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The South Side Blueprint with Rick Hahn · Rosters to Rings Podcast

• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to Rosterster Rings. I'm honored to be joined
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: again by John Daniels as the guest host. Second segment,
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: we got a tremendous guest for you. Rick On will
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: be joining us former White Sox GM twenty three seasons
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: he worked for the White Sox JAD. It's the trade
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: deadline season. I thought we would kick this off with
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: a little conversation about one situation where we sold big
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: and one where we bought big. But let's start with
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: the sale of Mark to Serrick. Can you give the
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: listeners a little background as to what it went into
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: that and the negotiation with Hall of Famer John Shirholds.
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So we're we're talking about the summer of two
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: thousand and seven. Fed and myself and a number of
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: others had our first year in administration there in Texas's
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: or running the group in Texas' two thousand and six,
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: and yeah, we had a basically a five hundred season
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: in six. Probably made some moves before we were ready to.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: You know, we uh a couple of things that I
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: think we might do over had we had a chance.
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: And really we looked at O seven as that opportunity,
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: and you know, Tom Hicks was the owner at the.
• 1:11
  Speaker 3: Time, and and uh, you know, we had.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: Laid out to him before that season and hey, if
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: things don't get off to a good.
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: Start, this is you know, a reality that not the reality.
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: You know, it sounds negative, but it's also an opportunity
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: to to you know, launch the franchise forward. And so
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: the biggest chip that we had was Mark to Chera.
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: He had a year and a half remaining under his
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: h you know, the first contract that he had signed there,
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: and we thought it was very unlikely that we could
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: extend him. And then we had some very loose conversations
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: with about an extension, but he was gonna he wanted
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: to test the markets as his right and he obviously
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: did very well. But a year and a half later
• 1:52
  Speaker 2: with with the Yankees, uh, and then won a World
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: Series with them.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: But that was the big chow.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: And he was a very unique player, was you know,
• 2:01
  Speaker 2: mid twenties, switch hitting, gold glove, power, hitting patients, you know,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: all everything you want out of a player. Very durable
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: as well, and so there was a pretty robust market Atlanta.
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: John Schuerholtz was the GM at the time, and they
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: were you know, fourteenth straight division titles and just an
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: unbelievable run. And John was very clear that this was,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: you know, the player that he wanted to go get
• 2:27
  Speaker 2: and he had They had a strong farm system at
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: the time. If you recall, you know, other people were
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: telling us be careful dealing with Atlanta. They know their
• 2:35
  Speaker 2: prospects better than anybody else, and and this, this, that
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: and the other. And we did a really thorough but
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: we we had the benefit of knowing early in the
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: summer that that's the big move we're going to make,
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: that we're going to sell, So we had our scouts
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: really canvassing, and I think one of the critical decisions
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: we made was that we were willing to go, you know,
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: further down into a farm system that we were not
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: what we wanted some upper level players, specific players, you know,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: we were cognized to the fact that you know, Atlanta
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: had a you know, a certain group of guys that
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: they wanted to win with and some young.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: Players might help them.
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: And and the fact in fact, we're willing to go
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: to a ball for Elvis Andrews or short season ball
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: for Neftali Feliz I think opened up some different, you know,
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: higher end talents that we wouldn't have been able to
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: get to get if we had, you know, only wanted access.
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: To you know, Triple A players or double A players.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: And so I think Arizona was in Boston, was in
• 3:36
  Speaker 3: the Yankees.
• 3:37
  Speaker 2: The Dodgers for some Anaheim absolutely and for some reason,
• 3:42
  Speaker 2: you know, the Dodgers wouldn't put the local left hander
• 3:45
  Speaker 2: in Clayton Kershaw, who was you know, hadn't gotten to
• 3:47
  Speaker 2: the big leagues yet, uh Ned Colletti was was rightly
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: uh reluctant to include him in the deal. Bill Stoneman
• 3:55
  Speaker 2: and Anaheim I remember taught us, taught me a good lesson,
• 3:59
  Speaker 2: as you know. I told him there's kind of attacks
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: for dealing in the division, and he said, well, it
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: shouldn't it be the other way around that. You know,
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: You're only gonna have to watch mark to share in
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: your division for a year or so, and I'm gonna
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: have to watch these guys for the rest of their careers.
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: But ultimately Atlanta was the most aggressive and and you know,
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: we got down it was gonna be a four player
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: deal ended up being a five player deal. Bo Jones
• 4:23
  Speaker 2: and another left hander got put in the deal because
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: of a little bit of a medical concern on one
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: of the players that thankfully didn't didn't play out that way.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: But Matt Harrison, left handed starter, played a big role
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: on our you know good clubs. Jared Saltilamachia, uh, you know,
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: very good, big leader and ultimately wins the World Series.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: And in Boston, Elvis Andrews was now Rangers Hall of Famer.
• 4:46
  Speaker 2: It was a shortstop kind of anchor on that that
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: team provided energy as well as defense and base running
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: and all the other pieces. And then f Tali Feles
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: was was our closers. So really, uh, you know, our
• 4:58
  Speaker 2: scouts did an unbelievable job ownership supporting us and making
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: a pretty tough deal to make, right when you're not
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: bringing anybody back. That's a name brand, so to speak.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: But that deal, along with some other really good scouting
• 5:13
  Speaker 2: and development stories, really changed the trajectory of the franchise.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: You know, JD. One thing I remember about that trade,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: in addition to what you're talking about, or two things, actually,
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: one was Elvis and Andres was available in part because
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: Atlanta was so deep at shortstop, so it was effectively
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: like their third best prospect shortstop or they had big
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: leaguers who were ready, and then so they had a
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: little surplus there, so we were able to tap into that.
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: We were very systematic about that. And then two was
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: we had done our homework on John Schorholds, who as
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: a Hall of Famer, but one thing that we had
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: seen as a pattern of behavior was that he was
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: willing to trade high upside arms provided that he thought
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: they could only be relievers. Now Tali Folles kind of
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: fit that profile, so we kind of got him snuck
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: in as maybe the third or fourth player in the
• 5:59
  Speaker 1: deal when we were valuing him closer to the second
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: player in the deal, in part because I think we
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: had really researched John, and John had traded a lot
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: of those guys away and they hadn't really panned out
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: or they had really netted him tremendous returns. But in
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: that case, I think we were able to enhance the
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: return in both those guys instances somewhat circumstantially. But also
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: because we had done a ton of homework through the process,
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: because I think we recognized this was our best asset
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: and we couldn't miss on this deal, and we were
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: fortunate enough really not to miss on the deal.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: I think two things that stand out there. One, you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: you're talking about how aggressive John wanted to be, and
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: he was very clear from the get go, and so
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: we were. You know, we had canvassed five or six systems.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: There was one other club that came in a little
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: bit later in the process that made a pretty good offer.
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: We just couldn't.
• 6:49
  Speaker 2: We were so comfortable with the work we had done,
• 6:52
  Speaker 2: and we had done some work on this other club,
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: but not to the same degree that you know it was.
• 6:56
  Speaker 2: It was also would have been a good baseball trade,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: it would have been probably not quite as good. It
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: would have been a good deal. We just the level
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: of work we had done, the level of conviction we had,
• 7:07
  Speaker 2: and these players was just at a different levels. I
• 7:10
  Speaker 2: do think getting in early, you know, allows the other
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: cloud to do more work and be more comfortable with that.
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: I think the second thing that one of the things
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: I learned from it was, you know, we got a
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: lot of calls right after that we made the trade
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: on on Salton Lamachi in particular. You know, he was
• 7:27
  Speaker 2: again a switch hitting catcher. He had a great arm
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: power from both sides patients, and and we got probably
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: should have listened. You know, we probably should have been
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: a little more open than we were. I think you
• 7:39
  Speaker 2: get anchored, you get you fall in love with these guys.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Now you just announced to the world that we have
• 7:44
  Speaker 2: we traded this, you know, go glove fall star player,
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: and salt Lamachi was the closest to I mean he
• 7:51
  Speaker 2: went right to the big league. He was the closest
• 7:52
  Speaker 2: to being big league ready, so he was somewhat the headliner.
• 7:56
  Speaker 2: I think we got a little anchored in that position,
• 7:58
  Speaker 2: and hindsight what it was, you know, we might have
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: done even better had we been open to talk about
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: Saltomachia soon after.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: And that's saying something because that that deal in and
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: of itself totally changed the trajectory of the franchise, and
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: those guys played and packed that team for the next decade.
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: I want to shift it to one of our bigger buys.
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: And most people want to talk to you about Cliff Lee.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about Coal Hammils and
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: it's for a few reasons. One is it's the years
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: twenty fifteen, and let me just paint the picture for you.
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: The Rangers were three games under five hundred. They were
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: eight games back of the first place, Houston Astros. We
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: were sporting a negative forty four run differential at the time,
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: which was the fourth worst in the American League. And
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: you walk into the war room and say, hey, listen,
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: let's go get cold Coal Hammils. And then I remember
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: distinctly when you're talking to the media, the entire nature
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: of their questions was like, oh, you're building for the future,
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: because Coal Hamil's we were going to control for the
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: next couple of years. And you said, no, we're trying
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: to win the division right now. We just made the
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: move to do it, get it done. And I think
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: there was like this amazing ripple through our whole organization,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: through our whole clubhouse of oh my god, he believes
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: in us. And then I remember you just think was
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: sharing the story about John Hart's influence on you, and
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: he said, and I'm paraphrasing here, but something to the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: effect of, if the team is doing its part, it's
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: up to the front office to do their part of
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: the trade deadline. Well, you at the foresight to think
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: almost a year in advance and say, I think this,
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: we have the ability to bounce back. We end up
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: running away with the division. After that we end up
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: going to the playoffs that you're you believed in them,
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: You believed in the team, you believe this was the
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: move to make talk a little bit about that if
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: you would.
• 9:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like you said, twenty fourteen was just a Murphy's law.
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Anything that could go wrong did. And then fifteen you know,
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: it starts off in spring training, you know, Jef Banister's
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: first year with US, and and you Darbush goes out
• 10:01
  Speaker 2: with TJ and so our ace. We lose and we
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: get off to the slow start.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: Uh.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: And it felt a little like here we go again
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: at the beginning. But then you started to see to
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: John Hart's point, you started this team. Yeah we were
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: a couple of games under five hundred, but they were
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: they were in every game. This wasn't we were not
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: playing bad baseball. The energy level was was outstanding. You
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: had some veteran guys like like Adrian Beltray who you know,
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: I felt like we owed it to, you know, having
• 10:29
  Speaker 2: having chosen to sign with US ultimately Hall of Famer
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Prince Fielder and others Shin Shinsu Chu and kolbe Lewis,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: and it's just there was a it was a nice
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: blend of veteran guys and younger players, but there was
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: we were in every game and they played the right way,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: and you just felt like we were a little better
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: than our record, and so I don't think we would
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: have gone, you know, as heavy, and we didn't go
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: heavy on on rental players because we were we weren't
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: blind to the fact that standings were what they are.
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: But you had somebody like Cole Hamil's who you know,
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: as decorated occur as he had and still had I
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: think three more years of control under on his contract.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Then we got Jake Deekman in that same deal. You know,
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: we trade made another trade to bolster a bullpen with
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: a young reliever and Sam Dyson. At the time, it
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: was kind of a now in future move, right, I mean,
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: it wasn't. We didn't go all in on that roster
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: so much as we were, you know, continuing to layer
• 11:27
  Speaker 2: in pieces players clubhouse fits that you know, felt made
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: us better then but also made us better the next
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: couple of years.
• 11:35
  Speaker 3: And very fortunately it played out just like that.
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I just would say from sitting very close to
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: you through that process, you know, we all aspire to
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: enhance the sense of confidence in the clubhouse and to
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: build a championship culture. I've never seen one singular move
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: volta franchise forward like that one did in that instance,
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: just relative to how the team was doing. Cliffley had
• 11:59
  Speaker 1: a profound impact on the organization. But at that time
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: we were clearly the best team in the American League West.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: We were tracking to the playoffs. In this case, I
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: think that singular move and the statement that made that
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: move made really propelled the franchise forward to extend what
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: was already a pretty lofty playoff window. You know, during
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: that time in which we end up going to the
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: playoffs I think six of seven seasons. So that was
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: a tremendous thing to witness, palpable to feel and to
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: see the results on the field was really incredible. Please
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: stay with us through the break here at Rosters Rings.
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: On the other side, we're going to be talking to
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: Rick Han trade Deadline, his history with the Chicago White
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Sox and some of the amazing moves he made along
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: the way. Welcome back to Rosters to Rings on behalf
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: of John Daniels. We are delighted to bring on Rickhn
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: as our next guest. After hitting the academic trifecta of
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: Michigan undergrad, Harvard Law School, and Northwestern Business School. In
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: two thousand, Rick gets his start in baseball working for
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the esteemed sports agency Steinberg, Morad and Done. He then
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: joins the Chicago White Sox heading into the two thousand
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: and two season, where he ultimately spends twenty three seasons.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: He gets named the team's general manager in twenty twelve,
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: serving in that role for eleven seasons. During Rick's tenure,
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: the White Sox win the World Series in two thousand
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: and five for the first time since nineteen seventeen. They
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: also set a franchise record by appearing in back to
• 13:36
  Speaker 1: back playoffs for the first time in twenty twenty and
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: twenty twenty one. Rick. Welcome to Rosters to Rings.
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: Thanks for having me, guys.
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: Hey, Rick, One of our traditions here on Rosters to
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: Rings is we share our origin stories of how we
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: got into the game. So can you give us a
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: little background on yours.
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: You know, my origin story is so dated now because
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: you know, I was started looking for a job like
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: the one we all wound up with in the mid nineties.
• 14:04
  Speaker 4: I was a history major at Michigan, so obviously that
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: was very well prepared for entering a major league front office,
• 14:11
  Speaker 4: and there just wasn't a path. This is pre John
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: Daniels being a GM, This is pre Paul D. Podesta,
• 14:19
  Speaker 4: Josh Burns, sort of like those of our peers that
• 14:24
  Speaker 4: were able to make that leap earlier in the early
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: two thousands. So a lot of my inquiries, I would
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: be happy if I got like a form letter back
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: from HR saying they acknowledged my letter. So I started
• 14:38
  Speaker 4: looking for a job in a front office about ninety three.
• 14:42
  Speaker 4: Ultimately in ninety eight, you know, it was time to
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: turn pro. As you said, I had a lot of education,
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: did in five years what you can do in four
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: if you have any planning and foresight when planning out
• 14:52
  Speaker 4: your graduate school. And I figured joining as an agent
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: was at least a use of my passion for the
• 15:02
  Speaker 4: game and my education. Frankly, fairly quickly after starting as
• 15:08
  Speaker 4: an agent, despite how fantastic of a firm Steinberg and
• 15:11
  Speaker 4: Moreed was, and some fantastic clients, it was clear to
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: me that my passion really was more on the team
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: building side. I was able to obviously get to know
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: some team executives and some team owners while working on
• 15:26
  Speaker 4: the agent side, and ultimately in two thousand, my wife
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: and I actually sus my fiance, We quit our jobs,
• 15:36
  Speaker 4: got married, moved back to Chicago, which is where I'm from,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: and eventually I got very fortunate in that the transition
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: from Ron Schuler to Kenny Williams was taking place at
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: that time, and the White Sox happened to be looking
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: for someone with my set of skills, so to speak.
• 15:52
  Speaker 4: So I was able to use that background and persistence,
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: and all it took was seven years for me to
• 15:59
  Speaker 4: land the job in base.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: You know, Ricky, it's interesting because I think our stories
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: started around the exact same time I started in nineteen
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: ninety nine. First season was two thousand, and you're absolutely right,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: like the skill sets we had were just not at
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: all on the radar screen at that time. I joked
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: that when I first met Dan O'Dowd in my first GM,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: he said, give me something about your background. I was like, well,
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: I have an MBA and he said, you played in
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the NBA and I said, no, I have an MBA.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: And it's like it just it was reflective of the
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: fact that front offices weren't really run like businesses at
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: that time. But when you entered, and then you referenced
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: a lot of the people who kind of came soon thereafter,
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: between the three of us and Chris Antonetti and theo
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: Epstein and Mike Chernoff and John Nozaliak was probably already
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: in the game of that time. Mike gersh like, there
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: just were a lot of guys who started flooding front offices.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: And now you would be surprised to see a front
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: office that doesn't have multiple people who have you know,
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: JD's or MBAs, But at that point that was really form.
• 17:01
  Speaker 4: You're absolutely right. I feel like the barriers to entry
• 17:05
  Speaker 4: were obviously quite high, and it was why it took
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: so long and so much good fortune for each of
• 17:11
  Speaker 4: us to land in a good spot. But it also
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: presented opportunity because these front offices were very thinly staffed
• 17:19
  Speaker 4: at the time, especially compared to now. So I feel
• 17:22
  Speaker 4: like at that time you needed some level of core
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: competency to get hired, and mine having the agent background,
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: supposedly I would know contract negotiation and the CBA and
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: the Major League rules, and that was sort of like,
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: all right, this is yours. Don't screw it up, and
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: if you do a good job with that, you know what,
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: you can go along on some affiliate visits and some
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: amateur scouting and learn to help fill the gaps elsewhere.
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: Now there's many, many more points of entry. Shoot, you
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: got websites posting you know that we have a need
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: for XYZ and to get one hundred applicants for it,
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: and teams are carrying nine, ten, fifteen interns over the
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: course of the summer. Once you're in, though, the risk
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: sort of flips. A little bit of getting siloed and
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: the ability to grow in a thinner front office is
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: probably what you have lost. But at least you've gotten.
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: Me interesting to hear more about that. As far as
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: your experience at the agency and how that translate. You
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: touched on maybe some of the skills that you brought
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: and how it helped you.
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: Did you feel, you know, being young with the education
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: background you had.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I think we all, you know, had some hurdles that
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: we had to kind of build relationships off that you.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Did the agent piece.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: Ever get held against you or were there any additional
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: hurdles to that that you were on the other side
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: of these negotiations just a couple of years prior.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: Yes, it definitely was. There were benefits to it given
• 18:47
  Speaker 4: the experience, and frankly, I think it gave me a
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: little bit of heightened empathy for what the player side
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: was going through in a negotiation, whether it's the pressure
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: an individual player feels from its family from looking around
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: the clubhouse and measuring themselves up against others, to the
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: players association's influence, to the agent's motivation. So all that
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: gave me a more complete picture. I felt an ability
• 19:13
  Speaker 4: to empathize better with the players we were and agents
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: we were negotiating with. But it's certainly you know, as
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: you know, as you alluded to, like people with our
• 19:22
  Speaker 4: background entering the game at the time were looked at
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: a little askew, like what is this guy doing here?
• 19:27
  Speaker 4: Does he think he has all the answers? Does he
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: know what he doesn't know? Like is he going to
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: look at my watch to tell me what time it is?
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: Or is he here to you know, get better himself.
• 19:38
  Speaker 4: Add on top of that, the layer for me there
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: was a little bit of suspicion of like you were
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: just representing players, like can we trust you with CBA conversations?
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: You know?
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: I was.
• 19:47
  Speaker 4: I was fortunate enough in that you know, Frank Cooneley
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: was in a prominent role with the the labor relations
• 19:55
  Speaker 4: department at MLB. We within weeks of me joining, we
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: found ourselves in a grievance with the Toronto Blue Jays.
• 20:02
  Speaker 4: We found ourselves in arbitration hearing with Keith Folks. So
• 20:04
  Speaker 4: it was like baptism by fire, and I sort of
• 20:07
  Speaker 4: had the opportunities to work with people at MLB and
• 20:10
  Speaker 4: allay some of their suspicions. On the player side, it
• 20:13
  Speaker 4: might have taken a little longer for people to get
• 20:16
  Speaker 4: comfortable with someone who you know, might know a couple
• 20:19
  Speaker 4: of plages of their playbook. But wasn't you know, using
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: it for nefarious means? Was using it to try to
• 20:26
  Speaker 4: get deals done if anything?
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: You know, I think one thing that Ricky you hit
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: on here, which is so enlightening and is such a
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: change in our tenures, which is at that time you
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: got your foot in the door with one skill set
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: that you reference that you were able to be chose
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: some competency and some capability. But we were all forced
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: to be generalists, like we all had to do a
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: little bit of everything because back then, you know, the
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: average run office was you know, eight ten twelve people,
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: and we were all doing twenty five jobs collectively, and
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: so you had to be able to cross pollinate and
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: and be there for other people and help them as
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: much as you are helping yourself. Breaking into the game today,
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: I imagine, is much different. It's much more about specialization
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: and can you do one thing exceptionally well. I reflect
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: sometimes in my career and I found sometimes it was
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: tough just to find in a sentence or two like
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: what on Earth we did? But when I ascended to
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: being a general manager, I realized that title was actually
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: apt for me. I generally managed pretty well. I didn't
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: specifically manage all that well. There are other people could
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: specifically handle, like amateur scouting, analytics or those sorts of things,
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: but I could generally kind of multitask across a lot
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: of different platforms and do well. The other thing that
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: you said, which just really hits home with me, is
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: this notion of you had to be humble. You know,
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: you had to be willing to put your head down
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: and show that your work ethic is what you're leading with.
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: Because one of the fascinating things about starting in baseball
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: is that no one wants to retire so you're working
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: astride somebody who's like a seventy five year old scout,
• 21:58
  Speaker 1: and he's teaching you the game. And I'm sure we
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: could all harken back to somebody like that who was
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: gracious enough to spend time with us and our crews,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: But for goodness sakes, they were the age of our grandfathers,
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: and we were working kind of side by side with them.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: And I don't think there are many industries where you
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: have a twenty six, twenty seven year old first time
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: employee working alongside of a seventy five year old person
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: who's literally dedicated their game, their life to the game
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: of baseball.
• 22:23
  Speaker 4: And I think that's one hundred percent accurate. And there's
• 22:26
  Speaker 4: also was this, Frankly, I think a little bit of
• 22:30
  Speaker 4: concern or suspicion on the parts of those veteran employees
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: who had come up through the game and the more
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: traditional path of sort of like, all right, is this
• 22:39
  Speaker 4: person going to tell me what I'm doing is wrong
• 22:42
  Speaker 4: and create almost a there was you had to be
• 22:46
  Speaker 4: careful that wouldn't create erect walls to keep you out.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: Like I remember my first couple of spring trainings. We'd
• 22:52
  Speaker 4: have our you know, the staff meetings every morning with
• 22:54
  Speaker 4: the coaches and go over everything for that day. And
• 22:58
  Speaker 4: I made a point of it every day to sit
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: next to either Joe Nassik or r Kushner, who are nickname.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Being caveman appropriately was a life life for both lifers
• 23:08
  Speaker 4: in the game, and it was as much for me
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: to learn from them about their approach, but also to
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: get them comfortable with me that like, I'm not coming
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: in here to tell you, oh, hey, I you know,
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: I got all this education and I, you know, can
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: read a spreadsheet and therefore I know you're doing X,
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: y Z wrong and frankly your life work has been
• 23:27
  Speaker 4: misguided and I have the answers Like no, man, it
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: was more about like how can we round things out?
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: And to go back to your point is being a
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: general manager, Like with all due respect to you know,
• 23:42
  Speaker 4: John Schuerholtz or Ranch Rickie or whomever, Like there's twelve thirteen,
• 23:48
  Speaker 4: fourteen skills you need to excel at, let's say, or
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: be good at as a general manager. On the one extreme,
• 23:54
  Speaker 4: you know, subjective evaluation and at the other extreme, let's say,
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: objective or dealing with the media or dealing with agents
• 24:01
  Speaker 4: or managing people none of us is going to be
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: at the top tier of all twelve or fourteen of
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: those traits. And knowing what you don't know and be
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: able to surround yourself and trust competent people to fill
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: those blind spots for you is essential to success in
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: my opinion. And I think us coming in the way
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: we did knowing that, like it's a balance between these
• 24:28
  Speaker 4: veteran lifers who have been there and us coming off
• 24:32
  Speaker 4: of either small fields or you know, ivy covered walls
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: of higher education like it drilled home. This was a
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: way for you got to find balance and respect and
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: that was that was key.
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: So you go through that process, you learn, you develop
• 24:51
  Speaker 2: after kind of breaking in with the little unorthodox background
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: and skill set and then the prior job of the agency.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: And how fast forward that you guys win the World
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: Series five and you are now one of the you know,
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: rising stars in the game, and different opportunities start to
• 25:06
  Speaker 2: present themselves to you. Loosely, remember two thousand and seven,
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: I think the Cardinals were were you were a hot name.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: Then you're still a hot name in my book, by
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the way, but you were certainly I appreciate that.
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: How did you, how did you and.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: The family ultimately decide, you know, staying there in Chicago
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: is the right move for you. And you talked a
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: little bit about just these decisions as you ascend to
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: that point in your career.
• 25:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, that's a great question, one that we
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: haven't really I haven't been asked in ten fifteen years.
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: But at the time, you're absolutely right. You know we
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: want and O five and you know, my name starts
• 25:47
  Speaker 4: getting out there in seven and at the time, and
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: Antonetti was sort of similar on the same path at
• 25:55
  Speaker 4: the time. So it was always christ and me as
• 25:57
  Speaker 4: part of a cluster of people potentially being candidates for openings,
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: and he and I would talk frequently about level of interest,
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: and both he and I at the time, we're willing
• 26:11
  Speaker 4: to turn down opportunities. And it was funny, there was
• 26:14
  Speaker 4: a very clear demarcation in those in my world. And
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: it's like if you had been in the game less
• 26:19
  Speaker 4: than fifteen years, you were kind of like, oh, I
• 26:22
  Speaker 4: get it, you're waiting for the right thing. You're happy,
• 26:25
  Speaker 4: you're in a good place where you can win. Your
• 26:27
  Speaker 4: family is an important consideration. I grew up in Chicago,
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: so that obviously put a big thumb on the scale.
• 26:31
  Speaker 4: My parents are still around and live nearby. But if
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: you were in the game more than fifteen years, you
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: looked at me or Antonetti like we had three heads,
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: because there's only thirty of these, and what are you doing?
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: And who are you to be essentially so picky? And
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: you're fortunate to be mentioned, much less to be offered
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: a job, so who are you to withdraw your name
• 26:54
  Speaker 4: from consideration? And both sides are valid, both sides get it.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: I turned out very fortunate in that both my children
• 27:06
  Speaker 4: were born while I worked in my hometown, and both
• 27:09
  Speaker 4: my children went off to college while I still worked
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: in my hometown. And really it was important to me
• 27:15
  Speaker 4: and my wife to not move our family more than
• 27:18
  Speaker 4: once before high school if we could control it. This
• 27:22
  Speaker 4: obviously isn't the right industry for that, but that was
• 27:24
  Speaker 4: my goal, and I was really really fortunate in that
• 27:28
  Speaker 4: I didn't have to move them ever, like they were
• 27:30
  Speaker 4: able to grow up normal childhood, et cetera. Professionally, in retrospect,
• 27:37
  Speaker 4: that might not have been the right decision. There might
• 27:40
  Speaker 4: have been better opportunities to win along the way that
• 27:43
  Speaker 4: I turned down to chance to pursue not offers, chance
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: to pursue but holistically, like trying to have a balance
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: life and what's good for my family, Like I wouldn't
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: trade the path I actually wound up on for anything,
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: even though it might not make total professional sense in
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: retrospect to others.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Just to give a quick point of education for the listeners,
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: one thing that is unique about baseball is that when
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: we work in it, we do not have the latitude
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: and the freedom to pursue jobs unencumbered. So the way
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: that that works is when the Saint Louis Cardinals had
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: interest in Rick, mister DeWitt, the owner of the Cardinals,
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: would have to call Jerry Reinstorf, the owner of the
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: White Sox, and ask permission to speak with Rick as
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: a candidate for the position. And in that situation, mister
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: Reinsdorf would have the unilateral right to either grant that
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: permission or to say no, he's not allowed to do that.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: And I don't know to what extent Rick, you've ever
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: felt like you were denied permission. I don't think I
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: ever was. I hope you never were. But I just
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: wanted to bring that up because to Rick's point, it's
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: not as if Rick could make that decision to forego
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: the Cardinals opportunity and just say, Okay, the next one,
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: I'm going to just go get that job. You don't
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: really have that latitude. The other thing I just would say,
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: as a friend of Rick and somebody who admired him
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: through that process, is there are two different types of jobs.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: There's one in which you would be one of five
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: to seven candidates to be considered for the role. There
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: are others where you're actively getting pursued recruited, and maybe
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: you're not the only one who's getting recruited, but that's
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: kind of more in line with the situation, and maybe
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: you have one or two candidates, and by all accounts,
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: I think Saint Louis was one of those where Rick
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: was getting pursued. It's a crazy thing in sports, but
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of top ten lists, and one
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: of the top ten lists always was who were the
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: top ten, you know, GM candidates at the time, And
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: as Rick said, there was an era where both he
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: and Chris Antonetti were kind of towards the top of
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: that list of most people's lists at the time, and
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: rightfully so. They just won the World Series. Cleveland had
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: a ton of positive reputation, but I just wanted to
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: offer that. In addition, you know, staying with one team
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: is a very noble pursuit. But to be able to
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: do it for you know, you were there twenty one seasons,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: right right, twenty three I'm sorry, So yeah, I mean
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: that's that's an exceptional accomplishment. And to be able to
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: do that for your family as a gift most of
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: us can't give in the game. So I just I
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: just wanted to make sure we kind of called that out.
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: You know, it's a I don't know, Rick, if you
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: look back, because one of the other things about Rick
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: was that he was so connected to the other gms,
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: like there there really is a camaraderie interfraternity amongst the gms,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: and so when any of us had opportunities, I know,
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I always called you Rick and just asked your assessment
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: of the opportunity. So when you offered counsel, so aside
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: from your situation where you want to stay in Chicago
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: with Gene and with the kids, what was some of
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: the criteria you you looked at Because I always looked
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: at it through the lens of like how stable is ownership?
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: And it seemed as if if that if that was
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: a good answer. Then you moved to like, Okay, what's
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: the situation with the manager? Beyond that? Like I was
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: confident and hopeful we could we could correct any other problems.
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: If you have issues with the manager and or the owner,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: I think it's really tough to succeed.
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: I agree, I think I think I think you nailed it.
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: Eddie Einhorn, who was Jerry Reinser's partner for a real
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: long time, said to me, right when this process is
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: sort of ramping up for me in my career, he
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: pulled me aside and he goes, I understand, we're going
• 31:29
  Speaker 4: to lose you soon. Probably the only advice I'd give
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: you is don't go anywhere where the expectation out may
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: outstraps the commitment. And that kind of goes to ownership
• 31:41
  Speaker 4: in that what is ownership trying to accomplish? Obviously everyone
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: wants to win, but the resources and and path to
• 31:52
  Speaker 4: that victory, resources committed, an ideal path to that victory
• 31:56
  Speaker 4: homegrown free agents.
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: Trade can vary.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: And I do early on, a big part of my
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: analysis was absolutely chance to win and sort of a
• 32:12
  Speaker 4: rapport with ownership if I ever were to return. Now,
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: you know, having the experience that I've had, I would
• 32:20
  Speaker 4: want to feel philosophically aligned with ownership, not just on
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: the goal of winning, but how we're going to win,
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: the type of players, the type of processes we're going
• 32:31
  Speaker 4: to use. I do think, and it's something I worry
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: about myself. So I don't mean it as a criticism
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: of anyone out there. I worry that your view of
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: how to win and what is the formula to win
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: can become calcified a little bit based upon whatever era,
• 32:52
  Speaker 4: either you grew up rooting for the game or you
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: had success in the game, And you know, for example,
• 32:59
  Speaker 4: the twenty twenty five World Series champion, whoever that is,
• 33:04
  Speaker 4: it's probably going to look a heck a lot different
• 33:06
  Speaker 4: from the five Chicago White Sox. I mean, our ALCS
• 33:10
  Speaker 4: rotation all four guys through complete games. I think it's
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: fairly certain that's not going to happen now. So taking
• 33:17
  Speaker 4: it to the extreme, if in my head the proper
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: champion going forward looks like that five team in terms
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: of their traits, it's probably not going to work. And
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: so having that sort of you know, more commonly known
• 33:32
  Speaker 4: as a growth mindset and being on the same page
• 33:35
  Speaker 4: with ownership now would be of the utmost important as
• 33:39
  Speaker 4: opposed to trying to build an outdated model that they
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: have in mind is the right one.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: When we ask owners to put their resources behind winning.
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: When we said that in two thousand and two thousand
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: and five, twenty ten, it was such a different endeavor
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: than it is now. These departments are so much more robust.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: The resources were trying to tap into the systems that
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: people the technology is just so vastly different. And I
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: think always from a leadership standpoint, like it is so difficult.
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: When you're doing well, you do fall into that trap
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: of like, we kind of have this figured out, we
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: have a competitive advantage. We want to keep this moving forward.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: You're so obsessed with not losing your intellectual capital as
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: people are trying to hire people away, that almost you
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: you were fighting for the status quo. It's that challenge
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: of like introducing a new voice, you know, a new
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: resource into the decision making process to make sure you're
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: staying cutting edge, because you just so it's so easy
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: to fall into that trap of like, hey, listen, let's
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: just keep what we're doing what we're doing because it's
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: going pretty well, and you know, I look at it,
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: you know, Rick harkening back to the twenty ten, twenty eleven,
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: twenty I'm sorry, twenty twenty, twenty twenty one seasons, do
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: you guys earn the playoffs back to back years? I
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: was working for Minnesota at the time. We viewed you
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: not only as the class of the division, but as
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: the class of the American League. You were a team
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: you would put together was really formidable. And then it
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: kind of falls off, and it just goes to show
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: how quickly this can happen, best laid plans and how
• 35:08
  Speaker 1: quickly it can happen. When you guys were sitting there
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: in twenty and twenty twenty one, how why did you
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: feel the window was open? And how quickly did you
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: find out maybe it wasn't as wide as you expected.
• 35:19
  Speaker 4: Boy, we really felt we were cooking with sauts by
• 35:22
  Speaker 4: the end of twenty twenty. Obviously it was the shortened
• 35:24
  Speaker 4: COVID year and we wound up getting bounced out of
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: the first round of the playoffs under difficult circumstances for everyone,
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: But we certainly projected off of that team that, Okay,
• 35:35
  Speaker 4: now we're positioned, we may need this or that. We
• 35:37
  Speaker 4: added Liam Hendrix who went on the wind reliever of
• 35:40
  Speaker 4: the year that next year, so like addressed a need
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: we needed, and it really probably we had a good
• 35:51
  Speaker 4: amount of injuries on that twenty one team, which every
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: team has never is a real excuse, because we actually
• 36:02
  Speaker 4: had like eight different former White Sox first round picks
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: contribute to that ultimate division winner. We had a bunch
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: of minor league free agents that we signed, you know,
• 36:14
  Speaker 4: Jake Lamb Goodwin came in to help us in a
• 36:19
  Speaker 4: stretch like we were. The pro scouting department, the amateur
• 36:22
  Speaker 4: scouting department, not to mention the major league staff, like
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: all really was gelling. It seemed like to fill the
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: plug the holes in the dam and.
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Keep us, keep us afloat.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: Even that the injuries and you know, having to get
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: guys sort of on the fly, didn't make us feel
• 36:44
  Speaker 4: like that window was going to close nearly as quickly
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: as we did, even though there certainly were some warning
• 36:49
  Speaker 4: signs there. Our first half of the season, we were awesome.
• 36:53
  Speaker 4: Second half of the season, we were kind of five
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: hundred dish, a little lackadaisical. And I think what you
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: one of the things you're alluding to is it's such
• 37:02
  Speaker 4: a deca delicate ecosystem in those clubhouses, and we had swagger,
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: we had energy. You said you viewed us as the
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: class of the league. We felt like we were the
• 37:15
  Speaker 4: class of the league, like we would be there to
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: beat your ass and like celebrate over it. About midway
• 37:22
  Speaker 4: through twenty one, we lost some of that, and part
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: of it was the injuries, part of it was the
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: down year. Part of it was the clubhouse vibe changed
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: dramatically over the course of the twenty one season, not
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: so much that we didn't enter twenty two thinking all right,
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: we can run this back. And frankly, you know, I
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: think Joshian wrote at one point in one of his
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: newsletters during August of the twenty twenty two season, you know,
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: the White Sox are gonna play with their food for
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: four and a half months and still win this division
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: because it felt like we were just sputtering around, not
• 37:53
  Speaker 4: excelling in any way. But that really was the precursor
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: of the of the wheels coming off the thing. So
• 38:00
  Speaker 4: it you go through the competitive cycle when you get
• 38:04
  Speaker 4: things lined up, especially the way we felt we did
• 38:06
  Speaker 4: with signing young players to extensions to extend the control
• 38:10
  Speaker 4: window of the club. You know, we felt we were
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: on the precipice of a good, you know, three to
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: five year heavily competitive, deep in the playoff and sneak
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: up and win one window. Obviously dealing with you guys
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: in Minnesota who was you know, for years and earlier
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: in my career, was constantly taking divisions away from people
• 38:31
  Speaker 4: on paper, are like, well, wait, we're better, but they're
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: five games up. Not to mention when you alluded to
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: what Cleveland was doing, like it was going to be tough,
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: but we felt we were really well positioned, and frankly
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: it came apart in two years.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: So Rick, just circling back to your to your origin story,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: when when you're dreaming of working for the White Sox,
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: did you make any forays of joining their organization before
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: you ultimately got hired and how did that go?
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: I did? It went so well that it took another
• 39:04
  Speaker 4: four years before they actually hired me. I was very bullheaded,
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: which I'm sure is going to come to a great
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: shock to those who know me.
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: Like you do.
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: I didn't want to use any help. I didn't want
• 39:19
  Speaker 4: to use any family connections or so and so know
• 39:22
  Speaker 4: so and so.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: Who can get you in front of someone, I thought, no.
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: I'm going to do this on my own, completely oblivious
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: or arrogant to the fact that it's extraordinarily competitive, and
• 39:33
  Speaker 4: just because someone makes an introduction to someone doesn't mean
• 39:37
  Speaker 4: you're getting hired, like you're gonna there. Might be nice
• 39:39
  Speaker 4: to you for a little bit, but they're not going
• 39:41
  Speaker 4: to hire you unless you fit the role. So finally,
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: after about three years of banging my head against the
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: wall and like I said, being excited when I got
• 39:49
  Speaker 4: a form letter back from HR rejecting me, I did acquiesce,
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: and my dad had a friend who knew Jerry Rhyinstorf,
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: and a friend passed all on my resume, and Jerry
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: was kind enough to invite me in. And this is
• 40:06
  Speaker 4: the winner of ninety six. I walk into his office.
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: He's facing the other way. I still remember it distinctly,
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: and before he turns around. Keep in mind, Jerry denies
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: this story, so it's his word against mine. Before he
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: turns around, he starts letting off a barrage of I
• 40:25
  Speaker 4: don't know what you're doing here. You're wasting my f
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: in time, You're wasting your f in time. You need
• 40:32
  Speaker 4: to go get a real job, not work in baseball,
• 40:34
  Speaker 4: and you know, having grown up in Chicago Bulls fan,
• 40:37
  Speaker 4: and you know, just having had the labor stoppage in
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: ninety four, I'm like, took me a second, be like, wow,
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: Jerry Reinsorf is sitting here cursing me out. I was
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: able to maintain composure, and we wound up talking for
• 40:50
  Speaker 4: about an hour and a half that day, and I
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: felt like I made progress, explaining that I thought the
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: game was changing, and that the profile of those who
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: were going to pop de late front offices is already
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: starting to move a little bit, and only more will
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: more so in the coming years. Walked out of there
• 41:06
  Speaker 4: feeling pretty good. About two weeks later, I get a
• 41:10
  Speaker 4: handwritten letter on Jerry's stationary sent to my apartment. My
• 41:14
  Speaker 4: real name is Frederick. I go by Rick. My real
• 41:17
  Speaker 4: name is Frederick. So my top of my resume that
• 41:19
  Speaker 4: he has says Frederick, and the letter starts off dear
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: fred So, showing that he has already forgotten my name.
• 41:27
  Speaker 4: Goes on to say, you know, I've thought long and
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: hard about our meeting, and I continue to believe I
• 41:32
  Speaker 4: will not help you ruin your life. Please lie down
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: until you come to your senses. But then at the
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: end he said, however, if you would like to learn
• 41:42
  Speaker 4: about scouting while holding down a real job, feel free
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: to contact me and I'll put you in touch with
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: some of our scouts so you can shadow. So I
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: did do that, got to know some scouts, many of
• 41:54
  Speaker 4: whom are actually still with the White Sox, who were
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: very gracious with their time while I was sitting there
• 41:59
  Speaker 4: at the as in school, and I spent a good
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: portion of my spring and summer getting exposed to that.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: So it's a long story already, so I can't say
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: long story short. But at the time I was at
• 42:10
  Speaker 4: Kellogg Business School, they had a contest for best rejection
• 42:14
  Speaker 4: letter from the job application process and I won twenty
• 42:19
  Speaker 4: five dollars to Barnes and Noble. So that was the
• 42:21
  Speaker 4: first money I ever made in baseball. Thanks to Jerry again,
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: and he denies writing that letter, which is framed upstairs
• 42:26
  Speaker 4: in my office.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: That is an awesome story. I also I realized, like
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: when you say that, like you have to accept rejection
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: if you want to work in professional sports. And I'm
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: sure that there's no greater time than now to say that,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Like the amount of times I got rejected and just
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: really categorically I applied to all thirty teams coming out
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: of college. I got formally rejected by four twenty six,
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: didn't even respond right, and I was ecstatic. I was
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: like this, I'm like on the precipice. When I ultimately
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: got the job, my first job in baseball with the
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Colorado Rockies, I got rejected for a marketing position which
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: I was grossly overqualified for, and then got hired for
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: a baseball position I was grossly underqualified later. So you
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: just never know how it's going to go. Rick, I
• 43:12
  Speaker 1: want to continue delving into your relationship with Jerry, because,
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: at least outwardly, it seemed as if it was such
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: a special relationship. You guys had forged over twenty three
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: seasons together. So it starts in a kind of like
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: a funny, avuncular way, and then it matures over time.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: You guys get to celebrate the two thousand and five
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: old series together, you guys get to go to the
• 43:35
  Speaker 1: playoffs in twenty twenty and twenty twenty one together. Ultimately, though,
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: as all these jobs do, it winds down at the end.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: What were your conversations like with him leading up to
• 43:46
  Speaker 1: that and can you kind of share with the listener, like,
• 43:48
  Speaker 1: how does that go down? Because I think, you know,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: we see those things in movies. It's not it doesn't
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: play out the same way in real life. But my
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: sense is you had a little bit more of a
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: hand in that than people would realize.
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and look, Jerry Reinsdorf and Kenny Williams took a
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: chance on me in two thousand when they first hired me.
• 44:08
  Speaker 4: And again, it sounds silly given the current state of
• 44:12
  Speaker 4: the game, but as we talked about earlier, back then,
• 44:14
  Speaker 4: there weren't a lot of people like us getting these opportunities.
• 44:19
  Speaker 4: And not only did they give me that first opportunity,
• 44:21
  Speaker 4: but they continue to give me more and more areas
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: for growth to put me in a position where I
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: could become a general manager. So I was forever grateful
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: for that as well as over the years, you know,
• 44:36
  Speaker 4: the friendship, the counsel, the advice, the antagonism when I
• 44:43
  Speaker 4: needed it to push me to get better. All helped
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: form you know, who I was as an executive, but
• 44:51
  Speaker 4: also like who I was as a man and a
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: father and a husband like it, I'm forever indebted to
• 44:57
  Speaker 4: them both. But part of that I feel comes with
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: a responsibility to be honest. And you know, as I mentioned,
• 45:08
  Speaker 4: the twenty twenty two season, we sputtered around, we didn't
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: fulfill our promise. In the twenty twenty three season got
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: off to a horrible start, just a disaster, and Jerry
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: and I think had our first conversation in early May
• 45:20
  Speaker 4: of that year where I said to him, you know,
• 45:23
  Speaker 4: the focus of the conversation was what are we going
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: to do to get out of this? What can we do?
• 45:27
  Speaker 4: What are their options? But I ended that meeting by saying, look,
• 45:31
  Speaker 4: you do realize if we can't pull out of this,
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: you're gonna have to fire me. And he's like, no, no,
• 45:38
  Speaker 4: that's silly, that's not the case. I have faith in you.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: And I said, now, I appreciate that. I said, however,
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: you've given me and our department the opportunity to rebuild
• 45:49
  Speaker 4: this organization. And we had some success, certainly not nearly
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: enough in our opinion, or as much as we strove for.
• 45:57
  Speaker 4: But if this doesn't work in twenty three, you're gonna
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: have to reset it again. And it's just the nature
• 46:03
  Speaker 4: of where this organization is and where our resources is
• 46:05
  Speaker 4: and where our balance sheets are and I'm not entitled
• 46:10
  Speaker 4: to get to do that a second time. Like you
• 46:13
  Speaker 4: have to understand that. I get it, I can you
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: know it's not going to be ugly. It's going to
• 46:18
  Speaker 4: be clean if you ever get to that point. We
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: had similar conversations in June, July, and August. You know,
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: he really was reluctant to make a change. You know,
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: I felt it was part of my job as one
• 46:36
  Speaker 4: of the leaders in the organization to protect others. I
• 46:40
  Speaker 4: didn't want the coaching staff to feel the eire Kenny,
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: you know, as someone who had been wonderful to me
• 46:49
  Speaker 4: for over two decades and had is the GM when
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: they we won the World Series and played a key
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: role in many of our success of our successes together.
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: You know, he had a deeper relationship with Jerry, going
• 47:03
  Speaker 4: back an extra decade plus longer than my twenty three years,
• 47:07
  Speaker 4: and I felt as the GM, he could remove me
• 47:11
  Speaker 4: and just me and things would be back on track.
• 47:15
  Speaker 4: There at least would be more consumer and fan confidence
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: and perhaps a different approach that could exceed even the
• 47:23
  Speaker 4: level of success we were able to rebuild the thing
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: into over the course the last few years. When it
• 47:30
  Speaker 4: came to the end, the actual final conversation where he
• 47:35
  Speaker 4: you know, let me go. You know, it was it
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: was more it was more me consoling him. Frankly, like
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: it was especially him making the move with Kenny like
• 47:47
  Speaker 4: that he's as well, as he has said publicly, like
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: Kenny was like an additional son to him, and that
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: really really hit him hard. I think he didn't love
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: fighting at me either, but that one was like family
• 48:00
  Speaker 4: and they remain extremely close to this day because of
• 48:04
  Speaker 4: that history. And I, you know, talking with Kenny later
• 48:08
  Speaker 4: that day, like both of us, I think had similar
• 48:12
  Speaker 4: experiences where it was letting this kind and generous man
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: who had been good, but both of us understand that
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: we got it. This is you know is iim ros said,
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: this is the business we have chosen, like this is
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: part of what comes with the territory, and it objectively
• 48:30
  Speaker 4: was time.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: You know, first of all, thank you for sharing that
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: exceptionally personal and candid story. You know, I harkened back
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: to My first mentor was Josh Burns. He was somebody
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: who I went to college with. We played baseball together.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: He was a mentor and he got me into the game.
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: And one of the very first things he shared with me,
• 48:50
  Speaker 1: is you aspire to work long enough to get fired.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: And what he meant by that was that he challenged me.
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: He said, there are two ways to go through life
• 48:58
  Speaker 1: in these positions. One is to just try to survive
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: tomorrow because the roles are so wonderful. You know, there's
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: so many things about these jobs that are so coveted.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: Very few people get these opportunities. Those who do want
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: to hold on to them. But he said, don't try
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: to survive, try to thrive on behalf of the organization.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: If you're trying to thrive, you are going to make
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: mistakes at some point, and the mistakes are going to
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: mount to the point where you're going to be held
• 49:21
  Speaker 1: accountable for. So I just want to just pause for
• 49:25
  Speaker 1: a second in really, you know, recognize how you tried
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: to thrive throughout your career for the Chicago White Sox fans,
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: for the Reinestor family, and it was your nobility at
• 49:38
  Speaker 1: the end where you probably could have eked out another contract.
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: It sounds like by all accounts you most certainly could have,
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: and lord knows where that would have taken you, because
• 49:45
  Speaker 1: you could have probably turned it around again. But you
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: were acting in the best interests of the family, the
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: fan base, the organization. So few people do that, so
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to tell you, like, I think that's
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: an exceptional account of your character, in your integrity. I
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: also want to shift gears a little bit to the
• 50:03
  Speaker 1: positive side of things. Is which is right? You know
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: you talked about the rebuild that you took on, and really,
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm going to miss names here, Rick, so
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: please fill in where I miss names. But just as
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: for the listeners to understand, like when Rick had a
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: chance with Kenny, obviously to rebuild this franchise, you made
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: some really bold moves and you ended up treating Quintana
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: Sale and Eaton and I just wrote down on the
• 50:30
  Speaker 1: back of an envelope Hereod, here's what you netted. And
• 50:33
  Speaker 1: I know I'm missing names here, Alloy Whomenz, Dylan Ces,
• 50:37
  Speaker 1: Michael Kopek, Johann Mancater Raynaldo Lopez, Lucas, Gi Ledo, Dane Dunning.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: And just as a point of reference, when we make
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: these deals and we get multiple players back, we do
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: it with the hope that maybe one, possibly two will
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: actually emerge to my recollection. I know there were other
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: players involved in those deals. But there weren't too many
• 50:56
  Speaker 1: other players involved in those deals. The hits you got
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: on that group of players was exceptional. Did some of
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: them fall short of your expectations, maybe, but as a group,
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: I have to believe that is one of the biggest
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: halls anybody's gotten in the context of one rebuild. And
• 51:13
  Speaker 1: I just like wanted to say that, like that it
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: was incredible. I'm sure a lot went into that, But
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: if you could share with with the listeners, like, like,
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: how did you go about doing that? How many? I mean,
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: these are players that every team wanted to get their
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: hands on. Sometimes when we're making trades, you've got two
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: or three suitors you guys had to like cycle through.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: I can't imagine how many suitors. Do you look back
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: in that and say, as great as those halls were,
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: like who we could have gotten so and so, or
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: what were some of the other, you know, bold statements
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: people were making, Like what was your recollection of that time?
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Did you realize in the moment the halls you guys
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: have received.
• 51:51
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you very kind of you to say that,
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: and I mean it, and it means and it means
• 51:57
  Speaker 4: you know, it means a lot coming from you having
• 52:00
  Speaker 4: lived that life and made similar such trades, been on
• 52:03
  Speaker 4: both sides of stuff like that to know, like, obviously
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: it's not simply me. It's the pro scouts, it's the analysts,
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: it's even the trainers. It's the amateur scouts who have
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: seen these guys back and the Dominicans whining in on
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: it to line things up. And it was you know,
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: we had a period of time with the Socks where
• 52:24
  Speaker 4: we tried to sort of patch things on the fly
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: and you know, compete for eighty six ish wins, sneak
• 52:32
  Speaker 4: in the playoffs, jump up and get hot at the
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: right time, and that just wasn't a satisfying model. I
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: made the right around the deadline, I think I had
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: in twenty sixteen, I said to the Chicago media that
• 52:46
  Speaker 4: we're mired in mediocrity, and then afterwards our head of
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: pr scout Riifer, it was like, did you have to
• 52:51
  Speaker 4: use a literation? And I was like, what are you
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: talking about? And he goes, you said we're mired in mediocrity.
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: That's going to be the headline for the next three
• 52:57
  Speaker 4: months here. And I didn't even realize I had said it,
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: but it was a candidate sessiment of where we were.
• 53:01
  Speaker 4: So we went to Jerry with a very specific multi
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: year plan about how we were going to rebuild this thing.
• 53:08
  Speaker 4: And unfortunately, like the problem wasn't the guys you mentioned,
• 53:14
  Speaker 4: it wasn't the top five to six seven players on
• 53:17
  Speaker 4: the roster, it was players eight to thirty five or
• 53:20
  Speaker 4: whatever you're going to go through that year, that just
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: weren't enough for us to sustain the least bit of
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: underperformance or injury. So we had to go about rebuilding
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: this thing from the from the roots up.
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: And fun.
• 53:36
  Speaker 4: Basically, the approach was when you have an asset like sale,
• 53:39
  Speaker 4: a premium type elite probably future Hall of Famer at
• 53:43
  Speaker 4: that time, and even more even more so now with
• 53:48
  Speaker 4: multi years of control, we would look at our board
• 53:52
  Speaker 4: and try to figure out, Okay, these eleven teams want them,
• 53:56
  Speaker 4: but which three would we feel good about a package
• 54:01
  Speaker 4: we could make up because not everyone has the kind
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: of system that's going to make you happy as you know,
• 54:05
  Speaker 4: to make that type of deal. And once we sort
• 54:09
  Speaker 4: of zeroed in on a limited pool of teams that
• 54:13
  Speaker 4: had that caliber of talent, then we were able to
• 54:18
  Speaker 4: sort of really drill down on negotiations with those specific
• 54:21
  Speaker 4: teams with specific targets in mind, and that helped make
• 54:25
  Speaker 4: what could have been a very difficult process much easier,
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: you know, apropos of this time of the year. You know,
• 54:33
  Speaker 4: in the twenty sixteen season, it was pretty clear that
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: we were going to have to go through that rebuild,
• 54:38
  Speaker 4: which did not start in earnest till the winter meetings
• 54:40
  Speaker 4: when we moved Sail and Eat in a couple of
• 54:42
  Speaker 4: days of succession. But there was a chance at the
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: deadline that we could have done that in sixteen, especially
• 54:48
  Speaker 4: with Sale. People really wanted Sale, but we didn't feel
• 54:52
  Speaker 4: like we were accessing the type of players we wanted
• 54:55
  Speaker 4: to at that time, and we thought that the pool
• 54:58
  Speaker 4: was going to be much broad or in the off
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: season of teams that would be in the market as
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: opposed to simply the contenders at the deadline. So a
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: lot of it was timing. And last point I'd make
• 55:10
  Speaker 4: on this is Quintana. I think I even said and
• 55:14
  Speaker 4: was roundly mocked because if I had used like a
• 55:16
  Speaker 4: nineteen thirties expression, But after we did this sale and
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: Eating trades on back to back days at the winter meetings,
• 55:22
  Speaker 4: I think I said something like, if we had our
• 55:24
  Speaker 4: druthers we would move Kintana. We continue this process with
• 55:28
  Speaker 4: everyone knowing Kintana was the next and we'd make it
• 55:30
  Speaker 4: another deal while we're here. Product of sleep deprivation that
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: we all suffer from at the Winter meetings has me
• 55:37
  Speaker 4: talking like a you know, an old Carnival Barker, and
• 55:43
  Speaker 4: it just didn't come together. We moved Quintana the next deadline.
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: So there was an element of patients, patients from our owner,
• 55:54
  Speaker 4: patients from our coaches, patients from frankly, the players in
• 55:58
  Speaker 4: uniform understanding what we were doing and and understanding isn't
• 56:03
  Speaker 4: going to happen overnight. You can't force that, like to
• 56:06
  Speaker 4: get the returns that we wound up with on those players,
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: you had to strike when the market was there. Sometimes
• 56:12
  Speaker 4: that was in the deadline. Sometimes that was real quickly
• 56:15
  Speaker 4: at the Winter.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Meetings, Riven the winter that you guys moved Eaten and
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Sale you're just referencing in Texas, we had discussions about
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: potentially moving some guys that too, I think Darvish and
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: Cole Hammil's and ultimately that winter we had received approval
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: financial approval for public financing for the new stadium, and
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: ownership understandably didn't want to on the heels of that
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: turn around and break down the club. It just been
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: the playoffs, And I'm just curious your experience outside factor,
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: non baseball factors that maybe aren't normally considered that fans
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: don't think about any in your experience that affected meaningfully
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: the direction of your club or how you went about
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: decision making.
• 57:06
  Speaker 4: Now, you're absolutely right in that. When we started our
• 57:11
  Speaker 4: process in sixteen, as we laid out for Jerry, here's
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: what a rebuild needs to look like. Part of it
• 57:20
  Speaker 4: was we're going to be bad, like that's just going
• 57:24
  Speaker 4: to happen based on the talent and the maturation process
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: of what we're requiring. You have to be okay with that. Additionally,
• 57:32
  Speaker 4: we're going to want to be active and in their
• 57:34
  Speaker 4: national market, which at the time carried pretty severe taxes
• 57:38
  Speaker 4: or penalties for going over your pool. You have to
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: be okay paying a penalty. We're going to want to
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: make trades in our division. We're going to maybe make
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: trades with the Cubs, which was kind of taboo back
• 57:50
  Speaker 4: then for in inner city trades like that, and you
• 57:54
  Speaker 4: have to be okay with that. And to his credit,
• 57:58
  Speaker 4: all three of those things that he was ever really
• 58:00
  Speaker 4: comfortable with He understood and gave us the latitude to do.
• 58:04
  Speaker 4: But he easily could have said, no, shoot, you know,
• 58:06
  Speaker 4: go into the Quintana trade. When THEO and I are
• 58:09
  Speaker 4: talking it through, both of us repeatedly, especially right at
• 58:13
  Speaker 4: the start, but repeatedly through the process, said look, just
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: so you know, I may have to bail out of
• 58:19
  Speaker 4: this thing at the end, and let's try to do
• 58:22
  Speaker 4: a baseball trade and let's not hold it against each
• 58:26
  Speaker 4: other for whatever reason. Some you know, BS gets in
• 58:31
  Speaker 4: the way at the end, and we simply can't close
• 58:33
  Speaker 4: this trade because again, inner city trades like that weren't
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: very common. And at the end of the Quintana trade,
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: we had the deal in place with the Cubs that
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: we liked with Eloy and csping the centerpiece. And I
• 58:50
  Speaker 4: think I've told this story publicly before, but like the
• 58:53
  Speaker 4: second runner up in the Kintana sweepstakes was Milwaukee, and
• 58:58
  Speaker 4: had great talks with Stearns, but it just wasn't getting
• 59:02
  Speaker 4: to the level and our opinion of Elloy and ces.
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: So Jerry calls me, you know, or exchange medicals, but
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: again we haven't committed because of the sensitivity, and he
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: calls me two three times, and the final time he's like,
• 59:18
  Speaker 4: walk me through again why we're sending this guy to
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: the Cubs and not Milwaukee, Like, I'd much rather send
• 59:23
  Speaker 4: them to Milwaukee if things are equal, and explain to
• 59:26
  Speaker 4: him again why it wasn't equal, and here's why what
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: we think these guys are versus what was being offered,
• 59:32
  Speaker 4: And at the end of the conversation he goes, Okay, look,
• 59:35
  Speaker 4: I cannot in my in good faith bless this deal.
• 59:40
  Speaker 4: I will not give you my blessing for this deal. However,
• 59:44
  Speaker 4: I will tell you that if you unilaterally decide to
• 59:46
  Speaker 4: go ahead with it, there will be no negative repercussions
• 59:49
  Speaker 4: for you. So that's how the Cantonatray gets done and
• 59:55
  Speaker 4: goes back to that Look, it's it's the owner's team,
• 59:59
  Speaker 4: it's the owner's toy. They let us, They grant us
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 4: the ability to play with it and shape it and
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 4: guide it and hopefully win with it, and ultimately they
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 4: have final say and if they want to do something
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 4: different you, I'm sure we've all been there fight like
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 4: hell to try to talk them off of that path.
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 4: But at the end of the day, if that's the path,
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 4: you either get on board, or you get out of
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 4: the way.
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: We had the chairman on this podcast, and his story
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: was different. He insisted on that deal.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 4: That sounds about right.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 1: That sounds about Ricky shed light on something which I
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 1: think people may not realize. It's like the number of
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: times you call another team and they say, hey, I'm sorry,
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 1: I just can't deal with in division, or I need
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: to exact a premium from you if we're doing stuff
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: in division. I always thought that was so peculiar, because
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: if I'm selling and I'm trying to rebuild the team,
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: I actually most would like to talk to is somebody
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: in division, because I know you're beating me today already.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: I'd rather help you more today to hurt you in
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 1: the future when I hope to be beating you. So
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 1: I always thought it was so short sighted when teams
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 1: had some of those restrictions, and to your point, most
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: of those were levied by ownership. But sometimes I think
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 1: GM tried to kind of self impose that. One question
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to ask, if you're willing to share
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: that the focal are at the time when you traded
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: sale and ultimately eaten soon thereafter, was that the Washington
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: Nationals actually could have ended up with sale, and that
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: there was a pretty aggressive package they put together. You
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: guys pivot at the last. You go with the Red
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: Sox deal for sale, but then you quickly put together
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: a deal with Eaton going to the nationals, and at
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: least the folkalore at the time was that that was
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: a facsimile of the sale return maybe less obviously a
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: slightly lesser package. Is there any truth to that or
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: anything you could share about like how close you were
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: to sending sales somewhere other than the Red Sox.
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 4: That's basically accurate. I remember going to bed. I think
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 4: our flight was delayed because the storms and meetings were
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 4: in DC and there were storms in Chicago, so we
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 4: didn't get there on the first day. We wanted to
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 4: get there, but we made a lot of progress on
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 4: day two, and I remember going to bed on day two,
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 4: un told both Dombrowski Dave Debrowski was with Boston at
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 4: the time and Mike Rizzo with Washington. We're going to
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 4: decide this in the morning. Were down to two teams.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 4: We're going to make our choice in the morning. Spent
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 4: most of the night, as you guys can relate to
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 4: debating and zeroing in on what we wanted to do,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 4: and in the morning decided we were going with Boston.
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 4: Washington made an aggressive offer. Just again, you have to
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: make decisions at some point, and we felt more comfortable
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: to Boston offer. To Rizz's credit, you know, despite what
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 4: I'm sure was a great deal of frustration and feeling
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: like you're right on the doorstep of acquiring a player
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 4: like Chris Sale and then it not happening, he was
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: able to pivot when I raised the idea of you know,
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 4: what else are you guys looking to do, and we
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 4: talked about outfield, and then we talked about Eaton, and
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: then we had a great deal of foundation obviously a
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: number of weeks talking about their guys, and we were
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 4: able to very quickly come up with a package based
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 4: on those Sale conversations that we were able to consummate
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 4: in the next twenty four hours for.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Eating So you laid the groundwork, and it's amazing because
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: sometimes emotions get in the way, you know, in those
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 1: instances where the GM doesn't get exactly what he wants
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: and so now they're not willing to work. But it
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 1: sounds like you guys picked up right where he left
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: off in that.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 4: Yeah. And again, if for whatever reason he had told
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 4: me to take a hike, I would have gotten it.
• 1:03:37
  Speaker 4: I think you're right, it would have been more about emotion.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 4: And again to their to Washington's credit, they kept their
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 4: eyes on the prize and got a guy who helped
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 4: them win a world series because they able to remain
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 4: objective when it came to the next time to deal
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 4: with us.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: If I can have a redo, by the way, I
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: think no more Mazzara was. I wouldn't include him in
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: the Chris sale deal when you and I were talking.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 2: If we could go time machine back, I'd like.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 3: To redo there, please.
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I still managed to get him, and what was
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 4: his lack of production for us? Good guy though, very
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: good guy.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: He's something I want to ask both of you guys
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: to share kind of with with the listeners, is like
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: what does the trade deadline war room look like when
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 1: you guys were running shops, Like who was in the room,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: what were the conversations, Like how well did you know
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: the other gms tendencies relative to you need to text
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 1: a certain guy versus call a certain guy? Who were
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: on those calls for you guys, and like just just
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 1: paint the picture for the listeners.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 4: You go, JD.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: It definitely changed over the years as far as who
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: was in the room. You know, I always enjoyed having
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: like a big group get together. Probably waste a lot
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 2: of We were not efficient with our time.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: We did.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: I will say we did have a hell of a
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 2: snack table. We were really crushed it there. Uh.
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 3: But you know, we had a mix of you know.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 2: Front office staff, some of your more seasoned, experienced scouts.
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 2: We we always had several in the room. And there's
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: a fine line there, guys, because sometimes guys would bounce
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 2: out to go see somebody at target, come back in,
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: you know, and so some of your your more senior advisors,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: guys that you really leaned on, would also be your
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: best evaluators, and so that they were kind of in
• 1:05:28
  Speaker 2: and out. Certainly the role of the analysts grew, you know,
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 2: during our tenures, and that you know that piece, certainly
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: in the number of people in the room would grow.
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: But we were very inclusive.
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 2: I always felt like, I know, some people a little
• 1:05:42
  Speaker 2: worried about information getting out. We kind of erran on
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 2: the other side of inclusion and trust, and you know,
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: I'd rather get burned one time than than to create
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: this environment or feeling of kind of anxiety, and I
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: didn't want people worried about that. So it really felt
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: like a bigger room. Owners would come in and out,
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: depending pint. If the big league team was home, sometimes
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: the manager would would would poke his head and more
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 2: towards the end, you know, more towards the end, and generally,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: you know, I didn't want the manager.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: To involve there.
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 2: It's just kind of he's got enough on his plate.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: But certainly he was getting phone calls and as an
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 2: impacted the big league club the last price forty eight
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: seventy two hours or certainly more intense, you know, the
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 2: early on it's it's you know, some clubs aren't Some
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: clubs don't want to engage at all. Some clubs are
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 2: waiting for the deadline to really you know, drive, maybe
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 2: because they want to see where they're out in the standing.
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 2: Maybe because of the psychological impact that deadlines have on
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: all of us. We tended to be an early start
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: calls earlier. I don't know that we were early movers
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 2: so much, but we like to start the calls earlier,
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: in part because I enjoyed it.
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: I enjoyed that part of the job. I enjoyed talking
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 3: to our counterparts.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 2: I enjoyed talking to our scouts and our front office guys, and.
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: It was it was a fun process.
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 2: One thing that we did that you and I were
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: together that I also enjoyed was when they we would
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 2: go take it on the road. When the team was
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 2: on the road, we'd set up a war room, you know,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 2: bring out It was a smaller group, but you'd still
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 2: have you know, eight or ten folks in the room.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: And just being around the team, especially when you're buying.
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: I think when when you're a contender, being around the team,
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 2: having the feel of that, you know, it's it's a
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 2: rare opportunity for people in our positions to actually contribute
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 2: to the product on the field, to feel like you're
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 2: part of it, and to deliver something of value to
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: that group.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, get on the.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: Road and you get out of the offices, you get
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: out you know a little more open and little you know,
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 2: you can, especially when we were somewhere fun like California,
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: didn't get out and walk on the beach in the
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: morning to our old man walk.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: And talk about ideas.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 2: So yeah, it was it was a very enjoyable time
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: and enjoyable part of the job.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: And only two things I'd add that is, you can't
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: control Sometimes a call comes in at eleven PM and
• 1:08:08
  Speaker 4: you're depending on going to your point of knowing who
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: you're dealing with. There'd be certain guys who you know
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 4: are calling on a fishing exposition, and there's certain guys
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 4: who like, all right, if I don't we don't say
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: yes to this, it's going to be gone by morning.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 4: And that sort of fed into one of my regrets
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 4: is that as front offices got bigger and bigger, drawing
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 4: that line about who was in the war room became
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 4: more difficult because you do it. At some point it
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 4: becomes unproductive to have, you know, forty people sitting around
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 4: a room. But you also feel terrible when someone who
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: has spent all these hours and weeks and months away
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: from their family doing work, whether it's scouting or analysts
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 4: or even on the training side, coaching whatever, finds out
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 4: about a trade on Twitter like that. You're like, that
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 4: just sucks. And sometimes it's don't avoid because it happens
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 4: at midnight. You're not going to form a zoom call
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 4: or something like that. But that was something that I
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 4: wish I could have found a better way to make
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 4: everyone who contributed to that, which is a massive number,
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 4: even more now than obviously was ten years ago, feel
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 4: like their input was valued and factored into this acquisition
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 4: that we all made, not the two guys who were
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: talking about it at midnight.
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 1: People have such a more greater vested interest in the
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: outcome when they feel like they contributed to the decision making,
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: even if it's just on a cursory kind of perpheral way.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: I always felt like that was the time of year
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: where you wanted to create this meritocracy where it didn't
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: matter what your title was, your experience was. If you
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: had a good idea, if you had a good brainstorm,
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: let's run with it. Because I also found and you know,
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 1: this is something JD did a lot I tried to replicate,
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 1: which was having multiple people or at least one other
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: person listened to trade discussions when you were talking to
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 1: a GM, because sometimes you're so fixated on, you know,
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 1: making your next point, that you don't hear the entirety
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: of their point, and sometimes you miss a nuance or
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 1: some tone. And the reality is in so many of
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 1: these deals it's so easy to say no, and so
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 1: I think it was like it took a lot of
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: work to get to yes and then determining secondarily whether
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 1: yes was someplace you want to get to. But in
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 1: the vast majority of trade discussions I've ever had or
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 1: free agent discussions, at some point said well, I guess
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: we have nothing more to talk about, and then it's
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 1: you almost have to negotiate both sides of the deal
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 1: to make sure that they feel comfortable that you can
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: progress down something other than path A, because I'm not
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: sure I ever did a negotiation where it was just
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: one linear path. There was always you know, you're jumping
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: from from point to point to actually get to a
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 1: deal that actually makes sense for both sides. But I
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 1: also think something that's changed over our careers is you
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 1: guys used to be emblematic of who the gms were.
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 1: You know, you could have a straight conversation with somebody
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: in which they are very candid about what they were
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 1: trying to pursue. And I think there's a big gap
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: between when you're negotiating with somebody who's trying to get
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: a good player versus somebody who's trying to get a
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: good deal, and I think we've kind of shifted more
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: to people who are trying to get good deals, and
• 1:11:13
  Speaker 1: in that pursuit, they're far less willing to share information
• 1:11:17
  Speaker 1: because information is worth its weight in gold. And I
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 1: often find the most challenging negotiations were with people who
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 1: was clear that they were more interested in coveting information
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 1: than acquiring your player.
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: Very true, and.
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 4: I'd say, in my opinion, like two of the best
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 4: people to deal with were always Cashman in Domowski in
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: terms of they would tell you I want player X,
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: you'd ask about player Y and Z I can do
• 1:11:47
  Speaker 4: why I can't do Z? And you'd progress towards either
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 4: a deal or a stalemate. And those two are probably
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 4: headed to the Hall of Fame deservedly so when they're done.
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 4: Of fishermen, so to speak, like that's part of the gig,
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 4: Like you want to know what's going on. There is
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 4: this fomo element. You don't want to be missing out
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 4: on a potential three way if you can get a
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 4: little piece here or there, Like I get that, So
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 4: you have to almost tolerate that. I think as part
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 4: of the process. The only ones that I sort of
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 4: would get chapped with is is JD alluded to like
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 4: there's almost some teams that would have a script, like
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 4: if the deadline is four pm, then at three forty five,
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 4: we will offer this deal. At three point fifty two,
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 4: will offer that deal at three fifty five. If we
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 4: don't have a deal, we'll came to that And like
• 1:12:35
  Speaker 4: that isn't like you can easily lose the deal at
• 1:12:40
  Speaker 4: three thirty because they're going to go a different direction.
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 1: And I just didn't see.
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 4: The they Maybe it's part of why I'm sitting here
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 4: in my living room right now. The gamesmanship side of
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 4: that I didn't think serve the club long term. The relationships,
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 4: the trust, the can't the honesty tunic was where I
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 4: felt more comfortable, Like I would much rather do a
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 4: deal with one of you guys because of my our history,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 4: our relationship, our trust, how you treat people, how you
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 4: deal with information, the lack of things becoming public for
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 4: leverage in the media. Then I would someone who I
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 4: feel like is trying to use game theory on me
• 1:13:22
  Speaker 4: to manipulate a result that I you know, they think
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 4: they're going to outsmart me into if.
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: I recall one of the things that I did that
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: that would get under Rick's skin. Was that a lot
• 1:13:34
  Speaker 2: of time we have the give several people in the room,
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: you know, whether it's one other person just just that
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 2: there AJ, or there's five or twenty, and sometimes you'd
• 1:13:43
  Speaker 2: have them on speakerphone so other people could hear. Sometimes
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 2: you would tell the other guy, Hey, just heads up,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: I got you on speakerphone. I got so and so
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 2: in the room. But sometimes you wouldn't right, it just
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: kind of get going, and Rick would always be like, you, prick,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 2: do you have me on speakerphone right now? He'd call
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 2: you out because you can kind of hear the ten
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: It was either I don't know if you could hear it,
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: or you could hear Thad with his bag of chips
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 2: in the background.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 4: But either way, AJ couldn't stay quiet for more than
• 1:14:05
  Speaker 4: three minutes anyway, so eventually it was going to pop
• 1:14:07
  Speaker 4: into something.
• 1:14:10
  Speaker 1: You know, Ricky, you said it. But like I feel like,
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: as a general manager, you owe it to your owner
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 1: to be able to negotiate very productively with twenty nine
• 1:14:18
  Speaker 1: other clubs. And if you burn somebody for having done
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 1: a deal with lacking integrity. Now I'm down to twenty eight,
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 1: I'm down to twenty six and down to twenty two,
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 1: and at that point you should be replaced, like our
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: jobs require us such. I always my approach to negotiations
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: was that this one should pave the way for a
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: smoother next negotiation. And while I'm trying to effectively help
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: our franchise, there's no reason I shouldn't listen to your
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 1: needs and be.
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: Able to deliver a win to you as well.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 1: Hopefully I'm winning slightly more than you are, but it
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: shouldn't be to the extent to which I'm vanquishing my foe.
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 1: I'm costing you your job, and I'm losing integrity with you.
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's problematic. One thing I just before we
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 1: let Rick go, I do deadlines coming up by by,
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: by and large, and I just wanted to like touch
• 1:15:04
  Speaker 1: on a few teams that I think are unique positions
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 1: and just kind of get your guys' thoughts about what
• 1:15:10
  Speaker 1: direction they're having. So to start with, I think it's
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 1: interesting as we sit today within reason, the Kansas City
• 1:15:18
  Speaker 1: Royals and Arizona Diamondbacks are similarly. They have similar records,
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: they're similar games back of first place. There are similar
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 1: games back in the wild card. Yet buy and large,
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 1: it appears Arizona is selling and Kansas City is buying. Like,
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 1: what what do you guys make of those two teams
• 1:15:35
  Speaker 1: in very similar positions, behaving in very different ways.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of it. It does harken back
• 1:15:42
  Speaker 4: to some of the themes that we've talked about. There
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 4: is a ownership level of involvement. There is a window,
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 4: like you and I talked about, sort of how you
• 1:15:51
  Speaker 4: perceive your window. Excuse me, Arizona has a decent amount
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 4: of expiring contracts, especially on the pitching side, and their
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 4: best offensive player. Kansas City, you know, isn't quite sure
• 1:16:06
  Speaker 4: how much longer you know, they'll have Salvador Perez. Let's say,
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 4: you know, they had a couple of pitchers get hurt
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 4: who are going to be around perhaps later in the season,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 4: but certainly next year, and just isn't necessarily in their opinion,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 4: perhaps the time for a deeper cut, you know, again,
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: whether it's a stadium consideration in Kansas City which could
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: be factoring in, or whatever else may be on the
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 4: owner's mind. I was told once, you know, I presented
• 1:16:35
  Speaker 4: three different levels of objective data sewing that we had
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 4: between a nine and eleven percent chance of making the
• 1:16:40
  Speaker 4: wild card around a deadline, and I don't think Jerry
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 4: ever saw dumb and dumber, but he did drop basically,
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 4: so you're telling me there's a chance and didn't want
• 1:16:50
  Speaker 4: us to make certain moves that were going to cut
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 4: deep into the competitiveness. We didn't make the playoffs that year,
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 4: it would have been the right decision to sell. But
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 4: there's a lot of factors that go in of these things,
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 4: as we've talked about for the last hour or so.
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I think I actually talked to one
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 1: of our compatriots who works in a Western division, and
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: he said the Western and Eastern divisions don't have latitude
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 1: to make half steps that the Central does necessarily based
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 1: upon the payroll behemous and some of those divisions, And
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: so I wonder as Arizona's making these decisions. The other thing,
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: I think urgency factors in right. Like they went to
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 1: the World Series a couple of years ago, Kansas City
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 1: has not been in the playoffs. They made it last year.
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: There was an expectation of arrow up, but it was
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 1: you know, back to twenty fifteen, sixteen, their last playoff run.
• 1:17:39
  Speaker 1: Is like, urgency matters in some of these cases. One
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 1: other thing that I'm noting here is I'm looking at
• 1:17:46
  Speaker 1: the Detroit Tigers last year at the deadline. You know,
• 1:17:50
  Speaker 1: they kind of made news as they were on one
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: of these lists that the medias want to write where
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: they always annoint a winner and a loser of every
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: off season, every deadline. I don't know if they were
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: on the losers of the buying side or they were
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 1: on the winners of the selling side, but they sell
• 1:18:06
  Speaker 1: last year demonstratively, they end up winning the most games
• 1:18:09
  Speaker 1: down the stretch, they end up making a playoff run.
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: But like now, they're in a different position. Now. There's
• 1:18:14
  Speaker 1: a lot of expectations on the Detroit Tigers, and they
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: were kind of running away with the division but have
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 1: faltered a little bit recently. I wonder if that has
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 1: something to do with the weight of expectations. But I'm
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: very interested to see what they do. And also just
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 1: like a brief commentary from you guys on this notion
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 1: of like winning the deadline or the offseason or what
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 1: have you, and how infrequently that actually correlates to winning
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 1: on the field.
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think your point of the Tigers. Sometimes, you know,
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: what appears to be selling is giving opportunity to maybe
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: better players or certainly younger players or guys of different
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 2: energy and just kind of fit.
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: That the direction of the club.
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: That seems to be what Detroit benefited from last year,
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: and they've obviously rolled into this year having a great,
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: great year. I think regarding the you know, the winners, losers,
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: the grades, the you know, you see it at the deadline,
• 1:19:06
  Speaker 2: you see it at the drafts, right, which is crazy
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: when you're you're you're grading out of draft so many
• 1:19:10
  Speaker 2: years before you really have any sort of basis to
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: do it on. But also just that the headlines that
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 2: come with it. I wasn't with Tampa at the time,
• 1:19:20
  Speaker 2: but when Tampa and Saint Louis made the trade, Randy
• 1:19:23
  Speaker 2: rose Arena went went to Tampa and Matthew Liberto and
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 2: others went to went to the Cardinals, and I believe
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: reading the headline the next day was, you know, Tampa
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: trades for first baseman d H Jose Martinez, right, who
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: was a very small part of it, but he was
• 1:19:38
  Speaker 2: in the big league. So that's where you know, that's
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: where the kind of mainstream I went to. And yeah,
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: it's just a reminder that you know, the the intentions.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: Club's intentions are often you know, not obvious at that
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 2: these times, and and you know, like you like the
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: trust that there's a bigger plan in place.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm saying this is someone who want to unction
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 4: off seasons, but never a second ring. I get why
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 4: it exists. It's good clickbait. It's part of Frankly, what
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 4: drew probably all of us to the game initially was
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 4: the excitement about a transaction and a team forming itself
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 4: and ideally getting better for a stretch run or buying
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 4: hope for the future, but ultimately, like really something, I
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 4: grew up a cub excuse me, I grew up a
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 4: Bears fan, a Bulls fan. And what I lost in
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 4: this job working as a general manager and a front
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 4: office for baseball team, I lost the ability to be
• 1:20:36
  Speaker 4: like kissed off about their moves because anytime I'd be like, oh,
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 4: why they let that guy go? Why did how did
• 1:20:42
  Speaker 4: they not trait resign this guy, I would immediately pivot
• 1:20:45
  Speaker 4: back to I don't have all the information, Like I
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 4: don't know what's going on off the field. I don't
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 4: know about the finances, like all the things that factor
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 4: into the internal calculus that just aren't part of those
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 4: winners and losers grades or the fan reaction is what
• 1:21:01
  Speaker 4: makes them sort of hollow for me, like you just
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 4: can't grade someone without full information. That said, I understand
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 4: why they exist. That's what's necessary. It's what makes fandom passionate,
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 4: and it's part of the fun time of year. But
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 4: Detroit is a perfect example. Don't bother too much with
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 4: those winner and loser garades on Friday, because one of
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 4: them may wind up one of the losers, or one
• 1:21:25
  Speaker 4: of the sellers may wind up with a deep postseason run.
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 1: I think we've all probably seen it too. It's amazing
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 1: how motivating it is to a clubhouse when you insinuate
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 1: that you don't think they're good enough to win today.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes that really propels them down the path. And I
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: think that's what transpired last year. As my guess is,
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 1: they were highly motivated by this perception that the front
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 1: office insinuated they were further away than one season from winning.
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: They then ran with it down the stretch and ultimately
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 1: through this trait midway through this season, they were one
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 1: of the best records in the game, which is pretty exceptional. Okay,
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 1: so the last question I have for you guys today
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 1: is just it's on the other end of the spectrum,
• 1:22:06
  Speaker 1: which is the Atlanta Braves go into the season fan grafts.
• 1:22:10
  Speaker 1: I think we all have respect for their process of
• 1:22:13
  Speaker 1: how they put their projections together. Had picked them to
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 1: have the second best record projected based upon the strength
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 1: of their roster. They obviously falter, but actually if you
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 1: go to their site today, they're still projected to have
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: the seventh best record for the remainder of the season.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: But they sit seventeen games back in the ANL East
• 1:22:30
  Speaker 1: in twelve games back in the Wildcard. So clearly things
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: aren't going well. But that doesn't necessarily mean as general
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 1: managers we should blow up the team. We have to
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 1: understand what is an anomaly and what is something we
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 1: have to act on. And JD I was just going
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 1: to throw this to you first, like this reminds me
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: of the twenty fourteen Texas Rangers. We were decimated with injury,
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 1: but we thought that team was really good. We stayed patient,
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 1: We made some trades on the fringes, but we didn't
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 1: blow things up. We'd gone to the playoffs twenty ten
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: through twenty thirteen. We have the blip on the radar
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: twenty fourteen is a disastrous season, but then we go
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 1: back in fifteen and sixteen because you kind of had
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 1: to wherewithal to realize this was a one year exception,
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: not something that we should overreact to.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that kind of even to the previous discussion.
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: I think the contacts matter, and none of these are singular.
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: None of these these individual years are disconnected from the
• 1:23:21
  Speaker 2: years before and after, and it's a similar group of players,
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: and you know, we had built that group, they'd had
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: some success. The fourteen team was decimated with injuries.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 3: As you said, I.
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: Think we at the time we set records for a
• 1:23:32
  Speaker 2: number of DL days and dollars on the DL and
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: all back when you called it the DAL not the ILE.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 2: But you know, going into fifteen we got off to
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 2: a slow start, but there was a sense around that
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 2: club that they were capable of more that you know,
• 1:23:48
  Speaker 2: there was a the talent we felt was good, but
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 2: also just the way they played the game.
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 3: They were in every game.
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 2: It wasn't sloppy baseball, and so there were you know,
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: there's some reasons for us to leave, and kind of
• 1:24:02
  Speaker 2: a Rick's point earlier on, you know, a club with
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: a bunch of expiring contracts.
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: We didn't have that at that time.
• 1:24:07
  Speaker 2: We had a group that was under control for several
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: more years that was going to be together, and we
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: felt like if we could build on that, that we
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 2: you know, we wanted to do that again. That was
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: our opportunity to contribute to the products on the field,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 2: our opportunity to deliver something to that clubhouse, and fortunately,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 2: you know, for us, they went ahead and ran with
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 2: it and we won the next couple of years.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: It's the point you made about the message to the
• 1:24:32
  Speaker 4: clubhouse like that, that's huge in terms of even in
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 4: a year where it's not going to work like as
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 4: you alluded to it, the fourteen Rangers or perhaps this
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 4: year's Braves, showing that we still believe in what we're
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 4: doing here for the long term, I think is a
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 4: nice shot in the arm. And frankly, even when you
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 4: make the moves to the other direction like Detroit did
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 4: that last year, as you both said, it provides opportunities
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 4: for others in that clubhouse to step up, and even
• 1:25:00
  Speaker 4: more importantly, I think highlights, you know, how fantastic the
• 1:25:03
  Speaker 4: job that aj Hinch and that coaching staff did that
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 4: year to keep that group focused on that night's matter
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 4: at hand.
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 1: Well on behalf of JD, I just wanted to thank you,
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: Rick for joining us for this length of time and
• 1:25:16
  Speaker 1: sharing your insights into you know, your your robust relationship
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 1: with ownership. How you guys built a championship team in
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 1: two thousand and five, but then expertly rebuilt after that.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: There are very few of us who get opportunities to
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: excel on both fronts. You did it. You did it both,
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 1: and also you did it with exceptional integrity throughout your career.
• 1:25:35
  Speaker 1: You were always a guiding light for the rest of
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 1: us in the game. I truly appreciate your friendship, your guidance,
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 1: which is the best of luck in the future. Please
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 1: stay with us or the break here on rosters to rings.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 1: What an incredible conversation with Rick on JD. I mean,
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 1: we can talk about a number of the trades he made,
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 1: some of his assessments of this trade deadline, but where
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 1: I want to go with you is the amazing reveal
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: he had about the conversations he had with Jerry Reinsdorf
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: before he ultimately leaves the White Sox, in which he's
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: even referring to the fact that he almost was consoling
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 1: Jerry and guiding him through that process. Well, you also
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 1: had a similar situation in Texas, and a lot of
• 1:26:26
  Speaker 1: these things are private, so feel free to share whatever
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 1: you feel is appropriate. But how is your dismount from
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: your tenure with the Texas Rangers And what were your
• 1:26:36
  Speaker 1: conversations like with owner Ray Davis at the time leading
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: up to that decision?
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the first on Rick three, totally on a tremendous
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 2: conversation and not surprised that what he shared so much,
• 1:26:49
  Speaker 2: and is that he always carried himself with so much integrity,
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 2: And you know, I always felt you were getting a
• 1:26:55
  Speaker 2: straight shot with him. If you circle back to summer
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 2: of twenty two and you and you and I had
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: some of these conversations, but that it certainly was open
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 2: with people I was close with, I was you know,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 2: there was definitely a level of burnout.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 3: It's it's you know.
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 2: I never first of all, I never thought I would
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: get the GM job to begin with, But seventeen years later, that's,
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: you know, it was pretty nuts. And it becomes your identity, right,
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: My kids, as yours have been raised with us in
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 2: these roles, and so it becomes more.
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: Than just a job.
• 1:27:28
  Speaker 2: It's it's a lifestyle, it's an identity, it's your family.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: You know, you trust a lot of people around you,
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: so there's their emotional ties to it. That being said,
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: like I, I was not maybe joining it the same
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: way that I that I had in the past. And
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 2: I and I was aware, self aware enough to know that,
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 2: you know, it was probably time. So I had communicated
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 2: to some people, including you know see why, Chris Young
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 2: and I had.
• 1:27:52
  Speaker 3: Had a conversation several conversations where I.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 2: Had told them I was planning on my contract was
• 1:27:58
  Speaker 2: gonna up at the end of the year.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: I aught it made sense to step away. At that point,
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: he and I talked about maybe staying on as an.
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: Advisor to him, and then we we this was a
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: catalyst for some of these conversations, and we had made
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: a tough decision to make a change and manager and
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 2: so we made the change. Chris and I had those
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: conversations on Saturday, Sunday. We made the managerial change on Monday,
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: and uh, you know, to my uh, you.
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 3: Know, probably a mistake.
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: The one person I didn't tell about my plans at
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: the end of the year was was Ray Davis.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 3: You know it was the owner of the club, and
• 1:28:40
  Speaker 3: Ray was.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 2: Always very fair with me, and you know, worked worked
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: for him for a long time since you know, he
• 1:28:47
  Speaker 2: and his group brought the team in twenty ten. But
• 1:28:50
  Speaker 2: Ray called a meeting with c Why myself on Tuesday night.
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 2: I asked us to come in Wednesday morning. I remember
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: talking to say and you know, it felt a little off,
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 2: but it wasn't wasn't expecting what happened. And walked into
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: his room and and and Ray asked see Why to
• 1:29:10
  Speaker 2: excuse us for a minute. And then Ray you know,
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: told us, told me that he was gonna, you know,
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 2: making the decision to to move on and that he
• 1:29:17
  Speaker 2: was going to elevate see Why into the role.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 3: And you know.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: I think Ray asked me, he said, what what do
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: you need from me? And I said, I just need
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: I need a couple of hours before this gets out.
• 1:29:26
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure I can, you know, talk
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 2: to my family and especially my kids there in school.
• 1:29:30
  Speaker 2: I want to make sure I can tell them in
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: person and.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: Listen.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: I think in if I was advising you know, Ray
• 1:29:38
  Speaker 2: at that time, I think there there might have been
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 2: a you know, a softer way to do it. You know,
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 2: I wasn't gonna you know, certainly run to the media
• 1:29:48
  Speaker 2: or anything like that.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 3: I I you know.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: Hindsight, I would have loved the opportunity to do it,
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: you know a little more of a mutual deal or
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: stepped down at the end of the year, but certainly
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 2: his prerogative to do so. You know, I have been
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: able to still be a friend and advisor to see
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 2: why I'll be it from a distance and now with
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: another club, you know, a little bit of a there's
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a bridge there. But yeah, nothing
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: but respect and appreciation for you know, the Rangers organization,
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 2: Ray and all that they did for me and my career.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 3: And my family.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 2: But it was an emotional time, as you know, you
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: and I had several conversations at that time.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 3: It's again, it's your identity. It's it's you.
• 1:30:26
  Speaker 2: You put a lot into these jobs and they give
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: a lot back. Don't get me wrong on that. You know,
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 2: this is not me crying about anything, but it is.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: It's something that fortunately I hadn't had to go through before,
• 1:30:39
  Speaker 2: and it was learned a lot about myself and thankfully
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: my my Robin and the kids actually still like me,
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: and and so going home and spending more time at
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: home was a It was a very fortunate thing for me,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: and I'm, you know, in a much better place now
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 2: than I was.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and obviously I'm very close to you, and so
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 1: I'm a little bit biased in this, but I'm just
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 1: going to say the words is that I think what
• 1:31:03
  Speaker 1: you bring up is like, these roles are really public,
• 1:31:06
  Speaker 1: and they're also there's a ton of pressure. So as
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: awesome as these jobs are, seventeen years into your employment,
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: it does take a toll on you. And as best
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: we try to be the best people at work and
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 1: the best fathers and husbands that we could be. Their
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: sacrifices made along the way, and I know your heart
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 1: was in the right place, your head was in the
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: right place, you would have counseled them in a different
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 1: direction at the time. But I do think owners in
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 1: these situations feel compelled at times to make public statements
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 1: that whatever is transpired in the organization, we need to
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 1: make a move. And I always felt as a general
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 1: manager you needed to be very thoughtful about when you
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 1: wanted to replace, let's say a manager, because I think
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 1: what you're saying is they're not doing well enough with
• 1:31:48
  Speaker 1: the talent that you're giving them, but you're also escalating
• 1:31:51
  Speaker 1: the responsibility then to you, because then there's a reflection
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 1: on well, are we giving them the most talent that
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 1: is appropriate to win. Similarly, when an owner makes this
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 1: type of decision and says, hey, whatever you're doing isn't
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 1: good enough, then I think the pressure has put square
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: land them. What resources. Additionally, are they prepared to invest
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: to try to win because they're saying we're not winning
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 1: enough with the current resources and the current personnel. But
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 1: I think all too often those things are conflated and
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 1: we think we have to make a change with the
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 1: person rather than just changing some of the processes and
• 1:32:23
  Speaker 1: procedures were undertaking. I think that was the fork in
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 1: the road that you got to. But the contribution you
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 1: made in your life to the Texas Rangers, you will
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: be a Hall of Famer there, very well deserved. I'm
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: dying to go back to that event and get a
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 1: chance to just sit on the field and watch you
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: get celebrated the way you should. You practiced so many
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 1: people's lives, their mind included, but a fan base for
• 1:32:47
  Speaker 1: generations to come. So congratulations to you, and I know
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 1: that was a tough dismount, but it was also one
• 1:32:55
  Speaker 1: that if you were able to counsel them, it probably
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 1: could have gone.
• 1:32:57
  Speaker 3: A little bit smoother than it had.
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 2: Appreciate that man, everything you just said, Uh, you know,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: we grew up there in large part right as as
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: man as As executives said that we learned a ton.
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 1: Uh.
• 1:33:12
  Speaker 3: And I wouldn't you know, change change anything about it.
• 1:33:15
  Speaker 2: In fact, I think, you know, my wife Robin has
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: made the point that maybe better off not having it played.
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 2: I thought I was gonna maybe stay on there as
• 1:33:23
  Speaker 2: an advisor, but maybe everybody's better off. For certainly the
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: club wins the next year, and maybe it allows c
• 1:33:30
  Speaker 2: Y some space to you know, do things his own
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 2: way and not worry about, you know, offending his predecessor
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: and his friend. And I got a you know, an
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: opportunity to come here in Tampa and learn a ton
• 1:33:42
  Speaker 2: and be around just a tremendous culture and work with
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: some outstanding people. So and furthermore, I think I get
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 2: more time at home.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 3: Uh you know.
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 2: Uh, My guess is that had I stayed with Texas,
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 2: that would have been you know, probably more involved than
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: I and I was ready to be at that time.
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 3: And so it all's well, that ends well, and very
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: grateful for my time there.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: Well, thank you again for joining us for this episode.
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: Tremendous insights from both Rickcon and John Daniels about the
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: challenges associated with being in the seat but also how
• 1:34:18
  Speaker 1: you're dismounting from those careers are extremely cathartic. Thank you
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: again for joining us for yet another fantastic episode of
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 1: Roster Syrings. Thank you to John Daniels and too Rickcon.
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 1: Join us next week where we'll break down the entire
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 1: trade deadline on rosters ter Rings. Please join me host
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: That Levine, Ryan McDonough, and other general managers every week
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: for Roster Syrings on Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get
• 1:34:49
  Speaker 1: your podcasts.