Latest / UK Column Radio / Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 16

Transcript

Weekly UKC Banter: Episode 16 · UK Column Radio

0:38
Mike, I am in my new studio. As you can see behind me, it's
0:42
not yet finished. Please forgive the nature of
0:46
this recording. Also, there's no Charles here.
0:49
No indeed, he is on holiday with his family and a well deserved
0:53
one at that. I got a message this morning,
0:57
Mike, in, I don't know, Telegram or whatever it was, someone said
1:00
what's happening in Gaza's it the, the, the line was, well,
1:04
this is what happens in a war. And it was in response to the
1:08
absolutely devastating footage of what's of what we're seeing
1:11
there. It's not a war.
1:16
That is an excellent point, right?
1:19
A war is a conflict between two relatively equal parties, or
1:25
maybe multiple relatively equal parties, you know, that are
1:29
effectively armed, the same, have the same kinds of budgets
1:33
and they're determined to, you know, beat each other up
1:36
somewhat. This is not a war in the sense
1:38
that, you know, Hamas, no matter what you think about Hamas as an
1:41
organisation, is a militia. It's not a, it's not a national
1:46
army because there is no nation and they have no budget.
1:51
And so, you know, the relative, the, the relative disparity
1:55
between that that side, the Palestinian side and the Israeli
2:00
side is, is what makes this conflict so reprehensible and
2:04
what has made the entire situation so reprehensible from
2:07
the beginning. And I have to say, Jeremy, you
2:09
know, this was this was something a conversation that I
2:12
had with, with people that were pro Palestine or, sorry, pro
2:16
Israel right back to, you know, October 7.
2:21
And it's something that people that are pro Israel don't seem
2:25
to get. They think that Israel is
2:28
justified in doing anything that it does because they're dealing
2:30
with terrorism. Just to remind everybody that,
2:33
you know, the, the, the, the principle of terrorism isn't
2:37
even defined. And in fact, one of the things
2:39
that this conflict seems to be doing is to, is to be raising
2:43
that point. And, and people are starting to
2:45
ask the question also, the fact that the, that the Terrorism Act
2:48
is being used with such impunity in the United Kingdom to shut
2:51
down freedom of speech. These issues are, are raising
2:56
the question of, of even what is terrorism.
2:58
But the other final point to make on this is the question of
3:03
international law in this situation and and the question
3:07
of occupation. And because Israel is an
3:10
occupying power under international law, Palestinians
3:16
have the right to do whatever they feel is necessary to resist
3:21
that occupation. And you know, if we think back
3:27
to the Second War, World War, for example, the French or the
3:29
Belgian resistance groups or the Dutch resistance groups or even
3:33
the German resistance groups were not considered by Britain
3:37
or the United States to be terrorist organisations.
3:40
Undoubtedly they were considered to be terrorist organisations by
3:44
the Nazis. So, you know, we've got to be,
3:47
we've got to be careful with their definitions.
3:49
We've got to be, try to be objective no matter what we
3:53
think about, about the thing, try to be objective with, with
3:58
our, you know, our observation of what's going on and, and our
4:03
use of the word war, because using war in this context is
4:07
just completely inappropriate. Well, I just looked up the
4:10
definition of terrorism and it says yeah, it's defined as the
4:13
unlawful use of violence or threats to intimidate or coerce
4:18
A civilian, population or government with the goal of
4:21
furthering political, social or ideological objectives.
4:24
You could probably argue, therefore, that Israel is a
4:27
terrorist. Well, absolutely, absolutely.
4:31
And and Britain and any country that is supporting a conflict
4:37
anywhere but. But then the term is fuzzy.
4:42
Then the term is. Precisely.
4:43
That was exactly what I was about to say.
4:45
The problem with that definition is that that certain terms are
4:47
undefined and where's the line drawn?
4:50
You know, at the moment Britain is drawing a line with respect
4:53
to terrorism that that effectively, if someone throws
4:56
some paint on an aeroplane, whether or not it's on an RAF
5:00
base is irrelevant. They throw some paint on an
5:03
aeroplane, that's a an act of terrorism.
5:04
It's, it's not an act of terrorism, that's an act of
5:07
protest. And so that's at least in my
5:11
mind, that's an act of protest, not an act of terrorism in
5:13
somebody else's mind. So because the definition is so
5:16
open to, to distortion and, and subjectivity that that in itself
5:24
is problematic. But that doesn't, you know, in,
5:27
in this case, that doesn't change the fact that the people
5:30
of Palestine are subject to, to an occupation and therefore they
5:35
have rights under international law.
5:37
And this is international law that we have all signed up to.
5:41
And so, you know, the fact, the fact that the fact that that our
5:45
countries are prepared to say on one hand, yeah, we we are fully
5:51
behind the rules based international order,
5:53
international law, all these kinds of terms are are bandied
5:57
about by our politicians with the full intention of pretty
6:01
much ignoring them. OK, but then the term war is
6:07
also fuzzy because it would it would imply that there is an
6:11
equal force on either side, and as you just pointed out, this is
6:14
an occupation. Yeah, I mean this, this does not
6:18
the, again, this is not a war. This, this is an occupation.
6:22
And and this is a resistance to an occupation.
6:25
And this is the absolutely brutal suppression of a
6:29
resistance using, you know, methods which are so
6:34
disproportionate and, you know, but, but the other point of this
6:38
is German that it's absolutely clear now, it's been clear for a
6:42
long time that the what the ultimate intention of this is,
6:47
and that is to remove Palestinians from Gaza.
6:51
And the, the other thing that that's going on, of course, is
6:55
while all the focus is on Gaza, similar activities are going on
6:59
in the West Bank. And, and in fact, Israel this
7:04
week has been attempting to hold a meeting.
7:07
They tried on Tuesday and it was put off until Thursday and then
7:12
they tried again on Thursday and they've put it off again.
7:17
They were holding a meeting about whether to annex part of
7:21
the West Bank following the demands by Britain and France
7:27
that they would recognise the Palestinian state.
7:29
Now, my personal view of this recognition of Palestinian state
7:33
is the these claims from Britain and France is that they're
7:37
basically telling Israel to get on with it because if they don't
7:41
achieve their goals by a certain date, you know this.
7:44
So this is about putting pressure on Israel to get on
7:46
with things. Nonetheless, Israel has as, As
7:52
for whatever reason, I suspect because they don't feel that
7:55
they can get on with things as quickly as, as they're being
7:58
encouraged to, that they were considering annexing part of the
8:04
West Bank to sort of minimise the the implications of a
8:08
recognition of a Palestinian state.
8:10
But UAE has stepped in and said, well, no, if you do that, we're
8:14
going to withdraw from the Abraham Accord.
8:16
So, so Israel's now dropped that idea again for the meantime, but
8:20
this is an idea that has come come up periodically.
8:23
So, so undoubtedly it's going to come up again in the future.
8:27
But you know this, this is a country which is, which is
8:29
behaving absolutely beyond any sense of reasonableness.
8:35
But of course any criticism of that is subject to accusations
8:39
of anti Semitism. And this whole conflation of
8:43
anti Zionism and anti semitism I think is really problematic.
8:46
You said international. Law.
8:50
I swore yes. It doesn't mean anything.
8:56
That's that's not true. I think that I think that
9:02
Western governments are trying to make it not mean anything.
9:05
They certainly are ignoring it when it, when they, when it
9:08
suits them. I think that Russia and China
9:12
have been pretty reasonable in their in their observance of
9:20
international law in the last lot of years.
9:23
That is much to the disgust of the United States, the United
9:26
Kingdom and other countries on the UN Security Council, because
9:31
Russia and China have used their veto to really limit the the
9:37
scope of some of the bad behaviour that that Britain and
9:40
the United States have wanted to pursue.
9:43
On the other hand, Britain and the United, well, Britain
9:46
doesn't veto anything. Britain only abstains.
9:49
It doesn't ever vote against anything in the Security
9:51
Council. That's a policy decision, but
9:53
the, the United States is quite happy to use this veto And the,
9:57
the, the, the contrast that I would make here is that Russia
10:01
and China use their veto to prevent conflict and to prevent
10:05
war. Britain and the United, well,
10:07
the United States on Britain's behalf, uses the veto to
10:11
maintain conflict and maintain war.
10:13
And, and that is for the last 20 years, that's absolutely the
10:17
model that has been used. So, you know, there's lots to
10:20
criticise Russia and China about, but in this respect and
10:23
and with respect to international law, they have
10:26
absolutely been on the right side of events.
10:29
OK, All right. That's interesting.
10:30
I suppose so there are there are some countries that are playing
10:35
by the rules, Israel not being I'm.
10:37
Not going to say they're, they're always playing by the
10:40
rules, but they're certainly doing a lot better job at it
10:44
than than than our countries are, yes.
10:47
But I mean, so if Israel is not playing by the rules, what does
10:52
it mean ultimately if South Africa supposedly took them to
10:55
court? What came of that?
10:59
Yeah, look, South Africa is, is doing what South Africa can do.
11:03
The, the, the so called global S is doing what they can do at the
11:08
end of the day, you know, without the majority support
11:14
within the UN Security Council, Israel is clearly getting the go
11:18
ahead to do whatever it likes that that's with the open
11:21
support of of Britain in the United States and, and, you
11:25
know, outside of the Security Council of other European
11:29
countries. That's our problem.
11:31
We've got to deal with that. And, and of course, this is this
11:34
is where the system falls down in a sense, because it relies on
11:39
everybody's recognition of their role in upholding international
11:42
law. And, and we are not fulfilling
11:45
our obligations because partly because our, our societies are
11:48
completely split on this issue. And but you know, the fact, the
11:53
fact of the matter is that that increasing numbers of people are
11:56
recognising what's going on here.
11:57
Increasing numbers of people are making their, their feelings
12:02
felt about it. And you know, I was, I was
12:05
fascinated that if you, if you went to any of the pro Palestine
12:11
demonstrations in the UK since 7th of October, you generally
12:17
saw, you know, immigrant left wing Asian or Middle Eastern
12:24
faces in the, in the, in the, in the, in the demonstration until
12:31
the UK banned or prescribed Palestine action.
12:36
And whenever the following demonstration happened, which
12:39
was there to to basically support in support of Palestine
12:43
action and demand that the UK drop this defining Palestine
12:48
action as a terrorist organisation.
12:50
The faces in the in the crowd were quite different.
12:53
They were white, they were middle class, they were doctors,
12:55
they were lawyers. This was something that this was
12:58
a demographic in the UK that was not out on the on the pro
13:02
Palestine demonstration, at least not significantly out on
13:05
those demonstrations over the last couple of years.
13:07
And, and suddenly this what what as soon as the British
13:11
government was perceived to have taking a step too far in the
13:15
shutting down of, of freedom of speech and the right to gather
13:18
and the right to demonstrate and the right to demand that
13:21
something changed. Then those people came out in
13:24
support and that. So I think I think there's
13:27
there's although none of this is actually stopping Israel doing
13:32
what it's doing. There is massive pressure on
13:35
Israel at the moment and and that needs to build even
13:38
further. But you know, as I say, the
13:40
problem here is the the society is divided on the issue.
13:45
Yeah. I mean, when you talk about
13:46
occupation, the immediate response is no, it's the country
13:50
and multiple countries around the world recognise Israel as a
13:54
country. So therefore it's not an
13:56
occupation. It is now a legitimate country,
13:58
no? No, no, with the hip Gaza is not
14:01
part of Israel and and in fact, Israel has built a big, huge,
14:04
big wall around it to make sure that it's not part of Israel.
14:07
The West Bank is not part of Israel either.
14:09
So it's an occupation in the sense that there are, you know,
14:14
that that Gaza is a has a for a long time effectively been an
14:18
open air prison in the sense that there's a wall around it
14:21
that people cannot come and go freely.
14:23
There are watchtowers and regular places with people with
14:26
guns and, and people with, with at all those guns have been
14:30
using those guns with impunity. So, you know, you, you began
14:33
this conversation by talking about a video that you'd seen of
14:36
children being killed. Well, the point is that this has
14:39
been going on for a very, very long time.
14:41
Well, well beyond, further back than the 7th of October.
14:47
And, you know, no matter what we think about the 7th of October,
14:52
you know, many, many people, people within Gaza saw that as
14:55
being a, a reaction to the types of terrorism.
15:00
I'm going to use that word in this case that Israel has been
15:03
perpetrating on Gaza for a long time.
15:05
It's not the first time that Gaza has been bombed.
15:09
You know, Israel has used really very unpleasant like white
15:14
phosphorus bombs, for example, weapon weaponry.
15:18
This is actually illegal under international law, but they did
15:21
it anyway. And, and so, you know, Israel
15:25
has been behaving this way towards Gaza for a very long
15:28
time. That's where the occupation is
15:29
not, not within Israel itself. I got a, a, another comment from
15:34
somebody part of the same discussion who said, yes, I'm
15:38
being ignorant because Israel, Mike pulled out.
15:42
It withdrew from Gaza in 2005 or 2006, you know, and it was the
15:46
Gazans, Mike, who voted in Hamas.
15:49
And they must now deal with the consequences of having Hamas as
15:53
their government. I think that's a pretty loaded
16:00
statement. Look, Hamas is 2 things.
16:02
It's, it's like Sinn Fein IRA, it's, it's two things.
16:06
It's got a political wing, which is the part of it which runs the
16:11
the country in a or the, the territory in a sense.
16:15
And and it has the militia. But Israel never really
16:19
withdrew, did they? Because they're constantly
16:22
attacking. And no.
16:23
And they they controlled the sea space and and the air space too.
16:27
Precisely. You know, anybody that tries to,
16:29
I mean, it's, it's often the case that that Gazans who go
16:32
fishing for food are being attacked by Israel.
16:38
Israel is constantly attacked or was constantly attacking into
16:41
Gaza. And, you know, I want to just
16:44
make it absolutely clear here. I'm not an expert on this.
16:46
So, so, you know, I'm, I'm giving my thoughts on, on my
16:51
awareness of it. There are many other people
16:54
that, that understand the, the, the sort of detail of what has
16:58
happened over the years much better than I do.
17:00
So, so, you know, don't take my word for this.
17:02
Go to those voices. Yes, but you are allowed to have
17:07
an opinion and I think this is where where people fall apart.
17:10
They'll go well, have you been there?
17:13
Well, you're just following the propaganda line.
17:15
So I'll quote Al Jazeera. Yes, but that's that's anti
17:18
Israel propaganda. OK, well what about the point
17:21
is, is that how do you philtre through?
17:23
Someone might say yes, but the videos you saw of babies or
17:26
children being killed, that's propaganda to make you hate
17:29
Israel. Ultimately, you're sitting now
17:32
with the situation, Mike, of the fog of war propaganda.
17:37
Yeah, but it's not a war. So, so, so right.
17:42
I have look this this conflict, this conflict, this occupation,
17:47
this is something very different to anything else that's going on
17:51
in the world. And the reason for that and the
17:55
reason that I really have trouble with people that support
17:59
Israel's actions here, is it not in all cases, but more often
18:04
than not, the reason they support it is because of some
18:09
kind of religious or ideological belief in Israel as being
18:13
something that existed in biblical times.
18:16
And that this is the modern iteration of that.
18:19
And therefore the chosen people, but the chosen country and so
18:25
on. And, and therefore it has the
18:28
right to do whatever it likes because God said so.
18:30
And that, that that is often the view of, of people.
18:33
And I'm have a real problem with, with people that call
18:37
themselves Christians or call themselves Jews, who are, you
18:41
know, who are religious and, and believe in a God and believe in
18:46
the 10 commandments and so on. And are prepared to settle that
18:49
aside because of some notion that they have in their own
18:52
minds that that this nation state, which is nothing whatever
18:57
to do with anything that happened historically, is it
19:01
somehow represents what happened historically and therefore has
19:04
the right to treat human beings like animals.
19:07
And this is really something which is beyond the pale as far
19:12
as I'm concerned. We've got to look at this
19:15
conflict objectively. We've got to consider that the
19:18
people that are on the receiving end of the of the bullets, the
19:20
bombs are, you know, human beings and they should be.
19:26
They have rights and Israel does not have rights in this case.
19:30
So, you know, we know also that there's that aside from all of
19:34
that thing that that behind what's going on here is this
19:37
this big geopolitical game for control of West, Southwest Asia.
19:43
And and also now with Trump, we've got this third element of
19:48
the so called Trumps Riviera where he's basically looking at
19:52
this as some fantastic property deal, some fast, fantastic, you
19:57
know, financial opportunity that he can take a turn turn Gaza
20:01
into some kind of. Dubai equivalent and and just
20:05
basically kick, kick the the people that have lived there out
20:09
of that area and throw them into the desert and say off you go
20:13
look after yourselves. You know they're they're this is
20:16
this thing is wrong in so many levels.
20:18
It's unbelievable. And and the people that are pro
20:20
Israel I think need to take a step back and and consider this.
20:24
Yeah. Did you see that Breitbart
20:26
article where it's said that Trump has made a suggestion of
20:29
removing everybody from Gaza for about 10 years, like just about
20:34
10 years, so they can rebuild it and make it into some sort of
20:37
Singapore, Hong Kong type super advanced country?
20:41
No. No, they're not going to make it
20:43
into a Singapore, Hong Kong type super advanced country.
20:46
They're going to make it into. They're going to make it into a
20:49
playground for the rich and the powerful.
20:52
And there's no, there is not one single person that's currently
20:55
residing there that's still alive, that is going to get back
20:59
there after this job is done right, That this, this is a lie.
21:03
Now we've got to remember who created this, this plan.
21:07
And you know, it was a number of organisations, but the Tony
21:11
Blair Institute was absolutely involved in this.
21:14
And so you know that but, and this is something that Trump is
21:18
clearly very, very keen to, to get involved with because he's a
21:23
property dealer at the end of the day.
21:27
And this is, this is kept well. Well, there's some debate about
21:30
that and how much money is actually made successfully on
21:33
these property deals. But nonetheless, you know, he,
21:38
he clearly sees this as a massive opportunity.
21:40
And if it wasn't for these, you know, silly poor people that
21:44
need to get up, get the hell out of the way, you know, it's, it's
21:47
despicable. Yeah, I was thinking more
21:51
philosophically, Mike, how, how do you actually engage in this
21:56
kind of conversation? Because it's, it's a forever
21:58
debate, right? It's always going to be
22:00
polarised. It's black and white, it's
22:02
binary. That's it, right.
22:03
You, I'm, I'm not a Jew, I'm not an Arab, right.
22:06
So I don't actually have a dog in that fight pretty much the
22:09
same as you, but I do I do feel that innocent people.
22:15
No, I look, I'm going to interrupt you there 'cause I
22:16
think you do have a dog in this fight.
22:19
I think that anybody that considers themselves a human
22:21
being has a dog in this fight because, because, because at the
22:25
end of the day is basic morality.
22:27
And do we believe that some the state has the right to or people
22:33
have the right to kill each other?
22:36
We do in certain circumstances. This is defined as we've already
22:40
talked about in this conversation, if you are
22:43
suffering oppression as a result of an occupation they have you
22:46
have the right to armed resistance.
22:48
Everybody agrees that that's correct.
22:50
We also agree in all the various international lodge and even
22:54
conventions all the rest. We also agree that Israel has no
22:58
right to do what it's doing. And that's written down in black
23:01
and white in principle right now, the fact that, that, that
23:06
our governments are prepared. Well, I'm not, I shouldn't say
23:10
our governments because because your government hasn't done
23:12
this. Your government has attempted
23:13
to, to take this situation to the International Criminal
23:16
Court. But my government, the United
23:19
States government, EU governments have decided that
23:22
that international law and, and basic human rights should be set
23:27
aside in this case. And you know that, that there's
23:33
nothing else to say here, that that this is there, there, there
23:36
are basic principles in place that we are choosing to ignore.
23:40
And that, that aside from from what you think about is, you
23:47
know, Israel's right to exist as a, as a state, as an entity, no
23:52
matter what you think about that, that should be where this
23:56
conversation comes back to. What I was going to ask you is
24:00
how do you actually engage because this is so heated, it's
24:05
so polarised. I just yesterday I chatted to
24:07
somebody and they are vigilant, militant in their response.
24:12
Israel is defending itself. It doesn't want to be wiped off
24:15
the face of Earth, Mike. Yes.
24:20
How do you, how do you engage with it?
24:22
You can't engage with that because that there's something
24:24
ideological about that position. There's something fundamentally
24:29
there's something else going on because yes, it is absolutely
24:32
wrong. It's it's, it's wrong because
24:35
what threat at the end of the day to the existence?
24:38
Now, we're not talking about individual killings or
24:41
individual acts here. What that person was talking
24:46
about is the existence of Israel.
24:49
Now, what possible thing can Hamas do to affect the existence
24:56
of Israel? Absolutely nothing.
24:58
They don't have the weaponry for it.
25:00
Now, if if you're saying that Hamas is supported by Iran and
25:05
that Iran has the capability of dealing with Israel, that is
25:09
true. But I would like to somebody to
25:12
point. Out to be.
25:14
Well, I'd like somebody to point out to me an example of when
25:17
Iran proactively attacked Israel without having been attacked
25:22
first. Now the issue of Iran, Israel
25:29
relations relations is, is something which is for the
25:32
international community. It's not, it's not an open
25:34
conflict at the moment, but Iran is and other places are.
25:42
I mean, obviously Hamas is getting it's, it's limited
25:45
weaponry from somewhere. And so I presume, I don't know
25:49
for a fact, but I presume that Iran has something to do with
25:51
that. I don't see that that is somehow
25:56
an existential threat to Israel because Iran is not providing
26:00
Hamas with nuclear bombs, you know, So Israel is a nuclear
26:05
armed state. It has every piece of Western
26:11
built technological killing hardware the the available to it
26:16
that it could possibly ask for. It seems to have unlimited
26:19
supplies of it. Whatever Hamas has has to be
26:22
smuggled into the country under the nose of of Israel.
26:25
And therefore, you know what, what possible existential threat
26:31
can Hamas be? It is completely irrational.
26:34
It's ridiculous position for anybody to take and and it's
26:37
just justification for brutality and murder.
26:42
While you were talking, I got a message from Vanessa Bailey
26:46
regarding her disappointment in the BRICS countries around Gaza.
26:49
And in a previous discussion I had with Vanessa, she also
26:53
expressed a disappointment in the Arab countries that does.
26:57
They just don't seem to care. What do you think is going on?
27:03
I think that that I mean, that's such a big that's about such a
27:08
big question. If it take the the Arab look, I
27:11
think that any country who is, who thinks that they can in any
27:17
way negotiate with the West or or behave in a certain way
27:20
because actually they're scared of the West.
27:25
You know, if so, Arab countries want to stay in bed with
27:29
Britain, the United States for their, you know, for their own
27:33
ends because for no other reason, perhaps.
27:37
I mean, I don't know what's in their minds, but I'm just
27:39
speculating here. They're, they're looking at the,
27:41
the behaviour of Britain and the United States over the last
27:44
40-50 years and they're saying, well, we don't want to be on the
27:46
receiving end of that. So we've got to be their
27:48
friends. I, I can see why that would be
27:53
as a thought process that would go through anybody's head.
27:56
I, I think that, I think it's more than economic.
28:00
I, I think that, that, you know, Britain and Britain, the United
28:03
States, the West has demonstrated A willingness to
28:09
bomb the crap out of a country for the sake of regime change
28:14
because they didn't like the, the cut of, of a particular
28:16
leader's jib. You know, if we look at Iraq, we
28:19
look at Syria, we look at Libya, you know, this, the, the, the
28:23
demonstration has been made time after time after time.
28:26
And each time these things happened, it was under very
28:29
questionable international law situation.
28:33
So, so we have the West has demonstrated time and again that
28:37
it's willing to set aside international law for its own
28:41
geopolitical ends. And so any country in the, in
28:45
Southwest Asia, Arab countries are looking at this and, and you
28:50
know, I would say they're, they're looking at the world
28:52
with some nervousness and, and they're attempting to stay in
28:56
certain people's good books. I, I think that's not the right
29:00
approach personally. Now, As for the bricks, again,
29:06
we're looking at a situation where people are still playing
29:11
geopolitical games. They're still wanting to have
29:15
influence in certain areas. And there there's massive
29:18
competition between, in Southwest Asia, between Belton
29:24
Road and other so called economic corridors, which are
29:28
more aligned with, with, you know, ideas for economic
29:31
corridors which are more aligned with, with Western countries.
29:35
And so, you know, I'd, I completely understand Vanessa's
29:40
position on this and agree with it, but there isn't really a but
29:47
here. The, the reason for it, I think
29:49
is, is, is because of the, the, for the reasons we've just
29:53
discussed for, for geopolitical reasons.
29:55
And, and, you know, at the end of the day, that's, that's
29:58
something that, that needs to change.
30:00
You know, in the last few days we've had the, the, uh,
30:02
Shanghai, uh, corporation organisation, uh, meeting, we've
30:07
had Modi shaking hands with Xi Jinping for the first time and
30:13
basically saying, well, we appreciate that there's been a
30:16
border conflict between India and China, but, but we're going
30:19
to set that aside and, and, and build something together.
30:24
We had for the commemoration of the, the defeat of Japan in the
30:28
Second World War, Putin and and Kim Jong Un.
30:34
So, you know, China has has clearly is clearly hoping that
30:39
North Korea is going to come back into the fold as it were
30:41
and not be such a pariah state. You know the the point.
30:48
Here is Yeah, sorry. Go on.
30:51
Yeah, no, no, you why? Tell us why you're laughing.
30:55
Because North Korea is like, it's this, it's this weird.
30:58
It's just this weird scenario. It's like a situation.
31:01
It's not even a country. I don't know what, I don't know
31:03
what's going on. I know nothing about North.
31:06
Korea, I'm going to, I'm going to say something different
31:07
there. I have massive respect for North
31:10
Korea right now. I'm not particularly, I don't
31:12
have massive respect for its political system.
31:15
But the fact of the matter is that North Korea took a decision
31:19
that it was not going to put capitulate to Western demands
31:23
that it behaved in a certain way.
31:25
And North Korea has absolutely suffered.
31:29
It has absolutely suffered as a result.
31:32
They are extremely poor. And like I say, I'm not going
31:35
to, I'm not going to say that I'm any kind of a fan of of Kim
31:41
Jong Un or his father or the way that that country is governed
31:45
internally. But the fact that they basically
31:48
stuck 2 fingers up at the West and said you do you, you run
31:54
your sanctions regime, you do whatever you like.
31:56
We are not, we are not going to become your your sort of puppets
32:01
in the world. I think that's got to be
32:03
respected. It'd be great if many more
32:05
countries did that. But but you know, coming back to
32:09
the, to the Russia, China thing and Israel, yeah, they, I think
32:14
they, if they are going to at least use the language of, of
32:20
saying we stand for international law and we want a
32:24
level playing field and we want win, win and all these kinds of
32:26
things. They, they need to be much
32:30
stronger on taking a position over Israel's behaviour.
32:33
There's no question about that in my, in my mind.
32:35
But in in the meantime, as I say, there's lots of positives
32:39
going on in that part of the world as well.
32:41
Mike, you were talking earlier about the problems arising from
32:47
being ideologically driven around this sort of thing named
32:49
pro Israel or or anti Palestine or whatever it might be.
32:54
But if if any of the neighbouring Arab countries like
32:59
the Gulf States or whatever, that all the countries from the
33:01
Levant or whatever, if they got involved, would that not also be
33:06
an ideological imposition of sorts?
33:11
No, no, I was talking about people in in the West who
33:16
support Israel are doing so often from an ideological
33:21
standpoint and therefore willing to ignore or even in some cases
33:25
support brutality. Not because they think it's not
33:30
because they think that in and of itself it's the right thing
33:33
to do, but because because they think that for biblical reasons,
33:38
Israel has the right to do this. And, and I think, I think when
33:42
you set aside your principles on that basis, then you're on a
33:45
slippery slope to a bad place. No, no, no.
33:48
Yeah, sorry. You're correct.
33:49
What I was asking is, do you think that I being ideological
33:54
is not always a bad thing? It's basically what I'm asking
33:57
because if you if you're ideological for principled
34:00
reasons, then it's then it's fine.
34:05
Like let's say, let's say. As long as it's not
34:08
hypocritical. I mean right if you know the.
34:11
Basis Egypt. Egypt.
34:12
Let's say no. Egypt.
34:13
No, but no. Hold on a second.
34:14
No, hold on a second, Jerm. The basis of Christian and
34:17
Jewish ideology is the 10 commandments.
34:22
The 10 commandments, depending how you interpret it.
34:25
Some say that the that the relevant commandment is thou
34:28
shalt not kill. Others say it's thou shalt not
34:32
murder again, we're back to definitions and and whether
34:37
whether Israel's activity is murder or not.
34:40
And but the fact of the matter is, and I think if you're being
34:45
objective about it, that particular commandment is
34:48
without question being very severely challenged by what's
34:52
going on here. And the fact that people, Jews
34:56
and Christians are prepared to set aside that commandment,
35:01
which is supposed to be the absolute foundation of their
35:03
entire ideology for the sake of political expediency.
35:08
Is, is that's, that's that's the issue here.
35:12
Now I would suggest that that that religious wars, wars based
35:20
on ideology are never good. And that is something that that
35:23
is a you know, since the fall of the Roman Empire until pretty
35:28
much the modern day religious wars have been a feature big and
35:33
small. Even where I grew up with it was
35:35
a feature for 30 years. So, you know, I think it is, I
35:40
think religious wars are really the stupidest type of war that
35:44
you can possibly have because it's, it's for no other reason
35:47
than than what you believe. I mean, for goodness sake, it's
35:50
not even a war over water or resources.
35:53
It's a war over ideology. And this is the most ridiculous
35:56
excuse for killing people that I can possibly imagine.
36:01
So I know I had to. So to answer your question, I
36:03
don't believe there's ever a a A use for an ideological
36:09
justification or I don't think there's ever a justification
36:11
ideologically for war. An interesting converse
36:19
consequence of this whole thing is that it's created also
36:25
extreme antagonism and animosity towards Jews.
36:32
I think that that is, I'm not going to say the fault, but
36:38
it's, it's, it's the, the Jews are their own worst enemy in
36:43
this case. Because, because although there
36:48
are significant numbers of Jews who, who are openly anti Zionist
36:53
and some real really thoughtful people like Gilad Atzman, for
37:00
example, who, who are making have been making this argument
37:04
for a very long time, you know, an anti Zionist argument for a
37:07
very long time. Yes.
37:11
Well, indeed, there are a number of of really excellent voices on
37:14
this. The the fact of the matter is
37:17
that that the, the use of Jewish money and the Zionist lobby as
37:26
it's described to shut down any criticism on the basis that anti
37:32
Zionism or anti Israel sentiment is somehow anti Jewish sentiment
37:37
is really problematic. It's it's, it's beyond
37:40
problematic. It's just, it's, it's
37:42
reprehensible. And, and of course the, the
37:45
Jewish community themselves kind of fall for this narrative and,
37:50
and automatically feel that that an attack on, on the behaviour
37:55
of, of one particular political ideology is an attack on them,
38:00
when in fact it's not. Now, I'm, I absolutely think
38:07
that anybody that throws stones at a synagogue on the basis of
38:11
what's going on in Israel, I think that that's ridiculous.
38:14
There are other ways to to to give opposition to what's going
38:20
on. Stop buying products that are
38:22
that are, you know, produced in Israel or or connected to Israel
38:27
in some way. Certainly absolutely support the
38:32
idea of protest against anybody that's manufacturing arms for
38:37
Israel or shipping arms for Israel.
38:41
I'm totally in support of anybody that verbally criticises
38:47
Zionism or Israel's and certainly their right to make
38:50
those criticisms. But yeah, I mean, I don't see
38:54
that, that, you know, violence against the person, any person
38:59
is anything other than utterly hypocritical.
39:01
You know, if we're going to criticise Israel for what it's
39:04
doing, it's, it seems to be ridiculous to go around and beat
39:08
up, you know, the nearest Jewish person that you can find.
39:12
This is this is beyond hypocritical.
39:17
I wonder if this is just a never ending a never ending debate,
39:24
no? I don't think it's AI, don't
39:25
think it's a never ending debate.
39:27
I think it appears never ending because at this point in time
39:31
the Zionist lobby is so powerful.
39:33
But I think that is absolutely changing and I think that that
39:36
that October the 7th has has done a lot to change that.
39:41
Now, the, the cost for the Palestinians has been
39:44
horrendous, but I think that the tide is without question, the
39:49
tide is turning. And the fact that we are having
39:52
this conversation, I, I'm absolutely optimistic on the
39:59
long term basis. I'm utterly pessimistic on a
40:01
short term basis because I think that that, that a lot, a lot
40:06
more people are going to have to pay the ultimate cost before,
40:09
before that situation changes. I mean, I think, I think that,
40:13
you know, the brutality that's on.
40:15
That's on show here is, is beyond anything that that can be
40:19
possibly justified. But you know, but so many are
40:22
are dying on on a daily basis that that, you know, by the time
40:27
that that this opposition builds to a point where where it can't
40:32
happen anymore, there's going to be significant further loss.
40:35
And I think that is that's where I'm pessimistic.
40:38
I'm optimistic in the end because I think that that you
40:41
know, that, that, that what is being done is just is, is so
40:46
reprehensible. It can't be ignored on a long
40:48
term basis. And, and ultimately it's going
40:50
to, it's going to, I think see the end of Israel as a state.
40:55
I think Israel is, is very close to, to, I think their own
41:00
behaviour is the existential threat here.
41:01
Not, not, not anything that's coming from outside.
41:06
That's a good point. Do you reckon they'll make 100
41:08
years? No, not.
41:10
Not if they continue this policy and and and you know, as I
41:15
honestly think not if they continue this policy.
41:19
So, you know, we we all we always have to remember that
41:22
that Israel as a state, as an entity is a creation of Britain
41:28
and it it was imposed on the region and it was imposed on the
41:33
region. We understand why it was imposed
41:35
on the region for geopolitical reasons.
41:38
And it would be really nice if, if the Jewish community as a
41:44
whole recognised that they were pawns in this game as much as
41:49
the Arabs are pawns in this game.
41:51
And, and I think part of the problem here is that that we are
41:57
ordinary people of whatever colour, creed and and so on, are
42:01
not recognising what's going on here.
42:04
We're, we're absolutely determined to fight with each
42:07
other. We're due against Muslim, Muslim
42:09
against Christian, Christian against whatever we, we are
42:13
determined to fight. We're just, we are continually
42:16
played by global elites. And this is just another one of
42:19
those games. And, and I, I, I use the word
42:24
game there because for them it is a game for us.
42:29
It's of course, it's much more serious when we're on the
42:32
receiving end of these games. You know, they, they used to
42:35
call it the great game, the whole geopolitical thing and for
42:41
them it is just a game. We've got to start recognising
42:44
who the real enemy is and, and start recognising that we are
42:49
many and they are few. And as Shelly said, we need to
42:53
rise like lions. I've often said that our enemies
42:56
are not those to our left and right, but those who are above
43:00
us. I.
43:01
Mean this that that is such a great point because because
43:04
those to our left and right are on are on our left and right
43:08
because they've because they and we have fallen for this paradigm
43:12
that we're somehow you know that that although we've got
43:16
different views that suddenly makes us somehow enemies and
43:18
therefore we've got to fight each other this this whole
43:23
people on my left and my right thing is something which has
43:25
been done to us it's it's. That's a good point, Mike.
43:29
Sorry, Yeah, I'm just jumping in there.
43:31
The the the the whole left right dichotomy has caused so many
43:36
issues. Yeah, because we fall for it
43:40
every time, you know? It's all about left wing or
43:44
right wing this. Yeah.
43:46
Well, well, look, the first step in my opinion, the first step to
43:49
to to objectivity here is to recognise that that left and
43:55
right is not a a straight line where you've got an extreme left
44:00
on one side, an extreme right on the on.
44:02
When you actually look at if you, if you look at what are
44:05
considered extreme left and extreme right regimes in the
44:09
last in history and we look at the behaviour of the those
44:14
regimes, you show me, you know, a fund a significant difference
44:19
in, in those regimes, whether they're extreme left or extreme
44:23
right. So we should be looking at this
44:25
so called left right spectrum as a circle with, with the extremes
44:30
joining because because there's very little to, to very little
44:37
difference to be seen in, in extreme left wing and extreme
44:40
right wing regimes that their behaviour is the same.
44:44
So, so we're not on a straight line and and we should, we
44:48
should recognise that being at the extremes is not necessarily
44:52
where we want to be. Yeah.
44:53
But Mike, the human condition, unfortunately, is such that you
44:57
have somebody like Donald Trump comes in and he's a bit of a pot
45:01
piper. He's very likeable in many ways,
45:04
which is what a populist does. He's he's good at being
45:08
likeable. And suddenly he brings millions
45:11
and millions and millions of people back into the system,
45:13
back into that, that binary way of thinking.
45:18
Which is why we're doomed to repeat this kind of situation
45:21
until we grow up. It's really that simple in my
45:24
mind. Well, on that note, but I mean
45:29
like I'm trying to, I'm still trying to establish, I know I
45:34
asked you this earlier, but I'm still stuck on this because I've
45:37
recently had this conversation with somebody close to me and I
45:41
don't know how to engage. I just don't know.
45:42
Do what do you do? Do you just be quiet and smile
45:45
and not or like I'm I'm trying to figure out because it always
45:50
becomes a heated argument and that goes no way.
45:54
Right. So, so well, this, this all this
45:57
is a a good point. This all depends on your view of
46:01
conversations like that. So I'm good to say to you that
46:05
there are times where I, in a gathering, for example, I hear
46:11
somebody saying something which is just so absolutely wrong.
46:15
And I know that it's wrong. And there are times actually,
46:18
I'm thinking, well, how do I, how do I communicate with this
46:21
person? And I actually don't know.
46:23
And so I stay silent and I don't know how to communicate with
46:26
that person. That's, that's an opportunity
46:29
for me to go away and consider, well, the next time that
46:32
situation arises, how am I going to deal with it?
46:34
How am I going to? And, and so that helps me learn
46:38
the same with the heated conversations because inevitably
46:42
there's going to be positions taken on either side of the
46:46
conversation that the other person doesn't know how to
46:49
respond to or doesn't have a response to other than to shout
46:54
a bit louder. And of course, once you start
46:56
shouting a bit louder, then you've you've effectively lost
46:59
the argument at that point. These are opportunities because
47:04
you know, what that says is that I have not considered that that
47:09
point before. And so I haven't got an answer
47:12
for it. And if I haven't got an answer
47:14
for something, then I've got to find an answer for it.
47:16
So, so that's a time to start thinking about, about that
47:19
particular point. And, and you know, in that's in
47:23
the process of doing that, if you do that, you're, you're
47:27
potentially adjusting your own position as well.
47:30
Because as I've said this many, many times, my view is, and I
47:34
try to do this as much as I can, my, my position on anything is
47:39
not fixed because I may not have all the evidence.
47:42
So I've drawn A conclusion, I've made an analysis, but, but it's
47:45
not actually a conclusion in the sense that it can't be changed.
47:49
So, you know, I, I think we should be always challenging our
47:53
own positions and our own precepts and, and, and the first
47:59
person that we should be arguing with is ourselves.
48:02
But these these conversations we have with other people where
48:05
we're left in exactly the situation you described, Jerm,
48:08
are conversations that we should be absolutely enthusiastic about
48:13
taking part in because they help us hone our our own skills and
48:19
our own arguments. Sharpening the sword?
48:23
Absolutely, Mike. OK, let's come in for a landing.
48:32
I guess the moral of the story is A to to try not take sides
48:41
other than that of what what it means to be human.
48:45
That's what that's your initial point.
48:47
And then also to try and not get into a heated debate with
48:55
somebody unless you're able to objectively as much as possible,
48:59
or rationally think about your own position and hold up the
49:03
mirror and challenge yourself at the same time so that you're
49:08
able to engage in a meaningful way, right?
49:11
Well, I mean, I'm not going to say don't, I'm not ever going to
49:13
say don't get involved in that. I mean, I, I actually would say
49:16
do get involved in those arguments because that's that's,
49:19
that helps, as I say, that helps hone your, your own position.
49:23
But yeah, I mean, I appreciate that that it's very, very
49:30
difficult to take an objective view on what's going on with
49:34
with some issues. But but look, the bottom line is
49:37
this germ the the countries in Southwest Asia, in North Africa,
49:45
in the Horn of Africa in state. Hang on, hang on, hang on, hang
49:49
on. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
49:50
Before you go any further, Southwest Asia is an interesting
49:52
term. A lot of people will say Gulf
49:54
States. That's what you're referring to,
49:56
right? No, I'm referring to the whole
49:58
Middle East region, which may include the Gulf states.
50:03
But but the what I was going to say there, what was I going to
50:08
say there? I'm so sorry.
50:10
I shouldn't have broken your train of thought, but it's that.
50:12
But that's an interesting idea, The Southwest Asia aspect, being
50:15
part of the Gulf states, that's something I didn't think about
50:18
until only a few months ago. Yeah, yes, sorry.
50:23
You, you, You said North Africa. Oh yeah, yeah, right, right.
50:28
My point was going to be if if we look objectively and
50:33
carefully at what's happened in those countries, at what's going
50:39
on in Sudan, I mean the the Sudan is another conflict which
50:41
is, which is basically flying under the radar at the moment.
50:47
We find tactics being used there by foreign influence, Britain,
50:53
the United States, EU, France, Germany, whatever it happens to
50:56
be, tactics being used to divide societies there which are
51:02
resulting in real physical combat, conflict and real death,
51:08
destruction, suffering, hunger. We need to, with respect to
51:16
Israel, Palestine and and Iran, and in fact the region as a
51:21
whole, we need, one of the things we absolutely need to do
51:25
is to take a step back, start looking at it objectively, look
51:29
at the tactics that are being used there.
51:32
And then make a comparison to what's going on in our own
51:37
countries with respect to immigration and the way that we
51:40
are being manipulated over around that narrative and how
51:45
close we already are to open civil conflict.
51:49
Not going to go as far as saying civil war at this point, but I
51:51
don't think it's too far away. This country, European
51:55
countries, even the United States in some way, some ways
51:58
are at boiling point on this issue.
52:01
And that has been, that is a created situation using very
52:06
similar tactics to have been used in the Middle East slash
52:09
Southwest Asia. We got to start recognising the
52:15
symptoms and trying to decide who what the cause of those
52:19
symptoms actually is. Otherwise we're going to find
52:23
ourselves in exactly the same position that those people are
52:26
in. And that this is, you know, the,
52:29
the old, it's a cliche. I know that the old saying, you
52:35
know, if you're unfamiliar with history, you're dimmed to repeat
52:37
it. This is really important.
52:40
I think one of the things that people need to do is to look
52:43
carefully at at how empires manage themselves and see the
52:51
parallels to what's going on today.
52:55
OK Mike from my half assed studio, I'll catch you.
53:01
I'll catch up with you next week.