courageous,
31:18
thoughtful leaders and there are dumbasses because that's how
31:23
the world is.
31:24
But I work in politics and to work in politics,
31:27
you have to be an optimist.
31:29
you have to believe that things can change and that they can
31:32
change for the better,
31:33
SPEAKER_03: or else why would you do it?
31:35
SPEAKER_03: And I think that the right wing focus on transgender people,
31:41
SPEAKER_03: transgender healthcare,
31:42
SPEAKER_03: transgender students,
31:44
SPEAKER_03: They are forcing a conversation that we may not be ready for today,
31:50
SPEAKER_03: but by forcing this conversation,
31:52
they are helping to prompt that conversation that explains what
31:56
trans people are,
31:57
SPEAKER_03: who they are,
31:58
SPEAKER_03: that they're your friends and neighbors,
32:00
SPEAKER_03: and you may not even realize that you know somebody who's transgender.
32:05
SPEAKER_03: And forcing those conversations,
32:07
SPEAKER_03: ultimately,
32:08
SPEAKER_03: I believe,
32:09
SPEAKER_03: every time they do that,
32:11
they move the needle a little bit further away from what their
32:14
intended outcome is.
32:16
The number one indicator about how someone thinks about whether
32:21
it's transgender
32:21
SPEAKER_03: sports or healthcare or you name it,
32:24
is whether or not they have personal experience with a
32:27
transgender person.
32:28
Somebody in their family,
32:29
somebody they know,
32:30
somebody they work with,
32:31
somebody they care about.
32:33
SPEAKER_03: as they force us to tell those stories and to have these fights,
32:38
SPEAKER_03: they're introducing more and more people to transgender people.
32:42
SPEAKER_03: And ultimately,
32:43
I think that they lose because they're mean and they're relying
32:50
on the worst
32:50
SPEAKER_03: impulses of folks and that all of us,
32:54
SPEAKER_03: regardless of our politics,
32:57
SPEAKER_03: we're all trying to be the best version of ourselves.
33:00
SPEAKER_00: So David,
33:01
you mentioned a little bit of what keeps you going is you have
33:04
some optimism and
33:06
SPEAKER_00: you do think about a brighter future.
33:08
If you were to write a storybook ending for Maine,
33:12
what would that look like?
33:13
SPEAKER_03: Gosh, an ending?
33:14
SPEAKER_03: No, I'm not writing an ending.
33:17
SPEAKER_03: What I would like to see for Maine is a state that embraces newcomers.
33:25
SPEAKER_03: and recognizes that right now our population is stagnant.
33:29
SPEAKER_03: I'd like to see us understand that we need people,
33:32
SPEAKER_03: whether they're new Mainers,
33:33
SPEAKER_03: immigrants,
33:35
SPEAKER_03: God forbid,
33:35
SPEAKER_03: people from Massachusetts or Brooklyn.
33:39
SPEAKER_03: You know, we need people to keep our state vibrant.
33:45
And I wish that there was a little bit more openness to new
33:50
ideas and new things.
33:52
SPEAKER_03: It's very hard to build in Maine,
33:55
SPEAKER_03: and that is true if you want to build a new national park,
33:59
SPEAKER_03: a wind farm,
34:01
SPEAKER_03: or a concert venue in Portland.
34:04
SPEAKER_03: You know,
34:05
SPEAKER_03: everything that requires some change is hard,
34:09
and I would like to see us be in a place of yes and a little
34:14
bit more often instead
34:16
SPEAKER_03: of no,
34:17
SPEAKER_03: not now,
34:18
SPEAKER_03: let's keep it the way it is.
34:20
I'm glad that you want to make sure that people can build new
34:23
wind farms and all
34:23
SPEAKER_01: kinds of good stuff in Maine.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: But who do you do this work for?
34:26
SPEAKER_01: I know it's not the wind farms.
34:28
SPEAKER_01: Who are the people you're doing it for?
34:29
SPEAKER_01: Why do you still work in politics?
34:31
SPEAKER_01: Who are you doing it for?
34:33
SPEAKER_03: Oh, gosh.
34:34
SPEAKER_03: Well, I do it for myself.
34:35
SPEAKER_03: I do it for the world I want to see.
34:37
SPEAKER_03: You know, I do it for my kids.
34:39
SPEAKER_03: You know, not every client I have is a white hat.
34:43
SPEAKER_03: Not every idea that I believe in is necessarily the right one.
34:48
SPEAKER_03: But I'm certainly willing to test that.
34:51
SPEAKER_03: And C,
34:52
SPEAKER_03: ultimately,
34:53
SPEAKER_03: while I don't agree with every decision they make,
34:56
SPEAKER_03: I trust the voters,
34:57
SPEAKER_03: especially the voters of Maine,
34:59
SPEAKER_03: that if I do my job,
35:02
SPEAKER_03: they'll do theirs.
35:03
SPEAKER_03: And by that,
35:04
I mean ultimately decide the direction and what they believe to
35:08
be best for the
35:08
SPEAKER_03: state.
35:09
SPEAKER_03: And despite being disappointed,
35:11
I still have that faith that the voters ultimately try to do
35:16
the right thing and
35:17
SPEAKER_03: eventually do the right thing.
35:19
and you've had a long career 25 years i think in maine what
35:24
what keeps you invested
35:25
in maine politics specifically why do you trust the voters of
35:28
maine more than more
35:30
than any other place well this is my home yeah i mean i see my
35:33
neighbors i see how
35:34
they act i see what they do you know you move to new england
35:38
you move to maine i
35:38
SPEAKER_03: moved in november of 2002
35:41
SPEAKER_03: And it was a snowy-ass winter.
35:43
SPEAKER_03: I mean, real snow.
35:44
And I did not understand what snow was that comes and doesn't
35:48
leave back then.
35:50
SPEAKER_03: I didn't know any.
35:51
SPEAKER_03: You know, and it was hard to meet people.
35:53
That Yankee reservedness of New England,
35:55
and northern New England in particular,
35:56
is real.
35:58
SPEAKER_03: But the folks here,
36:00
they step up for their communities and their neighbors in a way
36:03
that I've not seen
36:04
SPEAKER_03: in many places.
36:05
And,
36:06
you know,
36:06
there's a joke,
36:07
you know,
36:07
that New Englanders are kind but not nice.
36:12
SPEAKER_03: And what that means is,
36:13
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:13
SPEAKER_03: they may be a little grumpy,
36:15
SPEAKER_03: you know,
36:15
SPEAKER_03: shoveling 24 inches of snow out of their driveway.
36:18
SPEAKER_03: But once they finish their driveway,
36:20
SPEAKER_03: they come over and help you with the hedgerow at the end of yours.
36:25
And that has been my experience from the community I live in
36:28
and the people I've met here.
36:31
Maine really is just one big small town and that every example
36:36
of goodness and
36:37
SPEAKER_03: righteousness that you can think of,
36:39
SPEAKER_03: you can find an example of in a short swing of a stick away from you.
36:44
SPEAKER_01: Well,
36:44
SPEAKER_01: I think,
36:44
SPEAKER_01: David,
36:44
that you definitely took some of your religious upbringing and
36:48
you're bringing your
36:49
politics as your religion because I certainly feel inspired
36:54
talking to you and
36:55
SPEAKER_01: really motivated to continue to care.
36:58
SPEAKER_01: You're someone who's cared for a very long time.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: And I always learn something when I talk to you.
37:02
And I'm so grateful that you would be our very first guest on
37:06
Politics Between Us.
37:08
SPEAKER_03: Well, that is so kind, Allison.
37:09
SPEAKER_03: Thank you.
37:10
SPEAKER_03: And,
37:10
SPEAKER_03: you know,
37:10
SPEAKER_03: I would just say that in this time in politics,
37:14
there are lots of progressives who base their progressivism on
37:19
their faith and
37:20
SPEAKER_03: their religious traditions.
37:22
And I firmly believe that social justice and the
37:26
Judeo-Christian world started with
37:30
SPEAKER_03: the Beatitudes and
37:32
And that if you look at those messages,
37:35
it is about helping the poor,
37:38
lifting up the center.
37:39
And I think that Maine is a place that is faithful in its
37:45
regard for neighbor and
37:47
SPEAKER_03: friend and family.
37:48
SPEAKER_03: And that's what I see when I work across the state are those attitudes.
37:55
SPEAKER_01: Amen.
37:56
Yeah,
37:57
I mean,
37:57
Allison has been telling me that the left needs religion for a
38:00
while.
38:00
So I think that certainly speaks to something that we've been
38:03
talking about between
38:04
SPEAKER_00: the two of us.
38:05
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, David, thank you so much.
38:06
It was really fun to have you as our first guest and have
38:09
someone to wrestle this stuff with.
38:11
SPEAKER_00: And another voice to challenge Allison and I is always good.
38:15
SPEAKER_03: Well, I appreciate it.
38:17
SPEAKER_03: It's been a lot of fun.
38:18
SPEAKER_03: And I wish you the best of luck with the podcast.
38:21
SPEAKER_03: Thanks, David.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
38:33
Bye.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Hey, everyone, welcome to Age Bait.
38:50
This is a segment that we're going to try out where Luca finds
38:54
something in sort of
38:55
SPEAKER_01: popular culture right now on the Internet,
38:57
SPEAKER_01: maybe a tweet,
38:58
SPEAKER_01: maybe,
38:59
SPEAKER_01: well,
38:59
SPEAKER_01: probably not a meme.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: I don't even know if those are cool anymore,
39:02
but he's going to do something that brings in his generational
39:05
lens and tries to
39:06
SPEAKER_01: get a sense of whether
39:08
SPEAKER_01: In my generation, we have any idea what the heck is going on.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: So I think I'm excited to try this.
39:14
SPEAKER_01: I'm not really sure.
39:15
I'm not sure what he's going to show me right now,
39:17
but I'm putting myself in his hands.
39:20
SPEAKER_01: So Luca, take it away.
39:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, this is a bit of a test of your understanding, Allison.
39:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited that you're playing along with this.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: I am pulling up Instagram here and I'm going to show you a quick reel.
39:34
SPEAKER_00: So you'll see here a blonde woman backstage at a huge music festival.
39:39
SPEAKER_00: The video is captioned, normal widows, quote, I miss my husband.
39:43
SPEAKER_00: What?
39:44
SPEAKER_00: And then it goes, Erica Kirk at Rolling Loud, Miami, 2026.
39:48
And the blonde woman is shot out of a cannon onto stage and
39:52
starts dancing.
39:53
SPEAKER_00: The crowd goes wild.
39:55
SPEAKER_00: What do you think?
39:58
SPEAKER_00: What are you seeing?
40:01
SPEAKER_01: You're kidding me.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Wait, that's actually Erica Kirk?
40:06
SPEAKER_00: It's an AI video.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: It's an AI video.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: That was AI?
40:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: That is an AI video of Erica Kirk.
40:15
SPEAKER_00: Basically,
40:16
SPEAKER_00: what has happened on the internet is after Charlie Kirk was assassinated,
40:20
SPEAKER_00: Erica Kirk has...
40:22
SPEAKER_00: Her publicity has really...
40:25
SPEAKER_00: been interesting and people have been dissecting what she's been doing.
40:28
She has basically gone on what people are calling a grief tour
40:31
where she has gone
40:32
SPEAKER_00: around the country like selling tickets,
40:35
SPEAKER_00: doing big events,
40:36
SPEAKER_00: stuff like that.
40:37
SPEAKER_01: Okay, so wait, I can't believe you picked this as the first one to do.
40:42
like this of all age bait i'm like so you're telling so you're
40:46
gonna pick first of
40:47
all like one of the toughest political issues that came with
40:51
the murder of charlie
40:53
kirk and then you're gonna pick like so you've got you've got
40:56
all kinds of issues
40:57
coming up you've got and then then you're gonna slam a woman
40:59
and you know that's
41:00
gonna piss me off okay well and then you're gonna pick i'm like
41:03
what this is not
41:04
the one i want to start with i mean this is ridiculous i have i
41:08
don't like this at
41:09
SPEAKER_01: all
41:10
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
41:11
you didn't even let me get to the interesting part of the story
41:14
where there's a
41:15
SPEAKER_00: leaked audio of Erica Kirk two weeks after Charlie Kirk was killed.
41:20
Like,
41:20
she's on the phone call with her team being like,
41:23
and have you seen the merch sales?
41:25
SPEAKER_00: Nearly 200,000, like, or something like that.
41:27
SPEAKER_01: Okay, well, listen, I actually feel like...
41:30
SPEAKER_01: strangely serious about this, which is not.
41:32
SPEAKER_01: Because I feel like this is your generation.
41:35
SPEAKER_01: You are ready to make fun of everybody's everything.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I just do not want to be in a world where we make fun.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: You know,
41:46
SPEAKER_01: that everything becomes a spectacle and everyone is evaluated on...
41:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay,
41:51
you don't think Erica Kirk is turning her husband's death into
41:55
a spectacle?
41:56
SPEAKER_00: She had like a rally basically with Trump afterwards.
41:58
SPEAKER_00: That spectacle itself.
42:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I don't... Well, okay, I don't like any of it.
42:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't like any of it.
42:03
SPEAKER_01: I don't like any of it.
42:04
SPEAKER_01: I don't like...
42:05
Which is weird for me to say because I literally love politics
42:08
and here I am and
42:09
SPEAKER_01: politics is a spectacle.
42:10
SPEAKER_01: So I get it.
42:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's never been the spectacle that I like.
42:15
SPEAKER_01: And I guess that's what I react to.
42:16
SPEAKER_01: I don't really love the spectacle of concerts.
42:19
SPEAKER_01: I don't, you know, I...
42:21
SPEAKER_01: So maybe this is more about me than generation, but- Right.
42:24
SPEAKER_00: There was loud music involved.
42:25
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I hate the loud music, Luca.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: You know that.
42:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm so startling.
42:29
SPEAKER_01: Like, I can't handle that.
42:31
SPEAKER_01: And not to mention the trampoline.
42:33
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, come on.
42:34
SPEAKER_01: So that's AI generated?
42:35
SPEAKER_00: It was all AI generated.
42:37
SPEAKER_00: So that was like- Okay, we're totally screwed.
42:40
SPEAKER_02: We're screwed.
42:41
SPEAKER_02: I wasn't even thinking.
42:42
SPEAKER_02: I thought you were just showing me some performer.
42:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:46
SPEAKER_00: Well,
42:46
SPEAKER_00: I think it's personally,
42:47
I think it's so funny because I do think she is just like kind
42:52
of had a really
42:53
SPEAKER_00: bizarre reaction to her husband's death.
42:56
SPEAKER_00: And I don't know.
42:57
SPEAKER_00: It just makes me.
42:59
SPEAKER_01: I get that.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: I, um,
43:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I just have a really strong reaction.
43:02
SPEAKER_01: Maybe it's because what's happening with women in politics right now.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: It's not any different.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: It's not any different.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: I mean, I just like you want to go really dark.
43:09
SPEAKER_01: Like all the Epstein stuff is really hard for me.
43:12
SPEAKER_01: How do we accept that kind of treatment of women and some men?
43:17
SPEAKER_01: How do we let that kind of power imbalance happen?
43:19
So I feel like I might be in a little bit of a sensitive place
43:23
about that.
43:24
SPEAKER_01: Like I can't stand the spectacle.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: This is like hugely important what's happening.
43:30
SPEAKER_01: And how power works and how people are impacted and how people are hurt.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: And when we just make a spectacle of it in light of it,
43:37
I feel like we never get to the freaking underlying issues that
43:42
are structurally
43:43
SPEAKER_01: really keep people down.
43:46
this is gonna be a hard segment for you then because a lot of
43:50
what I'm gonna show
43:50
you is kind of like how people are like bringing I think
43:54
there's so many dark
43:55
things in politics right now and so many people acting kind of
43:58
deranged that the
44:00
only way to get through it for people is to kind of like make
44:03
light of it and like
44:04
SPEAKER_02: play with it and so like that's such a good point
44:08
SPEAKER_00: It's just I think sometimes people are just like,
44:11
SPEAKER_00: this is my only way to process it is to,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:13
SPEAKER_00: make AI videos of Erica Kirk and just like,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:17
SPEAKER_00: like.
44:17
SPEAKER_01: I think that's such a good point, Luca.
44:20
SPEAKER_01: And I that because well,
44:21
SPEAKER_01: first of all,
44:21
SPEAKER_01: let's just say like,
44:22
SPEAKER_01: I don't think when people think of my positive qualities,
44:25
SPEAKER_01: like humor is not like way up there.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: It's not like I'm particularly known.
44:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I think you're right.
44:32
SPEAKER_01: And in some ways,
44:33
SPEAKER_01: I,
44:33
cause actually one of the things I love about our relationship
44:35
is I think you,
44:36
SPEAKER_01: you do try to make me take myself less seriously.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: So you're right.
44:40
SPEAKER_01: The segment might be hard for me, but maybe that's exactly what I need.
44:45
SPEAKER_01: And, um,
44:46
SPEAKER_00: Well,
44:46
SPEAKER_00: I think it could be good for both of us because,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:50
SPEAKER_00: maybe you'll laugh a little bit here and there.
44:53
SPEAKER_00: And then,
44:53
SPEAKER_00: you know,
44:54
SPEAKER_00: maybe I will think twice before I make fun of a Republican,
44:59
SPEAKER_00: which,
45:00
SPEAKER_00: you know,
45:01
SPEAKER_00: we'll see.
45:01
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't be the worst outcome.
45:02
SPEAKER_01: Wouldn't be the worst outcome.
45:03
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
45:04
SPEAKER_01: As always, that's kind of why we're doing it all, Luca.
45:07
SPEAKER_01: Look at that.
45:08
SPEAKER_01: Trying to help each other grow a little bit.
45:10
SPEAKER_01: I love that.
45:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, that was fun, Luca, sort of.
45:15
SPEAKER_01: But how about, like, next time I get to bring you something?
45:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you can bring me something from the 1980s.
45:20
Yeah,
45:22
but I'm going to have to find it in the microfiche section of
45:26
the library.
45:27
SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what that means.
45:29
SPEAKER_00: Microfiche?
45:30
SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's the end of that episode right there.
45:34
SPEAKER_00: I literally don't know what that means.
45:43
SPEAKER_01: All right, Luca, I'll talk to you tomorrow.
45:45
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, talk to you tomorrow.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: Awesome.
45:47
SPEAKER_00: Bye.
45:48
SPEAKER_01: Bye.