Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Mike Novotny: Taboo Topics Pastors & Christians Avoid

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Mike Novotny: Taboo Topics Pastors & Christians Avoid · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

• 0:00
  Hey, friends, welcome to World View Matters. Today we're talking about things that Christians should be talking about, but are not.
• 0:07
  There's a new book out called Taboo. Hot button issues, dominating our culture, can make speaking out feel taboo.
• 0:16
  Hiding from hard conversations won't work. We need to know what God actually says about these issues and by looking to Scripture, we can find the answers. That's coming up next.
• 0:31
  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events, defending biblical Christianity. No topic, off limits.
• 0:43
  And now, here's your host, David Firazo.
• 0:48
  Welcome, friends. Thank you so much. Brand new book I mentioned called Taboo. Man, this is right up my alley because we talk about so many things that unfortunately a lot of pulpits in America are not addressing for whatever reason.
• 1:03
  Fear, don't want to lose a donor, a tither, a fear of what people are going to say or afraid of people, you know, not biblical, right?
• 1:13
  So we're going to talk about that today with our guest, Mike Novotny. He's a pastor, speaker and author with time of grace, ministries, brother in studio. Thank you. Welcome.
• 1:23
  Hey, thanks for having me, David. Yeah, so it's interesting. I want to tell the story to everybody because this we were going to do a Zoom recording.
• 1:32
  But we found out you were in Wisconsin. Yes. So I said, great. I'm excited, friends, because if you're in this Wisconsin area, Green Bay, Appleton area, I'm excited to learn of another good church I can recommend people go to.
• 1:45
  So Mike, before we get into your book taboo, which I love the title. And by the way, the subtitle topics, Christians should be talking about, but don't.
• 1:55
  Yeah, you've done a sermon series on a lot of these. Yeah, tell us about your background, because you, you've been in Appleton for a short time, you grew up in Green Bay. So give us the bullet point story about your background.
• 2:06
  Yeah. Yeah. So I'm a Wisconsin kid born 1980. So Genex millennial. Oh, my goodness, you just made me feel sorry. We're starting on the road.
• 2:16
  Yeah, married my first girlfriend, Kim. She's an Appleton native. So yeah, born just up the road here. And we got two teenage daughters Brooklyn and Maya in high school right now. I've been a pastor since 2007. So getting close to 20 years of ministry. And I've been here for about a decade in Appleton, preaching the gospel.
• 2:34
  You know, for being a pastor since 2007, you don't look tired. You don't look battle weary. So I don't know you're doing something right. But anyway, so I'm thankful for the, you know, someone got a hold of me about this book.
• 2:49
  Taboo, we talk about this all the time on world view matters. Yeah, not only what Christians should be doing, not just staying home and learning. We've become consumers, right.
• 3:00
  Taken teachings taken, but what are we doing outside of church walls Monday through Saturday? What are we doing in culture? Are we engaging? Are we talking about these things? Because our kids were raising a generation of Christian children that don't know how to respond to all the craziness, the chaos, the confusion, the delusion.
• 3:18
  Going on in our culture in the schools around the country. So give us a little rundown and overview before we dive into some of the details of your book taboo. Yeah.
• 3:29
  Yeah. So taboo is a book about anxiety, depression, suicide, abortion, abuse, sexual intimacy, homosexuality, transgenderism, race, politics, alcohol, divorce. And a few other things that make me sweat previously when I try to talk about them.
• 3:46
  But I think the heart of the book actually came out of my own story. So I was raised by my mom as a Christian. And I was all in from like the jump with Jesus. So I don't think in my whole life, I've missed two Sundays of church in a row.
• 3:59
  Wow. So I got a 40-some year street going. I got a fire for Jesus when I was in middle school, high school, great pastor up in Green Bay. I was reading my Bible, covered a cover, checking boxes.
• 4:11
  I was on fire for my W.J.D. bracelet in my senior pictures as a high schooler. But the whole time, David, I was addicted to pornography.
• 4:22
  I saw it when I was five, I think, in kindergarten and a magazine and a swimsuit issue, the internet comes out in the 90s. And so while I'm going to church and while I'm getting this calling into ministry and while I'm reading my Bible,
• 4:38
  I can't seemingly say no to the same sin. And I'm talking, if I could go two days without looking at porn, it was a good stretch for me.
• 4:48
  Wow. And I hated it and I repented of it. And if you ask me to this day, all these years later, to recite for you 1 Corinthians 6 or 1 Thessalonians 4 or Romans 1 or Matthew 5 or any sexual text, I could do it.
• 5:02
  But the one thing I did not do in all the praying and promising and reading and church attending was talk.
• 5:09
  I never told anyone. I didn't tell my pastor and my parents. I didn't tell my friends. I just thought, I kind of practiced reputation management that Jesus and I are going to do this together.
• 5:22
  And he's going to give me the strength. And through him, I can do all the things. But I wasn't talking.
• 5:27
  So for me, taboo, secondarily is about we have to address the issues in the culture because if we don't tell our people how to handle them with grace and truth.
• 5:36
  But primarily for me, we, even as followers of Jesus, have secrets and struggles and questions. And if we don't talk about these things at the dinner table or from the pulpit or in our church, we go on living in the same situation that I was.
• 5:51
  And I can remember one day just bottoming out where I seriously wondered if I was going to make it to heaven.
• 5:56
  Not because I denied the perfect life, sacrificial death or resurrection of Jesus.
• 6:01
  But I just thought, how could a real Christian commit the same sin so many times in a row?
• 6:06
  And so I want to talk about this that people can find hope and grace in Jesus and get back to the truth of God's word.
• 6:12
  Amen, brother. So a lot of people are asking that same question.
• 6:15
  The questions that you were asking and you before we got on the podcast, you just kind of gave it away. James 516, tell us about that scripture, how important that is.
• 6:25
  Yeah, I, I celebrate every April 24th because that was the day when I stopped keeping my secret.
• 6:32
  So when you told somebody I did friend, pastor, counselor, actually, counselor, yeah, who helped me just insane.
• 6:39
  And it wasn't like a light switch. I don't think sin works like that. Like I was never tempted again.
• 6:43
  But it was it, it was a dimmer switch that really moved for me and I experienced freedom and just stepped out into the light where God's people could help me forgive me and encourage me.
• 6:52
  So we've tried to really create in our ministry a huge culture of even if it's awkward, even if it's messy, even if you're in the middle of it, the best thing that you could do is talk about it.
• 7:03
  So the devil's the father of lies. And I think his most believable lie is.
• 7:10
  Don't just keep it quiet. Don't tell anyone about that. You'll do better next time because he knows once we bring it into the community of God's people where the Bible is open and the gospel is preached great transformation happens.
• 7:23
  Yeah. And that we don't go to that verse a lot and think of applying it to ourselves.
• 7:29
  Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another so that you may be healed.
• 7:35
  That's it. We always go to the second part of that. The effective, forever, righteous man can accomplish much, right?
• 7:40
  Yeah. But we forget the first half of that.
• 7:42
  Yeah. And that's so important. I'm taking that to heart as well. We all struggle with things. Confess your sins to one another.
• 7:48
  What does that look like practically? You said you shared with a counselor.
• 7:53
  Yeah. So with people in your church, I'm sure you talked to teens, young people or anyone that came to you as a pastor.
• 7:59
  And once they shared, confessed they were freed. Yeah.
• 8:04
  The struggle doesn't go away and the temptation doesn't go away. Yeah. But that is a huge step. Tell us more about that.
• 8:09
  Yeah. We try to create environments like that like in our small groups all the time where we are training people to practice.
• 8:16
  If you forgive someone their sins, they are forgiven.
• 8:19
  And so if I go out on a limb and tell you something, you could give me advice.
• 8:23
  You could say I'm going to pray for you. You could relate to me.
• 8:25
  But the best thing that we can do as Christians is to proclaim Christ to say Jesus died for that.
• 8:31
  And I love when people confess something embarrassing or shameful to just look them in the eye and say,
• 8:37
  you know God loves you, right?
• 8:40
  And David or people always say, yeah, yeah, yeah, I know.
• 8:43
  Like, no, no.
• 8:46
  You know that God knew about that. And because of the blood of Christ, he loves you right now.
• 8:50
  He likes you. He delights in you.
• 8:52
  And that's when it hits people. When you get past the like, yeah, yeah, technically God has to love me.
• 8:57
  But no, like the blood of Christ was so powerful. It cleanses us from all unrighteousness.
• 9:01
  So that God's face lights up in grace and mercy.
• 9:05
  So we just want to get back to like, let's not minimize sin and say, hey, we're only human and everyone struggles.
• 9:10
  That's not what we're doing.
• 9:12
  But we want to make sure if the gospel is front center, that this is the safest place in the world to be a sinner in the church.
• 9:18
  Yeah, because that's what Christianity is all about.
• 9:20
  So if you run from the church when you sin, that the church has done something wrong.
• 9:24
  Because the church, if you're hard-hearted and fair, sickle and judgmental, you should run.
• 9:30
  Because the church is going to come after you with the righteousness of God and repent of your self-righteousness.
• 9:34
  But if you're coming humble and broken, if God doesn't despise a contrite heart, why in the world would we?
• 9:39
  And so we're trying to do that in Sunday mornings and every day of the week.
• 9:42
  Wow.
• 9:43
  It's so refreshing to hear this because what you're talking about can be hard to apply.
• 9:47
  Yeah.
• 9:48
  And it is not the norm.
• 9:50
  It is the exception to the rule kind of, at least from my understanding what I've read about this.
• 9:55
  But I love what a couple of the lines here about the book.
• 9:58
  When we keep our struggles hidden, we often feel isolated and alone.
• 10:03
  And healing often begins with acknowledging and sharing our struggles.
• 10:08
  You talked a little bit about that.
• 10:09
  So we have a couple more minutes before we need to take a very brief pause.
• 10:13
  Let's jump down to one of the other topics in your book.
• 10:16
  But we talk about a lot on this program politics.
• 10:20
  Oh, yes.
• 10:21
  And so the question is, should we separate our faith from our politics?
• 10:27
  Yeah.
• 10:28
  Talk about another opportunity to apply our faith to our lives.
• 10:32
  Go ahead.
• 10:33
  Oh, I'm getting a phone call right now, David.
• 10:34
  Is that the kind of...
• 10:35
  Let's talk about politics in religion, right?
• 10:38
  Let's go and deep.
• 10:39
  The two taboo subjects in religion.
• 10:42
  Yeah.
• 10:43
  You know, this is so tricky, but this really struck me.
• 10:45
  Actually, after I wrote taboo, this came to me.
• 10:47
  So this isn't in the book.
• 10:49
  It never dawned on me.
• 10:50
  And maybe I'm just a dunt that when the Apostle Paul wrote the letter to the Romans,
• 10:56
  he was writing a very, very long letter.
• 10:58
  I think it's his longest in the whole New Testament to the people who lived in the Washington, D.C. of their day.
• 11:04
  In Rome, right?
• 11:05
  So Rome is the world's superpower.
• 11:07
  Yeah.
• 11:08
  And the political leaders who are running Rome are not exactly God-fearing Jesus-loving Christian faith promoting people.
• 11:15
  That's right.
• 11:16
  Paul writes Romans under the inspiration of the Spirit.
• 11:19
  Do you know how much time he spends talking about politics?
• 11:24
  One thirty-second of the book.
• 11:26
  Okay.
• 11:27
  So sixteen chapters in Romans.
• 11:28
  Right.
• 11:29
  Romans 13 versus one through seven.
• 11:30
  Yes.
• 11:31
  Romans 13 is famous.
• 11:32
  And do you know what comes right before that end of Romans 12 and right after that end of Romans 13?
• 11:37
  Long discourses on loving your enemies.
• 11:40
  If your enemy is hungry, give him something to eat.
• 11:42
  If he's thirsty, give him something to drink.
• 11:44
  Keep burning coals on his head so he would be ashamed of...
• 11:47
  Don't face evil with evil, but overcome evil with good.
• 11:50
  Yeah.
• 11:51
  Now transition, there's no break in the original text between 12 and 13.
• 11:54
  That's right.
• 11:55
  It's just one thing.
• 11:56
  No numbers.
• 11:57
  So I say, as modern Christians, I think that's a really wise balance for us.
• 12:01
  That there is a place for us to talk about justice, governing authorities, respect, obedience, the honor that if you owe taxes, pay taxes.
• 12:10
  These are by God's design, the structure that he's put over us.
• 12:13
  But if any version of that in Christianity divorces it from the love of enemies that overcomes evil with good, we've lost the original tone that Paul spoke to the Romans in.
• 12:24
  Hmm.
• 12:25
  That's good.
• 12:26
  Friends, I didn't give the website that you can actually go right to get the book.
• 12:31
  It's time of grace.store.
• 12:35
  Time of grace.store.
• 12:37
  And the book is called taboo.
• 12:39
  I'm looking at the front cover, politics, abortion, transgenderism, suicide, alcohol, divorce.
• 12:47
  You know, taboo topics, things that of all human beings, the Bible-believing Christian, the church should be talking about, warning about...
• 13:00
  Opening up the door for someone to come to share about their struggles.
• 13:04
  But we haven't done a great job of that.
• 13:07
  We've got just a minute before we have to take a brief pause.
• 13:10
  Let's talk briefly.
• 13:12
  Let me just hear you share a little bit about religious freedom as an issue, because the Apostle Paul used his citizenship.
• 13:19
  Yeah.
• 13:20
  And that's a politically...
• 13:21
  Oh, the Apostle Paul? No way.
• 13:23
  I appeal to Caesar.
• 13:25
  Yeah.
• 13:27
  My Apostle group is actually just finishing a study of Acts.
• 13:30
  Okay.
• 13:31
  And I've noticed so much Paul's savviness and wisdom in dealing with the political authorities.
• 13:36
  That he was so respectful of authority.
• 13:39
  Paul was not like dropping bombs because he was a Christian.
• 13:43
  Yeah.
• 13:44
  There's that really...
• 13:45
  Is it Acts 23 where he kind of talks back to the high priest and he gets slapped in the face.
• 13:50
  And he gets super fired up and then he finds out that's the high priest you just spoke to.
• 13:55
  And he immediately apologizes and said, you should not speak this way about God's ordained and anointed one.
• 14:02
  And yet at the same time, he's saying, I appeal to Caesar.
• 14:04
  Yeah.
• 14:05
  He's saying, is it okay for you to vlog a Roman citizen without a trial?
• 14:07
  So he has some backbone.
• 14:08
  He stood up for his rights.
• 14:09
  He's not just caving in because I'm a gentle Christian like Jesus.
• 14:12
  Right.
• 14:13
  He's strong, but he's respectful.
• 14:14
  Yeah.
• 14:15
  And he's like this walking little imitation of Jesus who is full of grace and truth at the same time.
• 14:20
  What a balance.
• 14:21
  And it's a good place to take a pause, brief pause here.
• 14:23
  We'll break back with Mike.
• 14:24
  I forgot how to say your last name, Novotni.
• 14:27
  Did I say it right?
• 14:28
  Perfect.
• 14:29
  Mike Novotni author of Taboo on World View Matters.
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• 15:41
  Our guest today, Pastor Mike Novotni author of the book, Taboo.
• 15:45
  So let's jump into this other one real quick.
• 15:47
  What I wanted to ask you about because a lot of people don't feel equipped.
• 15:50
  Maybe they aren't equipped.
• 15:51
  Maybe they are and they don't know it.
• 15:54
  Why do so many pastors?
• 15:57
  Because we've got problems in American pulpits.
• 15:59
  That's why culture looks the way it does.
• 16:01
  It reflects the church, right?
• 16:03
  And we see what's in our culture and what's going on.
• 16:06
  It doesn't look good.
• 16:08
  It doesn't look like there's a lot of Christian influence.
• 16:10
  So why do so many pastors avoid these quote unquote taboo topics?
• 16:15
  Why do you think, and is it that they don't feel equipped themselves?
• 16:19
  Or what are your thoughts?
• 16:20
  Yeah.
• 16:21
  I mean, I feel, I preach recently long sermons.
• 16:25
  So I get a good 40 minutes and so often when I was preaching a sermon on divorce, let's say.
• 16:32
  Or what does the Bible say about homosexuality?
• 16:35
  Or how to deal with anxiety?
• 16:37
  Or can you be saved if you commit suicide?
• 16:41
  It was so hard to give a comprehensive thorough and satisfying answer, even in a long sermon.
• 16:47
  So I'm not super quick to pounce on a pastor, the complexity of.
• 16:53
  If you talk about the sinfulness of homosexuality in the pulpit, you're going to have some people sitting right there
• 16:59
  who are going to just despair and say, I have prayed so much to change this.
• 17:03
  I can't, am I supposed to give up marriage and children?
• 17:07
  You're going to have other people saying, well, why would that be wrong if God created a person?
• 17:11
  And they didn't choose those desires.
• 17:13
  Another person would say, well, how can you judge someone for their sins when you're just a sinner?
• 17:18
  Then Jesus say in Matthew chapter 7.
• 17:20
  So I think one of the things I was really grateful for is that in taboo, we were able to spend not just a paragraph
• 17:27
  or a single message, but literally like four weeks in the pulpit on most of these subjects
• 17:33
  that we could really say, hey, if you're wondering about this or this or this or if you feel like this, that or this,
• 17:39
  we're going to address that question.
• 17:41
  And so I think it's a little bit of a commitment.
• 17:43
  Are you willing to take the quantity time that it takes to have a quality answer to these big burning questions that people have?
• 17:50
  Because they're not simplistic.
• 17:52
  I mean, we can talk about life and abortion when it begins from a biblical view.
• 17:57
  And then you have people who say, I'm pregnant from my abuse of husband.
• 18:02
  And I know what he does to me and our children.
• 18:04
  And now he's going to do this to another life. What do we do?
• 18:07
  So there's a depth and a complexity to almost all of these things.
• 18:10
  And I really want to avoid a simplistic answer that lacks compassion or realism.
• 18:15
  It's not that it changes what the truth is, but it just changes the tone and the way that we approach such things.
• 18:22
  So you mentioned suicide.
• 18:26
  We don't hear a lot about that.
• 18:29
  Why do you think that we are afraid to talk about that or address that?
• 18:34
  I can't remember honestly, and I've been around a lot longer than you.
• 18:39
  I can't remember a lot of sermons on suicide or mentioning suicide from a biblical perspective.
• 18:46
  Yeah, when I was going through Bible college, I had a professor who said suicide is a one way ticket to hell.
• 18:53
  People go to heaven repent and they believe in the forgiveness of Jesus.
• 18:57
  And if a person commits suicide, it's because they're unrepentant and they have let go of the love of God for them.
• 19:05
  I think that was a pretty common thing to believe.
• 19:07
  I hear that even a lot of people say, you know, he committed suicide, therefore automatically he's in hell.
• 19:13
  What a devastating thing to say.
• 19:16
  And I think that came out of a generation that didn't totally understand the darkness and confusion of depression.
• 19:22
  Not that I've ministered to people up close for 20 years.
• 19:26
  Sometimes you just see a true Christian just deeply struggling in the despair of a deep depression that makes a choice they can't take back.
• 19:35
  I have a pastoral colleague who was just in his living room one day, boom, gunshot from downstairs.
• 19:44
  He was running over to the staircase and who is stumbling up, clutching his own chest, but his son saying, I'm sorry, dad.
• 19:51
  I'm so sorry and dies in his arms.
• 19:54
  Oh my goodness.
• 19:55
  So, you know, that narrative, like only unbelievers who lack total faith in Jesus would take their own life.
• 20:04
  So, I've preached that message that there's forgiveness, even for struggling people like that.
• 20:08
  And then I've had parents say, my son is struggling with depression. Why would you say that?
• 20:12
  He's going to take his own life because he thinks it's a shortcut to get to heaven.
• 20:15
  Oh my goodness.
• 20:16
  I've had a mother break me a month ago saying, you said that suicide is a selfish thing because it hurts the people who are left behind.
• 20:23
  My daughter was not selfish.
• 20:25
  My daughter took her life and you're spitting on her grave.
• 20:28
  So, it doesn't matter what angle or what, I mean, you're going to offend somebody.
• 20:33
  Yeah, and so I think this is the reason why it's hard for parents that are dinner table to say something about sexuality or suicide or anxiety.
• 20:40
  Because it's so nuanced and complex, it really takes a commitment to like, I'm going to do my best.
• 20:45
  And if I get this wrong, if I trigger someone or say something the wrong way, I'm going to try to follow up and minister to them.
• 20:51
  But this is not like, check a box, repeat the passage, you did your job.
• 20:56
  Right.
• 20:57
  This takes I think a pastoral heart and a willing to go the long way for people.
• 21:02
  Well, I give you a lot of kudos for addressing this topic, suicide and other topics from the pulpit.
• 21:10
  I don't know that I would say, I don't know you well enough to say you're a courageous, a bold pastor.
• 21:15
  Maybe you are.
• 21:16
  It seems like just by addressing these things, it does take courage and that's got to come from God.
• 21:22
  You can't do this in your own flesh. You wouldn't want to because you might lose a congregant, a tither, a donor because you know that by addressing any one of these.
• 21:32
  I'm looking at the cover of your book, taboo, I'm looking at these things that are marked out and thinking, well, if you address any one of these, you might lose somebody.
• 21:40
  So you're obviously not concerned about that.
• 21:43
  We've got five minutes left.
• 21:45
  Right there, just tell me or tell our audience why.
• 21:50
  I mean, you've been a ministry for what, two decades.
• 21:53
  And I think it's rare to have that perspective that you know, you want to serve God.
• 22:00
  Maybe it's because you want His approval, like the Apostle Paul in Galatians 1-10.
• 22:05
  God's approval, not man's.
• 22:08
  And so you're not afraid to address these things. Share a little bit about that.
• 22:11
  Yeah, I think I've kind of learned on the other side of awkwardness is awesomeness.
• 22:16
  So, you know, with my own addiction, that was a story.
• 22:19
  It was really hard. I always picture it like a little hill and it's so hard to get up that hill.
• 22:24
  But on the other side is this like beautiful meadow that God has made for you and the other side of my confession.
• 22:29
  And I feel the same way about hard conversations.
• 22:31
  If I chicken out and if I bite my lip and if I'm a people pleaser, it's easier in the moment.
• 22:38
  And then you go home at night and you try to pray and you just know.
• 22:42
  I mean, God's hand is heavy upon you because who got into this thing to make humans happy?
• 22:49
  We got into this to make Jesus happy, you know, to serve Him faithfully.
• 22:53
  Pause right there just for a moment.
• 22:55
  That's so important. We have been kind of conditioned to pursue happiness rather than holiness.
• 23:01
  To please our flesh rather than to serve and be an ambassador for Jesus.
• 23:06
  Yeah. The Apostle Paul is at Galatians 110.
• 23:09
  You know, if I was into people pleasing, I would not be a servant of God.
• 23:12
  Yeah. Right. So it's a really good feeling.
• 23:15
  Even if someone walks away, even if they're mad, even if they leave the caps lock on in the comment section to know.
• 23:21
  I spoke the truth and I spoke in love.
• 23:24
  I didn't drop bombs like a self-righteous Pharisee.
• 23:27
  I tried to be as compassionate and understanding and to be quick to listen and slow to anger.
• 23:32
  And then I said what God said.
• 23:34
  And I didn't quote my words or my church's opinion.
• 23:36
  I just quoted the chapter in the verse.
• 23:38
  And I think if I can do those two things on the other side of the awkwardness,
• 23:41
  whether it's my own confession or a bold confrontation or a sermon about a taboo topic,
• 23:46
  it's just, you know, God is smiling on the work that you've done.
• 23:49
  Yeah.
• 23:50
  Oh, mom, forgive me. I'm smiling because I'm seeing this all the time.
• 23:53
  People leaving the caps lock on the comments.
• 23:56
  I'm going, oh, no, if you only knew how that comes off.
• 24:00
  But before we got on the podcast, you mentioned John chapter one.
• 24:04
  I refer to this a lot.
• 24:06
  People always, especially around Christmas, we know that the word became flesh and dwelt among us.
• 24:12
  But we forget that Jesus was and is the perfect balance of grace and truth.
• 24:18
  So take the last couple of minutes. Just share your heart on that.
• 24:21
  Yeah. I love that.
• 24:22
  I think it's really easy in our culture, which is so divided intense to pick grace or truth.
• 24:29
  You know, I'm a really gracious person. I'm kind. I'm accepting.
• 24:32
  I'm tolerant.
• 24:33
  But I'm ashamed, honestly, of what the Bible says.
• 24:36
  I think that's an easy path.
• 24:38
  I think I believe the Bible.
• 24:40
  Those people are the, I think you God that I'm not like other sinners.
• 24:43
  It's like Luke 18, the Pharisee.
• 24:45
  It's easy to be self-righteous.
• 24:47
  And I think for those of us who love the Bible and have conservative values,
• 24:51
  I think that's our temptation.
• 24:52
  Yeah.
• 24:53
  We're right. You're wrong.
• 24:55
  And the Apostle Paul who thought he was the worst sinner in the room,
• 24:58
  we haven't thought that thought in a long time.
• 25:00
  So it's easy to choose between truth person or grace person.
• 25:04
  But what I love about Jesus is that he was both.
• 25:07
  I mean, he was the most humble person in the room who laid down his life in the cross.
• 25:10
  And he would call out Peter and his disciples and the Pharisees and the leaders and Pontius Pilate.
• 25:17
  So he was so courageous and bold and yet he cared about people so much and he humility.
• 25:21
  And I think to be a Christian is to be a little Christ.
• 25:24
  Is to receive his perfection and his forgiveness and then do our best in this really complicated world
• 25:29
  to try to not be either or but full of grace and truth at the same time.
• 25:33
  Grace and truth.
• 25:35
  Truth is part of our tagline here.
• 25:37
  And I can relate to the one that would say God's Word says it, that settles it.
• 25:43
  No, I believe it. That settles it whatever.
• 25:46
  But the grace, the compassion we're dealing with with human beings,
• 25:50
  this struggle just just like all of us do and if we're willing to admit that.
• 25:56
  We've got just one minute left.
• 25:58
  Share the best way to get the book.
• 26:01
  Is it on the, see, it's on the time for grace, time of grace website.
• 26:05
  Is that the best place?
• 26:06
  Yeah, you can find the book on Amazon.
• 26:08
  Amazon too.
• 26:09
  All of our resources at time of grace, that O.R.G.
• 26:11
  And it's Mike Novotny.
• 26:13
  That's it.
• 26:14
  So Wisconsin, I threw and threw my goodness.
• 26:17
  It's such a pleasure to meet you.
• 26:19
  Did I tell that story at the very beginning?
• 26:22
  Yes, I did.
• 26:23
  Because originally Mike was going to do this via Zoom.
• 26:26
  Because I connect with people all around the country.
• 26:28
  I got the pastor and Ireland pastor in Australia.
• 26:31
  Guests from different continents.
• 26:32
  And Mike's right here in Wisconsin.
• 26:34
  And we were going to do this by Zoom until about four hours ago.
• 26:37
  And I said Mike, I just read in your bio, you're, you know, you're local.
• 26:41
  So it's so good to have you come in studio brother.
• 26:44
  Any closing thoughts other than, you know, I know the resurrection Sunday is coming up.
• 26:48
  You've got about 30 seconds if you'd like to just encourage our viewers.
• 26:52
  Yeah, I would just love to say if you're struggling with something that feels taboo
• 26:56
  and you're embarrassed and ashamed, learn from my mistake.
• 26:59
  And don't spend the next month or year or decade in secrecy and in silence.
• 27:04
  Step into the light.
• 27:06
  Tell someone that can point you to the cross.
• 27:08
  Pray for you and help you find healing.
• 27:10
  Amen. Great place.
• 27:12
  Great way to wrap this up friends.
• 27:15
  Oh, I'm just so blessed every single time.
• 27:18
  Every single guest I get to talk to it encourages me, inspires me.
• 27:21
  And we need that to keep going, right?
• 27:24
  Well, God bless you friends.
• 27:25
  Keep sharing the podcast.
• 27:26
  Thanks for your prayers.
• 27:27
  And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.
• 27:30
  Amen.