Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #942 Brad Wilcox On Why You Should Get Married

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#942 Brad Wilcox On Why You Should Get Married · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families Podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: answers Now, gooday.
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  Speaker 1: And welcome to the Happy Family's Podcast. My name is
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  Speaker 1: doctor Justin Coilson. I'm just delighted states to welcome an
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  Speaker 1: esteemed guest to the podcast. Brad Wilcox, Professor of sociology
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  Speaker 1: and the director of the National Marriage Project at the
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  Speaker 1: University of Virginia, the Future of Freedom Fellow at the
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  Speaker 1: Institute for Family Studies, and a non resident Senior Fellow
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  Speaker 1: at the American Enterprise Institute. I think that when it
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  Speaker 1: comes to academic credentials, this guy has them all. He
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  Speaker 1: studies marital quality marital stability in the impact of strong
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  Speaker 1: and stable marriages upon men, women, and children. Brad has
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  Speaker 1: written six books. He's also written for The New York Times,
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  Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal, the Atlantic National Review, as well
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  Speaker 1: as scientific journals such as the American Sociological Review and
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  Speaker 1: the Journal of Marriage and Family. He lives in Charlottesville, Virginia,
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  Speaker 1: with his wife and family, including a dotted kids, some twins.
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  Speaker 1: They're all in there. Brad, you and I got to
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  Speaker 1: know each other probably a dozen years ago at a
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  Speaker 1: big conference here in Australia and it's just such a
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  Speaker 1: delight to have you on the Happy Families podcast today.
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  Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me.
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  Speaker 2: Wonderful to be here with you, justin what you're doing
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  Speaker 2: down under.
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  Speaker 1: So, Brad, you've just written a book called Get Married.
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  Speaker 1: Literally that's it, Get Married Why Americans, and I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to say Australians as well, masterfy the elites, forge strong
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  Speaker 1: families and save civilization. I finished the book across the weekend,
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  Speaker 1: and in fact, I was really really fortunate to be
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  Speaker 1: able to sneak away with my wife and one of
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  Speaker 1: our kids. We have this tradition when our kids turned sixteen,
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  Speaker 1: we take them on a really special holiday for three
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  Speaker 1: or four days. We talked to them about all the
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  Speaker 1: big stuff. I mean, we've had lots of conversations anyway,
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  Speaker 1: but this is kind of a sweet sixteen. Let's talk
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  Speaker 1: about romance and relationships and intimacy. Let's talk about finance
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  Speaker 1: and education and the spiritual stuff. That's what we were doing.
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  Speaker 1: And while I was on the flight with my wife
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  Speaker 1: and daughter, we got separated. I wasn't able to sit
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  Speaker 1: with them. I was sitting beside this other couple. I
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  Speaker 1: asked them where they were going and why they were
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  Speaker 1: heading in the same direction as me, And they told
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  Speaker 1: me a bit about what was going on. They were
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  Speaker 1: heading off for a wedding. They were going to be
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  Speaker 1: celebrating their friend's wedding, and during the course of the conversation,
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  Speaker 1: the woman that I was sitting next to told me
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  Speaker 1: that they were several months pregnant. And then they also said,
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  Speaker 1: we haven't gotten married yet. I was holding your book
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  Speaker 1: called Get Married, and it led to a conversation where
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  Speaker 1: she sort of said, what's the book about, what's about
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  Speaker 1: why you should get married? And as we talked, what
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  Speaker 1: was really interesting to me was I was trying not
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  Speaker 1: to let her eyes glaze over when I got into
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  Speaker 1: some statistics and talked about the policy implications of it.
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  Speaker 1: But she started to get a little bit bored. She
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  Speaker 1: started to feel like I was telling her that she
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  Speaker 1: had to get married because she and the guy that
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  Speaker 1: she was sitting beside were having a baby, and they
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  Speaker 1: were off to a wedding and I'm reading a book
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  Speaker 1: called Get Married. At all just kind of fitted there,
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  Speaker 1: and yet she was really resistant to the idea. My
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  Speaker 1: first question for you is are people just not getting
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  Speaker 1: married anymore?
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  Speaker 2: Well, we've certainly seen a dramatic decline both in the
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  Speaker 2: United States and in Australia in the marriage rate justin
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  Speaker 2: so it's come down by about fifty percent in Australia
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  Speaker 2: since nineteen seventy. And that's just kind of one indicator
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  Speaker 2: of what I call kind of the closing of the
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  Speaker 2: American art. You can talk about the closing of the
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  Speaker 2: Australian heart where fewer and few people are getting married.
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  Speaker 2: And I think it's partly about aspirations. It's less kind
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  Speaker 2: of central as an aspiration for folks, including your seat
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  Speaker 2: mate on the on the flight. But then of course
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  Speaker 2: too there are folks too if like they can't find
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  Speaker 2: someone who'd be, you know, a good fit for them
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  Speaker 2: or worthy of marriage as well. And that's more of
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  Speaker 2: a peorn working class challenge facing both Americans and Australians
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  Speaker 2: as well.
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  Speaker 1: So I want to come back to the why stuff
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  Speaker 1: a little bit later in the conversation. The one thing
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  Speaker 1: that I recall from discussions going back decades with people
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  Speaker 1: around marriage is so many people will say, it's just
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  Speaker 1: a piece of paper. What's your response to that.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a great I think challenge facing us. But
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  Speaker 2: in terms of you know the data, it cannot be
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  Speaker 2: clear that there's really no comparison to marriage when it
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  Speaker 2: comes to giving people a sense of stability, meaning direction
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  Speaker 2: and happiness as well. And probably one of the big
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  Speaker 2: differences between coabitation and marriage, because those, of course the
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  Speaker 2: two real competitors here, is that marriage is just that
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  Speaker 2: much more stable. What we see in the US, for instance,
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  Speaker 2: is that folks who are having kids are about twice
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  Speaker 2: as likely to stay together compared to people who are
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  Speaker 2: cohabiting and having children. Just kind of something about that ceremony.
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  Speaker 2: We're social animals. We actually attach a lot of sort
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  Speaker 2: of either implicit or explicit importance to rituals. And if
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  Speaker 2: you think of just even kind of the difference between
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  Speaker 2: kind of coabitation and marriage in terms of terms of
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  Speaker 2: entry justin I mean, imagine couples kind of moving in
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  Speaker 2: that you know, that first weekend. There's no assembled, you know,
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  Speaker 2: group of family and friends watching them with smiles on
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  Speaker 2: their faces, no music, no vows exchanged, and all that's
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  Speaker 2: just kind of not there. It's just two people doing
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  Speaker 2: their own thing. And by contrast, marriage is about kind
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  Speaker 2: of a collective ritual where people come together family and friends,
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  Speaker 2: where the couple makes public vows, even often in the
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  Speaker 2: secular ceremony, and that's just pretty important kind of defining
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  Speaker 2: yourself not just you know, as a couple, but holes
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  Speaker 2: in the eys of your family and friends in terms
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  Speaker 2: of giving your relationship a sense of solidity that's much
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  Speaker 2: more likely to go in the distance. So that's sort
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  Speaker 2: of one example of the way in which marriage and
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  Speaker 2: grabitation really are quite different things, even in twenty twenty four.
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  Speaker 1: Another angle that I hear a lot, and I do
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  Speaker 1: want to talk about the stats around how how marriage
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  Speaker 1: does benefit people versus cohabitation. But just before I go there,
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  Speaker 1: I think of the paragon of the feminist movement and
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  Speaker 1: had Opportunity, and this idea that marriage stifles life. I
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  Speaker 1: think of e Pray Love and Elizabeth Gilbert and the
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  Speaker 1: way that she has essentially said I wasn't happy, I
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  Speaker 1: wasn't feeling fulfilled. I needed opportunity. I needed to find myself.
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  Speaker 1: I need to do what makes me happy. This is
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  Speaker 1: something that it seems to it seems to be a
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  Speaker 1: dominant narrative. I mean, your book is about why Americans
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  Speaker 1: must defy the elites. This feels to me like it's
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  Speaker 1: a really strong elite message. It comes from the major
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  Speaker 1: media outlets, it comes from Hollywood. It certainly comes from
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  Speaker 1: the voices like Elizabeth Gilbert who are elevated because of
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  Speaker 1: their book and their perspective on life. What's your response
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  Speaker 1: to this idea that if I can just find myself,
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  Speaker 1: I'm going to be much better off.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. So what's interesting is I talk about the soulmate
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  Speaker 2: myth in the book, and it's kind of this idea,
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  Speaker 2: and I begin that chapter with a discussion of Liz
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  Speaker 2: Gilbert's book You Pray Love, and it's kind of like
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  Speaker 2: this sort of assumption that there's like one perfect person
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  Speaker 2: out there for you. It's going to be kind of
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  Speaker 2: like a seamless fit between you and that perfect person
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  Speaker 2: for you. It's going to be kind of an intense
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  Speaker 2: emotional connection. It's kind of generally and generous sense of
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  Speaker 2: fulfillment and happiness in your life and in your relationship.
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  Speaker 2: So I think this kind of like overly rosy view,
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  Speaker 2: overly romanticized view of relationships is obviously kind of rose colored.
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  Speaker 2: It doesn't kind of acknowledge that, you know, we grow
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  Speaker 2: and change and there's conflict in a relationship, that we're
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  Speaker 2: not perfect so I think it has difficulty kind of
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  Speaker 2: wrapping its head around that it tends to be very
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  Speaker 2: adult centered, not appreciating how much you know, marriage for instance,
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  Speaker 2: matters for kids and for kin. It's also linked to
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  Speaker 2: higher rates of you know, maritle and stability. We looked
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  Speaker 2: at couples in California and found that couples who kind
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  Speaker 2: of embraced this more romanticized view of marriage were much
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  Speaker 2: more likely to report that divorce might be in their
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  Speaker 2: future compared to couples who took what we call the
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  Speaker 2: family first model that included yes, romans, but also kind
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  Speaker 2: of recognizing the marriage about finances and kids and raising
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  Speaker 2: a family together. But that's also I think worth bearing
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  Speaker 2: in mind. And the final point that I'd make is
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  Speaker 2: that surprisingly, we also found that couples who embraced the
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  Speaker 2: more family first model, which is kind of a more
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  Speaker 2: institutional model, a less you know, emotional model, were also
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  Speaker 2: happy in their marriages. And I think gets in part
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  Speaker 2: because there wasn't just kind of like this focus and
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  Speaker 2: expectation that there'd be kind of like this intense passion
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  Speaker 2: governing their relationship almost all the time. There's just kind
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  Speaker 2: of recognition that, yes, realminds is valuable, but I'm also
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  Speaker 2: grateful for my husband's role as a father, or my
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  Speaker 2: wife's place in organizing family holidays or whatever it might be.
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  Speaker 2: So there's just kind of a more rich understanding of
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  Speaker 2: the many different kinds of goods served by marriage, and
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  Speaker 2: couples who had kind of this more balanced view, more
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  Speaker 2: realistic view about what marriage is all about, were actually
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  Speaker 2: happier as well. So I think the paradox of marital
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  Speaker 2: happiness here that I talk about in that chapter is
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  Speaker 2: that if you're kind of directly pursuing happiness in your
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  Speaker 2: love relationship and in your marriage, you're less likely to
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  Speaker 2: get it. And by contrast, if you're more intent on
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  Speaker 2: being a good husband, a good wife, a good father,
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  Speaker 2: and a good mother, I think you're more likely to
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  Speaker 2: elicit that a tension, that affection, even that ardor that
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  Speaker 2: comes from being a good spouse and a good parent.
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  Speaker 1: A couple of observations based on what you've just said.
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  Speaker 1: First Off, the Hollywood model is the relationships are all
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  Speaker 1: about the whiz bang, or alternatively, once you look at
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  Speaker 1: the Hollywood stories that get into the nitty gritty of marriage,
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  Speaker 1: they really do focus on the conflict and the challenge
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  Speaker 1: and the difficulty. They're often quite sad stories. I'm guessing
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  Speaker 1: that's because if you just told a story about a
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  Speaker 1: happy couple, there wouldn't be much. Yeah, there's no drama.
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  Speaker 1: You need the tension and you need the conflict to
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  Speaker 1: tell a great story. But often those stories end up
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  Speaker 1: so tragically. The second observation, as I'm listening to what
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  Speaker 1: you're saying, is that what I think I'm hearing you
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  Speaker 1: tell me is that so many of the interactions that
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  Speaker 1: I have with Kylie, my wife of twenty six years now,
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  Speaker 1: are essentially logistics, and a good marriage ultimately comes down
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  Speaker 1: to planning the meals for this week and working out
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  Speaker 1: which parents taking which child where, and who's going to
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  Speaker 1: be here on Saturday night and who's going to be
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  Speaker 1: there on Friday morning and all that kind of thing.
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  Speaker 1: I feel like a good marriage essentially is just a
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  Speaker 1: very long logistics meeting.
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  Speaker 2: Well, and that's I want to be careful right about
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  Speaker 2: that perspective. And I think you know one of the
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  Speaker 2: things that you know comes out in the book is
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  Speaker 2: I spoke to a woman here in Virginia in her
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  Speaker 2: fifties and she's got a bunch of friends have gotten divorced,
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  Speaker 2: and one of the things that she said about them
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  Speaker 2: was that, you know, they kind of stuck through all
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  Speaker 2: the kids, you know journey, and then once the kids
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  Speaker 2: hit eighteen, they'd be able to kind of look around
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  Speaker 2: and they're like, you know what, there's not much left
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  Speaker 2: here in my marriage. I've been so focused on the kids.
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  Speaker 2: My husband's kind of focused on his work and his hobbies,
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  Speaker 2: and I'm out of here. So I want to be
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  Speaker 2: careful just to sort of stress that, yes, marriage is
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  Speaker 2: about more than romance. But I think neglecting that romantic
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  Speaker 2: and emotional connection is also very bad idea. And so
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  Speaker 2: what we see in the research for this book is
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  Speaker 2: that couples of a regular date night, for instance, justin
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  Speaker 2: are about twenty percentage points more likely to be happily
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  Speaker 2: married compared to those who are not. And it's one
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  Speaker 2: of the best predictors of kind of a happy marriage
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  Speaker 2: as we kind of run regressions and data and all
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  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. So what I'm saying here is
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  Speaker 2: have a fully orbed vision of what marriage is. Understand
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  Speaker 2: it's more than feelings. It's one of the romans, but
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  Speaker 2: don't neglect to kind of keep cultivating that romance, and
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  Speaker 2: I recommend, you know, trying to do a date night
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  Speaker 2: once a week or at least once every two weeks
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  Speaker 2: to kind of keep that spark alive and kind of
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  Speaker 2: keep that emotional connection strong.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, let's do a lightning round. If you were to
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  Speaker 1: highlight the benefits to couples from being married versus being
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  Speaker 1: a single or co happening. What does the data point
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  Speaker 1: too well?
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  Speaker 2: I think one of the key things that we see
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  Speaker 2: is that knowledge are more stability, but there's also a
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  Speaker 2: better financial picture. And so one thing we see is
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  Speaker 2: that married men and women have about ten times the
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  Speaker 2: assets as they're never married peers as they hit their fifties.
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  Speaker 2: And that's in part because married folks, as compared to
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  Speaker 2: crabbeting folks, are much more likely to be prudential on
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  Speaker 2: how they're spending money, more likely to invest money and
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  Speaker 2: say things you know, stocks and bonds, shared house, et cetera,
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  Speaker 2: whereas cobbiting couples and single people are more likely just
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  Speaker 2: to spend money that comes into, you know, into their accounts.
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  Speaker 2: That's that's one example of the financial benefits that flow
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  Speaker 2: from marriage.
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  Speaker 1: Ten times is a big number. What are the benefits
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  Speaker 1: to men from being married.
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  Speaker 2: Interesting question, because when I talk about marriage today would
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  Speaker 2: often get britically from younger men and from teenage boys.
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  Speaker 2: Is kind of like that look in their eyes, and
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  Speaker 2: I'll ask them if you've heard of Andrew Tait and
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  Speaker 2: they'll nod, and they've heard Andrew Tait and his critique
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  Speaker 2: of marriage, and his basic point is that today marriage
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  Speaker 2: is a bad bet because most marriages end in divorce,
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  Speaker 2: and so it's better for men to just focus on
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  Speaker 2: getting rich, getting strong, getting physically fit, and using but
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  Speaker 2: not investing in women. So the response that I make
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  Speaker 2: to that kind of argument is that actually, today most
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  Speaker 2: marriages go the distance, and there are ways you can
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  Speaker 2: kind of minimize risk of divorces guys. So being game, fleeing,
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  Speaker 2: played full time lowers risk of divorce. Going to church
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  Speaker 2: with your wife big factor in reducing your risk of divorce,
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  Speaker 2: regular date nights, you know, cultivating that romance also a
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  Speaker 2: way to reduce your risk of divorce. And so men
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  Speaker 2: who get and stay married are the happiest men out
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  Speaker 2: there that we see. You know, there's no question, for instance,
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  Speaker 2: that married men with kids especially are about three times
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  Speaker 2: as likely to be very happy with their lives. Compared
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  Speaker 2: to unmarried men in America, they report more meeting their lives,
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  Speaker 2: a lot less loneliness, and they're much much less likely
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  Speaker 2: to succumber what we call deaths of despair justin here
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  Speaker 2: in this country, and that's either to suicide directly or
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  Speaker 2: death related to alcohol or drugs. And unfortunately have seen
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  Speaker 2: a big spike in recent years in these deaths of
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  Speaker 2: his parents focused among men who are either never married
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  Speaker 2: or who are divorced. So the point I make is
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  Speaker 2: that for most guys, marriage and fatherhood are hathways to
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  Speaker 2: more prosperity and greater happiness.
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  Speaker 1: It sounds like it's an antidote to loneliness as well,
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  Speaker 1: so long as the relationship is healthy.
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  Speaker 2: Of course, exactly, that's right.
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  Speaker 1: Let's talk about the benefits to women. This is an
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  Speaker 1: area where feminists will quite often argue against marriage and
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  Speaker 1: say this is a ball and chain for a woman.
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  Speaker 1: They essentially sign up to be the mother of their
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  Speaker 1: children as well as the mother of the man that
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  Speaker 1: they've married. They become the cook and the cleaner and
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  Speaker 1: all that kind of thing. What does research show in
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  Speaker 1: terms of marital benefits for females.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we have seen a lot of articles and
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  Speaker 2: this is like the New York Times, you know, New
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  Speaker 2: York magazine that are kind of bringing marriage especially sort
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  Speaker 2: of arguing that it's a bad deal for women. And
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  Speaker 2: we're now seeing, at least in the United States, kind
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  Speaker 2: of polling that tells us that both men and especially women,
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  Speaker 2: especially younger women, think that both marriage and motherhood are
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  Speaker 2: not pathways towards happiness. And yet again, when you look
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  Speaker 2: at the data, what you see is that married moms,
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  Speaker 2: among them eighteen fifty five demographic, are the happiest women,
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  Speaker 2: particularly thirty five to fifty five demographic, you know, as
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  Speaker 2: they've gotten the kids out out of diapersion the like,
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  Speaker 2: so as difficult, you know, and as challenging and a
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  Speaker 2: sort of hair pulling kids can be for us, especially,
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  Speaker 2: I think for moms oftentimes, the meaning the sense of
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  Speaker 2: joy that comes from, you know, watching a child take
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  Speaker 2: a first step, when the spelling be at school, score
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  Speaker 2: a goal on the soccer field, attend church, you know,
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  Speaker 2: with your with your kids, you know, first commedian whatever
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  Speaker 2: it might be. These, you know things are so meaningful
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  Speaker 2: for women. And so we see that women are married
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  Speaker 2: with kids, are you know about twice as likely to
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  Speaker 2: be very happy with their lives compared to their unmarried
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  Speaker 2: female peers, and so a lot of I think the
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  Speaker 2: press around marriage and mother is kind of not telling
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  Speaker 2: the truth about the way in which, because we are
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  Speaker 2: hardwired to connect, having the benefit of a spouse and
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  Speaker 2: kids ends up being good not just for guys, but
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  Speaker 2: also for gals.
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  Speaker 1: Bret Wilcox is the author of Get Married, Why Americans
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  Speaker 1: mustify the elites, forward, strong families, and save civilization. Brad
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  Speaker 1: has been an absolute delight to talk with you about
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  Speaker 1: your provocative book, the ideas and data that you've shared there,
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  Speaker 1: and the insights that can help us to have stronger communities,
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  Speaker 1: stronger families, and higher well being. Thanks much for joining
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  Speaker 1: me on the Happy Families Podcast.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Thanks Justin, a pleasure to be with you here today.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: The Happy Families Podcast is produced by Justin Roland from
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer. For more
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: information about how you can make your family happier, please
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: visit Happy families dot com dot au, and in our
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: show notes we will link to Get Married by Brad
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: Wilcox so that we can help you to build your
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: relationship stronger