Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / RAGING HUSBAND GETS OUT OF JAIL, in just hours MURDERS PREGNANT WIFE

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RAGING HUSBAND GETS OUT OF JAIL, in just hours MURDERS PREGNANT WIFE · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A young mom to be
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Speaker 1: is dead. Why was her killer released from jail and
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Speaker 1: within hours killed her? Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A
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Speaker 1: week ago today, Alex Wahardo allegedly punched his wife in
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Speaker 1: the face, then days later she found their cat dead.
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Speaker 1: He was charged. The DA's office asked for a high bond,
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Speaker 1: but instead the judge let him out on what's called
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Speaker 1: a PR bond. Basically, you don't have to post any
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Speaker 1: money to get out of jail, just your word that
1:00
Speaker 1: you'll appear later. With that, he was out PR personal
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Speaker 1: recognisance in other words, kind of like the honor system. Again.
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Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories and thank you
1:13
Speaker 1: for being with us here at Fox Nations Series one
1:16
Speaker 1: eleven with me an all star panel to break it
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Speaker 1: down and put it back together again. Joseph Scott Morgan,
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Speaker 1: Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University, author of Blood Beneath My
1:25
Speaker 1: Feet on Amazon and the star of Poisonous Liaisons on
1:30
Speaker 1: True Crime Network. Josh Bruger, Pasadena, Texas Chief of Police,
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Speaker 1: a special guest. Karen Start, renowned psychologists joining out of Asada,
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Speaker 1: Manhattan at Karen starton Dot com Brian Massola, the lawyer
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Speaker 1: for this gorgeous young mom to be mom fighting for justice.
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Speaker 1: You can find him at Mossola Lawfirm dot com and
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Speaker 1: special guests. In addition to the chief of Police, Melanie
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Speaker 1: in Finger, the mother of Caitlin. She is now a
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Speaker 1: victim's rights advocate and you can find her at Caitlin's
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Speaker 1: Law dot org. First of all, to Brandy Keioncini, owner
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Speaker 1: of The Katie Times, Brandy, I don't understand how someone
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Speaker 1: is put in jail for a violent offense. They get
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Speaker 1: bonded out by some who is this judge? Anyway, that
2:32
Speaker 1: judge needs to be off the bench he or she
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Speaker 1: and then the guy comes and murders this mom to be.
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Speaker 1: First of all, what judge did that push for Bell
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Speaker 1: reform across the country and in Harris County a couple
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Speaker 1: of years ago, there was a ruling that said that
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Speaker 1: the Harris County Bell process was unfair to those people
3:00
Speaker 1: who were poor because if they couldn't make the bail,
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Speaker 1: then they were stuck in jail if they if they
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Speaker 1: were indigent, had had no money. So there was a
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Speaker 1: lot of Bell reform and this was part of that
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Speaker 1: Bell reform I guess I'll Q and A with myself.
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Speaker 1: It's judge Callen. Yes, But I think what you're trying
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Speaker 1: to tell me, Brandy KEI on Senian with a lot
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Speaker 1: of words, is that the judge was bound by the
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Speaker 1: new Bell Reform. Is that what you're getting out is
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Speaker 1: that what you're saying, Let me understand this. You can
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Speaker 1: commit a violent crime and walk free. What is exactly
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Speaker 1: the Bell Reform? You can beat somebody smitherings and you
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Speaker 1: don't have to post a bill. Well, the intense for
3:46
Speaker 1: the Bell Reform was that if it was a non
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Speaker 1: violent crimer, if it was a minor offense, they could
3:51
Speaker 1: get out on a personal recognisance fund, which means you
3:55
Speaker 1: put up no matter. I just explained that if you
3:57
Speaker 1: would just focus on the question, I would appreciate it
4:00
Speaker 1: because I really want to get to the chief of
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Speaker 1: police and to this victim of mother. You know, let
4:05
Speaker 1: me go to the chief right now. Josh Bruger is
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Speaker 1: with us, the chief of police in Pasadena, Texas. Chief,
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Speaker 1: I mean, this girl is dead, the unborn baby dead
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Speaker 1: because of Bell Reform? Or was it explain to me
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Speaker 1: the Bell Reform there in Pasadena? Did this judge have
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Speaker 1: to let the guy out. Excuse me, chief, Chief Chief.
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Speaker 1: I very rarely get to interrupt the chief of police.
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Speaker 1: But hold on, Brandy keion Cini. I asked you what
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Speaker 1: judge did this, and you launch into something about Bell reform.
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Speaker 1: Now I'm finding out the judge didn't have to do this,
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Speaker 1: So I gotta figure out what the hey is happening
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Speaker 1: and why Judge Callen is still on. Why is it
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Speaker 1: that you're telling me, Chief Bruger that the judge did
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Speaker 1: not have to let him out. So as part of
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Speaker 1: the bill settlement, there were certain carve out offenses where
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Speaker 1: the pr bunds are mandated. Assault on a family member
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Speaker 1: was not one of those. Okay, there you go. Why
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Speaker 1: did the judge r R release on your own recognizance? Why?
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Speaker 1: That's a fantastic question. I think that we're all wondering
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Speaker 1: that you look at somebody like Alex Ghardo a committing
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Speaker 1: committing and said earlier, you know, literally beat Melanie, a
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Speaker 1: beautiful daughter to a pull up on multiple occasions, and
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Speaker 1: every sign was there that the guy was going to
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Speaker 1: continue to commit crimes, and everybody just ignored all the sides.
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Speaker 1: It's absolutely inexcusable. Uh. You know, people that uh commit
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Speaker 1: these kind of credit to say we're going to come
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Speaker 1: back to Core on time based on our own word,
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Speaker 1: where the people word mean nothing, to have no honor um.
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Speaker 1: You know, it's supposed to be for violent offenders. Clearly
5:53
Speaker 1: what the guy was doing with violent You know, we
5:56
Speaker 1: were sold this whole story of bill reform being for
6:01
Speaker 1: people that were sitting in jail that couldn't pay a warrant.
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Speaker 1: Obviously it turned out to be anything but that. You know,
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Speaker 1: I want to go back to the Chief of Police,
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Speaker 1: Josh Bruger, the chief of Police is taking time to
6:16
Speaker 1: join us to try to explain what the hate happened
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Speaker 1: and why Caitlin is dead and it's not the police's fault. Look,
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Speaker 1: I know bad things have happened. There are some bad
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Speaker 1: apples within the police force, and they make everybody else
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Speaker 1: look terrible. I hate it when a prosecutor is unethical
6:34
Speaker 1: because it makes all prosecutors look nefarious and evil. But
6:39
Speaker 1: the police in this case did everything they could. This gay.
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Speaker 1: The cops put him in jail, They try to keep
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Speaker 1: him in jail, but oh no, Judge Callen, James Callen
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Speaker 1: had another plan. I mean, how demoralizing chief is it
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Speaker 1: for your men and women who go out they and
7:00
Speaker 1: you know, when you go out on a domestic call,
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Speaker 1: you're risking your life because that's the ways when you
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Speaker 1: get between a man and a woman or a boyfriend
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Speaker 1: girlfriend and they're having some volatile dispute, one of them,
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Speaker 1: usually the man will shoot the cop. Absolutely, but your
7:17
Speaker 1: cops go out there, they get him, they break it up,
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Speaker 1: they save her life, they put him in jail, and
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Speaker 1: then he gets out. It's bad. And that's the frustrating
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Speaker 1: part for the officers is they tried to do the
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Speaker 1: right thing. The A's officers tried to do the right
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Speaker 1: thing with a high bond in the system in this
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Speaker 1: case failed, Caitlin. And that's the hard part is how
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Speaker 1: do you continue to motivate police officer should go out
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Speaker 1: there and do the right thing when on the back
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Speaker 1: end the right thing isn't gonna happen, but when it
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Speaker 1: begins to affect public safety. Whoa who told you to
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Speaker 1: stay in your lane? Who said that, I've had judges
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Speaker 1: told me to stay in my lane? Was Calvin? One
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Speaker 1: of them? He was out one of them that I
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Speaker 1: know of. You know what, I can't believe a judge
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Speaker 1: you know everything I want to say right now I
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Speaker 1: can't say on air Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys,
8:25
Speaker 1: we are talking about the death of a gorgeous young lady,
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Speaker 1: a pregnant lady, a mom to be joining me right now?
8:37
Speaker 1: Is her mother? First? Take a listen to our friend
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Speaker 1: Marla Carter at kt r K ABC thirteen. Agent alarm
8:45
Speaker 1: has to do with mister Galhardo's pass. On May fifth,
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Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, mister Gualhardo was arrested by the Houston Police
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Speaker 1: Department for d WI in failures stopping give information at
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Speaker 1: a crash scene. Mister Garhardo was released on a pr
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Speaker 1: bond and at the time of the murder this past Saturday,
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Speaker 1: those are still active cases. On July thirty first, twenty nineteen,
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Speaker 1: passing a police anywhere mister Guihardo and his wife lived,
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Speaker 1: he killed. During the course of that investigation, it was
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Speaker 1: a termed that mister Guihardo had assaulted his wife, Caitlin,
9:13
Speaker 1: and he was arrested for Class A assault Family violence.
9:16
Speaker 1: Distric Attorney's office filed a motion for a high bond
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Speaker 1: of fifty thousand dollars as well as a protective order
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Speaker 1: preventing mister Guihardo from being near his wife. This FSGI.
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Speaker 1: Mister Guihardo was given a pr bond for the assault
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Speaker 1: and was released on August first, twenty nineteen, with no
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Speaker 1: bond conditions. It was just approximately eighteen hours later that
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Speaker 1: he went to the apartment and killed his wife an
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Speaker 1: unborn child. Guys, you were hearing, not the reporter Marla
9:43
Speaker 1: Carter at KTRK, but you were hearing his police chief.
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Speaker 1: And that is the fact scenario. Eighteen hours after he
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Speaker 1: gets out, thanks to Judge James Callen, he murders Caitlyn
10:00
Speaker 1: and now with me her mother Melanie in finger missing finger.
10:05
Speaker 1: Thank you for being with Is she there, miss same finger?
10:08
Speaker 1: Are you there? Thank you for being with us. Thank
10:11
Speaker 1: you so much. Tell me about the day that you
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Speaker 1: learned your daughter had been killed. I was actually working
10:23
Speaker 1: and and I was trying to get in contact with Caitlin,
10:28
Speaker 1: had called her numerous times. She had just picked up
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Speaker 1: her her baby at the time was eight months old, Alexis.
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Speaker 1: She was also pregnant that she was a mom also,
10:36
Speaker 1: and she had picked up Alexis from my house earlier
10:40
Speaker 1: that morning. And I was trying to call her and
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Speaker 1: text her, and I could not get in touch with
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Speaker 1: her and us as a mom of a child that
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Speaker 1: was in an abusive relationship, I mean, I mean, I'm
10:51
Speaker 1: sure many parents can relate. I lived at the pins
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Speaker 1: and needles. I was constantly worried, constantly anxious. So with
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Speaker 1: her not answering her phone and not texting me back,
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Speaker 1: I immediately knew something was wrong. I knew either they
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Speaker 1: were that he had gotten out. I thought I feared
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Speaker 1: he was going to get out. I didn't. I thought
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Speaker 1: someone was going to bail him out. So I feared
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Speaker 1: that he possibly got out and they got in a fight,
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Speaker 1: and he had taken her phone from her, because that's
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Speaker 1: what he always did, and so I kept texting or
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Speaker 1: calling her. Then an unknown number was calling me when
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Speaker 1: I was I was in my phone. My parents didn't panic,
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Speaker 1: and I said, someone's calling. I need to answer this
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Speaker 1: phone call, I said, because it could be hurt her
11:30
Speaker 1: neighbor's house on their phone. And that's what I told
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Speaker 1: my parents, like I just assumed she was on someone
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Speaker 1: else's phone. And when I answered the call, the person
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Speaker 1: on the other end actually was like ms miss in
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Speaker 1: finger and I'm like who is this? And they're like,
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Speaker 1: have you as no one called you about Caitlin, And
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Speaker 1: I'm like, just you just know as a mom, you
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Speaker 1: just going to complaint? Um, just I was just throught.
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Speaker 1: I mean I just knew. And I started screaming, and
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Speaker 1: I'm like, where it is is? She in the in the
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Speaker 1: sheave and said this isn't how we wanted to do this.
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Speaker 1: We're gonna have to call you back in five minutes,
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Speaker 1: And I said, what are you talking about? Like they
12:08
Speaker 1: wouldn't tell me anything. And I had to literally sit
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Speaker 1: them before and screen for five minutes and waiting them
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Speaker 1: to call me back to tell me that she was
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Speaker 1: stabbed to death and was pronounced that at the scene
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Speaker 1: at the medical center. And I didn't even know he
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Speaker 1: was out, Like I didn't even know he was out
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Speaker 1: of jail. Um, I didn't even know what pr buttons were.
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Speaker 1: I immediately went to blame, you know, I thought, you know,
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Speaker 1: maybe someone in his family had led him out. We
12:30
Speaker 1: had all agreed we didn't think anyone was going to
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Speaker 1: bail him out. So, um, I just was angry. I
12:35
Speaker 1: was I just couldn't believe how this could happen. And
12:37
Speaker 1: then I come, I come home and I hear the
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Speaker 1: news and I you know, I hear Brewer on the TV,
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Speaker 1: and I'm realizing, oh my god, he didn't just get
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Speaker 1: bailed out. He didn't get down out and he got
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Speaker 1: out for free. Like they what happened to my inssice system,
12:50
Speaker 1: Like what happened to putting people in jail for the
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Speaker 1: crime they commit? He was a violent offender. I mean,
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Speaker 1: it's just mind boggling. Angering It was so it was
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Speaker 1: just like I felt like she was a domestically abused
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Speaker 1: woman who actually did what we begged her to do.
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Speaker 1: For the year and a half she was with him.
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Speaker 1: We begged her, you know, to press charges. We begged
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Speaker 1: her to send it to her abuser, and she does
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Speaker 1: this to get m for them to slap him on
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Speaker 1: the wrist and let him out to murder her and
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Speaker 1: her unborn child. And it just was such a slap
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Speaker 1: in the face from all the abuse women out there,
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Speaker 1: and people wonder why these abuse them and don't go
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Speaker 1: to you know, I have their abusers arrested. I mean,
13:30
Speaker 1: because liquid happens, and they just they let him out
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Speaker 1: to murder her. It's just it's just it's mind boggling.
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Speaker 1: It's so angry, and I will live the rest of
13:38
Speaker 1: my life, I mean to you know, and just trying
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Speaker 1: to make a change. And I have a new mission
13:45
Speaker 1: to make sure that this does not this does not
13:47
Speaker 1: keep happening, and it's just it's very sad. Listen, finger,
13:50
Speaker 1: I'm a victim of violent crime and it changed my
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Speaker 1: life forever because of life fiance being murdered just before
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Speaker 1: our wedding many years ago. I couldn't. I mean, the
14:08
Speaker 1: impact lasts for your whole life. I could never consider
14:14
Speaker 1: trying again thirty years past, I still would not get married.
14:19
Speaker 1: I finally did it, and my daughter and I almost
14:23
Speaker 1: died in childbirth because I waited so long because of
14:28
Speaker 1: Keith's murder to try marriage again that my daughter almost died.
14:34
Speaker 1: My little girl is about seven years younger than yours.
14:40
Speaker 1: And when I hear you speak, all I can think
14:44
Speaker 1: about is my girl Lucy and my son John David,
14:48
Speaker 1: and the pain you are suffering, and the outrage because
14:55
Speaker 1: it's so easily could have been avoided. You said they
14:59
Speaker 1: let him out to go murder her. Guys, take a
15:03
Speaker 1: listen to Texas Police Chief Breuger describing what happened our
15:10
Speaker 1: Cut six on Saturday between four and four thirty pm passing,
15:15
Speaker 1: and police officers responded to an apartment at nineteen eleven
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Speaker 1: Saltamore in response to a nine to one one call.
15:22
Speaker 1: The nine one one caller told the dispatcher that he
15:25
Speaker 1: had killed his wife and needed help. Responding officers arrived
15:29
Speaker 1: contacted the male subject that had called nine on one,
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Speaker 1: who was identified as Alex Quahardo, deserted to have blood
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Speaker 1: on his pants. The defendant confessed to the initial officers
15:39
Speaker 1: that he had killed his wife and that she was
15:41
Speaker 1: in the apartment. Officers entered the apartment found the victim
15:45
Speaker 1: stabbed approximately twenty times across her body, several of those
15:51
Speaker 1: wounds to her abdomen. The victim was transported to the hospital,
15:55
Speaker 1: where several hours later she was pronounced deceased. The victim
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Speaker 1: was found to be approximately four months pregnant. The defendant
16:04
Speaker 1: confessed to stabbing and killing his wife, Caitlin Quahardo, over
16:08
Speaker 1: marital issues, and as it has been reported by the media,
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Speaker 1: he stated he did not want another man raising his
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Speaker 1: baby and that was the reason he stabbedished so many
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Speaker 1: times in the stomach. Two Chief of Police Josh Bruger
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Speaker 1: joining us out of Pasadena, Texas Chief with all of
16:27
Speaker 1: the stabs, many of them at her stomach. That tells
16:33
Speaker 1: me he was absolutely targeting not just her but the
16:38
Speaker 1: unborn baby. Absolutely, yes, terrible chief. I know that he admitted,
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Speaker 1: he confessed, he was covered in blood at the scene,
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Speaker 1: But what was his demeanor? Was he in his right mind?
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Speaker 1: Could he speak coherently? He gave a motive for the murder?
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Speaker 1: Did he not? He did? And he was coherent and
17:05
Speaker 1: he was able to explain to the officers what had happened,
17:09
Speaker 1: give them some details. He even, by all accounts, he was,
17:14
Speaker 1: you know, at his normal mental faculties about him. Time
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Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace Guys, a beautiful young girl, just
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Speaker 1: twenty is now dead, stabbed to death, pregnant because Judge
17:44
Speaker 1: Callan let her abuser out on an rore released on
17:51
Speaker 1: your own recognisance. One thing her mother keeps telling me,
17:56
Speaker 1: Melanie in Finger is that at first she thought who
17:59
Speaker 1: bonded him out? And don't they know better? But miss
18:02
Speaker 1: in Finger, how shocked were you to learn nobody bonded
18:06
Speaker 1: him out? The judge did it all on his own. Oh,
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Speaker 1: it just it was beyond me. I mean, I just
18:10
Speaker 1: couldn't believe it. I was hearing I mean I didn't
18:12
Speaker 1: even know that. I didn't know that was possible. I
18:14
Speaker 1: didn't know. I didn't I just thought, what word to justice?
18:17
Speaker 1: Like where what are these you know, like like Ruger
18:21
Speaker 1: I mean, and all these policemen they're out putting their
18:23
Speaker 1: lives on the line to arrest through criminals and for
18:26
Speaker 1: what you know, so they can go back out and
18:29
Speaker 1: murder people. It's just it's a maddening to Brandy key
18:32
Speaker 1: on Seni, owner of The Katie Times, joining us there
18:35
Speaker 1: from KAD Texas. Brandy keion Cini, where is the defendant now?
18:40
Speaker 1: I hope the state is seeking the death penalty, that
18:44
Speaker 1: he was charged with capital murder and as far as
18:47
Speaker 1: I know, he's still in jail waiting trial. And you know,
18:51
Speaker 1: another important issue to Joseph Scott Morgan, Professor Forensics, Jacksonall
18:55
Speaker 1: State University, now the star of Poisonous Liaisons on the
18:58
Speaker 1: True Crime Network, Joe Scott. Yes, as you heard the
19:04
Speaker 1: chiefs say, he spoke coherently, he admitted what he did.
19:08
Speaker 1: He even gave the motive for murder. But come trial time,
19:13
Speaker 1: since he's been caught red handed, he could easily back
19:18
Speaker 1: up with an insanity claim. But the fact that or
19:24
Speaker 1: accident or voluntary manslaughter. But twenty stab wounds. You have
19:29
Speaker 1: time in twenty stab wounds to form intent, which can
19:33
Speaker 1: be formed in the blink of an eye. And what
19:37
Speaker 1: other forensic evidence will the state bring forward to prove
19:42
Speaker 1: a murder case and it darned well be capital murder?
19:47
Speaker 1: What's the forensics Joe Scott. Yeah, well, let me tell
19:49
Speaker 1: you this. You go back in time, Nancy, to these
19:52
Speaker 1: times when she has been beaten before that data that
19:56
Speaker 1: they collected for treatment relative to the injury she had
20:00
Speaker 1: obviously sustained, are going to go to establish a pattern
20:03
Speaker 1: of physical abuse relative to this poor woman and this
20:06
Speaker 1: unborn child. And so you're going to marry that up
20:09
Speaker 1: with the blood obviously that we talked about that was
20:12
Speaker 1: on his body. You know, you can say all day
20:14
Speaker 1: long that you know he was crazy or that he
20:17
Speaker 1: was acting you know, abnormally. My favorite one is when
20:21
Speaker 1: they always say, well, I blacked out and I don't remember.
20:24
Speaker 1: You don't remember stabbing someone that you claim to care
20:28
Speaker 1: for and create a childhood, You don't remember stabbing them
20:32
Speaker 1: twenty times? Because you're right, this is not something that
20:36
Speaker 1: just kind of, you know, happens. You know, it's something
20:40
Speaker 1: he has something really interesting right there. Because back to you,
20:45
Speaker 1: Chief Bruger, if he had been acting abnormally, why would
20:49
Speaker 1: the judge have let him out if he showed any
20:51
Speaker 1: signs of mental illness. That's a great point. You would
20:55
Speaker 1: like to think they wouldn't. So when you have a
20:58
Speaker 1: bond hearing, the judge directs the defendant that he's got
21:02
Speaker 1: to follow certain conditions and so forth. The judge had
21:05
Speaker 1: a chance to look at this guy and question him
21:09
Speaker 1: before he let him out. I mean, back to you,
21:12
Speaker 1: Miss Infinger, mother of Caitlin. Now you can find out
21:16
Speaker 1: all about her at Caitlin's Law dot org. Miss Infinger.
21:21
Speaker 1: This guy and crazy, that is a load of bs.
21:24
Speaker 1: That's a technical legal term, but I predict it may
21:26
Speaker 1: rear its ugly edit trial. Yeah, he's definitely not crazy
21:30
Speaker 1: and like and as they were saying, I mean there
21:33
Speaker 1: is we have so much back in as far as
21:36
Speaker 1: his abuse, to control, of the jealousy, the isolation. I mean,
21:40
Speaker 1: we just have so many He is such a history
21:44
Speaker 1: of um. I mean, he was not crazy. He moved
21:49
Speaker 1: her all the way to Pasadena away from us, just
21:52
Speaker 1: to get her away from us because we were the
21:54
Speaker 1: ones like fighting for her to leave him, and you know,
21:57
Speaker 1: and how abusive people was and we were scared for her,
21:59
Speaker 1: and he did everything you know an abuser. I mean,
22:03
Speaker 1: you know all the hit all the signs, all the
22:05
Speaker 1: red flags, and so you know, he it just I
22:09
Speaker 1: I trust, I absolutely do think, UM that I know
22:14
Speaker 1: the DA has a great case, and UM, and I don't.
22:17
Speaker 1: I don't. I honestly, UM don't think that there's any
22:22
Speaker 1: chance that he's going to get that he was crazy
22:25
Speaker 1: or mentally insane. If that happens, I'll just I'll just
22:28
Speaker 1: lose it. But you know, I think they have so
22:31
Speaker 1: much evidence to support that he was right. He mentioned
22:37
Speaker 1: all the previous offenses, how long had he been beating
22:42
Speaker 1: her and mind controlling her? But mind control and the
22:47
Speaker 1: jealousy started very early on in their relationship. I would
22:50
Speaker 1: say was within a few months. And um, and I
22:53
Speaker 1: do believe that he got her pregnant. I think it
22:55
Speaker 1: was all part of the control. I do believe he
22:58
Speaker 1: got pregnant very early on. And then within about three
23:01
Speaker 1: or four months they were married. Um, you know, she
23:04
Speaker 1: had Alexis, who was now will be two in November,
23:08
Speaker 1: and then she had another pregnancy. She had another pregnancy
23:11
Speaker 1: in the middle of her one. Then when she was
23:13
Speaker 1: murdered and Alexis and um, we actually found out about
23:18
Speaker 1: the second pregnancy when she was in the ear from
23:20
Speaker 1: the abuse. Um, she couldn't open her eyes. Um, he
23:24
Speaker 1: nearly broke her nose. That I mean, it was it
23:27
Speaker 1: was awful. I mean, it was like when she sent
23:29
Speaker 1: me a picture. I was at work. It was like
23:30
Speaker 1: one in the morning. She was in the car with
23:32
Speaker 1: my parents. My parents had picked her up. They lived
23:35
Speaker 1: a two blocks over for most of the time, and
23:37
Speaker 1: she just I didn't even know about the physical abuse.
23:40
Speaker 1: And that was February, before the August she was murdered.
23:43
Speaker 1: So that's when we knew about the abuse. And she said, Mom,
23:46
Speaker 1: you know, he just took it too far this time.
23:48
Speaker 1: This has been going on. I mean, she told me
23:50
Speaker 1: it had been going on like every weekend. I mean
23:53
Speaker 1: she said, so, I had no idea. So it was
23:56
Speaker 1: from that moment on, Um, you know, when she was scared.
23:59
Speaker 1: She they we wanted her to press charges. Police did
24:02
Speaker 1: come to the hospital and encouraged her to press charges.
24:05
Speaker 1: She in that moment, found out she was pregnant with
24:08
Speaker 1: her second child, and then a week later she miscarried,
24:11
Speaker 1: and we do believe it was from the abuse, because
24:14
Speaker 1: she told us details about what he had done to her,
24:16
Speaker 1: and it all kind of think led back to her
24:19
Speaker 1: being miscarrying that second child. But she was separated from
24:23
Speaker 1: him because if the abuse in the control. When she
24:25
Speaker 1: got pregnant with her third child that she was pregnant
24:27
Speaker 1: with and she was murdered. I was sitting at a
24:29
Speaker 1: restaurant and she told me she was pregnant. They were separated,
24:32
Speaker 1: she was living with me at the time, and I
24:35
Speaker 1: just broke down in tears because I just knew it
24:38
Speaker 1: was his manipulative way of controlling her and making her
24:41
Speaker 1: come back to him, and I lost it. I just
24:43
Speaker 1: I wanted to be happy for the baby, and I
24:45
Speaker 1: was obviously like you know later, but I was just
24:48
Speaker 1: so scared for her and that child, and and you know,
24:51
Speaker 1: she finally said she was like she stood up her
24:54
Speaker 1: sit her ground and had him arrested, had his parents
24:57
Speaker 1: come and get all his belonging out to the apartment,
24:59
Speaker 1: was urting over for her and her children, and then
25:03
Speaker 1: they let him out, you know, and he killed her.
25:05
Speaker 1: And it's just it's just awful time stories with Nancy Grace,
25:24
Speaker 1: Karen start with me. Psychologists joining us from New York,
25:28
Speaker 1: and Karen, I'm going to hook you up with Melanie
25:32
Speaker 1: after our program because Karen, I know, I know you
25:38
Speaker 1: can help her. Karen, you know you and I sat
25:44
Speaker 1: on many many dark studios talking during commercial breaks and
25:51
Speaker 1: have met many many times for lunch or dinner to
25:56
Speaker 1: talk about cases. You know, I worked in the Battle
26:00
Speaker 1: Women's Center for nine years at night. This story is
26:06
Speaker 1: as old as time, and I don't know when this
26:10
Speaker 1: story is going to end. But what signs can other
26:15
Speaker 1: people look for to avoid domestic abuse? This girl is dead.
26:23
Speaker 1: For those of you just joining us, we are talking
26:26
Speaker 1: about a beautiful young girl, Caitlin. Oh my goodness. She
26:33
Speaker 1: has one little girl now too, miscarried a second and
26:38
Speaker 1: was carrying a baby at the time. She was brutally murdered,
26:43
Speaker 1: stabbed multiple times, twenty times, including directly in her stomach.
26:51
Speaker 1: Now I know if I was talking to a jury
26:54
Speaker 1: right now, some of them would turn away because it's
26:57
Speaker 1: just too much to take in stabbing her in the stomach.
27:01
Speaker 1: And I would tell that jury look him right in
27:03
Speaker 1: the eye and say don't turn away. Oh no, no, no,
27:07
Speaker 1: do you cannot turn away because this is the truth
27:11
Speaker 1: and we have a chance to do something about it
27:16
Speaker 1: instead of looking the other way. Karen Stark, I know, Melanie,
27:22
Speaker 1: and finger is going to agree with everything you say.
27:25
Speaker 1: What do we look for? And then you see Caitlin
27:29
Speaker 1: had moved out and then she was murdered. What do
27:33
Speaker 1: we look for and what do we do? Karen Stark, Well,
27:36
Speaker 1: first of all, Nancy, I just wanted to say to
27:38
Speaker 1: Melanie that my heart goes out for you. I am
27:41
Speaker 1: so sorry, really deep in my heart for what happened
27:45
Speaker 1: to you. And Nancy, it happens so often, just like
27:50
Speaker 1: you said, when we talk about it, we try to
27:52
Speaker 1: do something, and it's very, very hard to pin this down.
27:57
Speaker 1: It's a vicious cycle. What you look or is a
28:01
Speaker 1: woman who you can see that she has bruises, and
28:07
Speaker 1: she'll say to you that she tripped, she fell, somebody
28:13
Speaker 1: bumped into her. And you also get to see in
28:18
Speaker 1: the man involved in these cases that he apologizes precisely,
28:24
Speaker 1: he does whatever he may. He maybe this cat killer
28:27
Speaker 1: would buy a new cat and say this will never
28:30
Speaker 1: happen again. And the woman is so tied into the
28:34
Speaker 1: situation that she cannot get herself. She can't extricate herself
28:40
Speaker 1: from this person. He comes back with more and more
28:44
Speaker 1: promises that it will never ever happen again, and she
28:48
Speaker 1: loves him and is so used to being a part
28:51
Speaker 1: of this that she says, Okay, this time, I have
28:54
Speaker 1: hoped he will be different, and it's never different. And
28:58
Speaker 1: just like her mom, really have to plead to get
29:03
Speaker 1: that woman away from this violence. You have to plead,
29:07
Speaker 1: And isn't it true to Chief of Police, our very
29:11
Speaker 1: special guests in joining us Chief Bruger along with Brian
29:14
Speaker 1: Mazzola and Melanie in Finger, the violence will escalate. I
29:19
Speaker 1: know you've had your men and women trained in this.
29:22
Speaker 1: When the woman tries to leave, when the husband finds out,
29:27
Speaker 1: the boyfriend finds out she's going to leave, that's when
29:31
Speaker 1: the violence will definitely escalate. And that's what happened here, Chief, absolutely,
29:37
Speaker 1: and it ends up being a cycle that the cycle's
29:40
Speaker 1: not broken. You know, they go back off. Sometimes there's
29:43
Speaker 1: a honeymoon period, they try to make things right, but
29:46
Speaker 1: at some point the violence typically comes back, and when
29:48
Speaker 1: it comes back, it usually comes back more severe than
29:50
Speaker 1: in the previous time. And you know, we try and
29:54
Speaker 1: try to, you know, to get victims out of this situation.
29:57
Speaker 1: But it's such a mind game. It can be very,
30:00
Speaker 1: very difficult to get them to finally leave, and it
30:03
Speaker 1: can be a life or death decision many times. I mean,
30:06
Speaker 1: we have a lot of domestic violence related deaths, unfortunately,
30:09
Speaker 1: you know, to you, Jess got Morgan. I don't know
30:11
Speaker 1: how many autopsies said death things you've been on and conducted,
30:15
Speaker 1: you know, tens of thousands. But I don't know why
30:18
Speaker 1: they call it domestic homicide. That makes it sound so
30:22
Speaker 1: warm and cozy. Domestic your home, your domicile, it's anything.
30:28
Speaker 1: But yeah, you're absolutely right. I mean even you know,
30:30
Speaker 1: people when they think homicide and they automatically go to
30:33
Speaker 1: things like you know that I've been involved in, like
30:35
Speaker 1: serial homicide and all that stuff. Listen, let me tell
30:38
Speaker 1: you something. Those are few and far between. Domestics are rampant.
30:42
Speaker 1: They have been for years now, Nancy, and they are
30:45
Speaker 1: some of the most brutal things that I have borne
30:48
Speaker 1: witness too. I'm talking about scenes, and forgive me for
30:51
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm talking about scenes literally awash in blood,
30:55
Speaker 1: where I have fallen down because there was so much
30:58
Speaker 1: blood beneath my feet. On these scenes, slipping sliding. It's
31:03
Speaker 1: the links that these people go to that commit and
31:07
Speaker 1: you know it's not like that. It's not like this
31:09
Speaker 1: guy was going one on one with somebody that is
31:12
Speaker 1: his own size. And Karen can probably comment, this is
31:16
Speaker 1: what you call a symmetry where you got this big, dominant,
31:20
Speaker 1: brutish person and he's going against a pregnant woman, Nancy,
31:25
Speaker 1: and not just a pregnant woman, but a mama to boot,
31:29
Speaker 1: she's already got a child and he's going to do
31:31
Speaker 1: this to her. It gives you, it gives you an
31:34
Speaker 1: idea of how primal all of this is. And it's
31:37
Speaker 1: absolutely horrible and nothing, and I mean nothing is being
31:41
Speaker 1: done that is effective to interdict these situations. To Brian Mozola,
31:46
Speaker 1: the lawyer for Melanie in Finger, that is Caitlyn's mom,
31:50
Speaker 1: tell me and you can find Brian at Mozola Lawfirm
31:53
Speaker 1: dot com. What do you hope to gain with Caitlin's law, Well,
32:00
Speaker 1: we want to take a lot of the discretion away
32:02
Speaker 1: from these judges. Magistrate better not looking at the criminals.
32:09
Speaker 1: L I don't know where your background is, but that
32:12
Speaker 1: means praise the Lord, because I don't like these judges
32:17
Speaker 1: like callen doing this and it's like you can't stop them.
32:21
Speaker 1: I would sit back in court, Mozzola, I'm sure you
32:23
Speaker 1: have to, and I'd watch the judge and listen to
32:26
Speaker 1: them making one erroneous ruling after the next. In fact,
32:30
Speaker 1: like I held in contempt when I said to the judge, Judge,
32:33
Speaker 1: just turn around. And there's that codebook. It says OCGA
32:38
Speaker 1: on it, Official Code of Georgia Annotated and I can
32:41
Speaker 1: tell you the section and section blah blah blah where
32:44
Speaker 1: I can tell you your ruling is wrong. I got
32:48
Speaker 1: held in contempt. They don't want to know that they're wrong,
32:51
Speaker 1: and they're going to keep on doing it until we
32:53
Speaker 1: make them stop. So how are you going to do
32:56
Speaker 1: that with Caitlin's law. Well, maybe I'm mistake a bad
32:59
Speaker 1: This guy's got load on his hands, and and uh,
33:02
Speaker 1: you know that's what we're aiming to change with Caitlin's Law.
33:06
Speaker 1: To add provisions to the Bell system Bell Schedule, I
33:13
Speaker 1: should say that states under certain instances that the magistrate
33:18
Speaker 1: does not have the discretion to release criminals on PR bond,
33:23
Speaker 1: one of those exceptions being whenever the defendant has been
33:26
Speaker 1: previously charged with a saft family violence, which obviously in
33:30
Speaker 1: this case happened. And you know, given the set of fact,
33:35
Speaker 1: had this provision been in the Bell schedule, then we
33:40
Speaker 1: wouldn't be talking about this today. Well, Brian Azzoa, you
33:43
Speaker 1: are a champion in my mind, as are you, Chief Bruger.
33:48
Speaker 1: To Melanie in Finger, the mother of Caitlin, who is
33:53
Speaker 1: fighting to get Caitlin's law passed all over the country
33:57
Speaker 1: where judges cannot release the domestic killers. You know when
34:03
Speaker 1: I heard that he I'm not even gonna say his name.
34:07
Speaker 1: The killer would control her phone, take her phone away
34:11
Speaker 1: right there, right there. You don't take your equal co
34:17
Speaker 1: partner's phone away right there. That simple little act tells
34:23
Speaker 1: me he is controlling her. I got a question for you,
34:27
Speaker 1: Miss in Finger. Do you ever feel that Caitlin has
34:33
Speaker 1: tried to contact you or give you a message? Oh?
34:37
Speaker 1: All the time? I mean I feel her and she
34:39
Speaker 1: leaves me signs all the time. I mean I talked
34:41
Speaker 1: to her every day, um and and I know she
34:45
Speaker 1: was just proud and pushing me forward. And I see
34:49
Speaker 1: her in her baby's eyes every day. And you know
34:51
Speaker 1: I'm raising her daughter, I'm Alexis. And she absolutely talks
34:56
Speaker 1: to me all the time and just smiling, and I'm
34:59
Speaker 1: just cheering her, you know, as someone and just and
35:02
Speaker 1: I know she's proud and she helped me that often.
35:06
Speaker 1: Miss Enfinger, You're stronger than I am. The thought of
35:10
Speaker 1: not having Lucy or John David, I just would not
35:15
Speaker 1: want to live anymore. I just would not want to live.
35:18
Speaker 1: And you are carrying on to raise her daughter. You
35:24
Speaker 1: are one strong lady. And I pray for you and
35:30
Speaker 1: your granddaughter and Caitlin and that somehow you can make
35:37
Speaker 1: a difference in this world. I know you already have
35:39
Speaker 1: in my life. Thank you, Caitlin's Yes, ma'am. Thank you www.
35:45
Speaker 1: Dot Caitlin's Law dot org. Please help us help Melanie
35:52
Speaker 1: make a difference in this world. Nancy Grace Crime Story
35:57
Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,