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Wormwood (Repost) · Conspiracy! The Show

0:10
Speaker 1: Welcome to Conspiracy, the show, with your hosts, Adam Todd
0:16
Speaker 1: Brown and Conor McSpadden. Hey everybody, welcome to Conspiracy, the show.
0:35
Speaker 1: I'm Adam Todd Brown.
0:36
Speaker 2: I'm Conor McSpadden.
0:38
Speaker 1: I just missed you taking a drink of water. I
0:40
Speaker 1: saw what you were doing. I'm off my fucking game
0:42
Speaker 1: right now.
0:43
Speaker 2: You would have really hustled through your own name if
0:45
Speaker 2: you wanted to embarrass me.
0:47
Speaker 1: But alas, you did not. I should pull up a
0:50
Speaker 1: clock so we don't get off track.
0:53
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't just start chatting like old hens
0:56
Speaker 2: and realize we've been in here for an hour.
0:58
Speaker 1: And a half. How's it been going, man? Good, dude. Yeah?
1:03
Speaker 1: Everything's groovy.
1:05
Speaker 2: That's good.
1:06
Speaker 1: Everything's groovy with me, too. Things are going well.
1:09
Speaker 2: Adam's got his Supermom t-shirt.
1:11
Speaker 1: I do. I fucking love this shirt. Yeah, it's fun.
1:14
Speaker 1: Co-opted it for my own purposes.
1:15
Speaker 2: I had a World's Greatest Grandpa t-shirt I'd wear. I
1:18
Speaker 2: just go to thrift stores when I was a kid
1:19
Speaker 2: and just get very specific, like the Gomez Family Reunion t-shirt.
1:25
Speaker 1: I had a, when I lived in South Dakota, the
1:29
Speaker 1: high school there was called Roosevelt High School, and I
1:32
Speaker 1: had a 3X women's hockey team t-shirt. t-shirt long sleeve
1:37
Speaker 1: t-shirt with the name dick meyer on back wow that
1:41
Speaker 1: i found in a thrift store and there was no
1:43
Speaker 1: way i wasn't gonna buy that oh of course not
1:45
Speaker 1: and i had a shirt from walmart that said fly
1:47
Speaker 1: fish and dad that was one of my favorite shirts
1:50
Speaker 1: for a long fucking time that's a good time yeah
1:52
Speaker 1: so welcome back to mind control month as if you
1:56
Speaker 1: had a fucking choice That's how mind control works, baby. No,
2:00
Speaker 1: we're not leaving.
2:00
Speaker 2: There's no exit clause for mind control. You can't opt out.
2:03
Speaker 1: No, no. This is a subscription-only episode. Last week's episode
2:09
Speaker 1: was about MKUltra.
2:10
Speaker 2: So now as soon as you see that email notification
2:13
Speaker 2: telling you there's a new post, you're going to go
2:16
Speaker 2: apeshit at the post office.
2:17
Speaker 1: Yeah, ideally, if everything's worked as it was supposed to
2:21
Speaker 1: so far.
2:21
Speaker 2: It took months of rehearsal to get the script right,
2:24
Speaker 2: to supplant these cues in you.
2:26
Speaker 1: You thought it was all just stammering and bullshitting.
2:29
Speaker 2: But it was all very well curated for the specific
2:33
Speaker 2: purpose of creating an army of murderers.
2:35
Speaker 1: So, yeah, this week we're talking about Wormwood, the Netflix documentary.
2:40
Speaker 1: I think I had that in the Navy. What?
2:44
Speaker 2: That just sounds like a seafaring STD, you know?
2:49
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, that it does. Yeah. And I like. I
2:52
Speaker 1: like on last week's episode, I speculated as to whether
2:57
Speaker 1: the title referred to the hallucinogen in Absinthe. And even
3:01
Speaker 1: though I had seen this documentary series once before, I
3:04
Speaker 1: was like, I wonder if it comes up. I watched
3:06
Speaker 1: it a second time. It comes up like 30 seconds in. Oh, yeah.
3:09
Speaker 1: It's one of the first things they talk about. You're like, yeah,
3:12
Speaker 1: I was right about that thing. I already knew. So
3:14
Speaker 1: that cleared that up. What did you think of this
3:18
Speaker 1: documentary series?
3:19
Speaker 2: I think, like you said, it started off a little slow,
3:22
Speaker 2: but it really does kind of build, and it's pretty
3:26
Speaker 2: well done. You'll hear us talk about it, but some
3:29
Speaker 2: of the Shakespeare comparisons do kind of just like, all right, man,
3:34
Speaker 2: maybe just make this episode 28 minutes.
3:38
Speaker 1: Yeah, they keep flashing back to stuff. I felt like,
3:41
Speaker 1: I mean, the first time I watched it, I remember
3:43
Speaker 1: I got through the first, two and a half episodes,
3:46
Speaker 1: and I messaged you and was like, ah, it's bullshit. Yeah, yeah.
3:50
Speaker 1: And then I watched all the way to the end
3:52
Speaker 1: of the third episode, and I was like, oh, okay.
3:55
Speaker 2: Yeah, never mind.
3:56
Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting. People need to know. I think what
4:00
Speaker 1: threw me off is I thought I always knew kind
4:03
Speaker 1: of how this story went, and that's the crux of
4:05
Speaker 1: this documentary, is you might think you know the conspiracy
4:10
Speaker 1: angle behind this But it's actually.
4:13
Speaker 2: But there's kind of more at play than you would think.
4:14
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's actually a little bit crazier than that. Spoiler alert, Korea. Yeah.
4:20
Speaker 1: And we're going to... We're going to go through the...
4:23
Speaker 1: If you haven't seen it, there's going to be some spoilers.
4:25
Speaker 1: You might want to watch it first.
4:28
Speaker 2: Yeah, or watch... Listen to this in lieu of... Yeah.
4:31
Speaker 2: It's a six-hour investment, you know.
4:34
Speaker 1: It's going to take a big chunk of your day.
4:36
Speaker 2: And we're here to distill it down and make you
4:38
Speaker 2: a nice podcasting sour mash version of the.
4:42
Speaker 1: Of the product. Exactly.
4:44
Speaker 2: You can't exactly watch Netflix while you're driving.
4:47
Speaker 1: I guarantee our version will be slightly funnier. Yeah. Yeah,
4:51
Speaker 1: I would hope so. Although there are some chuckles.
4:53
Speaker 2: I mean, I already had that great Wormwood joke where
4:56
Speaker 2: I just did 1920s comedian voice and you just force
4:59
Speaker 2: laughed before you knew what I was getting at.
5:01
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah. You won't find that on Netflix anymore.
5:05
Speaker 2: You know, it's weird how people askew levity when there's
5:09
Speaker 2: CIA assassination plots. It's like, come on, man. What's the
5:12
Speaker 2: point if you're not going to crack wise?
5:15
Speaker 1: It's a documentary, but it's also kind of a movie. Like,
5:20
Speaker 1: it's both of those. Yeah, it's kind of an extended dramatization.
5:23
Speaker 1: There's a lot of Peter Sarsgaard in it. Is that
5:26
Speaker 1: his name? I think so, yeah. Yeah, Peter Sarsgaard plays
5:29
Speaker 1: Frank Olsen.
5:30
Speaker 2: What are those masks that they're wearing at the airports?
5:33
Speaker 1: The SARS guard? Hey. Hey. That was the least.
5:39
Speaker 2: Deserved air horn, I think, in Unpops history.
5:42
Speaker 1: I got that joke about halfway through the air horn going.
5:44
Speaker 1: It was like a courtesy air horn.
5:48
Speaker 2: You know, like when the light's green, just a little toot,
5:51
Speaker 2: you know?
5:52
Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, let's talk about the first episode. The subject
5:58
Speaker 1: of this documentary is Eric Olson. He's the son of
6:02
Speaker 1: Frank Olson. And we find out right away that his
6:06
Speaker 1: dad died when he was young. And they ask him
6:11
Speaker 1: at one point, what were you told when your father died?
6:13
Speaker 1: And he says he fell out a window. Correction, he
6:16
Speaker 1: fell or jumped out of a window, which that alone
6:20
Speaker 1: is weird. Yeah. Yeah.
6:21
Speaker 2: I mean, this documentary really does open like Watchmen. Yeah,
6:26
Speaker 2: it does. And like fell or jumped are two starkly
6:29
Speaker 2: different things.
6:30
Speaker 1: Oh, very much so. And that's kind of what they
6:35
Speaker 1: set it up with. And we find out right away
6:38
Speaker 1: that in 1975, it was revealed that Frank Olson killed
6:44
Speaker 1: himself after secretly being dosed with LSD. Yeah. So they
6:47
Speaker 1: lead with that in the very first episode. And I
6:52
Speaker 1: don't think they should have, because it feels like they're
6:56
Speaker 1: giving the ending away, and then they're going to Tarantino
6:59
Speaker 1: it to get back to how that happened.
7:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just do wonder if they were kind of like,
7:04
Speaker 2: we need a hook here.
7:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that could be. And I think it does
7:10
Speaker 1: some disservice to it, but it could just be me
7:12
Speaker 1: in like, yep, I know, that's what happened, and just
7:15
Speaker 1: kind of writing the rest off. But there is actually
7:18
Speaker 1: more to it.
7:19
Speaker 2: Well, it's sort of like watching an old TV show.
7:22
Speaker 2: I've been watching Star Trek The Next Generation, and I'm like, well,
7:25
Speaker 2: I know Data doesn't die, but I mean, I will
7:29
Speaker 2: let that go for the duration of this episode and
7:32
Speaker 2: be like, maybe Data dies. Wow. I mean, I hope not.
7:35
Speaker 2: Brent Spiner really needs these checks. And then, oh, he's alive.
7:39
Speaker 1: Great. It's like anything. So one of the things they
7:44
Speaker 1: talk about pretty early on is the funeral of Frank
7:48
Speaker 1: Olson's dad. And, or actually I'm jumping ahead. They, they
7:54
Speaker 1: go into some details about this revelation from the government
7:57
Speaker 1: that Frank Olson killed himself after being secretly dosed. And
8:02
Speaker 1: what was interesting to me is it seemed like when
8:06
Speaker 1: MKUltra broke, there was some bickering over the word massive.
8:11
Speaker 1: It was described as a, and I think it's because
8:14
Speaker 1: there's a headline that they show in this episode where
8:18
Speaker 1: the word massive is in quotes, as if the CIA
8:20
Speaker 1: was like, yeah, we did it, but not that much.
8:24
Speaker 1: What's massive, really? And I think that's probably because they
8:28
Speaker 1: thought they had eliminated all of the documents by that
8:31
Speaker 1: point yeah because remember that those.
8:33
Speaker 2: Because that's that's how we found out about it was
8:35
Speaker 2: the misfiled documents right and even just from what we
8:38
Speaker 2: saw from those it was pretty widespread.
8:40
Speaker 1: Right yeah it was huge if you haven't listened to
8:44
Speaker 1: the mk ultra episode go back and listen to it
8:47
Speaker 1: and you'll know more about what we're talking.
8:49
Speaker 2: About prerequisite this is uh this is a mind control
8:51
Speaker 2: uh uh to 201 so exactly.
8:55
Speaker 1: So Seymour Hersh comes up in the first episode. He's
8:58
Speaker 1: a guy who he's one of the more interesting subjects
9:01
Speaker 1: in this thing because he's an investigative journalist who seems
9:06
Speaker 1: to be like equal parts encouraging Eric Olson to look
9:11
Speaker 1: into this more, but also discouraging him from looking into
9:15
Speaker 1: it more. Yeah. Either at like at various points, he
9:18
Speaker 1: either just kind of flat out disagrees with him or
9:22
Speaker 1: he's like, you look into it, but CIA might kill you. Yeah, yeah. Which,
9:26
Speaker 1: that's a terrifying thing to hear. I mean, he's making
9:29
Speaker 1: a fair point. Yeah. You know? And this first episode,
9:33
Speaker 1: he writes an article that ends in the family holding
9:38
Speaker 1: a press conference. Like, how they weren't just all murdered
9:42
Speaker 1: at that point blows my mind.
9:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I wonder if they have some kind of, like,
9:47
Speaker 2: it's almost like a data cap thing with, like, you know,
9:49
Speaker 2: families and murder. They're just like, you know what? There's
9:52
Speaker 2: a big overage fee if we do two unsanctioned murders
9:55
Speaker 2: in one calendar year, so we're going to have to
9:57
Speaker 2: wait until the plane re-ups. Maybe I Maybe I could
10:00
Speaker 2: try to murder them on Wi-Fi, but I don't know
10:02
Speaker 2: if they'll give me the password.
10:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I hope it's just part of the budget. It's
10:06
Speaker 1: just not in that we have to wait until 76.
10:08
Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I forget what TV showed.
10:11
Speaker 2: I think it might be Futurama where they're just briefing
10:13
Speaker 2: the president, like, alright, you get two murders a year,
10:15
Speaker 2: no questions asked. And I'm like, it probably is kind
10:18
Speaker 2: of like that.
10:19
Speaker 1: I'm sure.
10:20
Speaker 2: It probably is just like, oh, man, the Stephensons. I mean,
10:24
Speaker 2: no one found out about them because we really blew
10:26
Speaker 2: our whole murder cap for this year.
10:28
Speaker 1: I mean, if I was Secret Service or something, that's
10:31
Speaker 1: maybe something I'd just offer up day one. Like, hey,
10:34
Speaker 1: you're here now. Who do you want me to kill? Yeah,
10:37
Speaker 1: just to show your loyalty. I'll kill one person just
10:39
Speaker 1: so you know I have your back. Yeah. And so
10:42
Speaker 1: I could blackmail the president with something later. Like if
10:45
Speaker 1: he ordered, I'd record it. I'm never going to be
10:48
Speaker 1: in the Secret Service.
10:49
Speaker 2: No, I met a guy who was in the Secret
10:51
Speaker 2: Service on 9-11, and it was funny.
10:53
Speaker 1: Oh, wow.
10:54
Speaker 2: And this guy works at one of the many bars
10:57
Speaker 2: in the middle of nowhere that I perform.
10:59
Speaker 1: At, and I was just like, how did you end
11:00
Speaker 1: up here?
11:01
Speaker 2: How did you go from the Pentagon on the big
11:04
Speaker 2: day to this little bullshit farming town?
11:07
Speaker 1: It's so weird. Yeah. Did he have an answer? Not really.
11:11
Speaker 2: I mean, just kind of drunkenly like, yeah, that's life,
11:15
Speaker 2: you know? But it's a thing of like, You forget
11:18
Speaker 2: these are just like normal dudes because you talk to
11:21
Speaker 2: this guy and he's like, not particularly smart, not particularly
11:25
Speaker 2: put together. He's one of these dudes who's like, yeah,
11:27
Speaker 2: I got a video game themed bar and seven kids
11:29
Speaker 2: I barely see. And I was just like, wait, wait,
11:32
Speaker 2: back up. 9-11, go on.
11:35
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's interesting. I've never known anyone who admitted to
11:40
Speaker 1: working for the government. I've just known people that I
11:42
Speaker 1: suspected worked. Like my dad had this friend when I
11:46
Speaker 1: was a kid named Roy. I'm not even going to
11:49
Speaker 1: say his full name because I'm still sure he's out
11:51
Speaker 1: there somewhere in the espionage community. But we could never
11:55
Speaker 1: figure out what that motherfucker did for a living. And
11:57
Speaker 1: he just kind of would pop up every once in
11:59
Speaker 1: a while and be like, hey, I need to stay here.
12:02
Speaker 1: But he also had a ton of fucking money. It
12:03
Speaker 1: was really weird. Yeah, yeah. He seemed like... He also
12:08
Speaker 1: had very strong opinions on the fall of the Soviet Union.
12:14
Speaker 1: At a time when most Americans didn't have a lot
12:16
Speaker 1: of strong opinions... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, in favor of
12:19
Speaker 1: the Soviet Union. That's so weird, man. Yeah.
12:22
Speaker 2: I mean, I just don't... Like, it's interesting, not just
12:25
Speaker 2: in terms of, like, the geopolitical repercussions, but just, like,
12:28
Speaker 2: from an anthropological perspective, what that kind of role and
12:32
Speaker 2: responsibility will do to your psyche, like, how that molds
12:36
Speaker 2: the Play-Doh up there.
12:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah. And that's a thing you think about a
12:40
Speaker 1: lot watching this documentary. Like, the situation these people are... Like,
12:46
Speaker 1: as bad as you feel for Frank Olsen, I also
12:49
Speaker 1: kind of felt bad for the people who had to
12:52
Speaker 1: oversee killing him. Yeah. No, I mean, because it's like,
12:55
Speaker 1: what are you going to say, no? Yeah. Then you
12:57
Speaker 1: get killed. Yeah. It's like joining a fucking gang.
13:00
Speaker 2: I mean, I guess it's your fault for taking the
13:03
Speaker 2: job and pursuing it. But I mean, maybe you didn't
13:06
Speaker 2: realize that was part of it. And by the time
13:07
Speaker 2: you're there, you're just like, well, fuck. I mean, there's
13:10
Speaker 2: someone above me, and I got to fucking do this.
13:12
Speaker 1: Yeah. I sometimes... think the CIA must go after like
13:16
Speaker 1: the most idealistic government friendly candidates they can find and
13:22
Speaker 1: then just break them down when they get them inside.
13:25
Speaker 2: I mean, I think, yeah, you kind of have to
13:26
Speaker 2: have that be like, there are people where it's like,
13:29
Speaker 2: you know.
13:29
Speaker 1: They're, they're yoga is their God or whatever.
13:32
Speaker 2: Like people kind of have something that that's their thing,
13:35
Speaker 2: that that's kind of where they get it. And there
13:36
Speaker 2: are people that, you know, just have faith in institutions.
13:39
Speaker 2: I mean, less and less, you know, these days, but
13:42
Speaker 2: I mean, You find these folks and you have a
13:44
Speaker 2: process for weeding them out. And you're like, well, yeah,
13:46
Speaker 2: let's take that and exploit it because no one else
13:49
Speaker 2: is going to do this shit.
13:50
Speaker 1: Right. Yeah. And that that kind of seems to be
13:54
Speaker 1: Frank Olson, which they they talk a little bit. One
13:57
Speaker 1: interesting thing that comes up, they talk a lot about
14:01
Speaker 1: his funeral and Vincent Rouette. Vincent Rouette is one of
14:05
Speaker 1: the most important figures in this documentary story. He was
14:09
Speaker 1: one of Frank Olson's best friends. He was a co-worker.
14:12
Speaker 1: And after the funeral, he starts showing up just to
14:16
Speaker 1: hang out with Alice Olson, the mom. And Eric Olson
14:22
Speaker 1: mentions that mom kind of slides into alcoholism because Vincent
14:27
Speaker 1: Rouette would show up every day and drink fucking martinis. Yeah.
14:31
Speaker 1: And we later find out the CIA sent him there.
14:35
Speaker 1: They wanted him to keep... Keep an eye on mom
14:38
Speaker 1: and make sure she didn't say anything crazy. Yeah. Which
14:41
Speaker 1: that's terrifying because up to that point, they viewed him
14:45
Speaker 1: as a family friend and he probably viewed them as friends.
14:49
Speaker 2: But then, you know, like the assignment comes down. It's
14:51
Speaker 2: like you got to go push the narrative in this direction.
14:54
Speaker 1: Yeah.
14:55
Speaker 2: You know, lubricate the lubricate the the movement with the
14:59
Speaker 2: with the old martini glass.
15:00
Speaker 1: And then what a fucking job that would be. My God.
15:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, grieving wife liaison. You know, it's so shitty. But
15:10
Speaker 2: you're just like, I mean, you got to figure the
15:11
Speaker 2: people organizing this whole cover up were just like, oh,
15:14
Speaker 2: we got an in. This guy's perfect. She's just going
15:17
Speaker 2: to think that he wants to come and tell stories
15:19
Speaker 2: about Frank. And then bada bing, bada boom, she's over it.
15:22
Speaker 1: Yeah.
15:22
Speaker 2: Yeah. So they talk about that. And God knows who
15:25
Speaker 2: was in those fucking martinis. We'll get into that later.
15:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, for sure. At this point, they talk a little
15:30
Speaker 1: bit about Frank Olson's army career. And he started out
15:36
Speaker 1: as an agronomist and at one point just gets recruited
15:40
Speaker 1: to participate in a biological weapons program at Fort Detrick.
15:45
Speaker 1: And they bring this up to point out how this
15:48
Speaker 1: guy went from farm scientist to working on possible biological
15:54
Speaker 1: weapons overnight. And one of the saddest things they mention
16:01
Speaker 1: is the mom said she could tell when things went
16:06
Speaker 1: well at work that day because Frank would come home
16:11
Speaker 1: really sad because all the rabbits died. Oh, my God. Yeah,
16:15
Speaker 1: that was pretty fucking rough. And imagine what that would
16:20
Speaker 1: do to you. Because being a farmer, like being a
16:24
Speaker 1: scientist interested in stuff like that kind of implies that
16:27
Speaker 1: you care about animals a little bit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
16:30
Speaker 2: If you're an agronomist, you probably just Yeah, I mean,
16:32
Speaker 2: it's not quite like he's getting dressed in the morning
16:34
Speaker 2: by bluebirds a la Disney Princess, but I mean, it's
16:38
Speaker 2: probably somewhat similar.
16:39
Speaker 1: Yeah, and now you're just killing rabbits for work. Yeah. Harsh.
16:44
Speaker 1: And we also find out that the family never saw
16:49
Speaker 1: Frank's body after he died, which seems really odd to me.
16:55
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess, you know, you fall out of
16:57
Speaker 1: a building they were trying to, but it seems like
17:00
Speaker 1: that should be up to the family.
17:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel like they've got, like, just a tissue
17:04
Speaker 2: box full of, like, we murdered this guy and covered
17:06
Speaker 2: it up tarps, where they're just like, grab one out
17:08
Speaker 2: of the box, like, and then just, okay, it goes
17:11
Speaker 2: over him, you know? Yeah. It says, are you sure
17:14
Speaker 2: you want to see it on the front of it
17:16
Speaker 2: in big impact letters?
17:18
Speaker 1: So they do a bunch of, at this point, dramatic reenactments,
17:22
Speaker 1: and we see Frank Olsen getting dosed at the cabin
17:25
Speaker 1: in the woods. He goes on this work retreat, and
17:29
Speaker 1: this is a thing we talked about in MKUltra. He
17:32
Speaker 1: goes on this work retreat where Sidney Gottlieb, who just
17:35
Speaker 1: seems like a genuinely evil dude, is kind of leading
17:40
Speaker 1: this retreat. And he does really have a Marvel villain-ass name. Oh, yeah,
17:44
Speaker 1: for sure. Sidney Gottlieb. He made the serum that turns him.
17:47
Speaker 1: And in the documentary, they get... I don't remember the
17:50
Speaker 1: actor's name, but he plays... crazy people in every fucking
17:55
Speaker 1: role he's in. Like, they nailed the casting of Sidney Gottlieb. Like,
17:59
Speaker 1: he talks weird. He's got a limp.
18:01
Speaker 2: He's the guy who's like what Andy Serkis is to
18:03
Speaker 2: motion capture.
18:04
Speaker 1: This guy is to like... Yeah. And so they're at
18:08
Speaker 1: this retreat, and everyone gets... their drink spiked with LSD.
18:14
Speaker 1: And Frank Olsen seems like kind of a bummer because
18:17
Speaker 1: everyone else is just like hanging out, partying, and he's
18:21
Speaker 1: wigging the fuck out. Like he's having a bad trip
18:24
Speaker 1: or something. And they don't go into a lot of
18:27
Speaker 1: details about what he did or what he said, but
18:30
Speaker 1: he just comes back from that retreat and says he
18:36
Speaker 1: made a mistake. and that's nothing worse.
18:39
Speaker 2: Than the vague and then i don't want to talk
18:41
Speaker 2: about it.
18:42
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah and we don't really we find out later
18:46
Speaker 1: what that means it becomes a really important line and
18:49
Speaker 1: toward the end we find out what that probably means
18:52
Speaker 1: but up to this point they just make it seem
18:55
Speaker 1: like he was given lsd without knowing and it kind
19:00
Speaker 1: of made him crazy. It sends him into a depressive spiral.
19:03
Speaker 2: And again, like knowing that you took a hallucinogen like that,
19:06
Speaker 2: you're like, okay, I'm going to grade my perception of
19:10
Speaker 2: reality on that curve. And even in my intoxicated state,
19:13
Speaker 2: I am aware and people will remind me that this
19:15
Speaker 2: is because I intentionally took these mind altering drugs, but
19:18
Speaker 2: not knowing why that's happening.
19:20
Speaker 1: It's gotta be the fucking worst. Yeah, absolutely. Like, any
19:24
Speaker 1: surprise high is a bad time. Oh, for sure, yeah. Like,
19:27
Speaker 1: if you smoke, just even if you smoke too much
19:29
Speaker 1: weed and it hits you in a bad way, it's
19:32
Speaker 1: a thing you have to ride out. Oh, talk to
19:34
Speaker 1: Chet Wild. Yeah, exactly. It's not, it's never enjoyable. And
19:39
Speaker 1: so that's kind of the crux of the first episode.
19:43
Speaker 1: They say, they basically say the CIA drugged Frank Olson
19:48
Speaker 1: and it uh led him to commit suicide and then
19:51
Speaker 1: they end the episode showing us him getting drugged they
19:56
Speaker 1: they also talk about how after this press conference this
19:59
Speaker 1: family was invited to the white house to receive a
20:02
Speaker 1: personal apology from gerald.
20:04
Speaker 2: Ford yeah which You got to be like, could we
20:07
Speaker 2: have done this two years earlier or later so.
20:09
Speaker 1: I could have a cool president, you know?
20:11
Speaker 2: Apologize. It's like, oh, boy, Gerald Ford.
20:16
Speaker 1: Yeah. Who wouldn't want to hear Nixon issue his first
20:18
Speaker 1: apology of all time? Yeah, yeah.
20:20
Speaker 2: It's like, all right, Adam, you're going to meet Nirvana.
20:24
Speaker 2: It's just Pat Smear's guitar tech, you know? Like, oh,
20:29
Speaker 2: that'd be pretty cool, but I mean... Yeah, my first
20:32
Speaker 2: question would be... Chris Novoselic doesn't seem like he's doing
20:34
Speaker 2: a lot.
20:34
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. What, is he writing books in Seattle? Come on.
20:39
Speaker 1: One thing that was interesting... Did you notice the clock
20:41
Speaker 1: in the first episode?
20:42
Speaker 2: I didn't until you pointed it out here.
20:44
Speaker 1: Yeah. The clock... There's a clock really prominently over Eric
20:50
Speaker 1: Olsen's shoulder during all of his interviews in the first episode.
20:54
Speaker 1: And about halfway through, I realized this guy either talks...
20:58
Speaker 1: faster than anyone in history, or that clock's not moving. Yeah.
21:02
Speaker 1: Because it's always at 2.33. That's what time it always
21:07
Speaker 1: says on that clock. Yeah. So if you watch this
21:10
Speaker 1: and didn't notice.
21:10
Speaker 2: Dude, someone is checking their phone right now, and it's 2.33
21:12
Speaker 2: as they're listening, and they're tripping out.
21:14
Speaker 1: So I just want to say shout out. It's 2.38 here.
21:17
Speaker 1: We just missed. Oh, wow. Thank Christ. That would have
21:20
Speaker 1: been bad. So that's the end of... And at the
21:23
Speaker 1: end of the first episode is where the parallels to
21:25
Speaker 1: Hamlet start, which, well, I did not need that. Yeah,
21:28
Speaker 1: who cares?
21:29
Speaker 2: This does nothing for... Like, this is not where we're
21:31
Speaker 2: watching this documentary.
21:32
Speaker 1: At the very least, this could have been five episodes
21:34
Speaker 1: without that bullshit. Yeah, right? I did not need it.
21:36
Speaker 2: You could have really cut some fat without all these analogies.
21:40
Speaker 1: So, episode two opens with Olsen talking to Alice about how...
21:44
Speaker 1: Frank Olsen talking about how the retreat didn't go well
21:47
Speaker 1: and he made a terrible mistake, like we just mentioned. And...
21:52
Speaker 1: From there, they cover his time between when he comes
21:56
Speaker 1: back from this retreat and when he finally goes to
22:00
Speaker 1: commit suicide, basically.
22:02
Speaker 2: And I don't know if you could see the gigantic
22:04
Speaker 2: air quotes Adam threw at his back putting on that statement.
22:09
Speaker 1: They go to see a movie at one point, Martin Luther.
22:12
Speaker 1: Alice thinks maybe it was a bad idea. Judging from
22:15
Speaker 1: the clips in the documentary, I think she was right,
22:17
Speaker 1: especially if he was still on LSD of any sort. Yeah.
22:20
Speaker 1: Looks like a very intense film.
22:22
Speaker 2: You want to go with like a Thor Ragnarok or
22:24
Speaker 2: something just.
22:25
Speaker 1: Fun and flirty. That was a fun movie.
22:28
Speaker 2: I saw it on a plane finally, and I was like,
22:29
Speaker 2: this is great. How do they fit so much shit
22:31
Speaker 2: into this movie? I fucking loved it.
22:32
Speaker 1: It was great. It was a good time. It was
22:33
Speaker 1: like a comedy. It was so good.
22:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was fun.
22:36
Speaker 1: So at one point, Olsen, while he's back from this retreat,
22:41
Speaker 1: says he wants to quit his job. He goes into
22:43
Speaker 1: work to do that, and one of the creepiest moments happens.
22:47
Speaker 1: He goes in and talks to his supervisor. His supervisor
22:51
Speaker 1: excuses Sidney, or excuses Frank from the room, and then
22:55
Speaker 1: picks up the phone and just says, get me Robert Lashbrook.
23:00
Speaker 1: So who the fuck's Robert Lashbrook? We don't really find
23:05
Speaker 1: that out right away, but it comes up. But that
23:07
Speaker 1: scene was especially, like, when that happened, you know something's afoot.
23:11
Speaker 2: He's not in HR, you know? He's... This is not
23:15
Speaker 2: the severance package liaison. Definitely not.
23:18
Speaker 1: No, it's got to be a little more sinister than that.
23:21
Speaker 1: One of the things I found interesting was the Colby documents.
23:24
Speaker 1: They talk about this guy, I think it was William Colby,
23:27
Speaker 1: had all of these documents pertaining to the death of
23:30
Speaker 1: Frank Olson that he gives to the family. And this
23:34
Speaker 1: is two years before that Freedom of Information Act where
23:37
Speaker 1: all the MKUltra documents came out. So I wonder what
23:40
Speaker 1: these documents were.
23:41
Speaker 2: Were yeah what they had if anything crossed over probably
23:44
Speaker 2: not because of the small amount of documents from mk
23:46
Speaker 2: ultra that actually survived due to that filing error but
23:50
Speaker 2: it is it is kind of interesting.
23:52
Speaker 1: And it it at this point it seems like the
23:55
Speaker 1: cia and the government in general is being really really
23:59
Speaker 1: open about the fact that they drugged this guy in
24:03
Speaker 1: an experiment and it caused him to commit suicide and
24:06
Speaker 1: they're sorry.
24:07
Speaker 2: Yeah and it's like i think the the kind of
24:09
Speaker 2: the the crux of the uh assertion being made is
24:12
Speaker 2: like by them copping to that, it was, that was
24:15
Speaker 2: supposed to be like, well, clearly this looks so bad
24:17
Speaker 2: that this has got to be the whole truth. When
24:19
Speaker 2: in fact it was, uh, you know, this guy was
24:21
Speaker 2: asking questions and we killed him and pretended it was
24:24
Speaker 2: suicide because we drugged him.
24:26
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a crazy story meant to hide
24:29
Speaker 1: a crazier story basically. And so at one point after
24:34
Speaker 1: he's been home for a bit, He and Alice go
24:38
Speaker 1: to drive to the office, and when they get there,
24:40
Speaker 1: someone comes out and tells Alice that another agent is
24:44
Speaker 1: going to drive her home and that Frank's going back
24:46
Speaker 1: to New York, which at that point, Frank probably knew
24:51
Speaker 1: he was going to die.
24:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not thinking like, okay, well, this is a,
24:56
Speaker 2: I'm getting a gold watch, you know?
24:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. Like, what are they doing? And even if the
25:02
Speaker 1: official story that he was just drugged and freaked out
25:05
Speaker 1: and killed himself is true, he probably still had that thought. Oh, yeah.
25:10
Speaker 1: Especially if the other version of events where he was
25:14
Speaker 1: murdered for knowing too much and threatening to say something
25:17
Speaker 1: about it. that part's true he definitely knew he.
25:19
Speaker 2: Was about to die yeah probably but what do you
25:21
Speaker 2: do i don't know man i mean what you're gonna
25:24
Speaker 2: fight against it you know you're gonna bring more hell
25:26
Speaker 2: upon your family than's coming already.
25:28
Speaker 1: Just fucking kill the people trying to take you like
25:31
Speaker 1: there's nothing you can do yeah what a fucking situation it's.
25:34
Speaker 2: Like well do i either you know want to go
25:37
Speaker 2: have this done on their terms or just having alone
25:39
Speaker 2: in my bed and with some like fake intruder they've
25:42
Speaker 2: cooked up and when they brainwashed a homeless guy to
25:44
Speaker 2: come in and stab me with an ice pick like
25:47
Speaker 2: Choices aren't great.
25:48
Speaker 1: No. And they take him to a guy named Dr.
25:53
Speaker 1: Abramson who's an allergist, which that seems like a weird choice,
25:57
Speaker 1: but it makes sense in the end.
26:02
Speaker 2: And this is a really weird part in the doc.
26:05
Speaker 2: Do you remember the experiment they did on him where
26:09
Speaker 2: he had Frank lay down and put a lamp cover
26:13
Speaker 2: over his head and shined a light on it? and
26:16
Speaker 2: just asked him all these weird questions. And it just
26:21
Speaker 2: seemed like they did this experiment, he wigged out, and
26:25
Speaker 2: their solution was, let's do a few more experiments, see
26:29
Speaker 2: how it goes. It almost kind of seems like they
26:31
Speaker 2: were like, well, this guy is done.
26:35
Speaker 1: He's got to get out of here.
26:36
Speaker 2: We might as well get a little more mileage out
26:39
Speaker 2: of him, experiment-wise.
26:41
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. Or they were just trying to
26:44
Speaker 1: make him... actually crazy. Yeah.
26:47
Speaker 2: I mean, maybe just to, you know, Hey, if you get,
26:49
Speaker 2: you get a phone call to Alice, you're going to
26:51
Speaker 2: sound even weirder.
26:51
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so that happens. And shortly after that, they
26:57
Speaker 1: cut to the news that at one point the family
27:00
Speaker 1: gets a $ 750, 000 settlement from the government for the death
27:06
Speaker 1: of their father. Yeah. And it includes Alice getting all
27:09
Speaker 1: of his benefits. Sidney Gottlieb gives a really backhanded line and,
27:14
Speaker 1: where he says, we'll make sure you get all the
27:16
Speaker 1: benefits your husband deserved. And it seems like a payoff.
27:22
Speaker 1: That's what Eric Olsen took it as, because it says, basically,
27:26
Speaker 1: they sign an agreement that they can't ask any more questions.
27:30
Speaker 2: Which is like, oh, yeah, no more further legal action.
27:32
Speaker 2: It's like, OK, I guess that makes sense for a sub,
27:35
Speaker 2: but no more questions.
27:36
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah.
27:37
Speaker 2: This woman's husband that's dead, this kid's father that's dead,
27:40
Speaker 2: no more questions.
27:42
Speaker 1: And he basically hints that his mom just didn't want
27:47
Speaker 1: to know what happened. Like, it's bad enough that her
27:49
Speaker 1: husband died. Like, is it going to make her feel
27:52
Speaker 1: better to know that his friend was complicit in his death? Yeah.
27:58
Speaker 1: And then came and babysat her for years after to
28:01
Speaker 1: make sure she didn't ask too many questions.
28:03
Speaker 2: And again, I mean, much like kind of empathizing with
28:06
Speaker 2: those dudes that might have had to kill him.
28:08
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, I kind of get it. Yeah.
28:10
Speaker 1: You know? Yeah. You know, maybe she knew. Like, maybe
28:13
Speaker 1: she knew that's what happened. And she's like, I don't know. Yeah,
28:16
Speaker 1: I guess. I mean, I'd rather have this money than nothing. Yeah,
28:19
Speaker 1: fucking whatever. Like, I just want to. And in the
28:22
Speaker 1: most CIA development possible, not long after this settlement, Eric
28:28
Speaker 1: Olsen's sister, her husband, and their kids are killed in
28:31
Speaker 1: a small plane crash. Not long after getting that money,
28:36
Speaker 1: which I'm sure it's nothing. Of course. I'm sure that
28:40
Speaker 1: is just a coincidence. They talk about a bunch of
28:44
Speaker 1: stuff about Eric's collages, which I don't give a shit about.
28:48
Speaker 1: But they do show one of them that has the
28:50
Speaker 1: clock or has the time set for 2.33 a.m. And
28:54
Speaker 1: they kind of hint that he did that before he
28:57
Speaker 1: found out that that's when his dad died. But I
28:59
Speaker 1: don't believe that.
29:01
Speaker 2: Yeah, I kind of don't either. And then even then,
29:03
Speaker 2: that's just what he's predicting the future now. What are
29:06
Speaker 2: you saying here?
29:07
Speaker 1: Yeah. So so then the rest of the episode is
29:11
Speaker 1: about the rest of episode two is Frank at this
29:15
Speaker 1: hotel where he eventually dies. The weirdest part to me,
29:19
Speaker 1: they get back to the hotel and Vincent Rouette says, here,
29:24
Speaker 1: have some of that whiskey the doctor gave you. The
29:27
Speaker 1: show doesn't start for another hour. So he was given
29:30
Speaker 1: whiskey by the psychiatrist he had just seen. Yeah. Which
29:34
Speaker 1: was almost undoubtedly laced with LSD.
29:36
Speaker 2: This is like some 1830s-ass medicine. Take some of that
29:40
Speaker 2: whiskey the doctor just gave you.
29:42
Speaker 1: What? Like, what psychiatrist says, oh, here's what's going to
29:46
Speaker 1: fix your depression? Whiskey. Yeah, yeah. That never happens. But
29:53
Speaker 1: Frank drinks it.
29:53
Speaker 2: Yep. The Civil War dentist gets them all fixed up.
29:58
Speaker 1: He gets right at it, and then they go out
30:00
Speaker 1: to a show, and Frank freaks out while they're at the,
30:05
Speaker 1: it's like a play or some shit. Yeah.
30:07
Speaker 2: And Frank starts wigging out. Man, imagine having the last
30:10
Speaker 2: thing you get to watch before you die be a play.
30:13
Speaker 1: Oh, I would be so angry.
30:14
Speaker 2: Can I at least just check out Pulp Fiction one
30:16
Speaker 2: more time or some porn or something?
30:18
Speaker 1: Can I play a video game?
30:21
Speaker 2: Of all the things to have to choose his last entertainment,
30:24
Speaker 2: a fucking play. Yeah, a play or an opera would
30:27
Speaker 2: really bum me out. Maybe that was the trick. We're
30:29
Speaker 2: going to get him drunk and bored.
30:30
Speaker 1: Hockey. Hockey, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't want to watch
30:33
Speaker 1: any of those things when I'm dying.
30:34
Speaker 2: No, I think he was at this play just like,
30:36
Speaker 2: oh my God, throw me out a fucking window.
30:39
Speaker 1: Probably. And so that's kind of what they cover in
30:45
Speaker 1: episode two. And episode two does feel like it's really
30:49
Speaker 1: drawn out. The first three episodes feel like They could
30:52
Speaker 1: have maybe been compiled into one.
30:55
Speaker 2: I feel like this could have been a bang-in two-hour doc.
30:58
Speaker 1: Yeah. It's a lot to get through, and that part
31:01
Speaker 1: is frustrating. But the story, especially when we get into
31:05
Speaker 1: episode three, right near the end of episode three, really
31:08
Speaker 1: picks up. Yeah. And it gets interesting. But at the
31:12
Speaker 1: end of episode two, Vincent Rouette gets a wake-up call
31:16
Speaker 1: at 2.30 in the morning, which I feel like that
31:19
Speaker 1: part did not happen. Because... As we'll find out in
31:24
Speaker 1: terms of how the murder happened, you're not going to
31:27
Speaker 1: ask for a wake-up call from the front lobby three
31:30
Speaker 1: minutes after the murder is supposed to have happened. Yeah, right. No, actually,
31:35
Speaker 1: maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it was a Lashbrook call. Who
31:40
Speaker 1: the fuck? No, Rouette was in the room with Frank Olson.
31:43
Speaker 1: I'm getting ahead of myself. And I think it's Lashbrook
31:46
Speaker 1: who gets the phone call. But I thought it was
31:49
Speaker 1: weird either way because... Yeah, the other suspicious guy gets
31:51
Speaker 1: a wake-up call. Yeah. Just, I just want to make
31:54
Speaker 1: sure you're up for the murder. But either way, did
31:56
Speaker 1: they not, were phone records not a thing you could
31:59
Speaker 1: trace back? I mean, maybe they weren't. Like, wouldn't the
32:01
Speaker 1: hotel have known?
32:02
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I don't know if you could, I mean,
32:04
Speaker 2: unless you had testimony from, like, the receptionist or whatever,
32:07
Speaker 2: it doesn't seem like there would be, like, a record
32:09
Speaker 2: of that, because this was all in just fucking wire days.
32:13
Speaker 2: One of the dumbest things I've said in the podcast.
32:16
Speaker 2: Back in the wire days. The 2000s, before we knew
32:21
Speaker 2: good television, really. So, yeah, actually, I think it was
32:25
Speaker 2: Ruwak calling. And he calls Lashbrook to say that Frank
32:30
Speaker 2: has disappeared. And Lashbrook says he has to report Frank's
32:35
Speaker 2: disappearance to the security office. And at that point, you
32:38
Speaker 2: think he's dead, but they find Frank just hanging out
32:41
Speaker 2: in the lobby.
32:41
Speaker 1: Yeah. But after they make that call to the security office,
32:46
Speaker 1: everyone's getting watched, basically. And the security office is coming.
32:50
Speaker 1: The security office is a crazy concept in this. I
32:55
Speaker 1: don't know if I put it in the notes, but
32:56
Speaker 1: in one episode, they basically say that the CIA is
33:00
Speaker 1: made up of really smart types. People like me and
33:06
Speaker 1: you would be probably on the investigative side of the
33:10
Speaker 1: CIA and not so much the murder side. Yeah. Like,
33:13
Speaker 1: they make the... We're too.
33:14
Speaker 2: We got too many follow-ups.
33:17
Speaker 1: Right.
33:17
Speaker 2: You know, it's like, do we really want to do
33:19
Speaker 2: a piano wire for this? You know, I feel like
33:23
Speaker 2: Rison would be better. Just hear me out. Yeah, we
33:25
Speaker 2: would overthink it for sure. Yeah, I mean, I had
33:28
Speaker 2: this problem working at Ross Dress for Less where I'd
33:30
Speaker 2: be like... Well, I mean, if we're going to do
33:32
Speaker 2: stock right now, I mean, wouldn't it make more sense
33:35
Speaker 2: to expedite the customers? And they'd be like, shut up
33:37
Speaker 2: and move the boxes. And I'd be like, oh, I forgot.
33:40
Speaker 1: I'm a slave. So yeah, the security office, they imply,
33:45
Speaker 1: is basically the murder wing of the CIA. And the
33:50
Speaker 1: way they put.
33:51
Speaker 2: It- Sounds like a Pokemon attack. Pidgeot used murder wing.
33:55
Speaker 1: The way they put it is that the agents at
33:58
Speaker 1: the time could call the security office and say- This
34:01
Speaker 1: guy's a problem. And the security office would go, okay,
34:04
Speaker 1: we'll come take care of it. And nobody ever talked
34:07
Speaker 1: about why it needed to be done or how it
34:10
Speaker 1: was going to be done. They would just say, all right,
34:13
Speaker 1: we'll be here at this time. Yeah. Be ready.
34:16
Speaker 2: Like the tow truck driver in Blythe where he's just like,
34:19
Speaker 2: God damn it. Triple A sent me out at two
34:21
Speaker 2: in the morning.
34:22
Speaker 1: And this is the United States. Like this is the
34:26
Speaker 1: United States running a, basically a police organization that murders dissidents.
34:32
Speaker 1: That's what this builds up to. And that's terrifying. Dissidents
34:38
Speaker 1: that they.
34:38
Speaker 2: You know, I mean, this guy, we'll dive into this later,
34:41
Speaker 2: but it's like the big issues here are of your
34:43
Speaker 2: own creation, you know? It's like we put the pets
34:47
Speaker 2: down and we also microwaved the pets.
34:51
Speaker 1: You know, like they did both of it. So they
34:53
Speaker 1: got to have a cleanup department. Yeah. So they call
34:57
Speaker 1: the security office, even though they do eventually find Frank.
35:01
Speaker 1: And this is when we're really introduced to Sidney Gottlieb.
35:05
Speaker 1: We had seen him up to this point.
35:07
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's more so just kind of alluded to.
35:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, but now he's really in the picture. And they
35:14
Speaker 1: mentioned that Sidney Gottlieb, who, keep in mind, as we
35:18
Speaker 1: mentioned on the last episode, was the head chemist on
35:21
Speaker 1: the MKUltra program. They also in this suggest that he
35:26
Speaker 1: was linked to attempts to kill Patrice Lumumba and Fidel Castro. Yeah.
35:32
Speaker 1: And this is a quote from the documentary. So to
35:34
Speaker 1: say he's involved in the assassination of Frank Olson isn't
35:38
Speaker 1: much of a leap. I agree with that. Yeah. They
35:41
Speaker 1: call the security office and then Sidney Gottlieb shows up. Well, actually,
35:45
Speaker 1: I think we find out Sidney Gottlieb was there the
35:48
Speaker 1: entire time. Yeah.
35:49
Speaker 2: Like he was just kind of a. just there i
35:52
Speaker 2: was just i was just here to see you know
35:54
Speaker 2: my fair lady on broadway.
35:56
Speaker 1: Or whatever yeah what this seems like to me is
36:00
Speaker 1: them taking one more shot at deciding if frank is
36:05
Speaker 1: really going to be a problem or if there's a
36:08
Speaker 1: way they can fix this like just a couple more
36:11
Speaker 1: days to monitor him yeah before they murder.
36:14
Speaker 2: Him yeah yeah just kind of like let's just double
36:16
Speaker 2: check you know he's Did some good, killed a lot
36:19
Speaker 2: of rabbits for us.
36:20
Speaker 1: Yeah. Either that or they were just kind of laying
36:24
Speaker 1: groundwork to be able to deny murdering him. By going
36:28
Speaker 1: to all these places and saying, he's crazy. We've got
36:31
Speaker 1: to take him to New York. He's crazy. We've got
36:32
Speaker 1: to take him to New York. Everyone would be like, yeah,
36:34
Speaker 1: he was really depressed and he was crazy. And then
36:35
Speaker 1: he jumped off that window when they got to New York.
36:37
Speaker 2: Yeah.
36:38
Speaker 1: But either way, scary. It's really fucking scary. Oh, totally, yeah.
36:42
Speaker 2: I mean, this is like the dude. This is the
36:44
Speaker 2: Nick Fury of mind control killing people.
36:48
Speaker 1: And MKUltra, they touch on a little bit. They mention
36:52
Speaker 1: that Gottlieb and Lashbrook were both at Frank's funeral, or
36:56
Speaker 1: they were at least on the funeral registry, which is harsh. Yeah,
37:01
Speaker 1: that's weird.
37:03
Speaker 2: That's like, all right, easy one, Suge Knight here to
37:06
Speaker 2: see you.
37:08
Speaker 1: It's a lot like that, yeah. And they cut to,
37:13
Speaker 1: at this point, the family going to see Frank, in 1984.
37:18
Speaker 1: And Robert Lashbrook, this is when we find out Sidney
37:22
Speaker 1: Gottlieb was in New York the entire time Frank was there.
37:25
Speaker 1: And up to this point, the family had been told
37:28
Speaker 1: that Sidney Gottlieb was back in D.C., I believe. And
37:34
Speaker 1: Lashbrook lets out that Sidney Gottlieb was there the whole time.
37:38
Speaker 1: So that's the thing that really sends Eric Olson on
37:41
Speaker 1: this path forward. Like, this thing consumes his entire life. Oh, yeah,
37:45
Speaker 1: of course. Which, that's not surprising. The government killed his father. Like,
37:50
Speaker 1: murdered his father.
37:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you're looking for a drum to beat,
37:55
Speaker 2: you know.
37:56
Speaker 1: And it seems like with them being as open as
37:59
Speaker 1: they were.
37:59
Speaker 2: That it was their fault, at least to the extent
38:03
Speaker 2: that he killed himself because he was crazy because they
38:05
Speaker 2: drugged him.
38:06
Speaker 1: Right. They seem to be pretty open about that. And
38:09
Speaker 1: I think that made it easier for... for him to
38:12
Speaker 1: go public with everything else. Yeah, because they'd already made
38:15
Speaker 1: the settlement and all that stuff. Yeah, because at one point,
38:18
Speaker 1: this builds up to them attempting to file criminal murder
38:23
Speaker 1: charges against the CIA. And, man, that probably would have
38:29
Speaker 1: gotten him murdered if not for the fact in the
38:32
Speaker 1: 70s they were so open about, hey, sorry we accidentally
38:35
Speaker 1: killed your dad. Yeah.
38:36
Speaker 2: Like, you can't hardly kill him now. Yeah, I mean,
38:40
Speaker 2: that's at a point where that uses up a lot
38:41
Speaker 2: of that murder data.
38:42
Speaker 1: You know what I mean?
38:43
Speaker 2: Like, how badly do you want this story to go away?
38:45
Speaker 2: And it's not a story you hear a lot about.
38:47
Speaker 2: I mean, we're just finally getting a Netflix documentary about it, what,
38:50
Speaker 2: 32 years later?
38:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's crazy that this wasn't bigger news. Like, I
38:57
Speaker 1: don't remember hearing shit. I mean, a lot of this stuff,
39:00
Speaker 1: this guy doesn't even come across as particularly crazy. No, no,
39:03
Speaker 1: not at all. Like, he seems really... He seems like
39:07
Speaker 1: a guy who's convinced his dad was murdered, and he
39:09
Speaker 1: wants to find out what happened. There's nothing crazy about him.
39:13
Speaker 1: And I'm old enough that, especially as he gets into
39:18
Speaker 1: exhuming his dad's body and filing these lawsuits, I'm old
39:22
Speaker 1: enough that I would have heard that shit in the news. Like,
39:25
Speaker 1: I vividly remember the fucking Iran-Contra hearings. Oh, yeah. And
39:28
Speaker 1: that was, like, 87, 88? Yeah, yeah. So I would
39:32
Speaker 1: have remembered if this was really big news, as it
39:35
Speaker 1: should have been. But it wasn't reported on. But it wasn't, yeah.
39:37
Speaker 2: Because, I mean, there was even more of a bottleneck
39:38
Speaker 2: of disseminating information back then because we didn't have the
39:41
Speaker 2: internet and things like this.
39:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, so it... And again, this is also kind of
39:46
Speaker 1: like a.
39:47
Speaker 2: Like a real murdery sweet spot, you know? Because it's
39:51
Speaker 2: just before Freedom of Information Act, you know? And it's
39:54
Speaker 2: just like, yeah, this is kind of like, you kind
39:56
Speaker 2: of got it in under the wire.
39:57
Speaker 1: Right, yeah, yeah.
39:59
Speaker 2: It's like people that are born just before they had
40:00
Speaker 2: their entire life history, and them saying the N-word on
40:03
Speaker 2: MySpace could come out.
40:04
Speaker 1: It's kind of like that, but with murder. Yeah, yeah,
40:07
Speaker 1: and it seems like it all happened at a time
40:09
Speaker 1: when our government was like, so those Nazis, if you
40:13
Speaker 1: take the Jew stuff out of it... Maybe they were
40:17
Speaker 1: on to something. Very efficient. Yeah.
40:19
Speaker 2: I mean, now we know what happens when you put
40:21
Speaker 2: boiling water into a person with Down syndrome's brain. That's
40:25
Speaker 2: exactly what you would have thought, but now we know
40:27
Speaker 2: for sure.
40:27
Speaker 1: But at least we know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So around
40:31
Speaker 1: this time, they also directly ask Vincent Rouet if Frank
40:35
Speaker 1: Olson was considered a security risk. He refuses to answer
40:38
Speaker 1: the question, so I assume he was considered a security risk. Yeah.
40:43
Speaker 1: There's no reason to not answer that question if the
40:45
Speaker 1: answer isn't yes. So they go to Seymour Hersh, that
40:49
Speaker 1: same investigative journalist who wrote that first article. He makes
40:52
Speaker 1: a bunch of phone calls and says the consensus is
40:55
Speaker 1: that the CIA would not have killed a colleague in 1953.
40:57
Speaker 1: And that's the episode, guys.
41:00
Speaker 2: Thank you.
41:00
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. It's been a lot of fun.
41:02
Speaker 1: It has been real. Follow us on the socials. But
41:07
Speaker 1: then he also tells Eric, That he is smart enough
41:11
Speaker 1: to know he shouldn't go digging around in this story.
41:16
Speaker 2: That's like the fucking, it's always the most upsetting part
41:19
Speaker 2: when there's these kind of people in the middle of you.
41:21
Speaker 2: It's like, okay, well, I'm talking to the guy down
41:23
Speaker 2: here who's looking into it. I'm talking to the guys
41:25
Speaker 2: up here who knows what's going on. He's just kind
41:27
Speaker 2: of like. Let's just stay in this comfortable gray area.
41:30
Speaker 2: I mean, do you need a piece of paper that
41:32
Speaker 2: says they did it?
41:33
Speaker 1: I feel like you know what happens.
41:34
Speaker 2: Let's just take our $ 750, 000 and shut the fuck up.
41:38
Speaker 1: And that's kind of Seymour Hersh's plot line in this.
41:43
Speaker 1: Because at the end, he gives these interviews basically saying, yeah,
41:48
Speaker 1: they murdered his dad. And I have seen evidence of it.
41:53
Speaker 1: But the person who showed me the evidence, like, I
41:56
Speaker 1: can't reveal it without giving away that source, which will
42:00
Speaker 1: probably get that person killed. Yeah. And it's this, I mean,
42:04
Speaker 1: I know we're jumping way ahead to the end, but
42:06
Speaker 1: it's a really frustrating ending. Yeah. Because you want to
42:10
Speaker 1: see that evidence. You want to hear from that person.
42:13
Speaker 1: But he just repeatedly keeps saying, I can't write the
42:16
Speaker 1: article because I can't verify the information without putting people
42:22
Speaker 1: at risk. Yeah. But he basically confirms without confirming that
42:27
Speaker 1: the CIA executed this guy.
42:28
Speaker 2: He gives you the I'm not touching you kind of
42:31
Speaker 2: fucking treatment.
42:33
Speaker 1: So they go see Sidney Gottlieb. Gottlieb, the first thing
42:36
Speaker 1: he says is how the old him did things he's
42:41
Speaker 1: not proud of, but that the new him can't really
42:44
Speaker 1: remember them because he's disassociated himself from that old him. Oh, man. Yikes.
42:50
Speaker 2: High school boyfriend Sidney Gottlieb Ways in to say, I'm
42:55
Speaker 2: really sorry about Summer. But I mean, that's Summer Sidney,
42:59
Speaker 2: all right? School's in session, Sidney.
43:01
Speaker 1: I'm a good boy. Try to get my GPA up,
43:04
Speaker 1: go off to school. What a creepy thing to say. Like,
43:08
Speaker 1: just say yes. Just say, yeah, we murdered him. What
43:11
Speaker 1: are you going to do about it? Yeah, just kind
43:13
Speaker 1: of just be like, give him a look. And then
43:17
Speaker 1: walk out of the room and shoot yourself in the head,
43:20
Speaker 1: like in a movie. Yeah, that would be great. Yeah.
43:22
Speaker 1: That's how this is supposed to end. Yeah, you found me.
43:25
Speaker 2: So that your kid can know how this guy's kid
43:28
Speaker 2: feels and countless other kids who didn't have enough initiative
43:33
Speaker 2: to get a documentary made about their dads. Yeah, I
43:36
Speaker 2: used to work in geology, and then I made rock
43:38
Speaker 2: golems that were designed to kill Jews, and then I
43:41
Speaker 2: fell out of a window.
43:43
Speaker 1: So they do a lot of, at this point, dramatic
43:49
Speaker 1: reenactments of the agents. At one point, they try to
43:54
Speaker 1: take Frank home, and they decide he's still too sad.
43:59
Speaker 1: So they stop at Sidney Gottlieb's house, where, of course...
44:02
Speaker 1: Who could cheer him up better, you know? And the
44:04
Speaker 1: implication is that he's given more LSD at this point.
44:08
Speaker 1: Because remember, he starts dancing around in the living room,
44:11
Speaker 1: and he does a handstand in the living room. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
44:15
Speaker 2: And it's like, this is, I mean, you've dosed enough people.
44:18
Speaker 2: You've got to see that this is not how it works.
44:22
Speaker 1: Right.
44:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's send him back into the weird psychedelia matrix
44:25
Speaker 2: so he can fix himself.
44:27
Speaker 1: It's kind of like, no. Yeah, I feel like they
44:31
Speaker 1: were just kind of trying to make him crazy enough
44:35
Speaker 1: to just kill himself. Yeah. Yeah. And I think eventually
44:38
Speaker 1: they ran out of time and just had to murder him.
44:40
Speaker 2: Yeah, and his spirit was too strong, and they're just like, okay, well.
44:43
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so Frank and Lashbrook go back to New York.
44:47
Speaker 1: Vincent Rouette goes home. And this is where things get
44:52
Speaker 1: really interesting, near the end of episode three, because we
44:55
Speaker 1: find out Frank was convinced the U.S. had used biological
44:59
Speaker 1: weapons in Korea. During the Korean War. Yeah. And we
45:04
Speaker 1: see all of these videos of U.S. soldiers confessing to
45:07
Speaker 1: dropping chemical weapons on people, which since then, like, that's
45:11
Speaker 1: kind of what the Manchurian Candidate is based on. That's
45:15
Speaker 1: the government's... Yeah, these people coming home from war. Yeah.
45:18
Speaker 1: And the argument when these videos actually happened was the
45:22
Speaker 1: government was saying, oh, they're brainwashing our boys and making
45:26
Speaker 1: them tell these lies. Yeah. But were they? Were they
45:30
Speaker 1: or did we drop chemical weapons on Korea?
45:32
Speaker 2: Easier than killing a bunch of soldiers is just to
45:35
Speaker 2: make them look crazy, like with all these things.
45:38
Speaker 1: And we're fresh off of having dropped the first atomic
45:41
Speaker 1: bomb in the history of modern warfare, depending on what
45:45
Speaker 1: conspiracy theories you believe. Yeah. And I don't know. Am
45:49
Speaker 1: I supposed to believe we wouldn't drop chemical weapons on Korea.
45:53
Speaker 2: In the 50s or the 40s? Sounds like us, you know?
45:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
45:57
Speaker 2: Nixon and Eisenhower in the White House?
45:59
Speaker 1: Yeah. And it's fascinating. Like, there's one soldier who, one
46:03
Speaker 1: of the videos, he says, we dropped a bomb that
46:06
Speaker 1: was a dud. And what it actually was was filled
46:09
Speaker 1: with this biological agent, which we find out are bugs.
46:13
Speaker 1: They dropped insects on Korea is basically the theory. Yeah.
46:18
Speaker 1: And that this spread all of this. I don't remember
46:21
Speaker 1: what disease they were spreading, but. That's basically what we
46:26
Speaker 1: find out is that Frank Olson found out about this
46:29
Speaker 1: and was really upset about it. Yeah. Maybe.
46:33
Speaker 2: Allegedly, yeah. But, I mean, it all kind of tracks. Like,
46:36
Speaker 2: I wouldn't put it past us. I mean, this is
46:38
Speaker 2: exactly the kind of impetus they'd need for killing this guy.
46:41
Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, for sure. It all seems to be there.
46:44
Speaker 1: And a thing Frank Olson said to his boss at
46:48
Speaker 1: one point is brought up, can't I just disappear? And
46:54
Speaker 1: at the time, like at the beginning of the documentary,
46:58
Speaker 1: if you hear that, you think, well, he's just depressed
47:02
Speaker 1: and sad because they gave him this LSD and it
47:05
Speaker 1: fucked with his head. And then you hear it in
47:07
Speaker 1: this context and it's like, do you have to murder
47:10
Speaker 1: me or can I just disappear? Yeah.
47:12
Speaker 2: Can I just, can I just work at like a,
47:15
Speaker 2: like a, like a better call Saul, like a Quizno
47:17
Speaker 2: sandwich shop somewhere and, Can I just make $ 32, 000 a
47:21
Speaker 2: year and tell my kids to shut up?
47:23
Speaker 1: So this episode ends with Sidney Lashbrook getting up and
47:28
Speaker 1: going to the bathroom around 2.30 in the morning. And
47:32
Speaker 1: at that point, it sounds like someone comes in the room.
47:35
Speaker 1: He's sharing a room with Frank Olson. Yeah. Separate beds.
47:39
Speaker 2: Just a couple dudes out, you know, making a theater
47:41
Speaker 2: trip to New York City.
47:43
Speaker 1: Nothing weird about that. Yeah. So that's how episode three ends.
47:48
Speaker 1: And cut to episode four. There's more Hamlet references, which
47:53
Speaker 1: fucking stop it. But they also do a really quick
47:58
Speaker 1: thing with the night manager at the Hotel Statler, which
48:02
Speaker 1: is where Frank Olsen died. The night manager who was
48:05
Speaker 1: working at the time.
48:06
Speaker 2: I'm sure you just go by the comedian.
48:08
Speaker 1: That's weird. He said that Lashbrook told him, quote, I
48:13
Speaker 1: heard glass crack and he went out the window. This
48:16
Speaker 1: night manager is convinced this is a murder. Yeah. Which,
48:19
Speaker 1: so am I by this point. And one of the
48:23
Speaker 1: craziest coincidences I think I have ever heard in my
48:29
Speaker 1: life happens early on in episode four, where Eric Olsen
48:34
Speaker 1: is talking to a friend of his about how he
48:37
Speaker 1: wishes he could dig up his dad's body and examine
48:41
Speaker 1: it to see if the things that happened to him,
48:44
Speaker 1: like if there's any evidence that he's being lied to.
48:48
Speaker 1: And the friend just casually says, hey, you know Jim
48:51
Speaker 1: Stars that we went to school with? He exhumes dead
48:54
Speaker 1: bodies as part of criminal cases. That's what he does
48:57
Speaker 1: for a living now. He's famous for it.
48:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like when you see those weird Facebook posts,
49:01
Speaker 2: you're like, yeah, I need a guy who specializes in
49:03
Speaker 2: Arizona vehicular law.
49:06
Speaker 1: And it's like, oh, yeah, what? You? Really? No, I
49:08
Speaker 1: got a guy. A guy sat next to him in
49:10
Speaker 1: history class? And so, yeah, they decide to reach out
49:13
Speaker 1: to Jim Stars, Eric's old childhood friend who digs up
49:17
Speaker 1: dead bodies for criminal cases, and they exhume the body
49:22
Speaker 1: of Frank Olson. And Eric talks about seeing the body,
49:26
Speaker 1: and if there's any part in this where Eric Olson
49:30
Speaker 1: seems a little weird, it's in talking about the dead body.
49:34
Speaker 1: Which- Understandable, I guess. Yeah. But he points out, he
49:38
Speaker 1: says he touched the skull, but since that revelation and
49:42
Speaker 1: the silence that followed it wasn't awkward enough, he also
49:46
Speaker 1: adds that you could, quote, even make out the penis. Like,
49:54
Speaker 1: not the jawbone, nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
49:56
Speaker 2: I mean, did they clove him on the dick, thinking, like,
49:59
Speaker 2: no kid would want to look at their dead dad's
50:01
Speaker 2: dick to... See signs of forced trauma.
50:04
Speaker 1: But what's interesting is the body, the point Eric's getting
50:09
Speaker 1: at is the body is shockingly well-preserved for having been
50:13
Speaker 1: buried this long. Like, it's not just a skeleton. Like,
50:17
Speaker 1: there's still some skin and things on it. And they're
50:20
Speaker 1: able to determine that, for one thing, there's no signs
50:24
Speaker 1: of the body going through glass. Yeah, which is... Which,
50:27
Speaker 1: if you dove through a window... You're gonna be tore up. Right.
50:30
Speaker 2: Right.
50:31
Speaker 1: And what that implies is that someone broke the glass
50:35
Speaker 1: out first and then jumped, which he could have done also.
50:38
Speaker 2: Yeah.
50:38
Speaker 1: But there's also a hematoma on his forehead that the
50:44
Speaker 1: medical examiner claimed was from him going through the window.
50:48
Speaker 1: So if you hit the window with your forehead and
50:50
Speaker 1: go through, you're going to have glass that's going to
50:53
Speaker 1: come into contact with the rest of your body. Yeah.
50:56
Speaker 1: So one of those two things.
50:56
Speaker 2: So he broke it with his forehead and then threw
50:58
Speaker 2: himself out.
50:59
Speaker 1: Right.
51:01
Speaker 2: And.
51:02
Speaker 1: So basically, Star goes on TV and says Frank Olson
51:07
Speaker 1: was murdered. And this is the part that really blew
51:12
Speaker 1: my mind and makes me think we should do this
51:15
Speaker 1: for the episode. Eric Olson hears about CIA assassination manuals
51:20
Speaker 1: and just calls someone at the CIA and was like, hey,
51:23
Speaker 1: are those a real thing? And can people see them?
51:26
Speaker 1: And they're like, which one do you want? And they
51:30
Speaker 1: send him.
51:30
Speaker 2: Yeah. all of these assassination manuals, and in one of them,
51:35
Speaker 2: it says the preferred method of killing someone is to
51:40
Speaker 2: drop them out of a window and that you should,
51:45
Speaker 2: when the authorities arrive, say you left the room and
51:48
Speaker 2: that when you came back, the person had gone through
51:51
Speaker 2: the window and you have no, you just play the
51:53
Speaker 2: distraught friend who was there when someone committed suicide. And
51:57
Speaker 2: you don't even send a one and he's like, where's
52:00
Speaker 2: page 31 and 32?
52:01
Speaker 1: You know, you got it all in there. Yeah, he
52:04
Speaker 1: specifies what he's looking for and they just go, oh,
52:07
Speaker 1: you want the first one?
52:08
Speaker 2: Oh, yay.
52:09
Speaker 1: So not long after the CIA publishes its first assassination
52:13
Speaker 1: manual about how a great way to kill a person,
52:16
Speaker 1: they also say you should strike a blow above their
52:19
Speaker 1: right or left eye to incapacitate them first and then
52:23
Speaker 1: drop them out a window. Yeah, which is exactly what
52:25
Speaker 1: it looks like happened here. Exactly what fucking happened to
52:28
Speaker 1: Frank Olson. Yeah. And that, That's what the rest of
52:33
Speaker 1: the documentary becomes, is looking into whether this was... Or
52:38
Speaker 1: not even looking into, just discussing the fact that this wasn't...
52:42
Speaker 1: Like a buy the book, you know? Yeah, it wasn't
52:44
Speaker 1: the CIA drugging someone and he went crazy and killed
52:48
Speaker 1: himself and they did an oopsie. They fucking assassinated this guy.
52:53
Speaker 1: And the implication is that it was because... What I
52:58
Speaker 1: think happened is he took LSD and turned into a
53:02
Speaker 1: fucking peacenik and was like, man, what we're doing in
53:04
Speaker 1: the war is wrong.
53:06
Speaker 2: Like these fucking chemical weapons in Korea are no good.
53:09
Speaker 1: I mean, these rabbits didn't do anything to anybody. And
53:13
Speaker 1: at that point, he knows too much for you to
53:18
Speaker 1: let him go. Yeah.
53:21
Speaker 2: And then also you shouldn't hire people and then LSD
53:23
Speaker 2: the shit out of them.
53:24
Speaker 1: Lesson learned. And yeah, it seemed like once I heard that,
53:31
Speaker 1: I was like, well, the documentary could be over right
53:34
Speaker 1: now because that's clearly what happened. And from there, episode five,
53:42
Speaker 1: there's some really crazy shit. For one thing, we find
53:46
Speaker 1: out that one of the people they took him to see,
53:49
Speaker 1: in addition to Dr. Abramson in New York, was a
53:54
Speaker 1: magician named John Mulholland. Yeah. And their reasoning for this was.
53:59
Speaker 2: Because when you're questioning reality, nothing better than a card trick.
54:03
Speaker 1: And that's the thing. They were like, well, their reasoning
54:07
Speaker 1: for this, or the official explanation was, well, we thought
54:10
Speaker 1: it would cheer him up. And then we find out
54:13
Speaker 1: John Mulholland... also wrote a sleight-of-hand manual for the CIA
54:19
Speaker 1: about how to spike drinks without anyone seeing it. Oh, God.
54:24
Speaker 1: So I get the sense that Frank was just watching
54:27
Speaker 1: so hard and was like, don't you put anything in
54:30
Speaker 1: my drink. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were like, let's take
54:31
Speaker 1: him to Mulholland. He'll get them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean,
54:34
Speaker 1: it's so funny.
54:35
Speaker 2: It's like, if you're going to go on this entertainment
54:40
Speaker 2: trip to New York City, you're just like, well, it's
54:41
Speaker 2: already on the payroll. I mean, this will really cut
54:44
Speaker 2: out some of the some of the accounting work on
54:47
Speaker 2: this whole assassination.
54:48
Speaker 1: Yeah.
54:49
Speaker 2: It's like you can't even see a third-party magician.
54:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's such a, like, from there, the rest
54:57
Speaker 1: of the documentary is just them kind of talking about
55:01
Speaker 1: this being a cover story. Like, I feel like it
55:05
Speaker 1: did get a little long. The Seymour Hersh stuff, which
55:07
Speaker 1: we already brought up, happens in episode six, which there's
55:11
Speaker 1: a whole lot on that, and it is interesting hearing
55:13
Speaker 1: him talking about his source and what he may or
55:16
Speaker 1: may have not heard. But basically, Seymour Hersh confirms that
55:21
Speaker 1: this was a murder. This was an execution carried out
55:25
Speaker 1: by the CIA. Hey, can't blow up my spot. He
55:29
Speaker 1: also hints that it wasn't just a one-off thing. It
55:34
Speaker 1: was just a program we had in place to deal
55:38
Speaker 1: with dissidents at the time in the United States, which...
55:42
Speaker 1: what are the chances that's not happening anymore?
55:45
Speaker 2: Like, I mean, yeah, I mean, it's at this point,
55:48
Speaker 2: I'm sure the program has evolved. I mean, because looking
55:52
Speaker 2: at it in retrospect seems a bit sloppy, you know?
55:56
Speaker 1: Yeah.
55:56
Speaker 2: I wonder what it's going to be. I wonder what
55:57
Speaker 2: we're going to find out. It is, you know, in
55:59
Speaker 2: our time right now, what the kind of a standard
56:02
Speaker 2: operating procedure for, for taking someone out of the system is.
56:05
Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know. Probably like, sexual abuse allegations or something.
56:10
Speaker 2: Maybe you're just like, yeah, enjoy your new free self-driving
56:13
Speaker 2: car courtesy of the CIA.
56:17
Speaker 1: So yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot more we
56:19
Speaker 1: could go into, but I don't want to give the
56:20
Speaker 1: whole documentary away. Uh, especially not the interesting episodes, which
56:25
Speaker 1: are episodes three through six. Yeah. I did like it
56:28
Speaker 1: better the second time I watched it. The first time
56:30
Speaker 1: I was like, I was in Wisconsin and I was
56:33
Speaker 1: probably smoking a ton of weed. And just sitting on
56:36
Speaker 1: my mom's couch, like as a good conspiracy buff should. Yeah. Yeah, really.
56:41
Speaker 2: That's really recharging the batteries.
56:44
Speaker 1: And I don't know. I just wasn't as into it.
56:47
Speaker 1: But the second time around, I liked it a lot more.
56:50
Speaker 2: Yeah, I dug it. It was kind of a little
56:52
Speaker 2: up and down. But I mean, at the end of it,
56:54
Speaker 2: it all felt pretty worth it.
56:56
Speaker 1: Yeah. So people should watch it. That's Wormwood. Yeah.
56:59
Speaker 2: It's... You know, let's... Be aware of Eric Olson's struggle here,
57:05
Speaker 2: because it's an important one.
57:07
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think they make a pretty convincing case
57:10
Speaker 1: that this was probably... It definitely makes me want to
57:14
Speaker 1: look into us using chemical weapons in Korea a lot more. Oh, yeah, definitely.
57:19
Speaker 2: Because, I mean, yeah, just a weird fucking dropping a
57:21
Speaker 2: suitcase full of bugs.
57:22
Speaker 1: Because at one point, they bring up 9-11, and I'm like, shit,
57:26
Speaker 1: did we do 9-11 to cover the fact that we
57:28
Speaker 1: murdered this guy in the 50s? Yeah, I mean... Like,
57:30
Speaker 1: it just keeps going down this rabbit hole. It's like every.
57:33
Speaker 2: Like, wait, so you cut off your dick so she
57:37
Speaker 2: wouldn't find out you got herpes because you cheated on her? Like...
57:40
Speaker 2: It's one of those things. At a certain point, she'd
57:42
Speaker 2: be like, oops. And we'd be like, ah, why you?
57:45
Speaker 2: And it would eventually get better. But it's always just like, oh, fuck.
57:48
Speaker 2: They're coming over in six minutes, Adam. Yeah, I think it.
57:51
Speaker 1: Just, especially with that assassination manual out there, it would
57:55
Speaker 1: be hard to go, yeah. But just him. We just
57:59
Speaker 1: murdered him. No, just this one guy. After that, we
58:01
Speaker 1: realized it was a bad idea.
58:02
Speaker 2: Yeah.
58:02
Speaker 1: Yeah. But it's not, because we still don't know anything
58:05
Speaker 1: about chemical weapons in Korea.
58:06
Speaker 2: This is how I'm looking at the CIA going forward
58:09
Speaker 2: with this show, is that the CIA is just a
58:11
Speaker 2: bad boyfriend.
58:13
Speaker 1: Yeah. You know? Yeah, kind of.
58:15
Speaker 2: Got into this, wanted to do the right thing, and
58:17
Speaker 2: then it fucks up, and it just keeps, like, you know,
58:20
Speaker 2: leading you on and making you feel crazy for looking
58:22
Speaker 2: into it.
58:23
Speaker 1: A manipulative boyfriend. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate. So,
58:28
Speaker 1: that's Wormwood. Everyone should go watch it. When the fuck
58:31
Speaker 1: does this come out? Weeks from now. Yeah, weeks. Sometime
58:35
Speaker 1: in March. What do we got to plug? This is
58:39
Speaker 1: a free episode? I think we said it was Patreon. Oh, no. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
58:43
Speaker 1: It was Patreon only. So don't worry about subscribing. You
58:46
Speaker 1: already do that, baby. You're already in the know, kids. Hey,
58:49
Speaker 1: call our voicemail line. We're going to start taking voicemails
58:52
Speaker 1: on our episodes like we used to. 505-386-7677 or 505-3
58:55
Speaker 1: on Pops. For the love of God, specify what show
58:56
Speaker 1: you're calling about. Man, love those voicemails. They're fucking wild.
59:04
Speaker 1: Always so much fun.
59:05
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a great time.
59:06
Speaker 1: Looking forward to getting back into those. And what do
59:09
Speaker 1: you got to plug? Oh, boy.
59:10
Speaker 2: I'm going to be on tour all over the place
59:12
Speaker 2: with the Mean Boys podcast, doing stand-up live podcasts. We're
59:15
Speaker 2: going to Wisconsin, Chicago, Fort Wayne, Indiana, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Philly, D.C.,
59:21
Speaker 2: and New York City. All throughout the month of April.
59:24
Speaker 2: Tickets for that are on meboyspodcast.com. A couple dates for myself. Personally,
59:27
Speaker 2: I'm going to be in Austin, Texas, headlining the Velveeta Room.
59:31
Speaker 2: Really cool little comedy club run by some great guys.
59:33
Speaker 2: That's happening in June. The exact dates of which escape me.
59:36
Speaker 2: And right here in Southern California, I'm going to be
59:38
Speaker 2: headlining the Ontario Improv for my Adam Todd Brown birthday
59:41
Speaker 2: without Adam Todd Brown.
59:43
Speaker 1: Spectacular. March 20th.
59:45
Speaker 2: Go on my Twitter and grab some free tickets for that.
59:47
Speaker 1: That'll be a lot of fun. All right. Let's get
59:49
Speaker 1: the fuck out of here. Connor, say goodbye. Peace, guys. Goodbye, everybody.
59:53
Speaker 1: We love you. People of Earth, your planet is about
1:00:02
Speaker 1: to be destroyed.