Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / CLARITY Act vs DeFi🚨Amanda Tuminelli INTERVIEW🔥

Transcript

CLARITY Act vs DeFi🚨Amanda Tuminelli INTERVIEW🔥 · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Clarity Act could be incoming today. We're going to break
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: it down with an expert that I think you guys
• 0:04
  Speaker 1: will like. It is going to be an awesome one,
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• 0:35
  Speaker 1: there's a lot happening between now and January fifteenth, which
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: is when we will see a dual markup stage in
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: the Clarity Act. And of course what to expect from
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: DC is the real question mark. I'm watching this closely
• 0:49
  Speaker 1: because there are a lot of unusual characters in DC
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: right now. We don't really know for sure what does
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: this mean. I was looking at this one that kind
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: of broke down a whole list and where was the
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: US Senate voting record on the Genius Act. And I'll
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: just showcase this a little bit before we bring our
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: guests on, and you guys can screenshot this right here,
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: so you can kind of see who is voting in
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: your area right there. That kind of gives you a
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: little bit of understanding of what's happening in DC. Where
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: are getting ready to happen in DC around the Clarity Act.
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: So we wanted to bring on Amanda Tuminelli, who is
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: coming in from the DeFi Education Fund. She's been on before. Amanda,
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: Welcome back, Thanks for having me. So I see that
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: you guys, of course are very active in DC, and
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: of course you're in the position right now to educate
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: not only Congress, but I think a lot of people
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: around how DeFi is really a good thing for blockchain
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: going forward. When you look at the current status of
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: the Clarity Act, why do you think it has taken
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: so long? Has it just been timing with what's going
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: on in Congress right now with other bills? What has
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: been the hold up?
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I actually think is being made on a relatively
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: quick pace right having a committee markup next week after
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: we saw a draft a few months ago, is actually
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: a sign of progress, a sign that we're moving towards
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: potentially seeing a final bill for a vote.
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: Listen, I had Warren Davidson on earlier this week and
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: we got into some of the details on this. Obviously,
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: this gets into the whole idea around self custody and
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: KYC some of the things he kind of champions. When
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: you look at the compromises that could be made on
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: these markups going to where it would get to a
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: vote and then eventually to Trump's desk, Is there anything
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: there that you're concerned about, especially in the area of
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: KYC and self custody.
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those are actually some of the key issues that
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: we are focused on at d and I think for
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: anybody who is an advocate for TFI, we want to
• 2:52
  Speaker 2: make sure as Representative Davidson has very well clearly articulated
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: that self custody is protected for all Americans. Should not
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: be unreasonable securities regulation or unreasonable commodities regulation that results
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: in people not being able to self custody their own assets. Similarly,
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: we want to make sure that this bill doesn't treat
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: software developers who never take custody or control over anybody
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: else's assets as if in are financial institutions. So that
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: really is like the underlying premise on everything that we
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: focus on in the bill. Making sure that decentralized technology
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: and software developers are not treated as if they are
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: centralized operators of financial institutions would okay.
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: So with that being one of the cornerstones of how
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: clarity could get through, do you think it's possible that
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: we could still see this bill passing in the first
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: quarter of this year?
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: I definitely think it's possible.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: I think that a lot is going to ride on
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: the next week or two because we have a Bank
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: and Committee markup scheduled for the fifteenth, so that's next week,
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: and the Agriculture Committee is also saying that they're going to.
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: Mark up next week.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: So if we have both of those markups and we
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: get to a draft text, right and a lot of
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: us still have not seen the full bail or actually,
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: I don't think anyone's really publicly seen the full bill.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: So until we see that with full comprehensive understanding of
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: how they are treating defied technology and software developers, we
• 4:19
  Speaker 2: just don't know how quickly this can proceed. People are
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: trying to learn as they legislate, and I think that's really.
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: Tough to do.
• 4:29
  Speaker 2: So it's definitely possible, but we do have a little
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: we do have more work to do.
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: I'd say, Okay, what would be your statement here when
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: you get into banks and the initiative that they have
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: put underway, all the lobby groups that are really pushing
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: hard to essentially take away the yields for stable coins,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: and when you look at that being one of the
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: critical aspects of the Genius Act, is there any way
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: that this could actually come into clarity where the stable
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: coin yields could be at risk?
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: One of the hotly debated topics right now. The Genius Act,
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: which was which is past law, past legislation right as
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: of July, and that was bipartisan full vote. That is
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: the law Genius only said that issuers cannot give rewards
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: to users, right and it left openness of possibility that
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: third parties can give rewards and yield to users. So
• 5:26
  Speaker 2: the law right now is that right now the banks
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: are trying to reopen that topic and trying to reopen
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: settled law to ban third parties from giving rewards to
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: users or giving yield to users.
• 5:39
  Speaker 3: So they are.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: Making this an issue when the status quo is actually that.
• 5:44
  Speaker 3: Third parties can issue rewards to users.
• 5:46
  Speaker 2: So I do think that continues to be a topic
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: of debate because it's very important to everyone, to users
• 5:52
  Speaker 2: who want to receive those rewards, and to the companies
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: in crypto who want to reward their users. It's really
• 5:58
  Speaker 2: important across the board.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: This.
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: Of course, if anything like this actually were come to reality,
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: this is going to put a lot of people back
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: into the zone of DeFi wallets. I mean, we've seen
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: this with the slush project with SWI. You look at
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: that along with others out there that have kind of
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: gone in this direction around DeFi. Do you think that
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: would create just an absolute mass exodus because I think
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: the banks are concerned that people are going to exit
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: their their deposit accounts and go into coinbase or Kraken
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: or Robbin or wherever. But they may do this with
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: DeFi anyway. So I don't understand what the logic is.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: What's the presentation from what you're hearing from the lobbyist
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: on the banking side of this, Why would it matter?
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: So my understanding is that the banks are arguing exactly
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: as you just said, that there's going to be flight
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: risk from banking institutions. I really think that that is
• 6:58
  Speaker 2: a distraction from the actual issue, which is that banks
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: are worried about their incumbency, right. They want to protect
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: their ability to have the largest volume within their institutions.
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: So the fact is that users are.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Choosing to use self custody while it's use crypto regardless.
• 7:17
  Speaker 3: That is the future.
• 7:18
  Speaker 2: I think that's where we're going, regardless of any of
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: these rules. So I really think that they're fighting a
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: losing battle, but they may do enough to hold up
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: market structural legislation, and it really would be a shame
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: if digital asset market structural legislation is held up because
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: traditional finance are the ones that are making it impossible
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: to get through.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Well, okay, you say that, and then Citadel puts out
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: a report that completely got defied wrong. I mean, this
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: is Citadel and we're talking Ken Griffy here. You put
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: out a tweet Citadel got it wrong. Here, Explain to
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: me what the problem was that you guys found within this.
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: What was so imperative that said, hey, we got to
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: get people aware of this.
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'm really glad you raised it because I
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: think that more people need to understand what's actually happening here.
• 8:07
  Speaker 2: So many traditional financial institutions are putting in letters or
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: advocating for a position that is not sound, that is
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: not actually based in the law, which is that even
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: non custodial, non controlling developers should be forced to register
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: as securities brokers and securities exchanges. And what Citadel argued
• 8:27
  Speaker 2: in their letter is that vast swaths of the DeFi ecosystem,
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: from non custodial wallet developers all the way to exchange
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: operators should all have to register as securities brokers or exchanges.
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: And they make this argument based on their view of
• 8:44
  Speaker 2: the securities laws. But I would note that Chair Atkins
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: and Commissioner Purse have made a lot of statements recently
• 8:50
  Speaker 2: that make it clear that Citadel's position is not aligned
• 8:53
  Speaker 2: with the SEC's own position.
• 8:55
  Speaker 3: Of securities law.
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: The SEC has made it clear that they believe that
• 8:59
  Speaker 2: decentralized sys should be treated separately from centralized systems, and
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: they understand that difference in the technology. So our letter
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: wrote back to clarify how the technology actually works and
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: to correct the record on some of the citations a
• 9:14
  Speaker 2: Citadel offered that were not fair citations of our own
• 9:17
  Speaker 2: work and the other people who signed our letter.
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: Five years ago, I went to d C, had a
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: chance to meet with some people in Congress. There were
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: almost zero lobby firms out there pushing for crypto. Okay,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: and now you go back five years later and it
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: is absolutely inundated. We're seeing lobby firms all around. You
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: just mentioned one with the Salana Foundation. We've got coinbase
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: and all of the banking committees that have lobbyists in there.
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Who is defending the people outside of you guys, I
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: mean on the DeFi side versus the corporate side of crypto.
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: Who is Is there anybody else we should be talking
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: to to kind of spread the word here?
• 10:00
  Speaker 2: Well, I do think the trade associations like the Blockchain
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Association and Crypto Council for Innovation and the Digital Chamber
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: and organizations like Salana Policy Institute and coin Center are
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: actually pushing for users right, They are also pushing for
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: users of crypto and people building it. So I do
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: think that together we are speaking with a united voice
• 10:21
  Speaker 2: and saying that we want market structural legislation that makes
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: sense for the industry. But to your point, there have
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: been more there has been an expansion in these policy efforts,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: and I think that's because we're seeing more opposition from
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: traditional financial actors and getting this done. So you know,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: you have the rise to meet the challenge.
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I'm always concerned because you know, when I
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: go to these events, what I see mostly is corporate
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: This is the area that I think is a blind
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: spot to d C. They know very little about it
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: and really how it even works and whether or not
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: it could even be regulated is the real question. Of course,
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: cha Atkins, you have already mentioned there understands that I
• 11:02
  Speaker 1: think that's at least a good thing from the SEC side.
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: I want to get into a couple other things within Clarity.
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: Within the Clarity Act, there is a stipulation that would
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: get into the potential if you want to become fully
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: decentralized of you having to burn tokens if you're an organization.
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: Is that going to happen? Do you think we're going
• 11:21
  Speaker 1: to see companies out there actually do that to become
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: more decentralized.
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: Oh so yeah, you know, I'm not sure about that.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know if because like we said, the length,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: we haven't seen the final text, and I think what
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: you're referring to as part of the token classification section
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: of the bill, which explains how a token issuer can
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: release a token compliantly and whether the token should be
• 11:43
  Speaker 2: treated as a network token or a digital commodity or
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: whatever it's going to be. That part of the bill
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: is definitely still still under work, like they're still working
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: on it, and I think when we see text on Monday,
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: I'll have a better answer to your question.
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, we'll definitely get there. One thing I'm
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: what I'm watching is the potential that if that were
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: to come into the text, we could see companies like
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Ripple getting out there to where with they might in
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: fact want to go out there and burn tokens and
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: become more decentralized. So I'm watching that very closely. Do
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: you think all right, so there's some concessions. I talked
• 12:18
  Speaker 1: about this with Warren Davidson and he actually said the
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: words that I was thinking and asking the question point blank.
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: I said, do you think that maybe the Democrats would
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: go ahead and agree and get into a more partisan
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: approach to clarity if the Trump token was kind of
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: thrown on the altar as an opportunity saying, hey, Trump's
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: got to get out of the mean cooin business. Do
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: you think Trump would do that? Do you think he'd
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: allow that to occur?
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: I don't know. That's a hard question.
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: I think that this bill, you know well, ethics and
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: whether any member of the government can even have a
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: token is definitely still being talked about, and I think
• 12:59
  Speaker 2: it's just it's an open question right now as to
• 13:01
  Speaker 2: where that's going to end up.
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: All right, So within that, obviously that boils down to
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: one last thing if that were to happen. Do you
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: think Trump would sign the bill if it actually came through.
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: I really don't like hypotheticals. I hope in a position
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: to speculate as to what the President's going to do,
• 13:21
  Speaker 2: I really don't know. I really think that my White
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: House has been clear in being motivated that they want
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: market structure legislation to happen. I know that obviously President
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: Trump has been moving this forward and telling members of
• 13:33
  Speaker 2: Congress to keep working and make sure that this gets
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: done as soon as possible. So I do think that
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: they are pushing for progress. And that's all I have
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: heard is that they want the stead get done.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: For our audience, I'll show you guys, this right here,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: which is that there is some Trump tokens on the move.
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: So maybe there is some scenario playing out here where
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: this might be a little bit of a sacrificial lamb
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: going into this bill. I don't know. I'm just saying, guys,
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: I follow where things are going in the market and
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: how these blockchains are moving around, so we'll see how
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: that plays into it. A couple other points I wanted
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: to hit on a credit investor rules. Do you think
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: they'll be next?
• 14:15
  Speaker 3: You know, I mean it's possible.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: The SEC has a aggressive agenda, that is, and they're
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: moving quickly. I think the Crypto Task Force has been
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: really making a lot of forward progress, and I do
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: think we're going to see rule making very soon. I'm
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: actually really hopeful that what we're going to see before
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: we get there is a general innovation exemption, which Chair
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Atkins has teased in the past right a way that
• 14:38
  Speaker 2: people can understand what their obligations are when they're creating
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: tokens or when they're decentralizing.
• 14:44
  Speaker 3: So I really think we're going to get rules very soon.
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: I don't know if a credited investor will happen right away,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: but it's obviously an area that we are focused on
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: and that many other people care about deeply.
• 14:54
  Speaker 1: What about the diminimus tax? Do you feel that's something
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: that might make its way through Congress?
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: So there recently was a tax bill proposed, and I
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: think it has the like good aims. I think the
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: goals there are good, and I think that it is
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: possible we.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: Will see that.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: So the bill was introduced in December twenty twenty five,
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: and it actually aims to eliminate excessive tax on routine
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: customer transactions. So I think that we might see that
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: move in the next few months, but I know that
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: that is actively being worked one at this moment.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: All right, I guess just a couple more questions in
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: reference to what's happening right now at the FED and
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: also at the SEC. All of this is aligning somewhat
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: with Trump's administration. You look at what, of course Paul
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Atkins has been able to do at the SEC already.
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: But if Trump were to not make it through and
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: a Republican administration doesn't get revoted in, could we see
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: Gary Gensler come back in as an SEC chair? The devil?
• 15:57
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: Not even what a what a concerning thought? I had
• 16:02
  Speaker 2: not even considered that possibility. No, I do think that
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: for the next three years, I think it's clear that
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: we're going to have a productive chair and a productive Commission. Obviously,
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: if the administration changes, then the makeup of the Commission
• 16:18
  Speaker 2: will change. My hope is that we will actually get
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: some clear rules in place, and maybe you know, some
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: clear law in place as well that would confine the
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: ability of.
• 16:29
  Speaker 3: The SEC to go backwards. Right.
• 16:31
  Speaker 2: That's why market structure is so important, because it will
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: be permanent statutory fixes that no matter who ends up
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: being the SEC chair will control what the SEC can do.
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, before I get into the topic on social because
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at this as a regulatory framework because we
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: could see payments also the moves in Japan. They've got
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: a flat tax underway right now. I know, Congress, I've
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: talked to several Congress with people who are watching what's
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: going on in Japan. Do you think this is something
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: that DC is paying attention to how other countries are
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: treating crypto right now in their decision making process for
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: this Clarity Act.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: I do think that they're paying attention.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: I think the US wants to lead on this stuff, right,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: I think we want to be able to be the
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: standard and set a standard as to how digital assets
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: are going to be treated. And you know, Europe has MIKA,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: so they kind of got out in front of us
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: a little bit. They already have a market structural legislation
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: in place, So I think the US wants to move
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: quickly and be a leader here. So I'm sure they're
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: paying attention, and that's why people are working so hard
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: to get this done as soon as possible.
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: One other thing that I'm looking at right now is
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: social media. This was a post by Vitallic. He's kind
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: of talked about the the birth of the Internet and
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: that you know, you know, these people who are kind
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: of creating this is all good. The question is is
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: social media the next regulatory frontier? What do you think
• 17:53
  Speaker 1: you think we'll start, especially as we see transactions going
• 17:56
  Speaker 1: through it.
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's a good question because this actually
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: comes to brings to mind some of the arguments that
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: we're hearing out of traditional finance. Right if you want
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: to take the position that a front end like a
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: mere user interface can be regulated as the securities intermediary,
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: well then that has a really broad application. Right then
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: that applies to browsers, right, ye, browser great, So it
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: really right. The implications of that argument are really concerning.
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: So I think that's why it's so important the work
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: that we're doing right now, which is to cabin these broad,
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: sweeping define definitions and make sure that they clearly only
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: applied to what they were meant to apply to when
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Congress passed the securities laws. So that should prevent scope creep, right,
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: prevent them these definitions from creeping out into other areas.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: Is there a line in the sand for all the
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: lobbyists that are pro crypto in DC that Congress cannot cross,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: Whether it's KYC, self custody, the banks, you know, pulling
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: the the you know, the Trump card on earning it
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: interest on stable coins, anything that you would say this
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: is the no go zone.
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: Well, I'll only speak for my organization. I could tell
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: you from my organization, our line is making sure that
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: software developers are protected.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: That is where we will draw the line.
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: So ensuring that developers are treated fairly, not subject to
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: unfair securities regulation and commodities regulation, and that they're not
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: treated as money transmitters when they're not money transmitters, and
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: that self custody is protected. Those are our red lines.
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: That's where we will hold those lines. But I will
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: say that the committee staff working on this have been
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: really respectful of these issues and understand those issues and
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: are also i think, on the same page with us
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: as how as to how important they are.
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure, Amanda, Hey, this has been great thing.
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: I feel a little bit more clear on this, and
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: I'm actually even after talking to Congressman Davidson, I felt
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: a little bit like he was backpedaling in the sense
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: of saying he felt like they were a little pressure.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: But I think he was sandbagging. That's what I think
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: he was doing, was sandbagging on the show, thinking don't
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: expect too much, and then they go, hopefully we'll get
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: a delivery of the clarity ec But thank you so
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: much for coming in today. We appreciate it.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: Thanks for having me.
• 20:21
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• 20:24
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• 20:27
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