Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Shocking Details! Kansas Moms Update - AUTOPSY OF JILLIAN KELLEY

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Shocking Details! Kansas Moms Update - AUTOPSY OF JILLIAN KELLEY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Bodybugs, but Joseph's gotten more. Have you ever gotten a
0:07
Speaker 1: phone call in the middle of the night and not
0:13
Speaker 1: work related, but you have somebody that at least counts
0:18
Speaker 1: you as a friend and they say, hey, can you
0:23
Speaker 1: help me out with something? Unfortunately, I've had that call
0:28
Speaker 1: that has come to me from jails every now and
0:32
Speaker 1: then with friends that made really bad decisions, primarily involving
0:37
Speaker 1: an alcohol.
0:38
Speaker 2: However, today.
0:42
Speaker 1: On body Backs, we're going to talk about case actually
0:47
Speaker 1: cases that so caught the attention of America, not merely
0:55
Speaker 1: because it was one lady helping out another, but the
1:02
Speaker 1: absolute gruesome nature of their murders was something that most
1:09
Speaker 1: of the people around the United States could not begin
1:15
Speaker 1: to comprehend. This is a follow up to an earlier
1:22
Speaker 1: episode of body Bags, I think from back in April
1:26
Speaker 1: of twenty four, but today we have more information. Today
1:32
Speaker 1: we have the autopsy report of Jillian Dolores.
1:39
Speaker 2: Kelly.
1:42
Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is body Bags.
1:48
Speaker 2: Dave.
1:48
Speaker 1: I know you. I know you better than you might think.
1:52
Speaker 1: I know that if you've got a friend and they
1:55
Speaker 1: called you up to say can you help me with something?
1:59
Speaker 1: You're the dude that would hop in your shoes, grab
2:02
Speaker 1: your keys, and head out to your car and go
2:05
Speaker 1: do this. How much more so if maybe it was
2:09
Speaker 1: where you're put in almost a custodial position with people
2:13
Speaker 1: that have, you know, kind of a fragile existence, perhaps
2:17
Speaker 1: they're really down and out, and the court says, we
2:21
Speaker 1: trust you to take care of this person. I know
2:26
Speaker 1: that you would do that. I even think that maybe
2:29
Speaker 1: you have done that, Joe.
2:31
Speaker 3: You know, I have been the person that gets the
2:35
Speaker 3: call in the middle of the night, and I don't
2:36
Speaker 3: mind it. It's actually an honor and a privilege to
2:40
Speaker 3: be that person. It is inconvenient, you do loosely, but
2:45
Speaker 3: it is an honor to be there for somebody when
2:48
Speaker 3: if they feel like the guy nowhere else to turn,
2:50
Speaker 3: because you earn the right to share the truth with them. Then.
2:52
Speaker 3: But I've had the opportunity to be every aspect of
2:57
Speaker 3: the case we're dealing with to day. With Jilly and
2:59
Speaker 3: Kelly's autops I'm gonna tell you what this woman is,
3:02
Speaker 3: the Saint Joe. Jillian Kelly is married to her pastor husband.
3:05
Speaker 3: They got married in twenty two thousand and two. They
3:08
Speaker 3: have four children. Jillian Kelly works with children in the church.
3:12
Speaker 3: She's the church secretary. Just a wonderful woman. Veronica Butler
3:17
Speaker 3: has supervised visitation with her children. Veronica Butler and Wrangler
3:21
Speaker 3: Rickman have two children. Tiffany Adams is Wrangler Rickman's mom.
3:26
Speaker 3: That makes her the paternal grandparents to Veronica Butler's children.
3:31
Speaker 3: Veronica Butler had trouble in her life in the past,
3:34
Speaker 3: enough so that she lost custody of her children to
3:37
Speaker 3: Tiffany Adams. But now she's righted her life. She's in church,
3:41
Speaker 3: she's engaged, she's got a job, she went back to school.
3:44
Speaker 3: Her life is on track.
3:45
Speaker 2: Man.
3:45
Speaker 3: Veronica Butler's doing good, so good. In fact, she's going
3:48
Speaker 3: back to court and they're going to award her custody
3:50
Speaker 3: of her children. She's getting her children back. She's excited,
3:53
Speaker 3: but she's still at this moment has custody every I mean,
3:58
Speaker 3: she has a supervised visitors with her children every Saturday.
4:03
Speaker 3: And Tiffany Adams was not about to give up cussidy
4:07
Speaker 3: of those children to Ronica Butler. She didn't care if
4:09
Speaker 3: that's her mom. She wanted the children and that was it.
4:12
Speaker 3: So Tiffany Adams calls the woman who regularly supervises visitation
4:17
Speaker 3: for Veronica Butler and cancels it. Tiffany Adams tells her,
4:20
Speaker 3: we aren't gonna need you this time. I'll call you
4:23
Speaker 3: when we need you again. Then she calls Veronica Butler
4:26
Speaker 3: and says, hey, Veronica, the court liaison, the supervisor of
4:30
Speaker 3: visitation just canceled. I don't know what we'll do, and
4:33
Speaker 3: Butler says, that's okay. I've got somebody. She goes to
4:37
Speaker 3: Jillian Kelly at church. Jillian says, sure, I'll go. They're
4:40
Speaker 3: not buddies or palas, but they're friendly, and Jillian says, sure,
4:44
Speaker 3: I'll beat the guy.
4:45
Speaker 2: I'll go with you.
4:46
Speaker 3: So Veronica Butler gets Jillian Kelly and here they go.
4:50
Speaker 3: They are going to meet to get the children on
4:53
Speaker 3: March thirtieth. That is what they're going to do. It's
4:56
Speaker 3: arranged for them to meet at this well, it's a
4:59
Speaker 3: close tog station now, but that's where they were going
5:02
Speaker 3: to meet to exchange the children. Bronica Butler would pick
5:05
Speaker 3: them up there and she and Jillian would take Kendall
5:07
Speaker 3: and the other child and go to the birthday party
5:11
Speaker 3: that was planned for Kendall. Well, they never showed up
5:14
Speaker 3: at the birthday party and the family starts calling, hey,
5:18
Speaker 3: Bronicum and Jillian never showed up with the kids, what's
5:21
Speaker 3: going on. That's when we first got this story. These
5:24
Speaker 3: two Kansas moms going to pick up the kids, never
5:28
Speaker 3: arrived with them. What happened.
5:32
Speaker 1: I've covered so many cases and work so many cases
5:34
Speaker 1: over my career where people did not realize that at
5:40
Speaker 1: that moment tom when they walked out of the door
5:45
Speaker 1: they looked into the eyes of their spouse or to
5:49
Speaker 1: their precious babies, that that was going to be the
5:54
Speaker 1: last time they ever saw them. And how much more
5:57
Speaker 1: so not seeing the future, not knowing that your life
6:04
Speaker 1: is going to end literally at the hands of a
6:08
Speaker 1: mob on a dirty, dusty road and a panhandle of Oklahoma.
6:30
Speaker 1: I'm born witness to some let's just say, odd and
6:35
Speaker 1: disturbing things in the autopsy suite, and you never, and
6:40
Speaker 1: I mean this with everything that's in me, you never
6:44
Speaker 1: know what's going to happen when you open a bodybag.
6:48
Speaker 2: Period.
6:49
Speaker 1: You really you don't know what has been brought in
6:52
Speaker 1: from the field. Because many times, in my case, I'd
6:55
Speaker 1: work at night as an investigator, I'd be the autopsy
6:58
Speaker 1: assistant during the day and it might not be my case.
7:02
Speaker 1: I may have read over a thumbnail description, but Dave,
7:05
Speaker 1: when you come into an autopsy room and there has
7:12
Speaker 1: been a gigantic deep freezer that has been brought from
7:17
Speaker 1: a scene that still has straps on it, you suspect,
7:24
Speaker 1: as an investigator at scene, that what you're going to
7:27
Speaker 1: have in there is going to be very bad. But
7:30
Speaker 1: when you open when you open that door and you
7:33
Speaker 1: look inside of there, there are things in my brain
7:38
Speaker 1: right now that I'm recalling as I'm talking right now,
7:40
Speaker 1: I can still see those images. I can still get
7:43
Speaker 1: hit and even after all these years, I can still
7:45
Speaker 1: get hit in the face with that smell that emanates
7:49
Speaker 1: from the sealed area, which in effect is a casket
7:55
Speaker 1: for not just one, but for two women. Dave, It's
8:00
Speaker 1: it's a monumental undertaking. And I think people many times
8:04
Speaker 1: are shocked that we don't open things, it seems and
8:09
Speaker 1: remove the items. If you have that body or bodies contained,
8:16
Speaker 1: it's best to keep them contained, okay, And then you
8:20
Speaker 1: bring them to a location that is well lighted. You've
8:24
Speaker 1: got primo photography. You document the steps of opening up
8:29
Speaker 1: the thing. And let me tell you one more thing
8:31
Speaker 1: that would have been done prior to them ever, undoing
8:34
Speaker 1: these large yellow straps that are on the outside this
8:41
Speaker 1: freezer would have been thoroughly externally printed, dusted for prints,
8:48
Speaker 1: looking for any kind of latent contact prints. It's a
8:53
Speaker 1: sight to behold because you never know, never know what's
8:58
Speaker 1: going to be contained inside out of any box like this.
9:03
Speaker 1: I've had coffins I've had, I have had not a freezer.
9:06
Speaker 1: I've had a refrigerator where the shells removed. I've had
9:10
Speaker 1: blocks of concrete that have contained human remains where you
9:14
Speaker 1: have to chisel it away. I've had cars where I've
9:17
Speaker 1: had multiple people killed in it. And I used to think,
9:21
Speaker 1: being in charge, you're literally if you're the investigator, you're
9:24
Speaker 1: in charge of the bodies. And we all came to
9:26
Speaker 1: a consensus at the scene that it would be better
9:30
Speaker 1: not to remove the bodies from the car, but have
9:32
Speaker 1: them flat bedded to the state crime lab and you
9:35
Speaker 1: cover it with a tarp, and you know, like you
9:37
Speaker 1: have this horrible thought in your brain that you're literally
9:42
Speaker 1: transporting bodies you're in I remember, in particularly I eighty
9:46
Speaker 1: five in Atlanta, removing a car to a local lot
9:50
Speaker 1: that had five people inside of it and all we
9:54
Speaker 1: had it covered with was a blue crash tarp on
9:57
Speaker 1: the back of a flat bed. And you know, as
10:00
Speaker 1: an investigator, you think your worst nightmare is that the
10:02
Speaker 1: tarp is going to fly off, and here you're gonna have,
10:05
Speaker 1: you know, bodies. If anybody's ever driven through the hellscape
10:09
Speaker 1: that is the highway system in Atlanta, you can get
10:12
Speaker 1: caught up in traffic. They don't they don't move out
10:14
Speaker 1: of the way for a wrecker, they don't move out
10:17
Speaker 1: of the way for cops most of the time. But
10:19
Speaker 1: how much more so than the record and the thing
10:20
Speaker 1: comes off. Can you imagine you've got kids, you know,
10:23
Speaker 1: and you kind of look and you know it's even
10:26
Speaker 1: to this day when I see things going down the
10:28
Speaker 1: road that are strapped down on the back of a car,
10:31
Speaker 1: like a freezer or something, I'm always thinking, I wonder
10:34
Speaker 1: if that's empty. I wonder if it's empty. And I've
10:37
Speaker 1: had a few times in my life since being on
10:41
Speaker 1: the streets where I've seen police escorting flatbed trucks and
10:46
Speaker 1: they've got a tarp over them, and I know what's
10:49
Speaker 1: under the tar. The civilians stone around you. But you
10:52
Speaker 1: you want to maintain that pristine nature.
10:55
Speaker 3: I was going to ask you when all right, when
10:57
Speaker 3: they got there in the in this particular case, investigators
11:03
Speaker 3: determined where Tad Cullum, that is, the boyfriend of Tiffany Adams,
11:06
Speaker 3: had dug the hole and everything ahead of time, and
11:11
Speaker 3: they found the bodies at the scene. They were ten
11:13
Speaker 3: feet down, okay, a ten feet deep hole had been dug.
11:17
Speaker 3: The freezer was placed at well, some items were thrown in,
11:20
Speaker 3: A phone and some other items of evidence were thrown
11:23
Speaker 3: into the hole. Then the freezer was dumped in there.
11:26
Speaker 3: Then cement block and everything else was then thrown into
11:30
Speaker 3: the hole and then dirt and everything else mashed down
11:33
Speaker 3: when they got it dug up. You said that they're
11:36
Speaker 3: not going to they're not going to take anything out
11:39
Speaker 3: right then, but they still have to identify what is
11:42
Speaker 3: in the freezer, even though they believe it to be
11:45
Speaker 3: Veronica Butler and Jilly and Kelly but well, they're not
11:49
Speaker 3: going to do a big examine and.
11:52
Speaker 1: At the scene, just full disclosure here. They did briefly
11:55
Speaker 1: open it at the scene, so they cracked You cracked
12:00
Speaker 1: the side of it, and there had been tape that
12:03
Speaker 1: was adherent on the outside. It's you know, when this
12:07
Speaker 1: thing is brought to the me. Even in the report
12:12
Speaker 1: section of the autopsy report, and when I say report section,
12:15
Speaker 1: it's actually the medical legal investigations subheading in the report,
12:20
Speaker 1: they allude to the fact that tape was no longer there.
12:23
Speaker 1: So that leads me to believe it had been taped
12:25
Speaker 1: shut at some point in time. Now they had to
12:27
Speaker 1: strap this thing down. But yeah, so they they would
12:31
Speaker 1: have lifted this thing at the scene, peaked over the
12:35
Speaker 1: edge into the cooler or the freezer to assess what
12:40
Speaker 1: was in there, because you know, you don't necessarily know,
12:44
Speaker 1: you have your suspicions. Okay, And here's another thing, and
12:48
Speaker 1: I know this sounds really far field, but if this
12:51
Speaker 1: scene was booby trapped in some way, I mean, you're
12:53
Speaker 1: talking about a double homicide. Okay, it's not beyond the
12:58
Speaker 1: pail to think that someone that was willing to commit
13:02
Speaker 1: this kind of homicide, would you know, perhaps uh, put
13:07
Speaker 1: other people at risk. All right, you don't know. You
13:10
Speaker 1: never know what you're going to get, you know, when
13:12
Speaker 1: you open any door.
13:13
Speaker 2: Whether it's every Yeah, to me.
13:16
Speaker 1: It's terrifying. I've had friends that have that have gone
13:18
Speaker 1: on to booby trapped scenes where people have committed suicide
13:21
Speaker 1: and they're booby trapped with weapons. I have one friend
13:24
Speaker 1: it's almost shot in the in the chest with a
13:26
Speaker 1: three to eight deer rifle because he opened a closet
13:30
Speaker 1: and it had a trigger on it, a line trigger
13:33
Speaker 1: tension thing, no, and he happened to be the round
13:37
Speaker 1: actually passed in front of him. So my my paranoia,
13:42
Speaker 1: I guess, is that the right term is not unwarranted.
13:44
Speaker 1: I look at all of these things as if because
13:47
Speaker 1: I want to go home at the end of the day.
13:49
Speaker 3: So you guys, get the breezer back in and you
13:50
Speaker 3: get it. You're afraid as you're getting ready to.
13:52
Speaker 1: Do yeah, wow, Yeah, I know it's terrifying, and.
13:56
Speaker 3: I was terrified by what was inside. Not not a bomb.
14:00
Speaker 1: Body, listen, man, Look, I don't put anything past anybody
14:04
Speaker 1: that'll commit a homicide, particularly of a stranger and then
14:11
Speaker 1: a mother, if they're willing to eradicate them off the
14:16
Speaker 1: face of the plant. My life means nothing to them whatsoever, Okay,
14:20
Speaker 1: or my colleagues that might be there. And that's just
14:23
Speaker 1: like one of the little boxes that you want to
14:24
Speaker 1: tick and check at that point in time and try
14:27
Speaker 1: to understand that but once you get past that, you
14:30
Speaker 1: have to take due care, because, Dave, this freezer, this
14:35
Speaker 1: deep freeze, had been it had the utility of a coffin, right,
14:43
Speaker 1: actually a casket, it was. Yeah, and then I don't know,
14:49
Speaker 1: I don't know the answer to this question. I'm just
14:51
Speaker 1: throwing this out there, all right. Let me give you
14:54
Speaker 1: the dimensions on this just so that you and our
14:57
Speaker 1: friends can appreciate it. So, not only did they have
15:02
Speaker 1: this rather large freezer, okay, but you'd mentioned something just
15:08
Speaker 1: a second ago, there was a slab of concrete that
15:12
Speaker 1: was placed on top of it. Dave, Let me give
15:14
Speaker 1: you the dimensions.
15:15
Speaker 2: Are you ready, brother? Yep?
15:17
Speaker 1: Okay, The dimensions of the slab of concrete are ninety
15:23
Speaker 1: two inches. Keep in mind, six feet tall is seventy
15:27
Speaker 1: two inches, okay, by sixty inches okay, all right? That's
15:34
Speaker 1: with linked with and the depth of this thing. The
15:38
Speaker 1: thickness of it, dude, the slab is eight inches in thickness.
15:43
Speaker 2: Holy moly, do you realize what.
15:45
Speaker 1: Kind of equipment you would have to have in place
15:47
Speaker 1: in order to move a slab like that? I mean,
15:51
Speaker 1: you could have I don't know, maybe you could have
15:54
Speaker 1: a bunch of really a bunch of robust country boys
16:00
Speaker 1: that could, you know, put to dig their hands into
16:03
Speaker 1: it and drop it down. But I'm not thinking that.
16:06
Speaker 1: I'm thinking this is something first off, you have to
16:08
Speaker 1: acquire it. Where do you even find a slab of
16:11
Speaker 1: that size that's bigger, that's actually bigger than a slab
16:15
Speaker 1: that you would find on top of a standard grave site,
16:18
Speaker 1: you know, if you go to the two huge to
16:20
Speaker 1: the cemetery. Yeah, and you're walking along and they've got
16:23
Speaker 1: the big slabs that are laid down the ground. There's
16:25
Speaker 1: a headstone, there's that's bigger than that. This is something
16:28
Speaker 1: that you would only see probably in construction, all right,
16:32
Speaker 1: and it's that's one of the most striking things, you know,
16:37
Speaker 1: when they would have gotten out to that scene, to
16:40
Speaker 1: the grave site and begun to assess this scene. And
16:45
Speaker 1: remember this is a give or take. Hang on, I've
16:49
Speaker 1: got to review this real quick, because, yeah, you're talking
16:52
Speaker 1: two weeks down range, right, we don't know what the
16:55
Speaker 1: weather was like. They went missing back in March. They're
16:57
Speaker 1: found in April. I know what I would be really
17:02
Speaker 1: interested in knowing is, first off, what type of tracks
17:09
Speaker 1: are around the gravesite, because if you're talking about front
17:14
Speaker 1: and loader or skid.
17:15
Speaker 2: Steer or a skid steer or somebody.
17:18
Speaker 1: It's going to be very distinctive. It's not going to
17:20
Speaker 1: look like tire tracks, dude, And you're talking about carrying
17:23
Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of weight, not that those things aren't
17:26
Speaker 1: made for that, but if you think about that and
17:29
Speaker 1: the pressure that's going to be applied directly on those tires,
17:33
Speaker 1: the supporting element of that vehicle and pressing it down
17:36
Speaker 1: into the dirt, if you're carrying a heavy load, you're
17:39
Speaker 1: going to get come away with really good impressions from that.
17:42
Speaker 1: And that's very specific to that piece of equipment. This
17:45
Speaker 1: isn't just like a truck Papa's truck driving down a
17:48
Speaker 1: country road. This is something that's very specific. And why
17:51
Speaker 1: would you have a skid steer out in the middle
17:53
Speaker 1: of a field like this.
17:55
Speaker 3: Well, actually it was the area that it was. It
17:58
Speaker 3: was about fifty feet from the dam and there was
18:01
Speaker 3: like a shed area out there that Tad had been
18:04
Speaker 3: working on and he notified the owner of the property
18:07
Speaker 3: that he was leasing part of it from that he
18:10
Speaker 3: was going to be doing some work out there. You
18:12
Speaker 3: know that he was going to be burying some ce men.
18:14
Speaker 3: He had told him that. Then this is two days
18:17
Speaker 3: before the bodies were the two days before Veronica Butler
18:22
Speaker 3: and Jillian Kelly went missing. He tells the guy that
18:24
Speaker 3: owns the place, you know, the work he's doing. Then
18:27
Speaker 3: after they go missing, he tells the owner, Yeah, I'm
18:30
Speaker 3: a suspect. They're missing, and you're a suspect, really, And
18:34
Speaker 3: that's why this fell apart so quick, because, dude.
18:38
Speaker 1: You know, in your brain, okay, let's just say you're.
18:39
Speaker 3: Going to tell anybody you're a suspect.
18:42
Speaker 1: Well, I'm thinking let's go back before that, because you know,
18:45
Speaker 1: this is one of those moments where you say, does
18:46
Speaker 1: your mind work? You know, you're sitting there and you're
18:50
Speaker 1: thinking about this, So you're leasing, not purchasing your leasing property.
18:55
Speaker 1: Guess what happens to Lisa's Lisa's runout. Yeah, the property
18:59
Speaker 1: own you know, still retains this. So if he's going
19:03
Speaker 1: to go in I don't know and drop a crop
19:05
Speaker 1: of whatever it is they grow in Oklahoma, weed or
19:09
Speaker 1: corn or whatever it is, and all of a sudden
19:13
Speaker 1: his plow gets hung up on the lip of this thing.
19:16
Speaker 1: Do you not do you in what universe? Do you
19:19
Speaker 1: think that this is not going to be discovered. My
19:22
Speaker 1: thought was, and this is so horrific, but I'm going
19:26
Speaker 1: to go ahead and say it, because this is what
19:27
Speaker 1: we talk about on body bags.
19:31
Speaker 2: Did did they have.
19:33
Speaker 1: Plans perhaps to passively render these bodies down inside of
19:39
Speaker 1: this thing, come back later when the heat was off,
19:44
Speaker 1: draw it up, or take out those remains and dispose
19:47
Speaker 1: of them in some other way. I toyed with that idea,
19:52
Speaker 1: you know, because I can't. I can't make sense of it,
19:56
Speaker 1: you know, just the leasing element alone. But you know,
20:00
Speaker 1: if you're using a skitzteer like this, it's not going
20:02
Speaker 1: to take too long to facilitate a big hole in
20:07
Speaker 1: the ground, if you will. And that's certainly what happened.
20:11
Speaker 1: And again, Dave, as we mentioned earlier, what does this
20:14
Speaker 1: go to, Well, it goes to I don't know, something
20:18
Speaker 1: called premeditation, yep.
20:21
Speaker 3: And that's the killer on all of this. It's the
20:23
Speaker 3: fact that this was planned out, thought out, and they
20:26
Speaker 3: thought this was the best they could come up with.
20:28
Speaker 3: By the way, the location of the bodies in the freezer,
20:33
Speaker 3: eight miles from where the car was stopped, okay, eight
20:36
Speaker 3: miles from where they were abducted, is that's how this
20:40
Speaker 3: was all planned out, Joe. Now they've got the freezer
20:44
Speaker 3: out and you're now transporting it. It's taped, it's tarped
20:48
Speaker 3: and everything else. It gets back to the lab and
20:53
Speaker 3: other than a cursory perfunctory look to see there are
20:57
Speaker 3: two bodies on the inside that two bodies were looking
20:59
Speaker 3: for and shutting it. They don't know if there's anything
21:02
Speaker 3: else in there. They don't know if this freezer has
21:05
Speaker 3: other things, other people even they just know they saw
21:08
Speaker 3: two bodies that the women they're looking for. And so
21:12
Speaker 3: back of the lab when you open it up, we
21:14
Speaker 3: know that they've been in there for two weeks at least,
21:18
Speaker 3: you know, because we know when they went missing, and
21:20
Speaker 3: we know when they found the freezer.
21:21
Speaker 2: So there you go.
21:23
Speaker 3: They were killed the day they were abducted, apparently, is
21:26
Speaker 3: what it appears. Based on the road, based on the
21:29
Speaker 3: blood at the scene in the road, based on the
21:33
Speaker 3: blood in the vehicle where the vehicle came to rest
21:35
Speaker 3: one thousand feet from the road, Take two and two,
21:39
Speaker 3: they were dead.
21:41
Speaker 1: And the broken of the broken hammer, which is a
21:45
Speaker 1: nice a nice touch, right.
21:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, chances are if they break a hammer beating you,
21:48
Speaker 3: you're not surviving that beating.
21:50
Speaker 1: No you're not.
21:51
Speaker 3: But once they get them back to the crime lab
21:54
Speaker 3: or the where do they take these to do an
21:57
Speaker 3: autopsy with the state.
21:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're going to go in and it's dependent the
22:02
Speaker 1: Oklahoma does not have corners, all right, and this is
22:05
Speaker 1: where they have. Yeah, they have, they have, and it's
22:07
Speaker 1: a fine office. They actually have a state medical examiner.
22:11
Speaker 1: So the state is kind of regionalized, all right. And
22:14
Speaker 1: you've got the Central Division, the Eastern Division. I think
22:17
Speaker 1: the Eastern Division is based in Tulsa, and of course
22:19
Speaker 1: the Central Divisions in Oklahoma City.
22:22
Speaker 3: You know what, I just remembered.
22:23
Speaker 1: What's up?
22:23
Speaker 3: Though? You have told me how good they are in
22:26
Speaker 3: Oklahoma in the system they use. I just remember. It
22:29
Speaker 3: just came to mind that you've bragged about how good
22:32
Speaker 3: they are before.
22:33
Speaker 1: Well, I'm a big fan of medical examiner systems, particularly statewide,
22:37
Speaker 1: that are not administered by police or the law enforcement agency.
22:42
Speaker 2: If you have.
22:43
Speaker 1: A a state medical examiner that is administered primarily by
22:50
Speaker 1: the Health Department, it turns out better for everybody. Because
22:55
Speaker 1: you know, for us in my world, and uh, we're
22:59
Speaker 1: not merely interested in homicides. We do as a matter
23:02
Speaker 1: of fact, we handle more natural deaths, so that you know,
23:05
Speaker 1: that feeds directly into the mission of Public Health and
23:08
Speaker 1: state the State Health Department, and we work you know,
23:13
Speaker 1: they work with the police, they have investigators and all that,
23:15
Speaker 1: but their job is different. So in most places, I
23:20
Speaker 1: can't speak specifically, but I would imagine that they might
23:25
Speaker 1: have a separate decomp room, which many facilities I have been,
23:30
Speaker 1: and we kind of break it down like this where
23:32
Speaker 1: you have a clean, clean area and then a decomp area,
23:36
Speaker 1: and even the bodies are stored separately. You don't have
23:39
Speaker 1: decomp bodies most of the time the main cooler with
23:41
Speaker 1: fresh dead and you can do more in that environment.
23:46
Speaker 1: Anthropologists generally has a space in there so that they
23:49
Speaker 1: can do their exams, which are mind blowing that we
23:54
Speaker 1: can talk about another time. But you have that environment
23:59
Speaker 1: there that has to be controlled. And when you go
24:01
Speaker 1: into this thing, everybody that is in this room, Dave,
24:05
Speaker 1: they appreciate the fragility of everything that is contained not
24:10
Speaker 1: just within the freezer but also externally. So kind of
24:14
Speaker 1: the cast of characters you're going to have in there
24:16
Speaker 1: is probably going to be the lead investigator. You're going
24:19
Speaker 1: to have maybe a couple of medical legal death investigators
24:22
Speaker 1: and an autopsy assistant in there, the primary or the
24:27
Speaker 1: medical examiner, the forensic pathologists directing everything, and then there
24:31
Speaker 1: will there's a high probability you're going to have a
24:34
Speaker 1: crim scene tech there as well. And so what will
24:37
Speaker 1: happen is that one of the EMME investigators will take
24:40
Speaker 1: photographs for the medical examiner, but the crimsing investigator will
24:47
Speaker 1: also take photographs, but for their purposes. It's for their reference. Okay,
24:52
Speaker 1: so you've got two sets of photography. Many times with
24:55
Speaker 1: a case that's going on like this, not always the time.
24:58
Speaker 1: Sometimes you'll have people that have this kind of sharing,
25:01
Speaker 1: you know, of of the images back and forth. No,
25:03
Speaker 1: it's on you. You take the photographs today. But you know,
25:06
Speaker 1: the doctors, like cops are not necessarily interested in taking
25:11
Speaker 1: pictures of organs or the detailed anatomy. And there is
25:16
Speaker 1: a specific practice called medical photography that you get really
25:20
Speaker 1: good at because you have to understand anatomy. And I'm
25:23
Speaker 1: not I'm not sliding uh police police photographers, but in
25:29
Speaker 1: our world, in the medical legal world, you need a
25:31
Speaker 1: specific skill set in order to appreciate what the physician
25:36
Speaker 1: is talking about, Like if he says or she says,
25:39
Speaker 1: I want police take a photograph of the right greater
25:42
Speaker 1: horn of the highwaid bone. Wow, the crumbsing detective is
25:46
Speaker 1: not necessarily going to know what they're talking about. Yeah, yeah,
25:50
Speaker 1: they're just not going to do it now. The you know,
25:52
Speaker 1: I've seen you know, uh, forends of pathologists that will
25:56
Speaker 1: give almost a primal grunt and point. I used to
25:59
Speaker 1: work with with one forensic pathologist in the past that
26:02
Speaker 1: would use his knife to point at everybody. It carry
26:05
Speaker 1: a huge butsher knife and it was always covered in
26:07
Speaker 1: blood and he would he had this kind of primal
26:09
Speaker 1: grunting thing that he would go and he had very
26:13
Speaker 1: interesting personality to say at the least, but that's how he
26:15
Speaker 1: would direct you. But if you have somebody that's familiar
26:18
Speaker 1: with human anatomy and all of those anatomical points or
26:23
Speaker 1: landmarks that we're looking for not just externally but internally
26:26
Speaker 1: when the body is open. So that's kind of the
26:30
Speaker 1: cast characters here. And you don't know what type of
26:33
Speaker 1: evidence is going to be recovered. And let's just say
26:36
Speaker 1: because at this point when you open up, when you
26:40
Speaker 1: open up this this freezer, you don't know what the
26:44
Speaker 1: cause of death is you have no idea. That's why
26:49
Speaker 1: you're doing the autopsy. So when you open this up,
26:54
Speaker 1: you could find things like ballistic evidence in there, or
26:58
Speaker 1: if there is a projectile inside of the body. I've
27:01
Speaker 1: seen I've seen medical examiners do two things. I've seen
27:04
Speaker 1: them actually, in the case of a projectile, remove it
27:08
Speaker 1: and they take a diamond tipped a diamond tipped pen
27:15
Speaker 1: and yes, that's what I said. And they go to
27:18
Speaker 1: the base of a projectile that's removed and they will
27:20
Speaker 1: actually initially on the bottom and that indicates that I'm
27:25
Speaker 1: the one that removed it, and they'll include that in there.
27:28
Speaker 1: And then I've seen them take other bits of evidence,
27:30
Speaker 1: including ballistic evidence, and turn it over directly to a
27:34
Speaker 1: detective or to a crime scene technician that's present at
27:37
Speaker 1: the autopsy. It's a weird kind of orchestration that has
27:42
Speaker 1: to go on. And with this particular case cases, this
27:47
Speaker 1: is dense material dave. Scientifically, from a forensics perspective, this
27:52
Speaker 1: is about as complex as things can get because you're
27:57
Speaker 1: introducing something into the environment that is not it's an
28:02
Speaker 1: unknown relative to the container itself. How are you going
28:05
Speaker 1: to manage this and how are you going to manage
28:08
Speaker 1: it so you don't screw it up, Because if you
28:11
Speaker 1: screw it up with really doing the big bold opening
28:15
Speaker 1: of the thing, you can eradicate evidence because.
28:19
Speaker 3: You only get one shotages you can and redo it.
28:21
Speaker 1: You're absolutely no do overs, no mulligans. If you're a golfer,
28:24
Speaker 1: you don't get to do it over because once it's gone,
28:26
Speaker 1: it's gone. If there is even a hair, you know,
28:29
Speaker 1: keep in mind with any kind of freezer refrigerator, uh,
28:32
Speaker 1: there's a big kind of rubber plastic foam gasket.
28:36
Speaker 2: Right.
28:37
Speaker 1: Well, okay, so let's pretend that somebody is has killed
28:44
Speaker 1: someone and they want to put them into this. We've
28:47
Speaker 1: already stated how deep this thing is, all right, how
28:51
Speaker 1: deep this this freezer is. Well, you're leaning over the side.
28:54
Speaker 1: Guess what you're coming in contact with your clothing. You're
28:58
Speaker 1: coming in contact with the gasket that goes around there.
29:01
Speaker 1: Guess what you can pick up on that gasket. Well,
29:05
Speaker 1: any kind of fiber, evidence, hair, anything, you're shedding skin
29:09
Speaker 1: that could be the perpetrator or at least the person
29:12
Speaker 1: that was in concert with the perpetrator that is placing
29:17
Speaker 1: that body down into that. So you have to even
29:20
Speaker 1: be careful in that area because that freezer. First off,
29:24
Speaker 1: the freezer is unique, the brand, it's going to have
29:27
Speaker 1: a serial number. It's probably in most of those things
29:30
Speaker 1: have got like a you know what I'm talking about.
29:32
Speaker 1: It's got that kind of aluminum tag thing that's bolted
29:36
Speaker 1: what it is, Yeah, and where it was manufactured even
29:39
Speaker 1: and it probably in those little coating numbers they have.
29:42
Speaker 1: I hope that somebody will correct me if I'm wrong,
29:44
Speaker 1: but in those little they probably had the batch that
29:47
Speaker 1: the thing came off the line with it. You know,
29:50
Speaker 1: you can look at that number and go back to
29:51
Speaker 1: the factory, frigid are or whoever it is, and say, hey,
29:55
Speaker 1: I've got this number. When did the thin come off
29:57
Speaker 1: the line? Where did it go to when it came
29:59
Speaker 1: off line? When to big box store? A you go
30:02
Speaker 1: to them and say, hey, I've got this. You receive dispatch?
30:06
Speaker 1: Do you know who bought this?
30:07
Speaker 2: Well?
30:07
Speaker 3: Our record served.
30:08
Speaker 1: I don't go back that far because I have to think.
30:12
Speaker 1: My big question is is this freezer viable? Does it
30:14
Speaker 1: still work or is it just something that they had
30:17
Speaker 1: laying out back. Well, if it was laying out back,
30:19
Speaker 1: freezer's not something you just walk by and ignore. Just
30:22
Speaker 1: imagine the power of some witness that might have been
30:25
Speaker 1: peripheral to the peripheral to these people. Prosecution puts them
30:29
Speaker 1: on the on the stand and said, mister Smith, have
30:32
Speaker 1: you ever seen a freezer similar to the one pictured
30:36
Speaker 1: here in the image that you're taking a look at
30:39
Speaker 1: in the past when you've come over for picnics or whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
30:43
Speaker 1: I've I've seen one like that. It was out back
30:45
Speaker 1: of the bar and they'd had it for years, and
30:47
Speaker 1: I never could understand what they were keeping that thing.
30:49
Speaker 2: For, keeping it for a makeshift cast.
30:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, you just you never know. So I hope I'm
30:55
Speaker 1: painting an effective picture here as to how critical all
30:59
Speaker 1: of this is. And I'm so glad it thrills me
31:02
Speaker 1: to my core that you said that you get one
31:05
Speaker 1: shot at it, Dave. You know, because once you crack
31:09
Speaker 1: this thing open, you're bearing witness to something that the
31:11
Speaker 1: line share of people in their entire life, they live
31:13
Speaker 1: five lifetimes, they're not going to see anything like what
31:17
Speaker 1: was revealed when that door was open the day. Okay,
31:34
Speaker 1: I want all of our friends to understand what I'm
31:38
Speaker 1: about to do here, because we don't get cases like
31:42
Speaker 1: this most of the time. Just this past week I
31:47
Speaker 1: came into possession of the autopsy report from Kelly, and
31:54
Speaker 1: I kind of want to break this down, break it
31:57
Speaker 1: down for those that might be curious, and I'll kind
31:59
Speaker 1: of we'll go through the highlights of it and talk
32:03
Speaker 1: about it. With this proviso, there is a high probability
32:07
Speaker 1: that within the next couple of weeks of this recording,
32:11
Speaker 1: we're going to uh receive the second autopsy on Miss Butler,
32:17
Speaker 1: will receive that autopsy report. It's at that point in
32:20
Speaker 1: time we'll revisit and you know, kind of go through
32:24
Speaker 1: that autopsy as well, because Dave, the physical findings you
32:28
Speaker 1: know that you have described here, Remember how we've talked
32:31
Speaker 1: about before, the dead do in fact have a tail
32:34
Speaker 1: to tell, and it can be told in many ways.
32:37
Speaker 1: I think probably the first thing that you're going to
32:40
Speaker 1: look at when you have this kind of miniature and
32:42
Speaker 1: I want to call it, this miniature crime scene that.
32:44
Speaker 2: Literally literally is delivered.
32:49
Speaker 1: To to the medical examiner's office, when your initial viewing
32:54
Speaker 1: of this of the interior of the scene, this this
32:57
Speaker 1: is like viewing two bodies laying on the floor in
33:00
Speaker 1: a standalone home that have been executed but yet that
33:05
Speaker 1: dynamic is now brought into the autopsy suite. And so
33:08
Speaker 1: when we crack that door open and we look within
33:11
Speaker 1: this thing, the first thing I'm going to try to
33:15
Speaker 1: piece together here is, well, what position are they in?
33:19
Speaker 1: I think that that's probably one of the biggest tells.
33:21
Speaker 2: Dave.
33:22
Speaker 3: All Right, So when they open it up, they look
33:25
Speaker 3: in and they see there's dirt, there's fluid, there's straw,
33:31
Speaker 3: and there are two bodies, and they can tell right
33:37
Speaker 3: off that Veronica Butler is on top of Jilly and Kelly.
33:40
Speaker 3: Jilly and Kelly have been put in first, Veronica Butler
33:44
Speaker 3: put on top of her. Does that tell you, as
33:47
Speaker 3: an investigator anything?
33:51
Speaker 1: Well, here's the thing, and you can kind of.
33:54
Speaker 2: Extrapolate some thoughts about this. I believe.
34:01
Speaker 1: You could say that they were killed roughly at the
34:05
Speaker 1: same time and then essentially discarded into this container. Okay,
34:14
Speaker 1: I think probably one of the more chilling views of this,
34:20
Speaker 1: because I still I don't know if there's any way
34:22
Speaker 1: you could ever convince me that miss Kelly was the
34:26
Speaker 1: target here, the primary target. Some people could perhaps say
34:34
Speaker 1: that miss Kelly did die first, and because there's so
34:38
Speaker 1: much hatred and anger directed at the target, who is
34:45
Speaker 1: Veronica Butler? You really wonder and I'm sure that this
34:50
Speaker 1: is something that is it has been explored and is
34:53
Speaker 1: continuing to be explored. I wonder if missus Butler, in
34:59
Speaker 1: order to terrify her in some way, if she was
35:03
Speaker 1: forced to watch miss Kelly die. Miss Kelly died pretty quickly,
35:08
Speaker 1: and I can go into that here shortly and then
35:10
Speaker 1: following that Miss Butler is killed and her body is placed,
35:16
Speaker 1: and I think placed is kind of a misstatement there.
35:21
Speaker 1: I'm just going to say, tossed a side like rubbish
35:25
Speaker 1: into this container. I think my big question is sequencing.
35:29
Speaker 1: I don't know that we will ever be able to
35:33
Speaker 1: address the specific sequence unless one of this, you know,
35:37
Speaker 1: this kind of twisted confederacy rolls over on somebody else
35:42
Speaker 1: that begins to you know, as they say, sing like
35:44
Speaker 1: a bird, because I can tell you, I can tell
35:46
Speaker 1: you that, well, I'll tell you this though. This thing's
35:48
Speaker 1: going to be tried in Oklahoma, and Bubba Oklahoma's got
35:53
Speaker 1: death penalty and they are not shy about using it.
35:56
Speaker 3: So they don't have to negotiate anything. They've already got.
36:00
Speaker 3: They already have enough evidence, Joe for all of the
36:03
Speaker 3: involvement of these people, the pre planning that went into it,
36:06
Speaker 3: the first aborted attempt to drop an anvil on Veronica
36:09
Speaker 3: Butler's car while she's driving. Now you've got them there
36:12
Speaker 3: together with Jillian Kelly, wrong place, wrong time, being a
36:16
Speaker 3: nice woman. She ends up dead in a freezer. Now
36:19
Speaker 3: they got to remove Veronica to get to Jillian Kelly.
36:22
Speaker 3: They have to take Veronica Butler's body out of the freezer.
36:26
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, what do you do to do that? Because
36:30
Speaker 2: they get in there for two weeks? Man, Yeah, you
36:31
Speaker 2: get a big group of people.
36:32
Speaker 1: First off, you're going to document the bodies thoroughly inside.
36:35
Speaker 1: I'm talking about not just the measurements of the body,
36:39
Speaker 1: but the measurements of the interior. And this is kind
36:42
Speaker 1: of interesting. I was giving us a think if you've
36:46
Speaker 1: got any kind of like dynamic blood deposition that's inside
36:50
Speaker 1: of that.
36:51
Speaker 2: Okay, what do you mean by that?
36:52
Speaker 1: Well, remember we got a broken hammer, right, Yeah, and
36:56
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that. I think you don't know, you've
37:00
Speaker 1: got a lot of commingle trauma here. I think with
37:06
Speaker 1: miss Kelly, I don't know if the hammer's been used
37:10
Speaker 1: on her as a means to kill her. It appears,
37:14
Speaker 1: based upon what I'm seeing, that a sharp edged instrument
37:19
Speaker 1: was used. They don't talk about lacerations, and as we've
37:21
Speaker 1: talked about previously on bodybags, lacerations are generated by blunt
37:26
Speaker 1: force trauma. And so that is the skin being struck
37:31
Speaker 1: with something and baseball, bat ball, pen hammer, claw hammer,
37:36
Speaker 1: a lamp, I don't you know, whatever it might be.
37:39
Speaker 1: The skin literally tears and that creates a lacerational laceration.
37:44
Speaker 1: Is not, and let me repeat, is not a cut.
37:48
Speaker 1: That's not what they're saying about. Miss Kelly. Miss Kelly
37:52
Speaker 1: has and hold on to your hat here, Dave. Miss
37:56
Speaker 1: Kelly alone and again keeping him on. She's not who
38:00
Speaker 1: we would believe to be the primary target day she
38:03
Speaker 1: stabbed or cut. She has sixteen sharp forse injuries sixteen. Okay,
38:12
Speaker 1: she's not the primary and she's not the primary. So
38:16
Speaker 1: I'm very interested to see what Miss Butler's autopsy will reveal,
38:22
Speaker 1: because you know they're going to they would have been
38:24
Speaker 1: doing a dual assessment at this point in time. My
38:28
Speaker 1: suspicion is is that though we have Miss Kelly's autopsy
38:32
Speaker 1: report released first, there's a high probability that they did
38:38
Speaker 1: Miss Butler's autopsy. Secondly, I don't know why it would
38:43
Speaker 1: take longer to get her autopsy out to the public
38:48
Speaker 1: unless maybe there is more trauma with her body that
38:54
Speaker 1: required further assessment. I'm still not completely ignored wearing the
39:00
Speaker 1: hammer you know that was found, because I don't know
39:03
Speaker 1: what Miss Butler's injuries are at this time when I
39:08
Speaker 1: see what they did. Though to Miss Kelly, nothing and
39:13
Speaker 1: I mean nothing is off the table. And just so
39:17
Speaker 1: let me break this down further relative to the injuries.
39:19
Speaker 1: So with Miss Kelly, we're talking about nine stab wounds.
39:26
Speaker 1: That means these are penetrating wounds where the knife is
39:29
Speaker 1: being driven in to an individual stabbing. Okay, then we
39:33
Speaker 1: have seven incized wounds. So just think about cutting an object.
39:40
Speaker 1: If you've got vegetables, like they're on cutting board, Okay,
39:45
Speaker 1: you can say they're being chopped, but they're actually being
39:47
Speaker 1: incized or sliced. Well, in sized injuries are slices, Okay.
39:53
Speaker 1: So the general the rule of thumb here is that
39:58
Speaker 1: stab wounds are are deeper but more narrow, and in
40:03
Speaker 1: sized wounds are longer and shallow. Okay. Now, I've seen
40:08
Speaker 1: in sized ones where they're really really deep, but those
40:12
Speaker 1: are outliers, okay, for for our purposes. And on top
40:16
Speaker 1: of this, she's got two more insized wounds that are
40:22
Speaker 1: that are noted that well, they're in the they're in
40:27
Speaker 1: the description of the but they're they're very distinctive. And David,
40:30
Speaker 1: this is a big tail here. Miss Kelly actually has
40:37
Speaker 1: actually has defensive wounds on her hand. Oh wow, where
40:42
Speaker 1: she's grabbed the blade. She's actually grabbed the blade and
40:45
Speaker 1: the blade has been drug through her finger and it's
40:48
Speaker 1: on both hands. I think one of the one of
40:51
Speaker 1: the insized injuries is the left index finger, okay, and
40:55
Speaker 1: then the one on the right hand is actually the
40:58
Speaker 1: right thumb. These are not stab wounds to the hands.
41:02
Speaker 1: This is indicative of her trying to defend herself and
41:07
Speaker 1: placing her hands up in a defensive posture, almost like
41:09
Speaker 1: a boxer, and as the knife is coming, you grab
41:14
Speaker 1: it and then the knife is withdrawn and it cuts
41:16
Speaker 1: that surface. Now, her injuries primarily are lateral and posterior lateral,
41:23
Speaker 1: which means on the side and then to the rear.
41:25
Speaker 1: And Dave, there's nothing other than the hands. The hands
41:29
Speaker 1: are separate. There's nothing on her injury.
41:33
Speaker 2: Wise where.
41:36
Speaker 1: These insized injuries extend below the level of the shoulder blades.
41:42
Speaker 1: So this is all up top. Well, what does that
41:44
Speaker 1: tell me? That tells me that whoever did this was
41:51
Speaker 1: in close proximity to her, And he said, Morgan, it's
41:53
Speaker 1: kind of obvious. No, it's not, because you can have
41:56
Speaker 1: somebody that's running away and being stabbed, and they might
41:58
Speaker 1: random stab These things are concentrated day and they're really
42:02
Speaker 1: concentrated heavily on the neck.
42:05
Speaker 3: Okay, they were kill shots. They were trying to kill.
42:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're they're going right, They're going right for the spine.
42:12
Speaker 1: And and I'm not going to say luckily here, I'm
42:16
Speaker 1: going to say, how can I phrase this mercifully? I
42:21
Speaker 1: hope her her spinal cord is essentially severed. Where if
42:30
Speaker 1: if you'll feel the back of your head, okay, find
42:34
Speaker 1: that kind of protuberant area that's on the back of
42:37
Speaker 1: your skull, that bump, that huge bump that's actually referred
42:41
Speaker 1: to as the occipital protuberance or the ox a. Put
42:45
Speaker 1: it's part of the brain, it's part of the skull bone.
42:48
Speaker 1: Well that houses right there, that houses where our cerebellum is,
42:54
Speaker 1: which is separate from the cerebrum, the cerebellum. Your brain
42:58
Speaker 1: stem passes through there. That's literally where your spinal cord begins.
43:02
Speaker 1: Dave her her spinal cord probably at about the C one,
43:07
Speaker 1: which is referred to as the atlas. The atlas is
43:10
Speaker 1: the first vertebral body to call it atlas, because it's
43:13
Speaker 1: like Atlas holding up the world. Her spinal cord is
43:17
Speaker 1: cut right there, and the doctor has actually rendered an
43:20
Speaker 1: opinion here that this is a non viable insult that
43:24
Speaker 1: she has sustained. Uh mean, yeah, it's incompatible what the
43:30
Speaker 1: term they'd love to use, is incompatible with life because
43:34
Speaker 1: you're you're now going into at that level, that that
43:37
Speaker 1: cervical level, you're going in affecting the autonomic nervous system.
43:41
Speaker 1: What does that mean, Well, your ability to breathe, your heart,
43:45
Speaker 1: to function, uh, to sense those sorts of things. We
43:49
Speaker 1: can only hope that that that was the case, uh
43:55
Speaker 1: for you know, for for miss miss Kelly, and you know,
44:00
Speaker 1: under these circumstances. I think that when you know, you
44:06
Speaker 1: begin to do an assessment like this, and she they
44:09
Speaker 1: would have done this with with both of these bodies. Okay,
44:13
Speaker 1: when her body is removed from this freezer, immediate. You can't.
44:17
Speaker 1: You could, but you're not going to be very effective
44:21
Speaker 1: her body. When her body is removed, the first thing
44:24
Speaker 1: you're gonna do is X ray the body. People think
44:27
Speaker 1: about bullets many times, leaving that kind of lead storm,
44:32
Speaker 1: you know, the little particular bits of lead. Dave, did
44:34
Speaker 1: you know that when you stab somebody, particularly if you're
44:39
Speaker 1: striking bone over and over again, the blade will actually
44:41
Speaker 1: shere a bit. And I've recovered I've actually recovered the
44:46
Speaker 1: tips of blades buried in vertebral bodies where they've been
44:49
Speaker 1: it's been kind of snapped off. And so you would
44:54
Speaker 1: X ray that, And how powerful is that image? You know?
44:57
Speaker 1: And when you put up blood the images from an
45:00
Speaker 1: autopsy report, sometimes they'll say no, no, no, no, no,
45:05
Speaker 1: can't use those, they're too prejudicial. You use an image
45:10
Speaker 1: of an X ray and you show, well, here's a
45:12
Speaker 1: bit of steel or it's radio opaque. Rather that's showing up.
45:18
Speaker 1: This is tied back to a knife. This gives you
45:21
Speaker 1: an idea of placement, and you're not having to look
45:24
Speaker 1: through gore. You're just looking at standard X ray, you know,
45:26
Speaker 1: like you would get for pneumonia or head injury or
45:29
Speaker 1: neck injury or broken arm. It's the same thing. So
45:32
Speaker 1: there's no gore involved with it, and it's very it's very,
45:36
Speaker 1: very powerful, so you have to be very careful. The
45:40
Speaker 1: only way though, I think that one of the big
45:43
Speaker 1: questions here is when you read an autopsy report, you're
45:50
Speaker 1: thinking that perhaps perhaps you can sequence these injuries. It's
46:01
Speaker 1: really really hard to sequence, you know, sequence an injury.
46:05
Speaker 1: And what I mean by that is the order in
46:07
Speaker 1: which these these insults or you know, we're struck, you know.
46:16
Speaker 1: And what they'll do when you get when you get
46:20
Speaker 1: a knife wound like this, they'll assign a random number.
46:27
Speaker 1: And that random number that you see is not indicative
46:30
Speaker 1: of the order in which it occurred. It's merely there
46:34
Speaker 1: as a guardrail to say, I've identified this one, and
46:38
Speaker 1: this is what we're calling it number one. And like,
46:41
Speaker 1: for instance, the first one that she sustained that they're
46:46
Speaker 1: calling wound number one is a horizontal in sized wound
46:49
Speaker 1: to the posterior lower head, which means, if you again
46:53
Speaker 1: put your hand back here below the occy put David
46:59
Speaker 1: knife was drug over the surface of her scalp right there, okay,
47:03
Speaker 1: and it's literally about ten centimeters below the top of
47:10
Speaker 1: the head, you know, which I think translates to roughly,
47:13
Speaker 1: I want to say, about three inches, you know, down
47:15
Speaker 1: the back of her head. So and it's it's that's
47:19
Speaker 1: the distance below and it's about seven seven centimeters in length.
47:25
Speaker 1: It's three centimeters deep.
47:26
Speaker 2: This is this is a deep.
47:28
Speaker 1: Wound, Okay, that's passing through not just the hair and
47:33
Speaker 1: skin and sub continuous fat, it's going all the way
47:36
Speaker 1: through that little layer of muscle, and also striking you know,
47:41
Speaker 1: striking the underlying bone. And one of the interesting things
47:47
Speaker 1: they found out about this day, just this wound alone.
47:49
Speaker 1: This is how complex this is. Just this wound alone
47:54
Speaker 1: generated three separate knife markings on the surface of the bone. Dave, Okay,
47:59
Speaker 1: that's how ferocious this was. And they're talking about how
48:01
Speaker 1: the lower oxy put or the occipital protuberance was actually chipped.
48:07
Speaker 1: Do you realize how hard it is to chip a bone.
48:10
Speaker 1: It's so it requires a tremendous amount of power and
48:17
Speaker 1: directed force. So this goes to the idea that I
48:21
Speaker 1: think she would have been attacked while laying, probably in
48:25
Speaker 1: a prone position, so she's on her belly. They talked
48:29
Speaker 1: about how her clothes are soiled well, if you've got
48:33
Speaker 1: somebody and I had quoted, I'd use this term earlier
48:36
Speaker 1: with you. I think in the Bible there's a couple
48:39
Speaker 1: of times where they say the people fell upon an individual,
48:42
Speaker 1: and when they fall upon an injury, that means that's
48:45
Speaker 1: an attack. Okay, so they fell upon this poor woman.
48:49
Speaker 1: I don't know if they've got multiple people holding her down,
48:53
Speaker 1: but the individual would have been exerting their downward weight
48:56
Speaker 1: on her back. Hence, that explains why you don't have
48:59
Speaker 1: injuries that are going any further south than the shoulder blades,
49:03
Speaker 1: because they're not going to stab themselves. Okay, they're going
49:05
Speaker 1: to stab up okay or not, they're.
49:07
Speaker 2: Going to be mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that makes sense.
49:10
Speaker 3: Now I couldn't figure that out when I was reading
49:12
Speaker 3: over this before we started taping. I'm going through this
49:14
Speaker 3: going what in the world. I couldn't figure that out.
49:16
Speaker 1: So it's a tight cluster that's in here, and you know,
49:19
Speaker 1: we're talking about multiple injuries, and it looks like some
49:22
Speaker 1: of these might be misstrikes. Like if you're if you're
49:26
Speaker 1: trying to drive the knife down, Let's say you're focused
49:30
Speaker 1: on on the on the spinal column itself and you
49:35
Speaker 1: have or you know, in their mind the brain. Okay,
49:38
Speaker 1: but you're striking the spinal column. This is not like
49:44
Speaker 1: some spy movie where some assassin walks up behind somebody
49:48
Speaker 1: and takes an ice pick or a knife and just
49:51
Speaker 1: kind of pushes it up through the bottom. You know
49:53
Speaker 1: that classic scene from Goodfellas in the back seat with
49:56
Speaker 1: the ice pick. That's a concentrated, specific area. This is
49:59
Speaker 1: a frenzied event, Dave, again, I think you can translate
50:04
Speaker 1: that into a lot of anger, you know, And why
50:06
Speaker 1: would this precious woman have this much anger directed at
50:10
Speaker 1: her when she's you know, she's she's this you know,
50:14
Speaker 1: this angel on earth that's trying to help, that's trying
50:18
Speaker 1: to help help miss Butler along the way. So you know,
50:22
Speaker 1: we've got we've got sixteen sharp force injuries that run,
50:29
Speaker 1: you know, essentially from north to south. These things are
50:34
Speaker 1: highly complex. They're going through multiple, multiple areas of interest.
50:41
Speaker 1: Many of these things do in fact come along with hemorrhage.
50:45
Speaker 1: And as we've discussed in the past, you know, if
50:48
Speaker 1: you have an injury and there's indwelling in dwelling hemorrhage
50:53
Speaker 1: associated with it, then we know, we know that the
50:57
Speaker 1: individual's heart is still beating, okay, that the blood is
51:01
Speaker 1: coursing through their veins, and because that it's a trauma response.
51:06
Speaker 1: When you clip a vessel, even a capillary like that,
51:08
Speaker 1: a capillary bed, you're going to bleed out into that area.
51:11
Speaker 1: So the doctor is actually seen with many of these,
51:15
Speaker 1: is actually seeing presentation of hemorrhage along the way. And
51:21
Speaker 1: one of the more ghastly issues with this is that
51:26
Speaker 1: I hate to even really say this, but Dave, four
51:32
Speaker 1: of her cervical vertebras are involved in this attack. You've
51:37
Speaker 1: got C two, C three, C four, C five. Okay,
51:43
Speaker 1: you've got the bony. If you've ever seen a spinal
51:46
Speaker 1: p hower of vertebral process, it's got these little horns
51:50
Speaker 1: that stick off of it. They've in a couple of
51:53
Speaker 1: spots those horns have been broken off. Just featured that
51:57
Speaker 1: just for a second.
51:59
Speaker 2: So this attack is absolutely vicious aget and.
52:05
Speaker 1: She's not even the intended target, David. That's I think
52:08
Speaker 1: that that's my my big, my big.
52:13
Speaker 2: Takeaway with this.
52:15
Speaker 1: She's also got you know, these kind of like she's
52:19
Speaker 1: got a superficial in sized wound that's on the top
52:22
Speaker 1: of left shoulder, there's there's no associated hemorrhage with that wound.
52:26
Speaker 1: That's a post hornum post mortem injury. But that's on
52:31
Speaker 1: the top. And then if you if you go down
52:34
Speaker 1: slightly on the posterior left shoulder, so we're talking about
52:38
Speaker 1: the left. If you take your left hand, put it
52:40
Speaker 1: on top of your shoulder, that's the top of your
52:42
Speaker 1: left left shoulder. If you go behind its slightly dropped
52:45
Speaker 1: down just below that area. Uh, you've got another shoulder
52:53
Speaker 1: injury and the posterior left shoulder where there is hemorrhage.
52:57
Speaker 1: So they've been they've they spent quite a bit of
53:03
Speaker 1: time driving this knife both into her body, uh, slicing
53:10
Speaker 1: her body, and you know, as a you know, kind
53:14
Speaker 1: of an added bit here meeting her parry, which is
53:19
Speaker 1: you know, when you a sword term, you know, if
53:21
Speaker 1: you're going to parry, it's like a defensive moon move.
53:25
Speaker 1: She's pairying with her hands, so they've sliced her hands
53:28
Speaker 1: as well, defensively on her parties defensively. So you've got
53:31
Speaker 1: all of these injuries that are specifically you know, tied
53:36
Speaker 1: tied back, you know, to to this poor woman and
53:40
Speaker 1: what led to her death. I think, you know, I'm hoping,
53:45
Speaker 1: I'm hoping against hope, Dave, that she did not experience
53:51
Speaker 1: the level of pain that could potentially be associated with
53:54
Speaker 1: all of these insults to her body. I'm hoping against
53:57
Speaker 1: hope that that strike that we talked about that was
54:02
Speaker 1: like C one C two region there, that it was
54:05
Speaker 1: a fatal blow and that she didn't sense anything. But
54:10
Speaker 1: either way that you look at this case, the level
54:15
Speaker 1: of brutality that is involved in this thing, you find
54:20
Speaker 1: it very difficult to plumb the depths of it because
54:23
Speaker 1: it is so very extensive. We're going to wait and
54:27
Speaker 1: see what the autopsy of Veronica Butler reveals, but I
54:33
Speaker 1: can tell you this, whatever happened out there in that
54:37
Speaker 1: desolate area, it's the stuff of nightmares and things that
54:43
Speaker 1: we cannot even begin to fathom. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan,
54:50
Speaker 1: and this is Bodybots.