Latest / Beheaded / Priest, Proctor, Prisoner | Bishop John Fisher

Transcript

Priest, Proctor, Prisoner | Bishop John Fisher · Beheaded

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is season seven, episode six.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: I'm Megan Moore.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm Elizabeth Black.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: Do I smell like garlic?
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: I think the whole house smells like garlic.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: You made the most garlicky.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: Delicious.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: And garlicky.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_00: And garlicky.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Garlic bread.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, Robbie made that.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 0:25
  SPEAKER_02: He's oh, I have to go compliment him.
• 0:27
  SPEAKER_00: I thought it was you.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: No, I made, I made, okay, I made the rest.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_00: Like the charcuterie ward.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: That was also great.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: The salad.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: The salad was fantastic.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I did make a crock pot stew in honor of our episode tonight, since it takes place in England.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: So I I am limited to like leopard's pie.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good name for it.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: Shepherd's pie.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking at your glass, which is leopard print.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um shepherd's pie or stew.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: I make the same boring things every time we do an English episode.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I hope you like I like the garlic bread.
• 0:57
  SPEAKER_02: But I as I'm sitting near you and we were like mic checking and doing audio testing, I just realized like, oh, I should grab a bit.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't smell your garlic.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_02: Do you smell I don't smell you?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe I think it's just the house.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: The house smells like that.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_02: On my clothes, like you'll smell it tomorrow.
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_02: So good.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: I hope you enjoyed it.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, we had a funny mic check because sometimes I feel so like I feel like technology works against me.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I don't know if others feel this way.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_02: I have never felt older than my 36 years than in that moment where I see we're we're using um Riverside for our our podcasting right now.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_02: And uh so it's like live stream on, and I legit thought that we were the whole time like people were watching us live.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like, oh no, oh no.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_02: I've never sorry.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if I seem giggly, which I'm always giggly, I apologize.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_02: We were just laughing really hard just now, thinking that we were live streaming, but we weren't.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: And what was the topic of our live stream?
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um that's even more embarrassing.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good one.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_02: We were discussing um which Disney character would be which tutor character, like tutor historical figure, for example.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_02: Like I think we landed on like Belle would make a good Ambeyn.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: And well, it all started with we were talking about Thomas Boleyn, Am Boleyn's father, and we were like, God, the actor in the Showtime Tutors looks exactly like Lord Flo Frollo in track of Notre Dame.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_00: So we both agreed on that.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And then we started singing the song for a while, like follow you, and then you know, snowballs.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_00: It gets out of control fast.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then we started assigning princesses to different characters in Tutorcore.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_00: It got real real.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: Who would play Henry?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: King Henry, the eighth.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_00: I thank you.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: Ah, Disney character.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: I'm thinking, not personality-wise, but looks-wise, I'm thinking the dad from Princess and the Frog, who John Goodman, that John Goodman plays.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, Lottie's dad.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I was like, Tiana's dad?
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_02: Whoa.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_00: Not the hot dead one.
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: The fat rich one.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: Gotcha.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I was also thinking, oh gosh.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: The dad from Brave.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: He's a little Scottish.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, if we're not, if we're just going off of looks.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because he's a nice guy.
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's actually a good one.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: Personality, he's like that French mole character in Atlantis.
• 3:32
  SPEAKER_02: Merida could be Elizabeth I with the red hair.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think her hair was so frizzy, but maybe.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth I was probably a bit more put together.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_02: I think the evil queen would make a great Margaret Beaufort.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: So Evil Queen from Snow White.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: From Snow White.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's exactly what's the other one.
• 3:51
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, sometimes they just throw evil queen around generally.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a common, yeah.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: An evil queen.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like Prince Charming.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: Like the one who was like capitalized, like the evil queen.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_03: That's her name.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: R.I.P., she could they got rid of her at Disneyland.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_00: Did you know that?
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: Oh yeah, I heard about that.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, really sad.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:06
  SPEAKER_00: I heard it was uh her leaving, not them.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know the details.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_02: There's a whole like controversy.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, you can go down a whole rabbit hole on it online about because she had um a social media account.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and she was really cool because she was like rude to people.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was a great job.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: In your face.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Now she has to go work at one of those restaurants where you can be rude to people.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: Like Dick's Last Resort.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: We saw one of those.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: So I just got back from Alabama.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: I did a marathon down there, and we saw one of those, the Dick's Last Resort.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: And Robbie was like, What the hell is that place?
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, You don't know that place?
• 4:36
  SPEAKER_00: I was like, you go there and they insult you.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, What?
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_02: And he said It's an American thing.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_00: I've never actually been there.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: I know they have.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I have.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: You have?
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_02: What'd they say about you?
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_02: I went with my father when I was like, I don't know, maybe 25 years old.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I hadn't seen my dad in a little bit.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_02: And we happened to be in Vegas at the same time when it was my husband, myself, and my dad.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_02: So then the Excalibur Hotel.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_02: He was like, let's go meet up for dinner.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, Vegas is the land of restaurants.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_02: Anything, like any restaurant you want is in Vegas.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: And my dad goes, let's meet at Dick's Last Resort.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_02: I can't believe you suggested.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_02: All places.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, this is the kind of place like SNL makes fun of it because what for whatever reason people want to be ridiculed and made fun of by their servers.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_02: And you have to wear this hat that they write something stupid on it.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_02: And if you take off the hat, they make it even worse for you.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Like they really traumatize you by embarrassing, like embarrassing you in front of everyone.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: And it sounds awful.
• 5:41
  SPEAKER_02: It really is awful.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: And so here I am trying to have a conversation with my father.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: Haven't seen him in a while.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm like 25 and I'm wearing a hat that says, I chipped my tooth on my vibrator.
• 5:53
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my God.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it's in front of my father.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_02: And I tried to take it off, and they just like don't allow that.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_02: So they just, yeah, they they like they get mad at you for asking for things like like they're supposed to be rude to you and then obviously insult you with the hat.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: I don't understand why.
• 6:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's like if you ask for, oh, I'm so sorry, like my food isn't correct, they'll like go off on you.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: Like, oh, oh, what, you're picky now?
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: And you think like you're too good for this?
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: So that's funny.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, now that you say that, we were in line for ice cream right next to Dick's Last Resort, and the girl in front of us was like a young girl, like high school probably.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_00: And her hat said, gave the whole team mono.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And I was like, I was like, oh, that's kind of like funny, you know.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: Robbie's like, it should say chlamydia.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like gross.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's nasty.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, she's a little girl.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: She's like 16.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_03: How sad.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_02: That's gross.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we got weird things here in America.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it was weird.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_02: But Alabama, what do you think?
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_02: Alabama's kind of weird.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_02: Alabama, Arkansas.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I went to Gulf Shores, right?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's where the marathon was.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: Beautiful, actually.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: Like, we didn't go deep into Alabama.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_00: We were on the shore, which I feel like is not a part of Alabama.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: I shouldn't shit talk Alabama.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know anything about Alabama.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: I've never been, so I can't say anything.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but beautiful, beautiful place on the Gulf Shore.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the marathon was called the Big Beach Marathon.
• 7:17
  SPEAKER_00: So you mostly go surprisingly not on the beach.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's like this state park.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: Oh.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's very swampy looking and foresty looking.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's literally signs that were like, don't feed the gators.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna ask if you saw any.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big thing.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't, but I was a little scared.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then so uh we're we're taping this right after the crazy week of like storms that hit the US.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: So while the all the South was experiencing like, what was it, Arctic freeze or whatever they called it?
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like Alabama didn't get hit super hard, at least super down south.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: But there was this torrential downpour that hit like literally at mile 25.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I have a mile left to run, and Robbie's texting me.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, yo, I think the weather's gonna break, like it looks very scary.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_00: And all of a sudden I just got pelleted with water.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like fully like it hurt so bad.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: It was just coming down so hard, and I was drenched, and literally it was so windy that porter potties were being knocked over.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_02: Thank God this was the last mile.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_02: So it's like, what if this was in the middle of it?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or yeah, I mean, anyone slower than me definitely got hit with it hard.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_02: Because you're fast.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, can we just say you won a third place medal at this marathon?
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So I would say that's pretty fast.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's in my age group, first of all.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like women 35 through 39.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Better than most people can do.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_02: There's only 20 women.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_02: Your 25th marathon?
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_02: 24th.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: 24th?
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_02: Don't do sorry.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: I will really congratulate you once you get to your 25th.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: But 25th is coming in a couple weeks.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'll be officially halfway through the states.
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_00: Well, congrats.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'm proud of you.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_02: That was a hard one.
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 8:57
  SPEAKER_02: Crazy weather in the U.S.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Crazy everything in the US.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Which we recognize.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know what?
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_02: If you are feeling all the feelings from um some craziness happening in the world right now, and you need to listen to some lightheartedness about torture and execution and sometimes murder.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, and disembowelment.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_02: Scary evil tyrants like King Henry VIII, who would execute people.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_02: Like this is your show.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_02: This is the show for you.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: This is where you come to take your mind off of things.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: And in the words of Francois Damien, the day will be hard.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_02: The day will be hard.
• 9:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know what?
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_02: I do have to congratulate you.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't sure how we were gonna transition from whatever we were gonna talk about, which we never really know what is gonna be.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_02: How would that somehow because I wanted to bring up Alabama.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, okay.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_02: But that was a really smooth transition.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_02: Which was unplanned, but yet surprisingly weirdly it worked out because you and I are on the same wavelength.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: We are.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, we tee each other up like that.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_02: That's why I talk over you.
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_02: Unplanned.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_02: Unplanned of my interruptions.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: I love it.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_02: All right.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_02: We yes, we have an English tutor execution.
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_02: I love a good old tutor execution.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_02: Like you're so classic.
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_02: It's just classic.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_02: You just can't go wrong with a nice tutor beheading.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like keep it.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: Keep it old school.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: We still have so many tutor executions.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I know we've covered a lot of the big ones, um, but like Megan lent me a book recently, which I don't want to talk about too much because we actually have a guest that we're going to be talking to soon on the show.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't want to give too much away.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: But we have this book um written by a specific author that we'll be talking to.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_00: And so we got thrown back in the tutor court era, and we're like, there's so many good ones that we still need to do.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_00: So we got a list.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: There are.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, well, tonight's victim is Bishop John Fisher.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Probably a name you've heard of before.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, a man who has gone down in legacy as a fighter for the Catholic Church and a someone that King Henry VIII really disliked.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 11:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'll put it that way.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: Which is why we have two books in front of us.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_00: One is the Holy Bible, the other is a book on um Catherine of Aragon by Garrett Mattingley.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: I love that you pulled the Bible out.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: I just thought it looked appropriate.
• 11:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good touch.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: It's good there.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I think I got that Bible on my first communion.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's beautiful.
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's also part of my history.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_03: I like that.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, um, so Bishop John Fisher.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, we'll we'll go through, we have actually a lot of information on his life.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Again, a lot of times in Tudor England, we don't even know years of birth or how they spent their early days.
• 11:52
  SPEAKER_00: We know a fair amount about him.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, Megan.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: I know why.
• 11:56
  SPEAKER_00: Pourquoi?
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_02: Because he's a man.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, ouch.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_02: No, but I'm serious.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_02: We always like, oh, we don't have their early life.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, I don't know when Anne Boleyn was actually born, although we're pretty certain of it, but there were no records.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: But he's a man, so there's all kinds of records on him.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yay.
• 12:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, took a sip of my wine.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no, you're right.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I think because he came from a higher class family, which again, Anne Boleyn obviously did, but sometimes it's just specific people.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_00: We just have more information.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_00: So we're gonna get into it.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_00: Early life of John Fisher.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_00: So John Fisher was born in Beverly, Yorkshire in 1469.
• 12:32
  SPEAKER_00: He was the son of Robert Fisher and a woman named Agnes.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he was the eldest of four children.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I believe he was the eldest, right?
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I don't know that.
• 12:40
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um That's why you're just early life.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Megan just kicks back and zones out at this part.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: This is the part I stare off into.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: She's like, tag me when you need me.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm playing out Thomas Bullen, playing as Frollo and hunch back another dog right now.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'll just say things weird to see if she picks it up.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Since she just continues to stare off into space.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: I'm kidding.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: I don't do that.
• 13:03
  SPEAKER_01: Live stream.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the Robert Fisher, uh, who is John Fisher's father, he was wealthy because he was a textile merchant.
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: So that's kind of where their family wealth came from.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Robert Fisher, the father, died suddenly in 1477.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_00: So John Fisher was only eight years old at this time when he lost his father.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sad, sad.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but Agnes, his mother, went on to marry, and she had like four or five other children after that.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_00: So now he's the eldest of many children.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's gotta be eight.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: Fertile.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, eight to nine.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so by the time uh John Fisher is about twelve or thirteen, the year is 1482, he and this is seems so young to me, but he attends the University of Cambridge, which is pretty young to go to university, even for that time, I think.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:50
  SPEAKER_00: But back then, Cambridge wasn't kind of the prestigious uh institution we know today.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: It was really stagnant academically at that time.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that was mostly because they were just like losing Maine's like big important scholars there.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: They were losing patronage, and one affects the other.
• 14:08
  SPEAKER_00: So over time it just became kind of a lackluster institution.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: But he did get his bachelor bachelors of arts, which is so funny.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's so modern.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I have.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: Me too.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't know we had so much in common with John Fisher.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, we're the same, basically.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then he went on to get his Masters of Arts in uh 1491.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_02: I wish I had done more research on like the history of getting your Bachelor of Arts.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_02: Like what that was when you did start.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 14:37
  SPEAKER_02: What does that mean back then in the 1400s?
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 14:40
  SPEAKER_00: Did they have like a credit system?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: Did they have tassels and graduation gowns and robes?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: I bet they had robes.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like robes have always been a part of the academic community.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because, and okay, I'm totally speaking off the cuff.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: I have no idea.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: This is not fact-checked, but I feel like early scholars were typically like monks and people of the cloth type of thing who always wore robes anyway.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: So I feel like academia started to be very much tied in with that look of like robes and that's a good theory.
• 15:10
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Totally a theory.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know for sure.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, when you ever you watch like a Middle Ages movie or something, it's like the monks are always in the robes.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like Friar Tuck.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, like Friar Tuck, and they're always like copying manuscripts.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I just get that vibe.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, you know very um, very literary.
• 15:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good word.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: A steward.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: A steer?
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_00: Am I saying that right?
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, uh, I am not so learned.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_00: Not as learned as John Fisher.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but also the the year 1491 is when he becomes an ordained minister.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_00: So he becomes ordained in the priesthood.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_00: So he's committed to the church early.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: And uh you gotta figure maybe, you know, as the eldest son, he just figured he has some sort of responsibility to his family, to God, all of that.
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: And only three years later, he's then assigned as a vicar um to, and I I think you have it written down as well, but North Allerton in Yorkshire.
• 16:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he's only 22.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think you said legally he wasn't even of age to be a very good one.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_02: But he wasn't supposed to be a vicar yet, but they liked him so much they made an exception for his age.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_02: They did.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: He also became proctor of the University of Cambridge.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: So he's just like flying through all these steps.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_02: A proctor.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, like he's representing the university.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: Wait until I tell you his next title.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, okay.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: In 1497, he's appointed master debater.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: I'm such a child.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think we're mature enough to do this episode.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like master debater.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_01: The master debater club.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, if you have a debate team out there, if you're a high school kid on a debate team, that's a hot name for your group.
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_02: I'm sure, I'm sure someone's done that.
• 16:48
  SPEAKER_02: And if you haven't, you heard it here.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: You're right.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: Give us credit.
• 16:52
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I gotta say, I love when I go to like pub trivia or bar trivia, and everyone has like kind of sexual nerdy names for their teams, you know?
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, I digress.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so he was he was proctor of University of Cambridge, again, sure, whatever that title means, master debater.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, appointed champlain.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_00: Champlain?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and he was even the first professor of a divinity, which sounds very Harry Potter-ish.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like Professor Trelawney?
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like divination.
• 17:21
  SPEAKER_02: Divinity.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: Divinity is obviously like theology.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, that's not divination.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: That I don't think he's conjuring images of the future.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_02: So great titles he was he was racking them up.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_02: Uh even what I find is one of the most prestigious roles that he was able to achieve is Confessor to Margaret Beaufort, which I realize I mentioned her once already.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_02: I think she must have been like subconsciously on my mind.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um who did you say she was as a Disney person?
• 17:48
  SPEAKER_02: The evil queen.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: Oh damn.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: I praise.
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_02: In looks because she's uh elegant and cold.
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and doesn't show her hairline.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_02: You're gonna say emotions.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_02: Or her emotions or her hairline.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_02: She keeps her he her emotions up her large sleeves.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_02: Nice that drape and cloud about her.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_02: She's walking through the spiral staircases of the castles.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: To the dungeon.
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: To the dungeon.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: To make her mummy dust potion.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 18:21
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry, we are getting off track again.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um no, but seriously though, John Fisher, confessor for Margaret Beaufort.
• 18:29
  SPEAKER_02: So Margaret Beaufort is the mother of King Henry the Seventh.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_02: So, grandmother to King Henry VIII.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_02: So that's a pretty prestigious role for someone to have.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_02: As a confessor, you are basically the Queen Mother of England.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: You are hearing all of her sins and confessions.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and so that's like a lot of responsibility to hold that in.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 18:53
  SPEAKER_02: And I also feel like Margaret Beaufort was someone who was a very sneaky and smart woman.
• 19:00
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe ambitious is always a good word to use.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_02: Love it.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_02: But she, she, I mean, there's so much out there about how she was the one who advocated and really encouraged her son, Henry Tudor, to make him realize that he had as much right to the throne as anyone else and really promoted for her son to take over and become king of England.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I just want to know, maybe I'm reading too much into like, you know.
• 19:27
  SPEAKER_02: So you think she's like a mom and jerk I see momager in her.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: I also don't want to lean in too much into like the white queen or the white princess on, you know, the shows where if they do portray her as that type, where she's just constantly in the back, in the background, trying to come up with her plan and her devices.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of these regent queens were kind of like that though.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like they had to be.
• 19:51
  SPEAKER_00: They had to be very politically savvy to make sure their sons stayed on the throne.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: You know, made the right alliances for their daughters.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_02: And wives.
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think because like the unspoken women of this era, they had to, they weren't able to voice things so directly.
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_02: They had to, like Anne Boleyn, for example, plant the seeds in these men's brains to use as as their vessels of communication because they couldn't stand up.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, some women did, you know, Matilda and there were some some very, very strong female rulers still.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, I'm getting off track again.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's good.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I glad I'm glad you brought that up though.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: Because I feel like we we hear about Margaret a lot, but we don't know a lot about her personality or her motives.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: And I think this shines a little bit of a light on that.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: And I think to have to trust someone like John Fisher to be her confessor, I think it says a lot about him as a person, how people trusted him.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_02: He was really moving up quickly, um, becoming kind of famous, shall we say.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 20:55
  SPEAKER_02: His n his name was becoming more and more recognizable.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, at this point, because Margaret Beaufort was so invested in him that she started um funding a lot of the colleges as well.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_02: So she funded, founded St.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_02: John's and Chris's Christ's College in Cambridge.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: They're like colleges in Cambridge.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, they're like call yeah.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_02: I just literally was gonna repeat exactly why you said Nikki says yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_02: If I repeat what Elizabeth says, I also know what I'm talking about.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I think technically John was the one that founded them, but through her patronage, she funded them.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: She funded them and he founded them.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: She had the purse.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um he was the first Fisher was the first Cambridge chairperson, and he was president of Queen's College.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_02: And it was at these colleges that he promoted very diverse types of different types of studies.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_02: So Latin, Greek, Hebrew.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_02: He was overall like he was a good guy.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_02: He was preaching a lot about um Um, the power of prayer, um, praying for the dead.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and then he he really kind of walked the walk.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: He didn't just talk the talk.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: So he lived a very humble life, despite being the confessor of like the the mother queen of England.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: Uh he stayed true to his roots.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: He did a lot of monk-like activities, would you call it?
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like he lived his life very like fruit, like simply and frugally, you know.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't into uh, I guess, fancy things.
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: And like, yes, he had these titles, but that's kind of where it ended.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he didn't really flash things around like that.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: I think about Woolsey being the complete opposite of him.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: He's fleshy.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_02: Where he has like all of Hampton Court Palace is where he lives.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_02: And a mistress.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 22:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um, one thing that Fisher did that I thought was funny, speaking of praying for the dead, is he had this big admiration and like this big um, like, I think gratitude and respect towards the dead.
• 23:00
  SPEAKER_02: But he always kept a skull, a human skull, on his altar and at his dining room table while he was eating.
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_02: I think to remind everybody of we're all moral here.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_02: This life is short, there's another world beyond this, there's something bigger, there's something deeper, and not celebrated death in a way, but he always kept it as a constant reminder that we are all equal in the sense that we are all just gonna die one day and we're all gonna be this like this skull here.
• 23:27
  SPEAKER_02: Ooh, deep.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: I like that.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_02: Creepy and I like it.
• 23:30
  SPEAKER_00: I think we need to get skulls.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: That'd be cool.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: Just put them on our little desk here.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Next to our Bible.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: I like it.
• 23:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, yeah, and and you brought up a good point when you mentioned, you know, him emphasizing the Latin and Greek and Hebrew studies and all of this.
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: We have to remember that this is kind of the turning point in history from the Dark Ages to like the Renaissance.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're rediscovering classic text, like learning is becoming chic and vogue again.
• 23:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so a place like Cambridge, which at this point, again, stagnant academically, is now kind of flourishing.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's attracting new top scholars and he's uh getting more money funded into the universities.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like again, one causes the other.
• 24:13
  SPEAKER_00: Finally getting attention.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_02: And clearly Margaret approved of all of this because um she also got her son Henry excited about him.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_02: And Fisher became the tutor of the young King Henry VIII.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: He did.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's a huge title.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, yes, you're a confessor to the mother, but to be tutor of the future king is a big, big deal.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Well, they didn't know he was gonna be king because Arthur was still around.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's true.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder at what point, like how old Henry VIII was when he was his tutor.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_02: I just heard that he was young.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_02: Which I think we need to keep this in mind.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Like, keep that in the back of your mind for a little bit as we get through his story, because Elizabeth's gonna get into it, the conflict between Henry and John.
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_02: But to kind of have that image is an interesting thought of him teaching Henry what he thought was important and passing that along, and then just to kind of have Henry turn on him, like what a jerk.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's gonna be an interesting relationship to explore here in a bit.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but before we get there, uh just a few more promotions he gets, which is exciting.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_00: So in 1504, uh he was appointed to the Bishop of Rochester, which for most people, I think Rochester was kind of where you start your initial, I guess, bishopship or path to say bishopship, bishopship, path on the papal road, whatever you want to say.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he remained there.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: I think he held held that title for the rest of his life because he was very active uh in his community.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_00: He visited all the churches, he helped support, he was a very active preacher.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_00: So he didn't, again, just have these titles to have them.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_00: Like he was very passionate about his work.
• 25:52
  SPEAKER_02: I think that shows more about how humble he was as a person because if most people use that title as a stepping stone and he was comfortable to make that his life, but make it the best it was, he didn't care so much of the the flashiness of well now.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_02: I want to be like Bishop of Canterbury.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_02: That's a that's a better city, that is a you know, a more righteous city.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_02: He's like, no, no, no, I'm fine here.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_02: It's my little stepping stone.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_00: And he still was able to do other things just beyond the bishopship, which I love now saying.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know if that's a word, but um he uh he was elected chancellor of Cambridge.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: So remember, he's had different titles uh at Cambridge throughout the years, but he's officially elected chancellor.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: And as a chancellor, you have to be re-elected every 10 years.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_00: So because he kept getting re-elected, they eventually just made him Chancellor for life.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: That was like his new Oh, I didn't know that.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's funny.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so so here he is, like tutor to King Henry VIII, uh, Chancellor of Cambridge, Bishop of Rochester.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like he's just kind of the top of his game in all of these respects.
• 26:56
  SPEAKER_00: And everyone is again just so attracted to him and his passion and devotion.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_00: So he uh is most he's he's well known as one of the most like learned men in Europe.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Sexy.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_00: Very sexy.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: So yes, he's at kind of the peak of his game, but in the 1520s, things start to change in England and in Europe in regards to religion.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: So Lutheranism and Protestantism are on the rise.
• 27:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and Fisher is really, really a staunch defender of Catholicism.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So he's not afraid to stand up to these new ways of thinking.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he writes pamphlets and different things, kind of arguing why Lutheranism isn't correct.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, he's making sure he's, again, still very active in his preaching and saying, hey, no, stick to the old ways, stick to Catholicism, like this is the righteous path.
• 27:49
  SPEAKER_00: And the worst happens when little boy King Henry VIII grows up, becomes king, and is is eventually wanting to divorce his first wife.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're Catholic, you do not believe in divorce, period.
• 28:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think that was a huge turning point when um Henry VII and Margaret Beaufort died.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah and a new uh, you know, Arthur was barely king, and this new era comes up with King Henry.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, which by the way, he Fisher also preached at both of their funerals for King Henry VII and for Margaret Beaufort, which is a big deal, I think.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_02: And that's when the first kind of conflict happens between Henry and John Fisher, and it comes down to some of the money that Margaret Beaufort, his grandmother, was spending on Cambridge Cambridge, and that was their first little tiff.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know the details of it, but it has to do with money and should it be funded or not.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm sure John was like, well, yeah, your grandmother had this money for Cambridge and for the schools and the education, the universities.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_02: And that wasn't quite Henry's jam.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but yeah, that that's kind of I think the the start of their odd relationship, but then it escalates as we get into the 1520s, the 1530s, when he's with Catherine of Aragon, but things are shifting.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I think it was officially like 1527 when Henry starts to get a bit public about the fact that he wants to divorce Catherine of Aragon.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm pointing at her book.
• 29:18
  SPEAKER_00: Good job.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and for those of you that don't know tutor history, maybe you're new to the show, maybe you're unfamiliar with a lot of this.
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_00: Um, King Henry VIII has been with Catherine the longest.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was like 23 years-seven years, 23 years?
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_00: I should know 24 years.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, we should know that.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: I should know this.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: But a long time, more like longer than any other wife in his future.
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the she was a Spanish princess, um, she was deeply Catholic, and her only terrible thing about her was that she was not producing a son and heir.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: The audacity.
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: The audacity of her.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so she did have one daughter, Queen Mary, who'd go on to become Queen Mary.
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: So she had married the daughter, but uh Henry was convinced, oh, like we are barren, we have no sons, you know, and this is this is cause for annulment.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_00: So on on the grounds of uh Leviticus verse which says, like, thou shalt not lay with my brother's wife, or whatever the quote is, you know, he starts convincing himself, like, this marriage is cursed, I need an annulment.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it conveniently around the time where Catherine of Aragon's out of her childbearing years, and conveniently when he meets the lovely Anne Boleyn.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: So our favorite.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Our favorite girl.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so this is all coming together, you know, and and Bishop Fisher is kind of um at a place where he he doesn't know how to prevent this from happening.
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_00: He knows Henry's hell bent on getting this divorce, and he is not have and Fisher's not having it.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_00: So he becomes one of the biggest supporters of Catherine of Aragon.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_00: He is, again, like writing propaganda and um distributing things to people that are saying, no, like she's the rightful queen, their marriage is sacred, uh, the sacram, the sacrament of marriage and being together this long, you know, is sacred.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_00: And so he starts comparing himself even to John the Baptist, who we actually did an episode on uh in season six, episode five, because in that story we talk about how John the Baptist is really opposed to this one specific marriage with a woman that he finds unsuitable.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_00: So Henry, or excuse me, John Fisher is kind of comparing himself to John the Baptist's story and saying, no, don't you see like you don't want to be with Anne Boleyn, you can't just throw away this other marriage.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know, he's he's trying to convince everyone of in his eyes what's what the truth is.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's such an interesting time period and where sides were really being divided because the Anne Boleyn coming into the court and catching the eye of King Henry VIII and turning his head away from his wife of so long, somewhere between 20 to 28 years, according to us.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Someone fact check us.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: I know it's somewhere.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's got resources near me.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um but what I was gonna say is I think it's such a laired conflict because it's not just that people are upset about Anne Boleyn thinking that she's like the new hot thing in town and they don't like the fact that she's this, you know, taking over Catherine of Aragon's role.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I don't even think it's so much of people being upset that Henry's got eyes on another woman because he's been with lots of other women.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: He's had plenty of mistresses.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_02: It comes down to a religion issue because Henry the Eighth is compromising not only his own religion of Catholicism between England and the Catholic Church and the Pope.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Catherine of Aragon, like everything she stands for, is Catholic.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_02: She's a huge devout Catholic member.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_02: And Valyn is supportive of Protestantism, Reformation, Lutheranism, which was another area that Bishop was Bishop, that uh Fisher was really outspoken about.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_02: He was very anti-Lutheran.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_02: He wrote like, what was it, like a 200,000-word response directly to Martin Luther about his opinions on how you need more than just scripture to have a relationship with God and deep the deep, deep, deep religious issues that come up between Catholicism and other d denominations of Christianity.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but so now not only is Henry tempted and goes forward with separating England from Cathol the Catholic Church, right?
• 33:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but also divorce is not a part of the everything that Anne Boleyn stood for.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_02: It stood for a disruption of their religion, it stood for tearing away England from the Catholic Church, from the Pope, from everything that they knew and loved and what they truly believed was their one way to God and to get into heaven.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_02: For Henry now to say, I am the supreme head of the Church of England, no one is higher than me than God.
• 34:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to remember in this era, like early 1500s in England, I mean, your faith is what your whole life is built on.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's like the church dictates your routine and you know, like when you go to mass, who you see at mass, all the root like routines and ceremonies that you do, the sacraments that you get in life.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, most of the books that you have are probably prayer books or something to do with religion.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so it's like it's not just, okay, yeah, I'm loosely religious and the religion of the country's different today.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_02: That's their life.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's their life.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: You know, this is a different age.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they really thought about their immortal souls all the time.
• 34:46
  SPEAKER_00: And that's why you had things like public beheadings and scary executions, because it kept people in line of like, these people were bad.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is how it ends.
• 34:55
  SPEAKER_00: But if you're good and righteous, you will go to heaven.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone lived their life this way, even if you were um, you know, someone out in the country, away from court, like the church still dictated a lot of your life.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_02: And Henry started doing things that obviously people were not happy about.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_02: He recognized Woolsey as Cardinal Woolsey having authority over the Pope.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_02: Like, okay, that's not something that they that they were used to.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and Fisher became super hypersensitive to all of this.
• 35:24
  SPEAKER_02: And I love, I love this.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_02: He was very careful.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_02: He was a man of few words.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_02: And when he did speak and when he did agree to things, he was very meticulous about what it was he was saying.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: So when Henry declares himself as supreme head of the Church of England, Fisher kind of adds this clause, so far as God's law permits, to really kind of create this safety net for him of like, uh, I mean, like God first.
• 35:52
  SPEAKER_02: But like up until a certain limit here, right, Henry?
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and Thomas More was known for doing that as well.
• 35:59
  SPEAKER_00: We have an episode on Thomas More, too.
• 36:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, look it up.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: But uh, but yeah, a lot of these very fierce Catholic uh supporters, you know, they would say things like that.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, of course, I believe my king, you know, prince of this land type of thing, but they always have to leave that little bit of room for like, but God's laws are reverse.
• 36:17
  SPEAKER_02: I I love you as much as God's law permits, Henry.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so Fisher starts finding himself in some some scary situations.
• 36:26
  SPEAKER_00: We have a really fun story that we've talked about before on the show back in season one.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: But in the early pre-COVID times.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Pre-COVID.
• 36:34
  SPEAKER_00: Remember that?
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: Man, forever ago.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in the first early 1530s, several members of Fisher's household all get mysteriously sick after eating porridge together.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_02: Of all things.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_02: You know, whenever I have a dinner party, I always make porridge.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_02: It's like my go-to.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_02: Go-to.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: It's really it's a real comfort food conversation starter.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: Porridge.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: Porridge.
• 36:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm over.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, eating porridge.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: Is it like just oatmeal?
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_00: I was gonna say, is it oatmeal?
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Is it grits?
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_02: Cream of wheat.
• 37:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not quite sure.
• 37:06
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't really know either.
• 37:07
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but they were eating porridge.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_02: You should have had for dinner tonight.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_00: You're right, I failed.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sorry.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: It was kind of tasty.
• 37:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I slaved for hours.
• 37:16
  SPEAKER_00: No, but uh after this porridge eating dinner, two people in his household died.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, oopsies.
• 37:23
  SPEAKER_00: Guess what though?
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Fisher, being the very religious, very severe man that he was, did not eat that night.
• 37:30
  SPEAKER_00: He was fasting.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: You know what?
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_00: Things happen for reasons.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: So he was fine.
• 37:37
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone else was getting sick around him, two people died.
• 37:39
  SPEAKER_00: He was fine.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: My favorite scene in Showtime The Tutors when he's looking around and everyone's everyone's dropping over around him, and he's like, it's the porridge.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_02: It's very dramatic.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_02: I think they made it soup in that show though.
• 37:53
  SPEAKER_00: Idiots.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: Fools, creative liberties.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, but um, because of this, they blame the cook, right?
• 38:00
  SPEAKER_00: So we did in our very first season, I think it's episode four, um, we did an episode on Richard Roos.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: So Richard Roos, this poor cook who was apparently the reason everyone died, again, allegedly, um, doesn't even have a trial.
• 38:14
  SPEAKER_00: Like, apparently, he's just sentenced to execution right away.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: Just he did it, he's the cook.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_00: We're like two people are dead.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: And how did they kill him, Megan?
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_00: How do they execute him?
• 38:25
  SPEAKER_02: It was a very fitting execution.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_02: Seeing as he was a cook, the thing that would make sense is to cook him alive.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_02: Tasty.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_02: And they boiled him alive.
• 38:36
  SPEAKER_02: Alive.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_02: Supposedly, he had the option of feet first or head first, which we had a very deep discussion, if I can recall back to 2019 about feet foot or feet, whoa, feet first or head first.
• 38:50
  SPEAKER_02: Did you say feet first?
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_02: No, I'm a head first girl.
• 38:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I think I was head first too.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I did say feet.
• 38:55
  SPEAKER_02: Who would do?
• 38:56
  SPEAKER_02: I think you did.
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: Was I correct?
• 38:57
  SPEAKER_02: I think you said feet first, probably if I can remember.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_02: It was something like, cause I don't want to scream at them all the way down until the very last second, half my head up.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_00: Or cause my feet are always freezing, so they would just be normal temperature for a bit.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_02: No, you want to get that over with.
• 39:13
  SPEAKER_02: That's oh, that's such a terrible.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta re-listen to that episode, see if I'm the same person that I was.
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_02: That's what we should do.
• 39:21
  SPEAKER_02: I never, ever, ever go back and listen to anything.
• 39:24
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I usually listen like a week or two after they're released, but I haven't listened to old ones.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_00: You know what'd be funny?
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know how like when movies come out, they have the director's commentary.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: Oh God.
• 39:35
  SPEAKER_00: You know, so that's like the director watching their own movie and they're telling you, like, oh, this part I wanted to do this, but we did this instead, or whatever.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_02: That'd be funny if you and I just do like a YouTube thing where we listen to a random old episode and we'll have to hide my face out of embarrassment, I think, because I can't listen to myself talk.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_02: I don't care what year it was.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_02: Really cringe.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_02: I cringe.
• 39:55
  SPEAKER_02: I think everyone kind of cringes listening to the self.
• 39:57
  SPEAKER_02: No, or is that?
• 39:58
  SPEAKER_00: No, most people do.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_00: I I can always tell when I'm really like good on an episode when I'm listening to it, and I'm like, oh, I hope I say this next.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then I do.
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, good, good job, Elizabeth.
• 40:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, but what there's times where I clearly I'm like, oh god, I just wasn't there on that one.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes I'm like, what are we even talking about?
• 40:15
  SPEAKER_00: Stop.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_02: Well, back to what we are talking about.
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_02: Richard Bruce was boiled alive, yes, for the the attempted assassination of John Fisher.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_02: Correct.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then not too long later, a cannonball.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_00: This sounds crazy.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: I yeah, I should have set that up better, but literally was fired through his house and it missed his study where he was by inches, by like just a little schmidge.
• 40:46
  SPEAKER_02: Who is to blame for all of these occurrences?
• 40:49
  SPEAKER_00: People really pointed their fingers at the Boleyn family.
• 40:53
  SPEAKER_00: Rude.
• 40:54
  SPEAKER_00: First of all, very accusatory.
• 40:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_02: There were lots of people who were against Fisher because of what he was standing for of being anti, anti-all reformation, all of that.
• 41:08
  SPEAKER_02: But I don't, I don't think we can blame the Boleins on a cannonball.
• 41:13
  SPEAKER_00: I also, I mean, they said that he lived um right like on the River Thames, Thames.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: And we're wondering if like that means they were on a boat going up.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_02: I don't, I don't.
• 41:24
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's funny that they just blame it on the Boleins, but clearly they were in a bit of a dispute.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 41:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but it is around this time in 1533 when Fisher starts communicating secretly with the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_00: Scandalous.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: Bold in yeah, very bold.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_00: And he's again, I don't know how explicit he was in his communication.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think he was communicating through the imperial ambassador uh Eustace Jeppois.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: If I'm saying that right.
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he was slowly trying to convince the Roman Emperor to invade England.
• 42:01
  SPEAKER_00: He was essentially saying, like, hey, I think we can get enough people to revolt in England who want Catholicism here, and we need the backing of Rome and the backing of the Pope for you guys to come in and essentially take Henry down and his crazy ideas about reformation.
• 42:16
  SPEAKER_02: Which that is treason.
• 42:18
  SPEAKER_00: Super treasonous, right?
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_02: Like, if anything, that's what they could have gotten him on.
• 42:22
  SPEAKER_00: But the yeah, like I said, I don't know if there was letters found or how they knew this information, but he was doing some sneaky things.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what happens also that same year in 1533?
• 42:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, there's a wedding.
• 42:37
  SPEAKER_02: That's a beautiful secret wedding.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_02: Beautiful secret wedding with his already pregnant woman, Anne Boleyn and King Henry VIII get married in secret.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I don't that's like the the people who know, they know.
• 42:50
  SPEAKER_02: Again, I feel like we have such a mix of listeners here.
• 42:53
  SPEAKER_02: Some people who are huge tutor enthusiasts and they know the ins and outs of Anne Boleyn's story and all that comes with it.
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_02: And then I know we also have a lot of listeners where that's okay, like this is all very new.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_02: But um Anne Boleyn, if you do the math of when Princess Elizabeth I was born, was already pregnant.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 43:14
  SPEAKER_02: They got married in January 1533 in secret.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_02: I think Charles Brandon was like their witness.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_02: The different depictions have them like in a dungeon all secret about it.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_02: He was still married legally to Catherine of Aragon at the time.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, at that point he was he had two wives.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_02: Crazy.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: Eventually annuls the marriage with Catherine of Aragon.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_02: And then they have a big coronation that spring, summer, I think it was June, I think, related to.
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, for Anne Boleyn.
• 43:42
  SPEAKER_02: And at this point, she's very pregnant with child with the future Princess Elizabeth, who they assume is gonna be a boy.
• 43:50
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but this is where Fisher has absolutely lost all control at this point.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's of no coincidence that just A week after they get married, Fisher gets arrested.
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_02: They very much wanted him out of the way of everything.
• 44:08
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't want him around for the coronation.
• 44:10
  SPEAKER_02: They didn't want him around for the festivities and the celebrations.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: Or the official annulment.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_02: None of it.
• 44:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_02: They knew he was just going to cause problems.
• 44:18
  SPEAKER_02: And he's not a fan of this marriage.
• 44:20
  SPEAKER_02: He's pro-Catherine of Aragon.
• 44:22
  SPEAKER_02: So they put him in the slammer.
• 44:25
  SPEAKER_00: The slammer.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: And by the next year, 1534, Fisher had to also give up all of his personal estates.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_00: So they're slowly just taking everything away from him.
• 44:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he still, even you know, being imprisoned, giving up all of his personal things, he still refused to acknowledge Henry and Anne's heirs as legitimate.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: So there was this thing, I think it was called the first act of succession.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, the the f there's the first succession act.
• 44:53
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, first thank you.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_02: And then the oath of supremacy.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_02: There's like two different things happening.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_00: And one is um to essentially acknowledge King and Anne's heirs as legitimate.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like they're like, oh, whatever uh children he had with Catherine of Aragon, which was basically just Mary.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, she's now a bastard.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: Only these heirs matter.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_00: And then what was the other one name?
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry.
• 45:18
  SPEAKER_02: The Oath of Supremacy, which is saying, yes, I see King Henry VIII as the head supreme church of England.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: The I can't get my words on either.
• 45:28
  SPEAKER_02: The supreme head of the Church of England.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and you're recognizing that the only being higher than King Henry VIII is God.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: And Fisher just didn't agree with that.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_02: If this sounds familiar, yes, this is the same exact reason for for Sir Thomas Moore's arrest.
• 45:49
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_02: So Moore resigned from being Chancellor back in 1532.
• 45:54
  SPEAKER_02: He was also just as pissed off about all of this.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and they were kind of in on it together, Fisher and Moore.
• 46:00
  SPEAKER_02: I think they really banded together, they stood their ground, they both very much admired each other, they they worked closely together in service, and they both agreed we are not going to sign these oaths because we don't believe in this.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_02: We don't believe that Henry is all powerful and is more powerful than the Pope and breaking away from the Church of England.
• 46:23
  SPEAKER_02: And uh it's also a fun fact, Fisher was the only bishop to not sign this.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's impressive.
• 46:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it, I mean, they knew the consequences of this too.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_00: At this point, they had seen other executions take place, they knew it was on the line, and both Thomas More and John Fisher were so devout to their faith and so uh, again, I guess, some deep belief of what they'd grown up with that they were not gonna change.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_00: They weren't gonna admit, you know, that Henry was correct, they weren't gonna admit that like all of this change was good for England.
• 47:02
  SPEAKER_00: They were like, absolutely not.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_00: We are gonna hold the course, hold the line, and they never gave in.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_02: Well, and I think Moore may have verbalized this a little bit more during his trial because again, Fisher was a man of few words.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um but Sir Thomas More was basically saying, Okay, so I'm paraphrasing here.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_02: He said in a much more eloquent way.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_02: I don't have an exact quote in front of me.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 47:27
  SPEAKER_02: But he basically says, Okay, I sign this and I get to live, um, but I damn my moral soul.
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 47:33
  SPEAKER_02: Or I don't sign it, I die, but I will spend forever in heaven and in the grace of God for standing by my beliefs and not giving into a tyrant who just wants to control everything.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 47:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so so they were very, again, uh, they held fast to their beliefs.
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: And uh Fisher wasn't really treated that well in in Tower of London either.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: Terrible, terrible conditions.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: One one star review.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, one star review.
• 48:01
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've talked about Tower of London and the varying degrees in which people stayed there, some extremely uncomfortable, some somewhat okay, like living in apartments, still having uh, you know, uh service service attendance, some furs.
• 48:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but he wasn't treated uh super great, and he wasn't even allowed to have a priest with him.
• 48:20
  SPEAKER_02: So he couldn't partake in the offensive ritual to not allow a bishop to have a his own priest during the most trying time of his entire life.
• 48:29
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 48:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, kind of messed up, right?
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: He was there for over a year.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: And they still didn't really have a specific way to get him to the scaffold.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so what they did was uh Richard Rich, who I don't know his exact title.
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: Do you know?
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_02: He's in parliament.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_02: He's one of Henry's buddies, cronies.
• 48:49
  SPEAKER_02: He was he wasn't a little slimy one, Richard Rich.
• 48:52
  SPEAKER_02: Don't be confused by Richard Roos.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: That was the cook.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: That was cook.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_02: Richard Rich is a nobleman who's a little slimy sleaze ball, in my opinion.
• 49:00
  SPEAKER_02: It's not Macaulay Culkin's dad in Richie Rich, the movie.
• 49:03
  SPEAKER_02: I know this is the more prestigious, Richard Rich.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_02: Richard Rich.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_02: Love that name.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 49:08
  SPEAKER_00: So Richard Richard Richard Rich visits Fisher in the Tower of London, and he essentially kind of entraps Fisher at this point.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_00: He he tricks him into speaking ill of the king.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_00: He essentially says, Hey, this is a completely secret conversation.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_00: I just need to know if you still think poorly of Henry and what's going on in England.
• 49:29
  SPEAKER_00: And Fisher's like, Well, yeah.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_00: Exact quote.
• 49:35
  SPEAKER_02: He was probably hungry and not in his right state of mind to say these things.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:39
  SPEAKER_00: So again, I'm not all kinds of things when I'm hungry.
• 49:42
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 49:43
  SPEAKER_00: So he essentially says, like, yes, I still hold true to the belief that I don't think King Henry VIII is the um supreme head of the church.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_00: I still believe in the papacy and and Rome and Catholicism.
• 49:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so Richard Rich says, okay, thank you.
• 49:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I need.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: And now he has a firsthand account, a witness testimony that he can go back with and say, Okay, I got him.
• 50:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's treason.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_02: So rude.
• 50:09
  SPEAKER_02: Something else funny happened though while he was in prison.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_02: I love this story.
• 50:12
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, this is great.
• 50:14
  SPEAKER_02: So uh Fisher obviously has a lot of support back in Rome, and the Pope actually grants him another promotion to be cardinal, to go from bishop to cardinal.
• 50:24
  SPEAKER_02: And this is really just, you know, Rome's way of being like, hey, you know, we've got one of our favorite dudes in prison right now, but we're gonna ignore all of that and could try to continue to support him and help him.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:34
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're trying to, they kind of ask, like, how do we get his hat to him?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: They want to get the cardinal hat to make it official.
• 50:42
  SPEAKER_02: And Henry's response was, you can't, but how about I send you his head instead to put it on?
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's pretty messed up.
• 50:50
  SPEAKER_00: He's like, You can't send the hat here, but we can send you his head, and you can put the hat on him in Rome with just the head.
• 50:57
  SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth and I were talking about that phrase.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_02: We're like, there's no way Henry was witty enough to come up with that.
• 51:02
  SPEAKER_02: That had to have been an Ann Boleyn line.
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_02: It had to have been Ann.
• 51:05
  SPEAKER_00: That was like pillow talk and.
• 51:07
  SPEAKER_00: And Henry's like, oh, that's good.
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: I'm gonna write that down.
• 51:10
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna use that one.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Mind if I use that, babe?
• 51:13
  SPEAKER_01: Give me my quill.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna write that one over to the Pope.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 51:17
  SPEAKER_00: So, so nice little quip that they got in there.
• 51:20
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe Henry original, maybe not.
• 51:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but this is this is all taking place in 1535.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_00: So, so Pope makes uh Fisher a cardinal in May of 1535, and then by June 17th, 1535, the trial officially takes place.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: And let's be real, this trial was pretty rigged from the start.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, as they are the justices who made up the, I don't know, the committee that decides your sentence or your verdict and your sentence.
• 51:50
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it was made up of Anne Boleyn's father, of Thomas Cromwell.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Frollo.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 51:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, they're you know, all these people that were supporters of Anne Boleyn and the Reformation, you know, and were completely on King Henry's side in terms of, oh yeah, let's just all be Protestant now and it's okay.
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: So he uh John Fisher is officially charged with treason.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, because we already mentioned they had taken away all of his estates and kind of all of his worldly goods, he is treated as a commoner in this, even though he has all of these titles, like with the church, with the university.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_00: Um, he's a freaking cardinal, for goodness sake.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: You know, like they they treat him as a commoner and they say you are going to be sentenced to drawn and quartering at Tyburn.
• 52:39
  SPEAKER_02: Which is the worst sentence ever.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_02: Hang drawn and quartering is when you get dragged through the street, you get hanged up just a little bit where you don't lose consciousness, but it really sucks.
• 52:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 52:49
  SPEAKER_02: They cut you down, they cut you open.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_02: Your intestines, they pull out all your insides, burn them, cut off all your junk in front of you.
• 52:57
  SPEAKER_02: Oh yeah.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_02: And then they cut off your head, and then they cut off your limbs.
• 53:02
  SPEAKER_02: I think it's limbs and then head, isn't it?
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: Last.
• 53:04
  SPEAKER_02: I think it depends on how much the executioner hates you.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 53:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't know.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: And how you're doing.
• 53:10
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 53:11
  SPEAKER_00: So t terrible, the worst way to go ever.
• 53:14
  SPEAKER_00: We've we've covered these before.
• 53:16
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but the whole like the Catholic community, the public were were still in support of John Fisher, and there was this huge outcry from the public saying, you cannot do this to him, you can't charge him as a commoner, you can't draw and quarter him, like he's a holy man.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how dare you?
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_02: He had a huge following still.
• 53:35
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_00: And again, similar to his namesake, John the Baptist, they were saying, You can't do this, he can't be a uh uh, I guess, disgraced.
• 53:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like, you know, he's as as important as John the Baptist.
• 53:48
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do this to him.
• 53:49
  SPEAKER_00: So finally, sweet, lovely King Henry reduces his sentence and says, Okay, you'll just simply have a beheading at Tower Hill.
• 53:59
  SPEAKER_00: What a nice guy.
• 54:00
  SPEAKER_00: Such nice guy.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: It was June 22nd.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 54:05
  SPEAKER_02: I lost my nose.
• 54:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um Tower Hill.
• 54:08
  SPEAKER_02: We've discussed this several times as well.
• 54:11
  SPEAKER_02: But for anyone who's been to the Tower of London, um, our favorite place ever.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_02: Here, here.
• 54:17
  SPEAKER_02: So most executions did not take place inside of the Tower of London.
• 54:22
  SPEAKER_02: There was only about 10 actual executions inside the tower.
• 54:27
  SPEAKER_02: Most of the executions that the victim was walked out of the limits, um, out of the tower walls, and brought over to Tower Hill, which is now directly across from the KFC next to Tower of London.
• 54:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's beautiful.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's a beautiful spot.
• 54:43
  SPEAKER_02: And um, right now there is a beautiful memorial and a little garden there, and you can go and you can see their plaques and the actual place where Tower Hill was.
• 54:52
  SPEAKER_02: But this was the landmark spot where most like thousands of executions took place.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 54:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that is exactly where he was led out to and where he sadly lost his life that day.
• 55:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, they said he when he was walking up to the scaffold, uh, he was composed.
• 55:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 55:13
  SPEAKER_02: He was wearing very dirty clothes.
• 55:16
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, dirtyish clothes.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_00: And they said that he was reciting, I think it was Psalm 33 from the Bible.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_00: And uh again, extremely, extremely brave, composed, didn't really show a whole lot of emotion and just prayed until the very end.
• 55:31
  SPEAKER_02: The executioner tried to help him up because he was so weak.
• 55:35
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, he'd been in the Tower of London for over a year.
• 55:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and he was he politely declined his assistance, was like, no, I'm gonna do this on my own, and I don't want it to look in any way, is probably what he's thinking of like I'm trying to resist or they're trying to pull me up.
• 55:52
  SPEAKER_02: So he walked up completely on his own, despite being perhaps a little wobbly.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_00: And once he was officially beheaded, um, his body was stripped immediately of its clothing.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they left him naked.
• 56:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, they left him naked on the scaffold for the rest of the day, which I've never heard of before.
• 56:11
  SPEAKER_02: I haven't either.
• 56:12
  SPEAKER_02: And it wasn't meant to seen as like a form of disgrace, I'm assuming.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 56:17
  SPEAKER_02: But like he's gone at that point.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah.
• 56:20
  SPEAKER_00: And like we've heard of, you know, heads on spikes and all of that, which they did.
• 56:24
  SPEAKER_00: They uh threw his naked body in a shallow grave, and then they put his head on a spike in uh on the London Bridge, which we'll talk about in a second.
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, I've never really heard of them just leaving the body all day.
• 56:36
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's kind of odd.
• 56:38
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like they usually just take it away, like bury it quickly, or put it on a cart at least.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_00: To leave it on the scaffold is pretty gross.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_02: London Bridge is so different than London Bridge now.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 56:48
  SPEAKER_02: Because back in the 1500s, there was it was almost like a little mini city on the bridge.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's really hard to describe.
• 56:56
  SPEAKER_02: I highly recommend Googling it or finding images or going on YouTube and seeing some like AI creations because there are buildings built up, stacked up, multi-story buildings on London Bridge at this time.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_02: It was there all the way up until 1666 when the fires took it out in London.
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_00: Because it was some crazy fire hazard.
• 57:17
  SPEAKER_02: A little wonky.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was a little, it was a little uh shaky there with all the wood.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it started to go out too.
• 57:24
  SPEAKER_00: It didn't just go up, it went out.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_02: I just like picture the burrow from Harry Potter.
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 57:29
  SPEAKER_02: That's what it looked like.
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 57:31
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, but there was a lot of merchants, a lot of trading that happened here.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: People lived on it, people worked on it.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_02: It wasn't just a bridge that you cross over, it was a full-on freaking city.
• 57:42
  SPEAKER_02: So they intentionally would display the heads of the traders on, but it was uh definitely seen as a warning sign.
• 57:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um it was seen as, you know, uh, I think a lot of the commoners and a lot of the people who just lived in London, they hear of the stories of what's happening at the court and in the tower, and they know these big names.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: Like, of course, everyone has heard John Fisher just got executed and beheaded, right?
• 58:11
  SPEAKER_02: And now they're seeing his head.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 58:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so it turns it into like a something very real.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: Something creepy happened with his head.
• 58:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, witnesses say who pass this head every day that the head almost looked like it was getting fresher every day.
• 58:27
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, it's a head, it you know, the person's dead, so it's gonna decompose and look grosser every day.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: People were like, it's kind of miraculous, but this looks healthier every day.
• 58:38
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 58:39
  SPEAKER_02: It really started to cause a scene where people were believing more and more that he was of a holy nature and that's what was happening.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_02: It was a miracle.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 58:49
  SPEAKER_02: So eventually they tossed the head and they replaced it with Sir Thomas More's head because only like two weeks later.
• 58:56
  SPEAKER_02: He was executed in July, shortly after.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 59:00
  SPEAKER_02: And so it's kind of, I mean, ironic of like, it's just yeah, you know, head replacement things happening here.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh it they had very similar stories, uh, John Fisher and Thomas More, which I didn't really realize until I was researching for this episode.
• 59:18
  SPEAKER_00: For some reason, I always thought of John Fisher as like kind of the, I don't know, snooty old conservative man.
• 59:24
  SPEAKER_00: And like reading this, I'm like, oh, he was actually like, again, really dedicated to his faith and really committed to helping the needy and helping a cool guy.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, like helping his school education.
• 59:34
  SPEAKER_02: Thomas Moore was kind of a cool guy.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he had his faults.
• 59:37
  SPEAKER_02: Don't get me started.
• 59:38
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 59:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, he didn't like heretics.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_02: I get that.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: Get it.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_02: But they, I mean, I think that they had a little pack going on between the two of them.
• 59:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, there is currently still to this day, a church across the way from Tower Hill, right next to Tower of London, which I should have written down the name, and I know the name.
• 59:57
  SPEAKER_02: It's oh my gosh.
• 59:59
  SPEAKER_02: So I know this church because when I first went into it, I was so excited because it says it was the church of Sir Thomas More.
• 1:00:07
  SPEAKER_02: And both Thomas More and John Fisher were their remains, were eventually buried there.
• 1:00:14
  SPEAKER_02: I uh gave a small donation to this church.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, yeah.
• 1:00:18
  SPEAKER_02: It was intended to be like five dollars.
• 1:00:20
  SPEAKER_02: But then when I uh saw my credit card statement, I somehow gave them like$100, which you can't dispute that.
• 1:00:28
  SPEAKER_02: Like you can't go to a church and ask for a donation back.
• 1:00:31
  SPEAKER_02: Vic, I'm so sorry.
• 1:00:32
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't mean to pay you that much.
• 1:00:33
  SPEAKER_02: It was on like an iPad.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_02: It was like, you know, technology.
• 1:00:38
  SPEAKER_00: The iPad always gets you.
• 1:00:40
  SPEAKER_00: At least it wasn't worse than that.
• 1:00:41
  SPEAKER_00: You could have donated like$5,000.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_02: Or to like an establishment I don't agree with.
• 1:00:46
  SPEAKER_02: Like, you know, it went to a good cause.
• 1:00:48
  SPEAKER_02: Like the KFC.
• 1:00:50
  SPEAKER_02: The KFC next to it.
• 1:00:52
  SPEAKER_02: No, it's um, but it's still there today.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I'll I have like some plaques and things from in the church that are kind of cool, or like there's this little plaque that says, like, the mortal remains of Bishop John Fisher lie here on the front porch.
• 1:01:05
  SPEAKER_02: Like, literally, they use the front porch.
• 1:01:07
  SPEAKER_02: They use the or the entrance porch, they call it, I think.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, formal is kind of yeah, interesting.
• 1:01:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you should post some of those pictures.
• 1:01:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and we didn't mention this, but I think people that know who John Fisher is know that he was later canonized.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: So he officially became a Catholic martyr.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe the day that they honor him is on the same day that they also honor Thomas Moore.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_02: Which is May 15th.
• 1:01:32
  SPEAKER_00: No, May 19th.
• 1:01:33
  SPEAKER_00: Sorry, that's what I mean.
• 1:01:34
  SPEAKER_02: Because that's funny, that's the day of Anne Boleyn's execution.
• 1:01:37
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and it all comes full circle.
• 1:01:39
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that ironic because they were so anti-Anne Boleyn and yet they share like a special day of remembrance with her?
• 1:01:45
  SPEAKER_02: I didn't thought like that.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: I know.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but that's John Fisher.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: Most learned man in all of Europe.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: One of the most.
• 1:01:54
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, so there is a a Dutch theolog I'm not a theologist, thank you.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, and he had um a trying to find my page here.
• 1:02:04
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: Sorry.
• 1:02:05
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 1:02:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um, Erasmus, if you've ever heard of him.
• 1:02:08
  SPEAKER_02: I don't think that's how you say it.
• 1:02:10
  SPEAKER_02: How do you say it?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_02: Erasmus?
• 1:02:12
  SPEAKER_00: They said it on a documentary, but now you're making me question.
• 1:02:15
  SPEAKER_02: It was some weird AI voice, probably, who didn't have an actual accent.
• 1:02:19
  SPEAKER_00: Erasmus.
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: Dang it.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: Megan, I had it before this, and now you're like, I think it's Erasmus.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_02: Well, anyways, whatever this Dutch guy said.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_02: This is what he has to say about John Fisher.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: He is the one man at this time who is incomparable for uprightness of life, for learning, and for greatness of soul.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: Amazing.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: Beat that.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good one.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good legacy.
• 1:02:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, put that on your tombstone, Elizabeth.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: What are your final words?
• 1:02:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh man.
• 1:02:49
  SPEAKER_00: Megan, I think you have a great soul.