Latest / Hook,Line,&SinkHer / Season 1 Episode 10 Deep Waters: ADHD in Education

Transcript

Season 1 Episode 10 Deep Waters: ADHD in Education · Hook,Line,&SinkHer

• Jayson St.Croix: Welcome back to Hook, Line, & SinkHer the podcast where we cast out big questions, real and honest conversations, and occasionally get distracted by whatever shiny object just floated by. I'm Jayson,, and joining me, as always, is Dr. Amy St. Croix. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: How are you? Jayson St.Croix: I'm doing well today. How are you? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I'm great. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, last time we talked about technology and whether you're the one holding the rod or the fish. Today we're going into deeper water. ADHD in education. Education is where a lot of us first get the message, spoken or unspoken, about what kind of learner we are. For people with ADHD, that message isn't always kind. So today we're gonna look at it from three angles. First, we're gonna look at it from the parent seat. What it's like to guide a child with ADHD through school. Second, Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Ha ha ha. Jayson St.Croix: second, the educator seat, what it's like to teach with an ADHD brain of your own. And third, where education meets the law and why what Dr. St. Croix does is different from what an education attorney provides. A quick note before we dive in, everything we say today is general information and not legal advice. Dr. St. Croix let's start with the parents. When a parent first suspects ADHD might be affecting their child at school, what does that usually look like? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Well, it's it's funny because sometimes the very thing that a school points to as evidence is actually what we're seeing as success. So like for example, let's talk grades Not a concern. Then often school doesn't have a concern. There's no concern, the child is doing well. However, we have to look beyond that because if a parent is, you know, supporting a student during like, let's say, homework time, that they have, you know, it's supposed to be a 10-minute homework assignment that you can do independently. And a student is either taking, you know, an hour to do a 10-minute assignment, or if the parent is needing to scaffold that assignment for the child. So what I mean by that is, are you able to independently have your students sit, you know, wherever? Our kids used to sit in the think tank, regardless if it's, you know, at the at a desk in their rooms or, you know, at the dining room table, wherever, wherever your student does homework. But if they need you to sit with them and break it down and read the directions and have you give some modeling or maybe talk them through it, redirect. them back to the homework, that's that's a telltale sign that there's some challenges that are there. So sometimes that what we have to remember is that a kid's grades, they tell us what they've achieved, but they don't necessarily tell us what the cost was for them to achieve it. If that makes any sense? And I think that you know we really need to take a look at are we measuring a kiddo's independence? dependence Or are we measuring the effectiveness of the support system that's surrounding that student? And I think as educators, at least for myself, I don't want to speak for you, but we can certainly recognize that there's children in a classroom that receive more support at home than other children in a classroom, right? So are they are those kids more successful because they receive that additional support at home? Sometimes, sometimes not. It just, you know, it depends on, and it's something that we have to look at. If those supports are in place at home and a child's grades are strong, we have to acknowledge that there's still potentially challenges there, right? If the homework requires more adult intervention than actual student independence, we need to ask what that assignment is measuring and what is it telling us. Jayson St.Croix: We we've talked about this before about how a child, and I believe it was on ADHD and girls on that episode, where they are doing all they can just to hold it together to sit there and be compliant through their school day. And then when they get home to use a kid's term, they just crash out. And it's usually during that homework time. And if a student doesn't have the supports that you just mentioned at home to be successful, then it can be a little bit hairy for mom and dad. You know what I Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: mean? But Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Definitely. And and I think that the other part is is this is all philosophical, right? As teachers, where you believe that homework line lies. So I remember when we were both teaching, you were teaching math and I was teaching English. You were adamant, I don't know if you remember this, but you were adamant as a math teacher that you needed to do homework at least three times a week, if not every night, right? And I never gave homework. Because I had literally what you just said. I had the belief of that if a child worked during the school day, they weren't, you know, some kids couldn't even keep it together. Everybody didn't have the same support system. Like, and I and I couldn't determine from homework how much of it was done independently, how much of it wasn't. So beyond practice, for me, homework, I never s saw value in homework. And again, I don't know if you remember this, but you were maybe, I don't know, maybe 12, 15 years in. And I remember you coming home. I was an administrator by then. And I remember you coming home and just constantly complaining about homework not being done. And me lecturing you about how ridiculous it was that you were complaining that homework wasn't getting done. And I remember saying this to you very clearly. I remember saying to you, is this the hill you're going to die on? Is homework Homework the one you're gonna stab the flag in and you're gonna die on. Or are you gonna change how you teach so that you don't have to have homework? And do you remember you struggling with that and then me saying to you, I would present my lessons like this, or this is how I would schedule a class period. And you did that. And you and you did flip to no homework. Do you remember that? Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, I listen I do and I listen to you and your tangents and guess what I do now? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: No homework? No homework. No. Jayson St.Croix: No homework. We do not we do I do not give the kids homework in math class. That's correct. We do it together. One, because not everybody has the support system at home where we want our students to be successful. And I believe sometimes the best support that the student can have is me, the teacher in the classroom. And that get that gives everybody a fair shot. And to be honest with you, there comes a certain point in time where grades are hollow and they don't really mean anything until they get to a certain level of schooling. So you got the student that's doing the compliant work and it's not really measuring truly accurately what they know. But that's a different conversation for a different podcast. But my question to you is talking about students doing homework at home, what separates or how can a parent separate a child who can't from a child who won't? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, because they sometimes look like the same kid, right? We have one of those kids. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. We do. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: W yeah. We don't have two, we have one. One of them is like that, right? But I think that, you know, this becomes a very fine line because you can't eliminate accountability. Kids, regardless if you have ADHD or you don't have ADHD, you still have to be accountable. The expectations might be more flexible, but you still have to have accountability, right? So it doesn't mean that we eliminate expectations or accountability for those kids at all. It means that we need to understand what's interfering with their inability to do whatever task is in front of them. So, right now, you're talking specifically about homework. So the behavior could potentially be indicating or communicating to us that there's a skill missing, right? And that skill doesn't have to be a mathematics skill because were doing math homework. It could be an executive functioning skill. It could be the fact that, it could be that the homework is too hard. It it potentially could be that they can't do it independently, but it doesn't have to be. So when those kinds of things happen, we can't punish a kid into developing a skill, right? If they haven't been taught. So I'll give you an example. And I know you know this about me. This burns my butt. When kids get recess taken away when they haven't completed some academic whatever, an academic task, an academic demand, something, It burns my bottom when it gets taken away. Because again, it's you can't give a consequence and punish a kid into developing a skill. So if the skill is executive functioning, like our own daughter, we've said this before, she's done her homework. We know it's done. We were the parents that sat down with her and spent two hours on homework, but she doesn't have the executive functioning skills to go back in the next day, organized, even though it's in the color-coded folder that we helped create that system for, and turn that homework in, right? So she she's I'm making this up, but so she's punished and can't go outside for recess for 10 minutes because she didn't she didn't do put her homework in. We're punishing kids for not developing a skill. That's wrong. I mean, know that I'm being very blunt about that, but I feel strongly about that. Because the goal of behavior intervention should not simply be to get a child to do something. That's compliance. It should be to help that kid develop the skills to be able to do something differently and successfully in the future. I know you remember this from when I was a principal. I used to say all the time, discipline referrals should never be a gotcha. Jayson St.Croix: All right. I have a tough one for you here because you have both sides of my next question with a lot of experience on both sides. So I want you Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: to come at the perspective of this question from pre-doctorate degree. Okay. Just Mama Bear. You're coming at this one from Mama Bear. Mama Bear. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: mama bear? Mama bear. Okay. Jayson St.Croix: What does the evaluation and school process feel like from a parent side? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I would say overwhelming. I would say overwhelming. And again, I'm not talking from personal experience, in the sense that what I went through or what we went through when our children were being evaluated, but obviously as an administrator, I very much would have mamas that were literally brought to tears. I would say overwhelming. Jayson St.Croix: Okay. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yep. Jayson St.Croix: So this is actually gonna tie into my tangent of the week, but as a parent and you suspect your child may or may not be neurodivergent or ADHD or you know, you want to start that evaluation process. How should parents talk with the teachers and or schools and or service providers so it feels like a team and not a standoff? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, so you know. It's it's really about collaboration and sometimes that's really difficult. I know I it breaks my heart to say that, but sometimes it really is. But if a mom or a dad has a concern, start with the classroom teacher. That's the that's the appropriate place to start, regardless of the age or the level of your child, right? If they're in kindergarten or they're, a freshman, start with the classroom teacher. They're the person that is instructing your child for the greatest number of minutes in regards. to your subject area. After that, you can try to find a way that you can be supportive. If you need to move beyond that and you're having questions regarding, you know, an actual evaluation through the CSE, you can always reach out to the principal of the building. You can always reach out to the director of special ed. Those are both places where resources are very knowledgeable and they can help guide you to, you know, potentially doesn't necessarily mean you need to, but potentially a 504 process, potentially an IEP process, maybe visiting your your pediatrician. All of those kinds of things are are things that administrators or that leadership level can support with guiding you into how do we do this appropriately. And then I think ultimately we really need to you know understand that a mom and a dad, a mom or a dad, can take and in writing, always in writing. If you say it, it didn't happen. It always should be in writing. You can request that your child be evaluated. So those are kind of the steps that happen. And schools really do have a lot of resources. So for instance, the MTSS process, which is the multi-tiered system of supports, that's a three-tiered system that is put in place. When I look at it or I want to think of it, that might help moms and dads understand, MTSS really are the supports that are put in place prior to that level of support that comes with an IEP. So we have, tier one is the universal supports, tier two is a little bit heavier supports, and then tier three is that that most individualized support before Jayson St.Croix: Intensive. No. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: we head into the CSE world. Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, so Mama Bear, all Mama Bear with a daughter who we have clearly outed that has ADHD. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: We outed her. Jayson St.Croix: we've outed her. So I'm the teacher in the classroom. I have 120 kids. You email me and you give me some things that you're seeing at home. You got some questions. What's a reasonable response time that you would expect from your child's educator? What would be a reasonable time frame for me to Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Expect a response back. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I think that if you gave a professional three business days, that's appropriate. Jayson St.Croix: Wow, really? I got three business days? I was thinking twenty four hours max, but if you're gonna give me three Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Well, Jayson St.Croix: business days. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I I have to be honest, you know me, I'm twenty-four hours, right? But we have to you gotta be realistic here. this just happened with one of our clients. Mom sent an email out to the teacher, we heard nothing. It was like crickets, and then all of a sudden, it was actually day four. The teacher responded and she apologized that she was sorry she didn't get back to her. She had the flu. So I I just is that happen the time? Absolutely not. But there are extenuating circumstances that educators have lives outside of the classroom. And I think we need to accommodate for that. I think that we need to hold them to a professional, realistic time frame. You know, I think about my time as an administrator. This time of year, right now, I would expect for those teachers that are on quarters of the districts. it might take two days for a teacher to get back to a parent because during planning time you're doing grading and report cards right now. We're almost at the end of the first marking period. if you're a special education teacher, you're prepping for your IEP progress monitoring reports, right? So even though students are our most important, we also at certain times of the year, we have things that are that are pressing deadlines. in reasonable fairness to education, three days. Three business days. Jayson St.Croix: Because life happens. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: We're they're real people. We're real Jayson St.Croix: Yep. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: people. Jayson St.Croix: All right. So before we transition into our next area, which is the educator and the ADHD brain, if a parent is listening right now, feeling like they are in over their head, what would you want them to hear? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: A school may potentially disagree with a parent's proposed solution or concern, but that doesn't mean. that you should give up on that. If you are a mama and you really feel that there's something going on, there's a lot of avenues and a lot of resources. And if you really deeply and your in your mama gut think that there's something happening, and you know, don't one avenue doesn't pan out, seek another. Jayson St.Croix: And there's plenty of avenues these days, not like we had when we were growing up learning how to parent our daughter, especially with the support groups on social media now and things that it it's a lot easier to get that support. Would you agree? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, I can't undervalue a pediatrician. Like I understand that when we talk education, you know, we always think of schools, right? And I always talk about how we often look at things from different lenses, but honestly, a pediatrician can be an extremely valuable resource to a family. If for no other reason it's to give them resources, right? I would say 40% of our individual clients are referrals from pediatricians. So if nothing else, if they're not able to support in any other capacity, they at least have the number. knowledge of community resources to where parents can get support or can get you know assistance with questions and concerns and those kinds of things. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, so let's switch seats. Plenty of people teaching, aiding, and running schools also have ADHD, and they don't always talk about it. Some Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: No. Jayson St.Croix: of our listeners are educators, and some of them may be wondering about their own brains. We had one on here a few weeks ago. Remember that? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Dr. St.Croix, what strengths show up in educators with ADHD, like creativity, energy, flexibility, and empathy for students who struggle? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: That you named them. Jayson St.Croix: Well, that's your answer. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, you named them. I don't have to tell you. They're they're flexible because they understand they need flexibility, right? You just named them. Like you kind of took the question. Jayson St.Croix: I'm sorry, I didn't realize that I was that good. So without giving you further examples for my next one then, what parts of their job tend to be the hardest? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Okay, so this this is okay, so I have two perspectives on this, okay? The Jayson St.Croix: Sure. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: first one the first one is the teacher perspective. I was a high school English teacher. I probably knew By November of the very first year that I taught, that it was not going to work for me. Because as a high school teacher, I taught the same thing six times a day. And that honestly is why I became an administrator so early in my career. Because I knew I didn't necessarily want to leave education, but I knew from a from a perspective regarding myself, I could not long-term teach the same thing six times a day. and and and might I have had eleventh grade class and a twelfth grade class or an eighth grade class. Yeah, I I did. But it was still that repetition over and over and over again that I just couldn't handle and eventually made that decision of going into administration so that there was movement in those days. You know what I mean? So I think that for me, that was definitely a barrier when I was a teacher. And then I would say, you know, from an administrative perspective, I had teachers who really needed flexibility and they needed different levels of support. And there were times that it was very, very difficult to provide that because of the system. So for example, in New York, we have different unions within a school district, right? We have teachers' unions, we have support staff unions, we have administrative unions. And obviously, the whole premise of a union is to make sure. Sure, that it's great working conditions for everyone. So, what would sometimes happen is the system itself didn't allow you as an administrator to individualize something for one staff member because you didn't do it for another staff member. When in reality, one staff member needed it, but one staff member didn't. They needed something else. So I feel like In both of those positions, those are things that that definitely were barriers, for sure. Jayson St.Croix: What about paperwork? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Man! You get teachers are just so great at teaching, like they're like magical unicorns teaching, right? So awesome. And then you know they don't turn in grades on time. Or I would get calls from parents that they didn't update grades in the software system. They had they haven't had grades, you know, in the last five weeks updated in the software system. Or for example, they didn't turn in report card grades. Like cause those things are on a deadline, right? We gotta turn them in, they gotta get reviewed, we have to print the report cards, they gotta go out, whatever. So they would miss those deadlines. But man, they had it going on in the classroom. So yeah, paperwork is definitely definitely can be a barrier for some teachers with ADHD for sure. Jayson St.Croix: Meetings. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yes. Yes. Jayson St.Croix: What's the hardest part about meetings with a ADHD brain? As an educ Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Attending. Jayson St.Croix: as an educator, remembering to attend? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Remembering to attend, but it's twofold. you always see these memes, right, that on social media and whatever that talk about the teacher that like everybody else wants to leave, but they still ask another question and you're like, man. But at the same time that's so real. as an administrator with ADHD, I was always trying to keep those meetings right to 30 minutes. An hour faculty meeting would send me over the edge. 30 minutes max. But then you kept getting those questions and people were like, man, we gotta go. But so it's attending the meeting, but it's also remaining focused through others gathering information within the meeting. Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, question for you, because at when you were first teaching English and your first assignment was English AIS, I believe, correct? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: You did not know that you had adult ADHD. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I did not at that time. No. I was obviously Jayson St.Croix: Right. So this Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: a squirrel, but I didn't have a diagnosis. Jayson St.Croix: I'm pretty sure I can rewind the tape because you told me I not to use the term squirrel because you are a squirrel. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I am a squirrel. Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Okay. Anyway, here's what I'm getting at. how does having ADHD, and you didn't know it at the time, but you clearly did, because it's not something you developed overnight, but you also had a student. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: My parents think I did. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, you didn't wake up with it the next morning when you married your husband and said, I got ADHD. Anyway, you had a child that you were close to that was struggling, who also had ADHD. You didn't know it at the time that you had it, but you knew this child had it, right? And now that person is very successful. He's a fire chief. He owns his own business. He's our personal handyman. Anytime we need something, own yep, runs an island. He's he is. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Runs an island. Electrician. He's he he's got it. He's got it going on. Jayson St.Croix: So you didn't know you had ADHD. You saw this child struggling in your classroom. What was your thought process as an educator helping that child with ADHD? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I used to say this. I I don't know if I ever said it to him when he was a kid, but I know I said it to you. I used to say to you, if we can get him out of school, he's going to be a functioning member of society. Like, and I just kept thinking that. So, okay, so he might not have gotten a 90 on a a Quiz that I gave, but he was gonna be a functioning member of society. So how was I going to make him function in my classroom? And I didn't care how he learned the information as long as he learned it. And it's super funny because obviously I see him all the time, right? I I love the guy to death. He still to this day talks about things that I taught. Like And and I had him in like what my first maybe second and third year of teaching. So I was like 21. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, it was twenty five, twenty six years ago at least. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, yeah. He still talks about things. And then he'll even send me pictures. if he sees something that reminds him of whatever I might have taught him, he'll send me pictures now. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, and when he first got assigned to run that island, I remember his first phone call. Remember that? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. He was so proud of himself and he could not wait to tell me and I could not be more proud of him. He actually said to me, when we were done with our conversation, he said to me, I have to go call my dad now. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. There's real strength in being a teacher who gets it. What do students pick up on when the adult in the room understands how they are trying to function in your classroom? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Easy. Confidence. Respect. Rita Pearson said it best kids don't learn from people they don't like. Yep. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, who else doesn't learn from people who they don't like? Adults and teachers. Yep, when they're in PD. Yep. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Adults. Yeah. Adults. Jayson St.Croix: Okay, you ready for the big enchilada? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: yeah, the law piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah, ready. I I remember you saying that. There was three of right? Okay. Jayson St.Croix: Yep. Okay. Yep. So let's get to the part that confuses a lot of families that I know. IEPs, Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Okay. Jayson St.Croix: five four plans, IDEA, due process. Once it Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Okay. Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: once ADHD enters the school system, the conversation quickly turns into acronyms and legal jargon. So Dr. St. so Dr. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Not just ADHD. Jayson St.Croix: So Dr. St. Croix, in plain language, how do Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah Jayson St.Croix: education, the law, and the medical side connect for a child with ADHD? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Well, It needs to connect through collaboration. Let me start there, okay? But we have to remember that every one of those professionals that you mentioned, they have a different lens or a different focus, right? So a doctor potentially they diagnose, right? They they have developmental and clinical findings and they diagnose. And obviously, educators are their instruction, their functional needs, their developmentally appropriate, criteria. And then we have the law which has the legal obligation. So a diagnosis identifies a condition. We get that out of the medical space, right? But it doesn't automatically translate that the condition that was identified in the doctor's office into an appropriate educational program. and that's really where I think that we struggle. The problem isn't necessarily that the professionals really lack expertise. We know that's not true, right? We know that doctors are experts in the medical field. We know that, you know, educators are experts in the education field, and obviously lawyers are experts in the legal field. But it's that their expertise often exists within these separate systems, and it doesn't get communicated effectively. And I think that's where the real struggle comes in. Is that you can leave a doctor's office with a diagnosis. It doesn't matter if it's your pediatrician, if it's a developmental Ped or you know what it is. But let's just say you leave with the ADHD diagnosis. Do you know what's going to be different for your child the next day in school? Jayson St.Croix: Nothing. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Nothing. Absolutely nothing. It's a process, it's a system, and we have to work collaboratively to get through it. Yep. Jayson St.Croix: It's not just a process. It's a complicated, overwhelming. It it's quite the I don't want to say ordeal because it's not an ordeal. What's that? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: It's intensive. Yeah, it's intensive. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, it's intensive. How come you why why do you think so many professionals in education, law, medicine don't realize that their fields are connected? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: You know, I think it's the silo effect, honestly. Right? I mean, you when you become a doctor, look at the number of years that you go to school and you're in training. And and in no time are you ever taught what to do with the diagnosis that you have diagnosed, right? And I think we've talked about this before, that I've had doctors call me and say I have a family, they're in the exam room, I diagnose their student with this. They're asking me, what does that mean about school? And I don't know. What do I tell them? Right? And then I'll say things like, okay, this is what we need to look at, this is where we need to go, this is the first thing that they need to do. But we talk about this all the time, especially within the pediatrician's office that I work with super closely, where we have a collaboration with patients. I will say that we have to remember that they can diagnose, doctors can diagnose, and then I know what to do with the diagnosis in regards to school. But I can't diagnose. So just by the makeup of each of those fields, by nature we don't allow them to interconnect, but they really truly do. They're completely interconnected. Jayson St.Croix: So once you get your diagnosis as a parent, are you just gonna take it to the school and hope for the best that the school's gonna have your child's best interest at heart? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Maybe. Maybe. One of the things, and in some school districts you can absolutely do that. You know, it there's no one size fits all in this. Every school district is not the same. Lord knows every school district is not the same. Jayson St.Croix: We do know that all the school districts are different, and even Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: I've learned this from you. and I know the answer to this one, but I want to hear your thoughts on it. What does it look like when a family is told that a service cannot be provided because of resources? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Is this in my tangent of the week? Because Jayson St.Croix: This did not make the tangent of the week, but a question we talked about earlier is coming up in the tangent of the week. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I I feel like I may have made a tangent out of this recently. Obviously because you know that it bugs me, right? And we have to understand that school districts, right, they have financial constraints and they have operational constraints. They are a system. And as much as we don't want to acknowledge this. A school district in the sense of what happens at the most upper levels, right? I'm not talking about what's happening in classrooms. I'm talking about the most upper levels. It's a business. You you're running a business at that point, right? you're talking multi-million dollars operational budgets that are going through these districts. And we have to remember that that school districts they do have real financial and operational constraints. And I've sat in some administrative seats that you know have required me to deal with those in regards to staffing, transportations, scheduling both of you know classrooms but like master schedules in those in those really big spaces and budgets are real challenges you know they they really are we start working on them months and months and months in advance. We have to make sure that we understand that shortages alone do not automatically mean that a student is not receiving FAPE or a free and appropriate education. We are in a shortage in so many areas within education right now, related services and in education. And just because there is a shortage, that doesn't mean that a child is necessarily not receiving FAPE, free appropriate education. But what we have to remember is the question isn't with the the fiscal restraints, it's how is the district meeting the students' individual obligations. So for example, special education has a budget in an operational sense, right? When I was director of special ed, I received a budget that I was supposed to, you know, those were the parameters of the monies that could be spent in order to operate. However However, its legal obligations, a district's legal obligations are not determined by that budget. So there is an operational budget in the special education department of schools, but the legal obligations are not determined by that budget. The budget can inform us how we meet students' needs, but it cannot determine whether we're going to meet their needs. Does that make sense? Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, so I can't tell you that you can't have an aid because it's not in the budget. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Correct. Now, what you can do is provide supports that meet the needs of an individual, and maybe that's not a one-to-one aid. As long as you're meeting those needs, we're good. We're good. But you can't not meet the needs and not provide the aid. A budget, it's a financial planning tool for districts, right? But it doesn't determine the student's legal entitlement to a free and appropriate education. Jayson St.Croix: Understood. Lately on social media there's been a lot of posts going around about get a lawyer for this, get a lawyer for that, get a lawyer the moment that things get tense. And there are times that it makes sense to get a lawyer. We had that situation up north where definitely a lawyer was warranted when that child was being inappropriately placed in the classroom setting. So here's the question I think that matters most. How is what you do different from what an education attorney can provide? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, great question. Great question. So we work with attorneys all the time, right? But we also work with clients without attorneys all the time. So an attorney is essentially examining whether a school district has fulfilled its legal obligations. That that's the whole premise of of of why we would bring an attorney into a situation. Our role the role that I play when I work with attorneys is to examine educational evidence. It really is. It's to examine educational evidence. And we can identify where the programming may not align with the students' documented needs. And really we explain the instructional significance of those findings. And it's that educational analysis that can have a significant Significant impact and how an attorney can develop and present the case. So for example, like my educational analysis goes beyond reviewing an individual's education documents. So, you know, I don't just take and read over an IEP and go, well, you know, the goals don't match the PLEP which I do say that a lot, but that's not the whole premise of it, right? So what we're really Really doing is when I work with attorneys, I'm examining the relationship between the evaluation findings, what identifies disability-related needs. We got instructional design in there, we got service delivery in there, we obviously have measurable student outcomes because those come off the IEP goals, right? And I'm looking for systematic inconsistencies. Any like failures in instructional decision making or specifically like discrepancies of what a district has determined is educationally necessary, and then what the evidence demonstrates was actually provided in the classroom, right? I will take and examine whether the districts educational decisions are supported by the defensible assessment practices, or what we see in the assessments or evaluations. I take a look at you know, instructional methodologies, I take a look at meaningful progress monitoring data, and then those findings, all of those things reveal substantive weaknesses in educational programming, and then that That's what has the significant implication for legal cases. So that's where the findings do more than identify just educational concerns. So we those findings can help any attorney determine which political legal claims like can further be investigated, and then what additional records need to be requested. So like sometimes I'll review subpoenas. And be like, no, no, no. We gotta look, we also need to take a look at this. Or, you know, we need to take a look at this out of the MORIC or out of state reporting, like those kinds of spaces that attorneys are not aware sometimes even exist, right? And then when a district maintains that a student is making adequate progress, which happens in almost every case, then. that I'm part of, then we examine those underlying assessments and the instructional methods and the student performance data to evaluate whether the conclusion is educationally supported. And then what does the attorney do with that? So it really gives the attorney something much more substantive than a parent's concern or like a disagreement about programming, which is Hm, honestly to be truthful, I would say 90%, 95%. It it's high. I'm I'm making those numbers up, but it's really high that due process really starts. It starts because there's a disagreement in programming, essentially. So yeah, we got a lot going on. The attorney brings the legal expertise, but we bring the specialized educational expertise. And then it helps establish what happened instructionally, why it matters, and then what that evidence is that can actually be supported. Because identifying a potential violation is one thing from a law standpoint, but developing the evidence to substantiate it is totally a new skill set. So I know that was a lot, but what we do differently is a lot. And how we work and collaborate with attorneys, it it's it's pretty complex, honestly. But it it's it's multi-layered. It it comes, you know, they have a specific skill set, and we have a specific skill set, and when we can bring it together, powerhouse baby. Jayson St.Croix: So when should a family bring in the outside help that you just referenced and what should they have ready before they do? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. So in regards to what you should have ready, th this is I mean this is tough because I always we operate here at the firm on the premise that not because we don't believe moms and dads don't have things ready or haven't been organized. But let's be honest, there is just so much paperwork that comes in when you have a s a student with an IEP or you have, a student with special needs, that it's really difficult to keep all of those things organized in the midst of daily life. So when you sign a contract here at the firm, that initiates a bunch of communication. And in that communication we actually provide a checklist of the documents that we need. And what that really does is it kind of takes that responsibility off of a mom or a dad, you know, off of a family of having those things prepared before they they contact us. But that that was a two-parter question, was it not? I I feel like Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. When should a family bring in outside help and what should they have ready before they do? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Okay. So I you know, I think I answered the part about having ready before, you know, before they do. At least for Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. It's okay. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: us, we ask them, right? We don't ask you to have anything ready before you contact us. That that's part of the work that we do together. But I really think it depends on what you're looking for because there's diff there's different levels of resources and all of them are appropriate. So for example, you may be looking, a family may be looking for an advocate. Maybe they are, you know, looking for some support in regards to some anxiousness about going to a CSE meeting, and you know, we have a lot of resources that are available within communities where sometimes families aren't even required to have any fiscal responsibility when they work within those organizations who will you know kind of guide them through the process. It's it's an advocate, it's an advocate agency, right? And then, you know, then our another level is consultants, and consultants are very, very different than advocates. You know, we're in that middle ground. We are experts. We have you know a very defined skill in regards to the IDEA law and you know 504 civil rights those laws, we sit within, that educational expertise in regards to curriculum and instruction and behaviors and evaluations. It's a totally different world than where advocate resources sit. And then, you know, kind of have that that tier of legal support, right? So you have your attorneys that are focused on violations. They're focused on law. They are, you know, filing due process complaints. They are defending depending on which attorney you are, you're either defending a school district in a hearing or you're defending you know, a student in a hearing. So those are much more targeted resources that typically obviously there is fiscal responsibility on the part of a family if you're within that consultant and legal space. So each one definitely brings their own skill set to the table. It really just depends on on what circumstances that particular family is in at that particular moment. What I can say is this: do not find a resource, regardless of which one a family might choose in a time of crisis. It's the time to find an advocate, the time to find a consultant, the time to find an attorney is before the crisis happens. For sure. Jayson St.Croix: All right, I have one last question for you before we get to my favorite segment of every episode. What Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: yes. Jayson St.Croix: what do you want parents to know about the legal rights their child has? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I think that the first thing that I want want parents to understand in regards to educational rights are educational rights are not favors, right? They shouldn't happen because you have a really phenomenal superintendent or a really phenomenal principal or a great teacher, right? so often I will hear parents, they'll say to me, well, we didn't ask for that because their teacher did that last year, or we didn't put that in the IEP because their teacher did that last year. So you can't assume that your child's educational rights are a favor. Based off of you know some role. Or that they're just because one teacher or one administrator might be quote unquote stronger than another, right? They're legal protections. They're not favors, they're not kindness, they're legal protections. IDEA is a federal protection for student for special education students. Here in New York State, we have Part 200 regulations, which are our state regulations that protect our special education students. An IEP is a document, it's not the education itself. I think that's really important to understand. Once we develop that document, there's a whole another piece that's going on every day in regards to instruction. And is The instruction meeting the meeting the requirements of that document, the legal requirements of that document. An IEP is not optional. A 504 plan is not optional. So this is where the staff shortage piece really does come in. If your child has a one-to-one aid on their IEP, And they don't get that service because there's a staff shortage, then that is a significant problem. Because once it's in the IEP, it is a right. It is an educational right once it's listed inside the IEP. So we need to stop confusing what is, you know, what is an educational right? If it's in the IEP, it is the child's right to receive that. And then I think the last thing I would want parents to know is that a parent bringing an educational consultant or an advocate or an attorney, doesn't matter, whatever resource you you have or or you're considering to the table, that should not ever stop the collaborative process and turn it into a defensive one. And parents should be able to go out, obtain professionals who can provide them with advice, support, knowledge, and not have to then in turn be on the defense in a CSE meeting. Jayson St.Croix: kills that collaborative effort that you talked about earlier. I actually had a Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Sure does, sure does. Jayson St.Croix: first year first year teacher ask me the other day a really super intelligent question, not that they don't usually, but they wanted an explanation between an accommodation versus a modification because the two are very different. So you know what I did with that? I put that on our Google Doc for our questions episode that's coming up. So I don't want you to explain it right now, but that's a great question. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. No. That's a great question. And honestly, I talk to parents about that all the time. And then on the flip side, we talk about that a lot at CSE meetings. Yeah. And we Jayson St.Croix: Yep. All right. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: could definitely discuss that further, but great question. Yep. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, that was super awesome. I'm glad I'm glad she brought it to my attention and came up and asked me. Okay, so I think the real takeaway is this: deep water isn't dangerous when you know how deep it is and who's in the boat with you. Whether that's a teacher, a parent, a clinician, or an attorney, the child does better when that crew is all working together. And again, none of this is legal advice. If you're in the middle of a situation, talk to the right professional for your circumstances. Would you agree? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yep. Yep. Absolutely. Yep. Jayson St.Croix: Before we wrap things up, it's time once again for our tangent of the week. You had a couple of guesses, you were close, but you didn't get it. Every episode will share one of those moments that perfectly captures the wonderfully unpredictable nature of living with someone with ADHD. So, Dr.. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I feel like I could have a couple of these from this week. I I was Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, you de definitely. I got a couple of Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. I I yeah. I earned them this week. Jayson St.Croix: So, Dr. St. Croix, let's talk about our recent errand run. And before I do, I would like to make a quick note for everyone listening. Client privacy is the top priority of Dr. St. Croix. She never shares names, families, none of that with me. So I'm not going to share a single detail about anyone that she works with because I can't. I don't Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I see. Jayson St.Croix: know. Okay. But this story. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Do do you remember do you remember the time that I had a client in the school that you worked in and I walked in and you you were like, what? What? Like you thought you thought I brought you coffee and I like kept walking. You didn't Yeah, because we truly do not speak of that. Jayson St.Croix: And the only family I do know, I know because we were working at a festival and she wanted to use him as a advertisement on social media Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: for herself touting in your services and how professional, what a wonderful job you do with her child. Remember that? That's the Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: only one that I honestly know that you work with. Okay. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. Jayson St.Croix: So this story is about her reaction and not about the client. All right. We were walking into Walmart. And you were mid-rant, a client had sent a friendly, polite request for an update, and the related service providers and teachers had not gotten back yet. Now I know how stretched those roles can be, and everyone is doing their best. But when you care this much about people getting answers quickly, a quiet inbox gets loud. Do you remember this? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah. I I do, but I do have to say, because I'm always gonna give credit where credit is due. You know that about me. I'm gonna be the first one to call you out, but I'm always gonna give you credit where when it's deserved. The teacher that I was on the tangent about with the related service providers, that's the teacher that was sick. Jayson St.Croix: Fair enough. And I'm and we Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: And she did respond. She did respond. Jayson St.Croix: we have to respect that. I wrote this before you just told me that while we were recording Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Mm-hmm. Yep. Jayson St.Croix: this. So kudos to her and good for her. You got to respect that. But that's Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, totally. Jayson St.Croix: not the that's not the total tangent. Don't you worry, because there is more to that errand day. So I got the full play by play of what a timely response should look like all the way through the front doors and true Jayson, fashion. I nodded, I said nothing, I've learned and I've been taught well. So we got what we came for and she said okay, let's go. And by okay, let's go, that's what you told me. So I headed for the checkout. I turned around. No doctor, no Dr. St. Croix. I found Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I know where this is going. Jayson St.Croix: I found her two aisles in the opposite direction of the checkout standing in the Christmas section. Now, remember a few minutes earlier, we demanded an urgent follow-up. Now, shiny object, Christmas decorations? Hmm. And we weren't even done yet. We then headed to Lowe's for just one thing. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: No, stop, stop, stop, stop. What did you say to me when you saw me in the aisle? What you you came down and I was like, I'm in trouble. What did you say to me? Do you remember? Jayson St.Croix: I don't remember. No. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: it was hilarious. This was the best part. You go, I know I I knew I find you here. Jayson St.Croix: true. I I I can find you pretty good in a store. I know where your hiding places are. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I knew I'd find you here. Jayson St.Croix: Not your hiding places. I know where your shiny objects are when we go into stores. So then we headed to Lowe's for one thing. A plastic base for her plant. Just one thing. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Yeah, yeah. Jayson St.Croix: Forty minutes later, we're still in the lights and Christmas decoration. And to be fair, the lights did respond right away. Yep, you flip the switch, instant response, twinkle, twinkle. Okay. Nobody has to wait. Nope. Yeah, we didn't Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: No look though they were singing Disney characters. Jayson St.Croix: have to wait for a reply from the characters or the lights, did we? That was instant. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: It was great. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah. How close is that to our reality on the weekends? Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: Well, I would say you're seventy percent there because if you remember, the first time I went down the Christmas aisle and you saw me and you said, I knew I'd find you here, we were we were still looking for something. And and we were in with the Christmas trees, remember? And you left Jayson St.Croix: No, we weren't looking for it. I already found it and told you they didn't have it. I Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: I was still looking for it. Jayson St.Croix: know. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: So remember that you left the aisle with the Christmas trees and I went around the other way because I still wasn't done looking at Christmas trees. And then you came back and then you were agitated with me. But I actually it was twice that I got mesmerized and suckered in to the to the Christmas stuff. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, this is a tough time of year because there's lots of shiny objects and twinkling lights. Dr. Amy S. L. St. Croix, ACAS: And it's my favorite time of year. Jayson St.Croix: Yeah, and our house is beautiful too. And I I enjoy you decorating our house. Anyway, that's a wrap on today's episode of Hook, Line, & SinkHer. If today's conversation resonated with you, be sure to subscribe, leave a review, share it with a parent, a teacher, or anyone who has ever sat in a school meeting wondering how to find the right words. Next time we are heading into weathering the storm, ADHD, and burnout. What happens when you've been running on adrenaline and good intentions for too long? And how do you find that calmer water? So, until next time, keep casting, keep learning, and remember, sometimes the best catches happen when you least expect them.