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Why MDOT is solidifying policies for use of facilities · Talking Michigan Transportation

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Hello, welcome to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast.
• 0:10
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Jeff Cranson.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: This week, the Michigan Department of Transportation held public hearings for people to weigh in with comments on some new administrative rules that have been proposed to guide the department and its employees and how it deals with people who are camping or staying for long periods of time on MDAP facilities.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: These could include rest areas or carpool lots or even underneath the overpasses, basically freeway bridges.
• 0:48
  SPEAKER_02: These often uh present a danger to the people and to others.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um sometimes there have been fires started, and obviously that's that's a problem, especially if they're near gas lines or other utilities, which are sometimes at these facilities under the overpasses, especially.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this is not an effort to just indiscriminately roust people.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um there's been a lot of discussion in the department, and a lot of people have worked very hard and patiently to try to be as compassionate as possible and try to bring in the help from other state agencies, the Michigan State Housing Development Authority and the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services, among others, including nonprofit groups.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_02: But there are also a lot of resource challenges there.
• 1:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh the department has had a funding crisis for decades.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_02: Everybody should know that by now, and finding the resources to deal with these problems, takes resources away from other things like uh basic maintenance of the roads.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that it's it's only fair to think about what the right resources are for these agencies and try to try to connect people with those and deal with this as the very human problem and problem that confronts all of society that it is.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: Greg Lash, who is the University Region Engineer for the Michigan Department of Transportation, has taken the lead on working with the other state agencies on these rules and was the one to speak about this at the public hearings.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: So I wanted to catch up with him and let him explain how this all came to be and what the thoughts are behind it.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope you learn from the conversation.
• 2:31
  SPEAKER_02: So, Greg Losh, uh first-time visitor to the Talking Michigan Transportation Podcast, uh, thank you for taking time to do this.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Talk a little bit first about what you do as the University Region Engineer.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: That means that you're the head administrator over one of MDOT's seven regions, yours being called the University Region because it takes in our two biggest public universities, uh, among many other counties and cities.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, talk about your role there and then how it fell on you to kind of shepherd through this administrative rules process.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thanks, Jeff.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_01: And uh my role really is based on the fact that I have uh an amazing team in the university region.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, while business is conducted every day, designing, planning, maintaining, constructing roads um and bridges, my job is really to help my staff get through you know some of the hurdles that they face every day, right?
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_01: They know how to do the day-to-day work, but as we do our day-to-day work, we always run into obstacles and challenges and opportunities.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_01: And uh my job is to find a way to be helpful and get through those with uh with my team.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_01: So, and uh the reason I'm working on administrative rules is over the past number of years, we have really struggled to uh basically address complaints and respond to complaints from the public regarding our uh public facilities that MDOT has jurisdiction over.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh as we continue to work through it, look into it, we've always had our internal rules, right?
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_01: That we had as a department to the uh intended use and design of our facilities, but uh you know they were not statutorily tied to anything.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: So as time went on, it became clear that you know our legal authority to ask for help in addressing behaviors that were becoming bigger issues uh wasn't something that we had the ability to do.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So uh, you know, moving through, talking to our AG's office, who have been extremely helpful, we determined that MDOT does have the legal authority to promulgate rules that uh are associated with the facilities we have jurisdiction for, but we have to go through an official rulemaking process through the office of uh Lara.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: So um it's it's one of those long kind of uh bureaucratic processes, but it it's it's meant to be that way to to you know make sure that all of the steps are followed and that the right processes are are being adhered to.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I've watched you and other people at MDOT uh over the years deal with people, either the unhoused or other people for any reason, I guess for lack of a better term, camping or or living in in assets that are we call them MDOT facilities.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: This could be anything from under uh an overpass, you know, a freeway bridge, to rest areas or carpool lots.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: Our concern always, obviously, is is the danger that they could be presenting to themselves or others.
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: But this was, I think, misframed uh for many out of the gate.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: And this was not an attempt to just roust people indiscriminately, and nobody at MDOT has ever done that.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I think lots of people have shown a lot of compassion, a lot of understanding.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: We know that Michigan, like many states, has a chronic housing problem, affordable housing problem, um, things that were brought on years ago uh by deinstitutionalization, other forces, but we also don't have the resources, especially in the Department of Transportation.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, I've been talking about this for decades that there's been a lack of investment in transportation.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um, some other states that have had to deal with this are better resourced.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_02: They have uh nonprofits that step up to help, and uh they have other agencies within the state that are better funded and can do these kinds of things.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: And we don't have that to rely on.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_02: So uh talk about how you're I guess how you're confronting those challenges.
• 6:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so that's that is one of the focus areas that seems to be uh a lot of the concerns from the public is that uh it's been framed kind of that we are criminalizing the homeless or the unhoused.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, internally at MDOT, we sat down and looked at the list of issues that we are facing across our network and with our facilities, and the list of you know issues that we're trying to address were basically drafted into the draft rules that we have now.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_01: So what we are trying to address are a number of different things, and yes, we're looking at trying to establish short-term time frames at our rest areas so that the expectations are clear that you know, pull in, close your eyes, you know, rest up.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, 48 hours is still quite a bit of time.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, a lot of times we we look at that and we're just saying we're we're very open and we invite the public to rest at our rest areas.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: We're just we're trying to limit that time frame so that it's clear and the expectations are clear that we don't anticipate people staying for uh long-term stays at our rest areas because we don't design or maintain them for that.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: And uh that's just one aspect of the rules.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: There's uh but there is a lot of need out there.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: I I worked with uh MDHHS and Mishta, and you know, the the need and and the draw out there, um the numbers are increasing, right?
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_01: There's there's more and more homelessness due to the our our our market, our our housing market, and a lot of the other economical factors that are that are being uh basically drawn out in our society, and the resources that they need to provide resources to the the vulnerable populations are not being increased.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um so there is an increase out there and we are trying to address you know our needs as a department uh to continue to provide the best quality we can with the limited resources we have.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: And it all comes from the same pot of money for transportation.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_01: So you know, if we have uh if we don't have rules establishing base expectations of use at our rest areas and welcome centers and other facilities, then all the resources and time and staff it takes to address those issues comes out of the same pot of money as we spend to fill potholes and fix bridges.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_01: So we're looking for a couple different angles to a provide a better service to our public and also just establish some base rules that we currently don't have so that when behavior does become a problem, we can ask for help.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_02: So I know as part of this process, as you mentioned, it's a it's an arduous process to establish these kinds of things involving several state agencies.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I should say out of the gate, you mentioned a couple of acronyms, uh, the Department of Health and Human Services, MDHS, and MISTA, which is the Michigan State Housing Development Authority.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_02: And our colleagues at MISTA have said several times over the years that camping in the median or under overpasses or really in any of these public facilities is not a solution to homelessness, and that they have a long-term plan and they have resources and things that they do, working with the shelters and other private agencies.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_02: All of those things are complicated for various reasons.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_02: But I I think in the in the public hearings that are required as part of the process to implement these rules, you heard from a lot of people, a lot of advocates who really thought this was something new that you had allowed this previously, and now you're saying that you're not going to allow it anymore.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: And that's not quite right.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_02: So can you explain that distinction?
• 10:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we we've never intended for long-term stays at our facilities.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, a lot of the resources that uh are out there, they're funded, like you said, by either two those two agencies or by, you know, third-party uh independent groups.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_01: But you know, we at transportation are not the solution, but we can have a seat at the table to help those agencies know what's going on out there and provide information to them.
• 11:05
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, while the intent here is to establish base rules so people know what to expect and that we have some illegal authority to ask for help, you know, when we start talking about this, this is a human issue.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, our guidance that will accompany these rules will be, you know, maybe the police aren't the first call for every situation.
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: And if you see somebody who is struggling or needs help or is in one of our uh facilities for more than what it's intended for, you know, there will be information that is released with the rules internally here at MDOT that will get the right contacts, the right groups, the right resources to uh MDOT staff so that uh we we can be helpful.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_01: Right now we don't even have the legal authority to ask for help, right?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: So when when we see somebody living in their car or camping under a bridge, or we have limited tools in our toolbox to either help or to look out for their safety.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And uh these rules will give us another tool in the toolbox that will you know give us a base starting point so that we can ask for help and additional resources will be out there for staff to rely on.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_02: We'll be right back.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_02: Stay tuned.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: Even with the best planning, backups and traffic congestion can occur during road construction.
• 12:32
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• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Motorists are more likely than workers to be killed or injured in work zone-related incidents.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: Additionally, the leading causes of all work zone-related crashes are distracted driving and speeding.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: So it's crucial to do your part in ensuring the safety of both drivers and focusing on your most important task, safe driving.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Slow down and stay focused.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_02: So, how much did it come up in the hearings and the discussions uh yesterday, Wednesday, October 22nd?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, how many details were shared about some of the more extreme things that have been witnessed uh in the rest areas and and carpool lots in terms of long-term campers with generators and things like that?
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so we we did not really approach the public hearings from that standpoint.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the the complaints, the pictures, the situations that I know all MDOT staff are aware of, uh were not really shared in the public hearing, uh, mainly because a lot of those were reported to us, you know, not necessarily as public comment, right?
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: They're a complaint or an issue or situation, or they contained, you know, information that we did not necessarily want to just put out there so that wouldn't negatively characterize, you know, the vulnerable populations that we are actually, you know, there's concern here with.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we listened mainly to what the public had to say about the rules that we have posted, and their concerns are mainly that we are, you know, criminalizing or singling out vulnerable populations.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, our job was to try to clarify that and provide information that not that's not our goal here.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: Our goal is to provide rules for our rest areas, welcome centers, carpool lots, and other facilities that give us a starting point to ask for help.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, another issue that came up was uh, you know, just one of the one of the rules deals with the ability or the right to demonstrate um or protest in our right-of-way.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And our goal there is simply to say, hey, you know, we would like you to get official permission in most situations because when the public protests or demonstrates in places where traffic could be in contact with pedestrians, we want to make sure some steps have been taken to plan for that and that traffic control or law enforcement have been contacted.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I I think the public has uh a misconception that we're trying to um infringe on freedom of speech, but that's that's not also one of our goals.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_01: Our goals are hey, you know, the people that are worried about this know how to do those things correctly, but there are some bad actors out there that try to block entranceways or intimidate people at our rest areas.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and and we want to make sure that we have an ability to ask for help to deal with that behavior.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but as far as you know, our our populations um unhoused and homeless, you know, we heard a lot of concern uh that we're trying to criminalize that, and it's not our goal.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: Our goal is to provide expectations so everyone clearly knows what to expect.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I think that you're right.
• 15:57
  SPEAKER_02: The one of the things that I think has been misunderstood or mischaracterized is the component that deals with the right to assembly, whether you want to uh seek signatures on petitions or campaign for candidates or causes, or like you said, just simply have a peaceful protest.
• 16:17
  SPEAKER_02: In the past, without these rules, um what has MDOT's practice been for that sort of thing?
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: Usually we we again we don't infringe on it, but we have you know made sure that the the proper channels have been followed to ensure people's safety, right?
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: We we don't necessarily ask what the topic's about, but we we do definitely say, hey, have you planned ahead?
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_01: And um or or we, you know, a lot of times we'll be responding to the public complaint, like, hey, I stopped at whatever rest area and someone asked me to sign a petition, and I don't really want to be solicited for that.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Why why are you allowing this, m dot?
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_01: And that allows us to basically set some ground rules that hey, if you're gonna do this, there's there's gonna be some some ground rules.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_01: Not everybody wants to be approached, not everybody wants to be solicited.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: And while we don't use the word soliciting in our administrative rules, you know, our our rules are kind of tending to address behaviors that could be labeled that.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, you know, it it just gives us a baseline again, um a baseline expectation so that the public knows what to expect.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then we have a way to ask for help if if people are uh getting outside those school posts.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think that you can enter any any public or even private place off of a public street and encounter somebody on a sidewalk um with petitions asking you to sign.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, I I encounter it all the time.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_02: And if you choose not to, you know, the people that are are asking are always like, okay, fine, they don't pressure you and they don't like throw it in your face.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_02: So I think that's one of the other things that's been that's been misunderstood about this.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_02: That uh if you if you seek permission to do that and set up at a at a place and you conduct yourself um peacefully without being disturbing, nobody's saying that you shouldn't be allowed to do that, right?
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And again, these rules do not do not make MDOT an enforcing agency, right?
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, these rules are just in place, similar to the DNR's rules for the state parks.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_01: That, you know, I I a lot of my examples, I you know, I do a lot of camping.
• 18:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I visit a lot of state parks and they all have the same sign as you pull in.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_01: You know, like quiet time starts at this time and no alcoholic beverages, but you know, most of the campsites have alcoholic beverages, and it's not enforced unless it becomes a problem.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_01: And that's a lot of what we're doing here is most people are not gonna notice a change in how they use our rest areas or welcome centers.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: And most people that uh are of concern, you know, are still gonna be able to swing by and get some rest.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, for 48 hours, all we're saying is MDOT's not gonna be hunting for people who are there for 49 hours.
• 19:01
  SPEAKER_01: We're we're looking for people that have been out there for three weeks and we've received complaints that they are, you know, running generators outside their vehicle or you know, not even bothered to walk their trash over to the trash receptacles and they're leaving it in the parking lot or all over the place.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, we've got a lot of um uh misconception out there that mdot really is trying to crack down on people, and and that's not our not our goal at all.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you've you've explained it very well and brought some clarity to it.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh where do you see things going from here?
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_01: So our next steps are to our our public comment period started um October 8th and runs till November 20th.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_01: So we have a website out there that uh has all this information on it.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: And uh we have are continuing to collect public input.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_01: And um after November 20th, we'll compile what comments we've had and categorize them and respond and address to the best of our ability.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: Uh compared to the language in our draft rules as as they exist right now for any you know revisions for clarity or you know, any anything that we can do to you know to compare what the public's saying to what we're trying to accomplish.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_01: At the same time, we're not gonna lose sight of the operational needs that these rules have for us.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_01: So um, and then we have some final steps with uh uh the joint committee on administrative rules, which consists of five uh senators and five representatives.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um I can't remember the names on there, but it is uh pretty bipartisan.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: And uh they review what we're trying to accomplish and how we've addressed the comments from the public.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_01: And and there's some steps that they go through.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_01: Um either to enact what we're trying to do, I guess, through approvals, or they can um introduce legislation to to either slow down or pause what we're doing.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: But at the end of the day, MDOT still, you know, is looking at trying to get rules that'll work for our facilities and help us to improve our ability to provide safe and and quality facilities to the public with the limited resources we have.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, our goal is not going to change.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, just how we get there, you know, is still yet to be determined based on the final steps of the process we're going through.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I think you should put a major point of emphasis on on what you said that uh these are draft rules.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_02: So the part of this process is taking input that might um lead to some changes and some improvements.
• 21:33
  unknown: Right.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_02: Well, thanks, Greg.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for taking time to explain this.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: Uh once again, I I know uh how conscientious you've been about this whole process and how much time it's taken away from your other duties, which are Legion.
• 21:48
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I appreciate that you've been able to explain this and uh break it down for people and maybe deal with some some of the misunderstandings.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_01: No, I appreciate it, Jeff.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, um it is a human issue when we start talking about the concerns around unhoused and homelessness.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, every single one of those folks have been through some sort of trauma.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, you know, they they are our people, and we need to be conscious of that as we go through this.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it's it's definitely not an easy topic and not what I went to school for, but uh it's definitely I do see it being important to our department, and I'm gonna stick with it.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I was gonna ask you how many of your classes and your civil engineering curriculum dealt with this.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, zero.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: No, I I I I appreciate that you you also stated it that way.
• 22:43
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's a it's very much a human issue, it's a challenge.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's a whole of government, it's it's nonprofit agencies, you know, many cities are are dealing with this and trying to find their own creative solutions, and nobody's it's a cliche, but there really is no silver bullet.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um every circumstance is different, and it just it takes patience and and and compassion and creativity.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_02: And I know that you're this this is not something that mdot's dealing with alone.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_02: The the help from those other agencies is is also much appreciated, and we'll have a lot more to talk about.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_02: But uh thank you again.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you, Jeff.
• 23:21
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• 23:25
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• 23:30
  SPEAKER_02: I also want to acknowledge the talented people who help make this a reality each week, starting with Randy Debler, who skillfully edits the audio, Jesse Ball, who proofs the content, Courtney Bates, who posts the podcast to various platforms, and Jackie Salinas, who transcribes the audio to make it accessible to all.