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Tears and Triumph: Tom Verducci's World Series · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings alongside Chet West. I'm
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Thad Levine. In our continued effort to take you behind
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: the scenes in the worlds of sports, we are very
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: fortunate today to be joined by Tom Verducci. Tom is
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: one of the most respected voices and premier storytellers in
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: modern sports journalism. A senior writer for Sports Illustrated for
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: over three decades and a lead analyst for Fox Sports
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: and MLB Network, Tom has helped craft the narrative of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: every major era of modern baseball. He's a four-time National
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Sports Hall of Fame Sportswriter of the Year, a National
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: Emmy Award winner, and the best-selling author of classics like
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: The Yankee Years and The Cubs Way. Tom artfully balances
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: a respect for the history of the game with a
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: sharp analytical mind and an insatiable intellectual curiosity about what
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: will form the future cutting edge of baseball. In addition
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: to all those accolades, Tom has two sons, one of whom, Ben,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: attended and played baseball at Haverford College. And with that said,
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: and as a former Haverford College player as well, Tom,
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: welcome to Rosters to Rings.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: Thanks, and congratulations. You read that exactly the way that
• 1:09
  Speaker 2: I wrote that for you.
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: Maybe I should have been even more grandiose than that. Tom,
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: one of our traditions here on Rosters to Rings is
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: we ask each person who comes on What is their
• 1:21
  Speaker 1: sports passion origin story? The one thing that ties us
• 1:24
  Speaker 1: all together is that when we were younger, we fell
• 1:26
  Speaker 1: in love with sports. And how did you fall in
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: love with sports as a kid?
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question because I can't remember a
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: time where I wasn't in love with sports. My parents
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: tell me stories about when I was just old enough
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  Speaker 2: to walk, watching games on the TV. And back then
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: we had those big console TVs that sat on the
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: floor and I would put four pillows out as the bases.
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: And when the batter hit the ball, I would run
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: around the bases multiple times, by the way. But it
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: really stems from the fact that my dad was a
• 1:55
  Speaker 2: high school football and baseball coach. So I was lucky
• 1:58
  Speaker 2: enough to grow up like inside the game. And most
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: people become fans of the game from the outside. I
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: became a fan of the game from the inside. And
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: I always thought that was an advantage for me. And
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: most importantly of all, I saw that he was doing
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: something that he loved to do. And that was always
• 2:13
  Speaker 2: my goal in life to do turn your passion into
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: your vocation. And for me, it was writing and it
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: was sports. And I've been lucky enough to do that.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Tom, speaking of that, you really have spanned a lot
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: of different medium over your career. You started out as
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: a beat writer at Newsday. You became more of a
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: long story form teller at Sports Illustrated. And now you
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: are one of the foremost TV analysts through Fox Sports
• 2:37
  Speaker 1: and MLB Network. I'm just curious, as you've evolved through
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: those stages of your career, One thing that has remained
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: constant is your relationships with players, with coaches, with front
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: office executives, with the commissioner's office. How have you maintained
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: those relationships as things have evolved over your career?
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: In one word, it's curiosity. I love the game, and
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: as much as I love it and I think I
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: know about it, there's so much to learn about it.
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: And I think when you're driven by curiosity, and if
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: you talk about any great reporter, and it doesn't have
• 3:08
  Speaker 2: to be baseball, it could be any sport, it could
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: be a political beat. you have to be curious. You
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: have to be able to ask questions and want to
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: understand the whys, not just for the story that you're
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: working at that particular time. But for me, I may
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: see something in a game and just go up to
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: a coach, a player, a manager and say, hey, explain
• 3:28
  Speaker 2: this to me or what really happened here. And I'm
• 3:32
  Speaker 2: not turning that into a story. And I tell this
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: to young journalists all the time. It's so important to
• 3:38
  Speaker 2: connect with people, which means A lot of times it's
• 3:41
  Speaker 2: a one-way street. When you're the business of journalism, you're
• 3:44
  Speaker 2: looking for something from your subjects, right? You're always going
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: to them with questions and you want quotes, you want information.
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: But the way you get that is building trust by
• 3:57
  Speaker 2: sometimes just keeping the microphone off, you know, closing the
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: notebook and just conversing with people and connecting with them
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  Speaker 2: so that it becomes a two-way street. It's like a
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  Speaker 2: great A broadcast to me is one that sounds conversational.
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  Speaker 2: And I think it's the same way when you connect
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  Speaker 2: with the subjects that you're covering is that there's a
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  Speaker 2: human connection there. It's not just, well, that's a player
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  Speaker 2: and I'm a journalist. There's a big wall between us
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  Speaker 2: and we have to really honor that kind of paradigm.
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  Speaker 2: whereas it doesn't have to be that way. I really
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  Speaker 2: encourage young journalists to make connections with the people that
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  Speaker 2: they cover. It doesn't mean you have to be buddy, buddy,
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  Speaker 2: and best friends. I'm not talking about that, but I'm
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  Speaker 2: just talking about showing a real human curiosity in people
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  Speaker 2: and what they do besides what's the score of the
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: game and what pitch did you hit.
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  Speaker 1: Tom, I just would say from my perspective on the
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  Speaker 1: front office side, it's exactly the same, which is You
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: have a choice to make. Are you having transactional relationships
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  Speaker 1: or full body deep relationships? And the transactional ones will
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: only get you so far. So if when you're negotiating,
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  Speaker 1: you view this as you want to vanquish your foe
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: and you want to win the deal, like be careful
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  Speaker 1: what you want. You're going to win it in the
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  Speaker 1: short term. You're going to lose it in the long term.
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  Speaker 1: All of these jobs, whether it's sitting in your seat
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  Speaker 1: or my seat, are based inherently on the ability to
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  Speaker 1: do business with everyone in the game. And from your
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  Speaker 1: perspective is talking to every player and every coach and
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: every front office person. For me, it was talking to
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: every agent, every front office person. And if you narrow
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  Speaker 1: that field based upon reducing these relationships to transactions, then
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden you have to look your owner
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  Speaker 1: in the eye and say, well, we can only deal
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: with these 10 clubs and this one third of agents.
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: And at that point, he probably should say, I'm going
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: to need to relieve you of your duties because that's
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  Speaker 1: narrowing the field to the point where we can't be
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  Speaker 1: competitive anymore.
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: I agree, and I think getting back to the curiosity part,
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  Speaker 2: the best advice I ever got probably is I did
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  Speaker 2: a story with Vin Scully in his last year with
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: the Dodgers, and I was, like everybody else, just amazed
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: that Vin, after 46 years or how many years it was,
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: was still the best in the business. I mean, he
• 6:08
  Speaker 2: had lost nothing off his fastball doing it for so long.
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  Speaker 2: You think about all the games that he covered and
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: the things that he's seen. Uh, and there was always
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: wonder in his voice and describing a game, you know,
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: even a quote unquote meaningless game in July. So I
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: asked him, how the heck do you do that? You know,
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: how do you keep so fresh all these years? Uh,
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: and the phrase that he used was it's the humility
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: to prepare and the confidence to pull it off. The
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: front part of that, I really resonated with me, the
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  Speaker 2: humility to prepare. It's knowing what you don't know, even
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: when you're Vin Scully and you can rest on your laurels.
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  Speaker 2: You approach a game like you're doing your first game.
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  Speaker 2: You do all the prep work. 90% of it is
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: never going to get on there, but you're prepared to
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  Speaker 2: go where that game goes in any direction. So I
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  Speaker 2: always love that phrase. And the confidence to me is
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  Speaker 2: something that everybody has to have. We all have mentors.
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  Speaker 2: We all rely on people who boost us, give us
• 7:01
  Speaker 2: opportunities and enthusiasm. But at some point, there's got to
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: be that inner compass in you that says, I can
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  Speaker 2: do this. And For me, especially with television, it was
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: nothing I wanted to do when I started out. I
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: had to work towards that to build up that confidence
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  Speaker 2: to convince myself that, hey, I can do this.
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  Speaker 3: Tom, as a fan of the game, I've seen you
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  Speaker 3: on TV. I've seen all your work. It's wonderful. I'm
• 7:26
  Speaker 3: always curious, people in your position, you guys get to
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  Speaker 3: interface with some people that we don't in ways that
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: we see them out in the press. We see them
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: On television, are they really who they are? You've co-authored
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: books with Joe Torre, Joe Madden. I mean, I was
• 7:45
  Speaker 3: a Cub fan. I've been a Cub fan for the
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: last 30, 35 years. I lived right there in Wrigleyville,
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: right outside Wrigley Field. And I've always been so curious
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: about Joe Madden. And then, I mean, Joe Torre, never
• 7:56
  Speaker 3: a huge Yankees fan, but obviously curious. He's been, you know,
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: at the top of the game for quite a while.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: What's In co-authoring those books, in that collaborative process, what's
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  Speaker 3: one thing maybe you learned about each of those managers
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  Speaker 3: that maybe fans like me might want to know?
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  Speaker 2: In a word, honesty. They probably got in trouble sometimes
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  Speaker 2: with their own front offices because neither one is able
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  Speaker 2: to skirt the truth. They're just genuine people. I'll tell
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  Speaker 2: you a quick story. When I was doing the Yankee
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  Speaker 2: years with Joe Torre, there was actually, this is going
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  Speaker 2: back a ways, There was a little altercation, not a
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: physical fight, but an altercation on the bus between George
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: Steinbrenner and Reggie Jackson on the bus. They're going to
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: the airport after a game. So in interviewing Joe for
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: the book, we were talking about this incident. And I said, well, Joe,
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  Speaker 2: how do you want to handle this story about the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: boss getting in a fight with Reggie? He says, what
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  Speaker 2: do you mean, handle it? I'll tell you what happened.
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  Speaker 2: I thought he was going to sugarcoat it, soft pedal it.
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  Speaker 2: And that's just not who he is. So I think
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  Speaker 2: in both cases, I'm big on what people's intentions are.
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  Speaker 2: And a lot of people sometimes have hidden agendas that
• 9:09
  Speaker 2: you find out later on about. I think in both cases,
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  Speaker 2: these people come with pure intentions. And again, sometimes they
• 9:15
  Speaker 2: may rub people the wrong way, especially when it comes
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: to managing up sometimes. But I think the honesty really
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: shines through. And I think that was for both of them,
• 9:25
  Speaker 2: besides just their baseball IQ, the secret to managing players.
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  Speaker 2: complete honesty. And Thad, you know this. If you're a
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: coach or a manager and you mislead a player once,
• 9:37
  Speaker 2: you've lost the player. And I think those two guys
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  Speaker 2: especially stand out to me. And all the greats do this,
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: but those two especially are really forthright and honest with
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: their players. And there's nothing a player appreciates more than honesty,
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  Speaker 2: even sometimes when the truth hurts.
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  Speaker 1: Tom, I totally agree with you. I think this was
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  Speaker 1: a real tough lesson for me to learn early in
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  Speaker 1: my career. I am kind by nature. My mother instilled
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: that in me. And sometimes the kind message isn't the
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: direct message. And I remember we sent a player down
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: and then he came up later to me and said,
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: I have no idea actually why I'm being sent down.
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: And you realize the player's careers you hope are 10 years,
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: but sometimes they're 10 months. And if it takes them
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: two months to figure out what was the message you're
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: delivering to them, you're doing them a disservice. So often
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: what I would say to players when we sent them
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: down was, hey, I just want to let you know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: this is our opinion of you now. It just so
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: happens we have jurisdiction over this roster decision. This isn't
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: an indictment of you in perpetuity, but this is the
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: way you could get back up and contribute to this
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: team is by working on these elements. And as you said,
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: sometimes it ruffles their feathers. They don't receive it particularly well.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: But oftentimes later, they would come up and say, I
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: appreciate you at least shooting me straight on that. And
• 10:49
  Speaker 1: then to your point, on the backside, you have to honor.
• 10:52
  Speaker 1: If you tell them this is what you need to
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: do to come back up, then when they do those things,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: you have to honor that and bring them back up.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: I think that's a great point. And I think the
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: game is much better now than it was, say, a
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: generation ago. I remember Theo Epstein telling me a story
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: in Boston when he got to Boston and I guess
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: it was 04, but he was looking, or 03, he
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: was looking at some of the past files in the
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: player development system. And Gary DeSarcina, I think, was a
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: coach at the time with Boston. And they went back
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: in the player development file and they saw some things
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: that Gary didn't do well defensively, whether it was footwork
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: on a double play or his arm slot in the hole,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: whatever it was, something very specific. And DeSarcina said, I
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: wish somebody had told me that. So somebody actually put
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: it in the report on him and said, this is
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: where he needs to improve, but never told the player.
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: And then I think about a story that Kevin Cash
• 11:48
  Speaker 2: just told me about being honest with players. I thought
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: this was great. They do, like a lot of teams,
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: exit interviews with players. And he had Kirby Yates before
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: Kirby really turned his career around. And he was one
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: of these guys who was on the shuttle back and forth.
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: He would pitch two innings in a blowout game. And
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: you know what that meant. You couldn't pitch for the
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: next three or four days. So you went down to
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: the minor leagues until... You were needed again. And when
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: they asked, when Kevin asked Kirby at the end of
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: the year, like, you know, how was your season with us?
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: And Kirby said, I got to be honest with you.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: You know, you have to be more honest with the
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: players about what our roles here. And every time I
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: did that, you sent me down that really, really hurt.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: I just needed some better communication. This is Kevin Cash.
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, he's a great manager. Um, so again, we're
• 12:33
  Speaker 2: getting back to honesty and communication. It's, it's, it's so
• 12:36
  Speaker 2: important and it's certainly important. Obviously I'm in the communications business. Um,
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: but for me as well, when I'm talking to players, uh,
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: it's about honesty and that you like Joe Madden and, and,
• 12:48
  Speaker 2: and Joe Torrey not having some hidden agenda. If I
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: tell them this is what the story is about, that's
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: what the story is going to be.
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  Speaker 3: That's crazy. The communication. I mean, we think of it
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: in the business world every day. It's like, it's the,
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: one of the tenants of success. But it seems like
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: it was slow developing there within baseball based on your stories. Folks,
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: when we return, we'll have more with Tom Berducci in
• 13:10
  Speaker 3: the 2026 season and postseason. We'll get his thoughts here
• 13:13
  Speaker 3: on Rosters to Rings. Welcome back, folks, to Rosters to Rings.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: We've got Tom Verducci here, and I'm going to lead
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: off this second segment here for a question for both
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: of you guys, really, because I'm curious as to what's
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: going on. When the Astros Angels Mariners hire their managers,
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: 21 of the 30 teams will have managers with three
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: or fewer years experience in the role. 12 of the
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: 30 teams will have hired a new manager in the
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: last year. It's a little bit of turnover we have
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: going on here. What do you attribute... the unprecedented volatility
• 13:57
  Speaker 3: for managers. What's going on in the game right now
• 14:00
  Speaker 3: with managers? Tom, why don't you fire away?
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't think it's a
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: one size fits all because as Pat Murphy proved, you
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: can win a World Series at the age of 67
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: after overpaying your dues in this game. But at the
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: same time, you're right. In general, the game is skewing
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: younger in the dugout, but I think it's because it's
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: skewing younger on the field. it's a new generation of players.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: People have grown up now with analytics as their first language,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: not their second language. Nobody had to learn it. And again,
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: I think we're getting back to the same common denominator here.
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: It's about connecting with players. And I think the younger
• 14:36
  Speaker 2: manager more easily connects with the younger players. And I
• 14:41
  Speaker 2: do think front offices as well are getting younger. So
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: I do say that you still need to balance what
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: I call knowledge and wisdom and wisdom comes with age.
• 14:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, the guys who are younger, so smart, but
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: they're still learning, uh, until you have that world experience
• 15:00
  Speaker 2: in this case, dugout experience, you're still learning on this job.
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: There's no question about it, but I do think the
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: game to me is definitely a younger players game. The
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: speed of the game has become so much more than
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: it was even five or 10 years ago that you're
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: seeing now for the first time that I can remember.
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: Players in their 20s are more productive than players in
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: their 30s. And I think, once again, connecting with players
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: is probably more easily done with these newer hires in
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: their 30s.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: You know, other things that I would throw into the
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: stew here, Tom, is like, first of all, I don't
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: know about the rest of you guys, but about 15 years,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: I was younger than, years ago, I was much younger
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: than I am today. But I find these young people
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: offensive that they're getting these jobs. But I think that
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: one of the things too is that For the younger GM,
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: they are pairing themselves up with younger managers. And I
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: think that makes a lot of sense. They're looking for
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: those partners who they maybe could grow with for a
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: period of time. There was a long period of time
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: in the game in the late 90s into the early
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: 2000s where every manager who managed a World Series champion
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: was on their second or more teams as a manager
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: just because it takes a lot to learn that role.
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: And most of them cut their teeth someplace before they
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: got a chance to win a championship somewhere else. Now
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: there's guys who are first-time managers winning World Series all
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: the time. Pat Murphy is kind of a unique unicorn,
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: as Tom pointed out. But I do think there's a
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: lot to be said for as you're implementing these new thoughts,
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: you want a new partner and you want somebody who
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: will kind of be in that fight with you. And
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: so I think a lot of these younger GMs are
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: aligning themselves with their new guys. So As much as
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: you read those numbers, Chet, about how much turnover there's
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: been in managers, so too have there been a lot
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: of turnover in the general manager level. And unfortunately, for
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: better or for worse, when you see that happen, oftentimes
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: new general managers will bring in new managers. And then
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: we're seeing in some cases, Seattle just hired a new
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: manager today. But, you know, sad to say this, but
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: when a team falters, the manager typically loses their job
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: first before the general manager will ultimately lose their job.
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: And so I think we're seeing a few teams that
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: now you may shift the hot seat back to the
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: general manager. Some of those teams that have hired general
• 17:20
  Speaker 1: managers who've hired their second or third manager. Most of
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: us don't get to hire a second or third manager.
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: I think AJ Preller may be setting a record for
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: how many managers he's hired, but that is a very
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: atypical thing to see. So I think we've seen a
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: little volatility in the front office. It's mirrored with volatility
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: in the dugout. But I think the goal is to
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: have a longer partnership with your manager than what we're
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: seeing today hopefully there'll be some more stabilization in those
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: partnerships moving forward.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: And let me add there too, that I think as
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Cynic would suggest too, and there's probably some truth to this,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: that by hiring the first time manager, the young manager,
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: you're not going to get a lot of pushback. That
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: manager is not, he's not established his own bona fides
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: as a manager. He doesn't have kind of the currency
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: in the vault of championships or winning somewhere else. So
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: he's a little more pliable in terms of if you're
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: the manager, general manager, and that working relationship is so important.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: But I don't think you're going to get a lot
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: of pushback that you would if you hired somebody who's
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: been around the block a couple of times. So I
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: do think that's part of it.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I think you nailed that, Tom, because The reality is
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: that front office people aspire to partner with their managers,
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: also known as they want to have a large say
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: as to how the deployment of the 26-man roster goes.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: It used to be there was a separation of church
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: and state where the front office basically can put together
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: the roster and then the manager deployed the roster to
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: try to win. And occasionally they would interface, but not
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: too often. Now the front office folks want to participate
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: in the very granularity of the deployment of that roster
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: and It's a lot easier to do that when you're
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: hiring a less experienced manager who's somewhat indebted to you
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: for that opportunity and also is very aware of the
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: nature of that responsibility walking in rather than somebody who
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: has been doing it for five to 10 years somewhere
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: else and has a very clear way of how they
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: operate in a clubhouse.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: So I'm curious that how does Pat Murphy fit that though?
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: He's been in baseball forever. He's no spring chicken, okay?
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: But he's not a veteran MLB manager. He had an
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: interim role for a while. prior to his role with
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: the Brewers. How does he fit there?
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's definitely a little bit of old school going
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: on there in terms of the manager's power, if you will. Listen,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: I've been around so long, I go back to people
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: like Billy Martin and Sparky Anderson and Tommy Lasorda. There
• 19:44
  Speaker 2: was nobody coming down from the front office to tell
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: those guys how to run a game. In fact, when
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: I started out, you would never see the general manager
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: around the clubhouse. Now it's just the way it happens
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: every game. After the game, the manager's in there with
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: probably five or six people in his front office going
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: over the game. But Pat Murphy, I think, has been
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: through so much life experience in his life that he's
• 20:07
  Speaker 2: just not pushing the buttons that Matt Arnold wants him
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: to push. And they have a great relationship. In fact,
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: you know, Matt Arnold told me they go at it
• 20:15
  Speaker 2: from time to time, sometimes hot and heavy, but there's
• 20:19
  Speaker 2: so much mutual respect there. And I think that's a
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: very healthy atmosphere where you can have disagreements and come
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: out on the other side, the better for it. Just
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: as a couple of examples, a couple of years ago,
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: the Brewers front office didn't think that Bryce Terang was
• 20:33
  Speaker 2: an everyday player. They wanted Pat Murphy to platoon him
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: with Andrew Monasterio. And there was one day Matt Arnold
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: looked at the lineup and he said, certainly you're not
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: going to play Bryce Terang against the lefty. And Pat
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Murphy said, certainly I'm playing Bryce Terang. And he played
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: him in the world series. They had an algorithm, some
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: metrics that showed that Luis Lara was the better option
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: in right field than Sal Freelick. The manager gets those numbers,
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: looks at him and said, there's no way I'm sitting
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: Sal Freelick. He said, He's going to find some way
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: to beat you. The numbers are not going to show that.
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: It wasn't like there was a huge difference in the
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: numbers anyway. So they do give him the latitude to
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: make those kind of decisions. They give him the information.
• 21:18
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the best environment of all, where
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: as a manager, you want it all. You want all
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: the information. No one's saying that Pat Murphy is disregarding analytics.
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: He's not. But at the same time, there has to
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: be room for the manager's opinion. And I think that's
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: why the brewers have such a good relationship between Matt
• 21:35
  Speaker 2: and Pat Murphy.
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: And Tom, what I would say from what I've witnessed,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: one observation I'd have is when you mentioned all of
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: those storied managers, most of whom are in the Hall
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: of Fame that you referenced from from days of your
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: here is they're their teams had their personality. You know,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: you played the way that, that, you know, Sparky Anderson
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: wanted you to play or Earl Weaver wanted you to play.
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: And if you didn't play the way the manager wanted
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: you to play, you weren't on the team. And then
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: we had this big transition in the game where that
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: stopped holding true. But, you know, we still had guys
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: like Mike Socha and Joe Girardi, who were probably of
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: that ilk, Jim Leland and guys like that, maybe Bruce
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: Bochy to a certain extent. Well, that, that is the
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: way that Pat Murphy runs the show. Like, that the
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: front facing personality of the Milwaukee Brewers is Pat Murphy.
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: And there are very few teams that you would say
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: the manager is kind of the lead outward facing personality
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: of the organization. I'm not perfectly sure that works for
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: the New York Yankees today or the Los Angeles Dodgers.
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: It sure as heck works for the Milwaukee Brewers. And
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: he does an excellent job at the top. And then
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the last thing I'll say is my view of information
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: for managers or your scouting director or what have you is,
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: I do want the manager to have the most information possible.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I also want him to have the agency to make
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the decision on the front line humanly. And so he
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: knows the personalities of Luis Lara and Sal Freelick extremely well.
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: And he should be able to make that front line decision.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: And it should transcend what the margins are on the models.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: I think if we're making philosophical decisions where we're deciding
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: to not play a guy like Bryce Turing against lefties,
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: that's a big conversation to have. But when we're making
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: frontline decisions, there's information that the coaches have that the
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: people upstairs just simply don't have. They know which reliever
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: didn't get a night's sleep that night before a guy
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: who threw before the game and his arms hanging a
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: little bit. It may still say in the model, he's
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: the best matchup for the eighth inning, but the manager
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: and the pitching coach know for sure he's not the
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: best matchup. They have to have the authority to make
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: the frontline decisions.
• 23:37
  Speaker 3: Fed, you mentioned information a few times there, and I'm
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: very curious about something. Um, Is it difficult to get
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: information out of these guys? We need some information, valuable
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: information from a front office. The way these organizations kind
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: of covet information as currency in this day and age
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: in MLB, is it easier now than it maybe was yesterday?
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: Or is it harder now than it was yesterday?
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Um, I think with managers, it's harder because the access
• 24:06
  Speaker 2: isn't nearly as good. It's become such a corporate job,
• 24:09
  Speaker 2: if you will, that their availability to the media generally
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: isn't a scripted way, press conference, microphones, everybody's there. Whereas
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: back in the day, you know, I literally would be
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: sitting on the sofa in their office, just talking baseball.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: And that's where I learned so much baseball with the
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: front offices. Um, It's probably a little more difficult because
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: there's so many layers to a front office now. The
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: job is huge. It used to be there was one
• 24:36
  Speaker 2: guy who knew everything. Now there's so many people in
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: the front office. It's more of an overseer, not to
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: say that they're not involved in everything, but it's just
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: kind of the growth of front offices in general has
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: been crazy in the last 10 years. What's interesting to
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: me is a lot of front offices will kind of
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: use us for information as well. Like if they want
• 25:00
  Speaker 2: to find out about players or other teams or what's
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: going on, I think that does become a two-way street
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: a lot of times.
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: I'm sad you've never done that.
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: I'll tell you the one who is best at that,
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: that I came across was Pat Gillick. I was just
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: a young guy starting out and, you know, Pat Gillick,
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: he's a hall of famer. And he would always ask
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: me questions about at the time I was covering the Yankees,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: you know, things with the Yankees, what's this guy like, and,
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: you know, I'm not sure he ever paid any attention
• 25:27
  Speaker 2: to whatever I said. The fact is he was asking
• 25:30
  Speaker 2: questions and I always was impressed by that.
• 25:32
  Speaker 3: Was he wanting information about players that they had, or
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: was he wanting information about kind of front office strategy
• 25:38
  Speaker 3: or something?
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: Uh, it was more about players. I would say, um,
• 25:41
  Speaker 2: you know, maybe guys coming up through the system or
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: what are the Yankees think of this guy? I mean,
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: it was kind of top line stuff. It was nothing
• 25:49
  Speaker 2: really nitty gritty about guys. It wasn't like background checks
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: or anything like that. Um, and I'm not sure how
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: much I could have given him anyway, but it was
• 25:57
  Speaker 2: more of the fact that he was, he was willing
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: to ask questions out of just some guy covering the
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: Yankee beat.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, we've talked about it a few times
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: in this episode, relationships matter, and there's a two way
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: street to that. And Tom, you're, you're literally a man
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: who's had access throughout your career directly to players and coaches.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: Why wouldn't we tap into your perspectives on, on those things?
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: Because that, that may, you may find a nugget, like,
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: and it may be, once every 10 times we talk
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to you, but that's valuable information. And then cultivates the relationship,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I assume, because you like talking about players. You like
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: talking about the championship ideals of organizations. And so you
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: never know when your next tremendous insight is going to come. Tom,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: one question I wanted to ask you about as we
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: shift to the playoffs this year, it was a fascinating
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: year in the American League this year, where for the
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: first time in the history of the game, we see
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: a team with a 500 record, not only win their division,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: but they actually hosted playoff games. And that was kind
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: of masked the fact that the AL Central was also
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: not particularly robust this year. The number two seed in
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: the American League only won 85 games in the Cleveland Guardians.
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: Do you see this as a kind of one year
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: disparity or do you see a real gap between the leagues?
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: As we saw in interleague play, the National League, I think,
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: ended up being 56 games above 500 against the American
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: League this year, which I don't know how that works
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: with history. But it seems like a very large margin
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: between the two leagues this season.
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it definitely was true this year, and I don't
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: think it's an anomaly. I think going forward, at least
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: in the short term, it's going to continue. I look
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: at the American League, and I was asking somebody this
• 27:33
  Speaker 2: the other day. Who's the next team on the rise
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: in the American League? Because I think the Yankees right
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: now are stuck. They don't have a lot of places
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: to go. They don't have a great culture. They're sort
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: of locked in with contracts. They are who they are,
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: which is a good team, don't get me wrong, but
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: not a super team. I thought the Mariners were a
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: team on the rise, and they took a huge step
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: back this year, and now they're questioning where they are
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: as a franchise. If you dial it back three years ago,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: Baltimore looked like they were the team on the rise
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: with their core of young players. They've taken a couple
• 28:06
  Speaker 2: of steps back from there. The Boston Red Sox, maybe,
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: but I've got to be honest with you, they were
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: a bad team before Chad Tracy got there. They played
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: incredible for five weeks, and they were not a very
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: good team after that. So, uh, you know, I'm not
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: sure how much of that was just. Being super hot
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: for a short period of time. Um, you know, the
• 28:28
  Speaker 2: tigers with the losses they've had in losing school bowl and,
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: and some other people pitching, especially they've got a nice core,
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: but I, to answer your question, I mean, I don't know.
• 28:39
  Speaker 2: I mean, that Padres brewer series to me was like
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: a world series. I mean, the Padres were very capable
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: of winning a world series. I couldn't say that about
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: seeds probably four, five, six in the American League. And
• 28:52
  Speaker 2: by the way, I would reseed according to record. I
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: know Major League Baseball owners want to honor a championship,
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: finishing first in your division. It's just not the same.
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, the fact that the Guardians, the Astros, the
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: White Sox, all avoided the three best teams in the
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: first couple of rounds, which are all in the AL East.
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: That didn't sit right by me because if you see them,
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: the Rays were one, the Yankees were two, the Red
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: Sox were three. I think it was obvious to everybody.
• 29:21
  Speaker 2: And as you mentioned, a 500 team gets home field
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: advantage in the first round. So, you know, I know
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: they're not going to do that because they do want
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: to honor first place finishes, but I would at least
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: have a conversation about it going forward. And I understand
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: you can't really reseed after the first round because in
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: our world, everybody loves brackets. And you just have to
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: set your bracket before the tournament starts. You can't go
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: out and redo the brackets after one round.
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: Thad, what would you do for improvements? I mean, we've
• 29:50
  Speaker 3: talked about this, you and I, back and forth. It
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: seems like every decade we get some adjustment to the
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: postseason season. What would you do to the existing playoff
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: format to improve it?
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm going to echo what Tom said. I think
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: reseeding is really important. When you look at the real
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: importance of playing home series to start with, it's significant,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: especially for markets that have bona fide fan bases and
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: home field advantage. I look at it and think it's
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: remarkable that the Chicago Cubs and Philadelphia Phillies don't get
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: to play a single home playoff game. And I think
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: that's something we should remedy. I know we want to
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: limit the amount of travel in that first round, but
• 30:32
  Speaker 1: we travel all the time and play the next day.
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: We don't need to have off days between these series.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: I think it would be really nice, at least even
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: in those opening series, to have it set up such
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: that every home market should at least get to see
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: their team play one playoff game before they get eliminated.
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: I think it could be interesting to look at a
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: three game series and say that the, the better seed
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: gets a choice. Do you want to play the first
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: two at home or the last two at home? And
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: you get a choice and there's a strategic decision.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: At least one game, right? You don't want to see
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: like the best of three deal where the Cubs didn't
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: even get to play a game at Wrigley this year.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: And that's, and that seems, and also when you look
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: at some of those series and the coin toss may
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: be who got the home field advantage because between San Diego,
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Philadelphia and, And in Chicago there, I think they were
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: three of the top six or seven highest attended games
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: throughout the year. They had the best attendance. They had
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: the best home field environments. And it really mattered if
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: you got to play games at home. And I just
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: think as we're trying to build the game, the notion
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: that your team could play a series, it's no longer
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: just a wildcard game, but a series and not actually
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: get to watch your team play one game seems like
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: a miss to me. I also just to echo what
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Tom was talking about, You think about it, the Cleveland Guardians,
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: and hat tip to them, they did a great job.
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: And Steven Vogt and Chris Antonetti and those guys do
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: a tremendous job every year. They're consummate overachievers. The facts
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: of the facts, though, they got a bye. They were
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: the 11th best team in Major League Baseball. They would
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: not have made the field in the National League to
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: play playoff games, let alone they had home games and
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: they had a bye. I just think there's something, and
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: maybe that's just anomalous, and we'll just have to weather
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: those storms. But you look at a team like the
• 32:12
  Speaker 1: Arizona Diamondbacks, they actually were better than the team that
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: got the bye in the American League. They didn't even
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: make the field in the National League.
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: Played in a tougher division.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: And I think that just happens from time to time.
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: So I don't think we can bemoan that too much.
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: But there's probably some way that we can recede this
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: so that the Yankees and Tampa don't have to face
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: off against each other in anything shy of the American
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: League Championship Series this year.
• 32:33
  Speaker 3: You don't want to make a change due to one
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: season or one outcome. I mean, but it does seem
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: like we've had this happen a few times before. I mean,
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: the NFL has got the same problem. The AFC South
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: ends up in the playoffs every year. They usually have
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: a team with a 500 record. So they have a
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: very similar situation happening there. So those are your improvements.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: You would reseed Tom in some way, shape, or form
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: to try and get the matchups right. Thad, we've talked
• 32:58
  Speaker 3: about this. I'm all for every team should get a
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: home playoff game. I hated the one game deal we
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: had going for a while there in the wildcard. That
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: was just You can't solve anything in a game in baseball,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: in my opinion. After 162, you give two teams one
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: game playoff. That seemed like a ripoff. I like the
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: best of three better, but I think five. Five. Give
• 33:22
  Speaker 3: me five. Best of five would be probably the best
• 33:27
  Speaker 3: format for a fan, at least, from my standpoint. So,
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: you know, you covered the playoffs this year, Tom. What's
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: it like? Describe a day in the life of covering
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: the playoffs.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: It's a long day. For me, it's about prepping for
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: the broadcast for Fox, which I probably over-prepare, but I
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: want to have lots of notes with me because I
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: don't know where the game is going to go. I
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: need background stories. I need statistical information. I need analytics.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: Although I got to tell you, on a national broadcast,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: you have to be really careful about how much analytics
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: you use. we generally tend to have the more casual
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: fan jumping on board in the post season. So just
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: for instance, in game five, I wanted to talk about
• 34:16
  Speaker 2: Jacob Mizorowski's fastball and his induced vertical break. And like,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: they didn't want me to use the word vert, which,
• 34:24
  Speaker 2: you know, now it's common knowledge and common language in
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: the game today. So I had to talk about the
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: carry or the rise of his fastball. That's just a
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: small example, but, Um, yeah, I'll go in with my
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: own pages of notes that I like to print out
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: and have with me. Um, you know, generally there's interviews
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: before the game for us with Fox. We have exclusive
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: meetings with each manager for post-season games, which is really cool.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: It's like an old school session where you can ask
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: anything and get a lot of honesty. Uh, and then
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: of course cover the game. And then after the game interviews,
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: usually on the field with players, And then after that,
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: I put my writing hat on and I go into
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: the clubhouse and do more interviews, go back to the hotel,
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: write my story. Depending on what, you know, where the
• 35:10
  Speaker 2: game is, East Coast or West Coast, generally I'm going
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: to be up until, you know, 2, 3, 4 o'clock
• 35:16
  Speaker 2: in the morning writing. And then, you know, get up
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: at 7 o'clock, 8 o'clock and do the whole day
• 35:21
  Speaker 2: all over again. And then you have travel in between.
• 35:24
  Speaker 2: So I like to say adrenaline is a wonderful thing.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: It's so cool that these games are usually really competitive.
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: You know they're exciting. It's postseason baseball, full house, a
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: lot on the line. So it's easy to carry through it.
• 35:39
  Speaker 2: And then at the end, you just crash and sleep.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: Tom, when you're covering the games on the sidelines and
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: you're doing those in-game interviews, which is kind of a
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: new element in these broadcasts, how do you balance asking
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: the hard-hitting journalistic question that you know the fans want
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: to know with the feel of the game that maybe
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: at that point, the intensity, the stress, the pressure on
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the manager is so excessive and you want to be
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: sensitive to that.
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great point. And first of all, fans
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: should understand that the ones who are doing these, they
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: want to do them. We're not forcing anybody to do it.
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: For instance, Craig Stammen, rookie manager with the Padres, didn't
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: want to do those interviews on camera. So he would
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: speak to me during the break, half inning break, Um,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: just off, not off the record, but off camera. Uh,
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: he didn't want to speak on camera while the game
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: was going on, which is fine. So we honored that.
• 36:33
  Speaker 2: And I use that information as, as a reporter. Um,
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: but everybody else is, is totally fine with doing it
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: in the game. So we're not bothering anybody who's a
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: hostile witness. Uh, the other thing is that, yes, there
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: are certain questions that may be sensitive that I have
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: to be aware of. There are, now there are certain times, uh,
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: During the break, I will ask the manager if it's
• 36:55
  Speaker 2: okay if I ask this question. I don't want to
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: surprise somebody and have them in an awkward situation because
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: the game is going on. Here's a for instance for you.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: With Pat Murphy, I mean, the guy's waited his whole
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: life to get to the World Series. And I just
• 37:10
  Speaker 2: remember Joe Torre telling me the, you know, I've arrived
• 37:13
  Speaker 2: moment was standing on the foul line, game one of
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: the World Series in 96 and hearing the national anthem
• 37:19
  Speaker 2: played and realizing this is it. There's no other games
• 37:23
  Speaker 2: that are going on. This is as far as you
• 37:25
  Speaker 2: can go. First time in his life he got to
• 37:27
  Speaker 2: the World Series. So I asked Pat what it was
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: like for him to be out there on the first
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: baseline for the National Anthem. And I could tell it
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: wasn't a question he wanted to, or at least was
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: able to really frame properly. That's a bigger essay type question,
• 37:46
  Speaker 2: if you will, that requires some reflection. And he was
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: too much in game mode. So I stayed away from that.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: I didn't ask him about that because I just got
• 37:54
  Speaker 2: the sense that he wasn't going to answer it properly
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: or comfortably. Um, and if there's something strategy related, uh,
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: I may also heads up like, Hey, can I ask
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: you about, you know, Mizoroski and how he looks out there?
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Those are generally pretty easy to ask how the starting
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: pitcher is doing. Usually it's just one time through a lineup. Um,
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: But it's a good question because you also have to
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: know the guy you're dealing with certain guys. You can
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: ask anything. Dave Roberts is just terrific. I mean, he
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: will tell you his pitching plan for the rest of
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: the game. He's not bothered at all. He, you know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 2: obviously he's done it a bunch, very comfortable with it.
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: Murph was great showing his personality. I thought, you know,
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: he was just so genuine. I thought that was a
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: treat for fans. who are introduced to him for the
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: first time, a lot of the national fans, and you
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: get to really see who this guy is. That's the
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: biggest thing for me, guys, is, yeah, hearing something about
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: the strategy is good. Most of it tends to be boilerplate.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: You know, he looks good. He needs to throw a
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: strike one, whatever. We've all seen the football coaches do
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: this as well. But to hear someone's voice, to see
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: the look in their eye, to hear them answer something honestly,
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: you begin to learn more about who these people are
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: rather than just, you know, a guy chewing tobacco in
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: the dugout. Although nobody chews tobacco anymore. I shouldn't say that.
• 39:11
  Speaker 3: Any of these guys ever surprise you? Sounds like some
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: of the questions are kind of prepared.
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think they surprise me. I mean, you know,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: like I asked, Murph is always surprising people. I kind
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: of just threw him a softball question about Cooper Pratt,
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: who at the time had five consecutive hits.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: He's 26.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Years old and he wound up getting a six consecutive hit.
• 39:34
  Speaker 2: And I'm amazed at how well he's doing in the postseason.
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: When he first started, he looked a little nervous for
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: game one. And all of a sudden this, this kid,
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: he's a kid is just rolling. So I asked Murph
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: about that. And Murph being Murph was complaining about his
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: base running because he, He got thrown out on a
• 39:50
  Speaker 2: base hit where he should not have got thrown out.
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: Just following a throw, he's continued on the second and
• 39:54
  Speaker 2: got thrown out. Murph didn't like that. That was not
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: a lot of managers who call out the guy on
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: a base running mistake on live TV the way he did.
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: That's great. Folks, when we return, we're going to talk
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: about the offseason and the collective bargaining agreement on Rosters
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: to Rings.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosters to Rings. Tom, we're very honored
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: to be talking to you about this and your generosity
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: with your time. As we all know, the collective bargaining
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: agreement currently expires on December 1st, which will unfortunately lead
• 40:37
  Speaker 1: to likely a labor stoppage, a work stoppage for time.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: How does that impact your job? From a front office
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: executive standpoint, we can't interact with players anymore. Do you
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: have any such limitations for yourself moving forward or is
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: it business as usual for you?
• 40:53
  Speaker 2: Well, it's not usual, but I'm not under any restrictions
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: other than that. For instance, my work with MLB Network,
• 41:00
  Speaker 2: I think based on the last lockout that we're not
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: allowed to use images and likenesses of players, active players. Obviously,
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: we can go to the archives and talk about some
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: of the greatest games. But yeah, there are restrictions as
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: far as MLB Network goes, as far as my work
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: with Sports Illustrated goes. really no restrictions. Although in general,
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: during these lockouts, uh, both sides like to keep the
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: flow of information very tight. So for instance, you won't
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: be able to get a lot of other owners talking
• 41:32
  Speaker 2: about the labor situation, you know, that all comes from
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Dan Halem or whoever is leading the negotiations and the
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: same on the player side. Generally, you're not going to
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: hear a lot of players, you know, talking about the
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: labor situation. Most of them are not literally at the table. Uh,
• 41:48
  Speaker 2: so the flow of information is, is just a trickle
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: from a very few, from very few places and it
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: tends to go slowly. And I think the same thing
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: is going to happen this time, whereas you mentioned December one, uh,
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: probably when the lockout begins. To me that, you know,
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: both sides, I totally honor their commitment to their side
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: of this argument cap or no cap. Uh, nobody's bluffing here.
• 42:13
  Speaker 2: So I think the idea that there's an exit ramp
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: between now. and spring training is probably overly optimistic. We
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: all love that to happen, but it's going to take
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: the trauma, the pressure, the potential of losing games, I think,
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: to really move people even a little bit off their positions.
• 42:32
  Speaker 3: What do you feel kind of needs to get fixed
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: in the game of baseball? I keep going back and
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: forth on the cap, the floor, you know, and then
• 42:41
  Speaker 3: I go see the Brewers play the Rays in the
• 42:42
  Speaker 3: World Series, and I'm like, we don't need a cap.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: What do we need a cap for? These guys are
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: out there winning. What do What do you feel like
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: is the fix here, the solution?
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: First of all, I love the product on the field.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: The pitch timer has been the greatest thing in baseball
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: since frozen yogurt in a plastic batting helmet at the ballpark.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: That wiped out 20 to 25 minutes of absolute dead
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: time in a game.
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: I prefer nachos myself, but frozen yogurts.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: The game itself is in a really good place. The
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: athleticism is crazy. The pitching is just, I mean, I
• 43:17
  Speaker 2: don't know how anybody gets a hit. It's so good.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: So it's being played faster and in a higher level
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: than I think it ever has. So the product in
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: the field is great. You mentioned this World Series, you
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: had the number 19 payroll against the number 28 payroll.
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: And it's easy for people to say, well, there's nothing
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: wrong with the game. There's competitive balance for you. But
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: it's also kind of like walking out your front door
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: in December on a cold day and saying, there's no
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: climate change going on. You know, you can't conflate a
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: one-year issue with whatever the pattern is, the trend here.
• 43:51
  Speaker 2: So could the game be more competitive in terms of balance?
• 43:55
  Speaker 2: Sure it can. I mean, there is a growing gap
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: between the revenues and payrolls of the top markets and
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: the bottom markets. Doesn't mean the bottom markets can't win.
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: It just makes it harder. So the owners are saying
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: we need to address that. The players are saying it
• 44:10
  Speaker 2: works out just fine the way that it is. And again,
• 44:14
  Speaker 2: I don't see where the compromise is on this issue.
• 44:19
  Speaker 2: A lot of other CBA arguments, it was like almost
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: working with a math formula in terms of revenue sharing,
• 44:26
  Speaker 2: in terms of arbitration numbers. You could push and pull.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: You pull on one thread, you know, mend another thread.
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: In this case, it's how do you bridge that gap
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: where the owners think that the cap will allow players
• 44:40
  Speaker 2: on the whole to do better. And the players are saying, no,
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: we would do worse with a cap. I mean, it's
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: going to take a while to get to a resolution.
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: You know, Tom, I think we've discussed some of the
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: numbers on the show, you know, leading into this year,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: the previous five years, I think there have been over
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: 200 playoff games. 74% of them had been won by
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: teams in the top 10 payroll teams. That's just the reality.
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: That doesn't mean the bottom 10 payroll teams don't win.
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: They just don't win nearly as frequently. And I think
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: the previous 10 World Series up until this one were
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: all won by teams who were in the top or
• 45:13
  Speaker 1: the middle 10 payrolls. And it's been a long time
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: since a bottom 10 payroll team was even relevant enough
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: to participate in these. And when they do, they don't
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: tend to win. So I agree with your concept that
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: one year does not make a new trend that we
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: don't have to be concerned about the fact that there
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: has been a really general lack of parity. And it's
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: not that we don't think there should be the ability
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: to have teams that win year in and year out
• 45:38
  Speaker 1: and have dynasties. It's just that there are only about
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: five markets that believe that they can have a dynasty.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: And I think you want to have a sport where
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: every market thinks they can have a dynasty. And we
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: just don't have the equivalent of the Oklahoma City Thunder
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: or the Kansas City Chiefs and their dynasty pursuits in
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: our sport.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: I also.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: would agree with you. I think one of the core
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: challenges I see, and I'd love your thoughts on this is,
• 46:02
  Speaker 1: you know, I just wonder if there's a lack of
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: mutual trust and respect between the two sides, because there
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: should be a math formula that works here, right? Like
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: there should be a floor that actually allows for a
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: ceiling that gives in aggregate much more money, not just more,
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: but much more money to the players. Like there is
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: a sweet spot there that we could reach, but it
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: feels to me a little bit like, and we saw
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: it today, when there was another exchange of ideas is
• 46:29
  Speaker 1: it seems to me like what happens, and I'm speaking
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: hyperbolically here, is that one side sends a volley to
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: the other side. The other side says two things. One,
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: categorically reject this and be very dismissive. And then secondarily,
• 46:42
  Speaker 1: after you've done that, can you summarize what they actually
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: sent so I can read what they're saying? But the
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: first thing they do is they just categorically reject and
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: dismiss the other side. And I just, I hope there's
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: enough respect and trust on both sides that we can
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: work together because there should be a resolution here that
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: does work for both sides.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Well, you're a hundred percent right. Trust is a major
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: problem here because we have two sides that there is
• 47:09
  Speaker 2: mistrust going both ways. And to the point where they
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: can't agree, and this sounds like our country a lot
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: of times, on the facts, right? When you talk about
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: a percentage of revenues, they can't even agree on that.
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: and what the numbers are. So I think to solve
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: this issue, they're first going to have to agree on
• 47:29
  Speaker 2: the facts of the case. Like what's the total revenues?
• 47:32
  Speaker 2: What are the revenues that we're talking about? And what
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: percentage are going to players? Because right now there's just
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: not agreement on basic facts. And that's because each side
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: doesn't trust the other. And that's going to take some time,
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: but that has to be done first. You're absolutely right.
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: I think mistrust is a factor. Historically, that's been the
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: case here. Um, but until we get to a resolution first,
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: we have to get to the fact that they can
• 47:58
  Speaker 2: agree on some numbers and, and trust each other, um,
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: on what these numbers are.
• 48:03
  Speaker 3: The, the issue with the, the ceiling and wanting the
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: ceiling is we think we're going to get some competitive
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: balance from that. Does baseball actually have a competitive balance
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: problem or is the issue a little more complicated than
• 48:16
  Speaker 3: just payroll? Is there information? Is there, you know, We
• 48:20
  Speaker 3: had Justin Morneau on. He thinks teams should share information equally.
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: Like there should just be a library of all the
• 48:25
  Speaker 3: data and info out there that they can all tap into.
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's happening on the amateur market. I'm
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: not surprised. I wouldn't back an idea like that because
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: I think intellect is one of the capitals that teams
• 48:38
  Speaker 2: should have. And proprietarily, like for instance, the Rays are
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: one of the first ones to really understand the value
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: of catchers framing pitches and you know in this game
• 48:49
  Speaker 2: edges last like a matter of months if it lasts
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: a year it's amazing and soon everybody else had it
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: but there was no reason i don't see a reason
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: that a team that has an edge there would have
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: to share it with other teams but as far as
• 49:01
  Speaker 2: is there a competitive problem here a competition or competitive
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: balance problem i guess it depends how you define it
• 49:08
  Speaker 2: because i agree with that that it's it's hard for
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: the teams in the bottom half of payrolls to compete
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: year in and year out. You can have a Haley's
• 49:16
  Speaker 2: Comet once in a while, but to keep a team
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: together is extremely hard. I mean, you think about how
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: good the Brewers are. They've done it with so much churn.
• 49:25
  Speaker 2: That's a credit to their front office. I mean, you'd
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: love to keep Freddie Peralta and Corbin Burns and on
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: and on, Willie Adams. All these stars have come through
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: there who get traded before they get to their sixth year.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: They've done an amazing job to keep the machine going
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: with churn. Whereas if you're a fan of the team,
• 49:42
  Speaker 2: you want your best players to stay there, especially the
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: homegrown players. So is there a competitive balance problem?
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: There is.
• 49:49
  Speaker 2: It depends on how big you think that is, because
• 49:52
  Speaker 2: obviously the Brewers and Rays prove that it can happen.
• 49:56
  Speaker 2: Does it happen enough, I guess, is the question.
• 49:59
  Speaker 1: And I think lest we forget that when we entered
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: the playoffs... Regardless of how well Tampa had done and
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: how well the Brewers had done, the Yankees and the
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Dodgers were still betting favorites to win their leagues and
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: go to the World Series. And so, you know, I
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: think you see that. And I think one of the
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: biggest challenges for Pat Murphy this year and for Kevin
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: Cash was when you do beat the Yankees as Tampa
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Bay and when you do beat the Dodgers as the
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: Brewers did, there could be a huge letdown because that
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: could have been viewed as your World Series because that
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: was the anomalous event that took place this postseason. Now
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden you've got to get your team
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: back up to compete in the World Series and treat
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: their next opponent as the best opponent they've ever faced.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: That's probably not the way the game should be laid
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: out where it's so anomalous that you were able to
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: vanquish these teams with payrolls that are a multiple of
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: your payroll that then when you get to the next round,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: they're oftentimes as letdowns, but you do see that in
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: this sport. Yeah.
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: And I think it's, to me, it's good for baseball
• 50:59
  Speaker 2: to have those super teams. I, you know, I don't
• 51:02
  Speaker 2: necessarily mean, you know, winning a championship two, three, four
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: years in a row. Uh, but baseball is best when
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: the Dodgers, the Cubs, the Yankees have strong teams. The
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: ratings show that, uh, I have no problem with those
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: teams being above everybody else, but to me, the great
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: equalizer is the post season. I mean, it is the
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: ultimate trap door, especially with the extra rounds. Um, And
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: I guess if we get a new agreement and the
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: owners get what they want, we'll have more games in
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: the postseason, fewer regular season games, but that division series
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: will become a seven game series instead of a five
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: game series. But I do think, you know, and you know,
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: this is baseball becomes a sprint in the postseason. It's
• 51:45
  Speaker 2: a short sample. Literally anything can happen. Now we had
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: the two best teams get through to the world series
• 51:50
  Speaker 2: this year. That is the exception, not the rule. But
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: I do think the postseason has turned out to be
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: a great equalizer when it comes to big markets and
• 51:58
  Speaker 2: small markets.
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: Do you have any recommendations for both sides in this negotiation?
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: Anything you want to see happen?
• 52:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the game is in a great place momentum-wise.
• 52:08
  Speaker 2: And I would just caution that it took so long
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: to get back from the 94-95 strike. And that was
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: a world that's very different from our world today. We
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: live in a world where everybody's fighting for your attention.
• 52:25
  Speaker 2: the bandwidth of our brains and our attention cannot grow.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: It is what it is. And yet we have so
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: many more choices now than we did in 1994 that
• 52:34
  Speaker 2: people will move on more quickly than they did back then.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: So I would caution that the cost of shutting down
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: the game in 2026-7 is much higher than what it
• 52:48
  Speaker 2: was in 94-95. Now, I know there's a lot of
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: people who will say there is a difference here in
• 52:53
  Speaker 2: that If you have a shutdown in 27 but still
• 52:56
  Speaker 2: play the postseason, on paper, that's not as bad as 94.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: What really harmed baseball in 94 was that was a
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: strike that took away the postseason. There was no postseason
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: that year. And it's not just that the postseason is
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: where most of the economy is in baseball. It's much
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: more valuable than April and May. But that's where the
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: emotional attachment is. And like in 2020, we had a
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: shortened season because of COVID. We had a championship round
• 53:26
  Speaker 2: of playoffs, expanded round of playoffs. I thought it was terrific.
• 53:30
  Speaker 2: Even without people in the stands, it definitely was weird.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: And it was a very different circumstance, not labor related.
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: But we did have a postseason. So I think if
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: baseball is able to play enough of a regular season
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: and play a postseason, I think the costs will not
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: be as catastrophic as 94, 95. But if you're talking
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: about losing a whole year, I mean, I don't want
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: you to think about that because that would set baseball
• 53:56
  Speaker 2: back for years.
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: That's a horrible thought.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: And Tom, I think one thing we saw, I would
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: be interested in your thoughts on this. You know, when
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: Fox sees what the NLCS and ALCS look like, and
• 54:09
  Speaker 1: you've got The four teams remaining are small market teams
• 54:12
  Speaker 1: in Cleveland, Tampa, and Milwaukee. I'm sure they're keeping their
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: fingers crossed that the Dodgers make it to the World Series.
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: They don't get their wish, and it's two small market teams.
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: But the upside of that was I think there were
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: some of the best young players on display this postseason.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: And guys who are not household names, but will be.
• 54:29
  Speaker 1: The Gavin Williams and Parker Messick and Cam Schlittler and
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: guys like Chase DeLauder and Chase Madroth and all the
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: guys with the Chicago White Sox. But then when you
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: get to the World Series and you see guys like
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Jackson Churio and Junior Caminero, these are guys who will
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: be household names in this sport. But then you also
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: have some of the veteran guys like Yandy Diaz, who
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: hasn't probably gotten his just due based on how great
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: a hitter he's been. Christian Yelich, Bryce Terang, obviously Jacob Mizorowski,
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: and names that people had heard, but they probably couldn't
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: put a name to the face of Logan Henderson or
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: Robert Gasser. And they're on full display. Now you're talking
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: about a potential work stoppage and kind of losing all
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: of that momentum that the game has pushed. So, yes,
• 55:14
  Speaker 1: we didn't get the big market teams, but we did
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: have some of the up-and-coming stars of the game on display.
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: Guys who I hope will become more household names. And
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: fans hopefully fell in love with those guys. And young
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: kids across the globe who watch baseball hopefully now want
• 55:30
  Speaker 1: to have Junior Caminero and Jackson Turio posters in their room.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe they wouldn't have had that otherwise. So, yes, we
• 55:36
  Speaker 1: lost the big market clubs, but we got some of
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: these younger players. How do you feel about that element
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: of it? The health of the sport, as you've referenced,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: is in a great spot. But I think a lot
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: of that has to do with this incredible youth movement
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: we're seeing and these burgeoning stars in the game.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's so important when it comes to
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: baseball stars that they get postseason exposure. I mean, we're
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: talking about 15, 16, sometimes more millions of people watching
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: these guys. And again, we're talking about national audiences who
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: maybe are not familiar with the Junior Caminaros and Jackson
• 56:07
  Speaker 2: Churrios and get to see him on a nightly basis,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: prime time on national TV. That is huge. I mean,
• 56:13
  Speaker 2: I think about Derek Jeter, and he was going to
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: be a star anyway. I get it. But he basically
• 56:17
  Speaker 2: grew up on October nights on our TVs. Every October,
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: the Yankees are playing in prime time, and Jeter's doing
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: something wonderful. Buster Posey with the Giants, same thing, three
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: times in five years. Yeah, going into the postseason, the
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: exposure there is unlike anything else. You can win MVPs
• 56:35
  Speaker 2: and Cy Youngs, but there's something about playing, especially in
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: the World Series. So I think those guys, if they're
• 56:42
  Speaker 2: not household names now, they're right on the cusp of
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: being that. And a lot of people maybe weren't familiar
• 56:48
  Speaker 2: or hadn't heard their names a lot. Jacob Mizorowski as well,
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: he can just own the game for the next five years.
• 56:55
  Speaker 2: He's going to win the Cy Young. He won the
• 56:56
  Speaker 2: clinching game of the World Series. Just a fun kid.
• 57:00
  Speaker 2: I mean, one of my highlights for this postseason was
• 57:04
  Speaker 2: interviewing Jacob Mizorowski on the field after they won the
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: World Series, and he literally had tears in his eyes.
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: It got me, man. I mean, I have not seen
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: that after a World Series win any time, and I've
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: been covering the World Series since 1985. That really got me,
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: and I think That's what we're talking about here is again,
• 57:27
  Speaker 2: fans have to see and hear the players, not just
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: collect their baseball cards, but feel like, you know, they
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: know these players, even though you don't, you want to
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: know more about them, but you have to hear them
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: in their own voice and see them. It's so important
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: to get exposure in the post season, but also get
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: these players in their own voice. And, uh, you know,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: baseball has done a better job with that. I think recently, uh,
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: and can still do better in that regard.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: Well, it's that little bit of connection, right? Just that
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: little bit of connection you can give them in the
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: postseason kind of provides that for a lot of fans
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: and a lot of players. We'd be remiss if we
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: did not ask this question. This will be the last one, Tom.
• 58:03
  Speaker 3: We promise. We've got a month here before the deadline
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: in the CBA, and everything I'm reading is we're about
• 58:10
  Speaker 3: to see $ 2 billion or more change hands. What do
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: you think is going to happen over the next month?
• 58:15
  Speaker 3: We've got a big hot stove coming up here. Is
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: that what we should be preparing for?
• 58:19
  Speaker 2: I do think it'll be busy because I think a
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: lot of players and teams want to wrap things before
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: December 1st. And the only caveat here is it's not
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: a great free agent class. You know, Tarek Skubal, by
• 58:33
  Speaker 2: far and away, the best player. After that, you know,
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: you got a couple of players coming over from Japan
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: who are highly rated, Seiya Suzuki, I think Adrian Morajon,
• 58:43
  Speaker 2: the relief pitcher, is going to have a great market,
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: probably get paid like a closer.
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: They posted four or five guys, right?
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, one of the Triple Crown winners, Sato, over there.
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: He might be the second-best player available on the market,
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: and I think those players will sign. I mean, normally
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: they'd have a 45-day window, but in this case, with
• 59:01
  Speaker 2: the deadline December 1 hanging out there, I think you'll
• 59:04
  Speaker 2: see some resolutions quickly. I mean, that did happen last
• 59:08
  Speaker 2: time where I think even the players, they want to
• 59:11
  Speaker 2: know where they're playing the next year. And to have
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: the uncertainty of not knowing when the lockout is going
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: to end probably motivates some guys to get things done quickly.
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: So.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: I think it could be a really busy time. I
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: don't know if there's enough time for the trades to
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: play out. Generally, you're going to see those play out
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: later at the winter meetings. Likely, we won't have them
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: if there's a lockout. But I do think the free
• 59:36
  Speaker 2: agent market, even without a lot of huge names, could
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: crystallize quickly.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: Tom, thank you so much for your time. One of
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: the themes you stress throughout this is just the humanity
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: of the game. and you're bringing that humanity to life.
• 59:50
  Speaker 1: And it's like, we're trying to create passion in the
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: next generation of fans. You are absolutely the conduit of that,
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: whether that's asking questions to show Pat Murphy's personality, which
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: is so incredibly dynamic, or bringing out the humanity of
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: a guy like Jacob Mizorowski. Those are conversations that probably
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: couldn't have happened before, but for your equity and trust
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 1: with players and also your proximity to them during the games.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: And I know There was a resistance at the outset
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: of the inclusion of members of the media in the
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: game broadcast. And I think it's been awesome for the
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: fans to see the energy and enthusiasm and sometimes the
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: defeat and the devastation of those things real time. It
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 1: really brings out the humanitarian side of the game. These
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: guys are tremendously gifted at one thing, but they're humans.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 1: And the more we can connect to them as humans,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: the more we'll be connected to the sport that we
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: all love. So for that, I want to say thank you,
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: and thank you for your time here today. For the
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: listeners out there, thanks for joining us this Thursday and
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: every Thursday on Rosters to Rings.