Latest / Better Preaching Podcast / BP2 Season 2 Episode 3 – The Better Preaching Prof | Dr. Daniel Overdorf
Transcript
- Dr. Frank Weller: Доктор Денел Овердоф, валко де Бете Причин подкаст. Daniel: Thank you so much. I'm ⁓ very honored to be here and excited ⁓ to talk about preaching. Dr. Frank Weller: Daniel, we're doing something new with the podcast. We're interviewing preaching professors. And I know that before you became president of Johnson University, you taught homiletics for a long time, and that's something you're still doing, isn't it? Daniel: I am, yeah. So I've I've been teaching this last year was l year twenty one of ⁓ of teaching preaching and ⁓ and I do still continue to teach ⁓ I teach a class each semester, ⁓ even after beginning to serve as as president. So ⁓ so yeah, I've been at it been at it for a little while. Dr. Frank Weller: And you studied preaching both as an undergraduate and in seminary and a graduate school. Who were some of those professors that really had an impact on you as as a preacher? Daniel: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, ⁓ as far as professors that I, you know, had in class when I was an undergraduate ⁓ here at Johnson, ⁓ David Enyart was my ⁓ primary preaching prof and a good man. He's he's retired now. ⁓ but learned learned a great deal from him. And I'd say from him, I learned a lot just about ⁓ creativity in preaching and narrative and story. master's level, I was at Lincoln Christian Seminary and studied under Wayne Shaw and Wayne ⁓ some some of our guest I'm sure know of Wayne, but ⁓ I just the heart, the passion that that that Wayne brought to the task. He ⁓ you know, I remember Wayne saying, You gotta you gotta you gotta have a fire in your gizzard, he he would say. You gotta have ⁓ you gotta have that passion in you and ⁓ learn so much from him. And then I did my D Men in in preaching at ⁓ Gordon Conwell with with Haddon Robinson. And ⁓ when it just comes to Dr. Frank Weller: I mean, that's the guy that wrote the book, Haddon Robinson. Daniel: He he did, yeah, absolutely. ⁓ and just when it com when it comes to actual homiletics, when it comes to preaching theory, method, I I I I just feel like I learned a ton, just learned so much from ⁓ from him. And it was ⁓ it's kind of a cohort model study so where we're basically he he led us through the whole, you know, four or five years of it. He would bring in other people, but we were with our cohort with him, you know, through the whole experience and ⁓ Just phenomenal, just phenomenal experience. Dr. Frank Weller: What was he like? I mean, ⁓ you know, you read a book from from an expositor and homilitian like Hadden Robinson and you get a sense that he's brilliant, but to be in the room with him and spend time with him must have been sort of next level. Daniel: Right. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I it was and brilliant is is I I probably choose choo choose two words. One would be brilliant. ⁓ the way that his mind worked, ⁓ as far as communication and homiletics and even even ⁓ exegesis, ⁓ just just phenomenal. second word I would use would be pastoral. ⁓ he ⁓ really just had a the the relationship that he had with his students was was significant and warm. ⁓ And and I when I was with him, he he knew that he was nearing the end of his teaching career and and really had a heart to to pass along ⁓ you know, just that that heart for preaching and especially biblical preaching, expository preaching, to to pass that on to the next generation. And so he you know, I think especially in the latter years, ⁓ the the the relationships with the students meant a lot to him because he kind of saw that as him passing the baton, you know. Dr. Frank Weller: I think it's interesting. I know that while you didn't study with him, at least I don't think you did, you you also mentioned that Fred Craddock is a f formative preacher for you. And could you get two different people than Hadon Robinson and Fred Craddock? Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ my goodness. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. There's ⁓ very different in in a lot of ways. Yeah, and Craddock I never never had him in class, but as far as influences ⁓ is also a huge influence for me. But see he's a Johnson University graduate. ⁓ he's from here. Right, right. Yeah, he graduated from here. after he graduated, he went to Phillips and did his masters and then came back and taught. So he also taught here. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I think most people don't realise that. He's a Johnson boy. Daniel: And ⁓ because this is kind of like the mid to late nineteen fifties. And ⁓ then he left here to get his PhD and then went elsewhere. But ⁓ but yes, we we've got got a pretty deep connection with ⁓ with Dr. Craddock. and ⁓ yeah, and so I I I I you know as far as preachers that I listened to and if I you know if I ever had chance to go to a Craddock workshop. ⁓ and we of course had him on campus ⁓ several times. ⁓ and so his ⁓ again very different from Robinson in a lot of ways. ⁓ although much of it honestly the the just the the ability to communicate and the ability to formulate ⁓ formulate ideas in a way that communicates effectively. you know, Craddock and Robinson had some had some things in common along those lines. But of course with Craddock you get a lot of the inductive thought, the narrative flow, wordsmithing. I mean, ⁓ my goodness, the the way Craddock could ⁓ turn a phrase ⁓ in preaching, just learn learn so much from him. Dr. Frank Weller: One of the things I learned from Fred Craddock was his idea of writing down one page, a one page sermon illustration. And I used to do that when I taught homiletics with my advanced homiletics students. I'd say, look, you gotta give me one page of a sermon illustration, one page only, and we'd talk about density and ⁓ the impact that a good illustration could have. That that was all Fred Craddock. Daniel: Yes. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ huh. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. ⁓ it was. Yeah, I've got a a workshop of his that I show students and and he does that little that that piece on the one page. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I showed that that video. Yeah, yeah. ⁓ were we really? That's that's fantastic. Yeah, but I show that I show that workshop to students and ⁓ just to give ⁓ a sense of radically that. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, from the North American Christian Convention. ⁓ yeah. Daniel, we were in the room together. Yeah. Yeah, you s I ironically, you see the CDs that are over my left shoulder. Those are of that workshop. Those are the Craddock Workshop at the North American Christian Convention. And and don't be surprised if they make an appearance on the Better Preaching podcast at some point. Cause this is so, so good. Daniel: Yes. Uhhuh. That's that's great. That's great. ⁓ They deserve it. There's all the wisdom in that that series of workshops that he did. Yeah. Yeah, and we we actually ⁓ just started we have a Fred Craddock Center of Preaching Excellence. ⁓ came was funded by a Lilly Grant and ⁓ yeah, we're we're just a year or two into that. But it's we we're actually housing a lot of his stuff. A lot of ⁓ his family gave us his library, so all of his files. We've got all his amazing handwritten sermons and letters and Dr. Frank Weller: ⁓ that's amazing. Daniel: you know, manuscripts of what would become his books. It's pretty pretty incredible, ⁓ what what we've what we have. So yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Daniel, in the time you've been preaching homiletics obviously it's changed, but what would you say has remained the same and what would you say has changed in the years since you began teaching homiletics? Daniel: Yeah. yeah, boy, that's a great question. I I guess I'll start with some things that have have changed. ⁓ so I started teaching well twenty-one years ago, so two thousand five, ⁓ fall of ⁓ five was my first semester of ⁓ of teaching. And you know, I compare then to now and of course technology has changed a great deal. And ⁓ the way that both the way that technology impacts our preparation and our presentation in in preaching. ⁓ the resources that are available electronically now. ⁓ and so so you know it used to be we we tried to try to help students find you got you gotta find material, you gotta find help and and it was, you know, where can I find this stuff? Now there's so much. Now it's just a matter of sorting through. There's so much research and so much material out there that's at your fingertips. ⁓ now the trick is more how do you help sort of students sort through what's legitimate and ⁓ what's reliable and what's gonna be most useful. ⁓ but then also the presentation because you know it it you know, even something as simple as using PowerPoint to using video to using any other technology that you bring into the presentation of the message. So that's certainly changed in ⁓ you know in twenty one years. ⁓ I you know and I would say too biblical literacy I do think has declined. ⁓ we have to start at a more basic level now with students than we did twenty years ago. w we get ⁓ there, but but it's you know, I I kinda realized maybe four or five, six years ago, okay, w we do need to step back and ⁓ maybe even start a little more basic and more foundational as as we teach students. So I do I teach the we do three levels of it and ⁓ I I teach the first level is is where I've kind of Dr. Frank Weller: So are you teaching elementary homilitics then? Daniel: I I did before I became president, I taught the first two levels. but since I'm just now teaching that first level. That's my favorite one. I just I love working through the foundations, the basics of ⁓ of preaching. So ⁓ that's where I've honed in. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: I would imagine that since becoming president and what's that been about a year and a half? Daniel: ⁓ yeah, coming up on two. ⁓ July first will be two years. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: ⁓ yeah, so it I got news for you, Daniel. July first was yesterday. Happy anniversary. Daniel: ⁓ yeah, that's right. That's right. Yeah, thanks. I didn't do anything to celebrate. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. ⁓ my goodness. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: I know exactly what you mean. The the clock of the presidency moves slowly and so you're thinking, Well, you know, way, way out there in July, ⁓ wait a minute, that was yesterday. ⁓ Daniel: ⁓ that's right. ⁓ That's that's funny. I didn't ⁓ I didn't even go out to eat or anything. I didn't celebrate. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I'm gonna make some phone calls. ⁓ you know, I'm gonna call our our friend Marvin Elliott and say, listen, what's the deal, man? You didn't take Yeah, that's right. He should have taken you to lunch. I'll get on him. Well, if I were in ⁓ I'm a freshman now and I'm going to ⁓ enroll in your introductory homiletics course, what's the what what should I expect to learn there? Daniel: I know. Yeah, that's why somebody should have taken me to watch, I I would think. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ you know, it is it is ⁓ it is the basics, the foundations. ⁓ I I don't spend much time in that course on you know, history of preaching, philosophy of preaching. We do a little bit on theology preaching. We we do more of that when we get to the second level. The first level, honestly, it is just near the beginning of the semester I assign the students a text ⁓ and they all you know, all a different text. And ⁓ and then I walk them through the process of researching and then writing and then preaching a sermon on that text. And the last you know, the last third of the semester or so that they're actually preaching it ⁓ in in class. So it's ⁓ yeah, it it's we take that text. I actually actually take them to the library. ⁓ and ⁓ some of them I have to give directions. They don't I haven't been to the library yet. But we got and I so so that I can look over their shoulder while they research and you know, help them find good resources and make sure that they're really digging into their text. Then we ⁓ you know, we've got that research assembled, then we work on, you know, how do you hone this down into one that one big idea, Haddon Robinson, that one big idea. And and then how do you develop that? And then we work through illustrations and applications and all of that. So it really and I tell in the beginning of ⁓ the the very first day of class that this is it's really more of a skills based class than it is a philosophy of class. that I'm so I'm gonna teach you how to do something. I'm gonna teach you how to how to take a text and write a sermon from it and and preach it. Dr. Frank Weller: Sounds like you have ⁓ a predilection towards expository preaching as opposed to topical preaching. Daniel: Yeah, for sure. And we give them some exposure to topical preaching and and I I you know, I tell ⁓ that ⁓ you know, when when you're in ministry week in, week out, there are times when it's appropriate for sure to to do something topical. But but I feel like, you know, eight eighty percent maybe of preaching, I i in in my opinion, you know, I I'd I'd like to see eighty percent of it being driven by a a text that that you dig into. I just feel like in the long term, over you know, over the long haul. That's how we best serve our churches, ⁓ grounding them in the text. ⁓ and and through that God addresses needs, God speaks to where they are, but it's but it's based in text. So that's that's where I push. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I agree. I agree. And do you do you find yourself leaning towards deductive sermons versus inductive sermons? Daniel: Y you know, ⁓ not as much as you might think. Some sometimes when we think expository, ⁓ we maybe think of a sermon form, you know, that it's it's the the form that is verse by verse deductive through the text. ⁓ I I tend to go, and this was Robinson's definition too, that it really has to do more with just the the authority of the text over the sermon, regardless of the form. So inductive, deductive, narrative, various things can still be expository. But the question is, is it driven by the text? And so so a lot of my preaching, I I do honestly, my own sermons probably tend to be a little more inductive than deductive, but still driven by the text and and clear. ⁓ sometimes the way some have taken inductive preaching, and this will be more creditic-esque, ⁓ it it you know it's it's it's ⁓ sometimes a little vague, sometimes hard to figure out exactly where it's going. And that's not really what I teach and what I do. I I really appreciate it. appreciate clarity and inductive just means you're getting your thesis at the end. It just means we're we're leading up to that one big idea at the end. But but I still push students toward toward clarity, ⁓ in that text driven and and clear to reach that big idea. Dr. Frank Weller: Think when students first start preaching and studying preaching, they sometimes miss just how clear scripture can be if one uses it as the outline. And what I would tell my students is, you need to roll around in the text like a bee rolls around in the flower until it's just covered with pollen. And as you explore the text and just allow it to in influence you and Daniel: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: and in infuse your life, the the deeper you go in the text, the more vibrant and alive I think the the thesis becomes. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, that that is absolutely, ⁓ absolutely the case. The the temptation is, and I'll and again I'll I'll tell students this, even early in the semester when I assign them the text, ⁓ I'll tell them like you're gonna look at this and your mind's gonna begin thinking about your sermon. They don't I say don't do that yet. ⁓ at first take take off the homiletics hat and just put on your exegesis hat 'cause that your your first job is to dig into ⁓ immerse yourself in this this text. ⁓ And then later we'll think about how do we preach a sermon from it. ⁓ but but but job one is is it is yeah, I I love that bee in the flower image. ⁓ that we're so immersed in it that it becomes we're wrapped up in it, it becomes a part of us. Dr. Frank Weller: Otherwise, the temptation is that we come up with that one big idea really before we come up with the sermon. Daniel: Right. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. ⁓ or even come up, you know, even the illustrations and applications. ⁓ you know, we we we know what we want to say and what we want to tell people to do. And then ⁓ maybe we can force that onto this text. And ⁓ yeah, and it's it in the end there there's there's always in the preparation, there's always that point of temptation of bending the text to my ideas. And and the reverse is what needs to happen. We we bend our ideas to the text. ⁓ Dr. Frank Weller: But it's what what you're describing is a lot harder. The work is more difficult. Daniel: Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, you can you can throw a few stories on the paper and and ⁓ you know, a few illustrations and couple comments about the text and and and but you're staying so surface level. ⁓ to me the the depth and the impact, ⁓ the impact comes when we when we really unleash the power of the text in in the sermon, which takes work. Dr. Frank Weller: I love you saying that. I I think it is having a eureka moment, really. You you've spent time in the text, you've looked at you've done your exegesis, you've looked at what others are saying about it, you've gone to the original languages, and then this thesis begins to bubble up from it, and then you have this eureka moment. That's what it is. Daniel: Yeah, just got to have the two packages and Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And that's the and that's that's the one of the most rewarding moments I think in in the whole process when you have that Eureka moment. And ⁓ now for for preachers who are preaching week in and week out, you know, it it's it's frightening when that moment doesn't come until Saturday. You you're you're working through Tuesday with Dr. Frank Weller: ⁓ I know, it is terrifying. And and then even when the moment comes and you get a sense that it's not articulate enough. And so now you're trying to condense it so that it has density. What I would tell my students is, ⁓ if I throw a marshmallow at you and it hits you, no big deal. If I choose a rock that's the same size and I throw that at you, it's gonna have an impact. Daniel: Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: And so for us, the challenge then after we have that thesis, that one big idea, or ⁓ I for ⁓ Billy Stroudher used to call it the one simple positive declarative statement. Right? The one simple positive declarative statement then is to make sure that that's dense enough so that it and sticky enough so that the listeners can walk away with it resonating in their hearts and and allow it to marinate all week long. Daniel: Mm-hmm. Mm. Yeah. Yeah. Is it is it fair to stay? Yeah, but Yeah, that that's exactly right. It's I've heard somebody say, Is it you know, number one, is it memorable, but number two, is it worth remembering? ⁓ is is this is this something that ⁓ that has significance to it and depth to it? Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: ⁓ that's great. Yeah, that's fantastic. ⁓ what textbooks are you using right now in your course and and why have you chosen those? Daniel: for for my course, again, I'm that first level course. I'm I'm kind of embarrassed to say this, but I I use my own. I use I I used ⁓ Robinson for years, biblical preaching, which is a classic, and I am am sold on his approach and his philosophy. ⁓ what I found was it it it was written more for seminary level than for college freshman level, ⁓ which is true of a lot of ministry and and preaching textbooks, because most Dr. Frank Weller: Well, there you go. Daniel: ⁓ in in our tradition, we we do a lot of ministry training at the undergraduate level. Most other traditions do it at the graduate level. So ⁓ so I found a lot of these textbooks, including Robinson, I think was really written more for seminary level. And I found myself having to explain too much, you know, ⁓ to these college freshmen and sophomores. So so I the a book that I wrote just a few years ago is called Preaching. It's ⁓ a simple approach to the sacred task. And it ⁓ and and un I say this in the introduction, so unashamedly. ⁓ it's very influenced by Robinson, by Craddock, by Tom Long, by others. ⁓ but my goal in it was to make it to to put it in the language and at the level of a college freshman and sophomore. ⁓ to to take a little you know, similar theory, similar approach, ⁓ as Robinson and others, but ⁓ but but you know written written at a more foundational level. So that's the one that I use. And ⁓ it walks, you know, as a lot of books do, it walks through eight stages of of ⁓ preparing a sermon and so kind of build the semester around those eight stages, ⁓ helping students prepare their sermons. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, I'm sad to say I haven't seen it. I'll take a look at that and we'll put a link to it in our show notes so that the better preaching listeners ⁓ can find it. You you ⁓ mentioned Tom Long. What's his contribution to your textbook and to the field of preaching? Daniel: Thank you. Sure, thank you. Yeah. You know, long I of course he's who follow Craddock at Candler School of Theology down down in Emory. And his his book on the witness of preaching, which is several you know, it's it's it's ⁓ it's an older book now, but in my early development it was one of those that was helpful for me, kind of you know, a lot of Eureka moments as as I read through his. And ⁓ Then we ⁓ we actually had him on campus here to do some preaching workshops. And ⁓ the first book that I wrote on preaching several years ago was specifically about application. It's called Applying the Sermon. And I interviewed Long, ⁓ interviewed a few people in it, and Long's one the people I interviewed. And ⁓ and I just I appreciate his ⁓ I think I think I think Long brings some good things to the table on sermon structure. and and also on ⁓ he's done some good work on the impact of the literary genre of a text on a sermon. ⁓ he's done some good writing on that. So ⁓ so I've I've just he's just one of those I've always appreciated. Dr. Frank Weller: You mentioned application. I'd like to to to drill down on that just a little bit because I think so often when when we have rolled around in the text and we've done the exegesis and it becomes the the the text becomes something that we have a relationship with, it can be very easy just to preach the text and then assume the application. Although j they're just gonna get this. Well Daniel: Mm-hmm. Sure. Yeah. Yeah. Right, right. Dr. Frank Weller: the the the listeners haven't spent the kind of time with the text that you and I have. And so ⁓ implicit application often is no application at all, isn't it? Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I I agree on that. And there and there actually, you know, there's some there's been some debate in that over the years. ⁓ some who take a more Karl Bart approach and and disciples of his ⁓ say you just you just put the text out there and then God does the work. You know, that application is the work of the spirit. Our job is just to get the text out there. but I see so much in scripture. I I see so much in scripture where the the the the indicative imperative. Pattern, you know, the the the truth, the application of it, happened so much in scripture ⁓ that you know, even Ten Commandments that starts with truth. God says, I I am I'm I'm your God. I'm the one who led you out of Egypt. This is who I am. Now therefore, you know, don't worship any other gods and make no graven images and so forth. And that pattern is all throughout scripture. And so I I feel like it's biblical. ⁓ and then also I just feel like from just from experience. ⁓ that that if that that I think part of our job as preachers is to help people envision how is my life different if I take this text seriously. And ⁓ I I find application ⁓ is most effective when it's when it's detailed. ⁓ and I'll just say broad, you know. ⁓ you know we we need to go evangelize our neighbors. Amen. Sit down, you know. No, let help me picture what that looks like in my life. ⁓ when I'm at work tomorrow and There's somebody in the next cubicle who doesn't know Jesus. What does this look like? ⁓ how how do I, you know, be a witness to my faith in that situation? When I go to the family reunion next month and there's that, you know, my cousin who I know I'm gonna see and we're gonna catch up, who I know isn't following Jesus. How how do I be a witness? So I think in our sermons we we we we w we don't just stay broad. We we help people envision. ⁓ Don Sanukian, who's out at Talbot by OLA, ⁓ you know, he said, We got We we gotta help them have a video running in their head. ⁓ we gotta get that video going so they they can see ⁓ what does it look like if I if I do what this text teaches me to do. So yeah, so I I I application has always been at ⁓ in in my heart for preaching, ⁓ that we do it well. That we number one, do it biblically, and I appreciate how you said it. It it's after we've wallowed around in that text, immerse ourselves in that text, because it's gotta be biblically based. ⁓ But then we've got to challenge ourselves and our listeners to to really consider what do I what do we do differently. I quote a Tom Tom Long again. He said he he said we need to ask ourselves, what do I think, feel, or do differently if if I obey this text. Some of it's on the thinking level, some of it's on the emotion level, some of it's on the action level. But what do I think, feel, or do differently because of what what this text teaches me. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, I think w the model that I learned with was exposition, illustration, application. ⁓ I think it was Bob Russell who said that the more effective model is exposition, illustration, and then illustrate the application. And I think you're right. When you say at the family reunion next month, when you see your cousin, boy, that i instantly brings to mind a name, an an actual person. Daniel: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Right. Dr. Frank Weller: And even if the individual who's listening to your sermon doesn't have a specific cousin in mind, the more detail that we give them in the application, the more it it sparks the creative center of their brain and and people begin to think about individuals that might not be related to the specific application, but it just it does something creatively to the to the listener. Daniel: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah, that that's exactly right. 'Cause the critique of what I just taught was, Well, yeah, what if they're not going to a family reunion next month? Well, but but but when you get detailed like that, that makes people think. Well well, I don't have a cousin, but I've got this neighbor, or I've you know, I've got this situation or ⁓ but it when you're detailed like that it it it gets it gets the wheels turning in their mind, which is what we're after. Dr. Frank Weller: Yeah, that's right. It's hard to believe, Daniel, how fast a half an hour can go. ⁓ but we're we're nearing the end of our half hour together. ⁓ so I wanna I wanna ask you this question. Because many of the listeners of the Better Preaching podcast are farther away from their elementary homiletics course than we might think. So you get preachers at the beginning of their career. Sometimes it's helpful when Daniel: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's okay. Yeah. Dr. Frank Weller: For preachers who've been at it a long time to go back and revisit some of the core principles that they learned in their homiletics courses. So ⁓ I guess here's my question for you. What are some of those principles that you think are important for guys who've been at it a while? If you could pull together guys who've been preaching 10, 15, 20 years and say, let's go back to the basics and revisit those. If you had them all in a room, what would you say to them? Daniel: Yeah, that's that's a great question. and I did it I did a workshop somewhere a while back. I can't remember where it was. But they asked me basic basically that. And ⁓ so I titled the workshop something like ⁓ Preaching Principles I Forgot Too Soon or or d you know, that I neglected too soon, maybe. And and and so I thought about, you know, even my own preaching. I I know what I learned in class, but then as I ⁓ you know, continued in my ministry What are maybe some principles that I neglected that I shouldn't have? And ⁓ yeah, and to me it it's ⁓ some of the things we talked about, one of the big things to me is still the power of the text. When I think about my own preaching, there's certainly a a a time and era where yeah, I I I just I brush past the text too quickly. I I rely too much on, you know, my own creativity, my own maybe skills that I'd been developing, ⁓ even my own passions, which which are all good and all do come into play. ⁓ but they're secondary to the text. And so I would remind those preachers, ⁓ don't don't brush past that text. On ⁓ you know, if you're if you're if you're on a Monday to Friday schedule, spend Monday and Tuesday just in the text and and be an exegene. And then about Wednesday put on the put on the homiletics hat and and then begin to figure out how to preach it. So ⁓ so I think that ⁓ I would go back to clarity, which I mentioned earlier too. I I I I listen to a lot more sermons than I preach right right now in in my life. And ⁓ especially when I've got you know, students preaching in class and chapel and so forth. and as a listener, I I can tell you how much I appreciate clarity. I just that I that I know where you're going. sometimes especially those who maybe have an artistic bent or a poetic bent, may feel like they're gonna get very creative and artistic with it and And we don't realize that we might have lost our listeners two minutes in, you know. And that they're they're they're looking at their watch and they're making their shopping list on their phone. ⁓ so I I've I I try to remind preachers that clarity really, really is helpful and really does, you know, r it really does matter. You know, I think I'd also I think a third thing I'd mention is don't neglect the power of story. ⁓ I actually just had this conversation with a a a friend of mine who's little older than me, so he's probably been preaching for thirty years now, maybe forty years. And and he said he's he's kind of come back to this. He he said he said, I I realized in the last few years of my preaching that I'd kind of neglected the power of story. ⁓ and I'm talking here mostly about illustrations, that when we give ⁓ you know give listeners pictures of this and ⁓ and and I agree with that. I I think ⁓ Calvin Miller used to say that we We hear with words, but we remember in pictures. And I think there's some real truth to that. ⁓ and so he says, Does your sermon have enough pictures in it to to be memorable? And and he's talking there about, you know, the the power of story and the images we build in people's minds. So ⁓ so I would remind preachers, you know, don't don't don't don't forget the the power of telling telling a good story and and how that helps helps bring your message home, the truth of the text home. Dr. Frank Weller: Mm-hmm. Thank you, Daniel. yeah, just ⁓ loved having you on. I'd love to have you back some other time and we'll go even deeper. Daniel: Yeah, you're welcome. Love to. Yeah. Yeah, would love to. I I again I'm honored to to to do this and appreciate the invitation. Dr. Frank Weller: Well, Daniel Overdorf is the president of Johnson University, where he taught homiletics for over two decades. ⁓ we'll put a link to his book, Preaching, in the show notes, as well as a link to Johnson University in the show notes. Just want to remind our Better Preaching Podcast listeners that BP2 is powered by Great Lakes Christian College, where we are training the next generation of servant leaders for the church and world. You find all the details about Great Lakes Christian College on the website at glcc.edu. ⁓ Until next time, remember that Better preaching makes a bigger impact.