Latest / Real Crime with Adam Shand / Bali, Terrorism and the Thai Cave Rescue: Glen McEwen’s Story

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Bali, Terrorism and the Thai Cave Rescue: Glen McEwen’s Story · Real Crime with Adam Shand

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Appoche production.
• 0:15
  Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shann. I'm your host
• 0:17
  Speaker 2: Adam Shann. Federal policing had its origins in November nineteen seventeen,
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: when Queensland Police refused to follow Prime Minister Billy Hughes's
• 0:25
  Speaker 2: orders while he was in the state campaigning for military conscription.
• 0:29
  Speaker 2: Protesters had bombarded the PM with eggs at Warwick railway station,
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: and to add insult to injury, the Queensland Police refused
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: to arrest the offenders under federal law. Hughes created the
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: Commonwealth Police Force after the Warwick incident, the first time
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: the Australian government recognized it needed a federal law enforcement agency.
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: It lasted only two.
• 0:49
  Speaker 2: Years and there were various entities that covered crime nationally
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: after that. It wasn't until nineteen seventy nine, after the
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: Hilton bombing that a single enduring federal law enforcement agency
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: was created from the Commonwealth Police, the act Police and
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: the Narcotics b He to form the AFP in nineteen
• 1:07
  Speaker 2: seventy nine. The AFP's remit includes international organized crime, community
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: policing to tearing and prosecuting terrorists, international peacekeeping and bringing
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: financial and child exploitation offenders to justice. My guest today
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: served in many of those functions with distinction, probably more.
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: Actually. Glenn McEwan retired from.
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: The AFP in twenty twenty two and has written a
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: book about his career crime, chaos and controversy, from global
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: crime syndicates to terror attacks, which will be released in October.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: It's my pleasure to welcome Glenn to Real CRIMEA Glenn.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: Get a Adam? How are you?
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Absolutely? We all mate? Listen.
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: You're the first AFP officer retired or serving to come
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: on Real Crime, so that's some kind of first and
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: it's absolute pleasure to have you.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: Why did you join the AFP?
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: Well, that's yeah, interesting story. Basically, as a child it
• 2:02
  Speaker 4: was a dream. I was playing cops and robbers since
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: I can remember watching all the crime shows back in
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: the early seventies Mattlocke Police Homicide Division four and just
• 2:17
  Speaker 4: a lifelong dream. And as I become older, I become
• 2:21
  Speaker 4: fascinated with true crime books with authors such as Evan
• 2:25
  Speaker 4: Witten with Cans of Worms, Prince and The Premier, and
• 2:28
  Speaker 4: just become fascinated about organized crime having grown up in Sydney, Yeah,
• 2:33
  Speaker 4: very much fascinated about Lenny McPherson, George Freeman, Stan Smith
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: and A light.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Now all the shows you mentioned Matt Locke VV four
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: homicide was state police force.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Why not join the Stadies?
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Well, interesting question as well.
• 2:50
  Speaker 4: I applied for both New South Wales and the Australian
• 2:53
  Speaker 4: Federal Police. The Australian Federal Police came to my attention.
• 2:58
  Speaker 4: My uncle worked for the Australian Federal Police when he
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: joined in nineteen seventy four was the act Police and
• 3:05
  Speaker 4: as you mentioned in your introduction, there was an amalgamation
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: in nineteen seventy nine and I was heading my bets.
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: But I progressed to the final stages in both and
• 3:17
  Speaker 4: there was a real sense in my heart that the
• 3:20
  Speaker 4: research I did that the AFP through again some books
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: that I had read during into these sort of early
• 3:27
  Speaker 4: eighties to mid eighties, so that was about nineteen eighty
• 3:31
  Speaker 4: five eighty six that they were concentrating on organized crime
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: and that was where my passion was. So yeah, I
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: rolled the dice and chose the AFP, and fortunately enough
• 3:44
  Speaker 4: I found my calling and was successful. And that's where
• 3:48
  Speaker 4: I ended up into organized crime very early on in
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: my career and beyond.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Because the AFP in that form was only around for
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: about eight years when you joined up. What was it
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: like back in those.
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: Days, Well, a whole lot different than it is today.
• 4:06
  Speaker 4: We only had two arms. Really, there was the Act
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: Policing Arm and then there was the National Arm. The
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: National Arm was very underfunded, very small, focusing on drug investigations,
• 4:21
  Speaker 4: fraud intelligence, and then there was a small arm looking
• 4:26
  Speaker 4: at family law and static protective services including the airport.
• 4:32
  Speaker 4: So we had to rotate through all those areas before
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: we found our more permanent positions.
• 4:40
  Speaker 3: And I was.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: Fortunate enough in nineteen eighty eight to be part of
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: the Broader Drug Squad as it was known back then.
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: Right, Because let's get this out of the way.
• 4:50
  Speaker 2: Early on, a lot of rivalry between state police officers
• 4:55
  Speaker 2: and the Feds. To what do you put that down to?
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: I mean, the state guys always to ride. The Feds
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: are the plastics, and you guys call them the perspexes
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: and all this sort of stuff tell us a bit
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: about that rivalry.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: Well, I understand the rivalry way back when we were
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: a fledging police force, and I don't really understand why
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: it still exists today because the old Guard had sort
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: of moved on and I was the younger guard and
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: now I've moved on. It still continues. Sometimes it's healthy.
• 5:24
  Speaker 4: I get that. It's like state of origin in rugby
• 5:27
  Speaker 4: league or in AFL terms, when you've got Victoria of
• 5:32
  Speaker 4: WA and South Australia. I understand that when it's healthy.
• 5:35
  Speaker 4: But at times it becomes quite unhealthy, and I don't
• 5:38
  Speaker 4: really understand why that is. We all have a role
• 5:42
  Speaker 4: to play. Crime now is borderless. We now have moved
• 5:48
  Speaker 4: into the joint operational space where we do need to
• 5:53
  Speaker 4: come together because not one agency can do it alone.
• 5:56
  Speaker 4: We do need to put our biases aside and just
• 5:59
  Speaker 4: get the job done for the sake of the community.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: You're still talking about we as I you're still in
• 6:05
  Speaker 2: the job. Is it difficult to separate yourself after thirty
• 6:09
  Speaker 2: five years?
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: Obviously you've picked up that NW and so yes it
• 6:13
  Speaker 4: must be. I try not to use that term anymore,
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: try to do separate myself from the organization. But when
• 6:22
  Speaker 4: you are at the moment, as I am knee deep
• 6:25
  Speaker 4: in the book and going through the final editing stages
• 6:28
  Speaker 4: and reliving those thirty five years, it is hard to
• 6:32
  Speaker 4: separate when I engage with people because people ask me
• 6:37
  Speaker 4: a lot about you know, current issues and stuff. I
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: remove that we to you know, the old firm using
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: a very old vernacular. But yeah, as you've picked up.
• 6:49
  Speaker 4: But it is hard to separate, but I'm getting there.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, well you don't have to really.
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: I think it's great that you still feel at a
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: spread of corps with your current serving colleagues because we
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: talk about that rivalry between the state and the Feds.
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: You guys did the same job, and the memories that
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: stay with you are very similar to anything you'd encounter
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: in a state police force, like, for instance, the Barley bombing.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: You weren't there specially for that, but you ended up
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: on the scene mopping up after the horrific situation there.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: That must be a memory that stays with you in
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: a traumatic way.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 7:25
  Speaker 4: Absolutely. I was deployee to Jakarta. That was my first
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: overseas post. There's a differential between state and federal policing.
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: We again, we have an International Operations Arm within the
• 7:38
  Speaker 4: AFP where people are deployed overseas. So that was my
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: first posting focused on people smuggling, and then myself and
• 7:46
  Speaker 4: Mick Kelsey, who was my partner.
• 7:50
  Speaker 3: Work partner at the time. We were there for two
• 7:52
  Speaker 3: different reasons.
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: I was there for a people smuggling purpose and Mick
• 7:55
  Speaker 4: was there for a drug investigation.
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and we happened to be.
• 7:59
  Speaker 4: Normally we would have been in Pattie's Bar on the
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: night because that was where we would go and have
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: a bier when we'd finished work, and on that particularly
• 8:09
  Speaker 4: Saturday night, we were four hundred meters away for various reasons.
• 8:13
  Speaker 4: And yeah, things happened as they did, and yeah, it
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: was quite traumatic.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 8:19
  Speaker 4: We arrived on the scene and we ended up straight
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: in ground zero, right at the intersection there at Poppy's Lane,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: Dour and Jilan Ligion. And I had to make that
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: assessment and called it into the AFP, gave my description
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: of what my five senses had picked up, made a
• 8:36
  Speaker 4: quick assessment, knowing full well that nine to eleven and
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: only just happened twelve months prior and before all that
• 8:44
  Speaker 4: we saw the carnage. We were assisting people. You know,
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: there's only so much you can do. Gave the briefing,
• 8:51
  Speaker 4: continued to help where we could, and then had to
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: make a strategic call. Being the senior officer for the
• 8:57
  Speaker 4: AFP and a senior officer within the embassy.
• 9:00
  Speaker 3: I had to make a strategic.
• 9:01
  Speaker 4: Call where you know, as we walked, we made our
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: way through Jilan Lygium, passing through the fires and the carnage, and.
• 9:14
  Speaker 3: Met up with the consult General and.
• 9:17
  Speaker 4: Then we went out to the consulate brought in some
• 9:21
  Speaker 4: further assistance. We were fortunate enough that the Australian Defense
• 9:25
  Speaker 4: Force personnel were there for or some of the Defense
• 9:28
  Speaker 4: Force personnel from the embassy were there for rugby tournament.
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: The Deputy Ambassador was there for the same reason. So
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: we came together give it out responsibilities. I asked the
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: ADF members to go to Singlar Hospital to ascertain the
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: extent of the Australian casualties. Mick and I did the
• 9:52
  Speaker 4: consulate duties, putting together the missing per We men the fanes.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: To begin with, the reason we left the area is
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: because the Indonesians were coming in. It was totally uncoordinated.
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know if you've been to Balley Adam, but
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: where Jilan Leghi in this is a one way street.
• 10:10
  Speaker 4: It's always packed with traffic. There are all one way intersections.
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: So for the required first responders to get in there,
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: it was just total Mayhem, so for us to do
• 10:23
  Speaker 4: what we could was quite minimalistic and also it would.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: Have added to the confusion.
• 10:32
  Speaker 4: So we had to decide what was best for the situation,
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: and I made that strategic decision for the Greater Australia
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: good that we had to remove our selves. That already
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: briefed the AFP about expectations of high casualty rate because
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: of the location. So we did extract ourselves, went back
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: to the consulate, did what we could do. On the
• 10:59
  Speaker 4: first break sunlight. Mick and I then returned to ground
• 11:02
  Speaker 4: zero so we could have a better understanding of what
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: we'll confront him with. And then we were I made
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: decisions in relation and what need to be done. The
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: first thing that need to be done was secure the
• 11:13
  Speaker 4: crime scenes. They were being contaminated, they weren't properly secured. Obviously,
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: I was making calls into the AP and also the
• 11:21
  Speaker 4: Indonesian National Police.
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: So traumatic that moment. Two hundred and four people dead,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: including both bombers. Eighty eight Australians perished as well, and
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: I seen of unbelievable carnage and through that you have
• 11:39
  Speaker 2: to remain professional, and I can see that professional language
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: coming back out again, because I'm sure when you close
• 11:46
  Speaker 2: your eyes you can still see those images from that
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: because you were so close and the fact that you
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: would have otherwise been in Paddy's bar, that's got to
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: have some impact on you as a human being.
• 11:59
  Speaker 4: Absolutely, And I buried it for twenty years and I
• 12:07
  Speaker 4: lived through it. Two thousand and two wasn't as an
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: extremely rough year for me. I had my father die
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: and I missed it because I was overseas. I missed
• 12:18
  Speaker 4: him by three hours. I lived in denial. I returned
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: Jakata sixteen days later. I was cleaned up by a
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: two time pantech in Jakarta that left me with major injuries,
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: including three fractured vertebrates. I had to learn to walk again.
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: That was in May of two thousand and two. Again
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: putting the job first, I went back to work too early,
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: didn't really recuperate as best as I could. Then we
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: had Barley, my marriage was falling apart. I had a
• 12:51
  Speaker 4: Channel nine with the Sunday Sunday program back then with Grosscoultard.
• 12:57
  Speaker 4: They did an ex basically on people smuggling, which was
• 13:00
  Speaker 4: sort of against the work that we were doing. And
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: then I had a internal investigation against me, which was
• 13:08
  Speaker 4: all I was found exonerated, but it was an expose
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: about using the informants of which at the time the
• 13:16
  Speaker 4: AP had denied that we did, which was not right.
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: So I resigned my commission or resign my posting in
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: December of two thousand and two because it was this.
• 13:27
  Speaker 3: It was all too much.
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: So, yeah, what a triple or quadruple whammy for you. Yeah,
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: so I'm sure you're do But at the head of
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: all those is that feeling of guilt about missing your
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: father's death because you're putting your country, your job, other people.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Seemingly ahead of that relationship.
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: But I'm sure your dad was very proud of you
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: and would have told you you've got a job to do.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: So absolutely, yeah, absolutely.
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: I lived by dad's advice, which was very simple that
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: it was being a shepherd, not a sheep, and carried
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: me through my whole career. But also it also made me.
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: I lived a checkle and hide life for a very
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: long time, and after retiring, that's when I had to
• 14:17
  Speaker 4: make the decisions, and that's when I went into psychological
• 14:22
  Speaker 4: and psychiatry therapy in two thousand and two.
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: Right, because I'm sure the doctor Jekyll was highly professional,
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: got on with the job, did what had to be done,
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: supported everybody. What was mister Hyde like that alter ego?
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: Not very nice. I'd put a lot of strain on
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: my marriage, my second marriage. My wife is an absolute champion.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: She's living me through thick and thin. Yeah, it's just
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: the irritability and the anger of being able to you know,
• 15:00
  Speaker 4: it just reacts so abruptly and just not nice, very
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: cutting with your responses to the littlest of things. Yeah,
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: and then you know, the treatment to attempt to whine
• 15:17
  Speaker 4: that all back is not pleasn't either when you're going
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: through cognitive behavior therapy and EMT, the the other therapy
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: I went through that's actually gets you to relieve everything
• 15:31
  Speaker 4: over and over and over and trying to incorporate that
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: with calming influences.
• 15:38
  Speaker 3: What the hell, very deep?
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Does that? Did that work for you?
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Yeah? I can now talk.
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: I spoke about Balley, I spoke about my father's death
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: without breaking down. So in that regard, yes, I'm still
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: managing the intolerant side of the house. I'm still not
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: the perfect human being.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: Well, you won't be. You never will be. You got
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: to give yourself a break too. You know.
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: Wild Man was the phsychiatrist, and I think that's what
• 16:07
  Speaker 2: I grew up in this sort of world, you know,
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: discussing this sort of stuff, and I think that was
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: one of his messages.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Never be perfect, I don't thin.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: You've got to be happy with yourself and realize that
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: some of these things that we live and do and
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: their traumers are kind of attachments, you know. And now
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: you're out of the job, you can without any loss
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: of prestige or any other failing let go a bit
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: and I get to I guess it's a bit of
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: turning into a psychotherapy session here.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: It shouldn't be that there's a crime podcast.
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: But yes, notice when you still use the word we
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: as being part of the AFP, that's an indication of
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: that difficulty to separate what you did and what you
• 16:47
  Speaker 2: did with distinction. You've got a string of bloody acronyms
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: after your name. You've done your job right. It's perfectly
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: okay to let go now and be Glenn mckill and
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: citizen author and be very proud.
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: Of your service.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I'm proud of your service when I read your CV,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: and that's a tough one. I'm glad you're putting it
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: together in a book, because that's a great therapy of itself,
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: to be able to make sense of it in a
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: chronological and understand the waiting of things. What's that. You've
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: got a very supportive wife. You should give her a
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: shout out by name by the way here, she'll be listening.
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Christy, Yes, you know, how.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Has she supported you through the writing of the book?
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: Well, giving me space to do it.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: You know, as I mentioned, it was her ideas, so
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: from the get go, I hadn't even thought of it.
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: So encourage me through, you know, when you have, as
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: you would know, writers block, you know, we sit down
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: and talk about particular things.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: Because I knew.
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: Christy forward before we. I met Christine back in Jakarta.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: So she's been part of the story from back in
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: two thousand and one, two thousand, two thousand and one,
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: so she was there when for the car accident, for instance,
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: So from that sort of point onwards. So she's lived
• 18:13
  Speaker 4: a lot of those tales. She's been able to give
• 18:17
  Speaker 4: me those reminders if I've had those blocks, and you know,
• 18:21
  Speaker 4: remember that time and remember that time. So she's been
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: very much a stable force in my life too.
• 18:30
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: It just helped me along with memory and really instills
• 18:34
  Speaker 4: me about always reminding me of out the good times
• 18:37
  Speaker 4: and stop dwelling on the bad.
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, you know. And I think it's I've got to
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: say writer's blocks, bullshit.
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: It is.
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: It's just simply like anything else that's difficult, You've got
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: to get up out of bed and do it. Write
• 18:50
  Speaker 2: those five hundred words, write that thousand words, and there
• 18:53
  Speaker 2: might not be good words, but you've written them.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: And when you get to the end of a book.
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: I remember when I was.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Start I write and written six true crime books and
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: the beginning was really difficult. And someone said to me,
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: go to the bookshelf and get someone else's book, sit
• 19:06
  Speaker 2: down with it and close your eyes, imagine it's your book.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And I did that for over months and months and months,
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: and it really worked, you know, and it was one
• 19:12
  Speaker 2: of the great achievements. And I, you know, and I
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: really so many people come to me and say I'm
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: a copper, I'm a crook or something, and I've got
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: a book in me.
• 19:20
  Speaker 1: I said, no, you've got a story in you. Writing
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: a book is a much and you've done that.
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: You've also written a couple of self published books on
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: leadership and management as well. But you've broken into the
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: professional ranks if you like. The books published by Simon
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: and Schuster, very big publishing house. So congratulations on that
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: as well. What did you learn? I should roll back
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: a bit. Actually, two thousand and two, after all those dramas,
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: you could have walked away from policing. You could have
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: done any number of things or just focused on yourself.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: You went back into policing and continued for another couple
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: of decades.
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: What made you do that?
• 19:58
  Speaker 4: I suppose I had to be the phoenix to rise
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: from the ashes for myself and never let the bases
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: get you down. This was long before, obviously mental health
• 20:11
  Speaker 4: was seen as a real issue. And I just sat
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: down and said, you know, after two thousand and three,
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: because that's when I hit rock bottom and I was
• 20:23
  Speaker 4: still functioning, and it was like take a cup of
• 20:27
  Speaker 4: concrete and harden up, and that's what I did, and
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: then you know, I still you know, by then I
• 20:37
  Speaker 4: was without you know, my kids were very very very young,
• 20:42
  Speaker 4: and they was still with their mother because they were
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: too young to joint custody or anything like that. So
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: again I poured myself into the job. Still enjoyed a drink,
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: which wasn't the greatest pastime, but I enjoyed it, And yeah,
• 20:56
  Speaker 4: it really just got on with the job again, putting
• 20:59
  Speaker 4: the job first. But then obviously I did okay because
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: I got promoted in two thousand and five to superintendent.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: So I just put my nose to the grindstone and
• 21:11
  Speaker 4: just got on with it and continued.
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: Tell me, did you feel like a bit of an
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: impost You're feeling terrible inside yourself and yet you're being
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: promoted into greater responsibility. Did you feel a little bit like, wow,
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: why is this happening to me?
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's always that imposter syndrome in your head, but
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: I suppose that's that checklin hide situation where yeah, it's
• 21:38
  Speaker 4: just at work. I just did what I had to do,
• 21:42
  Speaker 4: and when I was away, I just dealt with the demons.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because on the positive side, having been through a
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: barley bombing, you had a ringside seat to the new
• 21:52
  Speaker 2: era in Australian life. We're terrorism, what's going to be
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: a real thing. We've lived with that threat in lesser
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: a greater degree of ever since. Was there a sense
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: of mission in you about what you could see. The
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: possibilities were ahead.
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: Oh, definitely, the whole picture of crime. It changed.
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: So we had to sort of, you know, get our
• 22:17
  Speaker 4: head out of our ass. For want of a better term, too,
• 22:22
  Speaker 4: we were fighting a different fight when ideology is a
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: part of a fight where it's not for profit, We're dealing
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: with something that people cannot prove. It becomes a whole
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: different mindset, doesn't it. And you know, you really had
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: to be on your game because it's not about a
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: reactive posture.
• 22:42
  Speaker 3: It's a proactive posture.
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: It's a preventative posture, which becomes a whole different way
• 22:48
  Speaker 4: of conducting business.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: Really was. I remember running after the Barley bombing that the.
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: Success of the bombers will be measured in how much
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: they change our way of life, how much we live
• 23:00
  Speaker 2: in fear, in division, hating our neighbors, and the federal
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: police at all. Police were part of that process, going
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: into harm's way on behalf of our community, getting ahead
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: of the threats, understanding the nature of undercurrents in our society.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: And so this was a very important task. And I
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: think the harmony we enjoy in this country today, as
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: fractious as it is at times we should be thanking
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: the efforts of guys like you and your.
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: Colleagues who you know.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: Yes, there had to be a curtailment of certain freedoms,
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: but the way we lived has not changed dramatically, and
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I think that's a win.
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I do agree with that absolutely. It's interesting that
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: our posture didn't really change after nine to eleven because
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: the Australian way is she'll be right mate until it
• 23:56
  Speaker 4: bites us on the ass.
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: And that's what happened in Balley.
• 24:00
  Speaker 4: Not that I'm suggesting that we had any forecasting about it,
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: but it's really a symptom of just the way we
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: operate until it really personally affects us, and then then
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: we go into reactive mode. And then we hold that
• 24:18
  Speaker 4: posture into a proactive mode and preventative mode, you know,
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: as we're finding out now with the or Commission into
• 24:25
  Speaker 4: I love this term social conhesion, any semitism, and social
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: cohesion baffles me. Why, Well, I think there's a more
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: simple term to it. You know, we call it for
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: what it is.
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 24:40
  Speaker 4: Social cohesions are just a nicer term than what we
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: could have called it.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: Really, then, what what's that word? You're searching for.
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: Well, you know, I just think at the end of
• 24:50
  Speaker 4: the day, you know, he could have just left it
• 24:53
  Speaker 4: at any semitism. You know, let's call it for what
• 24:56
  Speaker 4: it is. You didn't need to, you know, sort of
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: broaden it, because really, after what happened in twenty three
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: to what's happen, I don't know where the social cohesion
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: bit really fits into the picture. That's my personal view,
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: and it really look at a whole lot of misgivings
• 25:16
  Speaker 4: and lack of decision making and the information was there, yep.
• 25:22
  Speaker 4: And it's interesting how people are being called and that's lovely.
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: But let's see who if the main decision makers are
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: going to be called, and make it a real royal
• 25:34
  Speaker 4: commission and not something less than it should be, you know,
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: because hindsight's wonderful, you know. But if it was me
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: and my former colleagues, they're all going to be called.
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: You know, let's see if the big wigs get called.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: They never will, my friend, they never will. They always
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: protect themselves, you know, they.
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: Got behaving thing about it.
• 25:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's say, I think over the journey, we've seen
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: policing become very political and often chief commissioners other senior
• 26:03
  Speaker 2: brass are a point on the understanding of political compliance,
• 26:08
  Speaker 2: which I think is extremely frustrating to rank and file
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: officers and I see it time and time again. There's
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: all these conversations about how people feel left high and
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: dry when they're dragged into the Supreme Court or royal
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: commissions and things, and their actions are analyzed in slow motion,
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: excruciating detail, while the people that sent them out there
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: are not held to account. And I think that's part
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: of the I'm sure we've got people out there listening
• 26:32
  Speaker 2: that the strikes accord with this is a factor of
• 26:35
  Speaker 2: people's trauma and getting over their service. Is the feeling
• 26:39
  Speaker 2: of being let down in institutional settings. That's a whole
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: nother podcast. How are we getting into this? If you've
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: driven me off on a tangent here, Glenn Mickilli, Sorry, yeah,
• 26:49
  Speaker 2: And I think these are important topics, and as I say,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: people out there have got an experience I want to
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: hear from you. Actually, but let's go back to your
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: continued service, because you could have left at your rock
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: bottom and done something else and probably regretted it. But
• 27:03
  Speaker 2: also some of your most interesting, engaging and worthwhile service
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: occurred after this tell me what happened after that?
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: Well, after that, yeah, no, I was very fortunate.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: So I was called upon to look at corruption at
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: the highest level. So I instigated the investigation into Mark
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: Standing through his association with James Henry Kinch, So that's one.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: I was asked to.
• 27:36
  Speaker 4: Lead a review and an investigation into the foreman Northern
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: Terretory Police Commissioner John McRoberts. Then I created a shift
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: in the AFP's thought processes in relation to how they
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: conducted their investigations into victim based crime. So I created
• 27:58
  Speaker 4: a command called victim based Crime.
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: Would have come up with it.
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: I actually came up with that name and gave them
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: other suggestions.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: But what that was in.
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: The national sphere, it was quite compartmentalized. And what I
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: mean by victim based crime is crimes against the persons.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: So what I put together was a command was people smuggling,
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: human trafficking, child exploitation, war crimes, everything into the one
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: that impacted on a person. Because majority of the national
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: focus was crimes against the commonwealth outside of counter terrorism.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: To bring that all together, so I created that command.
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: Then I was fortunate enough to get appointed as Commander
• 28:46
  Speaker 4: of Asia. So that put me overseas again, and so
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: I went overseas now Asia in a geographical sense in
• 28:57
  Speaker 4: the AFP's structure, I was based in Beijing and my
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: comma andwent as west as Afghanistan and extend north to Russia,
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: south down to the time Malaysian border, east to Japan
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: and Taiwan, and there I was very fortunate to be
• 29:15
  Speaker 4: mission commander for the tom Long Cave rescue.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: In Thailand, amazing story.
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, another bombing the Sri Lanking East of Sunday bombings
• 29:25
  Speaker 4: in twenty nineteen, and worked very closely in Me and
• 29:28
  Speaker 4: Mar countering the production of crystal methamphetamine in the jungles
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: of Me and Mar, putting together a coalition of the
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: willing using an old military term of policing agencies against
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: a very high level, high value target who was based
• 29:47
  Speaker 4: in Asia, referred to as the El Chabo of Asia.
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: And Yeah, No, had worked a lot. I've referred to
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: as Marco Polo because it pretty much was the geographic
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: expance that Marco Polo traveled in his time.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Did you ever get sick of Asian food?
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: No, not at all. The hotter the better.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: You're referring to the old chapter of Asia see Chi Lop.
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: That's an amazing story. I mean a couple of us
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: in the book, and I don't want to go too
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: deep into it to still get thunder there, but that's
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: an amazing investigation and one that had a big impact
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: on Australia.
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: I think in terms of supply of drugs.
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: Yes, absolutely well.
• 30:33
  Speaker 4: Regionally, our estimation was He and He's conglomerate that was
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: referred to as the Sam Gore Syndicate also known as
• 30:43
  Speaker 4: the Company, supplied up to eighty five percent of the
• 30:47
  Speaker 4: crystal methamphetamine across our region. So we're talking tons. I
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: don't have the figures right in front of me, but
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: I do quote the figures of my time in the
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: region in the book. We're talking massive, massive amounts.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: Right yeah. And the AFP, I mean, I've got to
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: be slightly critical here.
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: The AFP loves to do the show and tells put
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: the drugs on the table, the guns and so forth,
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: and the media dutifully writes these stories. But I've only
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: ever seen the drug problem get worse in Australia, and
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: no matter how big the bust, we always seem to
• 31:25
  Speaker 2: have a new player step up. We are a country
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: with a bottomless appetite for illegal drugs in law enforcement,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: did it sometimes feel pointless catching these characters when another
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: one like whack a Mile puts his head up straight away.
• 31:40
  Speaker 3: Yes, it is like that.
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: But internationally, what I was trying to do is focus
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: on disruption as a viable policing alternative. Now, the reason
• 31:51
  Speaker 4: I was looking at that, and it's also true here
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: in Australia that what I was trying to look at
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: doing internationally, particularly in Asia. And the reason I talk
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: about Asia when I was there, and two it was
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: still greenfields for pioneering.
• 32:09
  Speaker 3: If you try to do it in.
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: The US or the UK or Europe, where they're advanced,
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: they're very set in their ways. You're still able to
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: influence in Asia and try to attempt them to learn
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: from us and get ahead of the game and not
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: these fifteen years behind. And that at times is very
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: difficult because they like as you describe the powder on
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: the table, the guns and do all that. But if
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: I found some like minded people, I try to influence
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: their thinking about disruption. So we were looking at how
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: we could disrupt the production of crystal methamphetamine in the
• 32:49
  Speaker 4: super labs in the jungles of me Omha, and there's
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: a way we could have done that which would take
• 32:56
  Speaker 4: the whack a mole syndrome out of play, and that
• 33:00
  Speaker 4: was looking at try to institute a moratorium of bringing
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: chemics in from China into me and Mar, particularly the
• 33:08
  Speaker 4: northern Shan state, because there's no legitimacy or legitimate reason
• 33:14
  Speaker 4: why chemicals would need to be moved from the border
• 33:18
  Speaker 4: town of Rui in China into Mousei in me and
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: Mar then be transported into the jungles. Now, to me,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: that would have been an extremely successful strategic objective which
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: I did have the support of the meam and Ese.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: But unfortunately timing was against us because it was the
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: end of my tenure, the end of the tenure of
• 33:45
  Speaker 4: Jared Taggert who was the superintendent in Meamar, but more
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: importantly than we had the political overthrow in mea Mar
• 33:55
  Speaker 4: and then COVID nineteen, so everything was against us. But
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: that's just an example of where we can actually make
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: a difference in the disruption space where you're not the
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: whack a mole because you're attacking the production, really attacking
• 34:13
  Speaker 4: it's not just piecemeal band aid stuff. This is where
• 34:18
  Speaker 4: you know if you cut off fat, they can't do anything.
• 34:21
  Speaker 3: But unfortunately it didn't work.
• 34:23
  Speaker 4: But that gives an example of where my thinking was
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: disruption wise, and there's other examples in the book where
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: we were successful in other ways of disruption.
• 34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to do your best with what's in
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: front of you.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: And I think one of the complicating issues to the
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: AFP ever since the Balley nine was getting involved in
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: overseas law enforcement operations where the death penalties on the table.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: Were you mindful of that as you're dealing with those
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: sort of issues.
• 34:50
  Speaker 4: Oh, absolutely, and as you'd appreciate working in the heart
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: of China every day. And see we had a task force.
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: We were the only country and we're the envy of
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: every other country that worked. Then there was third five
• 35:06
  Speaker 4: thirty five other law enforcement agencies that worked in Beijing
• 35:10
  Speaker 4: or vying for the attention of the Chinese, and we
• 35:13
  Speaker 4: were Australia was the AFP was the only agency to
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: have a formal agreement outside of their MOUs which was
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: Task Force Blaze. And every day I'd have a paperwork
• 35:29
  Speaker 4: to work through in relation to the dissemination of intelligence
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: to China under the protocol under the Death penalty guideline protocols,
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: So there was a whole framework to work through to
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: ensure that we met government and also AFP protocols. That
• 35:53
  Speaker 4: was the result of the Ballein nine. Quite a difficult
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: terrain to work through, but we got there.
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: We got there in the end.
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: It's could do with front of you.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: So your last role when you were finishing up was
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: in the cybercrime area, which is such an emerging space
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: for law enforcement, and I think something the community has
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: only a dim understanding of how pervasive it is and
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: how vulnerable our families and children in particular are to
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: the crooks operating in that space.
• 36:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, cybercrime is that was actually twenty twelve when I.
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: Was in cybercrime.
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: Oh I see, okay, but even back then it's obviously
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: more pervasive, But back then it was pervasive.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: No, the emergence and into perpetuity of cyber is a
• 36:45
  Speaker 4: very scary thing. And we're not We're talking, you know,
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: crimes against the computer, which is a whole different dynamic
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: to what we talked about earlier about a crime against
• 36:56
  Speaker 4: a person, crime against the commonwealth.
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: This is crimes against the computer.
• 37:01
  Speaker 4: So now we're talking against financial institutions against critical infrastructure
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: where they can manipulate air traffic control, maritime beacons, gas utilities.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: It's a whole different frontier if they really turn their
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: minds to it, If they just weren't into profiteering through
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: financial scams or manipulating and fishing and bank accounts and stuff,
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: they could really cyber terrorism is such a scary thing.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: Do you think we're prepared for it here in this country?
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: Having been a going back way back when when again
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: a multi jurisdictional and task force was put together with
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: the Australian Cybersecurity Center, which I'm sure is far well
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: more advanced than it was back then, I think we're
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: well placed seeing what I saw back then, how they
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: were doing things.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: Yes, I do. I'm very confident.
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: That the capabilities that are available today, always remembering that
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: the advancement in technology for the adversary is always available
• 38:12
  Speaker 4: for others, if not better, because of the nature of
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: the beast and the classified availability of things that aren't
• 38:22
  Speaker 4: available to others. So yes, I am very confident that
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: our abilities are there.
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: Good.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: So thirty five years of chasing bad guys, drug pushes, importers,
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: bad coppers, terrorists, you name it an amazing career. I
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: think it's actually an advertisement for the variety you can
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: get as a federal police officer. Is there anything you
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: feel that was left to do any unfinished business?
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: For me?
• 38:52
  Speaker 4: No, I was very fortunate that I covered most roles
• 38:58
  Speaker 4: that the AFP offered. I was fortunate even at the
• 39:02
  Speaker 4: commander level, that was thirteen years of my career, the
• 39:07
  Speaker 4: rank that I was the longest. I was still operational
• 39:11
  Speaker 4: pretty much up to the end. I didn't leave the
• 39:14
  Speaker 4: way I wanted, as in being medically retired.
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: But what happened there by the way, what happened there
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: with that medical situation.
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: I've been diagnosed with PTSD obviously going back to two
• 39:26
  Speaker 4: thousand and two, and actually it was through the therapy.
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: They believe it started a bit earlier with people smuggling in.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: Civex, if you recall, which was a.
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: People smuggling vessel that sank in October two thousand and one.
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: I received the information regarding that and set off the
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: alarm bells in Australia regarding that, and then I went
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: there when they came, when the survivors came back to Indonesia.
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: So they believe that sort of started it through the therapy.
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: So yeah, so I didn't realize it's just through one
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: of the through the hoops I was going through with
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: a psychiatrist and he just basically said, mate, you're done, And.
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you could have pushed me over with a feather.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Really would you want to continue?
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: I knew my time. I was always going to retire it.
• 40:29
  Speaker 4: I was very mindful of retiring at fifty five because
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: I was able to with the old super scheme, and
• 40:36
  Speaker 4: I was very much an advocate for people to at
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: my rank and above to look at refreshing the thinking
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: and the AFP and giving the younger people, you know,
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: just refresh. So I was quite an advocate for people
• 40:51
  Speaker 4: go and live your life. You know, if you're young
• 40:54
  Speaker 4: enough and can afford to, you should move on. But
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: it is a shock when somebody does say it's time,
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: and it's not really your decisions. So I suppose could.
• 41:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I would have continued. I think
• 41:09
  Speaker 4: my race was run. I was tired, and it's a
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: real step down coming back internationally, back to domestic because
• 41:20
  Speaker 4: there's a whole focus and it's a whole yeah, and
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: the job had changed when I came back and yeah,
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: I think in hindsight it was it was time to go.
• 41:31
  Speaker 2: Well, at hindsight a lot of rationalization going on there.
• 41:34
  Speaker 2: You were still a young man and still fit. And
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: I think from the organizational point of view, to have
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: someone with thirty five years experience over this critical period
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: is a decision that shouldn't be taken.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Lightly, and I think it's a mistake not to.
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: And that's the problem is once you're an ex detective officer,
• 41:53
  Speaker 2: you know, they don't want to hear from you. But
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: I think there's a role to play as a consultant
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: and people like you shouldn't be allowed to walk away
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: one percent.
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: How old are you now? Fifty fifty nine? My goodness,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: still in your peak? You know? Did you have more
• 42:09
  Speaker 1: to give?
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 42:11
  Speaker 4: Now, you know with a break, you know, the four
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: years and stuff, Yeah I could, you know, I could
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: do some stuff. Yeah, I've got an advisory role at
• 42:23
  Speaker 4: the moment with a cyber company, cyber Edishield, looking after
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: you know, the safeguarding children online. That's just a part
• 42:38
  Speaker 4: time role at the moment, and yeah, that just still
• 42:41
  Speaker 4: got my toe in the water. You know, I'm passionate,
• 42:44
  Speaker 4: you know, the children, you know, the protection of children
• 42:47
  Speaker 4: is paramount, so you know, I'm still very interested in that,
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: so that keeps me. It's not really really busy, but
• 42:56
  Speaker 4: you know, very interested seeing what the trends are and
• 42:59
  Speaker 4: you know, just you know, seeing where I can contribute there.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: That's good.
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I guess another thing of the coin though,
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: it is time to give back to people like Chrissy,
• 43:09
  Speaker 2: who's to buy you in the hard years and to
• 43:13
  Speaker 2: achieve that separation and think about what life does hold
• 43:16
  Speaker 2: for you in the in the the following years that
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: you've got because you've.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: Hurt those years. Yeah that's true. Yeah.
• 43:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah, Well we just come back recently from Central Queensland
• 43:26
  Speaker 4: a caravaning tour through the Outback. That was awesome. That
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: was very therapeutical. I must say, the out is fantastic.
• 43:34
  Speaker 4: So there's more of that to come.
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: I remember one of my friends who was the former
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: homicide detective down here. He went to work, of all places,
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: at a funeral home and he's confronted one day with
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: the loved ones and the and the and the organizing
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: the arrangements for the funeral, and he leans over to
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: the family and says, excuse.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Me for this question, but do you think it was
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: natural causes he did the last there long.
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: You know he hasn't at the door.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: He has, he hasn't rolling. Let's roll back. It's Glenn McEwan.
• 44:08
  Speaker 2: He's a year ten dropout. He's looking whether to join
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: the state police or the federal police. In hindsight, was
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: at the right decision.
• 44:15
  Speaker 4: Oh absolutely, yes, for sure. I wouldn't have got the
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: opportunities that I did with all due respect in New
• 44:22
  Speaker 4: South walest Police. I didn't have to do the uniform
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: and the traffic stuff.
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, totally.
• 44:29
  Speaker 4: I was able to like I was doing or long
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: term drug investigations from nineteen eighty eight, so a year
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: within the job. So no, I found my calling and
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: you know everything, Yeah, good, bad and indifferent, but really no,
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: I couldn't have asked for a better career.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: And you got a whole new career as an author.
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: You're going to do podcasting, I believe as well. I'm
• 44:53
  Speaker 2: happy to get you back on this podcast and you know,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: use your expertise. But it's been a pleasure to talk
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: to you, Glenn, and thank you for your service mate.
• 45:00
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much, Adam, and I'm honored that you
• 45:03
  Speaker 4: reached out to me and I really appreciate thank you.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: That's my absolute pleasure. Thatt's Glenn mcew and former commander
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: with AFP.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Great career and as I said, this is my first
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: ever AFP officer from the show that it to want
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: to talk to me for some reason or other than
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: quite sure they particular journalists they talk to. They need
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: to change that. But I'll be interested to hear your
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: views out there if you're a federal police officer. Also
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: on the matters we've raised here today. I mean, I
• 45:26
  Speaker 2: think there's a trauma that builds up in people's service
• 45:29
  Speaker 2: and how you deal with it is critical to your
• 45:32
  Speaker 2: quality of life after that.
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: But at the end of the day, it is only
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: your job.
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: It is the job, but it's still only a job,
• 45:38
  Speaker 2: and there is life after that. I think Glend's a
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: good example of that as he's finding his feet as
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: an author. That book is Crime, Chaos and Controversy from
• 45:47
  Speaker 2: Global Crime Syndicates to Terror Attacks. That's coming out in October.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: I'll put a link to that you can see get
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: a bit of a pracie of that. But if you've
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: got a crime to report, please call Crime Stofers one
• 45:58
  Speaker 2: under Triple three, triple zero. If you don't trust the
• 46:02
  Speaker 2: police and I understand that, you can always email me
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: Adam Shanner, Writer gmail dot com. I will treat your
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: information the utmost discretion, although don't forget I am a journalist.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: I will want to tell the story. This has been
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: Adam Cham for real Crime. Thanks for listening. Thanks for
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: listening to this episode and supporting this story.
• 46:25
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• 46:29
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• 46:32
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• 46:35
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• 46:42
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• 46:44
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