Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Full Episode - The Rule Of Law Is Now Whatever Trump Says It Is + Boeing Promised To Do Better After Deadly Crashes… They Haven’t

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Full Episode - The Rule Of Law Is Now Whatever Trump Says It Is + Boeing Promised To Do Better After Deadly Crashes… They Haven’t · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: This episode of The Chuck Podcast is brought to you
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  Speaker 1: by Chapter. Now, almost everything you hear about medicare is
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  Speaker 1: of that, as you should be. I get it. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: there's a federal lawsuit going on right now over exactly
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  Speaker 1: this companies that branded themselves as unbiased while allegedly pointing
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  Speaker 1: everyone in this space, honestly, I get it. I'm a
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  Speaker 1: bit distrustful these days myself. That's the whole reason I
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  Speaker 1: want to tell you about Chapter. They're independent medicare advisors
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  Speaker 1: board is what they're trying to do. At the end
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  Speaker 1: of the day, they're advocating for you. They're not the
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  Speaker 1: even after you've done this. So look, I get it.
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  Speaker 1: I think there's all sorts of space. You see a
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  Speaker 1: lot of people are throwing themselves in this healthcare space.
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  Speaker 1: When I like about these Chapter folks, I've spent time
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  Speaker 1: with them. This is a very transparent organization. It is Medicare,
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  Speaker 1: three four three nine eight five. Hello thereon, Welcome to
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: the Monday edition of The Chuck Podcast, where we try
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: to explain politics to the rest of us these days.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: And I have to tell you, look, I've got a
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  Speaker 1: show that's already pretty put together. I was aware of
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: this story and I decided not to, but my producers
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: and I were just cracking up. We can't get enough
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: of this crazy story about Greenland, and it's sitting there.
• 2:43
  Speaker 1: It's like, you know, with every Trump controversy, there's always
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: this form of it's terrible and it's hilarious. And what
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: do I mean by that, Like the action is terrible.
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: It is said, you know, our relationship with all countries
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  Speaker 1: to pay a fight with picking a fight with Denmark
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  Speaker 1: and then sort of ignoring like the laws of Greenland,
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: which apparently this is what's happening. And this has to
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  Speaker 1: do with this Texas based oil company who has decided
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  Speaker 1: to just I guess think that they're going to get squatters'
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  Speaker 1: rights to drill for oil on Greenland, not bothering to
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  Speaker 1: get the country's permission to see and I'm not going
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  Speaker 1: to get I'm not going to get into the full details.
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  Speaker 1: There is some question about whether they do have legal
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  Speaker 1: ability to drill whether they don't. And the details in
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  Speaker 1: some ways, like with every Trump controversy, sometimes are are
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  Speaker 1: beside the point, right this the entire whether there's whether
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  Speaker 1: this oil company is acting technically somehow on his behalf.
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  Speaker 1: But you know this Guardian story about it was out
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  Speaker 1: there and then like in the middle of the story
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  Speaker 1: is a bizarre detail that noted this Texas based oil
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  Speaker 1: company decided to hire Phil McGraw, better known as Doctor Filled,
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  Speaker 1: to essentially document these wild catters, this new generation of wildcatters,
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  Speaker 1: as they learn how to drill for oil and other minerals.
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  Speaker 1: In this case, I think it's oil on Greenland. It
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: is just you're just like doctor Phil, Like you know,
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  Speaker 1: here we are about to like break a treaty. Here
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  Speaker 1: we are creating all sorts of geopolitical problems in the
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  Speaker 1: United States. I mean, if you're wondering why the United
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  Speaker 1: States is stuck going and alone with its terrible decision
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: about Iran, it's behavior like this, right. You know, the
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  Speaker 1: president's gone out of his way to alienate pretty much
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  Speaker 1: every ally in Europe in one one form or another,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: even those that were completely allied with him individually. Like
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: look what he's done to the Prime Minister of Italy,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: and look what he's done to Poland and things like that.
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  Speaker 1: And yet there's always this ridiculous literally laugh out loud
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and inflect of course that somehow this clown and I
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: don't you know, you want to talk about a somebody
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: whose legacy ought to at least you know, Oprah Winfrey.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: You gave us doctor Ours and doctor Phil. That's something
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  Speaker 1: you can't erase. You've given a lot of Americans a
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: lot of positives. Those aren't two of them. And to me,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: every time I see Phil McGraw a part of something,
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: I assume it's a punchline, because it's hard to take
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: him or anything he's involved in very seriously at this
• 5:31
  Speaker 1: So anyway, I'm digressing a little bit. This is not
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: how I plan to open the show. I also wasn't
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: planning on opening it with a Nats rant because I
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: didn't have to. This weekend, once again, the Nats are
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: back beating the teams that they should. Unfortunately, they just
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: don't have the ball club to beat the teams that
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: are ahead of them. But hey, I will take those
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: I will take that. I guess i'd said we were
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  Speaker 1: two steps forward, four steps back. Maybe it's three and
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: a half steps forward, three steps back. I still don't
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  Speaker 1: like what we got for Louis Garcia, what we didn't
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: get for Louis Garcia at this point. But anyway, so
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  Speaker 1: we'll set that aside. We'll set all that aside. Let's
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: let's focus in on why you listen, which is about
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  Speaker 1: what the hell is going on in American politics this week,
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: this weekend, and the week ahead. Let me give you
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: a quick rundown of what I've got on this episode.
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: It's a terrific episode. I got a Kennedy, Rory Kennedy,
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: youngest child of Robert F. Kennedy Senior. She's got a
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  Speaker 1: new documentary, sort of a second part to her documentary
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  Speaker 1: focused on Boeing and really, what happened to this great
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  Speaker 1: American company? How have they frankly just ship the bed?
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  Speaker 1: All right? She's not saying it that way, but I will.
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  Speaker 1: I personally think that Boeing's decline is what happens when
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  Speaker 1: you erase competition. Unfortunately, Boeing has no competition to build
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  Speaker 1: here in the United States of America. Their best competitor
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  Speaker 1: is located in Europe, and Boeing essentially takes advantage of that.
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  Speaker 1: And I think that what we have learned is that
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  Speaker 1: you take away competition, you create monopolies and guess what
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: quality control goes down? Well, guess what that happens with
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  Speaker 1: duopolies too, as we found out what the two major
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  Speaker 1: political parties. When you don't have competition for ideas very well,
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: you don't have competition for political parties, you end up
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  Speaker 1: with two pretty crappy products. And yes, we have a
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  Speaker 1: couple of those crappy products. So my guest today is
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  Speaker 1: Rory Kennedy about her her new part essentially part two
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: of what's now a two feature link documentaries chronicling the
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: decline of Boeing and look, at the end of the day,
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  Speaker 1: she's still rooting for it to come back. This is
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  Speaker 1: about putting a mirror in front of the face of
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  Speaker 1: these Boeing executives and Boeing shareholders and realize they are
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  Speaker 1: in the midst of destroying a great company. They need
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  Speaker 1: to do something about it. So that's my guest, my
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: time machine, I guess it's turned into Chuck Todd tries
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: to explain America through history. Today. I got a good one,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: and it's basically America's flirtation with socialism. We flirt with
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  Speaker 1: it all the time, folks. Anyway, I've got two fascinating
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: stories that I'm putting together whose anniversaries happen to fall
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: this week and have given me an opportunity to delve
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: into a topic that you're going to hear a lot
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: about over the next ninety days. Socialism, socialism, socialism. You're
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: going to hear a lot about it. And there's a
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: I sort of think we have the Democratic Socialists of
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: America that actually have named themselves, but the Republican Socialists
• 8:36
  Speaker 1: of America, I think is the other name you've not
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: heard of for MAGA these days. When it comes to
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: how Trump believes in the power of government and where
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: government should go from there, I will have some questions.
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  Speaker 1: But look, I'm going to begin with what was a
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: lot of motion in Washington, but not a lot of action,
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  Speaker 1: which in some ways is Hey, that's par for the
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  Speaker 1: course for Washington, DC these days. Right, the United States
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  Speaker 1: Senate finally went home, So before we get to everything else,
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  Speaker 1: I want to spend a minute on what actually happened
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  Speaker 1: before they left, because I think it does tell us
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  Speaker 1: something larger about where we are the Senate stayed up
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  Speaker 1: basically all night Friday into Saturday. And you know they
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: do these all nighters, so it looks like they're productive, right,
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  Speaker 1: and it's just like ridiculous. They don't get shit done
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  Speaker 1: all year long. They do these two day work weeks.
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  Speaker 1: They're barely here. They fly it it out. But oh boy,
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: right before the recess is about to be announced, they hey,
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: they have a fifteen hour day. See we work hard. Please,
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  Speaker 1: So what did they accomplish? Well, Todd blanche is now
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  Speaker 1: a confirmed Attorney General of the United States. Congratulations, they
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  Speaker 1: got far enough on government funding that we're probably not
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  Speaker 1: going to have the stupidity of a government shut down
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  Speaker 1: right before an election. Don't rule out one right after
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  Speaker 1: the election. And let's see what else they got done.
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  Speaker 1: Let me see here, give me a min in it
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  Speaker 1: crypto Oh nope no, crypto, college sports nope nope. No,
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  Speaker 1: how about voting nope nope no, a whole bunch of
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: things that Republicans told us were their priorities. Come back
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: in September, they claim, Now here's a little lesson when
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: they can't vote on something when fewer people are watching,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: which is right before the August recess. The last thing
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: they're going to do is somehow take up those more
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: controversial topics that they couldn't agree upon before the August research.
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: They ain't taking them up in September. Folks, all right,
• 10:36
  Speaker 1: you will see what this is is a punt so
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: that in September they'll say, we'll wait till after the
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: election and figure this out. The lame doc is where
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: some of the biggest, most consequential things happen. We got
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: rid of don't ask, don't tell the month after an election.
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: There's no way they would have done in a month before.
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: I think we will get this college sports bill someday,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: but it will be after an election, not before. And certainly,
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: if you're the crypto folks, they're going they're just gonna
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: have no choice. But half the wait till then, well
• 11:08
  Speaker 1: we'll see, we'll see. But the fact that the Republicans
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: had to say, punt, we're going to come back in September.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: And let's not forget their political circumstances. Republicans control the presidency,
• 11:18
  Speaker 1: they control the Senate, and they control the House. And
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: now they're about there. They've gone home and they're asking
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: voters to let them continue controlling Congress while their party
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: also controls the presidency, and now their biggest accomplishment heading
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: into the campaign is essentially, well, we probably aren't going
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: to shut down the government before the election, and they
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: want us to pat them on the back. Right, So
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: congratulations for not setting the house on fire. It's not
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: exactly the most inspiring governing platform, right, And look, I'm
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: not going to sit here, and I'm not saying that
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: simply to beat up on the GOP, because what I
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: want to talk to about today is actually much bigger
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: than the Republicans. It's about why the public is so
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: pissed at everybody and why we're seeing to be a
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: growing number of socialists or a growing number of nationalists.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: Do they really feel this way? Well, we'll see. The
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: political alternatives aren't suddenly attracting people on the right and
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: left because of ideas. I think the reason they're attracting
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: support it tells us something different than what our political
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: class thinks they're being told. But first let's talk about
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: Todd blanche I was wrong about this one. I really didn't.
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: I really thought there was enough spinal fluid left and
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: enough Republican senators that Todd Blanche would be the bridge
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: too far, that they were just that they would finally
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: learn to say no. So yes, I really thought Lucy
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: was going to hold the football and I went and
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: thought I was going to actually kick that sucker through
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: the goalpost and say, see, I told you there was
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: a line that they would not cross when Todd Blanche,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: Oh how wrong I was. I think the circumstances surrounding
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: his confirmation are more important than simply the fact they
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: got confirmed. So fifty to forty nine, Louis and Collins
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: and Lisa Murkowski were not surprisingly the only Republican no votes.
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: We knew they would be nos. The question was would
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: there be two others? And it was fifty forty nine.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: Because McConnell hasn't voted, he says now he's been once again,
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: he put out a written statement saying he's been released
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: into rehab. We have not heard the sound of his voice.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Nobody has claimed to hear the sound of his voice.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: By the way, remember what folks have told us is
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: that they've talked to McConnell. So he may have been
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: on the phone and they've talked to him. Anyway, I'm
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: picking nets here, but I digress, but let's listen to
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: the rationale some of the Republicans who did vote yes,
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: including Bill Cassidy, when it came to Todd Blanche, and
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: the conclude he arrived at is this Trump needs somebody
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: around him who can tell him no, I know. Stop.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: It makes me laugh just saying the line out loud, right,
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: It's hilarious. Todd Blanche has Trump's trust. Bill Cassidy claims, therefore,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: Todd Blanche maybe the person capable of telling Trump no, Sorry.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I keep wanting to play the old Spiro Agnew ad
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: where there was this TV commercial that's at Sparau agnew
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: Vice President. It's just somebody laughing out loud, like I
• 14:31
  Speaker 1: can't believe they're actually going to do this shit. And
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: I can't believe that. Bill Cassidy uttered what he uttered
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: out loud at a floor speech of the Senate. One
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: of the people who Cassidy said helped him reach the
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: conclusion that, hey, Blanche, Yeah, he's got the president's trust,
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: so maybe this is a good thing. It was Bill Barr,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: somebody who Donald Trump did not listen to very often,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: as we know, or he wouldn't have launched an insurrection
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: against the United States of America. But yes, Trump's former
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: Attorney General Bill Barr is who Bill Cassidy leaned on
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: in his Senate speech for his rationale to support to
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: confirm the president's personal criminal defense attorney. Remember about b
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: Barr had an extraordinarily expansive view of presidential authority himself.
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: And there was a point where Barr said, Man, I
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: can't do it anymore. I'm out, I am out. I
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: can't defend this shit. Okay. Bill Barr, no friend of
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: the left, no friend of the Trump resistance, said I
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: couldn't take it anymore. Because Trump wanted Bar to validate
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: the lie that the twenty twenty election had been in
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: question or possibly stolen, and Barr wouldn't do it because
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: there were no facts to support it. And eventually Barr
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: chose to leave, And I think it was a cowardly
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: way out, to be honest. He left it to his
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: assistant ag to have to stand up there and eat
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: the shit that Trump was feeding him. That basically he
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: had to threaten the full resignation of the Justice Department
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: mass resignations in order to keep Trump from doing what
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: he did. But Bill Barr chose to walk from the fight,
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: and it's something I'll never forget. But now Barr's advice is, essentially,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: Blanche has something valuable because Trump trusts him enough that
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: maybe he can occasionally talk Trump out of doing something terrible. Maybe, Wow, man,
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: you want to talk about a low bar now, and
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: then compare Cassidy's reasoning with Lisa Murkowski's. Murkowski says, the
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: country needs an attorney general who will check the worst
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: impulses of this administration, and then she continued, I hope
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: mister Blanche is able to achieve that if confirmed, but
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: I simply do not have confidence that will be the case.
• 16:59
  Speaker 1: That's the entire issue, folks, because this was the Senate's
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: opportunity to find out. That was called leverage, and we
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: actually watched the leverage work to a degree, right, John
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Cornyon and Tom Tillis withheld support over that extraordinary IRS
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: settlement and the nearly two billion dollar weaponization fund. Now,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: what really irritates me is that Blanche had no authority
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: whatsoever to change the deal because Donald Trump has to
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: sign the deal. So he didn't make he didn't make
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: any problem. He did not put anything in writing to
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: the This is not true. All he did was lament
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: the whole issue and say I have to change the deal.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: Trump has to sign it. But they get a few concessions,
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: and they made Blanche say a few things on the
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: record and do a few things because Blanche needed their votes.
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: And Corny said something after the committee vote that just
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: told me he is completely unqualified to be United States
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: senator anymore. He said the following, there's nothing we could
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: do to reign in the president. Oh really, there's nothing
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: you can do, John Cornyn, Well you did. You reigned
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: them in for a bit until you decided I'm going
• 18:24
  Speaker 1: to vote for I'm not going to use my leverage anymore.
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: You had leverage because he wanted something from you. That's
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: how the constitution works. That's why the Senate gets advice
• 18:34
  Speaker 1: and consent, not advice and capitulation. That's why Congress controls appropriations.
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: That's why we have three branches of government. The entire
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: system assumes ambition will counter ambition. And yet we've reached
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: this bizarre place with these Republican elected officials who are
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: coward who are just freaking cowards, who know nothing about
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: the actual powers of the constitutions, exercise their constitutional authority.
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: They discover that it works. It worked, and then they
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: tell us something. There's nothing they can do about it. Yes,
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: there is. Do your fucking job. I'm sorry to curse.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: I don't like to just do it. Sometimes nobody pays
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: attention to anything else. Look, Chuck Todd told John Corny
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: to do his fucking job. That's the job. And once
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: Blanche is confirmed, your leverage is gone. So what is
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: an attorney general? At this point? This is a larger
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: philosophical issue with Blanche. It's not about whether Blanche the
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: individual has the qualifications to serve in this post. The
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: question is whether the president's personal criminal defense attorney should
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: ever be given this authority whatsoever, under a president that
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: this person wants represented. This episode of the Chuck Podcast
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: is brought to you by Quints. August, of course, is
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  Speaker 1: the perfect time to hit reset before that whole autumn
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• 22:17
  Speaker 1: during the hearing his confirmation, Chris Coons asked him whether
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: the Justice Department is independent from the White House, and
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: here's how Blanch responded. Article two of the Constitution gives
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: the power of the executive to President Trump. So basically
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Todd Blanche's theory of the case says, nope, Donald Trump
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: is the rule of law, the rule of law belongs
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: to Donald Trump. He made no attempt whatsoever to defend
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: any sort of independence of the Justice Department. Right then
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: and there, he made himself completely unqualified to be Attorney
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: General of the United States. And somehow fifty senators didn't
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: hear what he said there. Fifty senators somehow missed this hearing.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Apparently he said he was not going to be an
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: independent attorney general. That's why he gave that answer. Wasn't
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: an accidental answer. It's his quote theory, because guess what,
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: nobody's going to get that job unless they agree with
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: Trump that actually you're the rule of law. At the
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: end of the day. Blite believes in an extraordinarily muscular
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: conception of presidential control over the Justice Department. I don't
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: know whether he actually believes it, but it's what he
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: had to say he believes in order to get Trump
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: to nominate it. Because we know Trump certainly believes he
• 23:28
  Speaker 1: has all power that he wants, and if he doesn't
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: want the power, then maybe he'll let the Constitution decide.
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: So we're in the middle of actually having a fundamental
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: argument about whether whether an attorney general is the president's
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: lawyer or the people's lawyer. Right, a White House counsel
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: is supposed to be the president's lawyer. The attorney general
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: is supposed to be the people's lawyer. That's what Barack
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: Obama called it. I know some of you are going
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: to say, well, Barack Obama had airic Eric Holder was
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: more loyal to Barack Obama than the rule of law. Yeah,
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: what part of Barack Obama launching personal investigations into his
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: political enemies did he do? Right? Because he didn't. Whatever
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: you think of Obama, he did not believe the attorney
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: general was the president's consigliary. Donald Trump does. If he
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: were alive, Donald Trump would have nominated Roy comp Since Watergate,
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: presidents of both parties had generally understood that there needs
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: to be distance between the White House and specific criminal investigations. Right,
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: we had a frankly, we had a Democratic president who
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: put his brother in attorney general, which is just lunacy.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: And then remember Nixon's Nixon's attorney general was overseeing the
• 24:46
  Speaker 1: presidential campaign, which is just as absurd. So post Watergate,
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: we said, you know what, maybe the person in charge
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: of the America's rule of law the one thing that
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: sort of keeps us different from every other place on Earth,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: ought to have some independence and some protection. Richard Nixon
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: taught us this. You don't want presidents deciding who gets
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: investigated and who doesn't. And yet we're voluntarily relearning lessons
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: we already learned as a country. I'll tell you it
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: just chaps my ass here last week alone, the president's
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: decision to get involved in Janine Piro's decision to follow
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: the rule of law and actually withdraw her charges on
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: the ridiculous reflecting pool situation, which we know this is
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: as much about Trump desperate to control little things since
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: he can't control his presidency anymore. You know, this is
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: like a Trump kind of like, you know, he's clinging
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: to his blinky I you know, I must go after
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: these reflecting pool vandals, right like he could say that
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: really loudly and boldly, since he can't even get the
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: straight of hoor moves open. But the fact is he
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: got involved this week that alone should have been at
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: the proof. Lisa Murkowsky's figured this out. I don't know
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: what world Bill Cassidy's living in, because this is what
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: bothers me about this In confirmation, this is not about
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: the individual Todd Blanche, who again I'm sure has qualifications.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: I'm sure comes across as a very competent individual. I'm
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: sure has said, look, man, I'm dealing with a nut
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: job as president. You know what, I know it, I'm
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: going to do my best arrangement. I'm going to do
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: my best to do it. I'm sure he's had I wish
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: that we had recordings, as I promise you, he's probably
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: thrown Trump under the bus in these meetings in ways
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: to get votes. But this is not about a personality contest.
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: This is about some fundamental lines in the sand. And yes,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: just because Trump could keep an acting attorney general, then
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: you know what, Bacom, don't acquiesce to this bullshit because
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: while it's not fair to the Justice Department that there's
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: an acting attorney general, that's what Trump counts on. His
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: entire life has been built on wearing people down. So
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: he gets involved in the dumbest controversies and people are like,
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: ough whatever, you know, if he wants to say, you know,
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: just let it go right like. And so this has
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: been the if you give him ause a cookie, you know,
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: living example for the rest of our lives is Donald
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Trump's life right. So, but by confirming Blanche in this way, right,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: they have completely politicized the Justice if they have cemented
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: the idea again, these Republicans thought that claimed that Joe
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Biden was politicized in the Justice Department, claimed that Barack
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: Obama was. And their answer is to go further than
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: where anything that either administration chose to go. Whatever, however,
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: where have you you want to mythically draw your line.
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: This administration has politicized everything worse you and i'll if
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: I'm going to accept your premise of that it was
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: politicized under the Democrats. Two wrongs. I say this all
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: the time. Two wrongs don't make a right. But the
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: entire premise of Donald Trump and the MAGA movement is
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: two wrongs do make a right. And this, my friends,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: is what's the most destructive part of that ideology. So
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: now Congress is saying, we recognize that executive power is
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: expanding and should get bigger. We recognize that the president
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: needs constraints. We hope the guy the president chose will
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: constrain him. It's like what I said last week, Chuck
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: Schumer is trying to reign in the corruption of the
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: president by hoping the president picks people that will rain
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: them in. It's just ridiculous. Does anybody in Congress understand
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: the Constitution? Chuck Schumer does it? Bill Cassidy doesn't. Jesus
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: freaking crime, Andy. This is why so many people have gone,
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: what the hell has happened to America? What the hell
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: has happened on politics? Why does the normally sort of
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: not so emotional Chuck Todd goats pop off on this
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: the channel, my friend in a few good men, the
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: fictional lawyer there, Lieutenant Caffey, Did everybody go to a
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: government class for the galactically stupid? Because nobody's learned the Constitution?
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Who x of the people that are swearing an oath
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: to defend and protect it? All right? And this is
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: where I want to zoom back out of it, because
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: Blanch got done, I guess, and I guess they think.
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: You know. All you've done is weakened the Department of
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Justice for more Americans, created more distrust in this institution.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: And that's the shame that everybody who voted to confirm
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: Blanche has to hold. And look, I'm not look, Bill
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: Cassidy's got to sleep at night, but he is. He
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: is the reason we have Robert F. Kennedy Junior in
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: charge of our health care, health policy, in our vaccines.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: How's that going? And he's now the deciding vote on
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: allowing for the personalization and for an authority essentially an
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: authoritarian over some sort of authoritative I don't want to
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: go all the way authoritarian, but sort of the this
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: this control of the rule of law as if it's
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: something that should be interpreted by a singular president. It
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: was never the founder's intent that rule of law be decided.
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: We revolted from a king. We had no there's no
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: way at all that that constitution was written by people
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: who said one man or woman, whoever was going to
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: be the president, they alone were going to be the
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: rule of law. And the only thing they wrote in
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: the constitution that gave the executive branch that power was
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: the pardon power, which was probably the biggest mistake after
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: the biggest mistake obviously was a gender and race, But
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: after those two things, the pardon power huge mistake in
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: that constitution. All right, so they got Blanche confirmed. What
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: else didn't they do? Well, they didn't get Crypto done.
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: And you know, it's interesting for all the attention crypto gets.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: For all the money crypto is poured into politics, for
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: all the promises made about creating regulatory certainty, they had
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: to move to September. I'm sure the crypto folks were wondering, Hey,
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: I thought we bought this legislation. Not yet. Then there's
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: college sports, now, one of these issues where everybody agrees
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: the existing system is ridiculous. Congress has been holding hearings,
• 32:03
  Speaker 1: the conferences have been lobbying. Schools want certainty, athletes need rules,
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: Courts keep effectively making national sports policy. Because Congress, like
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: everything else it touches, has no ability whatsoever to do
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: its job. They kick that to September. There's that voting
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: legislation that Donald Trump's been demanding. Republicans claim this issue
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: is existential. It's so existential they punted to September. Then
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: they have government funding. Now, this is one where neither
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: party wanted to roll the dice on whether who would
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: get blamed for a shutdown, and because they both know
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: that failure would have an immediate political cost for the
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: party blamed for doing it. And that's pretty good metaphor
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: for Washington right now. We have become much better at
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: avoiding political consequences than solving public political problems. The incentives
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: worked beautifully when congressional careers aren't threatened, right, they don't
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: work nearly as well when merely the public's problems needs solving.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: And that brings me to what I actually wanted to
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: talk about today. So missus Toodcast and I. Over the weekend,
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: I've been talking about what's going on with the Democrats,
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: third parties, the surge of progressives. Why do voters seem
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: willing to entertain political ideas that I don't necessarily believe
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: represent their actual ideology? And it struck me right. I
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: talked about this with my deep dive on what happened
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: in Grand Rapids last week in the Michigan Primer, but
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: I realized I haven't really I haven't shared with you
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: lately my baseline theory of where I think the country
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: is at at the moment. So here it is. I
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: don't believe half the Democratic electorate is suddenly socialist, right,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: I don't believe Grand Rapids Michigan suddenly became a hotbed
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: for socialism. What I do believe is that Grand Rapids
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: and its voters are really pissed off. And I think
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: That's why it is. I think this is one of
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the more important debates internally. What do you think the
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: motive of the voter is at the moment right? If
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you believe like I do, then you go down one path.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: If you believe this is ideological and this is about
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: an actual shift, you would go down another path. So
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: when somebody like abd Lsayet attracts voters outside what you
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: would normally think of as the progressive base, my question
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: isn't when did all these people become socialists? My question
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: is what is he saying that these voters desperately want
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: somebody to say. And I think the answer begins with
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: the Democratic Party itself. Right. Some people think a flaw
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: in Abdul Lsayet is his trashing of the party at times,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: and I think the voters that are attracted to him
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: right now that aren't socialists. I think they see it
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: as a feature. The governing wing of the Democratic Party
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: has a problem that I think it has been remarkably
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: reluctant to acknowledge their voters think they fucked up in
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty four. Yes again, but sometimes I do it
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: because I'm trying to underline something. Period that's what voters think.
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: And you know why they think that, because they somehow
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump became a better alternative than whatever the hell
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: the Democrats put up. Voters aren't mad at other voters
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: for making that conclusion. They're mad at the Democratic Party
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: of leadership for putting up a terrible fight. That's the
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: issue here, folks. And this time voters feel as though
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: they didn't even get to decide who would try to
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: stop Trump. And then, of course it's the accumulation of
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: really three straight presidential elections where the leadership of the
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: party decided who was going to be the nominee, not
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: the voters. The voters didn't decide Clinton versus Sanders because
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: people were kept out of the race from the get go.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: The voters didn't decide Joe Biden. That was an absolute
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: everybody panicked about Bernie Covid happened and everything aligned for
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: and then of course we know the Kamala situation. Now,
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: that doesn't mean these photos were anti Kamala Harris. Okay,
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: they weren't. They aren't. They like her, that wasn't it.
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: They rallied around her, they got excited for her, but
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: she lost and after somebody loses. It's pretty natural to say, hey,
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: wait a minute, I didn't actually pick her. She wasn't
• 36:18
  Speaker 1: my choice to be the standard. Maybe I would have,
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: maybe I wouldn't have, but I'll never know because I
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: didn't get a choice. So you know, and again happened
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: in sixteen. If you didn't want Clinton in sixteen, and
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: you weren't a Bernie Sanders progressive, your only other alternative
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: was Martin O'Malley. It's no offense to Martin. I've knowne
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: on a long time, two term mayor Baltimore, two term governor,
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: in some ways very successful resume, too thin skinned about
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: his portrayal in the Wire, which I think was sort
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: of told you something about him. But I digress. Maybe
• 36:57
  Speaker 1: there's another alternative universe where he actually emerged in the
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: twenty sixteen multiverse, but not the one we live on.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: And then, of course we know what happened in twenty
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: twenty by South Carolina, the establishment and made it pretty
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: clear where they wanted this nomination to go. They wanted
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: to support somebody who had yet to win a single Remember,
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Biden had yet to win a primary caucus before South Carolina.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: He didn't even finish in the top three in I
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: went the top three in New Hampshire and he finished
• 37:24
  Speaker 1: at distance second in Nevada, and the establishment said, yeah,
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: let's go with Joe Biden anyone. But guess what, And
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: it's going to be hard for some people to accept
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: whether you think Biden tried to be a good president.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: The public decided he wasn't a good president. And that's
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: the problem. And if the country chose to turn to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump, then it means it was a failure of
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: a presidency. I say this mindful. This is not personal.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: It's just what the voters have concluded. Right. So, now
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: you've had three consecutive presidential cycles in which Democratic voters
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: could reasonably conclude that their leadership put a very heavy
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: thumb on the scale. And where did it leave them?
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: Two terms of Donald Trump as president. So who's actually
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: standing up and saying this leadership failed. It's not the
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: governing wing of the Democratic Party. Right. Chuck Schumer hasn't
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: said I messed up. Nancy Pelosi has in stood up
• 38:24
  Speaker 1: to say hey we messed up. Akeem Jeffries, Barack Obama,
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris. Nobody stood up and said hey we messed up.
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: It's only been the progressive. They've said it, Chuck Schumer
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: becomes the lightning rod because he's now the most obvious
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: remaining face of the old leadership structure. Some of the
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: criticism of Schumer is warranted, but the larger point isn't
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: about Schumer. It's that the people challenging the establishment are
• 38:51
  Speaker 1: willing to acknowledge the actual failure of the leadership. And
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: this is the distinction that I think our political class
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: keeps missing. You can dis agree completely about the treatment
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: while agreeing completely about the diagnosis. If I go to
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: three doctors and two of them tell me everything looks fine,
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: and the third says, no, something is seriously wrong, and
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: I know something is wrong, guess which doctor I'm going
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: to listen to. Now. I may ultimately think that doctor's
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: treatment ideas or nuts, but at least he's looking at
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: the same patient I'm looking at. That's our politics right now.
• 39:29
  Speaker 1: The progressive says, these people fucked it all up, and
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: the frustrated Democratic voter says, yeah, they're right, they did. Okay,
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: now you've established trust. Now you can argue about socialism.
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: Now you can argue about taxes. Now you can argue
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: about Israel. Now you can argue about whatever you want.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: But the governing Democrat who begins by saying, actually, the
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: Biden administration accomplished more legislatively than people appreciate, forget it.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: You've already lost them because you're arguing about the treatment
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: before acknowledging that the patient is sick. And this is
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: precisely what Donald Trump understood in twenty sixteen. Trump said,
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: they're all full of shit. The Republicans, the Democrats, Washington,
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: the experts, the people who set your jobs overseas, the
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: people who started wars, the people who tell you everything
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: is fine, all those horrible media people. They're all full
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: of shit. Now did every Trump voter want every Trump policy?
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: Of course not, but they certainly agreed with his diagnosis. Yeah,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: that guy, he says, what I'm thinking. Remember that, Well,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: that's what they're thinking. These people are all full of shit.
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: And once somebody believes you're the only person willing to
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: tell them what's wrong, they're going to give you enormous
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: latitude on your ideas for the cure. And that's a danger, right,
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: that's the danger of this, that's the danger of electing
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: mister Iolone can think, as he's proven he alone could
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: break it, but he can't seem to fix it. But
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: that's what's happening in portions of the Democratic Party right now.
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  Speaker 1: zero seven eight six seven if you're in Louisiana. Which
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: brings me to a fascinating Washington Post story late last
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: week that I can't stop thinking about. It's about a
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: musical instrument factory. The company is called con Now. This
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: one there's a reason I sort of caught my eye
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: more than just because it was about a factory. This one.
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: It's close to home for me because my French horn
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: is a con CNN for those of you, those of
• 43:24
  Speaker 1: you who know musical instruments a little bit. You know,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: they make trump they make a lot of brass instruments.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: By the way, I still have my con horn, which
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: I've gotten, you know, I created. There's this great There
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: was this great musical instrument sort of tinker out here
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: in rural Maryland who gave me a screw bell. I
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: had sort of the old fashioned French horn, and then
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: I wanted to get a screwbell. I got it done
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: out here. But it's a con Someday I'll bring it
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: for a little show and tell. But this story is
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: not about Chuck Tud's French horn or other French horns.
• 43:58
  Speaker 1: It's about American manufacturing again. It's about private equity again
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: and its promises about protecting American manufacturing again. It's a
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: story about a factory closing again. But the details of
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: this one are almost a bit too perfect, which is
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: why it's worth talking about it in whole. So here's
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: what the story is about. This is con Selmer's plant
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: in East Lake, Ohio. It's outside of Cleveland. It's been
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: making brass instruments in that factory for sixty one years.
• 44:28
  Speaker 1: Tubas souzophones, which are basically marching tubas French horns. These
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: aren't widgets being stamped out by robots, right. A lot
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: of this is very skilled work done by hand workers
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: having the ben Brandt brass shape it buffet make instruments
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: that ended up in the Cleveland Orchestra or the Ohio
• 44:47
  Speaker 1: State Marching Band, or frankly in Chuck Ta's house. So yeah,
• 44:53
  Speaker 1: it's a personal connection for me. My French horn was
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: made in this factory. At one point, this factory had
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: about three hundred workers running three shifts, and by the
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: end there were one hundred and fifty. We know, we
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: know these stories. Unfortunately they become quite familiar as of
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: June thirtieth, though this summer, all one hundred and fifty
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: remaining employees all lost their jobs. Now, the company claims
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: the plan had been losing money for years and couldn't
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: compete with manufacturers in Asia. It says it invested millions
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: trying to make the factory more efficient, outsourced some unprofitable products,
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: negotiated with the union, and ultimately concluded it couldn't make
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: the numbers work. Okay, that's the explanation, But here's where
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: the story gets a little more complicated. And quite interesting.
• 45:40
  Speaker 1: Con Selmer is owned by Steinway Musical Instruments, and Steinway
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: was bought in twenty thirteen by the investment firm of
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: billionaire hedge fund manager John Paulson. Do you know who
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: John Paulson is? John Paulson's a major Trump supporter. He's
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: a major Trump fundraiser, and he calls himself an advisor
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: to Trump. And in September of twenty twenty four, Paulson
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: himself goes on CNBC and makes the case for Trump's tariffs.
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: And what does he say. He says America has hollowed
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: out as a hollowed out manufacturing base. He says we
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: need to protect American manufacturing and American jobs. And then
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: he says American companies can't keep closing American factories and
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: moving the jobs overseas. Paulson's pitch to support Donald Trump
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: on Investor Friendly CANBC. Meanwhile, the company he owns this
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: is when he's uttering this on c NBC. The company
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: Paulson owns had begun building a twenty one million dollar
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: manufacturing facility in you guessed it, China. So when con
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: Selmer finally shuts east Lake down permanently, guess where those
• 46:57
  Speaker 1: jobs are going. Some professional French horn production will move
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: to another Consummer plant right here in the United States
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: in Elkhart, Indiana. But it's going there because it's a
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: non union plan. But the tubas, susophones, and the student
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: and intermediate French horns, they're all going offshore. They're all
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: going to China. Union leaders themselves were told much of
• 47:24
  Speaker 1: that production was going to that new facility Paulson was building.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: At the time. He told CNBC that he was supporting Trump,
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: so no more manufacturers would leave the country. So think
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: about it. The billionaire owner goes on TV to argue
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: for Trump and Terrace because we have to stop American
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: companies from closing factories and sending jobs overseas. And then
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: what does he do, literally eighteen months later, closes an
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: American factory and sends those jobs overseas well. What was
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: interesting about this Washington Post story is that the workers thought,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: surely somebody is going to stop this because Trump knows Paulson.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: Ohio's former senator and current Vice President JD. Fanc He
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: knows Paulson. Bernie Marino actually called con Selmer's CEO and
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: tried to keep the plane open, but nothing changed. And
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: then this is where the post story became much more
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: than a story about a musical instrument factory, because on
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: the last day, these workers started talking politics. One retired
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: worker says he can't stand Trump, but he likes what
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: Trump does. Another guy looks at him and basically says,
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: what the hell are you talking about? Look at the alternative.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: Democrats have become socialist communists. And then another voter enters
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: the picture. The Aaronnette Dombrowski. She's sixty four years old.
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: She was a janitor at the factory, and she voted
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: for Trump. And her conclusion isn't okay, I'm going back
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: to the Democrats. Her conclusion is it's all false promises.
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: They're all fullish shit, given you Donald Trump. And then
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: she says, I'm done. I'm not voting ever again. That's
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: the story, not that Donald Trump lost a voter to
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: the Democratic Party. Donald Trump may have lost a voter
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: to nobody. And if you want to understand the political
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: moment we're living through, that's the woman to go figure
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: out and understand. A Neette Dombrowski. She has concluded that
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: that's it. Sixty four years of broken promises, and she's
• 49:29
  Speaker 1: out for what it's worth. She doesn't appear to be
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: looking for socialism, and she doesn't appear to be looking for,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: you know, right wing socialism. Mega she's looking at the
• 49:40
  Speaker 1: entire system and saying, you all told me you were
• 49:42
  Speaker 1: going to fix this, and none of you did. And
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: towards the end, there are these other workers trying to
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: figure out what that will happen. And one says, well,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: Trump let me down. Another one says, I thought Trump
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: was going to stop this. Then it comes to question,
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: what about the Democrats. Another person says they're worse. So
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: what's the answer? They say, I'm I'm not voting again.
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: I think that voter is one of the most important
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: political stories in America because Donald Trump, for a brief
• 50:08
  Speaker 1: period of time, didn't simply convert voters from one party
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: to another. He actually brought some people back into politics
• 50:14
  Speaker 1: so it would essentially stopped participating. There's a pretty good history
• 50:18
  Speaker 1: of interesting bit of political history here. Sean trending over
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: at Real Clear Politics was sort of the chief sort
• 50:24
  Speaker 1: of analysts out there sort of screaming this at the
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: top of his lungs, and he was onto this before
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: anybody else was onto this. After the twenty twelve election,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: everybody was looking at Romney's loss and talking about the
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: changing racial composition of the country, and obviously that was
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: an important part of the story. But what Shawn noticed
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: was something else in the data. He thought millions of
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: white voters who you might have expected to participate simply
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: weren't participating anymore. And with the final numbers he estimated,
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: he thought there were six million plus fewer white voters
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: than you would have expected based on the twenty eight
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: turnout out and population growth. And when he dug further
• 51:04
  Speaker 1: to where they lived, he realized they weren't primarily suburban
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: Republican establishment voters. Actually tended to be lower income, blue collar,
• 51:11
  Speaker 1: more rural, disproportionately in the north, and interestingly a lot
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: in the same places where Ross Perrot had done well
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety two and less well in ninety six.
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: It's important because these weren't necessarily doctrinaire conservative Republicans sitting
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: home because Romney wasn't severely conservative enough. One of my
• 51:29
  Speaker 1: favorite phrases that he came up with, if you have
• 51:31
  Speaker 1: to call your conservatism severe, it's probably not a good thing.
• 51:34
  Speaker 1: But I digress. Now, Shawn's theory was almost the opposite Romney,
• 51:37
  Speaker 1: with the wealth, the patrician image, the economic libertarianism. He
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: just simply was a really bad fit for these voters.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: And guess what. In January of twenty sixteen, before anybody
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: knew Donald Trump was going to win the presidency, Sean
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: wrote that a Republican candidate with more working class appeal
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: might be able to bring some of these people back
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: into the electorate. He was careful about it. He wasn't
• 51:59
  Speaker 1: arguing these voters alone could elect a Republican president. But
• 52:05
  Speaker 1: Trump's coalition obviously became much broader and more complicated than
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: simply white working class voters. And then shawnad identified something real.
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: There was an electorate out there that neither party was reaching. Right,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: the conventional leaders of either party was not reaching those folks.
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: These are the people that gave up on both parties,
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: people in places with complicated political histories, places that had
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: voted for Democrats, Republicans, Ross Perot, sometimes even Barack Obama,
• 52:30
  Speaker 1: who weren't sitting around thinking about politics in these left
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: right terms that we constantly shoved people into. They thought
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: the system just simply wasn't working. For them, and Trump
• 52:42
  Speaker 1: saw them right. This is a form of identity politics.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: He heard them, or at the very least, Trump convinced
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: them that he heard them right. And that's the difference.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: Some of it was economics, some of it was class,
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: some of it was culture, some of it was race.
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: And anybody who tells you they can neatly separate all
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: those things into individual little boxes probably hasn't spent enough
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: time talking to actual voters. Human beings don't easily sick me, right.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: A guy doesn't wake up and say, today, my vote
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: is thirty seven percent economic anxiety, twenty six percent cultural resentment,
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: and fourteen percent racial anxiety. Right, That's not how people think.
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: They know something changed in their town. That's what they know.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: The factory isn't there anymore, Their kid moved away because
• 53:28
  Speaker 1: there aren't jobs. The people running the country seem to
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: live in a different world, and somebody finally comes wrong
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: and says, yeah, I see that too. Trump did that,
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: and for a lot of these voters, that was enough.
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: Which brings me back to the janitor, or now the
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: former janitor out of work janitor in Nette Dobroski at
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: that con musical instrument factory because what happens when the
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: guy who told you he saw the problem gets power
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: and the factory still closes. Well, that's the question we're
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: facing now, isn't it. And what I find fascinating is
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: that her answer isn't fine, I'm a Democrat again, It's
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: I'm done. And that's the big warning sign for both
• 54:05
  Speaker 1: parties here, because Trump proved that politically dormant voters can
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: be reactivated. But if those voters conclude that Trump failed
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: them too, there's absolutely no reason to assume they automatically
• 54:20
  Speaker 1: migrate back to the Democratic Party. And by the way,
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: mid term success may not mean they came back. It
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: could mean they just sat home. They could just disappear again.
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: And I think that's one of the things our political
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: analysis misses when we insist I'm looking at everything as
• 54:37
  Speaker 1: Republican gains equal Democratic losses, or Democratic gains equal Republican losses.
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: There is always a third destination, the couch, and maybe
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: an eventual fourth destination. Let me introduce you to somebody
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: we haven't met yet. Because this is why I keep
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: coming back to third parties and independents, not because I
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: think we have a long term hope of creating a
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: third or fourth party in this country. I don't, but
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: I do think either these two parties reform themselves or
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: they will be replaced that I promise you. One of
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: these parties could be the Wigs. It's possible they're both
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: the Wigs, but hang on. So Ultimately, though, I think
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: both parties need competition. I think they need to fear
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: something besides losing to each other. Because if I'm Coke
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: and you're PEPSI losing five points of market share to
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: you is bad, but hey, everybody's still drinking carbonated cola beverages. Right.
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: What would scare me is somebody inventing something people decide
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: they like better than cola. Right. That's existential, and that's
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: historically what successful third party movements do. They don't necessarily
• 55:44
  Speaker 1: become permanent third parties. They threaten to replace one of
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: the existing parties. That's when political parties recalibrate. But I
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: think a lot of people in the independent movement have
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: misdiagnosed this opportunity. Joe Manchin is a great example of this.
• 55:59
  Speaker 1: Some of my friends forward have done versions of this too.
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: They see forty something percent of Americans identifying as independence
• 56:04
  Speaker 1: and conclude aha centrists. No no, no, no no no. Not
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: necessarily independent does not mean moderate. It means I don't
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: want to join either of your fucking clubs. That's different.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: The opening isn't necessarily ideological centrism either. The opening is
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: institutional rejection. So here's the test. Can you build a
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: political coalition that includes the factory worker who just lost
• 56:36
  Speaker 1: his job making musical instruments, the fifty eight year old
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: middle manager who's done reasonably well, doesn't want a revolution
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: and just wants the government to function. And the twenty
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: five year old who did everything we told them to do,
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: went to school, got the degree, learned to code, works hard,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: and still can't imagine buying a house. These people may
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: disagree about immigration, by the way, they may disagree about taxes, abortion, gun, Israel, climate,
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: one hundred things, but maybe they agree on something more fundamental,
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: that the system isn't working for me anymore, and maybe
• 57:11
  Speaker 1: that's enough to begin a political movement. This is where money,
• 57:14
  Speaker 1: though enters. My theory of the case, politics has become
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: so expensive that maintaining political power requires an extraordinary amount
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: of money. And when your continued existence depends on people
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: who can provide extraordinary amounts of money. Elon Musk, those
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: people inevitably gain extraordinary access. Elon Musk. That's not necessarily
• 57:37
  Speaker 1: corruption in the criminal sense, Elon Musk. It's capture Elon Musk.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: And it happens in both parties, sometimes by different interests,
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: sometimes by the exact same interest hedging their bets. Think
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: about what the two party system offers somebody with enormous
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: financial interest in Washington, one investment vehicle on the right
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: or investment vehicle on the left. If one goes down,
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: maybe the other goes up. It's a perfectly rational market, right.
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: The crypto folks got Trump's kids involved in a crypto firm.
• 58:10
  Speaker 1: The crypto folks also have Kirsten Gildebrand's children involved in
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: crypto deals, and she's a Democrat. There's your quote rational market.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: It's also a terrible way to operate a representative democracy.
• 58:26
  Speaker 1: And eventually voters figure out that their representative seems more
• 58:30
  Speaker 1: frightened of losing a donor than losing their votes. So
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: here's the thing. I think Chuck Schumer is a pretty
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: decent guy. I think our teen Jefferies is a pretty
• 58:49
  Speaker 1: decent person. I know plenty of Republicans who are think
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: are really decent people. This is not a morality judgment
• 58:55
  Speaker 1: on individuals, but it doesn't mean they're good at their jobs.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: Good people can be bad at their jobs. Bad people
• 59:04
  Speaker 1: can be very good at their jobs. Sports teaches us
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: this constantly, doesn't it We forgive the asshole it's three
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: twenty for our team. We hate the wonderful human being
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: who strikes out with the bases loaded. Competence and morality
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: are not synonyms, but our politics has become so tribal
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: that admitting somebody on your team is failing somehow feels
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: like admitting the other team is morally right. That's how
• 59:33
  Speaker 1: you get Todd blanche a confirmed Attorney General. Jesus freaking crime.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Any folks, somebody has to be willing to say, we
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: fuck this up, not we need to communicate better, not
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: we need to meet voters where they are, or we
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: understand Americans are frustrated. Jesus, shut up and just say
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: what it is. We fucked up. Our institutions stopped listening,
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Our parties became captured by businesses that they're supposed to regulate.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: Our leaders became more interested in winning the argument than
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: solving the problem. And we're going to fix it. That's
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: all I want to hear. And this is where I
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: think we need to be careful about what the public
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: is actually asking for, because I don't think America is
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 1: becoming a socialist country, and I don't think America is
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: going to become a fascist country. I think America has
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: become a country that's desperate for a simple reset. And
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: because nobody credible is offering the reset, voters keep sampling
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: the revolutionaries. I don't blame them, and that's a different
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: way to understand the moment we're living in. And that's
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: how I understand this moment. You may not agree with
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: me on this, but I have a feeling in a
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: few years you may go, oh yeah, and a mother
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: fat son of a bitch. Chuck was right. I never
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: like admitting that. I know there's some of you out there.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: It's okay. I want you listening as well. I continue
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: to believe there is an archetype though, that could help
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: calm the waters offer revolution at the same time, and
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's someone from the last institution that still
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: enjoys cross partisan support. It's the military, right the two
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 1: presidents that seemed to understand how absurd our partisan politics
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: was the best happened to be the two people who
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: have been commander in chief of our armed forces and
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: in some ways in charge of our armed forces before
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: they became president. And that's General George Washington and General
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: Dwight Eisenhower. So I'll give you an example of the
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: kind of person I find myself looking for, at least
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: one whose story is intriguing enough that I certainly am
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: trying to find people who know this person, and I
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: want to see if they're ready to be America's next
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: Washington or Eisenhower or Lincoln, because we need a leader
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: who isn't comfortable with any label other than one American.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: So I've been very intrigued by now retired General christani Here.
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: Now I will confess I don't know the guy. I've
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: never met him. I don't know his politics, and I
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 1: don't know if he has any and I certainly don't
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: know whether he'd have the slightest interest in public service
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: as an elected official, because he's clearly has been involved
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: with public service his whole adult life. But I am
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 1: intrigued by his resume. Donna Hue is a West Point
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: grad spent more than three decades in the Army, commanded
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: Delta Force, served in Iraq, Siria in Afghanistan, commanded the
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 1: eighty second Airborne, and eventually became the four star commander
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: of US Army forces in Europe and Africa. He's the
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: guy in that extraordinary night vision photograph from August to
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, the last American service member to board
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 1: the final plane out of Afghanistan. Some people actually started
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: calling him a real life Captain America. But he was
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: forced out. He didn't voluntarily leave, he was forced out.
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 1: He'd only been running Army forces in Europe and Africa
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: for about eighteen months. There were efforts inside the Army
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 1: and on Capitol Hill to actually extend his career. He
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 1: was that well regarded, but Pete haig Seth wouldn't approve it. Why,
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: we don't know. His connection to the Afghanistan withdrawal has
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: certainly made him a political target before, and that appears
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 1: to be what hag Seth was focused on. Nobody established
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 1: publicly though, that that's why haig Seth pushed him out.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: But so I'm not nominating Christana, You're a president right here. Now.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: I don't know nearly enough about him, but he's the
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 1: type of candidate I think we need to be looking for.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: I'm curious about him being on the wrong side of
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: someone as unqualified as haig Seth already gives him a
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: leg up in my book. Given how atrociously hag Seth
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: has been running our military, I do worry what he
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 1: has done, how he's screwing up military recruiting. I mean
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 1: the long term damage he's doing here. Boy, we have
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: a lot of work to do. I mean, haig Seth,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: Blanche and Kennedy all three are next level disasters that
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 1: are going to require like super fun to type cleanup situations.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: But look, I'm looking for people who have actually done
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: difficult things, who've led institutions, who've served the country regardless
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: of party, and we might have enough credibility to look
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: at Americans and say, hey, you're right, this is fucked
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 1: up to this is fouobar, and we need to make
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: it unfood barred. The resume will get you in the door.
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 1: The question I don't know the answer to is whether
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: somebody like Donnie you could also channel the frustration of
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: that factory worker in Ohio, that young person who can't
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: afford a house, or that voter who thinks both political
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: parties have just lost their minds if he could, Well,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: that's the kind of person I'm talking about. So let
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: me finish something about this show and about why I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: think many of you tune in. Some of you are
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: here come here because you just want this straight of
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 1: a political analysis you can get that isn't constructed around
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: the knee jerk defense of either party. I've been doing
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 1: that for thirty plus years, so that's easy for me,
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 1: so I appreciate that. That certainly is what I'm trying
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: to give you. That's one part. Some of you come
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: here because there are questions you think are worth asking
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: that our political system, and frankly, sometimes my own profession
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: refuses to ask, let alone answer. I want to both
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: ask those questions and I want to try to answer them,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: but I don't always know the answer. Sometimes there isn't one.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the answer is uncomfortable. Sometimes it indicts people I
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: know and like, and sometimes it indicts people you know
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 1: and like. It's okay. I think the bigger problem in
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 1: American politics right now is that we've become terrified of
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 1: acknowledging obvious failure if doing so somehow helps the other side,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: and This is how we're in this doom loop in
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 1: both parties. That's what's killing us. Let me offer you
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 1: a bottom line analysis where I think the country is
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: right now. I don't think Americans are looking for nationalism,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: and I don't think Americans are looking for socialism. I
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: think Americans are looking for a reset, good old fashioned
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 1: control of the league. We're looking for honesty. We're looking
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 1: for some basic morality without the judgment. We're looking for
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: leaders who can say something is right or wrong without
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 1: immediately then turning it into a test of whether you're
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: a good person or a bad person, and whether they
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 1: can exploit it for political gain. They want what I
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 1: can only describe as an American way of thinking, which
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: means that, Yep, it's contradictory. We've always been contradictory. It's
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: about individualism and community. It's about capitalism and fairness, it's
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: about liberty and responsibility. It's about immigration and assimilation, distrust
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: of government and enormous expectations of government. Yes, we contain
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: all of these contradictions. That's what we are. That's America.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: But underneath all of it, there is traditionally been a
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: belief that whatever our arguments are We're ultimately supposed to
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: be on the same side that America is the good guys,
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: or at a minimum want to be the good guys.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 1: We're trying, and right now half the country is convinced
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 1: the other half is the bad guys. Not just with
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: the bad guys, but are the bad guys. Frankly, it's exhausting.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 1: It is exhausting to live inside of politics that demands
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 1: that you hate half of your fellow citizens. It is
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 1: exhausting to be told every election is the last election
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: or the most important election. It is exhausting, that every
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: disagreement is existential, that every compromises betrayal, that every opponent
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 1: is evil. We're just tired of it. And so right
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 1: now we're gravitating towards anybody who agrees with the one
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: conclusion that they already have reached. It's all focked up.
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: Say it with me now, folks, right, that's the entry point.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: If you don't share that conclusion, you're not going to
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 1: have any constituency listening to you. That's how Trump pulled
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 1: it off in sixteen. That's why some progressives are working
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: right now and winning. That's why outsider candidates keep getting audiences.
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: And keep earning those audiences because they begin with the diagnosis,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: this isn't working, and then the voters say, finally, somebody
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: said it. But here's the distinction. I do think that matters.
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: I don't believe most Americans actually want to burn the
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: system down. They're not Steve Bannon and they're not Hassan Piker.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 1: What they what they want is that simple control delete,
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 1: same laptop, same computer, Just a better functioning laptop and
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: a better functioning system. Can we just reboot it. Let's
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: get rid of whatever is causing this thing to freeze
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: up all the time. Let's clean out the crap that's
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: running in the background. Right, we need new people operating
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: this system. They don't necessarily want a brand new operating system.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: And I think our political class does keep misreading this.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: The populace right, here's the anger and says they want nationalism. No,
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 1: they don't. The progressive left here's the anger and says
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 1: they want socialism. And I don't think that either. They
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 1: just want some competence, They want some honesty, they want
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: some fairness, and they want leaders who aren't so obviously
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: captured by financial special interests. They want to meet politicians
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 1: who can admit a mistake or two government that does
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: some basic things well, and most important, they just want
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: to preserve the republic for which it stands. They're angry
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: at it, they're disappointed in it. They don't trust the
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: people running this country. But that doesn't mean they've given
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 1: up on the idea that America is different. There's a
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: difference between wanting to renovate the house and wanting to
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: bulldoze the house. And I still think more Americans want
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: to renovate this house where a bunch of rent vaders.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: They just can't believe who we've hired to maintain it.
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 1: So yes, maybe eventually this country decides it wants an
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: entirely different political system. That's always possible, but I do
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 1: not think that's where we are right now, at least
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: not yet. What Americans desperately wants a new generation of
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: people willing to reboot the existing system while preserving the
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: pieces that have actually worked. And that's why I keep
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: looking for these people. That's why somebody like a Captain
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: America Christanihu catches my attention, even though I know almost
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 1: nothing about his politics and have never met him. But again,
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 1: if Pete Haig Seth doesn't like him. I think eighty
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: percent of America will. That's why I used to wonder
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 1: about somebody like Bill mcgraven. I'm not here publicly recruiting
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: either one of them, but I am describing the archetype
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 1: that I think America needs. Someone who's actually done difficult things.
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 1: Somebody who has run something besides a political campaign. Somebody
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 1: who has demonstrated service to more than themselves. Somebody who
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: understands and institutions aren't captured and shouldn't be captured by
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: other institutions. Somebody who looks at all of this and
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: sees what we see, that it is fucked up, but
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: we're not burning it down. We're going to fix it.
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: We're going to roll up our sleeves. This political space
• 1:11:22
  Speaker 1: is just sitting there for somebody to fill this vacuum.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: Maybe it'll get filled by somebody inside one of these
• 1:11:27
  Speaker 1: two parties. I have my doubts, but it might. Maybe
• 1:11:31
  Speaker 1: there's a Democrat that has that has a little Barack
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: Obama in them. Maybe there's a Republican in the little
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 1: Teddy Roosevelt in them. I don't know. It probably comes
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 1: from an independent who doesn't even win, like Ross Perrault,
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 1: and maybe it's somebody we haven't heard of yet, but
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: that maybe that's the hopeful part of all of this.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: For all of the anger, all of the distrust, all
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 1: the dysfunction, I don't think people have given up on
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 1: this American experiment. They just want somebody to admit that
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: what they're we're seeing is what they say. So let's
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: just say it together. It's all fucked up, but it's
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 1: no reason to burn it all down. We just need
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: somebody who actually has served and understands the best part
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: of this system. All right, let me steak in the break.
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: When we come back speaking of broken systems, let me
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 1: tell you the story of Boeing after the break. So
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 1: my guest today is a familiar name to many of you.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 1: It's Rory Kennedy and she is here to talk about
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 1: a brand new documentary that it's going to be debuting
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 1: on Netflix on August nineteenth. It's called free Fall, Reckoning
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: for Boeing, and it's a pretty intense look inside of
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 1: just sort of what's gone wrong for Boeing over the
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: last fifteen to twenty years. Because it hasn't been a
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 1: good track record. They have had problems with launching new planes,
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 1: and the documentary really gets into questions about quality to control.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 1: It gets into questions about outsourcing and whether that may
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 1: have been a contributing factor. The type of leadership that
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 1: Boeing gravitated towards less about people who had expertise in
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 1: the industry and more about people who maybe had expertise
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 1: in putting stock prices higher and things like that. And
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 1: I will just tell you this about Roy's history and documentary,
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 1: She's done some terrific work. I've already seen this. This
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 1: is terrific. I be honest, I'm a little I'm going
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 1: to be a little more nervous the next plane Boeing
• 1:14:00
  Speaker 1: airplane I get on, and I think that is something
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 1: that that I won't be alone on here. But I
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: will confess that one of my favorite documentaries of the
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: recent era is one that Rory did about her mother, Ethel.
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 1: It is a favorite of myself and my wife. So
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: I am somebody who thinks if Rory's done, Rory Kennedy
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: has done a documentary, it is worth seeing, and I
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 1: invite her now to talk about it. Rory, nice to
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 1: see you.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: Thank you Chuck for such a sweet introduction.
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Well like I said, it was such a it's a
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 1: look for anybody that loves their political history, history, that
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 1: Kennedy family in general. Your doc on your mother Ethel
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: was just it was it was it was just terrific.
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 1: Thank you, and I know it was. It was something
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: like that. That's a that's a labor of love. Right.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 2: Well, yes, but I'm so you know, my mother, as
• 1:14:47
  Speaker 2: you know, passed away about a year and a half ago,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 2: two years ago almost, and so it's so it holds
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 2: a very special place with my heart.
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: Well I have to I'm going to guess that you
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: feel this, that you can you still look still surreal
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: that she's not here. Yes, yes, for many of us,
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: it's still She's always been here. It's been there, you know.
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, mister every day.
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: Let's talk about this uh documentary. And I want to
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 1: start with how did it get How did it come
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 1: to your attention?
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: Well, so, of co course I had made Downfall, the
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: Case against Bowing about four or five years ago that
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: looked at the seven thirty seven Max crashes, and you know,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 2: I was compelled to make that film because I had
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 2: been watching in the news and initially kind of the
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: blaming of pilots. But then two planes the same make
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 2: had crashed within five months of each other, killing three
• 1:15:46
  Speaker 2: hundred and forty six people. And in the making of that,
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 2: you know, it became very evident that Boeing knew a
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: lot about the systems in the plane that were faulty,
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: and you know, ultimately, over the course of many hearings
• 1:16:02
  Speaker 2: and investigations, admitted fault and took responsibility for what had
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 2: happened on those planes, and the planes were then grounded,
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: and Bowing assured us and the public and government that
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: they were going to change their ways and not just
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: prioritize money over safety. But pretty soon after those planes
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: got back into the air, we started seeing a lot
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: of the same problems that had led to those crashes happening.
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 2: And you know, I was reading the news, as I
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: think so many other people were, about incident after incident
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 2: of engines falling off of airplanes and smoke filling cabins,
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: and you know, and then of course the Alaska air incident,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 2: where where a window blew out of an airplane. And
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: at the same time, my friend who was a whistleblower
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: who I had known from Making Downfall, John Barnett, had
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: died while testifying against Boeing.
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was a strange I mean, that's how you
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: open the dock, and it is a pretty chilling way
• 1:17:17
  Speaker 1: to sort of introduce It certainly leads folks to believe
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: something the fairy has happened here. Do you believe that?
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: Well? I believe that Boeing is responsible for John's death.
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: And you know, I don't want to reveal too much
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: of what we learn in the film in terms of
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: the specificity of those circumstances and what in fact happened,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: but I do think that Boeing is responsible for his death.
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: So I was doing a little research for our conversation
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: because one of the one of the theories I've had
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: about Boeing's struggles is that this is the ultimate this
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 1: is what happens when capitalism gets perverted into a monopoly. So, uh,
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: in nineteen seventy, if you were an airline executive and
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 1: you were trying to buy a new jet, you had
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: four different models from Boeing, you had a couple of
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 1: models by Douglas Lockheed, Conveat, a Hawker, a Fokker. There
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 1: were over a dozen different airplanes you could choose from,
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: and five or six, it was a very diverse competitive
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: industry by nineteen ninety sort of cut in half. Today
• 1:18:39
  Speaker 1: you basically have two choices air Bus and Boeing. So
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 1: when you look at things like quality control, and you
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 1: look at things like cost cutting, and you know, when
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 1: you don't have competition, you know, these are the these
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 1: are the things that that seemed to s up in
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: a business that a business without competition doesn't have to
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 1: fear losing business. But if you're in a competitive market,
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 1: well then suddenly quality can matter. I mean, look, that's
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 1: a thirty thousand foot view from looking at this, but
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 1: I that's what I see here, and I'm curious how
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 1: you tackled it.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, listen, I think there are
• 1:19:26
  Speaker 2: a lot of reasons that Boeing has gotten a bit sloppy, right,
• 1:19:33
  Speaker 2: So I think the lack of competition is one of them.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 2: I think there's other. I think that you know, you
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 2: can go back to the McDonald Douglas merger and how
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 2: that impacted the company that I think is compelling, As
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: we document in the film, the influence of kind of
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 2: the Jack Welch model of how to run a company
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 2: and really focusing on shareholder profits over everything else. I
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: think also you know has had a significant influence. I
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: think there's also you know, again documented in the film,
• 1:20:16
  Speaker 2: the lack of regulation and sort of the punch being
• 1:20:20
  Speaker 2: pulled out of the FAA, the Federal Aviation Administration.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 1: Which gets a I think it's regulatory capture.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: I think that is a big part of it. I
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 2: think you do see, you know, a revolving door of
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 2: people who work between the FAA and Boeing.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 1: I'm interviewing you right now in Arlington, Virginia, and I
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 1: remember when Boeing moved essentially its headquarters, even though they
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: don't I'm so not sure what it considers its headquarters.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 1: Is it now Arlington versus Chicago, versus Seattle? But to
• 1:20:56
  Speaker 1: get this close to Washington, they seem to care more
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: about the regulation and the contracts than anything else.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, I think that's right, and it does seem
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: like and I agree that it's a bit murky as
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: to whether it's Chicago or in Arlington, but I think
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: that their main people are now right outside of DCT, So,
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: you know, I do think that the pushback on regulatory
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: agencies being able to do their job in this instance
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: has had a very significant influence on the choices that
• 1:21:31
  Speaker 2: Boeing is making internally and really not being held accountable
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: as a result. So, you know, I think all of
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: those have had significant influences on what we're seeing out
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 2: You know, when you're looking and you're you're thinking, gosh,
• 1:21:49
  Speaker 2: Bowing's got a lot of things going wrong with it
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: right now, You're right, You are right. There's a lot
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: going on inside the company that is leading to a
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: lot of into incidences. You know, in the world of airplane.
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 1: Flying, it feels like it's not one thing, it's like
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 1: ten things. Is that how you You've now tackled this
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 1: for multiple hours in your docs, right, do you feel
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: like there is a single source of this and it
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: created all of these problems, or that it's just a
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: poor leadership led to all of these problems.
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: No, I think that it's the former. I mean, I
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 2: think that as the film documents, you know, you really
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: see the Jack Welch influence. But you know, even though
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: there's been a lot of factors that have contributed to
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 2: Boeing being where it is right now, I think there
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: are also It's not that complicated to get it back
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: on track, you know, I think you need the regulations.
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: But you also you really need CEO to come in there,
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: preferably a CEO who has an engineering background and not
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: just a financial background. So you know that you.
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: Show you have this one clip of I think it's
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: mcnernie at a one of these investor I'm guessing it's
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 1: an investor conference. I don't know exactly where the clip
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 1: was from, where he basically admits I just wanted to
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 1: run a company, a company. Yeah, right, it was it,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 1: you know, And there's a lot Look, there's a lot
• 1:23:28
  Speaker 1: of companies that are run by people who just want
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: to be a CEO. They didn't say I want to
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: make cars, or I want to make airplanes or I
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: want to make you know, spacecraft. They just like, I
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 1: want to do quarterly reports. I guess, you know, I
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: want stock prices.
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So you know, the thing is is that I
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: you know, Boeing is one of the all time great
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: corporations in American history. You know, it's a it's a
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: company I've long admired.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 1: So it's like ge It's like co It's like these
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 1: foundational American companies. Right.
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I mean part of it is not really
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: the takedown of Boeing like I want Boeing to thrive,
• 1:24:11
  Speaker 2: I want Bowing to do the right thing. I want
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 2: Bowing to get on track. And it's not that hard.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 2: Like if the CEO comes in and says we're going
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 2: to prioritize safety over profits, and that just that message
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: trickles down and it means we're going to have you know,
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 2: safety and quality managers on the floor. If anybody sees
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 2: anything suspicious, we're going to stop the line. We're going
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: to put a pause on it. It's not that hard.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 2: We're going to higher quality people who know how to
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: build an airplane. We're not going to just move, you know,
• 1:24:46
  Speaker 2: to Charleston, South Carolina, where nobody knows how to build
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 2: an airplane. But there's no unions there, and so we're
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 2: going to save money by not having unions. We're going
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 2: to stop the outsourcing. I mean, you know, for an
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 2: airplane when you're having parts build all over the world.
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 1: And then one of the more amazing visuals in this dock,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 1: it was so it was so I mean it just
• 1:25:09
  Speaker 1: righting your where you have the entire airplane being put
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 1: together with the where the different parts were made, the
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: wings I think were one was South Korea another was
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: Australia and other words it was. It was quite striking,
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: and then of course you get to the oh, the
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 1: parts don't fit. You know. It's like getting your Ikea
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 1: kit and going oops, yeah, he doesn't to be.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, And it's not legos. It's like an airplane
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: and the parts just don't fit. You know, there's like
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: an inch separation between the fuselage and the main body
• 1:25:43
  Speaker 2: of the plane. And you're like, well, you know, it's.
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: Nothing a hammer doesn't fix. Like that was like one
• 1:25:48
  Speaker 1: of those you're like, are you kidding me?
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 2: Like the and then you see the guy like hammering
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 2: these parts to make them fit into airplanes, and you're
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 2: and then you I know, it.
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 1: Felt like a Homer Simpson moment. This is how Homer
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: Simpson might put together an airplane, but this didn't be
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: how Boeing does it right.
• 1:26:05
  Speaker 2: So, you know, and what we found in making the
• 1:26:08
  Speaker 2: film is just is in the aftermath of John's death,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: all these whistleblowers started coming forward and reaching out to
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: me saying, you know, it's worse than what it was
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 2: when you made Downfall. It's worse and you have to
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 2: come back and tell us.
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: The explanation of why it got worse. I mean, you know,
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: this crisis with Boeing is arguably over a decade now,
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: and it does feel as if they've just been running
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 1: in place. If in that made.
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: Well, I think that it's you know, the regulations have
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 2: gotten pulled back even further so and you know they
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 2: are there, they were not the CEOs were not held
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 2: criminally responsible. That case was Boeing actually had admitted that
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 2: it was criminally responsible, said that it would admit that,
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: and then the Justice Department withdrew the case and said,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: we don't want to hold them criminally responsible. So even
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 2: though the judge wanted to do it, and the people
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 2: wanted to do it and the families, but that was withdrawn.
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: So I think when those kinds of decisions are being
• 1:27:17
  Speaker 2: made at the top, it has an influence on what
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: Boeing is and who they become. And you know, they
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 2: have to be held accountable, and right now they're not
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 2: being held accountable.
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: Boeing would argue that they're trying to make their trying
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: to change their culture. Have you seen any evidence in
• 1:27:40
  Speaker 1: the last eighteen months. Are you hearing from your sources
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: in here that that there is a change yet in
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: Boeing because obviously between Doc one and Doc two there
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: was not it got worse.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, No, I'm not seeing significant changes.
• 1:27:54
  Speaker 1: Now, why do you think they board hasn't Why do
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: you think the board didn't prioritize an engineer as their leader.
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think what the film shows is that
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 2: their priority number one is making as much money as possible,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: and so I think that they're making choices to support
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: that mission.
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 1: The you start with the Jack Welch right, and there's
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 1: there was supposedly near close to the end of his life,
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: he expressed some regret at creating the quarterly earning obsession. Right.
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: There was a time that companies, you know, this idea
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 1: that if you're worrying about where, if you're worrying about
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: your stock price every three months, you're not thinking about
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: the long term direction of your company. You're not thinking
• 1:28:53
  Speaker 1: about an investment into maybe a product that might make
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: a lot of sense three years down the road, five
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: years down the road. That if a constantly worried about
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: every three months, right, and that is you know, I
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: assume that's the culture you were trying to refer to
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 1: when you tied it back to Welch, himself that it
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 1: was this sort of Welsh way. And what's interesting now is,
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 1: you know, you could argue that the Welch way is
• 1:29:15
  Speaker 1: what led Ge down the shrinking path that it's been
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 1: down right, and you make a compelling case that essentially
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 1: the Jack Welch way was destructive to both.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: Yes, well, I mean I think if you look, you know,
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: it's not just looking at the airplanes, and you know
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: all of the problems that they're having on their airplanes,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: but if you're looking at actually their quarterly reports and
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: how the company is doing, it's losing money. You know,
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: even even in this last quarter, it's lost I don't
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 2: have the exact number at my fingertips, but it's you know, many,
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: many millions of dollars and its value I think like
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: two hundred and eighty million dollars or something. So you know,
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: the company is not doing well. And then this is
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 2: a company that is subsidized, one of the biggest subsidized
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 2: companies in the history of the United States. So your
• 1:30:17
  Speaker 2: tax dollars are going to support Boeing, you know, through
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: our government. So and despite that, despite all the money
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: that we individuals are giving this company, you know, the
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: CEOs are doing great. There are some of the richest people,
• 1:30:34
  Speaker 2: as you know, one of our experts points out at
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: the end of the film, these are some of the
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: richest people in the history of the world, and yet
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: the company itself is continues to be in a free fall.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 1: You know, there was this question a few years ago
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 1: that that Boeing's leadership saw the airplane business as sort
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: of it's past and was trying to sort of shift
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: its focus, and that that was a contributing Some have
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: argued that that might have been a contributing factor to
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: it's sort of lost leadership in the in the airplane space.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 2: Is that a fair critical Well, I mean, I think
• 1:31:12
  Speaker 2: the McDonald Douglas merger, where it merged with you know,
• 1:31:19
  Speaker 2: military contract, you know, military supplier and prioritize that it
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: certainly has contributed enormously to Boeing's downfall.
• 1:31:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. You talk about how and why basically,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: why should you care about this if you don't fly?
• 1:31:41
  Speaker 1: And the answer is more than a third of their
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 1: revenue comes from the taxpayer, doesn't it. I think it's
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: something like thirty five percent. Is got some form of
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 1: government contract or military contract or bowing right.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's significant, But I mean, I think, listen, I
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 2: think we see these tendencies in a lot of corporations.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: But the truth is is that a lot of people fly,
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 2: and even if you don't fly, you probably have family
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: members who do fly, you know. And so part of
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: the reason I wanted to focus on Boeing itself is
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: because I think we are so many of us are
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: incentivized for this company to be safe and doing the
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 2: work it needs to do to ensure safety, you know,
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 2: and that we kind of bank on it. When we're
• 1:32:33
  Speaker 2: walking through the airport and getting on the airplane, we're
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: assuming the FAA is doing its job, that Congress is
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: doing its job, that Boeing is doing its job. And
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 2: what we show in this film is that none of
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 2: that's actually happening.
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: Look, let's crash at DCA about a year and a
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 1: half ago on frankly, a small American Airlines plane that
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: I fly almost constantly, right because it's the one airline
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: that you can fly to sort of small regional cities, yep,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: nonstops and so planes like that all the time. And
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 1: it turned out this was an FA issue, And I,
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 1: frankly still don't feel like we've gotten the full story
• 1:33:10
  Speaker 1: from the government, and so you know we're in this
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: period Rory, where in this era of distrust. I don't
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 1: know if I can trust what the FAA is telling me.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I can trust what corporate America
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 1: is telling me. And so you're telling me I've got
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 1: to trust Boeing, trust the FAA. And there's going to
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: be plenty of people. By the way, missus podcast was like,
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know if I want to watch this second
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 1: one because I do want to get on an airplane
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 1: and I don't want to fear getting on an airplane.
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: How safe do you think it is?
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I personally would not fly a seven
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: thirty seven Max as.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 1: You know, out of your way. Do you look for that?
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: I have friends that do they look and they find
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: out if the planes of Max they change the flight.
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't. So I do the research and I
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 2: do encourage other people to do the research. I also,
• 1:34:05
  Speaker 2: I mean, one of the you know, compelling moments in
• 1:34:09
  Speaker 2: my mind in the film is the undercover footage that
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: we show inside the seven eight seven Dreamliner factory where
• 1:34:17
  Speaker 2: a number of people who work in that factory are
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 2: asked given the opportunity. Listen, you can fly anywhere around
• 1:34:24
  Speaker 2: the world totally free. You can bring your family with you,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 2: totally free trip. You just have to fly a seven
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 2: eight seven Dreamliner. And every single one of them says, no,
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: thank you, there's zero chance I'm getting on this plane.
• 1:34:40
  Speaker 2: Why aren't you getting on this plane? Because I see
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: how it's being built. You know, these are the people
• 1:34:46
  Speaker 2: inside the factory who are saying there's no chance they
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 2: would get on a seven eight seven Dreamliner, So you know,
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: and then on top of that, you see all sorts
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 2: of other evidence that they're putting. You know, they're putting
• 1:35:04
  Speaker 2: used parts that are have been deemed broken with red
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 2: marks paint all across them, saying don't use this part
• 1:35:13
  Speaker 2: is broken being put on the airplanes. So it's you know,
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: it's concerning. So I personally, I would have avoid those
• 1:35:22
  Speaker 2: two planes, and I would just remind people that. And
• 1:35:28
  Speaker 2: I'm not I should be paid by Jet Blue, but
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: I'm not paid by Jet Blue. But Jet Blue does
• 1:35:33
  Speaker 2: not fly Boeing. They only fly air Bus. So you know,
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 2: if you can fly Jet Blue.
• 1:35:41
  Speaker 1: Do you think that I mean, you look, I don't
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: think it's a coincidence that Southwest has struggled. You know,
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: their whole business model was going all in on the
• 1:35:49
  Speaker 1: Boeing seven thirty seven, and it was a you know,
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 1: their wave efficiency was we were going to have just
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: one type of plane, so we had to train only
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: one set of mechanics and one supply, I said, the suppliers,
• 1:36:01
  Speaker 1: which you know, made sense for an airliner that was
• 1:36:05
  Speaker 1: trying to run as a discount airliner, but still have
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 1: And it worked until it didn't when they suddenly were
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 1: stuck with a fleet that a lot of people are
• 1:36:14
  Speaker 1: are a little bit nervous about.
• 1:36:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think those choices and for consumers to
• 1:36:20
  Speaker 2: become increasingly aware of what they're flying and making those
• 1:36:26
  Speaker 2: choices sense apart.
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 1: I don't have many choices, Rory. I mean, you know,
• 1:36:30
  Speaker 1: the airline industry is not you know, I mean just
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: take a look even at the three major three and
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 1: a half major airlines. I don't know what to call
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 1: it these days, but take the quote unquote the three
• 1:36:40
  Speaker 1: that fly the most domestic and international combined. Right, you're Delta,
• 1:36:44
  Speaker 1: You're United, You're American. You know, essentially there's only you know,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: you've got eighty percent, you know, of the flights out
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 1: of DC. It seems like it probably a little less
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 1: than that. You know, you really only have American if
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: you want to fly to the state of Florida, you
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: really only have you know what I mean, there's you
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 1: don't have choice. It is so as much as the
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 1: consumer may want to exercise some market friction here, the
• 1:37:12
  Speaker 1: entire industry doesn't allow you to.
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, what I would advise is looking at older
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: models of airplanes. Honestly, which it's ironic, but I think
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: the older models are safer.
• 1:37:29
  Speaker 1: Well, look, Boeing has an engineer now a CEO. That's
• 1:37:32
  Speaker 1: a small step in the right direction, right.
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: Yes, that is a small step in the right direction.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 2: So you know, we really need to see the kind
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: of choices being made on the ground and trickling down.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think there's a way to message that
• 1:37:55
  Speaker 2: they really want to prioritize safety, and I'm not seeing
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 2: that message trickle down to the ground.
• 1:38:05
  Speaker 1: One of the things you point out is was the decision,
• 1:38:07
  Speaker 1: and in hindsight, it's obvious why they wanted to build
• 1:38:11
  Speaker 1: this factory in South Carolina. They wanted to avoid unionization.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: They wanted to avoid union workers. You you you imply
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: very strongly that that led to massive Uh why sort
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: of the why quality control was that a low? Explain
• 1:38:31
  Speaker 1: why the why the you think the unions a union,
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 1: a unified workforce makes for better quality control?
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: Well, the unions with bowing, I mean, it's it's twofold
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: one is just the decision to leave Seattle was incentivized
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 2: by going to a place where there weren't unions, and
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 2: there had been kind of a union strike in Seattle,
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: so they were mad about that. They were like, well,
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 2: we're going to go to a place that doesn't have unions.
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 2: But in going to a new location in and of
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: itself where people didn't know how to build airplanes, you know,
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: and John Barnett his job was to hire people, and
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: there were just not enough people to hire who knew
• 1:39:23
  Speaker 2: how to build an airplane. So then they started reverting
• 1:39:25
  Speaker 2: to hiring people, you know, and I think he says,
• 1:39:29
  Speaker 2: quote unquote, if they knew how to use a screwdriver,
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: we started hiring them because there was nobody else left.
• 1:39:35
  Speaker 2: You know, they were hiring people who worked out of
• 1:39:37
  Speaker 2: McDonald's and Burger King, et cetera. So you know, the
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 2: quality that the knowledge of that group was limited and
• 1:39:47
  Speaker 2: contributed to shoddy work. But on top of that, the
• 1:39:51
  Speaker 2: unions itself protects the workers so that if a worker
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: complains and voices concern about safety, the union protects that person.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: So they're so they feel like, okay, well.
• 1:40:07
  Speaker 1: There's a whistleblower escially, there's whistleblower protection.
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: There's whistleblower protection built into kind of the union. And
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 2: then the unions are also you know, their leadership is
• 1:40:17
  Speaker 2: on the ground, and they're also have eyes watching what's happening,
• 1:40:22
  Speaker 2: and they're also looking out for their workers. And you know,
• 1:40:25
  Speaker 2: part of what you see in the film is these
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 2: workers who are building these airplanes and then the airplanes
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 2: crash and they feel responsible, right, so it takes a
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 2: very personal toll on them because they're on the front lines,
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: even though it's it's because of decisions that aren't being
• 1:40:46
  Speaker 2: made from the top and trickling down, you're seeing the
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 2: toll it has on them, and the unions are looking
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: out for that and and and you know, as a
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: group able to convey and a unified voice what the
• 1:41:01
  Speaker 2: workers are going through, which again creates a safety mechanism.
• 1:41:06
  Speaker 1: Is there a bus a better run company, you think,
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 1: or is it just We're just this is a Boeing problem.
• 1:41:13
  Speaker 1: This is not just air Bus surpassing them.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 2: No, I think air Bus is better run. I mean,
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: I think there's just that they are more safety focused
• 1:41:26
  Speaker 2: and that's more built into the fabric of the company.
• 1:41:30
  Speaker 1: How much of that is the you know, sort of
• 1:41:33
  Speaker 1: the frankly just a bit more of a robust regulatory
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: process in Europe.
• 1:41:40
  Speaker 2: I think that has a lot to do with it.
• 1:41:42
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's an obviously and a more uniformed union
• 1:41:47
  Speaker 1: set of union rules on the continent.
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yes, Yeah, I think there's a greater investment in
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 2: public safety and public interest right now. I mean, you know,
• 1:42:00
  Speaker 2: historically we as a country, you know, there's been different
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 2: times in our history where that has had more of
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 2: a focus, and I would say right now it's a
• 1:42:11
  Speaker 2: very low priority.
• 1:42:12
  Speaker 1: So imagine you're the CEO of Delta air Lines. These days,
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: they kind of I think they're they're sort of ahead
• 1:42:19
  Speaker 1: in the customer service race these days. Yes, if you
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: talk to frequent travelers who use all three of the yeah,
• 1:42:27
  Speaker 1: the big majors that I know, I feel that way.
• 1:42:29
  Speaker 1: You're like, I love Delta. Yeah, You're like, I get
• 1:42:32
  Speaker 1: free WiFi and do this. You know, why isn't it
• 1:42:35
  Speaker 1: that way at other airlines? Right? But if you're in
• 1:42:37
  Speaker 1: Delta and you're no good American company and you're and
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: you don't want to buy our bus and you don't
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: trust Boeing, where would you go.
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 2: To a bus?
• 1:42:52
  Speaker 1: Right? I mean this is the this this goes back
• 1:42:56
  Speaker 1: to sort of where I can I mean, how do
• 1:42:59
  Speaker 1: you the best way to punish Boeing is to have
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: them lose business, and they because that's the incentive to
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: improve their product. But if there's no competition, what is
• 1:43:10
  Speaker 1: their incentive to improve?
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean there is Airbus, and you can fly Airbus,
• 1:43:17
  Speaker 2: so I think that you know, at least there's somebody
• 1:43:22
  Speaker 2: else standing and then you know, I do think that
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 2: it is helpful for people to write letters to Boeing
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 2: and to their government officials, saying that they need to
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 2: hold Boeing responsible, that they need to get, you know,
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 2: give the FAA the tools that it needs to enforce
• 1:43:42
  Speaker 2: the laws and the regulations. And I think we're in
• 1:43:46
  Speaker 2: a position this fall to make smart choices in terms
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 2: of who's going to be in Congress and who's going
• 1:43:53
  Speaker 2: to be in the Senate to enforce the regulations. More
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: readily than the folks who are in there now. Dad said,
• 1:44:02
  Speaker 2: I do think this is a bipartisan issue. And you know,
• 1:44:05
  Speaker 2: you see in the film Senator Halley, who is who
• 1:44:10
  Speaker 2: really goes after Calhoun very forcefully in terms of, you know,
• 1:44:16
  Speaker 2: holding him at least accountable in a hearing. Right. So
• 1:44:21
  Speaker 2: that's meaningful. But then you have to follow that up with, Okay,
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: how are we going to actually create more enforceable laws
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 2: and regulations so that they are significant shifts that actually happen.
• 1:44:47
  Speaker 1: But then you look at the Trump administration and he
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: is an unabashed cheerleader of American companies. That's the most
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: generous way to talk about it when it comes, you know.
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: And he'll when he goes to China and like I'm
• 1:44:58
  Speaker 1: trying to get them to buy Boeing planes, He'll say
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: these things. He also put a Boeing former Boeing executive
• 1:45:04
  Speaker 1: as Defense Secretary in his first term. I mean it
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: is has and we go back to I mean, is
• 1:45:11
  Speaker 1: this administration going to regulate Boeing the way it needs
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: to be regulated?
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: We are not seeing that happen that has not happened today.
• 1:45:23
  Speaker 2: And I think you see in the film, you know,
• 1:45:26
  Speaker 2: you see the families meeting with the Department of Families
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 2: of victims whose family members had died in the seven
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: thirty seven Max crash, who are continuing, you know, their
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 2: effort to hold Boeing responsible, criminally responsible. They're meeting with
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 2: the Department of Justice. They're meeting with Boeing, and the
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 2: Department of Justice and Boeing are standing or sitting on
• 1:45:51
  Speaker 2: one end of the table and the families are on
• 1:45:54
  Speaker 2: the other right, and they're talking about how when they
• 1:45:58
  Speaker 2: speak up, there's just to complete dismissiveness of them, right. So,
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: you know, you feel the way these policies and these choices,
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 2: these government choices trickle down into real people's lives and
• 1:46:16
  Speaker 2: how it impacts them. You know, these families who lost children,
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 2: who lost family members, so heartbreaking and horrible, and that
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 2: it's five six years later now and they're still having
• 1:46:28
  Speaker 2: to fight this fight and they're still coming up against blockades, right,
• 1:46:33
  Speaker 2: and it shifts. You know, there's different administrations that have
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: been more amenable and collaborative with the families and fighting
• 1:46:45
  Speaker 2: for regulations than others. So I think it's important to
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: look at that because you know, these choices have an
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 2: impact on the safety of the airplanes that we and
• 1:46:58
  Speaker 2: our children and our families get on.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: You know what's really frustrating about this story, Rory and
• 1:47:03
  Speaker 1: I don't is how similar it feels to so many
• 1:47:07
  Speaker 1: of our other stories at the moment, meaning that ultimately
• 1:47:12
  Speaker 1: our government watchdogs aren't being watchdogs anymore. Yes, and you know,
• 1:47:17
  Speaker 1: we could sit here and say this is corporate greed,
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: but guess what, There's always going to be corporate greed, right.
• 1:47:23
  Speaker 1: That is that is sort of in some ways, the
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: whole point of regulation is to create incentive structures to
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: at least mitigate it or minimize it. You know, I'm
• 1:47:33
  Speaker 1: one of those who doesn't believe we have any you know,
• 1:47:36
  Speaker 1: we're not going to elect saints. You know, there are
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: most people aren't saints. You just give them incentives so
• 1:47:42
  Speaker 1: that being a saint is better than that pays better
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: than being a sinner. And this feels like a pattern
• 1:47:51
  Speaker 1: of yet another industry where Congress looked the other way.
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 1: Perhaps it was because they were financially captured, right, we
• 1:47:59
  Speaker 1: could probably make a huge connection on political donations. You know,
• 1:48:02
  Speaker 1: there's there's certainly that we've got all those government contracts,
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: and that it was this is another case of just
• 1:48:11
  Speaker 1: government not doing its job and the public not sure
• 1:48:14
  Speaker 1: where to turn right. If government's not going to be
• 1:48:17
  Speaker 1: on their side in this, then who is.
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 2: Well, that's the beauty of our election cycle. So I
• 1:48:27
  Speaker 2: think that, you know, I'm seeing this kind of concerning
• 1:48:33
  Speaker 2: pattern right now, and we have an opportunity to make
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 2: some choices this fall that could could you know, put
• 1:48:42
  Speaker 2: people in place who are more invested in the public interest.
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 2: And you know, listen, I mean, I think all of
• 1:48:50
  Speaker 2: us are are invested in corporations being successful and making
• 1:48:56
  Speaker 2: money and employing our our.
• 1:48:59
  Speaker 1: I always say, I'm I'm a free market capitalist, but
• 1:49:01
  Speaker 1: emphasis on free market, you know, the monopolies don't do
• 1:49:05
  Speaker 1: us any good.
• 1:49:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, So I think that's true. And I think
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: there's other things that are true with the case of
• 1:49:14
  Speaker 2: Boeing that could just make it so that we all
• 1:49:17
  Speaker 2: feel and are safer when we get on that airplane
• 1:49:22
  Speaker 2: and it goes up to thirty thousand feet.
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:49:25
  Speaker 2: One of the moments in the film, too, is John
• 1:49:29
  Speaker 2: John Barnett talking about one of his complaints, which Bowing dismissed,
• 1:49:36
  Speaker 2: was that the oxygen masks on the seventy eight to seven,
• 1:49:42
  Speaker 2: like fifteen percent of them didn't work when he did
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 2: some test on them, and then he ordered for more
• 1:49:49
  Speaker 2: of them to be tested and found that, in fact,
• 1:49:51
  Speaker 2: twenty five percent of them didn't work. And then when
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: we saw when the Alaska air blew out, the window
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: blew out, that the mask came down and many of
• 1:50:02
  Speaker 2: them didn't work, right, so his complaint. And then you
• 1:50:07
  Speaker 2: see like people trying to put their oxygen masks on
• 1:50:10
  Speaker 2: and they don't work and they can't breathe, you know,
• 1:50:14
  Speaker 2: And they were at ten thousand feet and they were
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: able to get down to like an oxygen level pretty quickly.
• 1:50:19
  Speaker 2: But imagine that having happening at thirty thousand feet. You
• 1:50:24
  Speaker 2: have twenty seconds to put the oxygen mask on before
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 2: it starts causing potential brain injury and potential death. And
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 2: like these oxygen masks aren't working, Like what.
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: It's It just goes back to what do the regulators
• 1:50:46
  Speaker 1: do if they're not testing that? Right, Like that's the
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: it's and it's again the airplane. Right, this is the
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 1: most regulated thing we supposedly do, right, you know, Government
• 1:50:59
  Speaker 1: decide whether you can get on that plane. Government decides
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 1: if that plane can park in your city. Government right,
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 1: like we have to rely on the government to make
• 1:51:08
  Speaker 1: the airline. This is not anything that's in our control.
• 1:51:12
  Speaker 1: That's what makes this so scary rory, is that we
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 1: have so little control, and as human beings, if we
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: don't have control of something, then we're more likely to say,
• 1:51:21
  Speaker 1: you know what, we're out.
• 1:51:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, but we do have some control because
• 1:51:26
  Speaker 2: there are choices you can make to not fly boeing
• 1:51:29
  Speaker 2: that hurts up financially. There's also choices you can make
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: to write letters, and there's also choices you can make
• 1:51:36
  Speaker 2: in electing officials who will but who believe in corporate success,
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: and also regulating them to make sure they're looking out
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: for public safety.
• 1:51:52
  Speaker 1: Before I let you go, how are you feeling about
• 1:51:55
  Speaker 1: politics these days in general? And how much more complicated
• 1:51:59
  Speaker 1: has it become because of how complicated it is now
• 1:52:04
  Speaker 1: that you have a sibling in on the other side.
• 1:52:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think it's you know, it's it's a
• 1:52:13
  Speaker 2: bit heart wrenching out there right now. I mean, I
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 2: think that across across the board. I think that you know,
• 1:52:21
  Speaker 2: this administration is making choices that are really hurting a
• 1:52:30
  Speaker 2: lot of people and making their lives increasingly difficult. And miserable,
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: and and a lot of people are are sick and
• 1:52:41
  Speaker 2: suffering as a result. So, you know, for me and
• 1:52:46
  Speaker 2: growing up in a family who has so believed in
• 1:52:49
  Speaker 2: the power of government to help people and to improve
• 1:52:54
  Speaker 2: people's lives, it's it's pretty heart wrenching to watch.
• 1:53:00
  Speaker 1: Do you think your brother's heart's in the right place
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: or do you think he's totally lost his way?
• 1:53:07
  Speaker 2: You know, I I'd rather not get into much about Bobby,
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 2: but I do think that you know, it's similar with Boeing,
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 2: Like you want you want engineers who are running Boeing, right,
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 2: you want people who know how to make an airplane
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 2: to run the company that makes airplanes. And it's similarly,
• 1:53:26
  Speaker 2: I think if you're you know, when you're putting somebody
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 2: in a position to run healthcare for this country, you
• 1:53:33
  Speaker 2: want somebody who is a doctor, who has a history
• 1:53:37
  Speaker 2: in public policy, who knows how to run, you know,
• 1:53:40
  Speaker 2: a multi multi billion dollar institution with thousands of employees,
• 1:53:45
  Speaker 2: and who you know is making decisions based on science.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: What's next? Are you going to stick with Boeing or
• 1:53:54
  Speaker 1: you got what you got? Any you know, you've got
• 1:53:57
  Speaker 1: a couple other docs percolating.
• 1:53:59
  Speaker 2: Thank you for asking check. I've got a couple other
• 1:54:01
  Speaker 2: dogs percolating, and I'm not in a position to talk
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 2: about them right now, but I'm excited to come back
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 2: onto the Chuck Dot Todd Show and talk about them
• 1:54:12
  Speaker 2: when they're done.
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Do you are you? I'm just curious
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 1: how you work. Are you somebody that is one project
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: twenty four to seven or are you three or four
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: projects sort of simultaneously as and then as one gets going,
• 1:54:28
  Speaker 1: then you sort of gravitation usually.
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: Like one or two projects at a time. Yeah, three
• 1:54:35
  Speaker 2: three is a little too much for me. I did
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 2: three like in the last year and a half, and
• 1:54:40
  Speaker 2: that was that threw the balance off. But I too,
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 2: especially if i't. They're on different timeframes that I can handle.
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 2: And I luckily work with a really fantastic group of people,
• 1:54:55
  Speaker 2: including my husband Mark Bailey, who's producer and writer on this,
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 2: and we have a fantastic team who works with us
• 1:55:03
  Speaker 2: and supports our efforts.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm excited that you worked with my friends at
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: d C Docks. I mean, I'm a huge you know.
• 1:55:09
  Speaker 1: I love what they do. When I was at Meet
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 1: the Press, we had our own film festival. We worked
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 1: very closely with Jamie and Shore and everything that she
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 1: did with d C Docs. I was just excited to
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: see you, you know, and hopefully you'll debut your next
• 1:55:23
  Speaker 1: one with them as well.
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah. No, I love them, and it's probably a really
• 1:55:26
  Speaker 2: good film to premiere in Washington, d C.
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, yes it was. I might argue maybe we could
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: premie it in Arlington, Virginia. I can tell you a
• 1:55:34
  Speaker 1: studio really really close to a certain headquarters.
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 2: Maybe we could project something on the outside of a
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: building there.
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:55:44
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: By the way, did you ever hear from many executives
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 1: directly after the first one?
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: Well, funnily enough, I did run into an executive. I
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: was in Hyannasport a couple of years ago and ran
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 2: into my cousin Teddy, who anyway, we were on like
• 1:56:06
  Speaker 2: a boat together coming in, and he was like, Oh,
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 2: you should meet so and so. She's a top executive
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 2: at Boeing, and you know, he was very happy to
• 1:56:15
  Speaker 2: tell her that I had made Downfall, and she was
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 2: interesting because she had seen Downfall and said that they
• 1:56:23
  Speaker 2: had done a private screening out Bowing with like the
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: top two hundred executives.
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 1: That's a win.
• 1:56:30
  Speaker 2: Rory Yeah, so that was something. And she said, you know,
• 1:56:35
  Speaker 2: none of us could find any facts that we're incorrect
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 2: in that film, and you know we paid attention to it.
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 2: But anyway, I guess they didn't pay attention to it
• 1:56:44
  Speaker 2: for that long.
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: August nineteenth Netflix. I don't have to tell people where
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: to find Netflix. I hope these days. The first one
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 1: was Downfall.
• 1:56:53
  Speaker 2: This is free Fall, free Fall, reckoning for Boeing.
• 1:56:57
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, congratulations, thanks for coming on. It was great.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: Thanks Chuck.
• 1:57:06
  Speaker 3: It's time Machine time and I doing something a little
• 1:57:16
  Speaker 3: bit different today with this week's time Machine.
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: As you know, there's a debate taking place. Shoot, I
• 1:57:21
  Speaker 1: just spent some time hinting at it in the opening
• 1:57:24
  Speaker 1: monologue of this episode. But there's a debate taking place
• 1:57:27
  Speaker 1: inside the Democratic Party right now that we're increasingly describing
• 1:57:30
  Speaker 1: as a fight over socialism. How much should Democrats embrace socialism?
• 1:57:34
  Speaker 1: Is the word itself politically disqualifying? Is it's an ideological fight,
• 1:57:37
  Speaker 1: a generational fight? Are we allowing a label to do
• 1:57:41
  Speaker 1: more work than the actual policies underneath it? Meanwhile, something
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: almost as interesting as happening on the right right, Donald
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: Trump's Republican Party certainly isn't calling itself the Republican Socialists
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: of America. Quite the opposite. But if you look at
• 1:57:53
  Speaker 1: their economic philosophy, it's embracing tariffs, industrial policy, governing ownership
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: stakes in companies, and increasingly explicit willingness to use federal
• 1:58:03
  Speaker 1: power to steer markets toward outcomes the government considers better
• 1:58:08
  Speaker 1: for American workers or American national power. Let's just say
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: this ain't Reagan era free market conservatism either, right, So
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: maybe the economic argument we're having isn't quite the one
• 1:58:18
  Speaker 1: that our political labels suggest. But because Americans have always
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: had a complicated relationship with socialism, we've spent generations denouncing
• 1:58:26
  Speaker 1: it as fundamentally on American while repeatedly embracing individual policies that,
• 1:58:32
  Speaker 1: depending on how you're described, could easily sound socialists. Sometimes
• 1:58:37
  Speaker 1: they come from democratic presidents and sometimes they come from
• 1:58:40
  Speaker 1: Republican presidents. So as we're debating and decrying socialism again
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: in this particularly polarized moment, I think a little historical
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: reality check is useful. And let me just tell you
• 1:58:52
  Speaker 1: the calendar this week cooperated with me like no other week.
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: Because we have two anniversaries one day apart. They give
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: us an almost perfect way into this complicated story of
• 1:59:03
  Speaker 1: America's love affair with socialism. Maybe the real question is
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 1: in whether America has periodically embraced socialist ideas. We clearly have.
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 1: The better question is why some of those ideas become
• 1:59:15
  Speaker 1: thoroughly American while others trigger exactly the ideological reaction you'd expect.
• 1:59:22
  Speaker 1: And it brings me to one of my favorite little
• 1:59:24
  Speaker 1: contradictions in American politics. Nobody says my socialist retirement check
• 1:59:28
  Speaker 1: showed up today. They say my social Security check showed
• 1:59:32
  Speaker 1: up today. And I want to start there because we have,
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: like I said, two anniversaries this week, one day apart
• 1:59:40
  Speaker 1: on the calendar, thirty six years apart in history that
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: I think tell us something fascinating about America's relationship with
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 1: economic ideology. August fourteenth, nineteen thirty five, Franklin Roosevelt signs
• 1:59:52
  Speaker 1: the Social Security Act. August fifteenth, nineteen seventy one, Richard
• 1:59:57
  Speaker 1: Nixon goes on television and announces a nine day freeze
• 2:00:00
  Speaker 1: on wages and prices. Now, if I wanted to make
• 2:00:04
  Speaker 1: an ideological argument and a cheap six hundred word op
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: ed and the Washington Post using these two anniversaries, it
• 2:00:12
  Speaker 1: would be pretty easy, right. Hey, look, see, we've always
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: been kind of socialists. Democratic president creates federal social insurance.
• 2:00:22
  Speaker 1: Then Richard Nixon, the guy you know who went after
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 1: Alger Hiss the House on American Affairs Committee, the Cold warrior.
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 1: Richard Nixon tells private businesses what they can charge, in
• 2:00:30
  Speaker 1: private employers what they can pay. You could use just
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: those simple facts to argue that America has always been
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 1: more socialists than Americans want to admit. Well, the facts
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 1: aren't necessarily wrong, but I actually think the conclusion is,
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: or at least it's misleading, because when you dig into
• 2:00:47
  Speaker 1: these two anniversaries, you actually discover something more interesting about
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: the way Americans actually think about economics. We're not particularly
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: interested in ideological consistency. As I said, America were a
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 1: walking contradiction, right. Our initial constitution was a contradiction. Right.
• 2:01:02
  Speaker 1: We were trying to you know, all men are created equal,
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: and we didn't write all white males are created equal. Right,
• 2:01:11
  Speaker 1: and yet that is kind of what we were. Right.
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 1: We've been this walking contradiction. But we are interested in prosperity.
• 2:01:20
  Speaker 1: And when prosterous, when prosperity appears threatened, that's when we've
• 2:01:24
  Speaker 1: shown ourselves willing to borrow from almost anybody. Karl Marx,
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 1: John Maaterer, Kaynes Future, Kayak, Milton Friedman, go all the
• 2:01:31
  Speaker 1: way back to John Locke. I know all of you going,
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: oh my god, Chuck, don't do this to me. Don't
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: give me an economics lesson. No, no, no, I'm not giving
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: an economics lesson. That was it. That's all you need
• 2:01:41
  Speaker 1: to know. But the point is, if you're trying to
• 2:01:43
  Speaker 1: fit the United States neatly into one of those intellectual
• 2:01:46
  Speaker 1: traditions associated with those names, good luck. We've developed something
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: considerably less tidy, a distinctly American economic ideology, prosperity by
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: any means necessary, preferably while leaving us with the feeling
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: that we're still in control of our own lives. So
• 2:02:04
  Speaker 1: let's start in nineteen thirty five, because you can't import
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 1: the Cold War meaning of socialism backwards onto the depression.
• 2:02:11
  Speaker 1: The Cold War hadn't happened yet, the demonization of the
• 2:02:14
  Speaker 1: word through the prism of the Cold War hadn't happened yet.
• 2:02:17
  Speaker 1: So socialism certainly was still controversial in the thirties. Communism
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 1: was certainly controversial in the thirties, but it did not
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 1: have that black mark to it that the Cold War
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: gave it. There was an actual argument taking place over
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: these ideas because capitalism was in the middle of experiencing
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 1: a catastrophic failure with the Great Depression. In fact, we
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 1: shouldn't forget there was a guy named Norman Thomas who
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 1: ran openly as the socialist candidate for president and received
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 1: nearly a million votes in nineteen thirty two. Milwaukee, as
• 2:02:50
  Speaker 1: Alice Cooper taught us in the movie Wayne's World, had
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: a socialist mayor, had three of them, actually, but one
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: of them Daniel Hoane. He served for twenty four years.
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: Communists were organizing workers and unemployed Americans. Upton Sinclair, who
• 2:03:04
  Speaker 1: himself was a longtime socialist, switched to the Democratic Party,
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: ran for governor in nineteen thirty four and what he
• 2:03:10
  Speaker 1: called the Epic Program and Poverty in California. He lost
• 2:03:15
  Speaker 1: by eleven points, but he didn't lose by fifty. He
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: came considerably closer than the political establishment of that era
• 2:03:23
  Speaker 1: had expected. To freak some people out. Campaigns scared the
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 1: hell out of a lot of people. You see, ideological
• 2:03:30
  Speaker 1: argument was real. In its day. Capitalism was being questioned
• 2:03:33
  Speaker 1: because a low great depression. Now, Roosevelt's answer wasn't to
• 2:03:38
  Speaker 1: replace capitalism. The New Deal, in many ways, was an
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 1: attempt to make capitalism work well enough that Americans wouldn't
• 2:03:46
  Speaker 1: want to replace it. It was intended to repair capitalism.
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 1: And that's the world in which social security arrives. It's
• 2:03:56
  Speaker 1: worth remembering what Roosevelt actually signed, also because it isn't
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: social security system you know today. The nineteen thirty five
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 1: law created federal old age insurance for covered workers, financed
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 1: through payroll taxes. It established a federal state unemployment compensation system,
• 2:04:15
  Speaker 1: and it created assistance programs for vulnerable Americans. But the
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: retirement insurance portion covered only part of the workforce. AG
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: workers were excluded at the time, domestic workers were excluded
• 2:04:27
  Speaker 1: at the time, many government workers were outside of it.
• 2:04:30
  Speaker 1: Those exclusions disproportionately impacted Black Americans, particularly in the South.
• 2:04:35
  Speaker 1: This was in a much smaller program than the one
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: we now know today, and which may precisely be why
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: they got it right, because then watch what happens. In
• 2:04:45
  Speaker 1: nineteen thirty nine, benefits are extended to dependent spouses and
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 1: children and to survivors. In nineteen fifty, Congress brings roughly
• 2:04:52
  Speaker 1: another ten million people into coverage, including many domestic and
• 2:04:55
  Speaker 1: farm workers and the non farm self employed. Then farm
• 2:05:00
  Speaker 1: operators themselves come in with the nineteen fifty four expansion.
• 2:05:03
  Speaker 1: That same year, Congress creates the Disability Freeze, protecting the
• 2:05:06
  Speaker 1: retirement records of workers who became disabled. Nineteen fifty six
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: comes the actual disability insurance benefits as part of Social Security.
• 2:05:14
  Speaker 1: Sixty one, men gained the option. Women already had to
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: claim reduced retirement benefits at the age of sixty two.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 1: In nineteen sixty five, Medicare rise as part of the
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: broader social security architecture. Then in seventy two, Congress rits
• 2:05:29
  Speaker 1: automatic cost of living adjustments into the law. Those are
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: the first automatic COLA adjustments. And then it creates the
• 2:05:36
  Speaker 1: Supplemental Security Income, which begins in seventy four. Then, of course,
• 2:05:40
  Speaker 1: we had the rescue of the program in eighty three,
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 1: and we're still doing changing this thing. In January of
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty five, another law changed benefits for millions of
• 2:05:50
  Speaker 1: public sector retirees. It used to be if you've got
• 2:05:53
  Speaker 1: a state government pension, you had to give up your
• 2:05:56
  Speaker 1: Social Security benefits. Now you don't have to do that anymore.
• 2:05:58
  Speaker 1: So ninety years this legislation has been around, and we've
• 2:06:01
  Speaker 1: made all these changes. So what Americans today casually call
• 2:06:05
  Speaker 1: social security was never enacted in one burst of ideological
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 1: ambition because guess what, it never would have been enacted.
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: It accumulated peace by piece under presidents of both parties.
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 1: And I've always believed this is an underrated political lesson
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 1: for us. Imagine FDR walking into Congress in nineteen thirty
• 2:06:25
  Speaker 1: five and asking for everything we eventually built as part
• 2:06:29
  Speaker 1: of Social Security, retirement insurance, approaching universal coverage, survivor spouse's disability, medicare,
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 1: automatic inflation protection. Do you think that thing passes? No chance?
• 2:06:39
  Speaker 1: Probably doesn't even make it on the floor, make it
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 1: out of committee. What did he do? Instead? He established
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 1: a principle, and then people experienced the program, and then
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 1: it develops a constituency. Well, then it's easy to expand,
• 2:06:52
  Speaker 1: isn't it. Incrementalism gets treated in our politics it's evidence
• 2:06:56
  Speaker 1: that somebody lacks ambition. Bullshit. What incrementalism actually is is
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 1: how ambitious change becomes permanent, at least in our system,
• 2:07:07
  Speaker 1: and eventually the ideological argument pads away. Nobody says my
• 2:07:11
  Speaker 1: socialist retirement check showed up. We call it social Security.
• 2:07:15
  Speaker 1: We americanized it. Now, before we get to my story
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: on Nixon, there's an obvious interruption in this story. World
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: War two America actually imposed price controls and rationing that
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: were far more intrusive than anything Richard Nixon would attempt.
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 1: In nineteen seventy one, the Office of Price Administration controlled
• 2:07:32
  Speaker 1: prices across enormous portions of the economy. Americans used ration
• 2:07:37
  Speaker 1: books for gasoline, sugar, meat, and other necessities, and Americans
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: largely accepted it. But there was a substantial black market meat,
• 2:07:45
  Speaker 1: especially because even during a war, people found ways around
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 1: economic controls. But politically the system held, and the reason matters.
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 1: There was a war, so that was shared sacrifice, and
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 1: everybody understood the controls were temporary. The emergency justified the intervention,
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: and when the emergency ended, Americans wanted their normal economic
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: lives back. So keep that in mind. Now, let's move
• 2:08:07
  Speaker 1: forward exactly thirty six years and one day from Social
• 2:08:11
  Speaker 1: Security to August fifteenth, nineteen seventy one. That socialist powerhouse
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: known as Richard Milhouse. Nixon has a Sunday evening conversation
• 2:08:20
  Speaker 1: with Americans. Now here's the difference from World War II.
• 2:08:24
  Speaker 1: There was no war requiring economic mobilization. There was no
• 2:08:30
  Speaker 1: shared sacrifice, There was no obvious moment when this intervention
• 2:08:33
  Speaker 1: was supposed to be finished. If inflation didn't cooperate. If
• 2:08:36
  Speaker 1: social security demonstrates how America can gradually absorb an idea
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: that once sounded radical and socialist. Nixon demonstrates how quickly
• 2:08:44
  Speaker 1: we'll throw ideology overboard when voters are angry enough about
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: the economy. Inflation is becoming a political problem. In seventy one,
• 2:08:52
  Speaker 1: the dollar itself is under pressure, and Nixon has his
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: own election coming. So he goes on TV in a
• 2:08:58
  Speaker 1: Sunday night and announces what became known as the Nixon Shock.
• 2:09:01
  Speaker 1: He closes the gold window right essentially ends the gold standard.
• 2:09:05
  Speaker 1: He puts a ten percent surcharge on imports, and for
• 2:09:08
  Speaker 1: ninety days, he freezes wages and prices across the United States.
• 2:09:12
  Speaker 1: For ninety days, Washington tells private businesses what they can
• 2:09:16
  Speaker 1: charge and private employers what they can pay. Call it socialists,
• 2:09:21
  Speaker 1: call it communists, call it whatever ideological label you want.
• 2:09:25
  Speaker 1: Richard Nixon wasn't trying to change America's economic system. He
• 2:09:28
  Speaker 1: just was desperate to stop inflation. And this won't surprise you. Initially,
• 2:09:33
  Speaker 1: Americans loved the idea. Why they were exhausted and sick
• 2:09:36
  Speaker 1: and tired of inflation, and so any relief helped. They
• 2:09:39
  Speaker 1: wanted somebody to make it stop. Ideological consistency was not
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 1: nearly as important as getting prices under control. Again, what
• 2:09:50
  Speaker 1: is our real economic identity in America? Prosperity by any
• 2:09:54
  Speaker 1: means necessary. Keep that in mind. The ninety day freeze
• 2:09:58
  Speaker 1: was simple and then an ended, but the controls didn't.
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: Phase two created a price commission and a payboard. Washington
• 2:10:06
  Speaker 1: now had to decide what constitutes and a legitimate price increase,
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: what constitutes an acceptable wage increase, in which exceptions are justified.
• 2:10:17
  Speaker 1: We had more phases. By early nineteen seventy three, food
• 2:10:20
  Speaker 1: prices were surging. On March twenty ninth of that year,
• 2:10:23
  Speaker 1: the administration imposes specific ceilings on beef, pork, and lamb prices.
• 2:10:30
  Speaker 1: Then on June thirteenth, Nixon announces another broader price freeze.
• 2:10:34
  Speaker 1: Eventually you get the wonderfully clarifying problem of empty meat cases.
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 1: Washington could tell the supermarket what it was allowed to
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: charge for beef. But it couldn't make a rancher sell
• 2:10:47
  Speaker 1: cattle at a price they didn't think made any economic sense.
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: So guess what the people that owned the cow said,
• 2:10:55
  Speaker 1: I ain't selling my cows right now translation empty meat cases.
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 1: So producers have their animals back. Processors reduced activity, and
• 2:11:07
  Speaker 1: the shortages appeared. And actually here's where history starts rhyming
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: almost absurdly. So if you had gone back simply twenty
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: seven years in fact, nineteen forty six, I believe, the
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: year Richard Nixon got elected to Congress. By the way,
• 2:11:22
  Speaker 1: the wartime controls were coming apart. The inflation is a
• 2:11:25
  Speaker 1: major political problem. There are strikes everywhere, meat disappears from
• 2:11:29
  Speaker 1: stores as producers resist these still controlled prices. And then
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: Harry Truman finally lifts meat controls in October, just weeks
• 2:11:38
  Speaker 1: before the midterm election. So that election wasn't a referendum
• 2:11:41
  Speaker 1: on beef. Inflation, strikes, shortages, frustrations with controls were all
• 2:11:46
  Speaker 1: part of that environment. But Republicans had a devastatingly simple
• 2:11:51
  Speaker 1: slogan at the time. Add enough and they took both
• 2:11:54
  Speaker 1: houses of Congress. Twenty seven years later, another president who
• 2:11:58
  Speaker 1: got elected in that class of Congress, by the way,
• 2:12:02
  Speaker 1: is learning essentially the same lesson as the same meat
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: at the same meat counter. And this is something presidents
• 2:12:07
  Speaker 1: do from time to time. They rediscover old economic ideas
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: and convince themselves, well, the circumstances are different enough, and
• 2:12:13
  Speaker 1: maybe this time they'll work differently. Price controls, tariffs, industrial policy.
• 2:12:21
  Speaker 1: Sometimes maybe they're right for a moment, but sometimes history
• 2:12:25
  Speaker 1: is sitting there waiting to say, we tried this already.
• 2:12:28
  Speaker 1: Nixon's controls in various phases, persistent until April of seventy four,
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 1: for nearly three years. The public enthusiasm faded long before
• 2:12:37
  Speaker 1: the publicly policy completely disappeared. And I think all of
• 2:12:41
  Speaker 1: this helps explain a lot of the supposedly contradictory American
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: economic policy. We subsidize agriculture because we decided food production
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: and rural stability are too important to leave completely to
• 2:12:52
  Speaker 1: commodity markets. Is that socialism? We created the GI bail
• 2:12:57
  Speaker 1: and spend enormous federal resources helping veterans attend college to
• 2:13:00
  Speaker 1: buy homes. Set socialism, then two thousand and eight arrives
• 2:13:03
  Speaker 1: in a Republican administration helps rescue the financial system because
• 2:13:07
  Speaker 1: ideological consistently suddenly looks less important than preventing another depression.
• 2:13:12
  Speaker 1: We don't usually call these things socialism. We give them
• 2:13:15
  Speaker 1: American names, foreign policy, the GI bill, financial stabilization. And
• 2:13:21
  Speaker 1: there's another ingredient here that matters control. Americans want to
• 2:13:27
  Speaker 1: believe we're making our own decisions. Sometimes we actually are.
• 2:13:31
  Speaker 1: Sometimes the control is more perceived than real. Think about
• 2:13:35
  Speaker 1: the original backlash to Obamacare. One of the most powerful
• 2:13:37
  Speaker 1: fears was that government was going to take away control
• 2:13:39
  Speaker 1: of your healthcare. Well, of course, plenty of Americans didn't
• 2:13:42
  Speaker 1: have nearly as much of control of their healthcare as
• 2:13:44
  Speaker 1: they claim they had at the moment. Their employer chose
• 2:13:47
  Speaker 1: the insurance company. The insurance company chose the network to
• 2:13:51
  Speaker 1: find the doctors that were covered. You lose your job,
• 2:13:54
  Speaker 1: and you could lose the insurance. But the perception of
• 2:13:56
  Speaker 1: control matter. And look at why other enormous interventions feel
• 2:14:02
  Speaker 1: nearly as threatening. So security gives you money, and then
• 2:14:05
  Speaker 1: you decide how to spend it. The GI bil helps
• 2:14:08
  Speaker 1: pay for college, and you choose the school. A farm
• 2:14:11
  Speaker 1: subsidy supports the farmer while the farmer still runs the farm.
• 2:14:15
  Speaker 1: These policies use collective power to increase what feels like
• 2:14:18
  Speaker 1: individual capacity. Central planning feels different. Government begins by making
• 2:14:25
  Speaker 1: the underlying choices, and that's when Americans do get nervous.
• 2:14:29
  Speaker 1: We've never been nearly as allergic to government economic intervention
• 2:14:33
  Speaker 1: as our rhetoric suggests. We're much more allergic to concentrated
• 2:14:38
  Speaker 1: control over what we think should be our choices. And
• 2:14:43
  Speaker 1: authoritarian governments illustrate the distinction. They can tolerate substantial market activity,
• 2:14:48
  Speaker 1: but when market independence threatens political control, political control tends
• 2:14:53
  Speaker 1: to win, and they become authoritarianism. This is why you
• 2:14:57
  Speaker 1: never have Ultimately, you really have a free capitalistic society
• 2:15:03
  Speaker 1: in an authoritarian regime. The two can't coexist. That brings
• 2:15:08
  Speaker 1: me to twenty twenty six, because we're running another American
• 2:15:10
  Speaker 1: economic experiment right now. The Republican Party has spent generations
• 2:15:14
  Speaker 1: identifying itself with free enterprise and skepticism towards government picking
• 2:15:18
  Speaker 1: winners and losers, and yet today the federal government owns
• 2:15:21
  Speaker 1: stakes and companies across semiconductors, critical minerals, and now quantum computing.
• 2:15:26
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump's Republican Party. With this, the Intel Deal remains
• 2:15:29
  Speaker 1: the most famous. The government acquired a ten percent stake,
• 2:15:32
  Speaker 1: a figure that reflected still reflected, and most reporting they
• 2:15:36
  Speaker 1: added aggressive tariffs in industrial policies. Add government deliberately trying
• 2:15:41
  Speaker 1: to steer private investment towards industries that Washington considers strategically important.
• 2:15:48
  Speaker 1: This isn't a president reluctantly intervening because voters demanded a
• 2:15:52
  Speaker 1: particular kind of rescue, but it is a governing philosophy.
• 2:15:57
  Speaker 1: The administration believes federal power can be used to reshape
• 2:15:59
  Speaker 1: more markets in ways that strengthen American industry and national power.
• 2:16:04
  Speaker 1: And some Republicans themselves do look at pieces of this,
• 2:16:07
  Speaker 1: and they do use the word socialism. So I don't know.
• 2:16:11
  Speaker 1: I'm not saying Donald Trump is secretly a socialist. I
• 2:16:15
  Speaker 1: bring it up because it's the Nixon rhyme here, right.
• 2:16:17
  Speaker 1: Once again, a president whose party identifies itself with free
• 2:16:20
  Speaker 1: markets is deciding what market outcomes aren't necessarily the outcomes
• 2:16:24
  Speaker 1: the country should accept lost factories, foreign dependence, supply chain vulnerability.
• 2:16:30
  Speaker 1: The answer becomes intervention. And once again we're discovering that
• 2:16:33
  Speaker 1: American presidents aren't particularly interested in passing an ideological purity
• 2:16:37
  Speaker 1: test either. When they believe the perception of prosperity is
• 2:16:40
  Speaker 1: at stake. Maybe some of these interventions will work, and
• 2:16:44
  Speaker 1: maybe some won't, And maybe twenty years from now, another
• 2:16:46
  Speaker 1: president will rediscover one of these bad ideas that failed
• 2:16:49
  Speaker 1: and decide the circumstances have changed enough to try it again.
• 2:16:53
  Speaker 1: That's part of the American experiment. So go back to
• 2:16:57
  Speaker 1: these two anniversaries. April fourteenth, nineteen thirty five, fran Glen
• 2:17:00
  Speaker 1: Roosevelt signed social Security. August fifteenth, nineteen seventy one, Richard
• 2:17:04
  Speaker 1: Nixon freeses wages and prices. You can use those two
• 2:17:07
  Speaker 1: anniversaries to make an argument that America's always been more
• 2:17:10
  Speaker 1: socialists than we'd like to admit. There's plenty of evidence
• 2:17:14
  Speaker 1: you can partial. I just don't think you'd be the
• 2:17:16
  Speaker 1: explaining America very well. Social Security survives because Americans found
• 2:17:20
  Speaker 1: it useful, because it grew incrementally, and because it leaves
• 2:17:23
  Speaker 1: beneficiaries with substantial individual control of their own lives, and eventually,
• 2:17:28
  Speaker 1: because it stopped feeling like somebody else's ideology, it became
• 2:17:32
  Speaker 1: our idea, a very American version of it. Nixon's controls
• 2:17:36
  Speaker 1: lasted almost three years and ultimately demonstrated the limits of
• 2:17:40
  Speaker 1: asking Washington to administer prices throughout a complex economy. And
• 2:17:45
  Speaker 1: now we're experimenting again with tariffs, which have proven time
• 2:17:48
  Speaker 1: and again to be huge failures and only be taxes
• 2:17:51
  Speaker 1: on American consumers. We're trying it again with industrial policy,
• 2:17:54
  Speaker 1: which only I mean again the Boeing conversation. You know,
• 2:17:59
  Speaker 1: when government props up one corporation, quality control will go down.
• 2:18:04
  Speaker 1: Direct government stakes don't help things. But it's what we do.
• 2:18:08
  Speaker 1: We borrow, we improvise. We occasionally forget what happened the
• 2:18:11
  Speaker 1: last time we tried it, and sometimes we try it
• 2:18:13
  Speaker 1: again because we convince ourselves, no, this time is different.
• 2:18:16
  Speaker 1: You even't done it the way I'm doing it now.
• 2:18:19
  Speaker 1: Try fitting all that neatly into call Mars, John Mayner, Kaines,
• 2:18:22
  Speaker 1: Friedrich Kayak, Milton Friedman, John Locke. Good luck. America has
• 2:18:25
  Speaker 1: developed its own economic ideology. Say it with me. Prosperity
• 2:18:30
  Speaker 1: by any means necessary, preferably with freedom, preferably with a
• 2:18:35
  Speaker 1: sense that we're still in control of our own lives.
• 2:18:38
  Speaker 1: And when those goals contradict each other, well, we've sent
• 2:18:42
  Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty years improvising the answer, now, haven't we.
• 2:18:46
  Speaker 1: There's your explanation of history today on how America has
• 2:18:51
  Speaker 1: always been kind of sort of flirting with socialism. Ask Chuck,
• 2:19:04
  Speaker 1: so a little last Chuck? All right? Mark d chimes in, Hey, Chuck,
• 2:19:09
  Speaker 1: first time, long time. I was listening today's podcast, and
• 2:19:11
  Speaker 1: your descriptions of Grand Rapids voters fit me almost perfectly.
• 2:19:14
  Speaker 1: I was raised a racon Republican and voted GOP for years,
• 2:19:18
  Speaker 1: but after supporting Trump in twenty sixteen, I became a
• 2:19:20
  Speaker 1: committed never Trumper, and I have since voted Democratic because
• 2:19:23
  Speaker 1: I see it as the best path to correcting the
• 2:19:26
  Speaker 1: direction of the Republican party. Does my political journey reflect
• 2:19:29
  Speaker 1: what you're seeing among college educated center right voters in
• 2:19:31
  Speaker 1: places like Grand Rapids And how significant do you think
• 2:19:35
  Speaker 1: that group could be in future elections? Thanks for all
• 2:19:37
  Speaker 1: the work you do, Mark d Well. Look you described
• 2:19:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, I jokingly say this is the bulwark if
• 2:19:42
  Speaker 1: you follow the work of Bill Crystal, Sarah Longwell, Tim Miller,
• 2:19:48
  Speaker 1: all of whom were Republicans in twenty sixteen. Still right,
• 2:19:52
  Speaker 1: like yourself. So, and I do think there's a bit
• 2:19:55
  Speaker 1: of a reformed smoker's mindset, which is, like, you know,
• 2:19:58
  Speaker 1: the most anti smoking peace people are the ones that
• 2:20:00
  Speaker 1: used to be chain smokers. But who got been quit
• 2:20:03
  Speaker 1: and then like become you know, almost more draconian about
• 2:20:10
  Speaker 1: their anti smoking vibes. Right. I think the thing is is,
• 2:20:14
  Speaker 1: I don't know yet. I have said there are two
• 2:20:18
  Speaker 1: states in particular I've always singled out as being and
• 2:20:21
  Speaker 1: I think Grand Rapids and you fit this, you fit
• 2:20:24
  Speaker 1: this well. Both Colorado and Virginia were considered reliably Republican
• 2:20:29
  Speaker 1: states in twenty oh four, and Barack Obama flipped them
• 2:20:32
  Speaker 1: in O eight and they literally went from purple to
• 2:20:35
  Speaker 1: blue and about it feels like a blink of an eye.
• 2:20:41
  Speaker 1: And I think they might have simply been Obama states.
• 2:20:44
  Speaker 1: And then twenty sixteen came around and they were super
• 2:20:46
  Speaker 1: allergic to Trump. And we've seen, right, you know, these
• 2:20:51
  Speaker 1: are places where the Republican Party particularly It's funny about
• 2:20:54
  Speaker 1: Virginia and Colorado is they both had significant evangelical Christian footholds,
• 2:21:02
  Speaker 1: you know, sort of factions Colorado Springs Lynsburg, Virginia, And
• 2:21:07
  Speaker 1: maybe that was the problem. To find the Republican Party
• 2:21:09
  Speaker 1: is too far to the right, and it chased a
• 2:21:10
  Speaker 1: bunch of people out of the party. The real test
• 2:21:15
  Speaker 1: will be if the Republican Party changes who they are,
• 2:21:18
  Speaker 1: they go back to sort of what you remember them as.
• 2:21:22
  Speaker 1: You know, Glenn Youngkin's election told me that there's it's
• 2:21:26
  Speaker 1: you know that it's dormant. It's not gone in Virginia.
• 2:21:30
  Speaker 1: There hasn't been a similar election yet in Colorado that
• 2:21:34
  Speaker 1: I would argue fully does that. I guess you could say,
• 2:21:37
  Speaker 1: you know, Corey Gardner's went in twenty fourteen, but that
• 2:21:39
  Speaker 1: was just before Trump. So that's why I don't quite
• 2:21:43
  Speaker 1: quite I'm not quite there yet on it, but I
• 2:21:48
  Speaker 1: sort of ultimately, I think there's a bunch of I mean, obviously,
• 2:21:57
  Speaker 1: I think there's a bunch of voters who are like, well,
• 2:22:01
  Speaker 1: we've got to change both these parties, and the only
• 2:22:03
  Speaker 1: way to change the Republican Party is to is to
• 2:22:08
  Speaker 1: strengthen the Democratic Party and change that party too. So
• 2:22:12
  Speaker 1: I don't know. I guess I would ask you, is
• 2:22:18
  Speaker 1: there is there a Republican Party you would trust in
• 2:22:22
  Speaker 1: the near future if it reimagined itself, or do you
• 2:22:26
  Speaker 1: think that Trump has soiled the brand for good? And
• 2:22:29
  Speaker 1: I and I I put it this way. One term
• 2:22:33
  Speaker 1: at Trump and I would have said, yeah, this is
• 2:22:35
  Speaker 1: going to bounce back two terms of Trump, and I
• 2:22:37
  Speaker 1: don't know it could very well be that that the
• 2:22:43
  Speaker 1: that this this the the never Trump Republicans that flipped
• 2:22:48
  Speaker 1: not only never go back, but are the foundation of
• 2:22:51
  Speaker 1: a new version of the Democratic Party that's just different.
• 2:22:55
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's a little bit more pro capitalism, but it
• 2:23:01
  Speaker 1: is also might be a bit more character based. I mean,
• 2:23:07
  Speaker 1: what strikes me is that I feel like the never
• 2:23:09
  Speaker 1: Trumpers are the character voters, and it turns out there's
• 2:23:13
  Speaker 1: fewer character voters than any of us thought there were.
• 2:23:18
  Speaker 1: But I don't know if we can know the answer
• 2:23:20
  Speaker 1: until Trump is out of the system. And that's a
• 2:23:23
  Speaker 1: question that I have, and I think the two states
• 2:23:25
  Speaker 1: that will test this, and then your community, Kent County
• 2:23:28
  Speaker 1: is another place. You know, you'll know the old Republican
• 2:23:33
  Speaker 1: Party pre Trump has its sea legs again. If you
• 2:23:36
  Speaker 1: start to see those types of Republicans have success in
• 2:23:41
  Speaker 1: your Virginia's, in your Colorado's and in your Grand Rapids.
• 2:23:47
  Speaker 1: Lauren g in La Rights, Hey, how do you think
• 2:23:50
  Speaker 1: I'll do? Alsayed should respond to the rise in Islamophobia
• 2:23:53
  Speaker 1: since his primary victory, similar to how President Obama gave
• 2:23:56
  Speaker 1: his landmark speech on race after facing racist attacks during
• 2:23:58
  Speaker 1: his campaign, expectation that else say ed should directly address
• 2:24:02
  Speaker 1: the prejudice he's facing, or is it better politically to
• 2:24:04
  Speaker 1: stay focused on the issues and not elevated. So you know,
• 2:24:10
  Speaker 1: I hate feeling depression about something I think I said
• 2:24:14
  Speaker 1: before the primary even happened. I said, if Abdul al
• 2:24:19
  Speaker 1: Siad wins, I don't think we fully can appreciate the
• 2:24:23
  Speaker 1: Islamophobia that's going to come. And wow, right, it has
• 2:24:26
  Speaker 1: come in a hurry, it has been out of it
• 2:24:28
  Speaker 1: has been I've heard elected officials say things I didn't
• 2:24:32
  Speaker 1: think i'd hear them say. Right when Nancy Macy essentially
• 2:24:35
  Speaker 1: indicted anybody who's Muslim in America? Right, which is just
• 2:24:40
  Speaker 1: by the way, I mean, it's just fundamentally the single
• 2:24:43
  Speaker 1: most un American thing you can be is to judge
• 2:24:45
  Speaker 1: somebody but based on their faith. Right, what was why
• 2:24:48
  Speaker 1: are we here? Why is there in America? It was
• 2:24:50
  Speaker 1: over this issue of religious freedom and liberty? Right, Like,
• 2:24:53
  Speaker 1: what was the fundamental reason why everybody these these folks
• 2:24:56
  Speaker 1: bolted the UK in the first place. So, I mean,
• 2:24:59
  Speaker 1: you can't come up with a more hypocritical stance than
• 2:25:03
  Speaker 1: somehow indicting an entire religious community. But I am worried
• 2:25:15
  Speaker 1: that this fear tactic has enough people that believe some
• 2:25:20
  Speaker 1: threat of it. This idea right, whether it's the real
• 2:25:24
  Speaker 1: law stuff, which I kind of think is nonsense, but
• 2:25:26
  Speaker 1: some people buy by it. Or you know that this
• 2:25:32
  Speaker 1: idea that if you're if you believe in a certain
• 2:25:36
  Speaker 1: in certain religious belief, you can't also be an American.
• 2:25:43
  Speaker 1: You know, we we sort of, you know. My feeling
• 2:25:47
  Speaker 1: is every every faith has its moderates, and every faith
• 2:25:51
  Speaker 1: has its fundamentalists, and pretty much, look, I'm a I'm
• 2:25:55
  Speaker 1: a I'm a religious skeptic because the fundamentalism of religion
• 2:25:59
  Speaker 1: to me is very undemocratic and very anti freedom. And
• 2:26:03
  Speaker 1: usually the most fundamentalists of any faith are the ones
• 2:26:07
  Speaker 1: that make me cringe the most. I have no beef
• 2:26:12
  Speaker 1: with people who are believers, that's not the issue. But
• 2:26:17
  Speaker 1: you know, when your faith is about helping you live
• 2:26:21
  Speaker 1: an ethical and moral life, more power to you. When
• 2:26:25
  Speaker 1: your faith is being used to decide who doesn't belong here,
• 2:26:30
  Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like a religion. It feels like a
• 2:26:35
  Speaker 1: some sort of feels like a threat to be honest,
• 2:26:39
  Speaker 1: threat to a way of life. So I worry it's
• 2:26:47
  Speaker 1: deeper than we think. And I wonder if abdul Elsa
• 2:26:51
  Speaker 1: needs to do. Needs to sort of think that Kennedy
• 2:26:54
  Speaker 1: had to do his Catholic speech and Obama had to
• 2:27:00
  Speaker 1: do that race speech. When you're seeking to be the first,
• 2:27:05
  Speaker 1: sometimes you have to allay conspiracy, conspiratorial beliefs that are
• 2:27:11
  Speaker 1: out there, for better or for worse. Now, I'll do
• 2:27:17
  Speaker 1: All'll say, I understands the attention economy as well as
• 2:27:19
  Speaker 1: any candidate that I've seen in the twenty twenty six
• 2:27:22
  Speaker 1: cycle period. Right, he's really under he gets it right.
• 2:27:26
  Speaker 1: He's sort of online all the time and realizes if
• 2:27:29
  Speaker 1: they're talking about you, that's probably a not positive, not
• 2:27:31
  Speaker 1: a net negative. He very much is Trump asking in
• 2:27:33
  Speaker 1: his belief system like that. The political consultant advice would be,
• 2:27:39
  Speaker 1: don't you know the focus on your faith is a distraction.
• 2:27:45
  Speaker 1: They want you this is they want you talking about it.
• 2:27:49
  Speaker 1: They want this to be the issue they want every
• 2:27:51
  Speaker 1: time they want. They want swing voters to see nine
• 2:27:58
  Speaker 1: to eleven every time they see you. And if you
• 2:28:02
  Speaker 1: were not a well known figure, I'd be like, don't
• 2:28:04
  Speaker 1: you don't need to talk about your faith. This isn't
• 2:28:06
  Speaker 1: going to be a big part of the voting conversation.
• 2:28:10
  Speaker 1: But he's going to he's already a national figure, he's
• 2:28:13
  Speaker 1: already pretty high profile, and there's this feels like one
• 2:28:18
  Speaker 1: of those things you got to sort of deal with
• 2:28:20
  Speaker 1: head on, and it would certainly grab a moment. It
• 2:28:24
  Speaker 1: would make Democrats nuts if you did it right. Because
• 2:28:28
  Speaker 1: of that, the consultant, the midterm consultant says, you know,
• 2:28:31
  Speaker 1: it's sort of I always think of this of the
• 2:28:34
  Speaker 1: guy that just in Star Wars, that just is telling
• 2:28:37
  Speaker 1: all these tie fighter planes stay on target, stay on target,
• 2:28:40
  Speaker 1: you know, don't devate, you know, don't look anywhere else,
• 2:28:43
  Speaker 1: stay on target. You know. So the people, you know,
• 2:28:47
  Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer would be say, just talk about lowering prices,
• 2:28:49
  Speaker 1: just talk about economic anxiety. Stay on target, stay on target.
• 2:28:53
  Speaker 1: And yet it's pretty clear this is going to be
• 2:28:58
  Speaker 1: a very open and brave an Islamophobia a rich campaign.
• 2:29:03
  Speaker 1: And I don't say that and as a positive, it's
• 2:29:06
  Speaker 1: it's it's pretty brutal, it's pretty ugly, and it's frankly,
• 2:29:13
  Speaker 1: it's just as a person who loves this country just
• 2:29:16
  Speaker 1: I hate it. I hate every part of this type
• 2:29:18
  Speaker 1: of campaigning. I think it just makes us look even worse.
• 2:29:22
  Speaker 1: So I think it sends a terrible message to the world.
• 2:29:25
  Speaker 1: The country that is supposed to be open to all
• 2:29:28
  Speaker 1: is got one political party wanting a religious test. I
• 2:29:33
  Speaker 1: mean this, like I said, fun you want to talk
• 2:29:36
  Speaker 1: about just not a I mean Nancy Mace's comments about
• 2:29:39
  Speaker 1: about her feelings on Islam. I mean literally, and you've
• 2:29:43
  Speaker 1: you've taken the oath to protect and follow and abide
• 2:29:52
  Speaker 1: by the Constitution. Did you even read it? Do you understand?
• 2:29:55
  Speaker 1: I mean when you when you ask yourself, do we
• 2:29:57
  Speaker 1: have a civics problem in this country? Right here and there?
• 2:30:00
  Speaker 1: Right here? Anybody espousing this bizarre belief that your religious
• 2:30:05
  Speaker 1: belief is an American doesn't understand the story of America
• 2:30:10
  Speaker 1: or its founding. So I think of all people who
• 2:30:19
  Speaker 1: could walk in chew gum at the same time on
• 2:30:22
  Speaker 1: something like this, and I think, because it is, that
• 2:30:28
  Speaker 1: might be the difference between winning and losing. I think
• 2:30:31
  Speaker 1: he has to take this head on and talk about
• 2:30:34
  Speaker 1: his faith, explain his faith a little bit to people.
• 2:30:40
  Speaker 1: You know, he's got a platform because you kind of
• 2:30:45
  Speaker 1: want to draw a line in the sand. And I
• 2:30:49
  Speaker 1: think he could weave the story of America back in
• 2:30:55
  Speaker 1: seventeen seventy six and seventeen eighty nine and his role
• 2:30:59
  Speaker 1: and play in it. So it's an I think it's
• 2:31:04
  Speaker 1: an opportunity, and I think at this point it may
• 2:31:09
  Speaker 1: it may be necessary if he wants to win, because
• 2:31:14
  Speaker 1: it's going to be pretty blatant, it's going to be
• 2:31:17
  Speaker 1: pretty ugly, and you know, and I guess I would
• 2:31:20
  Speaker 1: look at it. I think he should do it because
• 2:31:22
  Speaker 1: he owes it to the next generation of Muslim Americans
• 2:31:29
  Speaker 1: who choose to serve in elected life. All right, Patrick
• 2:31:34
  Speaker 1: chimes in here from the city of Peace, the heck
• 2:31:37
  Speaker 1: by way of Marlborough, Connecticut, the hometown of my buddy
• 2:31:40
  Speaker 1: Chris Saliza's he knows, all right. I think my best
• 2:31:42
  Speaker 1: friend in high school actually played basketball with him as
• 2:31:45
  Speaker 1: a kid. So there you have it, Solisa, here's hopefully
• 2:31:48
  Speaker 1: my second swing at the five timers Club. Do you
• 2:31:50
  Speaker 1: candidates on the same ballot create measurable coat tails from
• 2:31:52
  Speaker 1: one another? For example, could have duel else iaid help
• 2:31:55
  Speaker 1: boost another progressive down ballot candidate or could a more
• 2:31:58
  Speaker 1: moderate cubernatorial nominee lift a a candidate? And do independent
• 2:32:01
  Speaker 1: candidates have any meaningful effect on congressional races when there's
• 2:32:05
  Speaker 1: no major Party nominee at the top of the ticket.
• 2:32:07
  Speaker 1: Thanks for all the great insights and content, Patrick. So
• 2:32:10
  Speaker 1: let me tell you the theory of the case that
• 2:32:12
  Speaker 1: Andrew Yang, who's one of the co founders of the
• 2:32:15
  Speaker 1: Forward Party, has, which is, you know, he thinks the
• 2:32:19
  Speaker 1: best way to help normy politicians who are running statewide,
• 2:32:22
  Speaker 1: whether they're normy Dems or Norman Republicans or independents is
• 2:32:27
  Speaker 1: to get more, you know, is to contest more elections
• 2:32:30
  Speaker 1: down the ballot. And he thinks that there can have
• 2:32:33
  Speaker 1: it can have an upside effect that you if you
• 2:32:35
  Speaker 1: have more small party candidates, more independent candidates, sort of
• 2:32:40
  Speaker 1: campaigning for your sort of type of politics on a
• 2:32:44
  Speaker 1: super grassroots level in a super small part of of
• 2:32:58
  Speaker 1: you know, in a super small part of your state
• 2:33:03
  Speaker 1: or your community, that that can have a trickle up
• 2:33:06
  Speaker 1: effect per se. So but I think it can. It
• 2:33:11
  Speaker 1: can It can work in state I don't think it
• 2:33:13
  Speaker 1: works across state lines. Here's how gov and Senate candidates
• 2:33:21
  Speaker 1: can help each other. It's more about funding coordinated campaigns.
• 2:33:25
  Speaker 1: It's about being able to combine efforts, you know, instead
• 2:33:30
  Speaker 1: of having both the gubernatorial candidate and the Senate candidate
• 2:33:32
  Speaker 1: knock on the doors of swing voters. You know, in
• 2:33:35
  Speaker 1: a case like Jocelyn Benson and I'll do al I Ed,
• 2:33:37
  Speaker 1: they probably have some similar voters. And John James and
• 2:33:41
  Speaker 1: Mike Rodgers are very similar Republicans. So in that sense,
• 2:33:44
  Speaker 1: I think the two of them could help each other,
• 2:33:47
  Speaker 1: you know, and could not do AlSi ED help Benson
• 2:33:49
  Speaker 1: and a dearborn I think so could Joscelyn Benson help
• 2:33:53
  Speaker 1: him in the black community. You know, that's going to
• 2:33:56
  Speaker 1: be something that I you know, so yes, I guess
• 2:33:59
  Speaker 1: I could see it a little bit, but I just
• 2:34:10
  Speaker 1: you know, I I it is ultimately top of the ticket.
• 2:34:16
  Speaker 1: Is the is having nine times out of ten has
• 2:34:20
  Speaker 1: the biggest impact on turnout. But you know, we've seen
• 2:34:25
  Speaker 1: Trump voters are shotgun voters, right, They're shock I call
• 2:34:27
  Speaker 1: them shotgun Trump voters. They come in, they vote Trump
• 2:34:29
  Speaker 1: and they leave, right. And there is a chunk of
• 2:34:33
  Speaker 1: voters that do that. And sometimes a movement vote candidate
• 2:34:37
  Speaker 1: like I'll do LSA ED will have you know, just
• 2:34:41
  Speaker 1: l s ED voters or bust right, they'll be shotgun
• 2:34:44
  Speaker 1: ls ED voters that come in, they vote for him
• 2:34:45
  Speaker 1: and they leave. That is, you know, especially with CULTI
• 2:34:51
  Speaker 1: personality candidates that's more likely, and so the cult of
• 2:34:54
  Speaker 1: personality candidates have less impact on that. I am intrigued
• 2:34:58
  Speaker 1: by the trickle up strategy, but I don't know if
• 2:35:00
  Speaker 1: we've had enough examples yet to see, right, But I
• 2:35:05
  Speaker 1: do know that in years that that that the out
• 2:35:11
  Speaker 1: party does better in a midterm, it usually is because
• 2:35:14
  Speaker 1: they've found more candidates down the ballot, and they just
• 2:35:17
  Speaker 1: just having more people running in your party label down
• 2:35:22
  Speaker 1: the ballot has I think they trickle up effect on
• 2:35:26
  Speaker 1: turnout right that all over time accumulates, but it probably
• 2:35:30
  Speaker 1: it's one of those things that is more it eventually
• 2:35:33
  Speaker 1: helps down the ballot, but it is about almost helping
• 2:35:37
  Speaker 1: get your numerator number up the most right your turnout numbers.
• 2:35:42
  Speaker 1: So the more people you have advocating for people to
• 2:35:45
  Speaker 1: come out and vote for your side of the aisle,
• 2:35:47
  Speaker 1: the better. So filling out the ballot actually is probably
• 2:35:51
  Speaker 1: the most important thing you can do, making sure you
• 2:35:53
  Speaker 1: have a candidate, and is every single race that's on
• 2:35:56
  Speaker 1: the ballot in your state in your party that matter. Know,
• 2:36:00
  Speaker 1: that's the hardest part for these third party movements, right,
• 2:36:03
  Speaker 1: because the more of that they have, the better shot
• 2:36:05
  Speaker 1: that they have I think all right? Next question, this
• 2:36:15
  Speaker 1: is an interesting sort of a play on the Grand
• 2:36:18
  Speaker 1: Rapids question, but from another perspective. Here, Tory asked, I'm
• 2:36:21
  Speaker 1: listening to your Thursday podcast and was intrigued by your
• 2:36:23
  Speaker 1: point that recovering Republicans and Grand Rapids have become resistance Democrats.
• 2:36:27
  Speaker 1: Since I'll do else, I had ever performed it there
• 2:36:29
  Speaker 1: so significantly. Is there any chance Republicans crossed over to
• 2:36:32
  Speaker 1: vote for him because they thought he'd be an easier
• 2:36:34
  Speaker 1: general election opponent for Mike Rodgers or do you think
• 2:36:36
  Speaker 1: the results reflect a genuine shift among voters. Curious what
• 2:36:39
  Speaker 1: you think? Thank you and loved the show. So I've
• 2:36:42
  Speaker 1: heard this theory. I've tested it with my friend Dante
• 2:36:45
  Speaker 1: Chini works when Michigan State University knows Michigan literally like
• 2:36:49
  Speaker 1: the back of his hand, whichever part you want to
• 2:36:51
  Speaker 1: use to describe Michigan. Sorry, my dad joke there never
• 2:36:55
  Speaker 1: gets old, and he will tell you that if you look,
• 2:37:01
  Speaker 1: I mean, this is why I did that whole trend line. Right,
• 2:37:03
  Speaker 1: We've been watching this build. Right. Abdul al Sayed wasn't
• 2:37:07
  Speaker 1: on the ballot, and over one hundred thousand people voted
• 2:37:10
  Speaker 1: on the democratic side of the aisle in twenty twenty, right,
• 2:37:13
  Speaker 1: So I think you just see a fundamental shift taking
• 2:37:17
  Speaker 1: place heartstop and that's a big deal over there. Look
• 2:37:23
  Speaker 1: the crossover stuff, you know, I remember Rush Limbaugh called
• 2:37:28
  Speaker 1: it Operation Chaos, right. He wanted people to go vote
• 2:37:30
  Speaker 1: for Hillary to sort of slow Obama's momentum down back
• 2:37:33
  Speaker 1: during the eight primaries. And you know, I will tell you,
• 2:37:40
  Speaker 1: I know people in Northern Virginia that all voted for
• 2:37:43
  Speaker 1: Marco Rubio who weren't going to vote for Marco Rubio
• 2:37:46
  Speaker 1: in the fall, but it was all about stop Trump.
• 2:37:49
  Speaker 1: But they genuinely wanted Rubio to win. And had Rubio won,
• 2:37:53
  Speaker 1: I don't know some of those voters I think would
• 2:37:54
  Speaker 1: have voted for me. So I think one of the
• 2:37:57
  Speaker 1: biggest misconsumptions is the idea I don't The number of
• 2:38:01
  Speaker 1: quote unquote strategic voters I think is less than five percent.
• 2:38:07
  Speaker 1: I really do. I'm a strategic voter. But you might say,
• 2:38:13
  Speaker 1: I know, as missus Toodcast likes to say, well, you
• 2:38:15
  Speaker 1: know too much. But I think when it comes to
• 2:38:20
  Speaker 1: the power of crowds, we know strategy. If you're going
• 2:38:25
  Speaker 1: to try to do that, you just it isn't going
• 2:38:28
  Speaker 1: to work. And if you notice, anytime there's consolidation, usually
• 2:38:33
  Speaker 1: it rarely works unless the threat on the other side
• 2:38:37
  Speaker 1: is seen as so existential, which is why the arguably
• 2:38:40
  Speaker 1: the Biden rally around effect did work at the very
• 2:38:46
  Speaker 1: end with Democrats in twenty twenty because they, oh, he
• 2:38:51
  Speaker 1: can win, Fine, we'll do that. But a lot of
• 2:38:55
  Speaker 1: the times, whatever strategy you think you're orchestrating, most people
• 2:39:02
  Speaker 1: don't vote that way. I mean, it's hard enough to
• 2:39:04
  Speaker 1: get people to remember when the primary is, let alone
• 2:39:06
  Speaker 1: be strategic about their vote. Next question comes from Mark
• 2:39:15
  Speaker 1: h Texas three. He's hoping he believes this puts him
• 2:39:19
  Speaker 1: in the five timers club. He goes, Hey, the Curtis
• 2:39:21
  Speaker 1: meat era didn't start the way that way my White
• 2:39:25
  Speaker 1: Sox and I had hoped for. But that's baseball start.
• 2:39:29
  Speaker 1: Curtis mead, we got from the White Sox to the Nationals.
• 2:39:31
  Speaker 1: Now he's on the IL with the Red Sox, which
• 2:39:34
  Speaker 1: I really feel bad about. But anyway, but that's not
• 2:39:36
  Speaker 1: his question. His question is about Jennin Piro's decision to
• 2:39:40
  Speaker 1: dismiss the reflecting pool of vandamis in case. Do you
• 2:39:42
  Speaker 1: think she acted on her own, or was this coordinator
• 2:39:44
  Speaker 1: with Trump to give him an off ramp from what
• 2:39:46
  Speaker 1: had become a politically difficult prosecution. You always say to
• 2:39:50
  Speaker 1: watch actions, not words. And despite Trump's public criticism, she
• 2:39:53
  Speaker 1: still got her job. Huh, well that's some Uh Do
• 2:39:59
  Speaker 1: you really think he's in that kind of three dimensional chess?
• 2:40:02
  Speaker 1: You know, as the joke goes, not only is he
• 2:40:04
  Speaker 1: not playing chess, not only is he not playing checkers,
• 2:40:07
  Speaker 1: he just eats the checkers, right, And that's kind of
• 2:40:11
  Speaker 1: where I am with Trump. No, No, this is he's
• 2:40:16
  Speaker 1: trying to decide whether he needs to send a message
• 2:40:18
  Speaker 1: to everybody else in his administration through puro. I think
• 2:40:24
  Speaker 1: here's the thing about Trump. If this were that, he'd
• 2:40:27
  Speaker 1: eventually let you know that that was I didn't really
• 2:40:29
  Speaker 1: want to get rid of her. I just I just
• 2:40:31
  Speaker 1: was trying to get rid of the issue. Like, if
• 2:40:32
  Speaker 1: that were the case, He'll eventually tell us this. I Mean.
• 2:40:35
  Speaker 1: The weirdest thing about Trump is as dishonest as he is,
• 2:40:38
  Speaker 1: how often he tells us the truth, Like he really
• 2:40:41
  Speaker 1: will let us know what he's really thinking, right, Like
• 2:40:45
  Speaker 1: lookquid he like popped off on Lisa Murkowski so mad
• 2:40:47
  Speaker 1: about the Todd blanche thing, you know, because he had
• 2:40:51
  Speaker 1: to make sure that everybody knows whoever votes against him,
• 2:40:54
  Speaker 1: he's going to come out and rail against them and
• 2:40:56
  Speaker 1: make their life as miserable as he possibly can if
• 2:40:59
  Speaker 1: he wants to keep the illusion of strength up with
• 2:41:01
  Speaker 1: the rest of the Republican Party. By the way, is
• 2:41:04
  Speaker 1: a quick aside on that one. Every time he attacks
• 2:41:06
  Speaker 1: Ley Sa Murkowski, the Democratic number to win Senate seats
• 2:41:10
  Speaker 1: starts to go down from four to three. I really
• 2:41:13
  Speaker 1: believe she's more likely to be the senator that decides
• 2:41:18
  Speaker 1: Senate control. And if she is Donald, you'll only have
• 2:41:26
  Speaker 1: all these Donald Trump attack tweaks to blame John Thune,
• 2:41:30
  Speaker 1: by the way, which I'm sure Don Thue knows, and
• 2:41:33
  Speaker 1: he's getting there, so no, I am. I know with
• 2:41:38
  Speaker 1: Trump anything as possible. But man, if this were true,
• 2:41:41
  Speaker 1: he'll eventually tell us. And I don't think this one
• 2:41:43
  Speaker 1: is true. Again, he's eating the checkers. He's not playing
• 2:41:47
  Speaker 1: three dimensional chess. M all right. Chris em and Albany writes, Hey,
• 2:41:52
  Speaker 1: I've been an enthusiastic fan since State one a MTP. Well,
• 2:41:55
  Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for presenting politics for the rest
• 2:41:58
  Speaker 1: of us all these years. My question is this, how
• 2:42:00
  Speaker 1: does the average guy like me work to make meaningful
• 2:42:03
  Speaker 1: change in a government that gets more corrupt by the day.
• 2:42:05
  Speaker 1: I listen to you every day during my morning run,
• 2:42:07
  Speaker 1: and I find myself feeling helpless while this unethical inemoral
• 2:42:11
  Speaker 1: bs continues in the executive and legislative branches and the
• 2:42:14
  Speaker 1: judicial two of our government. What can I do? Thanks Gonettes, Well, Chris,
• 2:42:20
  Speaker 1: you're you're channeling how I feel. Some nice I will
• 2:42:24
  Speaker 1: confess I feel powerless. I feel helpless. I am like
• 2:42:28
  Speaker 1: through this, I can't believe, you know, I feel like
• 2:42:31
  Speaker 1: John Love. It's his character when he played Michael Degatcaus.
• 2:42:34
  Speaker 1: I can't believe I'm losing to this guy, right I
• 2:42:36
  Speaker 1: I can't believe we're doing this crazy shit, you know,
• 2:42:41
  Speaker 1: like of course he hired of course some Texas oil
• 2:42:44
  Speaker 1: companies hiring doctor Phil to be their documentarian while they
• 2:42:49
  Speaker 1: kind of do squatters rights on Greenland with Donald Trump's okay, right?
• 2:42:53
  Speaker 1: Like if I painted to you that scenario that this
• 2:42:56
  Speaker 1: is what was going to happen if Donald Trump was president,
• 2:42:58
  Speaker 1: I'd have been called the crazy person. And yet this
• 2:43:00
  Speaker 1: is now reality of where we live. So I know
• 2:43:02
  Speaker 1: exactly how you're feeling. All I will say is all
• 2:43:06
  Speaker 1: we can do is we have to just keep trying
• 2:43:11
  Speaker 1: keep you know, I'm I am. All I can say
• 2:43:17
  Speaker 1: is keep hope alive. You know. Let's let's channel Jesse
• 2:43:22
  Speaker 1: Jackson and Winston Churchill. He Jesse always told us to
• 2:43:26
  Speaker 1: keep hope alive, and Winston Churchill said Americans would always
• 2:43:28
  Speaker 1: do the right thing after they've exhausted every other path.
• 2:43:32
  Speaker 1: That's another way of saying, keep hope alive. Right, Look,
• 2:43:37
  Speaker 1: you could run for office. I think, you know, we
• 2:43:41
  Speaker 1: need to have I think right now, the leaders of
• 2:43:45
  Speaker 1: both parties are are are Sometimes I wonder that they're
• 2:43:49
  Speaker 1: that the being crazy is a feature so that the
• 2:43:52
  Speaker 1: normal us, normal people will never get involved. We'll think,
• 2:43:54
  Speaker 1: Jesus chrime and I'm not going to join that club.
• 2:43:57
  Speaker 1: That's just nuts. And it allows them to keep hour,
• 2:44:00
  Speaker 1: you know, because they're king of the crazies. Get involved.
• 2:44:07
  Speaker 1: Channel you're in inner Samuel L. Jackson and say enough
• 2:44:10
  Speaker 1: is enough. I want these monkey fighting snakes off this
• 2:44:13
  Speaker 1: monkey fighting plane. Run volunteer. I happen to believe the
• 2:44:25
  Speaker 1: third parties that's where I would be channeling my energy
• 2:44:29
  Speaker 1: is to help because I think both parties need to
• 2:44:33
  Speaker 1: be fixed, and the only way to fix it is
• 2:44:35
  Speaker 1: through outside influence. And I don't mean my money. I
• 2:44:39
  Speaker 1: mean by an outside voting voting force, like an independent candidacy,
• 2:44:44
  Speaker 1: an independent movement that maybe displaces one of the parties
• 2:44:48
  Speaker 1: and becomes a major party, or maybe it sobers up
• 2:44:51
  Speaker 1: both parties. But we do need to move from pounding
• 2:44:56
  Speaker 1: our fist against drywall and poking a hole in it
• 2:44:59
  Speaker 1: and then having to rip hear that and realizing we
• 2:45:01
  Speaker 1: haven't accomplished anything and actually trying to do something about it. Right. So,
• 2:45:07
  Speaker 1: I know it sounds a little pollyannish, but that's the
• 2:45:10
  Speaker 1: I mean. You know, our history shows that eventually, when
• 2:45:14
  Speaker 1: enough people say enough is enough, real change does happen.
• 2:45:18
  Speaker 1: Keep hope a lot. Speaking of keeping hope alive, a
• 2:45:22
  Speaker 1: three game sweep of the Cincinnati Reds keeps my hope alive. See,
• 2:45:26
  Speaker 1: this is the beauty of channeling some of my rage
• 2:45:29
  Speaker 1: through through my baseball fandom, because it's a lot more
• 2:45:34
  Speaker 1: fun to live artificial highs and lows through sports than
• 2:45:39
  Speaker 1: it is through the shit show that has been American
• 2:45:42
  Speaker 1: politics since that man descended down that escalator. Anyway, with that,
• 2:45:48
  Speaker 1: I will We'll have a busy week another live stream
• 2:45:51
  Speaker 1: that Wisconsin primary. DDHQ, our Decision Made production team is
• 2:45:57
  Speaker 1: going to be right around the corner. You will see
• 2:45:59
  Speaker 1: us on Tuesday live stream. Wherever you get live streams,
• 2:46:02
  Speaker 1: we will be there. Please tune in exclusive coverage of
• 2:46:05
  Speaker 1: that Wisconsin primary. We're finding out, right, Francesca hang, do
• 2:46:12
  Speaker 1: voters really want this or are they just channeling frustration
• 2:46:17
  Speaker 1: through her? Right? That's one of the questions we hope
• 2:46:20
  Speaker 1: to see answered, and we're going to find out. Was
• 2:46:23
  Speaker 1: there a bit of a media blits, a bit of
• 2:46:25
  Speaker 1: a mistake over the last couple of weeks. Should she
• 2:46:27
  Speaker 1: have either not done it at all or waited until
• 2:46:29
  Speaker 1: after the primary? So we will have that. Of course,
• 2:46:33
  Speaker 1: there's now my new show on Tuesday, Super Tuesday, and
• 2:46:36
  Speaker 1: we've got a new Dynastic coming up. I'm very excited.
• 2:46:40
  Speaker 1: None other than mister Paul Finebaum is going to be
• 2:46:43
  Speaker 1: our expert guest to talk all things Alabama football later
• 2:46:46
  Speaker 1: this month. So it is going to be a fun
• 2:46:49
  Speaker 1: month of content that I'll have for you, and it's
• 2:46:52
  Speaker 1: going to be a busy as you know what week,
• 2:46:54
  Speaker 1: So I will see you along the way. Thanks for
• 2:46:57
  Speaker 1: tuning in. Thanks for liking it and subscribing it until
• 2:47:00
  Speaker 1: we upload again MHM.