Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / The Nine's Sacred Desire | Why Your Wants Matter to God with Marilyn Vancil

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The Nine's Sacred Desire | Why Your Wants Matter to God with Marilyn Vancil · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
0:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, over the last three weeks, I am so excited to say that we have covered the gamut when it comes to the Enneagram 9.
1:00
SPEAKER_00: Today I am so honored to go really deep with an expert on the Enneagram who happens to also be an Enneagram 9, and she's going to talk about relationship with desire.
1:12
SPEAKER_00: So, Marilyn Vansel, thank you for being here on the podcast and being part of this conversation, this special series this year.
1:21
SPEAKER_00: You've spent decades, right, sending the Enneagram.
1:26
SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit about that.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: What was the first encounter?
1:30
SPEAKER_00: And did it make total sense to you or did it take a minute?
1:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, sure.
1:35
SPEAKER_01: And Amy, it's great to be with you and thank you for including me in this topic.
1:40
SPEAKER_01: You know, I know it well, and I love the Enneagram as well.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, so my first introduction to the Enneagram was 35 years ago, maybe way before it was, you know, out there with pop right as much popularity.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: And it was cassette tapes by Richard Rohr, and I didn't know who that was.
1:59
SPEAKER_01: And it was a weird title, and I didn't want to listen to, you know, Jeff, uh my husband Jeff was given this series of tapes, and I thought it was weird.
2:07
SPEAKER_01: And but then he talked me, Jeff listened first and talked me into listening.
2:13
SPEAKER_01: And when I listened to the nine after getting through all the types and thinking, no, no, no, no, no, not me, not me, not me.
2:21
SPEAKER_01: Then, oh, it was amazing.
2:25
SPEAKER_01: And yes, so I got it right away, and I at that time had to really search hard for any books.
2:32
SPEAKER_01: I had to go to bookstores actually, and organize.
2:36
SPEAKER_01: Yes, right.
2:37
SPEAKER_01: But the thing that caught me the most, and this taps into as I was thinking about this ahead of time about desire and why it's hard to for nines to know their desires, to express their desires, to follow their desires, to fulfill their desires, is this vague sense of self.
2:59
SPEAKER_01: When I read that, I went, nines have a vague sense of self.
3:03
SPEAKER_01: And I thought, I do.
3:05
SPEAKER_01: I I don't I so how do I even know what my desires are if I kind of don't even know who I am?
3:11
SPEAKER_01: Because I'm an extension of whoever else is around me and their expectations and their personalities and merging out there with everyone else and not really knowing what my desires are.
3:24
SPEAKER_01: They must be everybody else's desires.
3:26
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:27
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
3:28
SPEAKER_00: I'm curious.
3:29
SPEAKER_00: You said that in a way that I wonder was that part of the inspiration for your book, Self to Lose, Self to Find?
3:37
SPEAKER_00: Because it feels like it's a smattering of that idea.
3:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, very much.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: And it was part that title came in a moment of inspiration when I realized that Jesus said there's a self, he said, if you lose yourself, you'll find yourself.
3:56
SPEAKER_01: And I was just like, What?
3:58
SPEAKER_01: There's a in there's a self to lose.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: I got that.
4:02
SPEAKER_01: I knew that.
4:03
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes, in our Christian teaching of deny yourself, die to yourself, all that.
4:08
SPEAKER_01: But there's a self to find, and I was finding, you know, in a journey of just recognizing that I had a self that I needed to find that was buried underneath all the structure, self-protection, all the pattern, disordered desire of merging and not causing conflict and staying connected, not separated.
4:34
SPEAKER_01: Was all there was a self under there.
4:36
SPEAKER_01: And I wanted to felt inspired to claim that and to find it.
4:43
SPEAKER_01: So yes, very much claim that.
4:46
SPEAKER_00: I love that phrase because this is an element here, and how we're going to unpack this for maybe a friend who's listening to us the first time.
4:55
SPEAKER_00: We're going to unpack it under that gospel lens because this is really important.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: Our world, and even plenty of teachers out there in the Enneagram, are going to be proclaiming this self-define, but not under the lens of it being a transformation in Christ.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And so that's where we're going within this overall.
5:16
SPEAKER_00: That's what we're unpacking.
5:17
SPEAKER_00: I would love to hear in your language, Marilyn, but what's at the core of the struggle for a nine?
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Because we do all, no matter our type, have different struggles when it comes to desire.
5:30
SPEAKER_00: But what does it look like specifically for a nine?
5:33
SPEAKER_00: And why?
5:34
SPEAKER_00: Why, yeah.
5:35
SPEAKER_01: Well, at our deepest place, we want to be in union.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: We want harmony, we want peace.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: And ultimately, the only way to experience true union, everlasting union, is with God.
5:52
SPEAKER_01: And that's God's desire as well.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Jesus talked about in that in his prayer, I and you, and you and me, and that's the deep desire of a nine is for union.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: And then it gets distorted out to wanting union with everyone and no conflict and no separation.
6:13
SPEAKER_01: It feels when that happens, that separation happens with a sense of I'm separated from God, which is not true, but true, feels true.
6:24
SPEAKER_01: Right.
6:25
SPEAKER_01: And then separation from another, especially if I cause it, then oh, it's painful.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: It like rips at the core deep down.
6:35
SPEAKER_01: And there's just this sadness and grief and agony over having caused some separation because it's like ripping apart the part, the deepest desire of a nine spiritually.
6:50
SPEAKER_01: And then there's just the psychological part.
6:52
SPEAKER_01: It's painful.
6:54
SPEAKER_01: It's painful to feel that separation, to cause a separation, to create tension, to be dismissed is the worst thing in the world for nines, is to feel dismissed, insignificant, pushed to the side, all of those things.
7:11
SPEAKER_01: And so we want to avoid that because it's not what our deep longing is to be connected and in union.
7:19
SPEAKER_01: And so it creates this push-pull actually in relationships.
7:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so often.
7:27
SPEAKER_00: You talked about you use the word conflict or creating the separation.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: What other language or words would you use?
7:36
SPEAKER_00: Disruption is one I've heard a lot.
7:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
7:39
SPEAKER_00: Maybe uh a nine would feel uncertain about protesting.
7:45
SPEAKER_00: What are some other phrases that umbrella would cover that feeling or that general sense of action that maybe a nine would need to take or feels hesitant to take?
7:54
SPEAKER_01: Right.
7:55
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's a great, I love the word protest.
7:58
SPEAKER_01: Um, and disruption, none of which are comfortable.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: And so there's also this desire for comfort, ease, having everything just be smooth, not ruffled, keep smooth waters, and then to disrupt that is and protest.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: And thank you for that word protest, because I think of the nine as something people don't realize about nines and are surprised by it, and it creates an internal problem and sometimes an external problem, is their stubbornness.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Oh, yes.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: And I realized just recently, honestly, I'm still on this journey of transformation of who I am and what I am and what I am not.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: Are we all right?
8:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we should and we should be.
8:50
SPEAKER_01: Is I've always thought of that stubbornness as negative.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Like it's bad, it's wrong, I shouldn't be stubborn, but I realize when I'm feeling stubborn on inside, because it's all on the inside, it comes out later as pro it could be interpreted as protesting or standing up for myself, or comes out in a kind of an explosive eruption because it's been held in for so long.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: But it's a clue to me now, like, oh, you're hanging on because you're feeling like you're going to be dismissed, or you're disappearing, or you're not showing up.
9:30
SPEAKER_01: And so my internal self is saying, no, hang on to yourself, don't get lost.
9:37
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
9:37
SPEAKER_01: Be present, be grounded here in you.
9:40
SPEAKER_01: And you don't, then you don't have to blah, you know, kind of spew it out all over the place.
9:45
SPEAKER_01: It can be more from a grounded space and a confident space.
9:51
SPEAKER_01: So it really is a red flag to me, rather than a negative, oh, you're so stubborn.
9:57
SPEAKER_01: Don't be so stubborn, kind of a thing.
9:58
SPEAKER_00: I love that you brought that up.
10:00
SPEAKER_00: And for my friend who's listening, right before we jumped into the conversation, Marilyn was asking, okay, I haven't heard these other conversations.
10:08
SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
10:10
SPEAKER_00: Because there's potential for repeating.
10:13
SPEAKER_00: And what I love is that phrase, but for different reasons about the nine stubbornness has been part of the conversation.
10:21
SPEAKER_00: And thank you for sharing that because that's a piece of it, right?
10:25
SPEAKER_00: There's a double, like it's a double-sided coin.
10:28
SPEAKER_00: There's both sides to it.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you can use it as an indicator and you're saying pay attention doesn't mean necessarily dig in your heels in an obstinate way, but it does mean, hey, there's something here you need to note and maybe to share because it's important to you and it's valuable, and to act on it without apology.
10:54
unknown: Yeah.
10:54
SPEAKER_01: Um the other day I was asked to accommodate something, and I just said no.
11:02
SPEAKER_01: And it didn't feel like, oh no, how did you, you know, how dare you ask me that?
11:06
SPEAKER_01: I'm just gonna be stubborn.
11:08
SPEAKER_01: It's like, no, that's not gonna work.
11:10
SPEAKER_00: You just can't.
11:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
11:12
SPEAKER_01: And so it felt confident and it was true.
11:15
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
11:16
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
11:16
SPEAKER_01: That's a double-sided coin, is a good way to put it.
11:19
SPEAKER_01: Because it has a backside too.
11:21
SPEAKER_00: Oh, for sure.
11:22
SPEAKER_00: And yeah, that's the element of why the beauty of having spiritual direction and a coach to help you sift through those moments and understand where you lie, because any type tends to swing one direction or another in our vices and in our blind spots.
11:36
SPEAKER_00: And so this is why we have someone sit with us and help us and help us see correctly is this a place that I need to lean into in this direction or that direction?
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Because there is, and there's different stages and chapters of our life where maybe we're showing up this way or that way because we've overcorrupted, as we all have our tendencies to do.
11:59
unknown: Yeah.
12:00
SPEAKER_00: One of the things we haven't gotten to talk about yet are the subtypes about each type, specifically about the nine.
12:09
SPEAKER_00: I love getting into these deep waters.
12:12
SPEAKER_00: And to be fair, subtypes, that is like Enneagram 601, I usually call it.
12:17
SPEAKER_00: It happens usually near the end of the whole hearted journey.
12:21
SPEAKER_00: It's another layer.
12:22
SPEAKER_00: It provides some beautiful relational understanding in a really deep way, especially if you happen to know the relationship you're in, whether it's a spouse or child or even coworker, you have an indicator of what their subtype is.
12:39
SPEAKER_00: It's very helpful.
12:40
SPEAKER_00: Could you give us a little bit of understanding, even maybe in the viewpoint of desire, about how that might show up differently for the different subtypes?
12:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
12:51
SPEAKER_01: And I will admit I'm not an expert.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: I am at 6.0 on that because it's 20, 27 types to remember.
12:59
SPEAKER_01: And so I have to review, I know myself, my own type, my own subtype.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: But it is really important in relationship and understanding and often a place of conflict more than maybe the type difference, but the subtype difference, because they're survival strategies.
13:19
SPEAKER_01: And right.
13:21
SPEAKER_01: So get what we want.
13:23
SPEAKER_01: What we need and want to protect ourselves.
13:26
SPEAKER_01: And just the self-preservation nine in a Beatrice Chestnut's work is called appetite, which is you have to explore what that means because it's not just eating, eating, overeating or something, but it really is the longing for satisfaction, pleasure through comfort, through food, one, but other things that help the actual physical need of a person, the kind of those basic needs, and but in the same way, can be a place for a nine to be lost and to cover up the tension maybe going on inside and just eat or be alone, have appetite for concrete needs.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
14:09
SPEAKER_01: And still losing yourself in those distractions or those ways of satisfaction that really are not ultimately.
14:18
SPEAKER_01: Like just yesterday, our sermon at church was on the woman at the well, and that we all have our wells that we go to for our thirst.
14:30
SPEAKER_01: We have thirst, and we all have their wells, but they never satisfy in the long run, maybe temporarily.
14:36
SPEAKER_01: And so for the self-preservation, it's a temporary satisfaction, but not a long term met need by taking care of this the self.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
14:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:48
SPEAKER_00: And so that might even show up some of the uh I don't know, maybe the highlighted numbing habits that where a nine would find comfort in that might be a little bit more amplified in a self-presentine, probably that's the best word, or exaggerated, where their tendency to go to those behaviors to feel that sense of grounding even.
15:13
SPEAKER_00: And but they're often it can just quickly be finding trying to find that grounding in something that doesn't actually satisfy and doesn't give the grounding actually might contribute to the anxiety, especially if we're relating it to social media and doom scrolling, all those things.
15:30
SPEAKER_00: Yes, for sure.
15:31
SPEAKER_00: What else have and for you?
15:33
SPEAKER_00: I I didn't even ask, do you feel like you more align with the social nine, the sexual nine, the self-present?
15:40
SPEAKER_00: Has one of those stood out to you for you?
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, definitely the one-to-one sexual nine, for sure.
15:46
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
15:47
SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
15:48
SPEAKER_01: And so maybe I'll get to that last because I have to say right.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's great.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, tell us a little bit about the social nine.
15:56
SPEAKER_01: Well, the social nine, they want to merge with a larger group, a sense of belonging, like I have importance here.
16:04
SPEAKER_01: And so they will work very hard to sacrifice themselves to earn membership in the group.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: And it's this sense of I'll give up myself to establish my place in whatever group I want to be a part of.
16:20
SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
16:21
SPEAKER_01: The social, the kind of the underlying desire of any social subtype is if the tribe or the group is doing well, then I'm doing well.
16:31
SPEAKER_01: Like the identification with the group.
16:33
SPEAKER_01: So I will do all I can to make the group better and make the group good.
16:38
SPEAKER_01: And so a nine will will fall into that.
16:41
SPEAKER_01: Social nine will fall into that being sacrificing and giving up their own needs to accommodate whatever the group needs and wants, or what the at least what they perceive brings that sense of belonging.
16:57
SPEAKER_00: I would see that the social nine would maybe look a little bit like a four or even a two, in particular with being very group focused and the belonging and even finding their you know, if they're they support, they belong.
17:12
SPEAKER_00: So that's an interesting thing to note where it could look that could add to the mistyping journey.
17:17
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for sure.
17:18
SPEAKER_01: And it is the countertype.
17:19
SPEAKER_01: It doesn't look the social nine doesn't look quite stereotypical as a nine because they tend to be involved and focused and getting things done and out there and with more extroverted.
17:34
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, not that all nine are necessarily introverted, but they appear more strong and focused.
17:41
SPEAKER_01: Energetic.
17:42
SPEAKER_00: Well, that's been my experience for sure.
17:44
SPEAKER_00: With some social nines ongoing, are you sure you're nine?
17:47
SPEAKER_00: Right.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:49
SPEAKER_01: For sure.
17:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
17:51
SPEAKER_01: But still losing self.
17:53
SPEAKER_01: Losing self.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: For the sake of the group.
17:56
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
17:57
SPEAKER_00: Very insightful.
17:58
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
17:59
SPEAKER_00: You talked about the sexual nine also being called the one-to-one nine.
18:03
SPEAKER_00: It depends what circles you are in.
18:06
SPEAKER_00: I do tend to use the phrase one-to-one, but it gets confusing and for different reasons, ultimately because sexual immediately puts an overlay, an assumption of what we're talking about.
18:19
SPEAKER_00: It does denote some of that truth, but it's not the full story.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: So tell us a little bit more about the sexual or one-to-one nine.
18:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, and the again, the basic, at least as I understand it, of the sexual one-to-one subtype and all the types, is that the one-to-one connection creates something new.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: You think about um just the propagation of our society is that we need two people to be intimately connected to create something new.
18:52
SPEAKER_01: And so it doesn't have to be sexual, we create a new human, but what do we, the two of our connection, create in the world, create something new, create something vibrant?
19:05
SPEAKER_01: And so I love that idea.
19:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:08
SPEAKER_01: The first time I heard the septic, I went, oh my gosh, that's why I will create a project around the house that my husband and I have to do together because we're on a shared mission and creating something new.
19:24
SPEAKER_01: And it really is like sex.
19:27
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's sexy for me to do that.
19:31
SPEAKER_01: It's wonderful, it's exhilarating.
19:33
SPEAKER_01: And the problem is sometimes is that he just puts his earbuds in is listening to something, and it feels like, but come on, we're supposed to be doing this together, you know.
19:45
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: Oh my goodness.
19:47
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
19:48
SPEAKER_01: So really, just recently, uh, Amy, I it, you know, with a little bit of conflict, something was happening, and I had expressed myself pretty strongly and in our relationship about something.
20:03
SPEAKER_01: And the response I got wasn't what I wanted.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: And actually, I was preparing for an Enneagram workshop and I was completely lost in my own story.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: But I said to myself as I was sitting, I said, I just want to merge.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: And I started to cry.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: And then I had this image or this experience of me being, when I said that, of me being pulled out of myself like a mirage, like a vapor.
20:35
SPEAKER_01: And I went, whoa, what was that?
20:37
SPEAKER_01: I don't always have those kinds of spiritual moments, but it was very poignant that I was pulled out of myself.
20:44
SPEAKER_01: And then I got out Beatrice Chesnook's book, and the people I was going to wanted to know about subtypes.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: So I was reading about the one-to-one nine, and she mentioned the word mirage.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: They have to be careful that you'll get pulled out of yourself and become a vapor.
21:00
SPEAKER_01: And I went, there's that vague sense of self that I let myself get pulled and I invite it, but I also hate it because I'm losing myself.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: And then I realize I want to merge, but I don't want to merge with him.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: I want him to merge with me.
21:19
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: And become what I want, not that I want to become, you know.
21:23
SPEAKER_01: And so it was this really fascinating moment for me to realize how that is a distorted desire of nines to merge.
21:36
SPEAKER_01: It's not a healthy desire to merge.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: It's different than being in partnership, being interrelated, both being, you know, our ourselves, but in kin relationship, but to merge, you know, kind of lose myself in the other, especially if it's a stronger personality, that I can just ride the coattails.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
22:01
SPEAKER_01: You know, yeah.
22:02
SPEAKER_01: But I'm really mad about it on the inside.
22:04
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
22:05
SPEAKER_01: So that stubbornness doing Yeah.
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Or feeling in unimportant or unim yeah that I don't matter.
22:12
SPEAKER_01: So it's been just recently a pretty strong journey for myself.
22:17
SPEAKER_01: Very transparent.
22:18
SPEAKER_00: So insightful.
22:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
22:20
SPEAKER_00: What a beautiful picture.
22:21
SPEAKER_00: The Mirage.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: I because I'm married to a nine, I have definitely done some work around the nine subtypes, not only teaching it, but that Mirage illustration, how profound that here you have that spiritual experience, and then you read it and you go, yeah, because the vapor, that element where that's that's the thing.
22:45
SPEAKER_00: There's beauty in merging with God's desires, but when we are not holding the container that God gave us to contain, because it's the beautiful gift that anyone is meant to offer.
22:59
SPEAKER_00: But as we talk about nines, and then if you're losing that and you and you're just it's empty instead of filled with how the Lord intended.
23:07
SPEAKER_00: Again, I just love that you indicate how you're still doing the work.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: This is what I keep inviting everyone to, and my coaches, and no matter how many years that you've done this, and no matter, you know, how and this is our walk in Christ until we're with Jesus face to face.
23:22
SPEAKER_00: There is still work to be done.
23:26
SPEAKER_01: To receive those as invitations from God to say, I want you to grow a little deeper in this and to be aware of this.
23:34
SPEAKER_01: It was a really moment for me just recently.
23:39
SPEAKER_00: I'm interested to hear a little bit about maybe uh in my work where nines have struggled to believe that their desires even matter to God.
23:50
SPEAKER_00: And that isn't a universal question at large, but I think a unique struggle for a nine.
23:57
SPEAKER_00: Tell us a little bit about that.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: And maybe you have a story too.
24:02
SPEAKER_00: But just give us some insight.
24:05
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that is such a great question.
24:07
SPEAKER_01: And it's just a place for discernment.
24:09
SPEAKER_01: And say, is this God's desire or is this my desire?
24:13
SPEAKER_01: Is this and is it and we can, I mean, that whole Christian, I think, distorted message to die to yourself, deny yourself.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: I mean, we do that and with great ease.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: Or, you know, uh it just, but then it feels like that stubbornness comes back in again, and even surrendering to God is difficult.
24:41
SPEAKER_01: Another story I had was praying for kind of direction and God's will and struggling with being part of someone else's agenda and their plan and their work, and I wasn't feeling like, well, this isn't really me, but thinking it should be me and what I should be about.
25:00
SPEAKER_01: And I realized surrendering to God, if I don't trust that his plans for me are good, it feels like I have to, that God's agenda is going to override mine and I will become nothing.
25:16
SPEAKER_01: Like, but I'm, you know, that feeling of if God's, if I trust, if I believe God's agenda is not for me, then I'm afraid of it because it feels like I'll be just uh negligible, you know.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: So why would I surrender to that rather than surrendering to God with the belief that God wants my wholeness, he wants my health, he created me, I'm his treasured daughter, and that he has something for me to do in the world as me, as a whole, healthy self, wholehearted self.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: That I that surrendering to God is only more union with God and more partnership with God and more sense of God and I are in this together, not oh, okay, it's God's agenda, not mine.
26:10
SPEAKER_01: You know, that whole miss, miss, miss stated statement by John the Baptist, he must increase, I must decrease, was only John the Baptist saying, gee, look at Jesus, you know, it's not me.
26:26
SPEAKER_01: I'm not the savior.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: Jesus is.
26:28
SPEAKER_01: It didn't mean I should decrease.
26:31
SPEAKER_01: Jesus never treated people like that, ever.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
26:34
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
26:35
SPEAKER_01: He never made them less, he made them more.
26:38
SPEAKER_01: And believing that that's what God wants for me, instead of that my desires are in conflict with God's desires.
26:45
SPEAKER_01: So I can't say yes to them.
26:47
SPEAKER_01: I don't know if that answers your question, but I think it's it's a tricky, I mean, it is a if you just believe you're supposed to deny yourself and die, then that you're you kind of become nothing and then there's resentment.
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, right wait a minute.
27:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
27:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
27:07
SPEAKER_00: I I love that because it is an exercise of discernment at I think every day, right?
27:12
SPEAKER_00: We're giving, surrendering ourselves every day, asking to be filled with the Holy Spirit with the idea of that as the spirit increases in us and as we surrender desire, I I think those they they come into union.
27:27
SPEAKER_00: And instead of unhealthy merging, or like you said, this vapor and mirage and losing ourselves to the point, but instead it's in union with his desires and we're wanting what he wants, which is a constant prayer and a constant myth.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Because we are human and we're prone to selfishness, right?
27:44
SPEAKER_00: We're prone to unhealthy desires, and ultimately it is in conflict with the word of God.
27:50
SPEAKER_00: Okay, if it's not, then let's keep going through here.
27:53
SPEAKER_01: And also let the peace of God rule in your hearts, which we want as nines.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean peace, but rule means let him call, let that rule, it's like an umpire, you know.
28:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's good.
28:08
SPEAKER_01: God call the shots, but we have a sense, there's a sense of peace about it.
28:12
SPEAKER_01: If I'm striving and pushing and demanding and unloving, you can tell the difference within.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: Is there internal peace in the external way we're presenting ourselves, or is it a rebellion or a fight or resistance?
28:28
SPEAKER_00: As you're saying that, I'm thinking about your comment about stubbornness, because oftentimes as women wrestling or you know, we're talking through wrestling through a distant decision, discerning, you know, is this God's will or not?
28:41
SPEAKER_00: And again, we first first check is is it against what the word of God says?
28:45
SPEAKER_00: Okay, no, it's not.
28:46
SPEAKER_00: So it's it's good.
28:47
SPEAKER_00: But as you go along, I really think sometimes women like us are really hard on ourselves because if we're praying about it and we're surrendering and looking to honor the Lord in our decisions, well, chances are even if we're on the wrong path or made a wrong decision, if we're not too stubborn to go back to that word, and if we're willing to be corrected, God will gently nudge us.
29:14
SPEAKER_00: There's no shame, there's no condemnation.
29:17
SPEAKER_00: It's just uh, hey, listen, okay, you're you're getting close.
29:20
SPEAKER_00: Let's just get some alignment here, realignment and all of that.
29:26
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: So and I think as we mature in Christ and long to follow Jesus with our whole heart, mind, soul, and strength, then I think sometimes God just says whatever you want.
29:41
SPEAKER_01: Yes, I agree.
29:42
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
29:43
SPEAKER_01: Have fun.
29:44
SPEAKER_01: Do it.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Do it.
29:45
SPEAKER_01: Do you know is there one will of God?
29:49
SPEAKER_01: I don't think so.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: He wants He wills for us to be live the uh live in abundance and with joy and all the good things from the Holy Spirit that we can enjoy.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: And he says, hey, if you want to do that, go do it.
30:05
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
30:06
SPEAKER_01: That's right.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:07
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times that's right.
30:09
SPEAKER_00: A lot of times we're tying our expectation or what we think the outcome should be as the matrix if we got it right or not, when God's going, it had kind of a whole different purpose than that outcome you're tied to in this process.
30:23
SPEAKER_00: So I tend to learn that the hard way.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: So don't have them, we all.
30:27
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
30:28
SPEAKER_00: Yes, yes.
30:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
30:30
SPEAKER_00: Two things that I want to talk about is a little bit more one, uh, to talk to the nine about their desires, but then to turn it a little bit to a friend who maybe is listening who's not a nine, but loves a nine, maybe their spouse is a nine, or just someone that they would like to serve.
30:46
SPEAKER_00: So, so first off, we kind of wrap up either um maybe a last thing you would wish a nine understood about their desires or about the topic in general that we haven't yet covered.
30:58
SPEAKER_00: Right.
30:59
SPEAKER_00: I know there's much to say.
31:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, we could go on and on, couldn't we, Amy?
31:02
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
31:03
SPEAKER_01: For a long time.
31:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, of course, the the kind of the catchphrase that you hear that nine long to hear is you matter, that you do matter.
31:14
SPEAKER_01: And that's true, you know, that you do have a place in the world.
31:18
SPEAKER_01: I remember listening to a podcast or a before podcast, but uh video.
31:25
SPEAKER_01: Something, yeah, right with Russ Hudson and Richard Rohr.
31:30
SPEAKER_01: They were and they went around to the nine, and he said, Russ Hudson said, Nines, we need you to show up in the world.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: We need who you are.
31:41
SPEAKER_01: Engage.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Don't be afraid to engage and show up in the world because what you bring is what this world needs: this gift of mediation, the gift of seeing everybody's size and you know, being able to move forward in a place of peacemaking, peace and decisions that are collaborative and all that is so important.
32:03
SPEAKER_01: It may feel really like it's not a big deal, but it really is a big deal.
32:07
SPEAKER_01: The gifts we bring are a big deal.
32:10
SPEAKER_01: And to not be afraid to engage and to show up and to extra and but to become whole within yourself and not get pulled out, and to pay attention to when that's happening and say, no, I am here in this container, and as me, it's important for myself and in the world, and looking for that integration of inner peace and outer peace.
32:34
SPEAKER_01: It's good that there's not this then an internal conflict going on because that's hard to do it too.
32:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh well said, and that is what I've hoped to capture in each of these conversations from all the unique angles is that wholehearted transformation journey is about taking the broken pieces and the fragmented self and integrating and healing and forming never perfect, but more whole and true and centered around the Lord.
33:06
SPEAKER_00: And with that, I think we can begin to trust our desires more and more.
33:09
SPEAKER_00: I've seen the fruit of that.
33:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and certainly in your life.
33:12
SPEAKER_00: So okay.
33:14
SPEAKER_00: Well, as we finish up here, how about those of us who love a nine?
33:18
SPEAKER_00: I I have several in my life.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: How can I help or support their confidence in their desires or pursuing or even making them feel safe to share them?
33:30
SPEAKER_00: Right.
33:30
SPEAKER_01: Oh, that's such a great question.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: And it's so important.
33:34
SPEAKER_01: And the first thing I thought of was patience.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: Give them time because us nines have a hard time even figuring out what we want.
33:45
SPEAKER_01: And to not just rush the process, but let us struggle a little bit and honor the patience that that it might take from the other person instead of, okay, decide.
33:58
SPEAKER_01: What do you want?
33:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh nines will go blank in the face.
34:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't know.
34:03
SPEAKER_01: Let me think about it.
34:04
SPEAKER_01: It's a journey to even identify that.
34:07
SPEAKER_01: The other thing I would say is to allow for those eruptions that come out of a place of, I don't know how to say this, but I've been thinking about it and I just and it comes out maybe sideways and wrong, but to know beneath that is something else.
34:24
SPEAKER_01: It's not just trying to be mad or create a conflict, it's saying, ah, help me understand what's going on underneath that eruption instead of dismissing that eruption as you shouldn't have said it that way or you that was wrong of you, because we already feel that.
34:41
SPEAKER_01: We already go, oh gosh, I shouldn't have, I oh, I caused a problem instead of going underneath is something else, and to probe for that, to be curious, say, oh, what was that about?
34:53
SPEAKER_01: Where did what was that, where was that coming from instead of discussing and to really hear, just to listen and hear and honor, especially if a desire is in conflict, not conflict, but different than the other person's desire, to leave space for that and have a discussion rather than it's yours or mine.
35:16
SPEAKER_01: That's it.
35:17
SPEAKER_01: And the nine will capitulate to the other so fast.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: And the other thing I thought about was when us nines choose our path of desire to not lace it with, well, that's really hard for me that you're doing that.
35:34
SPEAKER_01: You know, the other person saying, Oh, you becoming your true self is hard for me.
35:40
SPEAKER_01: It's like, well, don't make it hard for you, make it glorious for you.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm so I'm so glad you're becoming you're choosing your own path and and instead of laying on sort of a resistance to change.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: Um the guilt or yeah, or the don't make I don't want to make anybody feel bad.
36:00
SPEAKER_01: That's like my worst nightmare is that I've created, I've made somebody feel bad because I'm choosing something different than them.
36:08
SPEAKER_01: So it could that can be a real hard place.
36:12
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
36:13
SPEAKER_00: To walk tenderly.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: Uh because that's that's just a it's it was a big deal to share it to begin with.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
36:21
SPEAKER_00: And as we've talked again in these conversations with other beautiful nines, this that give and take because every relationship is about some element of compromise, especially like you said, the decision.
36:34
SPEAKER_00: How can we make that outreach and without totally dismissing?
36:39
SPEAKER_00: And also for the other type, depending on totally abdicating their desires as well.
36:44
SPEAKER_00: How do we come to this place of moving together?
36:48
SPEAKER_00: Let's see how we can make this work.
36:50
SPEAKER_00: Let's stay in that posture of curiosity and holding both at the same time instead of it the either or sometimes that we all slip into.
36:59
SPEAKER_00: Right.
36:59
SPEAKER_01: And for nines, I mean, sometimes I can be, oh well, whatever you want.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: And then we choose that.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And the whole time I'm feeling like, is oh, like a restaurant, even a restaurant, like, oh, do they hate this food?
37:11
SPEAKER_01: Are they okay?
37:12
SPEAKER_01: Because they chose my choice.
37:14
SPEAKER_01: And then I feel so responsible that everybody's happy with it.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: Just saying, oh, that's a great idea.
37:20
SPEAKER_01: I'd love to go have that kind of food too, instead of, well, whatever you want.
37:24
SPEAKER_01: And then I left with the responsibility of making sure it was the right made everybody happy.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: So it's a, you know, it's a tricky for sure.
37:35
SPEAKER_00: And so celebrating, and I think that's a really good thing to be cognizant of celebrating the decision of, oh, I thank you for sharing that.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: I'm so glad that we did that.
37:46
SPEAKER_00: And and oh, I mean, I've certainly when I'm dealing with a nine in my life, and they've expressed it after asking them, like, great, awesome.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: That sounds so good.
37:57
SPEAKER_00: If you're if that's really what you want, awesome, let's do that.
38:00
SPEAKER_00: And celebrating and affirming, and well, also clarifying, that's what you really want.
38:04
SPEAKER_00: Right.
38:05
unknown: Yeah.
38:06
SPEAKER_00: You didn't choose it because you thought that's what I wanted.
38:09
SPEAKER_00: Right, right.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:10
SPEAKER_00: The beautiful layers of the nine.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: And Marilyn, I definitely want to just tout your books really quick.
38:16
SPEAKER_00: Self-to-lose, self-define, and beyond the Enneagram, these are two.
38:21
SPEAKER_00: I know this is the OG cover because right?
38:24
SPEAKER_00: There's a new new version.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
38:26
SPEAKER_00: New version, yes.
38:28
SPEAKER_00: And I know that Marilyn's been so primed to even allow us to use her symbol, integrated symbol, and the coaching work.
38:35
SPEAKER_00: They are just rich, rich resources, not just for nines, but for all the types.
38:40
SPEAKER_00: And for those who really want to understand how to use the Enneagram in real life, I think it's a beautiful from a spiritual perspective.
38:47
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, this conversation, of course, has been lovely.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: It's been so rich.
38:53
SPEAKER_00: Never, never disappointed.
38:56
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for just giving some voice about the nines journey to desire.
39:00
SPEAKER_00: And it's beautiful and it's sacred, and God delights in the participation of this exploration and ultimately using their voice as a gift, and you using your voice as a gift has blessed so blessed so many.
39:15
SPEAKER_00: So anyway, nines, for those who are hearing, we want you to hear your desires matter.
39:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
39:21
SPEAKER_01: So knocking and probe them.
39:23
SPEAKER_01: You know, you may not know right away, but pay attention and to do the journey of just even defining, telling, describing what your desires are.
39:34
SPEAKER_01: They might be details like a desire to move someplace or I desire to go out to dinner here, but it's there's deeper desires too that really the underlying current that are important to name.
39:46
SPEAKER_01: That's good.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: I'm excited to be able to have finished the Enneagram 9 conversation for now, for this year, so to speak.
39:54
SPEAKER_00: And next month, uh, we're diving right into the Enneagram 8.
39:59
SPEAKER_00: It's gonna be so rich.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: And all of this.
40:01
SPEAKER_00: And just a little note to my friend who's listening that the wholehearted Enneagram book releases in April.
40:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, good.
40:10
SPEAKER_00: It's going to be, I know, I'm so excited.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: Each chapter, I used a fictional story to help the reader really immerse themselves.
40:19
SPEAKER_00: And I had such a blast writing it.
40:22
SPEAKER_00: I cannot wait to do it again.
40:23
SPEAKER_00: I have some big ideas perkling over here, Enneagram Self.
40:27
SPEAKER_00: Seven self.
40:29
SPEAKER_00: But Marilyn thinks they can.
40:30
SPEAKER_01: Congratulations on doing a book.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: I know it's hard work.
40:33
SPEAKER_01: Yes, you do know.
40:35
SPEAKER_01: I do know.
40:36
SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you, Amy, for inviting me to join you.
40:38
SPEAKER_01: And it's fun to just talk about these beautiful lines.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: It is.
40:43
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.
40:44
SPEAKER_01: Bless you.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: Blessings to you two, Amy.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
40:56
SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
41:01
SPEAKER_00: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
41:13
SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your stuff point.