Latest / Pod Save America / “Dr. Fauci, Unmasked.”

Transcript

“Dr. Fauci, Unmasked.” · Pod Save America

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 0:20
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Vitor.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: On today's pod, the Biden administration faces a moment of
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: truth over the escalating violence between the Israelis and Palestinians.
• 0:30
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 0:30
  Speaker 2: Fauci is here to chat with Lovett about the CDC's
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: new mask guidelines. And we take a look at a
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: few stories we're watching closely this week, including the Philadelphia
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: district attorney's race, the Supreme Court's decision on a critical
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: abortion rights case, and the future of HR1. But first,
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: check out the Crooked Store for some great new additions.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: Like our Fauci-Ouchi Band-Aid sets. Love it. Did you offer Dr.
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: Fauci a Fauci-Ouchi Band-Aid set?
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: I didn't, and I'm glad I didn't, John. I don't
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: want to have to say that to him.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: We also, of course, you know, we have our Doug
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: on a mug, a presidential spouse's mug. We now also
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: have a new refill for Jill mug. Important thing about
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: all of this is you can feel good buying all
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: this merch, knowing that a portion of every order goes
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: to support VoteRiders.org. It's helping people across the country getting
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: registered to vote. They do fantastic work. Shop now at crooked.com
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: slash store. All right, let's get to the news. The
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: violence between the Israelis and the Palestinians is one of
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: the biggest stories in the world right now. It began
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: last month when Jewish settlers tried to expel six Palestinian
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: families from East Jerusalem, which led to protests, which ultimately
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: led Israeli police to conduct a raid on on the
• 1:43
  Speaker 2: Al-Aqsa Mosque that left hundreds wounded. Hamas militants in Gaza
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: responded by firing rockets into Jerusalem. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Netanyahu responded by ordering airstrikes against Gaza, where the death
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: toll has now climbed to at least 192 people, including
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: 58 children. In the occupied West Bank, Israeli forces have
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: killed at least 13 Palestinians. And in Israel, there have
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: been at least 10 deaths, including two children. One image
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: that captured the world's attention over the weekend was the
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: demolished building in Gaza where the Associated Press and Al
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: Jazeera worked, a building that was targeted by the Israeli
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: government that they claim was shared by Hamas. In addition
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: to the violence between Hamas and the Israeli government, there's
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: also been some of the worst violence and unrest between
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Jews and Arabs inside of Israel in over two decades. Tommy,
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: that was my attempt at a quick summary of how
• 2:32
  Speaker 2: we got here. What important context have I left out?
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: Those are definitely the key events.
• 2:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, a little broader context is last week, the
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: Israeli Supreme Court was supposed to rule on whether those
• 2:41
  Speaker 4: families would be evicted from their homes in Sheikh Jarrah.
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: So that helped kind of bring it to the fore
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: and make it a focal point. And land disputes in
• 2:48
  Speaker 4: East Jerusalem are incredibly sensitive for a lot of reasons,
• 2:51
  Speaker 4: especially because any serious plan for a two-state solution envisions
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: the Palestinian capital being in East Jerusalem. But a lot
• 3:00
  Speaker 4: of right-wing Israelis, including a lot of people in the government,
• 3:03
  Speaker 4: want Israel to control all of Jerusalem. So there's this
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: concerted effort by settler organizations to evict some of these families,
• 3:09
  Speaker 4: these Palestinian families from.
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: Their homes, move Jewish settlers in.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: It highlights all the unfair ways that the Israeli law
• 3:16
  Speaker 4: treats historical claims to that land. So that ruling got postponed,
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: but it also coincided with an annual Israeli holiday called
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: Jerusalem Day that marked Israel's capture of East Jerusalem. And
• 3:28
  Speaker 4: Associated with that holiday, there are often far right wing
• 3:32
  Speaker 4: Israeli settlers marching through the streets in that area. So
• 3:35
  Speaker 4: it's an incredibly provocative set of actions. And so it
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: became about something bigger than just a conversation about sex evictions.
• 3:42
  Speaker 4: It was about Israeli sovereignty. And this is all in
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: an area with these enormous religious implications and significance for
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: all sides. So it was this tinderbox of Palestinian protesters,
• 3:54
  Speaker 4: far-right Israeli counter-protesters, heavy-handed policing by Israeli police forces. And
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: things really exploded when Israeli police raided the Al-Aqsa Mosque,
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: which is one of the holiest sites in Islam. They
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: fired stunner grenades, rubber bullets when people were worshiping. So
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: that's when Hamas got involved, right? Like the Palestinians were
• 4:12
  Speaker 4: not asking for them to be involved. They're just selfish
• 4:15
  Speaker 4: assholes who want to make this about themselves. They're terrorists
• 4:18
  Speaker 4: and arsonists. And they start firing rockets indiscriminately into Israel. which,
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: to be clear, is a war crime. And the good
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: news is a lot of those rockets were intercepted by
• 4:28
  Speaker 4: this Iron Dome missile defense system, which prevented innocent people
• 4:31
  Speaker 4: from dying. But then the IDF responded with intensive shelling
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: of targets in Gaza, and that's still ongoing. And look, Gaza,
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: just so people know, is one of the most densely
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: populated areas in the world, and it's been controlled by
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Hamas since 2007. So it's sort of this open-air prison
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: where the majority of people can't get in, they can't
• 4:50
  Speaker 4: get out.
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: They're just stuck there.
• 4:52
  Speaker 4: And then the last piece of broader context is there's
• 4:55
  Speaker 4: just general political instability in the region because the Palestinian
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: Authority is feckless and corrupt, and they haven't even had
• 5:03
  Speaker 4: elections since 2006. And the Israeli government has been paralyzed
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: because they've had four elections in two years.
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: But because of how their system.
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: Works, no leader has been able to form a government.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: So they just go back to the polls and back
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: to the polls.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: And Netanyahu... is basically.
• 5:18
  Speaker 4: A caretaker prime minister right now, but he has been
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: distracted by a bunch of corruption cases against him. So it's, um,
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: you know, there was, it seems like some people were
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: asleep at the switch in the Israeli government when it
• 5:28
  Speaker 4: came to these tensions in East Jerusalem.
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: What's your reaction been to Netanyahu's response to Hamas over
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: the last several days? Obviously the shelling continues as we speak,
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: certainly seems disproportionate. Um, from everything that I've read and
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: seen over the last several days.
• 5:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, the mantra you always hear from
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: US officials and from the Biden administration right now is
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: that Israel has a right to defend itself.
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: And of course, that is true, right?
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: Like any leader would respond if rockets were fired into
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: civilian areas. But to your point, John, I do think
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: that glosses over a more important question of, is this
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: a proportionate response? Are these strikes going to save innocent
• 6:08
  Speaker 4: lives or take innocent lives? And right now, I'm very
• 6:11
  Speaker 4: worried about all these reports of civilian casualties and these
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: residential buildings that are getting targeted because, you know, the
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: way that Israeli defense officials often describe their military operations
• 6:23
  Speaker 4: in these cases, they call it mowing the grass, which
• 6:26
  Speaker 4: is a really disgusting, dehumanizing way of saying, like, once
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: the fighting starts, we're going to take out as many
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: Hamas fighters as we can. And we're going to take
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: out as many rockets and as many tunnels that Hamas
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: uses as we.
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: Can before it stops.
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: But it took three months to reach a ceasefire in
• 6:41
  Speaker 4: the 2014 Gaza war. Thousands of people died. And the
• 6:44
  Speaker 4: Israeli defense minister gave a speech last week where he said,
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: if Hamas doesn't stop, the 2021 response will be worse
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: than 2014. He said, if Israelis have to sleep in
• 6:54
  Speaker 4: shelters because Hamas is firing at them, then Gaza will burn.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: That's a quote from the defense minister.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: And to me, that's a recipe for escalation, for more
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: innocent deaths. And the average citizen in Gaza can't stop Hamas.
• 7:09
  Speaker 4: They can't make them stop firing rockets. They can't help
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: that Hamas is co-locating its operations in areas where they live.
• 7:15
  Speaker 4: They just have to live through these bombing raids. And
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: I think that's why calls for a ceasefire have to
• 7:20
  Speaker 4: happen now. And that doesn't absolve Hamas. But there's this
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: major power imbalance here. Israel's a superpower with this advanced military,
• 7:28
  Speaker 4: and it's funded by the US. And they control most
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: of the territory we're talking about. And I think that's
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: why there needs to be more of a push to
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: to call for a ceasefire immediately.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Love it. What's your reaction been watching this unfold? You know, the,
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: especially the Israelis targeting a building that housed media outlets
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: because they say that Hamas was co-locating there.
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: You know, it's obviously been really hard to watch this unfold. And,
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: and there was something that actually of all people, Barry
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Weiss wrote that really stuck with me, not because I
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: agreed with it. Obviously let me stay that at this,
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: at the jump, Hear the rest of what I'm going
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: to say before you tweet at me, please. Barry Weiss
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: was a former Times columnist. She's now chief cancel culture
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: correspondent for her own sub stack. But she wrote she
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: said this about the deaths of Palestinian civilians and children
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: in an attempt to try to bring nuance. to what
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: she viewed as an anti-Israel, anti-Semitic narrative that had taken hold.
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: And she said, this is an unspeakable tragedy. It is
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: also one of the unavoidable burdens of political power of
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Zionism's dream turned into the reality of self-determination. And I'll
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: just be honest with you, like it makes me so angry.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: Like it makes me really upset to see that because
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: like I am a, when I think of Israel, in
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: my mind, it is like, it is connected not just
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: to the Holocaust, but to the anti-Semitism Jews have faced forever,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: to the fact that after the creation of Israel, Jews
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: had to flee Arab countries or were expelled from Arab
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: countries into Israel. I think of the escape of Soviet Jews.
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: I think of the fact that pogroms took place in
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: Europe after World War II, in Poland, in Central Europe.
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: I think I'm not talking about this just intellectually. In
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: my bones, as a Jewish person, I am a Zionist.
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: I believe in it. It is my bias. It is
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: how I approach these questions. It is how I was raised.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: It is how I think about it. I believe in
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: the project of Israel. And what is so enraging about
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: this is that that is then twisted by people like Netanyahu,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: by the Israelis, by defenders of what Israel does as
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: to say, if you believe in Israel, this is what
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: you must support. And not only do I think that's
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: not true because it's morally wrong, like not only is
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: referring to this as some unavoidable burden of power, like
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: morally reprehensible, which is, I think, I'm taking this one sentence,
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: but I think it speaks to a larger way in
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: which the actions are defended. I think it is counterproductive
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: in a fundamental way that it does not bring us
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: closer to the point at which Israel is free and
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: safe because Palestinians are free and safe. It makes everything harder.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: It makes everything go on. It makes the animus worse.
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: It makes the hatreds worse. It makes Israel more isolated,
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: more alienated from its neighbors and from the international order.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: It makes the day in which Israel is at peace
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: and sustainable and safe and free further away. And that
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: was sort of my reaction on top of agreeing with
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: everything Tommy said, everything Tommy and Ben said on Pod
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: Save the World. It was that I don't believe what
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: Israel is doing is morally right. I think it's repellent,
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: but I also think it is not in the interest
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: of those who believe in Israel, in the project of Israel.
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: No, I just, I mean, sort of watching this unfold
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: and many people have pointed this out that this only
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: seems to generate a lot of headlines when rockets start
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: falling on Israel. But as Tommy pointed out, there's like
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: a whole bunch of context that doesn't get as much
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: headlines everywhere. before the rockets start falling on Israel. And
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: that's always the case every time there's, you know, the
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: conflict erupts between Israelis and Palestinians. And at the end
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: of the day, you just have to understand that, like,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: the Palestinians don't have a state, nor do they live
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: in a democracy, right? And they either need to have
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: a state of their own, or they need to be
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: treated as equal citizens in the state where they live.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: And the Israeli government under Netanyahu does not want either
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: of those things. And that and it's I think it's
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: important to just focus sort of like on the Palestinians
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: themselves because sometimes we just don't talk about this stuff
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: until Hamas starts firing off rockets. But Tommy, I do
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: want to get your reaction because I know you were,
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: I saw you tweeting about this over the weekend about
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: Israelis targeting that building that housed both the Associated Press
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: and Al Jazeera.
• 12:00
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: I mean, like, like I want to be, I think
• 12:03
  Speaker 4: that that was outrageous and to love it's one. I mean,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: I think it's incredibly stupid to to bomb a building
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: that you know houses media organizations.
• 12:12
  Speaker 3: The world is watching.
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: I assume that the Israeli government wants people to support
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: their efforts, to think they're just, to think they're proportionate
• 12:19
  Speaker 4: and wise. If there's some intelligence that shows that that
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: building contained Hamas's version of the fucking Pentagon, I will,
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: of course, look at that. I will take that on board.
• 12:28
  Speaker 4: But I doubt that is the case. You shouldn't blow
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: up a media building. And I also find it troubling
• 12:33
  Speaker 4: that a bunch of big residential... buildings have been destroyed.
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: Even if the Israelis are clearing civilians out of places
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: like that before they strike, where are these people supposed
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: to live afterwards? Gaza is being bombed into the Stone
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: Age for the second time in decades. And so, we
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: have to allow for complexity in all of this and
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: for there not to always be black and white. It
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: is true that Hamas operates in civilian areas to try
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: to use innocent people as human shields. I talked to
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: a reporter over the weekend who used to cover Gaza.
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: He often worked out of that building that AP building
• 13:06
  Speaker 4: several years ago. And he said that his understanding was
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: that some element of Hamas had worked out of it
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: at the time. I can't confirm that myself. That's what
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: I was told.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: I was in no way trying to suggest that that
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: makes it justified to bomb that building. I do not.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: I kind of think that the debate over whether there
• 13:26
  Speaker 4: was some Hamas office in this building or not misses
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: the point. Wars are often fought in urban areas like this.
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: Militaries decide all the time not to strike targets because
• 13:37
  Speaker 4: of collateral damage, not to strike targets because you would
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: have curtailed the international media's ability to report on a conflict.
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: And so in this case, the IDF had to know
• 13:47
  Speaker 4: that the response to blowing up a building used by
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: journalists would be enormous. They should not have done it.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: And their failure to lay out evidence proving why this
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: was some critical military target is allowing far more cynical
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: views about why one might do that, like thinking maybe
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: it's a good thing to curtail reporting on what's happening
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: in Gaza to fester and to be surfaced online. So
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: I think it was an enormous error. It was immoral
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: and it was strategically incredibly fucking stupid.
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: And I think it's also another example of sort of
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: like the power imbalance that is not focused on enough
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: between you know, the Israeli government and the Palestinians and
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: sort of the disproportionate use of force and how they respond.
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's, to Tommy's point, it's, I see this
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: idea of like, Israel has a right to defend itself,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: which it does, and that Hamas uses innocent people as
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: human shields, which it does as a defense. But dozens
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: of children are dead. So they're not like, Sometimes that
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: means you can't do it.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: That means you can't do it.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: It works.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: Using people as a human shield that you have to
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: protect those children. Your job is also to protect those children.
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: Killing civilians in Gaza does not save civilians in Israel, period.
• 15:08
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: So I want to talk about the Biden administration response here.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: But Tommy, you and Ben Rhodes have been talking about
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: how this time feels different in terms of who's speaking out,
• 15:18
  Speaker 2: you know, not just activists and progressives, but a lot
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: more Democrats, people who aren't usually even engaged on this issue.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: Can you talk a little bit about that? And what
• 15:26
  Speaker 2: do you think has sort of changed?
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, one thing that's changed to me,
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: you talked about this earlier, John, about how sometimes the,
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: you know, the press attention comes when the rockets start
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: getting fired. In this case, There was a proliferation of
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: videos and images out of Sheikh Jarrah, out of this
• 15:41
  Speaker 4: neighborhood where these Palestinian families were being evicted. And there
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: actually was a ton of coverage of it. It was
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: getting discussed. It was getting talked about. So I think
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: that was different and important. But now the bombing has started.
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: You're also seeing horrifying images on social media out of
• 15:57
  Speaker 4: Gaza as well. I assume people have seen there's a
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: video of a little girl, 10-year-old girl crying.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: Her neighborhood was destroyed. There was a video of a
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: man grieving the death.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Heartbreaking.
• 16:07
  Speaker 4: Four children, four children. So how do you not respond
• 16:09
  Speaker 4: on a human level when you see this? And I
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: also think that months of conversations about Black Lives Matter
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: and social justice have, I think, encouraged people to think
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: about these evictions and the treatment of Palestinians and wanting
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: to give them the human rights they deserve and the
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: dignity they deserve and view it in the same way.
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: I mean, we're talking about this in the same sort
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: of social justice framework. I also think there's the fact
• 16:36
  Speaker 4: that Bibi Netanyahu is a terrible leader.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: He's a bad guy. He's super right wing. He's corrupt.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: He's a racist.
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: He's made tensions between Israelis and Palestinians worse. Did everything
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: in his power to blow up the Iran nuclear deal.
• 16:50
  Speaker 4: And so that's an important distinction, right? Because I'm not
• 16:53
  Speaker 4: criticizing the state of Israel. I'm not criticizing the Israeli
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: people I'm criticizing a shitty leader in the same way
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: I criticized a shitty leader in the US named Donald Trump.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: That's a distinction that sometimes gets lost in this. And
• 17:06
  Speaker 4: then you're also seeing Democratic leaders that are just more
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: willing to speak out about what's happening. Bernie Sanders wrote
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: an op-ed in the New York Times. You have AOC,
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: Rashida Tlaib, others delivering statements and really amazing speeches. But
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: even associated with that, 28 senators led by John Ossoff
• 17:26
  Speaker 4: are calling for a ceasefire. You're seeing progressive Jewish Democrats
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: in the House calling for peace. So to me, this
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: feels very different than the traditional sort of unquestioning calls
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: for support for Israel's right.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: To defend itself.
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: People are willing to be a little more specific about
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: what's happening and judge the efficacy of these various military
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: strikes and other actions.
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I also want to just focus in on that
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: point that you made about sort of the parallels between
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: Bibi and Trump. Bernie's op-ed, which is excellent. Everyone should
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: go read it. He mentions that Bibi has cultivated, quote,
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: an authoritarian type of racist nationalism in Israel and says
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: that we've seen a similar rise of authoritarian nationalist movements
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: around the world. I do think it's also easier for
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: people to start seeing the connection more clearly between authoritarian
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: types of racist nationalist governments all around the world, especially
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: people who've experienced different levels of authoritarianism, often racist nationalism,
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: both here in the U.S. under Trump and in other countries.
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: And so I think as these movements give rise, it's
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: for a lot of people who aren't as engaged in
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: this issue, it's no longer just a question of like
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Israel and Palestine, but the more the focus is on
• 18:38
  Speaker 2: Netanyahu and his sort of corrupt racist government, I think
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: the more people can start seeing the parallels between things
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: that are going on all over the world.
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: And the fact that he is barely holding onto power.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: And exploiting this crisis.
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: Corrupt as hell.
• 18:53
  Speaker 4: I think sometimes people hear all this conversation about settlements,
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: and they wonder, why are people talking about settlements all
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: the time? Why is it such a big deal to
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: build more apartments in the West Bank or in East Jerusalem?
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: And the reason is, at some point, there will be
• 19:08
  Speaker 4: so many Israeli settlements that it will be impossible to
• 19:11
  Speaker 4: create a Palestinian state that is contiguous, that is one thing.
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: It'll just be sliced and diced into little pieces. And
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: that is by design.
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: There are right-wing.
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: Individuals in the Israeli government who want to move as
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: many settlers as they can into those territories so that
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: it becomes de facto part of Israel. The mayor of
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: East Jerusalem said as much on the record when talking
• 19:36
  Speaker 4: about Sheikh Jarrah. That same guy, by the way, also
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: pointed at a Palestinian protester and said, next time we'll
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: shoot you in the head. So there's some real extremists
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: driving the debate on both sides.
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: Well, and the other thing, you know, you hear people
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: talking about a one-state solution, but like Palestinians who live
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: within Israel right now, Arabs in Israel are treated as
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: second-class citizens, not just treated, but like Netanyahu has passed
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: law after law making them second-class citizens during the time
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: he's been in power.
• 20:02
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And it's just that the settlements make a two-state solution
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: more and more difficult. You now see Peter Beinart in
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: the New York Times talking about right of return that
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: I remember when we were in the White House, the
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Obama administration would face criticism for challenging Israel on settlements,
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: for challenging Israel on some of its policies. And the
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: view was, if you don't push for a two-state solution
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: and try to stop some of the ways Israel is,
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: for its part, making that solution more difficult, you are
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: inevitably marching towards a one-state solution which means a very
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: different version. It means no longer being a Jewish state
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: because of the inevitability of the demographics in Israel and Palestine.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: And we see that playing out right now.
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: And I just want to say, it is also true
• 20:45
  Speaker 4: that over the last several decades, the Palestinian Authority has
• 20:49
  Speaker 4: walked away from or refused to accept deals that were
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: negotiated by the US or put forward by Israel that
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: would have enormously benefited them today had they taken them.
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: This is by no means absolving the Palestinian Authority, of
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: their responsibility for the failure to achieve a two-state solution.
• 21:05
  Speaker 4: The challenge now, though, like you see the Biden administration
• 21:08
  Speaker 4: putting out a statement that they sent a letter to
• 21:10
  Speaker 4: Mahmoud Abbas, the head of the Palestinian Authority.
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: Well, Abbas has no power. No one listens to him.
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: He has no moral authority.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: They delay these elections in part because I'm sure he
• 21:19
  Speaker 4: thought Hamas would kick his ass. So like, you know,
• 21:22
  Speaker 4: that's when we talk about the power imbalance. Anyway, sorry
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: to go all worldo on you.
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: One place where it unfortunately doesn't seem like Israeli-Palestinian politics
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: have changed much is the White House, which released a
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: statement on Saturday saying that Biden talked to Netanyahu and, quote,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: reaffirmed his strong support for Israel's right to defend itself
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: from Hamas.
• 21:46
  Speaker 3: The U.S.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Is currently blocking a joint statement from the U.N. Security
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: Council calling for an immediate ceasefire. Today, Jen Psaki wouldn't
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: say whether Israel's response is proportional and instead kept pointing
• 21:55
  Speaker 2: out that there is, quote, quiet, intensive diplomacy in going
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: on behind the scenes. Biden is not just in a
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: different place than progressives like AOC, who've been critical of
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: his response. As Tommy mentioned, you get 28 Senate Democrats
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: released a letter on Sunday night calling for an immediate ceasefire.
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: The Biden administration publicly won't even go there. You know,
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: we're recording this right before Biden speaks to Netanyahu and
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: then said he told reporters that he would have more
• 22:21
  Speaker 2: to say after he has that discussion. Tommy, why do
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: you think the Biden administration is taking this position? Do
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: you think there are certain political or national security dynamics
• 22:31
  Speaker 2: shaping their response?
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: What are they? I'm struggling to understand.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: I mean, look, I'm getting pretty frustrated with the Biden response.
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: I know a lot of the people on his team
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: who are working on this. I think they're good people.
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: I think their hearts are in the right place. But
• 22:44
  Speaker 4: I think The world is looking at this as a
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: test of Joe Biden's commitment to human rights. And what
• 22:51
  Speaker 4: it's bringing back for me is there was this mantra
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: that I heard all the time from very smart policy
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: people when I worked in the government that said, when
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: it comes to Israel, there should be no public daylight
• 23:02
  Speaker 4: between the US and Israel on disagreements. We shouldn't disagree publicly.
• 23:06
  Speaker 4: And I just don't agree with that. I think the
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: fact that Israel is our closest ally in the region
• 23:12
  Speaker 4: means that we should be able to have principled disagreements.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Somebody over the weekend flagged a press briefing by Ari Fleischer,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: not a good guy, a Bush spokesman. This was from 2002.
• 23:23
  Speaker 4: He was asked about Israel bombing Gaza in an incident
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: that killed civilians. Ari said that Bush viewed that bombing
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: as a heavy-handed action that is not consistent with dedication
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: to peace in the Middle East. Biden should be able
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: to say that too. Obama should have been able to
• 23:39
  Speaker 4: say that, right? And again, this is not about criticizing Israel.
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: This is about criticizing bad decisions made by Netanyahu. And so,
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: you know, right now the Biden team, they're sort of
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: hinting that they're calling for a ceasefire, but they're saying
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: they're doing it quietly. And they also don't want to
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: talk about whether they think the strikes are proportional or not,
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: which that admittedly is a bigger deal. because proportionality gets
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: you to a question about whether something is a war crime.
• 24:04
  Speaker 4: But the problem is Netanyahu is pointing to Biden's public
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: statements about Israel's right to defend itself. And he is
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: asserting that the US fully supports what he's doing. And
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: on top of that, the US gives Israel $ 3. 8 billion
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: with a B per year in military financing. On top
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: of that, the US funded the Iron Dome missile defense system.
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: On top of that, the US often blocks criticism of
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: Israel at the UN, including over the weekend where there
• 24:31
  Speaker 4: was a UN statement condemning the Israeli military response and
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: calling for a ceasefire. So the world thinks we are complicit.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: And a lot of Muslims are going to see the
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: images of Israeli police raiding the Al-Aqsa.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Mosque and be outraged by it.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: And I worry about all the security challenge that could
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: come on top of all the moral ones we talked about.
• 24:52
  Speaker 3: So I'm pretty worried here.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: I just can't understand the national security or geopolitical risks
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: in publicly calling for a ceasefire. I don't understand. But
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things where there's so much, and
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: Rhodes talked about this on Positive the World last week,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: about how the response is different this time, but the
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: talking points haven't changed for a lot of Democrats in power,
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: or specifically in the Biden administration. And if you don't
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: pay a lot of attention to foreign policy, there's all
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: this conventional language that doesn't really, it doesn't make a
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: lot of sense to people outside government. And so when
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: the Biden administration sounds like they're, you know, behind the
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: scenes doing diplomacy where they're calling for a ceasefire, but
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: they won't call for a ceasefire publicly, that makes no
• 25:37
  Speaker 2: sense to anyone. You know, it's like, it doesn't make
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: sense to me. And I pay somewhat attention to this.
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: Imagine just like regular people, like why the hell isn't
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: Joe Biden want a ceasefire? Why isn't he calling on
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: both sides to stop? There's people dying every day. Like,
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: why wouldn't he do that? What's the problem?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's the... it does sort of strike me that it's,
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: there's a kind of like, I think it is, it
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: has been true of Joe Biden as a candidate. It
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: has been true in the early days of, of, of
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden as president, that there is a real reluctance
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: to be pulled into news cycles that are the, not
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: the news cycles they want, that this is not the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: topic they want to be talking about. And this is
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: not the focus of their foreign policy that they don't
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: want to be mired in this. I'm not defending that morally.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: I'm just, I'm talking about the politics of it. And so,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: you can see in their rhetoric this hope of trying
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to push for a ceasefire without changing the language that
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: they're using to kind of bring less attention to their
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: place inside of this debate, that the role of the
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: administration itself in the conflict. And it just seems like
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: what we are seeing and what I think they will
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: see and react to is that, to the point that
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: John just made, that that the situation has changed, that
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: the language has to change, and that that is not
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: really tenable, that actually you do have to say more now,
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: even if you're reluctant to, because you don't want to
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: be central to the international debate about the conflict. Does
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: that make sense?
• 27:00
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: I think the policy framework has changed.
• 27:02
  Speaker 4: I also, I don't have any evidence to prove this
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: right now, but I think the political context has changed
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: and that young people and progressives are looking at what's
• 27:10
  Speaker 4: happening and they're thinking that is morally wrong.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: And I want someone to talk about it.
• 27:14
  Speaker 4: So My experience, just like stepping back in foreign policy
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: and foreign policy and press was often you would have
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: very big brains who sit in very important meetings and
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: they talk about, you know, soft versus hard power and
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: all these big esoteric things. And when it comes time
• 27:29
  Speaker 4: to write the press guidance, the mantra is basically give
• 27:32
  Speaker 4: them as little as possible, say as little as possible.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: Let's deal with this behind the scenes. And I just.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: That's not how the world works.
• 27:39
  Speaker 4: The rubber meets the road, as you speechwriters know, on
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: policy when you say something publicly. That's how the world
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: is going to hear about Joe Biden's views on this
• 27:48
  Speaker 4: issue and every other issue. So, you know, I think
• 27:51
  Speaker 4: it's a real mistake not to give Jen Psaki or
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: the State Department spokespeople or others who are speaking for
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: Joe Biden on these issues the room to state the obvious,
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: which is that we're incredibly worried about civilian casualties, that
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: there should be a ceasefire, et cetera, et cetera.
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: You mentioned how this is generational, too. I think one
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: of the generational aspects to this is people paying attention
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: to this for the first time and just hearing your
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: mantra from when you were in government about how there
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: should be no daylight between the United States and Israel
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: and everything.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: Like, why?
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Like, you know, daylight, even our best.
• 28:27
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: Exactly. That's what I was going to say. Like all
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: of our allies around the world, when our allies are
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: acting like assholes, we should be able to tell them.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: That's like what a that's like what a that's what
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: a good ally is.
• 28:36
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: Like the idea that our alliances are beyond criticism when
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: when someone a nation or government in a nation that
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: we're allied with does something that we don't like, that
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: we can't criticize that is I think that strikes most
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: people in this country as bizarre.
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: But I will say it, it, it comes from a
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: different time, a time in which the United States was
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: really keeping Israel in existence by being its defender and
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: being installed. I'm not saying, and it not, not that
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: what you're saying is wrong. It's that it just speaks
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: to how much has shifted, how the power and balance has,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: has changed, you know, that, that there was a, that
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: like there's been more recognition from Israel's, uh, Arab neighbors
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: of its right to exist that has not changed the fundamental, um,
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: dynamic inside of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. But it does, I
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: think the reason that you can be more critical, and
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: actually the reason even the Bush administration was more critical
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: is because they saw it as a necessary way to
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: build distance for the their ability to be an interlocutor,
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: for their ability to be a broker.
• 29:46
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 29:46
  Speaker 4: Look, also though, you know, Bibi Netanyahu, he seems pretty
• 29:50
  Speaker 4: cool with expressing his views on policy, including when they
• 29:53
  Speaker 4: disagree on areas like Iran. So I'm not sure why
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: we should take a different tactic. Also, you mentioned Trump
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: and Jared Kushner's Abraham Accords, where basically the US gave
• 30:08
  Speaker 4: tons of weapons, basically, to autocratic regimes that agreed to
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: announce normalization treaties with Israel, even though a lot of
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: the places we were talking about, like the UAE, basically
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: had relations with Israel anyway. I believe that those Abraham
• 30:21
  Speaker 4: Accords actually exacerbated the underlying tensions we saw in Sheikh Jarrah,
• 30:26
  Speaker 4: because for a long time, the Palestinians felt like, well,
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: our Arab neighbors had our back. And all of a sudden,
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: these accords, which look, I agree. I want Israel to
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: normalize relations with all its neighbors. I want there to
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: be peace between Israel and Saudi Arabia, et cetera, et cetera.
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: But I think it exacerbated the tensions with the underlying
• 30:46
  Speaker 4: Palestinian issue because the Palestinians were like, well, we have
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: nowhere to turn now. We're desperate, more desperate than before.
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Is there anything that the Biden administration could be doing
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: or should be doing right now to in addition to
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: calling for a ceasefire, Tommy?
• 31:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, look, I think there's two distinct issues
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: that are inextricably linked. One is just stopping this immediate war, right?
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: And the second is the longer term underlying problem. So
• 31:10
  Speaker 4: I think they need to call for immediate ceasefire. They
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: need to do so publicly. That is the key right now.
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: But long term, they have to try to find a
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: way to get... I don't want Joe Biden to do
• 31:20
  Speaker 4: what we did, which is have a gigantic summit at
• 31:22
  Speaker 4: the White House and bring in five leaders and host
• 31:26
  Speaker 4: a bunch of negotiations. I don't know that That was
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: a great use of time. But I do think they
• 31:30
  Speaker 4: need to get the two parties back into some sort
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: of negotiation or peace process where there's at least conversations
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: happening about these underlying issues, where they're trying to empower
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: the Palestinian Authority so people aren't turning to Hamas. That
• 31:45
  Speaker 4: approach and that process should include offering incentives for doing
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: the right thing, but also a pressure campaign that says,
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: you know, the U.S., we will condition or cut off
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: military aid if it's used to annex the West Bank,
• 31:59
  Speaker 4: or if we continue to have human rights concerns about
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: the targeting of civilians. We cannot have this approach where
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: Netanyahu is perceived to have a blank check. And also just,
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: you know, for people, we constantly hear from people, from
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: listeners to this show, who say, look, I live in
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: a blue state.
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: I'm frustrated. I feel like I have no power or
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: agency in Washington.
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: Now is your time. Call your representative. Call Democrats. who
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: represent you. Ask them to make a public statement calling
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: for a ceasefire. Ask them to pressure President Biden to
• 32:29
  Speaker 4: do so. It will really matter if reps hear about
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: this stuff on the phones.
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: Yeah, very much agree. It's a good thing for everyone
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: to do. All right. When we come back, Dr. Anthony
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Fauci talks to Lovett about the CDC's new mask guidelines.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: Last week, CDC Director Dr. Rochelle Walensky announced that fully
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: vaccinated people can safely return to activities indoors or outdoors
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: without masks or distancing. President Biden said the announcement of
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: the news marked a great day, but many have questions
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: about this change, what led to it, what it means
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: for returning to normal life. Here to help is Chief
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: Medical Advisor to President Biden and friend of the pod, Dr.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Anthony Fauci.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: Fauci, welcome back.
• 33:15
  Speaker 5: Thank you.
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: Good to be with you again.
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: So first of all, can you explain what we've learned
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: about the vaccines that led to this decision?
• 33:22
  Speaker 5: Yeah, there was an accumulation of data, scientific evidence that
• 33:28
  Speaker 5: was really accruing over the previous few weeks that led
• 33:31
  Speaker 5: to the decision on the part of the CDC to
• 33:34
  Speaker 5: make this recommendation. First of all, the real world effectiveness
• 33:39
  Speaker 5: of the vaccines became readily apparent as more and more
• 33:44
  Speaker 5: publications came in showing that The effectiveness of the vaccine
• 33:49
  Speaker 5: was actually even better than was shown in the clinical trials,
• 33:53
  Speaker 5: namely the trials that led to the emergency use authorization.
• 33:57
  Speaker 5: Highly effective, number one. Number two, it worked quite well
• 34:02
  Speaker 5: against variants. And remember, one of the reasons why we
• 34:05
  Speaker 5: told people who are vaccinated that they should wear masks
• 34:09
  Speaker 5: indoor was the possibility that a variant might infect them.
• 34:14
  Speaker 5: They may then pass it on to someone else. That's
• 34:17
  Speaker 5: the second reason. The third reason is that studies are
• 34:21
  Speaker 5: now coming in to show that not only does the
• 34:25
  Speaker 5: vaccine protect against symptomatic infection, it is highly protective against
• 34:31
  Speaker 5: asymptomatic infection, which means if you get infected, it's very unlikely,
• 34:36
  Speaker 5: number one. And number two, it is extremely unlikely that
• 34:40
  Speaker 5: you'll pass it on to someone else because the level
• 34:44
  Speaker 5: of virus in your nasal pharynx if you have a
• 34:47
  Speaker 5: breakthrough infection despite vaccination, that the virus will be at
• 34:52
  Speaker 5: a very low level. So highly effective, good against the variants,
• 34:55
  Speaker 5: and you don't transmit it when you do get infected.
• 34:58
  Speaker 5: Those three things together prompted the CDC to make that announcement.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Have you seen any bad breakthrough cases? How common is that?
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: It seems like breakthrough cases in some cases, like with
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: the Yankees, means A small amount of virus, probably not transmissible.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: It's why you're changing the guidance around even testing people
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: who have been vaccinated. But are you seeing any serious
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: cases of people who have been vaccinated?
• 35:24
  Speaker 5: You know, to my knowledge, no, but you have to
• 35:26
  Speaker 5: be careful because when you have millions and millions and
• 35:29
  Speaker 5: millions of people vaccinated, you're always going to get exceptions.
• 35:32
  Speaker 5: But if you look at the overwhelming trend and majority
• 35:37
  Speaker 5: is that when there are breakthrough infections happening, they generally
• 35:41
  Speaker 5: are either without symptoms or with minimal symptoms. And the
• 35:44
  Speaker 5: more we learn, you're going to find for absolutely certain, John,
• 35:48
  Speaker 5: you're going to find that sooner or later, somebody is
• 35:50
  Speaker 5: going to get a breakthrough infection, get seriously ill and
• 35:53
  Speaker 5: probably die. And that probably has already happened. But remember,
• 35:57
  Speaker 5: when the denominator is tens of millions of people, you're
• 36:00
  Speaker 5: going to see virtually one or more of anything.
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: So there was a sign on just this morning on
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: the coffee shop by my house that said, Everyone needs
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: a mask, even if you're vaccinated. And then I see
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: some pundits saying things basically like, if you don't take
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: off your mask right now and you're vaccinated, you're as
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: bad as an anti-vaxxer. You might as well be Marjorie
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: Taylor Greene.
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: How do you.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: So.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Heaven forbid. You have been at this place where politics
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: meets science, where rigorous study meets like human messy behavior.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: How do you think about that? How do you think
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: about translating... what we've learned and updated in real time
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: to information people can actually use in their daily lives
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: as we return to normal.
• 36:45
  Speaker 5: Well, what you have to do is you always have
• 36:47
  Speaker 5: to make sure that the science, the evidence, and the
• 36:51
  Speaker 5: data guide whatever you do. But you also got to
• 36:54
  Speaker 5: be very careful with the messaging. You've got to be
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: crystal clear in your messaging. You've got to know what
• 37:00
  Speaker 5: your audience is and what your message is. And when
• 37:03
  Speaker 5: you put those two things together, you can avoid confusion.
• 37:07
  Speaker 5: Like getting the point that you mentioned, the very fact
• 37:11
  Speaker 5: that the CDC says that we want people who are
• 37:14
  Speaker 5: vaccinated to know that they are really safe, even when
• 37:18
  Speaker 5: they go indoors without a mask. That does not mean
• 37:23
  Speaker 5: that people who feel they want to continue to wear
• 37:25
  Speaker 5: a mask should not wear a mask. There's not a
• 37:29
  Speaker 5: mandate to take your mask off. I think that's what
• 37:33
  Speaker 5: people are misinterpreting. It's essentially a scientific statement saying that
• 37:39
  Speaker 5: if you are fully vaccinated, your risk is really very low,
• 37:44
  Speaker 5: not only outdoors, but also indoors. It's saying no more
• 37:49
  Speaker 5: than that. For the people who are not vaccinated, all
• 37:53
  Speaker 5: the recommendations remain the same. So that's the thing that
• 37:57
  Speaker 5: I think get conflated and people get confused that now
• 38:01
  Speaker 5: this is a mandate, take your mask off. No, and
• 38:04
  Speaker 5: in fact- There may be some organizations or stores or
• 38:09
  Speaker 5: businesses that say, you know, I get it that people
• 38:13
  Speaker 5: who are vaccinated are protected both outdoors and indoors. But
• 38:18
  Speaker 5: coming into my shop or coming into my establishment, that
• 38:22
  Speaker 5: they're going to be people who are not vaccinated and
• 38:24
  Speaker 5: some people that are infected. So as far as I'm concerned,
• 38:28
  Speaker 5: if you want to come into my shop or my establishment,
• 38:31
  Speaker 5: you have to wear a mask. That's perfectly fine. And
• 38:35
  Speaker 5: I believe that people who are vaccinated should respect those
• 38:40
  Speaker 5: mandates of independent organizations who feel, I'm glad you're vaccinated.
• 38:45
  Speaker 5: Thank you very much. But if you want to come
• 38:48
  Speaker 5: into my place, you got to wear a mask.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: You know why?
• 38:51
  Speaker 5: Because I can verify that you're vaccinated. I don't know.
• 38:55
  Speaker 5: We don't have a vaccine passport. That's the important thing.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Do you worry at all, though, that the new guidance
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: kind of leaves people to have to make that kind
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: of choice, basically saying, look, I trust the science, but
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: I don't trust people. I don't trust people to trust
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: the science. And now I'm on my own as a
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: store owner to protect my staff, or I'm a person
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: who works at this place, and I'm going to keep
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: my mask on because I just don't trust the people
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: coming in and out of my store.
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: Well, that's fine.
• 39:21
  Speaker 5: I actually have a great deal of empathy and sympathy
• 39:24
  Speaker 5: for those people. And I would favor them being able
• 39:26
  Speaker 5: to make their own choice depending upon how they feel
• 39:30
  Speaker 5: about things. So if a shop owner or an establishment
• 39:33
  Speaker 5: owner feels that they want to be doubly sure that
• 39:37
  Speaker 5: they're not having people coming into their shop infected and
• 39:39
  Speaker 5: infecting other people, that they say, fine, anywhere else you
• 39:43
  Speaker 5: want to go, you can walk in without a mask.
• 39:45
  Speaker 5: But if you come into my place, you have to
• 39:47
  Speaker 5: wear a mask. Remember, The recommendations were made to assure
• 39:52
  Speaker 5: people who are vaccinated that they are really safe now
• 39:57
  Speaker 5: because the vaccines are highly, highly protective. So now if
• 40:02
  Speaker 5: you feel comfortable in taking a mask off when you're indoors,
• 40:06
  Speaker 5: that's fine. You should feel confident that you're going to
• 40:09
  Speaker 5: be OK. That's all those recommendations are saying.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: Part of the reason there was this reaction to this
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: news around maybe unvaccinated people not wearing masks is it's
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: similar to some of the.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: It's fear around misinformation. It's a fear about people not
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: following the science. You've come face to face with it,
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: even in Senate hearings. You've had these heated exchanges with
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: people like Dr. Rand Paul, in which you've kind of
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: been confronted with distortions, confronted with misinformation. You had this
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: look on your face the last time you went up
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: against him. You look like... his neighbor during the leak
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: dispute right before it turned pretty ugly. Are you surprised
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: that even, we're not talking about Facebook memes, we're talking
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: about United States senators spreading misinformation. Has that surprised you
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: over the last 14 months?
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: It has.
• 41:01
  Speaker 5: It's unfortunate. It has surprised me. I wish that that
• 41:04
  Speaker 5: were not the case, but that's the world we're living in.
• 41:08
  Speaker 5: You have to accept it and be able to adapt
• 41:10
  Speaker 5: to it, but that is the world we're living.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: In, unfortunately. What have you learned as a communicator, as
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: one of the most prominent scientists, doctors in the public
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: mind about how to combat right-wing information, how to face
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: it when it's led to reluctance that may impact our
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: ability to get the country vaccinated?
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 41:31
  Speaker 5: You know, it is not an easy thing to do,
• 41:34
  Speaker 5: but you've got to, you know, very, very carefully and
• 41:38
  Speaker 5: assiduously stick with the facts, stick with the data. Don't
• 41:42
  Speaker 5: be confrontational. I mean, don't just get kicked around by
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: anybody for sure, but don't look for a fight. I mean,
• 41:50
  Speaker 5: that's the point. You don't want to do that. You
• 41:52
  Speaker 5: want to just stick with the science. If somebody says
• 41:55
  Speaker 5: something that's incorrect, just respectfully, the way I try to do,
• 42:00
  Speaker 5: point out to them that that's incorrect information.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: How has your use of the mask changed over the
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: last even week? Has your behavior changed? Have you followed
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: the guidance in new ways?
• 42:15
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 42:15
  Speaker 5: I mean, I have. I've always felt comfortable. But I
• 42:19
  Speaker 5: think symbolically now when I'm indoors, I don't always have
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: my mask on because I'm in a situation like now.
• 42:26
  Speaker 5: I'm around vaccinated people and I'm in my establishment. So
• 42:31
  Speaker 5: I don't walk around with the mask on all the time.
• 42:34
  Speaker 5: But when I'm in a situation where people would be
• 42:37
  Speaker 5: uncomfortable with people without masks, I wear a mask.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: And did you hurt your arm? when you voted for
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: Joe Biden, because you voted so hard for him that
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: you may have like punched through the table. You don't
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: have to- I'm not going to respond to that for sure,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: but- But your arm's okay.
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, my arm's fine.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: Dr. Anthony Fauci, thank you so much for your time.
• 43:01
  Speaker 5: My pleasure.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: Good to be with you, John.
• 43:03
  Speaker 3: Take care.
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: All right, love it. Well, I'll take that as a
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: yes on voting for Joe Biden. What about you?
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: I don't think it was. I think he.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: You've.
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: Been dying to ask that question forever.
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: At least his arm's okay. At least his arm's okay.
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: And I'm going to start a podcast where I just
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: say things at Anthony Fauci and he laughs and doesn't
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: respond because to respond would be a political nightmare.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Love it. I haven't heard it yet, but do you
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: think that you guys are going to be best friends now? Uh.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: You know, I think he would, I think like a
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: lot of really serious professional people, they really would best
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: to keep me in small doses. I don't think, but no,
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: it was good to talk to him. And I think
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: I still feel as though like he's basically saying that
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: he understands why, you know, a restaurant or a store
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: might say, let's keep the mask on because we don't
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: know who's vaccinated and who's not. But it does still
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: speak to the kind of challenge of like telling people
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: the truth about the science when that meets like messy
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: human behavior, because that does mean like, you know, Dr.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: Fauci understands, we all understand that it'll be people who
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: are unvaccinated who will pretend that they are simply not
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: address it and just stop wearing their masks. I think
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: the good thing is what he's basically saying is if
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: you are vaccinated, you don't need to worry about that.
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I thought it was really helpful when he said, you know,
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: this is not a mandate to take your mask off.
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: And I've also been thinking about this since the since
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: the guidance like A lot of this has to do
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: with the specific mission of the CDC and what the
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: CDC's role is, right? The CDC's role is not to
• 44:45
  Speaker 2: issue edicts about how to behave. They're called guidelines for
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: a reason and guidance for a reason. The CDC is
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: trying to base its guidance off the best science. And
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: what they're saying, what Fauci was just saying is, if
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: you are vaccinated, you are protected. You are protected against
• 45:02
  Speaker 2: the variants. You're protected from getting you know, sick and
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: you're not going to transmit the virus to other people.
• 45:08
  Speaker 2: So it's basically a scientific opinion that if you are vaccinated,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: you're good. You can do whatever. Now, like if you
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: are unvaccinated or you haven't been vaccinated yet or you're
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: immunocompromised or you're a child under 12, right, who isn't
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: getting vaccinated, then yeah, you not only still need to
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: wear masks, but you need to be cautious of sort
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: of crowded areas and going in without a mask and
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: all that remains. But if you're vaccinated, the science says
• 45:33
  Speaker 2: you're good. And your chance of getting sick and hospitalized
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: is incredibly low. That's all people need to know. And
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: then they can make their own decisions.
• 45:41
  Speaker 5: Yeah.
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I, I do think though, it's like, uh, one
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: of the lessons I think we will be learning as
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: we look back on this period is like what happens
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: when scientific based guidance meets human behavior and And like,
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: I think all of that can be true while it
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: still puts local officials, business owners, it puts ordinary people
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: at times in a difficult situation because it's like, well,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: I trust Dr. Fauci, but I don't know that I
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: trust my these strangers and I don't know that I trust.
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: other people to follow the guidance. And I feel like,
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: and so I don't have a good, there's no good
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: answer to it, but it's a, it's a problem.
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: No, but I think, I think the answer is if
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: you're vaccinated, you don't have to worry about trusting all
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: those other people. Now, if you have other, if you're
• 46:23
  Speaker 2: one of those groups of people I talked about, you know,
• 46:25
  Speaker 2: but my mother, of course, like her first call was like, well,
• 46:28
  Speaker 2: you know, you took, if you take Charlie into a
• 46:31
  Speaker 2: grocery store now and everyone's masked, that's one thing. What
• 46:33
  Speaker 2: if you take them into a grocery store and now
• 46:35
  Speaker 2: no one's masked? Like that's something you have to worry
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: about until there's vaccines for kids. It's like, No, I
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: get that. Now, the chances of a child his age
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: getting COVID is incredibly low also, but that is something
• 46:45
  Speaker 2: you have to be concerned about. But if I'm vaccinated,
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: you don't have to worry about that.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: I guess my takeaway from all of this is just
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: frustration at how little grace and empathy we give anyone
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: involved in these issues.
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: My mom is older. My mom's older. She's in more
• 47:03
  Speaker 3: of a risk profile, so she's going to keep wearing
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: her mask. Fine.
• 47:05
  Speaker 4: Also, If you read the newspaper this weekend, you might
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: have learned that some of the New York Yankees caught
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: COVID after being vaccinated.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I love what he's talking about that.
• 47:14
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 47:15
  Speaker 3: If you get into the details why, it's actually okay.
• 47:17
  Speaker 3: They're asymptomatic.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: Because the Yankees suck.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, love it. Yes.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: Love it.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: There you go. Thank you.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: You're such a Boston bro now that you've been doing this.
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: I'm a Mets.
• 47:28
  Speaker 3: Excuse me.
• 47:29
  Speaker 4: Well, I get why people might be scared, right? But
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: we also give public health officials no space to- be
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: wrong or to evolve. Like it was a new coronavirus.
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: Of course, guidelines are going to change over that. Like
• 47:42
  Speaker 4: I experienced this in a microcosm with Benghazi, right? Like
• 47:45
  Speaker 4: the intelligence picture changed over time. And when we try
• 47:48
  Speaker 4: to update it, you're accused of lying or hiding the
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: truth or some nefarious reasons. It's like, actually, sometimes you're
• 47:55
  Speaker 4: doing the best you can with the information you have
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: available to you at that moment.
• 47:59
  Speaker 3: And it turns out to be wrong.
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: And it changes a lot. Changes like day by day.
• 48:05
  Speaker 1: And there's a giant apparatus well-funded with like a big
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: megaphone telling everyone that you're lying and full of shit.
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, six months ago, the president was injecting bleach.
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 48:17
  Speaker 1: You know, like this has been one of the great,
• 48:19
  Speaker 1: like every, of course there should be grace. Like there's
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: a once in a century pandemic. The first time doctors
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: and experts have had to communicate with the American people
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: through not just television, not just radio, but social media
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: and Uh, it has, you know, of course there will
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: be lessons and of course it's hard.
• 48:38
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: And just don't judge people who are still wearing masks.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: Don't judge people who aren't.
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Before we go, we just want to run through a
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: few big stories to keep an eye on this week. Uh,
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: I'll start big news from the Supreme court this morning.
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: They've agreed to take up a case that involves the
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: constitutionality of Mississippi's ban on most abortions after 15 weeks
• 48:57
  Speaker 2: of pregnancy and which could give the 6-3 conservative court
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: a chance to reconsider Roe v.
• 49:02
  Speaker 3: Wade.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: This is especially alarming because you're starting to see these
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: bans that Mississippi passed with more frequency. Texas just banned
• 49:11
  Speaker 2: abortions after only six weeks. Voters in Lubbock, Texas recently
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: passed an ordinance making it the largest city to ban
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: nearly all abortions. And in just the last three days
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: of April, three days in April, 28 restrictions on abortion
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: were signed into law across seven states. So there's not
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: a lot we can do about the Supreme Court except
• 49:31
  Speaker 2: wait for a decision. But, you know, advocates are pressing
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: the Biden administration to do more to protect abortion access,
• 49:37
  Speaker 2: including ending the ban on abortion coverage for Medicaid recipients,
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: which is known as the Hyde Amendment. And the Biden
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: administration has already undid some Trump error restrictions. And the
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: FDA recently allowed access to prescription abortion medication through the mail.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: So that was progress. You know, one thing about all this,
• 49:53
  Speaker 2: Elise Hogue, who's the president of NARAL, you know, she
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: was tweeting this morning. Here's a reminder as we think
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: about upcoming elections. The GOP position is to ban abortion entirely.
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: No exceptions. It's in their platform. Ask every single candidate
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: who wants your vote how they'll expand abortion accidents. Local, state, federal,
• 50:08
  Speaker 2: everyone has a role. So we should not all sit
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: around feeling helpless just waiting for the Supreme Court.
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: It's good advice.
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: Also, also say, you know, Stephen Breyer. retire bitch. And also, uh, one.
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: Just one, it is, it is going to persuade him.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: I know it.
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Honestly, it's the best argument I have. I don't know
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: how to make it more sophisticated. Uh, one, one other,
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: one other piece of this too, is, uh, despite Breyer's, uh,
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: protestations that the court is not a political body. It
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: of course is. And I've seen, um, you know, court
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: watchers and others make this point, but it's also worth
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: keeping in mind that, uh, you know, this will, inevitably
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: become a debate over whether or not the court will
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: overturn Roe, but the court will see that. And we
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: should just be aware that it is also pernicious for
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: them to uphold Roe in some, uh, uh, ostensible way
• 51:01
  Speaker 1: while gutting, uh, women, uh, while gutting access to healthcare
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: for women. And we should just be aware that like,
• 51:08
  Speaker 1: don't let that messaging or that frame take hold because
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: there's a number of ways that they can restrict access
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: to healthcare without overturning Roe.
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah. They're constantly trying to chip away. Yep.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Tommy, what story are you keeping an eye on?
• 51:20
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 51:21
  Speaker 4: So on Tuesday of this week, so May 18th, Pennsylvania
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: is going to hold a primary election. So they're going
• 51:26
  Speaker 4: to vote on a bunch of important stuff. But the
• 51:29
  Speaker 4: thing I want to focus on for today is the
• 51:31
  Speaker 4: primary challenge to Larry Krasner, who's Philadelphia's district attorney. Krasner
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: is part of a, not big enough yet, but a
• 51:39
  Speaker 4: wave of progressive prosecutors who have been elected recently and
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: who are trying to do radical things like hold the
• 51:46
  Speaker 4: police accountable for misconduct.
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: It shouldn't be radical.
• 51:49
  Speaker 4: They're trying to generally reduce mass incarceration. And Krasner is
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: running against a guy he actually fired. And this person
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: is taking more of a law and order approach, accusing
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: Krasner of being soft on crime, all the usual tropes.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: So we're watching this race really closely because district attorneys
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: are incredibly powerful. We don't pay enough attention to their elections.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: And traditionally DAs have won by pledging to be tougher
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: on crime, promising to lock people up. Krasner took a
• 52:19
  Speaker 4: totally different approach. And this race will go a long
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: ways towards showing whether or not that's politically viable or not.
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: So if you live in Philly, vote for Larry Krasner.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: Everyone should be figuring out who their own DA is,
• 52:33
  Speaker 4: because this is absolutely critical if you want to reduce
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: mass incarceration, if you want a more accountable police force
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: in your neighborhood. So an important race to watch on Tuesday.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: I will just say, too, I was reading about this
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: election and one of Krasner's supporters, who's a legislator in Pennsylvania,
• 52:52
  Speaker 2: they're worried about low turnout because a lot of people
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: are paying attention in this race. And he said, you're
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: always concerned about maintaining interest in non-sexy races. It was
• 52:59
  Speaker 2: sexy four years ago because it was a new thing.
• 53:01
  Speaker 2: Now he's our guy. It's not as sexy. And like,
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: that's going to be a problem. up and down the
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: ballot in the midterms in 2022. Again, like and this
• 53:11
  Speaker 2: this is the danger for progressives and Democrats and saying, OK,
• 53:14
  Speaker 2: we all worked really hard in 2020. We elected some progressives.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: We elected some Democrats. Joe Biden's in the White House.
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: We can all sort of like chill out now. You
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: can't you can't chill out because every time that every
• 53:25
  Speaker 2: time there is an election of a progressive or Democrat,
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: there is a backlash. And so the forces on the
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: other side, they're going to be excited. They're going to
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: turn out. And if we don't match their turnout, we're
• 53:35
  Speaker 2: going to lose. And I think that's, you know, we'll
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: see what happens on Tuesday, but that's something for everyone
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: to watch out for.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: This is the problem with cancel culture. You know, Larry
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: Kresner isn't sexy with his pants on, can't take his
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: pants off, you know?
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: I guess he could take.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: Them off. Not with Twitter.
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: Depends on the context.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Okay, Barry Weiss here is the third... the third host today.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Oh no, it got in there.
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: What are these sub stacks I'm reading?
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: Love it.
• 54:08
  Speaker 2: What are you keeping an eye on?
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: You got to watch your kids and the sub stacks.
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: Keep an eye on those sub stacks your kids are reading.
• 54:16
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: You never know what they're going to creep into.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: Stick with the message box. Don't go anywhere else.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: Don't click out of the matches box. We got only
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: the one sub stack. There are a lot of great
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: sub stacks. Don't come at me. The Senate Rules Committee.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: held a hearing and vote for the For the People Act,
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: passing it out of committee in a party-line vote 9-9.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: The bill's path to becoming law was always tricky because
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: it would require changing the filibuster and unanimity among all
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: 50 Senate Dems. But this week, Senator Joe Manchin said
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: he's opposed to the For the People Act and in
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: favor of the John Lewis Voting Rights Act, which is
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: more targeted and looks at addressing the consequences of a
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: very bad ruling by Chief Justice John Roberts gutting the
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Voting Rights Act. Senate Democrats met for the first time
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: to make a game plan around the bill's and protecting
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: democracy where Senator Kyrsten Sinema asked Chuck Schumer, what's the
• 55:05
  Speaker 1: plan to pass this? Which is a bit like a
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: beaver putting like the finishing touches on a dam and
• 55:11
  Speaker 1: then turning to the fish and being like, how do
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: you plan to get down river? So I don't know, like.
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: I imagine- That was wild. That was wild.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: I imagine like Brian Schatz's eyes rolled so hard in
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: his head that it like made a noise.
• 55:27
  Speaker 3: Yes. Yeah.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: You have to change the filibuster that you support. You're
• 55:32
  Speaker 1: the you're the reason you're the reason. So that's, you know,
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: something to watch.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: If you if you care about voting rights, it's not
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: looking good right now. So everyone needs to sort of
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: redouble their efforts to. call their Democratic senators specifically if
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: yours is Joe Manchin or Kyrsten Sinema. But I mean, look,
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: the John Lewis Voting Rights Act is incredibly important. And
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: if they could pass that, that would be enormous progress.
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: It basically reinstates the preclearance that John Roberts and his
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: court sort of gutted back in 2013. And so states
• 56:05
  Speaker 2: would not be able to just change their voting laws
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: without preclearance from the federal government. So it's an important law.
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: But again, even Joe Manchin being for that, I'm like, okay, well,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: are you willing to get rid of the filibuster to
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: pass that law? Because so far the only Republican we
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: know who supports it is Lisa Murkowski had co-sponsored it
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: a while back. So that's one, you'd still need nine more.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: So what's your plan? Kirsten Sinema should ask Joe Manson,
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: what's your plan to pass that?
• 56:28
  Speaker 1: You should ask in the mirror.
• 56:31
  Speaker 2: Also ask in the mirror.
• 56:33
  Speaker 1: What's your plan?
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: What's your plan? Anyway.
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: All of us, all these people worshiping at the altar
• 56:40
  Speaker 4: of fake bipartisanship. in lieu of doing stuff.
• 56:44
  Speaker 3: It's bad. It's bad.
• 56:46
  Speaker 2: Well, keep up those calls. Keep up the pressure.
• 56:48
  Speaker 5: All right.
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Anthony Fauci, for joining us today. Twice on
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: the pod for Fauci now. He's a friend of the
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: pod status.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: He loves coming here.
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: Next time we'll get him to admit he'll vote for Biden.
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: He voted for Biden, yeah.
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll pin him down on that the third time.
• 57:04
  Speaker 4: So I have to do a quick clarification and apology
• 57:07
  Speaker 4: to my mother. Last week, I told a story about
• 57:09
  Speaker 4: the time when our cat died.
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Oh, did that not go over well?
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: No, the cat in question, her name was Snooper.
• 57:15
  Speaker 4: She had a heart attack midair and died while trying
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: to jump onto the kitchen table to get to her food.
• 57:21
  Speaker 4: I think I was about 10 years old at the time.
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: I made it sound like my mother's reaction was callous, perhaps.
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: In fact, we all were very sad. We loved the cat,
• 57:30
  Speaker 4: even though the cat was incredibly mean and used to
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: slash my face over and over and over again.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: Of course, we love the cats. We love all our animals.
• 57:37
  Speaker 3: We had lots of animals.
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: But my mom just wanted me to point out that
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: the reason The cat was left in the basement for
• 57:43
  Speaker 4: days for my father to deal with was because it
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: was the middle of winter and the ground was frozen.
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: And you can't bury a dead cat in your backyard
• 57:51
  Speaker 4: if you can't get the shovel on the ground.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's where that saying comes from.
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Yes, exactly. So that's the latest on Snooper, the heart attack.
• 58:02
  Speaker 2: Sorry, Luis.
• 58:04
  Speaker 1: I didn't take it that way, by the way. I
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: didn't see it as callous. When you told her the
• 58:07
  Speaker 1: first time.
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: I didn't take it that way.
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: That's because you know my mom. Nothing about her is callous.
• 58:11
  Speaker 4: She's the nicest human I've ever known.
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: And look, what are you going to do?
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Now we're doing Tommy politics.
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah, now we're doing my politics. The cat fucking died.
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: Look, that's what the end of the podcast is for.
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: It's for corrections, particularly corrections that our family demands.
• 58:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and grudges.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: Speaking of, still no apology from Larry David and the pod.
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: Bye.
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: Bye.
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: Pod Save America is a Crooked Media production. The executive
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: producer is Michael Martinez. Our senior producer is Flavia Casas.
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Our associate producers are Jazzy Marine and Olivia Martinez. It's
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Kyle Seglin is our
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: sound engineer. Thanks to Tanya Sominator, Katie Long, Roman Papadimitriou,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: Caroline Rustin, and Justine Howe for production support. And to
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Nar Melkonian, Yale Freed, and
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: Milo Kim, who film and upload these episodes as videos
• 59:06
  Speaker 2: every week.