Latest / Japanese America / S3E09: Costumes and Consequences: Who Gets to Wear What?

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S3E09: Costumes and Consequences: Who Gets to Wear What? · Japanese America

0:00
Every October, like clockwork, the leaves start falling, pumpkin spice hits the menus and the internet gears up the exact same annual shouting match. What is a fun, harmless costume and what is a straight up cultural appropriation?
0:11
And usually people end up talking past each other.
0:15
On one hand, you have people in Japan looking at foreign tourists wearing kimono and saying, kawaii, we love it.
0:23
On the other hand, Asian Americans see someone wearing a generic polyester geisha outfit to a college frat party and cringe into another dimension.
0:33
For this episode, we're not bringing on any outside guests.
0:35
It's just the two of us rolling up our sleeves to dig into the mess ourselves.
0:39
We're putting the finger wagging aside to dissect the real differences between celebrating a culture and reducing it to a joke.
0:45
Taking a magnifying glass to the aisles of Spirit Halloween and putting some famous pop culture controversies on trial.
1:17
Welcome to Japanese America.
1:19
This is season three, episode nine.
1:22
I'm Koji Steven Sakai.
1:23
And I'm Michele Malizaki.
1:25
Before we get into the heavy debates, we have to start with some self-incrimination. Michelle, what is the single most embarrassing, weird, or culturally questionable Halloween costume you ever wore as a kid?
1:36
Well, I don't have any Halloween outfit because we didn't celebrate Halloween.
1:42
Yay! However, now it's 2026 right now.
1:47
Thinking back like I had to dress up as a little Indian, you know, for the preschool play, dressed up as little Indian with the A hat and the outfit in sitting Indian style.
2:05
Is that something not allowed anymore? I'm not sure.
2:09
Yeah. Probably not. Indian is in like Native American or Indian from.
2:12
Yeah, yeah. Yes. American.
2:14
Native American Indian.
2:16
And it was cute. It was cute.
2:19
Like, uh, Hitori futari.
2:23
Like all the Indian boys or Indian girls, I don't know.
2:29
Yeah. When I was a kid, I remember I dressed up as a little girl, like in a dress and everything. And I think that that probably wouldn't work anymore. But back then, I thought it was really funny to dress up as a girl.
2:40
And I think that, uh. I don't think that you could do that anymore for. For lots of reasons.
2:45
Yeah. Yeah. Well. I don't know anymore.
2:48
I go to college and a lot of times I shouldn't say a lot of times sometimes I see people and I'm not sure.
2:57
I'm not sure if you know, it doesn't really matter boy or girl, but they dress in a free way.
3:05
Yeah, but I think I think mine was more of a joke.
3:08
And I think that's where it would have gone wrong.
3:10
Right? I think if we just dressed up as a woman, that's fine. Or a girl, that's fine. I think it's just because it was meant to be like a joke. Like, ha ha ha.
3:16
I'm dressed up as a girl.
3:18
I think that's what it was. Probably offensive now.
3:20
But were you're a cute girl.
3:23
I was a hot girl.
3:26
So maybe it's okay. I don't know.
3:29
Whenever this debate blows up online, someone inevitably chimes in with, well, I went to Kyoto and rented a yukata and the Japanese locals love it.
3:39
Japanese Americans. Japanese Americans are just being way too sensitive.
3:47
And on the surface that looks like a contradiction.
3:49
But it comes down to a fundamental difference being a cultural majority with the national sovereignty versus being an ethnic minority in America.
3:57
In Japan, Japanese people are 98% of the population.
4:02
When a non-Japanese person wears a kimono, it's not seen as an existential threat.
4:08
It's seen as tourism, soft power, and a compliment.
4:12
Nobody in Japan is being denied a job, harassed on the street, or told to go back where you came from because of their heritage.
4:21
Exactly. But in America, our history is totally different for Japanese Americans, especially during World War Two and the post-war resettlement era.
4:28
Our community is forcibly removed, incarcerated, and spent decades desperate to assimilate, just to prove we were, quote, loyal Americans.
4:36
During that same era, mainstream Hollywood was strapping white actors into yellowface and mocking our language and clothing.
4:42
Koji, how frustrating is it for you as a Japanese American when someone goes to Tokyo for one week vacation, rent a kimono and comes back claiming that proves Asian Americans have no right to feel offended?
4:58
I don't know if I'm frustrated.
5:00
It's just I think it's about context.
5:03
And I think that sometimes they like, like, like we were just talking about they don't see the context of being, you know, dressing up in a kimono in Japan is very different than dressing up in kimono here in America.
5:14
And also, I mean, it also depends like, you know, I see non-Japanese people wearing kimono for obon and that's fine because they're part of a community. They're part of a family.
5:23
They're part of, you know, like, and it's meant to be part of a celebration. And so I don't have a problem with people dressing up in kimono in general, but it's more about like how you're doing it and why you're doing it.
5:33
I think that's, that's the important thing.
5:35
What about you? I mean, do you have do you ever feel any, any ways about this?
5:40
I just it just hit me.
5:42
I am married to a white man in America, and we have a picture of us in kimono.
5:51
The. I have three children and with the Kakashi.
5:55
You know Kakashi, it's the big white hat that hides my horns and my husband in a nice kimono outfit with howdy and ah.
6:09
Is it okay? I'm not sure.
6:10
That's okay. I mean, I think that's okay. I mean, that's kind of what I'm talking about.
6:13
It's part of it's it's something that he did for you and something he did for as a part of a family. I think that's okay.
6:19
I mean, but he's not, you know, he's not there to make fun of the culture. He's not there.
6:22
He wasn't mocking, but like his family that like, you know, back, gosh, we've been married for 25 years.
6:29
So 25 years ago, the white parents in Ohio, my thought, oh, my son, our son wearing that weird outfit.
6:40
Ah, I don't know.
6:45
No. Yeah, I think that's I think that's fine.
6:47
I think the biggest thing to me is, are you doing it because, you know, like, what's your motivation?
6:53
What is the why are you doing it?
6:56
You know, what are you saying?
6:57
And you know, is it is it something that you're doing for a community for yourself?
7:03
And you know, what are you saying? Like, you know, those are all part, I think part of the things that we have.
7:07
To also, it was a proper outfit.
7:09
It wasn't a fake outfit.
7:11
So I guess that makes it okay.
7:13
Yeah. Like if you dress up as a sexy geisha, that would be a problem.
7:17
No, no, not my husband.
7:21
So when an Asian American sees a white person put on a cheap mock Japanese outfit for one drunken night on October 31st, it hits differently.
7:31
You get to take that costume off on November 1st.
7:34
But Asian Americans have to live with that real life baggage every single day.
7:39
To ground this, let's head into aisles of your average seasonal pop up costume shop and conduct an autopsy on three classic costumes that show up every single year.
7:49
First up, the sexy geisha are usually made of 100% flammable polyester cut up to the mid thigh with random dragons printed on it and packaged with a pair of plastic chopsticks for your hair.
8:05
And we will put pictures up in the show notes so you guys can see what we're looking at.
8:09
But first of all, chopsticks for are for eating noodles, not for holding up your hair, obviously.
8:15
No, no, I was like, shocked, you know, to see American people putting chopsticks in their head like that.
8:21
That's gross.
8:22
Yeah, that's like putting a fork in your hair.
8:25
I know. Like you don't put well unless you are aerial.
8:30
Yeah. Traditional kanzashi.
8:32
That's the hairpin. The traditional kanzashi hairpins are intricate works of art, not take out utensils.
8:41
But the best part of these commercial costumes is how people put them on in traditional kitsuki, kimono is folded left, over right.
8:49
If you fold the right color over the left, you are literally wearing.
8:54
In a way, corpse are dressed for traditional Buddhist funerals.
8:58
So when people wear these cheap robes backward, they think they look sultry, but they actually look like a walking cadaver.
9:09
Michelle, have you ever actually spotted someone out in the wild wearing a kimono yukata folded right, over left?
9:14
And did you ever stop yourself from yelling that they were dressed?
9:16
Okay, it was me. Ah! So. And what do you think about the sexy geisha to tell me both of those things?
9:25
Ah. You know, first time I saw it, I had, like, you know, I. I saw this sexy geisha kimono robes in Sears catalog.
9:35
I was like, ah, what is this?
9:37
Uh. And I didn't know how I felt it because I didn't know how to describe it because I never felt that way before in my life.
9:47
But now I think about it.
9:49
I was really offended because it's, it's our traditional outfit, not the sexy outfit to lure guys in.
9:56
And also, I mean, you talk about this in other episodes, but geisha aren't prostitutes.
10:00
No they aren't. Yeah. So they are entertainers.
10:03
What are they exactly?
10:04
They train to entertain.
10:06
They have to train singing, dancing and, uh. What else?
10:11
The instrument. Right.
10:12
Yeah. Instruments like koto or taiko.
10:15
And they they are supposed they are trained.
10:18
They, I think they. How do you call those.
10:21
Like they have to be apprentice to become a geisha.
10:25
And it's a real skill and it's a real job.
10:31
Not I mean, okay, prostitution is also a job, but like. But you can't just become a geisha.
10:40
You have to train to be a geisha.
10:42
Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I mean, for, for me, I think the, the weird thing about the sexy geisha is the just kind of what it says about Asian women, that Asian women are prostitutes and that kind of stereotype or they're, they're, they're, uh, they're, you know, they're very, uh, they're here for the entertainment of men.
10:59
Um, and I think that that's the, that's the issue that I think that, um, that it plays to.
11:04
Yeah. So I have to tell you, I, I, as I had a show, uh, uh, gosh, is that, is that Nishi Hongan ji.
11:11
I always get confused.
11:12
I should say the right word, the one closer to that one on the second street or third street.
11:20
Is that Higashi?
11:22
Oh, the one that goes in Higashi.
11:24
Oh, so I had a show at Higashi Honganji, an Obon festival.
11:28
So I bought a new yukata just for this.
11:31
And I wore it. I was, like, really proud.
11:34
I was ready to go. And then I just check on internet just to make sure I have it the right way. And I'm like, oh my gosh, I'm on the wrong way.
11:43
So I redid my kimono in the backstage, you know, like two minutes before I get on stage.
11:50
So you didn't even know about this?
11:51
I mean, no, because I dressed looking at the mirror.
11:55
Oh.
11:56
So I did it the wrong way.
11:58
I'm like, oh, shoot.
12:02
The next step is the mystical ninja head to toe black spandex pajamas, a face cowl, and a red dragon sash and plastic throwing stars.
12:10
And historically real Shinobi never wore all black.
12:15
Never spy survived by blending in real ninjas dressed up as like farmers, Buddhist monks, or local merchants so they wouldn't attract attention. The entire mythology of all black ninja suits actually come from traditional Japanese kabuki theater. The stagehands called Kuroko, wore all black, so the audience would pretend they were invisible while they moved props around.
12:34
Then playwrights started having invisible stagehands reveal themselves as assassin characters as a stage trick.
12:40
Western cinema picked that up and ran with it, and now it's on a plastic hanger for 29.99.
12:45
That's a good price.
12:50
I mean, I just I have to be honest, I've dressed up as a ninja multiple times and I know my son is dressed up as a ninja, but not the traditional version of it because the traditional version would look like a normal person. But now I know, Michelle, that from this point on, every Halloween costume, I'm just going to say I'm a ninja because I'm trying to, because I'm trying to blend in.
13:10
With the LA Dodgers hat.
13:12
Yeah, with my LA Dodgers hat, because then I'll look like everybody else.
13:15
And no one will suspect that I'm actually an assassin.
13:18
So so you just have to have that that star under your armpit.
13:23
Did they really? I don't think they really used ninja stars. I don't think that's a real thing.
13:27
I don't know. I, I when you go to ninja school I think that's what you study how to throw stars.
13:37
Okay, okay. Well, what do you think about this costume?
13:40
Uh, as opposed to the geisha.
13:41
Uh. Uh, I don't like it, but it's like California roll.
13:47
Like, uh, you know, when I saw California roll the first time, like. Yeah, that's not sushi.
13:53
But I ate it, I liked it.
13:56
Uh, this ninja outfit.
13:59
Uh, it's not ninja. But do I like it, or do I not like it?
14:03
I like it. It's okay, but like I.
14:06
But don't call it ninja.
14:07
It's not ninja.
14:09
It's like the chicken teriyaki.
14:10
Yeah, it's like chicken teriyaki. Yeah.
14:12
Well, I mean, for me, I think the big difference between like this and the geisha, for example, is that, I mean, and this is not as much as it was like 20 years ago or when I was a kid, but like Asian men were always seen as like weak and not strong.
14:26
And so like the ninja, the samurai, these are like the people that were seen as strong and powerful.
14:33
So like for me, when I was a kid, Ninja felt like it was, it felt like the one time that I could be like that people wanted to be Asian or Asian American or, you know, an Asian man.
14:42
And so I never felt like it was disrespectful.
14:45
But the more I learned, because I wrote a screenplay, for example, about ninjas, and the more I learned, I was like, oh yeah, this is like wacky because like, you know, like the, like you said, it's like finding out that, you know, chicken or Are California rolls, not sushi. Not sushi in the same way that.
14:59
Yeah, but it's a I mean, it's like a, a weird derivative of something, you know.
15:06
And finally, the inflatable sumo wrestler suit, the giant nylon fat suit where you turn on a little battery fan to look like an enormous wrestler with a fake topknot. Yeah.
15:21
Sumo isn't just a sport.
15:22
It's an ancient, deeply ritualized Shinto tradition that dates over a thousand years.
15:26
It's rooted in religious purification rites and serious physical discipline.
15:30
When you reduce that entire sacred tradition to an inflatable body shaming punchline for a frat party, that's where things slide straight from costume into caricature.
15:39
What do you think about the sumo suit me. Why?
15:43
Well, that this is mocking to, like, make because sumo wrestling is our national sport, and it is supposed to be very like a divine sport.
15:57
I think they play for Shinto God, and you can't make fun of sumo wrestlers.
16:03
And look at this outfit that you.
16:06
You might see it in a show note real sumo wrestler has less hair.
16:10
That's that's a obachan haircut, you know, obachan hairstyle and also real sumo wrestler like the champions, they have patches all over because they get hurt. This is brand new body.
16:23
He's not a good wrestler.
16:28
Koji, what is the absolute wildest or most culturally confused Asian Frankenstein costume you've ever seen on a rack or at the party?
16:37
All right. For me, the craziest.
16:39
The craziest, uh, kind of culturally confused Asian Frankenstein costume I think I've ever seen was. What was it I saw one time I saw a zombie geisha, sexy geisha.
16:52
Zombie geisha.
16:53
Zombie, sexy geisha. I remember at a party and I thought it was really a weird thing because because I do like zombies and I didn't really love the geisha part of it, but I like the zombies part of it.
17:04
So that was kind of confusing to me.
17:06
Um, and being sexy helped, I think, um, because it was supposed to be sexy uniforms. So that was probably the most confusing thing I've ever seen. What about you? Have you ever seen anything kind of confusing culturally?
17:16
No. really. I think that parties that I usually go to, people just show up and start drinking.
17:26
Okay.
17:27
So how do we actually draw the line in real life?
17:31
Since it's just the two of us today, we are serving as judge and jury.
17:36
Let's bring three real world cases before the bench in the Japanese American Court of Appeals.
17:41
All right, case number one, the anime fan, a non-Asian middle schooler, wants to dress up as Tanjiro from Demon Slayer, Goku from Dragon Ball or Sailor Moon.
17:50
Michelle, what's your verdict?
17:52
I think it's okay. Yeah, because they want to be the character that they adore. So I think it's it's good. What do you think?
18:01
And also, I think I mean, I think it's fine.
18:03
A lot of the kids actually, they go to Japanese school even to learn Japanese. And then they go to like read it in Japanese or, or watch the movie or TV show in Japanese.
18:09
And so I think it's more about an appreciation of a culture rather than like making fun of a culture or making fun of people. So I think it's fine to I agree with you.
18:19
Uh, Michelle, from your vantage point, having grown up in Japan, does it feel exciting or just just bizarre to see anime characters become so universally loved across America? The kids of every background want to be Tanjiro or Goku.
18:31
I don't know. I'm not really into anime, but I guess I'm a little flattered that you.
18:37
You know, people want to be Japanese, but then these characters don't really look like Japanese, so I don't know what to say, but they.
18:46
They look good. I, I've seen a lot of, um, people who dressed up in anime characters, especially like at the Kinokuniya in New York.
18:56
Yeah. They have on the second floor.
18:58
It's a manga floor. And people show up in, um, the costumes and they, they look cute.
19:03
I was like, wow, they look great.
19:05
I agree with you. All right.
19:07
So the Boston MFA kimono Wednesday is back in 2015, the Boston Museum of Fine Art invited visitors to try on a replica of the kimono from Claude Monet's painting La Japonesa and take photos.
19:18
Asian American activists protested it as orientalist exoticism.
19:22
Meanwhile, Japanese diplomats and visitors argued it was a wonderful cultural exchange.
19:26
Michele, what say you?
19:28
And we also have a picture of all this stuff as well.
19:30
Yeah. Um, it's I think it's not La Japonesa.
19:34
It's La Japaonese.
19:36
Okay. Yeah. Nice.
19:38
Yeah. Because it's supposed to be French.
19:41
No no no no. I like it because it's the real it's not the cheap looking outfit to make her make this girl look like that.
19:51
Picture it. She looks great.
19:54
And it's not mocking the culture, it's just recreating the picture, the painting, because I've seen girls who dress up in girls with pearls.
20:04
I mean, not girls. Girl with a Pearl earring.
20:06
And that if that was okay, this should be okay.
20:09
Okay. Yeah, I, I agree with you.
20:11
I think people are a little bit too sensitive about this.
20:14
I mean, I understand what they're saying, but also I think that it's it is I mean, Japanese people do dress up in kimonos, you know, and I mean, not maybe, you know, like not all the time and not everywhere, but they do.
20:25
And I think that that's ultimately okay.
20:27
And I agree with you. I think I don't think that they were there to mock or make fun of or, or to, to make it seem like it's not a part of a culture.
20:35
I think they wanted to be a part of a culture. And I think, you know, like I have a lot of family who are Japanese Americans who went to Japan and wore kimono.
20:42
And they loved it because it was a way for them to connect to the community in a way that, you know, that you that just going to Japan is not even good enough.
20:50
But when you dress up and you look, then it, then it feels, I think, very different.
20:55
All right. So in case three pop star is doing a job, how do you say this. What do you think?
20:59
Japonesque. Japonesque.
21:02
Japonesque.
21:03
Think back to Gwen Stefani's Harajuku lovers era with her silent entourage of Japanese dancers, or Katy Perry's 2013 American Music Award performance, where she dressed up as a geisha surrounded by cherry blossoms and paper screens.
21:16
What do you think about that?
21:17
Well, at first I when I saw that, I was like, eh, but they are good dancers and I'm kind of happy that Gwen Stefani picked them up as their back up dancers, because that made Harajuku world famous.
21:33
And although they didn't talk and, and I don't I didn't like that name.
21:39
I don't I didn't like their names like love Angel music baby.
21:44
And but I, you know, they should be like me.
21:49
You, me, Sammy. I don't know me like a Japanese name.
21:55
But one of them has to be.
21:56
Called.
21:56
I actually.
21:57
Yeah.
21:58
Sorry. Yeah. I think my issue isn't, isn't that they had that she had Japanese women behind her. I think it was more that like they were almost like Oriental rugs.
22:11
Like they're just like decoration and like, by not having them talk or do anything, it just feels like it's like, oh, look, the pretty rugs on the wall or the pretty oriental stuff, you know?
22:22
And I think that's probably what like what I didn't love about it.
22:25
And it's like, and I don't think it came from appreciation or love of Japan or Japanese culture or anything like that.
22:33
To me, it just felt like a continuation of like, you know, like, even like, um, oh my God, what's the, what's the movie with Scarlett Johansson? Oh.
22:38
Uh, the one in Tokyo. What's that movie?
22:42
Oh, the lost.
22:43
In.
22:43
Translation.
22:44
It's like we're just a background, you know, like Japan is just a background to, like, Western people, and it just feels a little bit, uh, it just makes everyone feel like a little bit two dimensional.
22:54
Yeah. Like a novel.
22:56
A novelty, like a weird like, oh, look how weird and funny it is in Japan. Or, you know.
23:02
Yeah, that's how I felt too, but I and then also it was commercialism, isn't it? Like she just wanted to have some name to make money.
23:10
I agree. Uh, if listeners want a foolproof checklist before picking out an outfit this October, here's our simple three point litmus test.
23:18
One character versus culture.
23:20
Are you dressing up as a specific individual with a name and a narrative, or are you dressing up as an entire ethnic group?
23:29
Two the neck up rule. Are you altering your natural skin tone, mimicking facial features, or faking an accent?
23:38
If so, stop immediately.
23:40
This is this. My this my this accent is all I got, so I'm not faking. Okay, number three, the punchline test is the costume meant to celebrate something cool, or it's someone's living heritage. The joke.
23:56
Follow those three rules and you can enjoy Halloween without ending up as a cautionary tale on social media.
24:01
To wrap things up on a fun note.
24:03
Michelle, if you were invited to a Halloween party starting exactly one hour and you had zero prep time, what is the best low cost costume you could pull together right now using only what's in your closet?
24:13
Well, I have a outfit.
24:16
The soccer referee outfit.
24:20
That I because I used to be a referee for kids soccer teams.
24:25
So I've. The outfit. So I put that on because I, I don't I don't know anything about soccer.
24:30
So that's a costume. But am I mocking the soccer culture?
24:34
Maybe a little bit maybe.
24:35
But I was a referee so that's okay.
24:38
And I, yeah, I also have a I also have some onesies.
24:41
Onesies. What kind of onesies? Just regular ones.
24:44
Like a bear onesie. And I have a pug onesie because I just got a pug and I also got a fish onesie.
24:52
Why do you have so many onesies?
24:53
I like onesies. It's like, you know, you don't have to think of any combination of outfit.
24:59
Just put one on.
25:02
That's pretty funny.
25:03
What about you?
25:04
I was gonna say ninja because then I could just dress up as.
25:06
Oh, yeah.
25:07
Yeah. But but I actually do have one.
25:09
I always have one costume ready to go if I ever have to get a costume.
25:13
Basically, I have baby chickens cut out.
25:15
And then I like pictures of baby chickens.
25:19
And I cut it out. And then I just.
25:20
I just taped them to my clothes.
25:23
And then I'm a chick magnet.
25:27
So I could do that in, like, five seconds.
25:29
Nice. I like that chick magnet.
25:33
Be sure to join us next month for season three, episode ten, Go for Broke.
25:38
The 442nd in the battle for belonging.
25:41
A couple episodes back, I think it was actually last episode we entered the painful choice choices of draft resisters and No-No boys and John Okada's novel in episode ten we're looking at the other side of that wartime coin, diving into the legacy of the highly decorated 442nd Regimental Combat Team, and what it meant for young Nisei soldiers to step out from behind barbed wire concentration camps and risk their lives on European battlefields just to prove they belonged in their own country.
26:04
It's an incredible, complex story of courage, sacrifice, and a fight for civil rights that you definitely won't want to miss.
26:13
Make sure to subscribe to Japanese America on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you listen, and leave us a rating and review.
26:19
Stay safe. Eat plenty of candy and remember, don't fold your kimono covers right.
26:24
Over left. Bye, everyone.
26:27
Bye bye.