Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / BTK: BIND, TORTURE, KILL perv church deacon turns serial killer

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BTK: BIND, TORTURE, KILL perv church deacon turns serial killer · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace bt K Bind Torture Kill.
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: That's quite a moniker a nickname BTK Bind Torture Kill.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: How did one of the world's most prolific serial killers
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  Speaker 1: manage to elude police for so long? And how did
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: this guy, a cruel and sadistic serial killer, lead a
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  Speaker 1: double life with a wife, a family, a position in
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  Speaker 1: the church, the works, even a government job. Crime Stories
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace and Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: Thank you for being with us, with me an all
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  Speaker 1: star panel to break it down and put it back
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  Speaker 1: together again. First of all, doctor Katherine Ramslin, Professor Forensic
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  Speaker 1: Psychology to Sale University and author of serial Killer, The
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  Speaker 1: Untold Story of Dennis Raider BTK Killer. Daryl Cohen, renowned attorney,
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  Speaker 1: former prosecutor, now defense attorney in the Atlanta jurisdiction. Cloyd
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  Speaker 1: Steiger thirty six years Seattle PD, twenty two years on
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  Speaker 1: homicide and author of Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer. Gary Jane
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  Speaker 1: Grant at Cloyd Steiger dot com. Doctor Kendall Crowns, Deputy
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  Speaker 1: Medical Examiner, Travis County, Texas. That's Austin and Nicole parton
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  Speaker 1: Crime Online dot com investigative reporter. But first take a
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  Speaker 1: listen to Tim Pijo Smith. It was very shocking for
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  Speaker 1: the officers. When they came up. They found the parents
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  Speaker 1: faced down in their own bedroom, full of clothed, obviously
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  Speaker 1: strangled bags over their head. The strangled corpse of nine
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  Speaker 1: year old Joe Junior was in another bedroom, but police
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  Speaker 1: were still to make another horrific discovery, his eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old sister, Josephine. Josephine had been put through a different
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  Speaker 1: type of death than the others downstairs, and she was
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  Speaker 1: obviously alive, put a rope around her neck and over
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  Speaker 1: some pipes. She was the target, the primary target, I
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  Speaker 1: believe for this. The other three Ontario children had only
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  Speaker 1: escaped because they were at school when the killer attacked. Wow,
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  Speaker 1: you were listening to crimes that shook the world, and
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  Speaker 1: Btks certainly one of them. What's amazing to me is
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  Speaker 1: how he alluded to police for so long, and when
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: you're looking at this particular crime, the one we just
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  Speaker 1: started with, you find that one child, an eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old little girl police believe, was the actual target and
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  Speaker 1: the rest of the family or seemingly collateral damage. So
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  Speaker 1: many questions Why did BTK treat eleven year old Josephine differently?
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  Speaker 1: Why was her motive death modus opera and I different
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  Speaker 1: from the rest of the family. How did one person
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  Speaker 1: manage to overpower an entire family, including the dad, subdue them,
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  Speaker 1: and murder them in order to take his time with
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  Speaker 1: the eleven year old little girl. This is just the
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  Speaker 1: tip of the iceberg. I don't believe we will ever
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  Speaker 1: know the extent of btk's murderers. You know, I want
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  Speaker 1: to start with doctor Katherine Ramslin, Professor Forensic Psychology to
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  Speaker 1: Sale University, Pennsylvania. Doctor Ramsselin, thank you for being with us.
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  Speaker 1: I find it very interesting that he used a completely
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  Speaker 1: different modus operandi MO when it comes to eleven year
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  Speaker 1: old Josephine, the little girl. Obviously, that's why police thought
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  Speaker 1: she was the target, But why would he switch emos,
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Ramslin? He actually was not the only target. He
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  Speaker 1: had a mother daughter fantasy and he had targeted Julie
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  Speaker 1: and Josephine together, but he was taken by surprise by
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  Speaker 1: joseph being home. He didn't expect that to happen, and
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  Speaker 1: so his entire plan was upset. As soon as he
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  Speaker 1: walked in the door. He had to get rid of
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  Speaker 1: Joseph and Joseph Jr. First and then have the mother,
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  Speaker 1: Julie and Josephine. It didn't go the way he expected
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  Speaker 1: to because he was going to add Dutch both of them,
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  Speaker 1: take them in a car and take them up to ab.
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  Speaker 1: None of that worked out. I believe Josephine was actually
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  Speaker 1: I think he thought he had killed those at being earlier.
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  Speaker 1: When she revived, he then decided to take her to
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  Speaker 1: the basement, and then it became his whole plan switched.
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  Speaker 1: It became more of a fantasy of having this young
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  Speaker 1: girl maybe then being the first man to touch her
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  Speaker 1: in a sexual way, and that was really what grolled
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  Speaker 1: him at that point. When you say b t K,
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  Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with what you're saying, because in all this
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  Speaker 1: time I have studied bt K, I never knew he
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  Speaker 1: had mother daughter fantasies as it relates to his serial killing.
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  Speaker 1: What was his mother daughter fantasy? But actually this for Blondes,
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  Speaker 1: that was the first thing. But the idea that he
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  Speaker 1: would have these women to him the south, or a
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  Speaker 1: mother and a daughter to himself was really just the
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  Speaker 1: sense of having control over them, but also I mean,
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  Speaker 1: he really never went after another young female again. He
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  Speaker 1: never went after a child again. So it really wasn't
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  Speaker 1: about pedophilia. It was really more the combination of a
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  Speaker 1: mother's daughter. It's just a fantasy that he had. Well,
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  Speaker 1: that's certainly something for me to think about, you know,
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  Speaker 1: to Darryl Cohen, former prosecutor, felony prosecutor at what was
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  Speaker 1: then one of the murder capitals of the world along
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  Speaker 1: with me in Fulton County, Georgia, Inner City Atlanta, Daryl,
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  Speaker 1: you know you have prosecuted and defended a lot of murders.
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  Speaker 1: I have prosecuted a lot of murders, including a serial killer,
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  Speaker 1: including spree killings, mass killings. But Daryl, the pleasure that
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  Speaker 1: BTK seemingly takes in murdering of planning a of course
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  Speaker 1: Dr Ramsel's the expert on this, but it seems to me, Daryl,
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  Speaker 1: he gets so much pleasure out of actually planning the murders. Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: even now, I'm furiated by this disgusting piece of Do
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  Speaker 1: you just want to take him out and just shoot him?
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  Speaker 1: I want to know, do you just want to go
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  Speaker 1: kill him? I want to torture him. I want to
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  Speaker 1: do the same thing again. We've got three votes here
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  Speaker 1: in the studio, and everybody's voting. Just just shoot him.
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  Speaker 1: I did not vote that because I believe in Lady justice.
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  Speaker 1: But really, Jackie and Brett all Sage shoot him, Nancy.
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  Speaker 1: I'd like to make sure that he gets a little taste.
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  Speaker 1: That's what I would like to have, is give him
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  Speaker 1: a little taste. He did a mother you know, dotor Ramslin. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: I appreciate all of your education and all of your
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  Speaker 1: hard were you're a psychology professor, but you know what,
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  Speaker 1: you just totally messed with my head right there, A
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  Speaker 1: mother daughter murder fantasy. See. I thought I knew everything
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  Speaker 1: about BTK. I now know how little I know. Okay,
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  Speaker 1: let me move forward. Take a listen to Crimes that
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  Speaker 1: Shook the World narrator Tim Pizet. BTK targeted neighborhoods where
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  Speaker 1: he thought he might find women at home alone. He
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  Speaker 1: would troll the area. He would find somebody that looked
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  Speaker 1: right to him, and that's how he would target his victims.
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  Speaker 1: Twenty five year old Nancy Fox lived alone, getting home
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  Speaker 1: late from working two jobs. Part of his protection against
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  Speaker 1: making mistakes was getting to noise victims gathering intelligence, where
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  Speaker 1: they live, what kind of car they drive, what time
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  Speaker 1: they come home, manual in literature, strangulation, hanging. These are
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  Speaker 1: very slow and agonizing ways to die. Sure, he did
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  Speaker 1: take victims to the brink of death, let them know
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  Speaker 1: that they were at the point of death, and that
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  Speaker 1: he allowed them to come back a little bit nighter.
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  Speaker 1: That method of allowing the victim to revive goes to
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  Speaker 1: his playing the role of God. He has within his
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  Speaker 1: power life and death or another human being. Crime Stories
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  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about bt K,
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  Speaker 1: as he is called, buying torturing kill. That's certainly not
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  Speaker 1: the way you want to go down in history. Your
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  Speaker 1: nickname and the high school annual is BTK buying torture kill.
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  Speaker 1: And we are hearing right there, how one of his
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  Speaker 1: modus operandi is to bring the victim to the brink
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  Speaker 1: of death, revive the victim, and I guess to doctor
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  Speaker 1: Katherine Ramslin sexually abusing the victim at the same time,
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  Speaker 1: because I know they're apparently with semen on some of
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: the victims. Yeah, he didn't. He only he did not
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  Speaker 1: actually have that mo with every victim. I think there
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  Speaker 1: was only one that he actually whispered her that he
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  Speaker 1: was the BTK killer. UMMS has then died fairly quickly,
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  Speaker 1: or in the case of the terrors, he didn't really
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  Speaker 1: realize how long it was going to help to strangle
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  Speaker 1: someone was not his intent to bring them back. So
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  Speaker 1: that's that's kind of a misunderstanding of what was happening.
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  Speaker 1: And I'm talking about it from what he has told me,
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  Speaker 1: not from any kind of behavioral analysis or anything. These
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  Speaker 1: are the things he has said. You'd have to evaluate
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  Speaker 1: whether you believe him or not. But he several victims
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  Speaker 1: died quickly, more quickly than he expected them to u
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  Speaker 1: and he wasn't really he didn't. He did not actually
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  Speaker 1: torture victims in the way we think of um some
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  Speaker 1: of the some of the victims who's been held for
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  Speaker 1: hours and tormented and burns and cut up, and that
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  Speaker 1: wasn't something he was doing. He was more of a
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  Speaker 1: psychological torturer. But it didn't last very long, in part
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  Speaker 1: because he was married with kids, had a job, he
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  Speaker 1: had social obligations, as he would say, and he had
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  Speaker 1: only a limited time period. It was to do these things.
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  Speaker 1: He didn't stop people. He stopped many people, many more
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  Speaker 1: than the victims that he actually had, and he did
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  Speaker 1: break into homes, he did watch for opportunities, but he
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  Speaker 1: wasn't as good as he claims he was in terms
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  Speaker 1: of knowing his victims. He did not know the oteros
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  Speaker 1: had a guide dog, or had a dog at all.
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  Speaker 1: He had no idea about that. There were a number
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  Speaker 1: of mistakes he made, and he was very lucky not
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  Speaker 1: to have been caught. Okay, now you're scaring me even
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  Speaker 1: more if I wasn't already scared by your mother daughter
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  Speaker 1: murder fantasy, and now he said the word which really
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  Speaker 1: nuts me up, Deployed Steiger, thirty six years of Seattle
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  Speaker 1: PD twenty two years Thomas Side and author. You know what,
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  Speaker 1: I can beat a criminal forensically. I can trip them
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  Speaker 1: up on their own words. I can analyze clues left behind,
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  Speaker 1: I can compare finger I can do all that on
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  Speaker 1: my own. But you know what I can't beat luck, luck,
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  Speaker 1: luc k when you've got a lucky criminal, much less
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  Speaker 1: a lucky killer. No, that's something you can't beat. If
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  Speaker 1: this guy is lucky and he manages to elude a witness,
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  Speaker 1: or he gets out of the home just in time
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  Speaker 1: to make it to his church deacon's meeting, or or
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  Speaker 1: to clock in at work. That is dumb luck and
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  Speaker 1: that's hard to beat. Kloyd Steiger, that is hard to
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  Speaker 1: beat you. I hate a lucky killer. I hate a
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  Speaker 1: lucky killer. The thing about BTK is this would never
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  Speaker 1: happen in today's era because just his methods, owned by necessity,
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  Speaker 1: leave a tremendous amount of forensic evidence. And he would
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  Speaker 1: have been caught long ago in this era. But back
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  Speaker 1: then those tools weren't available with the detectives. You know.
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  Speaker 1: That leads me to another question. I'm glad you said
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  Speaker 1: that because to doctor Kendall Crowns, the deputy medical examiner
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  Speaker 1: joining us out of Travis County, Texas, that's Austin. I wonder,
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  Speaker 1: doctor Crowns, if they authorities have compared his DNA to
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  Speaker 1: other unsolved murders and or rapes. How would that work?
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  Speaker 1: How would that work? What would you just go to CODAS,
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  Speaker 1: the DNA Data Bank and put it in. I mean
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  Speaker 1: certainly they would have done that, don't you think, doctor Crowns. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I do think they. I think they actually have tried
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  Speaker 1: to compare him to some other unsolved mysteries and the
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  Speaker 1: surrounding areas including Oklahoma and North Texas, and so far
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  Speaker 1: heaven found any matches with him. Okay, doctor Katherine Ramslin,
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  Speaker 1: you've made me leave my tea. Now I'm hitting the
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  Speaker 1: hard stuff to coffee thanks to you and your mother
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  Speaker 1: daughter Murder fantasy. Guys, we're talking about BTK buying torture Kill.
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  Speaker 1: And you just heard doctor Ramslin. And what an all
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  Speaker 1: star panel we've got Ramslin, Cohen Steigger Crown, Nicole Parton.
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  Speaker 1: Nicole Parton, we just heard doctor Ramslin mentioned his other life.
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  Speaker 1: He is and you know what I should have been
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  Speaker 1: suspicious day one. He's a dog catcher who wants to
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  Speaker 1: catch dogs. I mean, you've seen hydre One Dalmatian, as
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  Speaker 1: you've seen every Disney movie there is about dogcatchers, Beethoven
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  Speaker 1: for example. Who are these people that want to catch
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  Speaker 1: dogs and then put them in the pound ultimately to
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  Speaker 1: euthanize them. He's a dogcatcher with a family. What more
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  Speaker 1: do we know, Nicole Parton, about Dennis Rader, also known
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  Speaker 1: as Buying Torture Kill, one of the most prolific serial
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  Speaker 1: killers to ever want the face of this earth. Go ahead,
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  Speaker 1: and Nicole, what do we know about the guy we
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  Speaker 1: know that if he was your next door neighbor, you
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  Speaker 1: would think he was a normal, kind family man. He
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  Speaker 1: was the president of the Deacons Association at his church.
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  Speaker 1: Oh Lord, he was known. He was known as a
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  Speaker 1: tremendous leader with the boy Scouts. Oh, dear Lord in Heaven,
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  Speaker 1: both of my children are Scouts. I wish you hadn't
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  Speaker 1: told me that. Go ahead. He would actually leave Scout meetings.
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  Speaker 1: One of the killings happened during a Scout meeting. He left,
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  Speaker 1: performed the murder, went back to the meeting as though
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: nothing happened. So what wait, I'm going to circle back
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  Speaker 1: to you right there, Daryl Cohen, did you hear what
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  Speaker 1: Nicoleparton just said. Can you imagine his oh so pleased
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  Speaker 1: with himself leaving the Scout meeting and the Scout meetings
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: go from like seven thirty to nine or nine fifteen
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  Speaker 1: on a weeknight, I might add, leaving the Scout meeting.
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  Speaker 1: And he's one of the leaders, Darryll. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: if it was this way then, but now you have
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  Speaker 1: to have multiple leaders. You can't just have one leader
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: there with all the new rules set in place, Thank Heaven,
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  Speaker 1: My husband is a leader, well, a volunteer, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: a volunteer, so I'm with Lucy and her Scout meeting.
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  Speaker 1: John David has his dad and sometimes we switch it up.
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  Speaker 1: But can you imagine Darryl. He is thrill of leaving
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  Speaker 1: the Scout meeting, committing a murder and then getting back
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  Speaker 1: to the Scout meeting before it was over. Nancy, I
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  Speaker 1: cannot get in this man's head. I would have been
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  Speaker 1: delighted to prosecute him, but getting into his head the
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  Speaker 1: elation that he apparently showed from I'm a great Scout
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  Speaker 1: leader to I Am going to be a diabolical, carefully
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  Speaker 1: planning murderer and torturer after binding and then I'm going
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  Speaker 1: back to the Scout meeting. It's a man. You just
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  Speaker 1: see him. Very often they're held in school classrooms or
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  Speaker 1: in church wreck centers. I could just see him right
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  Speaker 1: now getting out of his vehicle and walking across the
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  Speaker 1: parking lot and going back into the Scout meeting where
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: all the little boys are in there, and looking down
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  Speaker 1: at his hands and wondering if he got all the
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  Speaker 1: blood off. Jackie, you have a really interesting sound cut
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  Speaker 1: to play for me. Take a listen to this guys.
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  Speaker 1: Six years after the murder of Marine Hedge, another body
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  Speaker 1: was found. Sixty two year old Dolores Davis was enjoying
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: her retirement in a house on the outskirts of town.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: As Missus Davis slept, someone held a concrete block through
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the glass door of her home. Sounds like a bomb probably,
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  Speaker 1: And I think she jumped out of bed, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: you're trying to get your bearings, figure out what and on.
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  Speaker 1: And here's this animal standing there. And then he went
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  Speaker 1: ahead and strangled her with her pantyhose. Police discovered the
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  Speaker 1: body under this bridge, ten miles north of Wichita, but
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: they didn't know just how close the killer was. Bt
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  Speaker 1: K had set up a complex alibi to ensure he
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: would not become a suspect. It was about a mile
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  Speaker 1: and a half away from his house. It set up
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  Speaker 1: that he was on a scouting trip because it was
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: close to his house, so he thought he was too
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: close to home that he thought that he might become
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: a suspect. Wow, even used a scout out. In Time
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  Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace, bt K bide torture and kill.
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: How did he do it? That's what we're talking about
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: right now. How did he become unapprehended one of the
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  Speaker 1: most prolific serial killers ever. You know, Back to doctor
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: Katherine Ramsland, professor forensic psychology to Sailed University in Pennsylvania,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: an author of serial Killer, The Untold Story of Dennis Rader,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: the BTK Killer. I also did not know, as much
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: as I have studied this case, how he differed, how
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: he varied his ms. Did I just understand correctly that
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: he dumped a body under a bridge and there were
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: two women that he actually took out of the house
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  Speaker 1: in part because he had heard about the FBI profilers
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: coming in and he wanted to change it different. Oh man,
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: you know, Ramsland, you are really something because you just
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: said he wanted to just do something different. That's the
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: way Jackie sometimes will change up her outfit or her hair.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to do something different. But you know
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  Speaker 1: what you write in his mind dumping the bodies under
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  Speaker 1: the bridge, which was just oh, I'll do something different
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: this time, just to you know, screw up the FBI
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: profiler's head. Well, he actually wasn't going to put her
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: under a bridge. It was a foggy raineye like snowy night.
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  Speaker 1: He was looking for an abandoned barn because that was
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: part of his fantasy. He wanted to take her there
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  Speaker 1: and he couldn't find it, so he finally just put
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: her under the bridge in the culvert. So that wasn't
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  Speaker 1: the plan. Again, many of his plans did not work
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: out the way he expected them to. The other one
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  Speaker 1: marine hedge. He took out of her house and took
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  Speaker 1: her to his church where he had taped up plastic
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  Speaker 1: around the windows, and he wanted to take pictures of
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  Speaker 1: her body in other women's underwear that he had stolen,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: and then he baked her by so he is she dead?
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: Her alive? When he takes her to the church, he
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: was dead, Okay, dead, So he wants to address her
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: dead body. Yes, and they put another lady stolen underwear
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  Speaker 1: on the dead body. Yes. You know, sometimes I think
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  Speaker 1: I've seen it all, and then I meet somebody no offense,
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  Speaker 1: doctor Ramslin, like doctor Katherine Ramslin, and I learn I
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  Speaker 1: am at the tip of the iceberg. Okay, go ahead,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: doctor Ramslin, because I really want to hear this. So
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  Speaker 1: he takes the dead body to the church. The church
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  Speaker 1: plastics up the windows. He has a polaroid camera. He
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  Speaker 1: poses the body in the underwear that he prefers because
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: he has stolen it from other women, and he has
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  Speaker 1: the whole collection of this stuff and he poses it
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: and takes these pictures. When he's done, he takes her
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: body and dumps it into a ditch that's actually pretty
• 21:48
  Speaker 1: close to the corpse of a dog that he himself
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: didn't see. And then with Dolores Davis, he actually wanted
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: to take her to a barn because his ultimate fantasy
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: was to work on a body inside a barn. They
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: had a whole fantasy, very complex fantasy. That's about the
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: fourth time you've mentioned dotor Ramsland a fantasy a BTK
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: by torture killed dogcatcher, dnnish writer barn. What's with him
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: and the barn? Well isn't a Martin perssee? It was
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: he was influenced by HH Holmes in the Murder Castle
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: at Chicago. But there are no there are no hotels
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: like that in Wichita. So he fantasized his torture stuff
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: inside a barn in one of the abandoned barns in
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the country rooms. Nicole Barton joining me Crime Online dot
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter Nicole, I'm sorry, I haven't already gotten
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: to you. But listening to Katherine Ramsland informs me and
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: scares me at the same time. And she ain't. Nicole
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: knows a lot about this because she has actually spoken
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: to BTK. So Nicole parton, give me a rundown, a
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: fingernail sketch of what we suspect BTK did. How many victims?
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: But I also want to hear about him. Let's start
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: with him. What do we know about him? We know
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: he was a family man. His daughter speaks of Christmas
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: time with her father, trimming the Christmas tree by rides
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: in the afternoon. She talks about him being all around
• 23:30
  Speaker 1: great guy that she never would have imagined this. His
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: co workers say he was a normal guy, come to work,
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: never missed the day, never missed a Sunday morning church service.
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: He was an ordinary man, not what we think of
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: a serial killer. And we also know that he would
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: would often walk by one of the one of the
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: ladies that he killed. His last victim, Dolores Davis, lived
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: not too far from him, and in the afternoons he
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: would take his daughter for a stroll and they would
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: weigh but Dolores on her front porch and say hi
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: and speak to the neighbor a friendly manner, and everyone
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: spoke of him as a super nice guy. I'm just
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: trying to absorb what you just said, Nicol Parton, and
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you're correct, but it flies in the face
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: of almost all our preconceived notions regarding serial killers. And
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: the reason I say serial killers is because there's so
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: much planning and a forethought to it. It's not like
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: a murder that occurs at a bar. You get mad,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: you pull your gun, bam. A serial killer plans the
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: next killing. They're like a predator, Like they're like a
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: wolf roaming around your community, your neighborhood, and they're sneaking
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: around trying to find your pet in the backyard or
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: a rabbit or whatever they can find. They are the
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: predator and the victims are the prey. To Chloyd Steiger,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: author Seattle's Forgotten serial Killer, and Gary Jane Grant, Cloyd,
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: you don't normally think of a serial killer such as
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Ted Bundy or Wayne Gacy or a hell Ramrez as
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: having a normal domestic family life the way Innicle Parton
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: is describing it. Why Cloyd, Well, you know you you
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: don't necessarily hear that. But if you talk to the
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: people that knew those those killers, they would say he
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: just was a normal guy pretty much, you don't live
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: for the party kind of guy you never can tell
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: five of the party. Yeah, that's what they would say.
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: Who Ever said a serial killer was the life of
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: the party, people that don't know he was, they knew
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: him outside that killer. I've actually got one gay exactly
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: because um, isn't it correct? To doctor Katherine Ramsland, Gayce
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: was the life of the party. He played a clown
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: at children's birthday part parties. But other than Gacy, I
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: don't really remember serial killers ever having been described as
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: gregarious or the life of the party. I think Ted
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: Bundy was pretty charismatic. People are like, dude, that's the
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: life of the party so much. But here that's true.
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: The two of you are right. Bundy was very charismatic. Somehow,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: when I look at Raid I don't see charisma. I mean,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: I don't see what you guys are talking about. But okay,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: I accept it. You're right, guys. I want you to
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: take another Listen to Tim Bijo Smith in Crimes That
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Shook the World. This is your cup. Five pleas hear
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: the killer's voice for the first time. Three coach to
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: his narcissism and need for attention. Here I am. I'm
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: calling you to let you know that I did it
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: and you still can't catch her off at LAE rushed
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: to the call box, but when they got that Lakella
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: was gone. It's part of his power, It's part of
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: his game that he's playing with the police. Two months later,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: BTK made his next move. A package arrived at this
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Wichita TV station. It was a package that contained not
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: only a letter, but a poem, and I have a
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: portion of the poem here. It was titled, Oh death
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: to Nancy. What is this that I see cold icy
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: hands taking hold of me? For death has come. You
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: all can see Hell has opened up its gate to
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: trick me. And then it's signed BTK. Okay. Mom train
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: of thought was that he is taunting. Part of the
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: pleasure he takes in murders is taunting the victim's family.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: He did that. He haunted police and newspapers, luring them
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: along the garden path, taunting them in the sense that
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: he could outsmart them. Crime stories with Nancy Grace, we
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: are talking about Dennis Raider bind torture kill is his nickname.
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Joining me, Doctor Kendall Crowns is a renowned medical examiner,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: the Deputy Medical Examiner in Travis County, Texas, that is Austin,
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: doctor Crowns. Before I get to your unique connection to BTK,
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: let me ask you, other than what BTK has told
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: Doctor Ramsland, how would we be able to look at
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: a body and determine that the victim had been nearly murdered,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: for instance, asphyxiated and then brought back, allowed to breathe
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: be torture for a while, then nearly murdered, then brought
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: back and then finally killed. Can you tell that by
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: looking at the body? Or do we have to take
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: his word for it, because I'd certainly take that with
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: a box of salt. So they're with people that are
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: near strangulations, they'll often get particular hemorrhages, which are these
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: little pinpoint hemorrhages all over the face and eyes, and
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: those are often caused by incomplete compression of the vessels
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: of the neck. But you also see that in typical
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: strangulations where the person is held and then they are
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: completely killed with no torture aspect to it. So it's
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: not one hundred percent to know when you see particular
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: hemorrhages that there was element of them coming back and
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: then being strangled again. So it really does come down
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: to just taking his word for it, which is unfortunately.
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: I saw it also in the Core delaying killer who
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: kidnapped who was just writing by I think on the Interstate,
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: saw two little children at an above ground pool in
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: their backyard. This in the middle of very very rural,
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: very dense forest. Happened to get a glimpse of these
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: children from the Interstate, circled back, abducted Dylan and Shasta
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Gronee the way I recall the case, and we'll do
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: that over and over and over with the little boy Dylan,
• 30:46
  Speaker 1: and we knew that because the sister Shasta divulged it.
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: But I see what you're saying, doctor Kendall Crowns, because
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: once you ultimately asphyxiate the victim and you get the
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: particular hemorrhages, you can't tell were they there during torture
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: or were they the result of the actual strangulation. You know,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: doctor Kendall Crown's is from the same hometown as BTK
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: buying torture kill. In fact, BTK was a student of
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: doctor Crown's father, who taught criminal justice at Witchtaw State.
• 31:21
  Speaker 1: And I believe your father had a theory that BTK
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: was one of the students, did he not, and then
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: he turned out to be correct. Yeah, that's correct, Nancy.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: My dad always felt the way that it was methodical,
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: how it seemed planned out, and then his taunting. He
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: always thought it was someone that was possibly involved with
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the law enforcement field or had a background in criminal justice.
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: And because the BTK had left evidence at the libraries
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: and at Witchtow State, my dad theorized that he could
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: be a criminal justice student, and of course he was
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: proved right years later. You know, not only did he
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: leave evidence, he sent letters to the Witchita Eagle claiming
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: credit for the murder of twenty eight year old Vicki
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Weisurely in nineteen eighty six. The investigators knew the letter
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: was legitimate. He also would leave He left a package
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: in a truck at which to a hardware store, and
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: even though we're security cameras, you couldn't really identify the
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: person that did it. He sent messages in serial boxes
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: marked b t K. He sent a box with a
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: bound and hung doll in a reference to one of
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: his victims. But we actually have sound of BTK, and
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: I want you to hear BTK. This is your cut
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: eighteen Jackie from Oxygen Snap. This is BTK killer Dennis
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: Rader in his own words. You know, they talked to
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: me about, uh, you know, giving the car or whatever. Money.
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: I guess he didn't have every much money. And there
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: I realized that, you know, I was already I didn't
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: have a mask on everything. They already could id me,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: and made made a decision to go ahead and put
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: him down, I guess or strangling. I had never strangled
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: anyone before, so I really don't know how much pressure
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: you had to put on a person or how long
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: it would take A strangled missus Oltarrell and she went
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: out or passed out. I thought she was dead. She
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: passed out, and I strangled uh Josephine. She passed out
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: or I thought she was dead, and then I went
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: over and put U and then put a bag on.
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: Junior said, you are hearing bt K in court and
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: he is so um calm and so analytical the way
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: he is describing why he committed the murders. But I
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: really don't think there's there was any alternative. Once you
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: go into a home the way he did, the ending
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: had to be for him anyway. A murder Let's hear
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: cut twenty plays Dennis Writer BTK in his own words,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: Josephine had woke back up. I took her to the
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: basement and eventually hunk her. I has some sexual fantasies,
• 34:31
  Speaker 1: and that was after she was hung. Went through the
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: house kind of cleaned it up. It's called the right
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: hand e earle. You go from a river room, picked
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: everything up. I think I took mister or Carroll's watch there.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: I guess I took a radio. I had forgot about that,
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: but apparently I took a radio. You are hearing bt
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: K in his own words to doctor Catherine Ramslin, who
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: has literally written the book serial Killer, the Untold Story
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: of Dennis Writer the BTJ Killer, Catherine, I'm having a
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: hard time reconciling that he had a wife and a
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: family and a job in a position within the community
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: with his double life as a serial killer. What exactly
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: was the sex fantasy that he wanted to live out
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: with all of his victims. But first of all, he
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: describes himself as a good man who did some bad things,
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: so he fakes predominantly, he's a pretty good guy. His
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: fantasy life came from when he was a teenager, and
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: actually taking the radio from the Ota house was a
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: nod to the Clutter murders, which became in called Blood
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: Trivica Ponti's book, because when he was fifteen, he heard
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: the news over the radio and the fact that they
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: were bound with rope was sexually exciting to him. For him,
• 35:57
  Speaker 1: it's all about binding, and even hanging one of these
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: victims from a pipe was what he would do to himself.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: He would hang himself in autoerotic activities, so all of
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: this kind of flowed into what he was also thinking
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: about for victims. It was all about bondage and taking
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: oxygen away and feeling dominant over them. So as part
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: of his own sex gratification, he would hang himself, and
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: therefore he transposed that onto his murder victims' asphyxiating them
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: pretty much. Yeah, I mean, even when the police took
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: found all his dash of photos and drawings and whatnot,
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: they found all these polaroids. He actually probably originated the selfie.
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: He had a remote controlled polaroid camera where he would
• 36:46
  Speaker 1: take pictures of himself, burying himself, wrapping himself in plastic,
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: hanging himself upside down, right side up, in all different
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: positions because bondage was really around him. How did his
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: wife not know what was going on down the basement,
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: Doctor Ramslin. He didn't do it in the face. He
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: went out at the abandoned properties. He went under bridges,
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: in which tall he found all kinds of places for
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: doing it. He went into his parents' home and did
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: it in their basement. But his wife, he claims, she
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: caught him twice wearing her slip and doing auto erotic activity.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: She says she did not. I'm a little more concerned
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: about hanging himself and wrapping himself in plastic under a bridge,
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: now wearing a lady's slip. You know I would do.
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: There were kids of him, grapps completely and plastic, buried
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: in a sand pit. What I don't understand. That's why
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: this guy could not get the death penalty. But that
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: is the government's decision in that jurisdiction. The father of
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: two Dennis Raiders serving one hundred seventy five years in
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: president El Dorado Correctional Facility, Prospect Township, Kansas, for the
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: murders and still garnering fame and singlephants and groupies. Nancy
• 38:11
  Speaker 1: Grace Crime Story signing off Goodbye friend,