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Trauma, Resilience, and Parenting Autism: The Choices That Shape Mothers · Inchstones with Sarah | Autism Advocacy & Caregiver Stories

• 0:00
  Speaker A: Everyone, welcome back to Inch Stones today. My friend Kit Perez is here. Fellow substack author, counterintelligence specialist, trauma informed counselor. She wears many hats. And one of the things that draws me most to people that wear many hats like Kit, is their ability to sit within complexities and stay curious to the ever evolving world, not only within the system of their home and their work, but outside of their own vacuum, as I like to say. And Kit, thank you for being here today and for what you do to constantly challenge assumptions and reorient to the ever evolving world around us.
• 0:45
  Speaker B: Thank you for having me back. It was so much fun last time. I'm glad we did it again.
• 0:49
  Speaker A: There we go. Well, I mentioned to you in our prep work and prep email that one of the things that I love that emerged from our first conversation was the idea that things happen to us. Stressful, life altering curveballs, painful situations, health scares. Things that radically shift what our expectations are for our body, mind and souls. And we get to, we get to process those as humans. And what you had, I had shared about was that sometimes there's this mismatch of, well, I survived something, or I am currently surviving a really tough, heavy life event. And it's allowed me to have two things. A strength in one way, but a paralyzing emotive processing that I have to go through in another. And I'd love to kind of dive into that with you today because I know that my audience of special needs mothers are living in this world, in reality that is affecting their body and systems and minds unlike anything that they expected. And it is painful. And delving into why that is, why is, why is the unexpected or things that are radically hard so painful to go through.
• 2:19
  Speaker B: Well, first, that's, that's quite the question to start with. My brain's going, do, do, do.
• 2:26
  Speaker A: That's how we like it though, right?
• 2:28
  Speaker B: Right. So, first off, I do want to point out that when we're talking about trauma, there is a definition of trauma and it's not things that make me uncomfortable, no matter how uncomfortable they make you. And I think that part of the reason why people have expanded this definition of trauma is because it feels like their experience is not being validated unless there is a label for it. So, for instance, I know you don't apply the label trauma to your experience with your kids, but I do know women who do. And it's almost like, I mean, aside from the part where talking about raising your children as traumatic has all sorts of, I guess, problematic pieces to it. Right. But it's almost like saying, if I don't call it trauma, people aren't going to understand that it is affecting me at a very visceral level. And I think that we can be correct about the definition while also honoring that experience and saying, hey, this is affecting you. It is causing a forced reorientation, if you will. And it does so not just in the physical, day to day, but in the mental, in the emotional, even in the spiritual, where all facets of who you are and who you are becoming are going through change. And it's important to honor that. And because, like, when you use the word painful, it doesn't just mean painful as in inconvenient, it means painful as in who am I? Am I the person who, quote, unquote, has what it takes to do this? I would argue that nobody has what it takes. You build what it takes. Right.
• 4:31
  Speaker A: You know, I, as you were sitting there thinking of the application to a reality that myself and other listeners have.
• 4:42
  Speaker B: Is.
• 4:45
  Speaker A: Going through a parking lot to get into a grocery store is not peaceful in any sense of the word. There's no breath of a skill of walking. And a child being led by a parent to get into a place to buy sustenance for the family. Right. That takes a mental preparation and the ability to pivot when likely anticipate a collapsing in a parking lot. Or the lack of peripheral orientation of my children then affects how I have to be their set of eyes because they're not seeing things that I am a typical developmental line. So the. It's not trauma per se. It's a. As you say, it's. It's a building of a skill set that is so unexpected that it feels traumatic in that way because it never. That's not going to end. And I wonder about the recalibration to engaging, leaving the home, doing those things without aligning it with trauma. Right. And just processing it live and saying, I get to build this skill set. And I. That's something that I always like. That's the mindset that I take. Yet it is a very conscious choice and requires a lot of padding on each side for a really simple human movement that a lot take for granted.
• 6:28
  Speaker B: Yeah. And I think too, I want to clarify and say that just because it doesn't come under the DSM definition of trauma doesn't mean that some of the effects are not still there. Would you say that you're hypervigilant or would you say you have developed a very precise type of vigilance?
• 6:51
  Speaker A: I think that that Is it's, it's probably for me, it's both where I am now and it depends on the day and it depends on the other things in the system and what's going on. Sometimes hypervigilance becomes the default. If I really look back along the timeline, I'm thankful that that is not the only vigilante set that I have. I think that it is a much more protected vigilance now and much more life informed choice that I have. So in theory, I think that I've retained like a massive greater understanding of my vigilance. So I choose differently going forward. It still has a lot to grow for sure.
• 7:46
  Speaker B: Well, I think you're hitting the nail on the head though. And that's kind of going back to the initial topic that you were talking about is it's not a compulsion. It is not something that you are driven to do emotionally to feel safe. It is something that you choose to do because you understand the reality that you live in. You understand, for instance, that your quote unquote threat profile is different than mine. It's different than most people's. And you make conscious, not compulsive, choices to deal with that reality.
• 8:19
  Speaker A: Yes.
• 8:20
  Speaker B: Whereas, for instance, if I am, if I'm going to a grocery store here where I live in, in Montana, I don't look at it the same way as you do. Right. I don't really have to worry about anything more than just making sure I'm not getting hit by a car as I cross the parking lot. Right. Sure, I'm looking around for people who may want to carjack me or whatever, but the likelihood of that where I live is so low that to be constantly worried about it would waste emotional resources right now if I were to come visit you in New York somewhere. That's gotta shift right now I have to reorient to the fact that I am no longer in Kansas anymore, so to speak, and need to reassess what choices I'm making for that reality. And when you're talking about healing your stuff, part of that is just understanding the reality. The reality that things happen to you. And as you know, Sam pointed out last week, you own that now. You get to choose what you do with it. You get to choose what. What it does to you or what you do with it. And when you can unhook. I talk about the compulsion wagon all the time, Right. If you can unhook the wagon, you get to still drive and you don't have to drag all of these things with you that are forcing you into choices that you don't actually need to make.
• 9:59
  Speaker A: It's true. You know, the analogy popped up in my head. I loved choose your own adventure books growing up. Like, I love them. I thought they were giving me such autonomy as a young child to. To. To go through those, you know, the pathway into the book and then being like, well, what if I had chose another? And then you reread it and choose the other options. No. No woman in their 30s pulls off the, you know, motherhood with profound autism. Choose your own adventure. Because the thought is, is that either choice that you make from that ground feels like a loss. And what I always like to challenge is that the loss is not in the reality. The loss is in thinking that you don't have a choice when you really do. And the sadness that weighs with me always is like that. The perpetual sadness becomes the majority of people thinking that their choices have been lost. When the choices aren't gone, it's the loss of perceived reality that is gone. And that's heavy. That's not an easy concept to sit with. I mean, I could meditate on that for hours and just breathe through that phrase. Yet that doesn't mean that the choices aren't still there.
• 11:22
  Speaker B: Absolutely. And you're right, that is a heavy thing. When you consider I have choice A or choice B. Well, actually, you have choices that run through F or G, but you're not allowing yourself to consider them. Or you don't know that they exist because your orientation is limited. Or you're missing a piece of reality that you haven't accepted. Or it's. I read a piece the other day by Adam PT Yes. You know, exactly the one that I'm talking about where he's saying, you know, when talking about addiction, for instance, that's the solution. We look at addiction as the problem, but addiction is the solution that your body's survival system has come up with to deal with the things you don't want to deal with, and that ends up limiting your options. And so when you refocus your ideas as, okay, I have autonomy, I have agency. That's a huge deal because it frees you up to. I mean, essentially, you're choosing reality instead of your hallucination of it or your desire. I want this to be my reality. I want to believe that I can't stop any of this. I want to believe that I am locked into this idea. People did things to me, and therefore there's nothing I can do about it. And we know that's not the case both of us have been through some pretty horrific things in our life, and yet we both understand we have agency.
• 12:56
  Speaker A: Why do you think that the switch, and I'm glad you brought that, that article by Adam PT Why do you think that acknowledging that an addiction or a maybe a, a choice to behave in a certain way over and over and over again does not allow, without really sitting in what I like to call this hot loneliness, right, of realizing that that is actually a solution to something that you haven't even unearthed about oneself. Why does that become, why is that so confusing for the world to understand so much? Because I don't think I really came into understanding of that concept. It had to have only been maybe a few years ago at this point.
• 13:55
  Speaker B: I think we seek comfort by default. Anything that makes us feel uncomfortable, we instinctively shy away from. We like comfort. We like easy. We like. And it's something that you see, there's so many good writers on substack, right? And there's a certain core of writers that I find myself, myself reading over and over and over again. And they all say some variation of if you want to grow, you have to be intentional about seeking out discomfort because you will not do it if you allow yourself to just float. You will always float to the easier side of the river. And you have to choose to swim out to the middle. And I think that that's a really important heavy. It's the core of it, right? You have to choose. And if you don't believe you have a choice, guess what? You're not gonna do. You're not gonna choose.
• 14:51
  Speaker A: You're not gonna choose. And I think that for my own self, and I think a lot of mothers in a similar life situation like I am in, it's very easy to feel like, because this happened for me, I get to relieve my discomfort in any other way of my choice. Because there's so much discomfort in my reality that I'm just going to, I'm going, You know, there's so many jokes. I, I, I had to really mute some of this kind of content because there's all this, like, all this, you know, cacophony about, oh, well, oh, you, oh, did your son have, you know, smeared, smeared his bowels all over his wall this morning? I guess tequila comes early tonight, right? Like have the tequila shot earlier. Like, guess who, guess who gets to go, you know, what's, what, what are you doing to treat yourself later? Or, you know, I guess wine on Monday, it's at 4 o'.
• 15:59
  Speaker B: Clock.
• 15:59
  Speaker A: Works like that kind of content Online has become this norm in the motherhood realm, specifically around severe and special needs families. And it's a way to alleviate, I think this, that what's underneath as a joke, but it's actually not. People aren't joking about it. They're literally like, I have to have a release valve of something and I'm going to use the easiest thing, which is in a lot of modern day mommy culture, wine, alcohol. And it doesn't solve anything. All it does is put this coat of balm.
• 16:40
  Speaker B: Absolutely. And can you imagine being. Because you see it not just in the special needs community, but you see it in normal mom community. This idea of the wine mommy.
• 16:54
  Speaker A: And I was one, Kit, I was that. I was one. There's no hiding from it. I own it. Like, I know now I was running from something, was running from something deep. Yet, man, that's a really easy culture to go. Yes, sign me up. Oh yeah, for sure. My sitter comes at so and so time.
• 17:15
  Speaker B: But. And go ahead.
• 17:19
  Speaker A: And it is a solution that is only going to create a greater and deeper problem. Yet until you sit with that, you will choose the comfort of that nervous system release valve.
• 17:43
  Speaker B: And it has so many different effects in realms that we don't even consider. You know, we, we joke about the Internet being forever, but I don't think that we really understand what that means. It means, for instance, that and about half of my son's raising years, so to speak, were done pre Facebook, pre social media. You know, it was not really a thing. And we didn't realize in the beginning or I didn't, I'm sure some people did how much of that is still there. And now I talk, for instance, about, you know, don't put pictures of your kids online. And I've caught a lot of flack for saying that, but they don't get to consent. And now can you imagine, for instance, my son's now 28. Holy balls. But you have a 28 year old. Good Lord. I. That's crazy, right?
• 18:39
  Speaker A: It's wild.
• 18:40
  Speaker B: But when I think about you saying, for instance, I get to do this. That is a far different baseline than is summer vacation over yet? My God, will somebody take these little brats off my hands? Now imagine if I had had a social media account filled with wine mommy stuff and my kids are brats and, and all of this quote unquote humorous content about what a drag my children's existence is on my identity and my life and what I'm trying to do with it, and then they grow up because first of all, if I'm making content like this, it's coming from somewhere. It is coming from an actual belief. And then these kids grow up with that belief internalized that you have given them that they are a problem, they are an inconvenience. They are all these things. And now they grow up and they see all this content, whether it be as they grow up or as adults. Wow, that's fantastic. I really appreciate that. My mother made money. Like part of her income was augmented by talking trash about the fact that I exist. And we don't see that as a problem. Why don't we see that as a problem? Whereas you're coming at it from the perspective of, I get to do this. Yes, this is a responsibility. Yes, it is tiring, it is hard. It is all of those things. It is also the greatest privilege of my life.
• 20:20
  Speaker A: The quote that I love, I think Gandhi originally said it, maybe it was upheld by one of the great Catholic priests, Fulton Sheen. Is that a civilization is only as. It only rises to the level of its womanhood. And we're screwed.
• 20:41
  Speaker B: What? I said we're screwed.
• 20:44
  Speaker A: Oh, we're screwed. We're totally screwed. But I think about how the level of my own womanhood was augmented by having children that I never in a million years thought would be given to me to raise. And I wonder and think often about what it asks of me and what it reveals to me about the level of womanhood that is inside of me. And I really do believe it's inside every woman and mother. I really do. I don't think that there's a way to verbalize and vocalize that or write about it without someone choosing to go through and seek it out themselves and seek out that the. The. The lessons that are hovering right in front of you to do. Yet it. It really. It really makes me feel a deep level of personal satisfaction and validation to know that the children that I have and get to raise are both creating discomfort in my conditioned expectations in a way that is so absolutely freeing and the most accelerant to growth that I could ever have imagined. Now that from the way in which I write always lands as well. You must be privileged. You must be xyz. I understand that socioeconomics plays a role in this, which is why I'm always fighting about the system in all this and why we're not supported and why there isn't more support set up for women and mothers like myself. And you can go anywhere and find women always rising from the ashes of their own life choices. You find it in everywhere. Even as damned we are as a country. You can find them everywhere.
• 22:45
  Speaker B: Then what's the difference? Right? What's the difference between them and the wine mommies that are making money off telling everybody how horrifying an experience it is to be a mother?
• 22:59
  Speaker A: Totally.
• 23:00
  Speaker B: Totally. I would argue it's actually a pretty simple. Pretty simple answer.
• 23:06
  Speaker A: Talk to me about women and mothers and the. What the first choice might look like in terms of realizing that you do have a choice to reorient to reality. Because I love. In what plane? I guess, you know, when I first. The first question I asked or imposed was, we can go. We go through very difficult things in life, and they teach us and they build a strength that we never realized we had yet. The choice to go through something that is going to rip you apart and put you back together is hard to choose. So how do we separate the strength and the skillset learned versus the maybe agony, grief, sadness, loneliness of that. Of the. Of the. The process, per se? Because I think that, as I was saying to you before, sometimes a lot of women and mothers that I talk to are so exhausted from the reality that choosing to do another thing of discomfort and to reorient or to have a different lens or choose a different lens on their life, they will push that off till the cows come home. Because it's not un. It's not unsafe. It's just another level of discomfort. Why is. Why do we do that?
• 24:39
  Speaker B: I think that there's a difference. And I'm thinking out loud as I say this, so, you know, I'm. I'm kind of synthesizing on the go, so to speak. There's a difference between things that happen to you and things that you choose, right? And yet both of them, what you do with them is deliberate. And so I think that if you have things in your past that happened to you that you have not dealt with, that you have not taken ownership for and decided to heal, that will become part of your orientation, and therefore it will drive the level of discomfort that you can stand, that you can endure. And so, no, you're not gonna want to choose more discomfort. Why would you? You're already overwhelmed from the discomfort that you live in, and that's compounded by the discomfort that you've carried into the situation that you live in. And so if you take for a second, you take someone, for instance, who went through a childhood where they were consistently minimized or they were consistently told that they didn't matter or treated as though they didn't matter because maybe there wasn't overt abuse. It was just this knowing and, and you know what I'm talking about. As kids, we know things even if we can't put our finger on it. We know what it feels like when our parents have expectations that are unable to be met or performance is, is what drives the level of love that you get that day or whatever the case may be. You take that into wherever you go. Like wherever you go, there you are. Right? Yep. And now add on. Now let's say I have a special needs child. And I think, okay, I was a normal child and my parents didn't really want me or didn't make me feel as though I mattered. How am I supposed to make this child feel as though they matter when they probably don't even know what I'm talking about? I can't have normal conversations with them or whatever that individual situation is. And now I'm saying, you know, Randove on the Internet comes along and says, oh, you should see that as a privilege. That sounds psychotic. Like what, quote unquote, sane mother would look at our conversation and go, man, I want that in my life.
• 27:09
  Speaker A: Exactly.
• 27:09
  Speaker B: Because I'm doing so well with everything else.
• 27:12
  Speaker A: Right. Well, I think that that's part of the. Why I love talking about comfort and discomfort and the choices is that we all our body is a system, but we can't. The only person that I can't run away from is myself. I can run away from every other person but myself. And my favorite thing from Matthew McConaughey's green light is he said in the book McConaughey, you're the only person you can't run away from. And it's just the truth. And the more in which we can just sit with that and know that any external comment to the reality that I live, that you live is, is solely a comment. It has nothing that is grounded in any reality even, even validative support. I always say, like there are some people that are incredibly validating to me and the hardships and the differences and the discomfort of my life. That validation is a, is an external source of, of. Of a, of a comfort balm that is not. That doesn't stem internal. And that has to be where the origin of choosing an extra source of, of discomfort to reorient to something and to radically shift the way you look at your own life as a way of solving what problem that you, you think exists. Right. I mean I, I could, I could and I do. I don't want to ever think, act like these moments don't come. And I'll be honest, it happened last night very fleetingly to me in the middle of bath time for my kids because my son is still not potty trained and my daughter's getting there, and I generally end up with a stream of urine on my body during bath time. It's just. It's part of it because he. The warm water will somehow get him to, you know, start the process of urination. I mean, the toilet's right there and move it. And likely in a. Maybe a year, I don't know how long it might click that oral motor, the motor planning might decide to realize that pattern. All that to say is, I'm getting them bathed and out. And I caught myself going, they're 8 and 10 years old. I shouldn't be doing this. They're 8 and 10 years old.
• 29:26
  Speaker B: I shouldn't be doing this.
• 29:27
  Speaker A: And I just caught myself, because as soon as that thought happened, I looked over and my daughter's wrapped in her towel and she's grabbed her toothbrush. Now she can't brush her teeth on her own fully, But I thought, we've come a long way because she wouldn't even touch a toothbrush years ago. And it completely took that previous thought of, I can't believe I have to. To. Holy smokes, we've come so far. And those moments where you catch yourself, I think, are where the. Or where the most beautiful reorientation happens, especially for mothers in similar situations. It's that catch. It's that, whoa, whoa, whoa, stop taking your reality, Notice what's happening and find the thing that has propelled forward or has grown because it's there. But the default is going to be, I can't believe why. Oh, Lord, here we go again.
• 30:39
  Speaker B: And if you focus on that, if you grab that, because somebody I know, one of my friends, he talks about the power of thought, right? And he always says the first thought is free. You know, things pop into your head all over the place, and that one's free. You can't. Whatever. You're not held responsible for that. But if I sit in the thought and I go, actually, yeah, and I start going down the path with it, or the spiral, as the case may be. Now I'm responsible for that.
• 31:10
  Speaker A: Now I'm responsible for that, right?
• 31:12
  Speaker B: And when you. I wanted to go back to what you were talking about. Validation, external versus internal. I tell people all the time that we have a tank and we're always trying to fill it. And maybe I fill mine by running around other people's tanks and trying to sneak a couple droppers out of it or a couple cups or whatever. And maybe I flat out ask them, can I have some of your validation tank? And maybe I just abuse people so that I can steal from their tank or whatever the case may be. But what people don't understand is we have a faucet.
• 31:53
  Speaker A: Turn it on. Turn your faucet on. Turn it on.
• 31:57
  Speaker B: And then if you're, if your tank is already full, I don't need to take from you. I. And if you offer me some, that's great, I'll add them to the tank, but I don't need it.
• 32:10
  Speaker A: Yes, I love that analogy. I had never heard it put like that. And I think that the way this world is, specifically with the online communities that are supposed to be mostly supportive of parallel hardships and journeys, that is such a brilliant way to put it. We have. The faucet's right there. The faucet's right there. And I, I think that for as hokey as as it sounds, the faucet is, a lot has a lot more of a simple function and ability to be turned on than we think. The faucet. You don't have to, like, it doesn't have to turn into, like raging rapids, you know, every goddamn day where you're like, if it's not this, and I'm not like, just like overflowing every day with excess, it's right.
• 32:58
  Speaker B: No.
• 33:01
  Speaker A: Even lightly turning it on for yourself is going to pay dividends in spades.
• 33:05
  Speaker B: Steady drip still fills the space. Steady drip, man.
• 33:08
  Speaker A: Steady drip. Steady drip.
• 33:11
  Speaker B: And it, and it also, if you, if you start looking outward, what are the effects of turning on your own faucet? Well, I don't need to spend emotional resources running around looking for ways to fill it. I don't need to ask people and, and put pressure on relationships. And I, I call it being grabby. And we all know people like that in our lives who are coming up to us and trying to get their tank filled. And we recognize it, even if we can't put our finger on what it is. It feels gross because we call them emotional vampires for a reason they're trying to take. And it's so they can put something in their tank and feel okay and feel safe. But if you can get them to just turn their stinking faucet on, hey, you wouldn't need to spend all this time. Think about all the time you would reclaim. Think about all the emotional energy you would reclaim that you could spend toward choices and growth and different other things as opposed to trying to get me to make you feel good about yourself.
• 34:20
  Speaker A: And I think that you, you. You hit on something too. It's acting upon it without trying to talk yourself out of why you don't need it. I. I spent years trying to outrun walking, right? Because I. And I'm not kidding you. Like I living in New York City for 10 years, you walk by default. You literally have no option. So you just walk, right? You don't have a car. You walk everywhere. It wasn't until I left New York that I realized I wasn't walking everywhere, that I had to make a choice to walk places. And I didn't realize how much that gave my system when that was the default. And then moving to a place where that wasn't. I couldn't believe how hard it was to choose. But when you're surrounded in an environment where everyone is walking everywhere, you're. It's the mob mentality. You're like, we're all in this together. Like, you're pushing the stroller with your kid in the snowstorm. You're like, I don't have a car. Neither does she. We're just doing it. But it was giving me something for my body to stabilize, normalize, hit homeostasis in a way that I never was consciously aware of until I had to choose to do it. So for me, those small, that small choice of walking every day, I never make light of it. It is a choice. It's annoying af, but I do it. I have to. I have to.
• 35:44
  Speaker B: My. It's. It's funny that you bring up walking because I instantly feel the discomfort, which is funny. So I'm going to name it and be open about it. My property sits on the side of a mountain. And so the entire angle of my property is kind of like this. And I have no reason to walk the entire property, except that if I actually walk to the very top, there is an absolutely amazing view over the mountains. And it's been a hot minute since I walked up to the top, because why would I. I have to come up for. I have to come up with a reason. And it has to be greater than my desire for comfort. And if I say, well, I should walk up there for what? For what? So I can see the mountains. I've seen them, you know, I've been up there. And so our brain, our bodies come up with reasons why. And it's not just walking, right? It's being vulnerable. It's owning that you know what you're also a contributor to your crappy relationship. It's not all on your partner. It's hey, if I'm not doing well at my job, it's not always my boss's fault. You know, I contribute. And that goes back to, to Adam's article. No matter what you're talking about, you contribute and you have to be able to sit in the discomfort of that. And again, this kind of ties it all together, right? You have to choose the agency and say I have the privilege, if you will, of sitting in this discomfort and analyzing what am I doing that is creating some of these things in my life, not what happened to me, not is that my fault? We're not talking about that right now. This moment. What is going on in my mind and my body and how am I contributing to it? Which animal am I feeding? What's, what's happening?
• 37:53
  Speaker A: I love that as a way to tie things up here at the end because it is one of the through lines of my work is that for as hard as the reality might be, you still have a choice to rise in a way that makes the internal version of yourself that little. That for me it's. I always picture this little, my little girl. I have a picture of myself over there that I look at every day as like a six year old in front of my parents house. Do it for her. Do it to remind her the strength that she had that you get to have for her as a way to validate, accept and grow. I mean, I think that growth, as you say, the discomfort in growth is uncomfortable. And the more in which we can lean into that from an internal metrodome and pulse of our own, the less we will seek that internal external support. And when that does come, that's just gravy, that's just extra, right? That's just like a wow, like, thanks for seeing me. It doesn't rely. You don't rely on it to be the fuel to get you through. And it's the honor of a lifetime for me to connect my mission in ways to other authors and writers like yours. Our topics, our exact titles of our work are totally different. Yet there's such a absolute resounding core that resonates in both. And I believe that it really does begin and ending with sitting in the discomfort of reality and making choices based on that for oneself. Kit, thank you for what you do, how you work and how your work is resonating throughout my life and through the lives of others. I'm very, very appreciative of.
• 39:45
  Speaker B: Oh, thank you. I love your work as well.
• 39:48
  Speaker A: All right, well, everyone, we will be listening all of Kit's work on the Inchtones podcast summary. And until next time, here on Inchtones. Take care, everyone.