Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Kato Kaelin: Key Witness in OJ Simpson Trial & America's Most Infamous "Houseguest"

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Kato Kaelin: Key Witness in OJ Simpson Trial & America's Most Infamous "Houseguest" · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Okay, welcome everybody
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: back to Misunderstood. I'm Rachel. You could tell my next
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: guest really needs no introduction. Kato Kaelin. He is the
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: world's most famous house guest who became a household name
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: during the O.J. Simpson trial when he was the star
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: witness for the prosecution. Today, we are here to talk
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  Speaker 1: about that with him, but more importantly, to talk about
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: the person behind the headlines. So Kato, thank you so
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: much for joining me. I'm so happy you're here.
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  Speaker 2: Well, Rachel, you're gorgeous. Thanks for having me.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm so happy to say that I, I do
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: own my own couch.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Well, you know, what's funny. It's amazing. So, but my
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: biggest question that I have for you is, do you
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: have a guest house yet that somebody else lives in?
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  Speaker 2: That is the goal I have.
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  Speaker 3: But I do have, I have like probably three months
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  Speaker 3: more of my payments and I own.
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  Speaker 2: My own house.
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  Speaker 3: So how dumb would that be for me to actually
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  Speaker 3: live in the guest house and not in the main house?
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  Speaker 2: There we go. Kata, what are you doing? Move into
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  Speaker 2: the main house.
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  Speaker 1: But one day you have to have a guest in
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  Speaker 1: the guest house.
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  Speaker 2: 100%.
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  Speaker 3: I travel so often and that's what everybody pretty much says.
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  Speaker 3: That's like, people will offer me to stay at their
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: house or their guest house constantly. Please be our guest
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: house for the weekend. I thought, boy, this might be
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: a really good job. It's just to go to places
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: and live in their homes. Because people just want me
• 2:49
  Speaker 3: on their phone machines. And now people have this company
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: called Cameo. And now it's like all these things I
• 2:55
  Speaker 3: thought of that other people became billionaires. I said, how
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: great would that be, the crash? And by the way,
• 3:01
  Speaker 3: I've been invited this week. All these people always ask
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: me to be in their weddings.
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  Speaker 2: I don't know them.
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  Speaker 3: But for some reason, people come up to me and
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  Speaker 3: they feel like they know me. And maybe they feel
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: the same way about you. I just, they all feel
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  Speaker 3: like they know me, which of course they don't, but they,
• 3:16
  Speaker 3: but they're always smiling and they laugh.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: So it's a good sign. Right.
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  Speaker 1: Well, so, but you're so beloved actually. I mean, I
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: feel like you did get, you had a very hard
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: time during the trial and we'll get into that in
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: a minute, but I feel like your personality really stands
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: out and people can't help but love you. So what
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: do you think is the most misunderstood thing about Cato Kaelin?
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: The thing that people think they know?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I think part of it was back then, the
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  Speaker 3: court of public opinion already made their verdict on me
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  Speaker 3: of being an airhead, someone that didn't work, a pariah,
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  Speaker 3: an assassin's target. I had all these things going against me.
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  Speaker 3: And I said, oh, my God. And I started thinking
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  Speaker 3: about my.
• 4:00
  Speaker 2: Life and go, I was the high school quarterback. I
• 4:02
  Speaker 2: was the prom king.
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  Speaker 3: And I never had people not like me. And I
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  Speaker 3: was like, I never felt it before. And it made
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  Speaker 3: me very introverted.
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  Speaker 2: And I just.
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  Speaker 3: It never, ever stopped working, always hustling. So I think
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  Speaker 3: when the media portrays you as a lie, that really
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  Speaker 3: affects you. But I think it affected my late mom
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  Speaker 3: more than it affected me and my family because.
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  Speaker 2: They knew who I was.
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  Speaker 3: And I'm just, it was this guy from Wisconsin that
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  Speaker 3: came out from my dream to go to California to
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  Speaker 3: get in acting.
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  Speaker 2: And so I've always stuck true to those goals.
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  Speaker 3: Even today, I hustle with so many shows and I
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: sold the show and all my dreams are coming true.
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  Speaker 3: It took forever, but- I think you've got to understand
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  Speaker 3: that people, sometimes people just don't want to like you
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  Speaker 3: or they just want to, especially in LA, they just
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  Speaker 3: don't want people to achieve and especially achieve greatness. And
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  Speaker 3: I just want to achieve partial greatness. And that's the
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  Speaker 3: hardest part, Rachel, is that people make judgments and.
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  Speaker 2: They shouldn't, you know.
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  Speaker 1: Well, they make judgments based on the narrative that you're
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  Speaker 1: given by the media or by the circumstance. And that
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  Speaker 1: doesn't actually have anything to do with who you are
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  Speaker 1: and where you come from. So I actually want to
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  Speaker 1: get into that a little bit with you. Tell people
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: where you came from. You said you're from Wisconsin. What
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  Speaker 1: did you want to do when you grew up? Like,
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  Speaker 1: how did you get to LA?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I basically was, I was pretty decent in sports
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  Speaker 3: and I played baseball and I got a partial scholarship
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  Speaker 3: to Wisconsin, Eau Claire, the big baseball.
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  Speaker 2: And I was pretty decent. I said, you know what?
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  Speaker 3: I want to move to California and go to this
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  Speaker 3: school called Cal State Fullerton. That was the number one
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  Speaker 3: baseball school. My buddy and I drove out left my
• 5:46
  Speaker 3: family and I just said, I'm going to California. And
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  Speaker 3: they said, you'll be back in three months. Anyways, we
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  Speaker 3: get to Cal State Fullerton and I try out, I
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  Speaker 3: went out for the team and these guys were gigantic.
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  Speaker 3: And I didn't, Rachel, I didn't get whiskers until I
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  Speaker 3: was 38 years old. So I wasn't developed yet, but
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  Speaker 3: I was really wiry. So I could throw pretty quick.
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  Speaker 3: But I said, I can't make this team.
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  Speaker 2: I'm not going to make it.
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  Speaker 3: So I started getting into plays and hosting events and
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  Speaker 3: And I said, back at Wisconsin, Eau Claire, I had
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  Speaker 3: my own TV show called Kato and Friends.
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  Speaker 2: I said, you know what? I could do this. I
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  Speaker 2: could probably get a show.
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  Speaker 3: And my very first audition ever when I moved to
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  Speaker 3: LA was a Coke commercial.
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  Speaker 2: And I got it. And I said, this is kind
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  Speaker 2: of easy. Unfortunately, when I did the commercial, I shot it,
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  Speaker 2: got my SAG card. But they cut me out of
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  Speaker 2: the commercial. And then I got another one and another one.
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  Speaker 3: Three consecutive commercials I got, which back then would have
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  Speaker 3: been like, $ 300, 000. I got cut out of all three.
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  Speaker 3: And I said, this is a tough business. But I
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  Speaker 3: stuck with it. So then I said, you know what?
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  Speaker 3: I'm just going to pursue this goal when I start
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  Speaker 3: getting bit parts. And I've said this on other podcasts
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  Speaker 3: and other shows. The week Before the murders happened, I
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: went to an academy for acting. But the week before
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  Speaker 3: the murders happened, I tested for a film. And my
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  Speaker 3: friend produced a film.
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  Speaker 2: He gave me the script three months in advance.
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  Speaker 3: And this is a buddy of mine. He worked for
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  Speaker 3: New Line Cinema. So I had a life before. I
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  Speaker 3: did auditions all the time. I went to film premieres.
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  Speaker 3: But no one knew Cato yet. But I did everything,
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  Speaker 3: did red carpets. So I tested for a film called
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  Speaker 3: Dumb and Dumber. And it was my buddy Aaron Meyerson
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  Speaker 3: who produced the film. And I was reading for the
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  Speaker 3: Jeff Daniels Road. My hair was long.
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  Speaker 2: If you remember Jeff Daniels, what's his name? Lloyd. It
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  Speaker 2: was Harry and Lloyd.
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  Speaker 3: So anyways, Rick Montgomery casted it, and I read for
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  Speaker 3: other parts. And I said, oh, my God, I'm getting
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  Speaker 3: really close to my goal. I'm getting really good castings.
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  Speaker 3: And the murder happened. My whole life was shut down.
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  Speaker 3: I sort of became a caricature after I testified.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But before you became famous for being Kato Kaelin, you
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  Speaker 1: were a struggling actor then. But was this based on
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  Speaker 1: something you really wanted to do? You're like, I really
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  Speaker 1: want to be an actor. Or you just had this personality,
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  Speaker 1: which you still have now, which is so great. And
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  Speaker 1: people really liked you and you're great looking. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: I Googled you. Are you 64 years old?
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  Speaker 2: I am.
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  Speaker 1: You look like you're 40. I mean, you look amazing.
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  Speaker 1: How do you do that?
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  Speaker 2: Rachel.
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  Speaker 1: That's a whole other podcast on anti-aging, but still.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I don't have the money, obviously. I can't
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  Speaker 3: do nothing. I've never done any of that. Basically, even
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  Speaker 3: back in the day, in 1989 and 90, and.
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  Speaker 2: By the way, when I was doing that, I was
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  Speaker 2: also hosting car shows.
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  Speaker 3: So I've always been a host and making, you know,
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  Speaker 3: and that was a Screen Actors Guild job because I
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  Speaker 3: got it through my old agent, Sheila Manning.
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  Speaker 2: So I started doing all these things, but I always... juiced.
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  Speaker 3: I've never not had a juice machine.
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  Speaker 2: It's amazing.
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  Speaker 3: I did everything before it became trends. I used to
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  Speaker 3: eat rice cakes. They used to be 25 cents. That's
• 8:57
  Speaker 3: the truth.
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  Speaker 2: I said, oh, these are pretty good with salt and
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: the sesame seeds. I ate all these things and I.
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  Speaker 3: Maybe it's fortunate if I drink anything, I'm not a
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: big drinker because when I get a drink or two
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  Speaker 3: in me, I get an incredible migraine. So I never,
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: I never really had that in my body. And it
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: just was always fun. Everybody goes, get drunk. You're drunk,
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: aren't you? I go, no, it's just the way I am.
• 9:21
  Speaker 3: So it's, it's funny that I never did all the
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: things when I went to college that everybody was doing.
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: And I'm the hindsight. I'm glad I didn't, but I, so,
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: but that's, I appreciate you saying that.
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  Speaker 2: And, um, Well, you had.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Such boyish looks and you still do, is the point. So, okay.
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  Speaker 1: But you didn't necessarily want to be this big actor
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: or you found that when you got to L.A.? That
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: you could be in acting parts and it could be
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: really fun. I mean, did you fall in love with
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: it there?
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, completely.
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, like I said, I got my first audition.
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: I was like, well, this is kind of easy. But
• 9:55
  Speaker 3: then again, I did all kinds of side jobs from
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: a limo driver to waitress. to bartender to singing telegrams.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: I think people don't understand it's a struggle, but I
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: never really complained because the whole time I was doing it,
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: I was having fun. And I just knew from the
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: friends that I have still in my life, I knew
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: something wonderful.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't know what it was going to be. And
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  Speaker 2: this is the God's honest truth.
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: I'm not getting religious, but I think there's like a
• 10:25
  Speaker 3: blueprint in everybody's life. And God said, you're going to
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: be famous, but it's going to be backwards. So I
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: became famous, and I understand it for the wrong reasons,
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: for a terrible thing with two beautiful young people losing
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: their lives.
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  Speaker 2: And, you know, everything went backwards.
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  Speaker 5: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 10:50
  Speaker 5: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 10:55
  Speaker 5: before bed. Or two, you know, nobody's watching. You deserve
• 11:02
  Speaker 5: a treat.
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: I became famous for something horrendous that I'm aware of.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: And I said, no matter what, I'm going to always
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: bring light to anything I do. And I feel like
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: I always have brought it light. I've always paid it forward.
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: just because my late parents were, I never saw my
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: mom and dad when they fought. I never saw them
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: not kiss. So I never saw like fighting in my
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: life growing up in Wisconsin. I always saw love. And
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: I know it sounds really corny, but it's so true.
• 11:43
  Speaker 3: And it's like, I was always raised around love.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, that's so great. So how did you meet Nicole
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: Brown Simpson?
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, so I had a casting business with a guy
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: who was on General Hospital. Great, great looking guy, great actor.
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  Speaker 3: And he was my dear friend. His name was Grant Kramer.
• 12:01
  Speaker 3: And Grant was a stud. He was just really cool guy.
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: And he was a General Hospital. He always did celebrity events.
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  Speaker 2: So we became buddies just from auditioning and seeing each other.
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  Speaker 2: We became really dear friends.
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  Speaker 3: And He said he has a great idea for a
• 12:16
  Speaker 3: business that cast movies for the extras.
• 12:19
  Speaker 2: So we cast movies for extras, did really well. Because
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: some movies had 200 people, we get a percentage of
• 12:25
  Speaker 2: everybody we had. I'd be the wrangler. And a lot
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: of times I'd get one day roles to keep my
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: SAG card up.
• 12:31
  Speaker 3: And we put ourselves in little parts. And it was
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: a great business. So we did well enough that we
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: went to Aspen. He goes, everybody goes to Aspen for
• 12:39
  Speaker 3: the New Year's.
• 12:40
  Speaker 2: I said, oh, great. We drove to Aspen. He saw Nicole.
• 12:44
  Speaker 3: They knew each other from a skiing event, a celebrity
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: ski event. And they started seeing each other.
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: She was divorced. And I was the third wheel. So
• 12:56
  Speaker 2: anytime we did something, it was all three of us.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: And then I met at that time, I met an
• 13:00
  Speaker 3: actress named Catherine Oxenberg.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: And then she and I hit it off at that time.
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: And then we became a group for those five or
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: six days. We were there for the New Year's. And
• 13:09
  Speaker 2: then when we went back to LA, everybody stayed in touch.
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: So, and then how did you become a house guest
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: to Nicole?
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: Oh, I was living in Hermosa beach, Rachel.
• 13:19
  Speaker 3: And when I went to Hermosa, the drive from LA
• 13:22
  Speaker 3: to Hermosa was hour, took hour and a half sometimes
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: just to go 15 miles.
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: I saw Nicole used.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: To throw a little get togethers at her house and
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: she had a guest house at her house on Gretna green,
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: not Bundy, but on Gretna green. I went to, um,
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: I said, who's living in this house, in this back house?
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: And she says, nobody. And I already knew I was
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: making her laugh. We became friends and her kids loved me.
• 13:45
  Speaker 3: And she said, you can have it, rent it.
• 13:47
  Speaker 2: So I rented it. And that was it.
• 13:51
  Speaker 3: Then later she began dating OJ again. And then we
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: all became friends.
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: Got it. And so what was your experience with OJ?
• 14:02
  Speaker 3: When I was living at Gretna Green, it was, you know,
• 14:05
  Speaker 3: My tax bracket basically was donuts and theirs was Danish.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: I didn't hang out.
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: I didn't really do anything. I was never the babysitter.
• 14:14
  Speaker 3: But if they said, Cato, would you watch the kids
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: if we go out? I said, if I was available,
• 14:18
  Speaker 3: I would love to. And so my relationship with them
• 14:23
  Speaker 3: was fine. I never saw, Rachel, I never saw that.
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: I saw the mean side kind of once, maybe twice
• 14:29
  Speaker 3: of him. But obviously there was a history. I didn't
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: meet till 93. And I know there was domestic abuse
• 14:34
  Speaker 3: in 89, I believe. So I was not I didn't
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: know them at that time.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: And did she tell you about that at all in
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: conversations when you guys became friends? Did she friends? Did
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: she warn you about that at all?
• 14:46
  Speaker 3: She didn't say until O.J. did something terrible. And then
• 14:49
  Speaker 3: she would say that he's a he's a mean, mean guy.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: And he has this side that he's very manipulative. And
• 14:55
  Speaker 3: I saw it later on. And then there was a
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: 911 call where I wasn't there. But I knew at
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: that moment that this is a bad dude and they
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: shouldn't be together. Because I'll tell you, when there were
• 15:08
  Speaker 3: little arguments, Rachel, I went back to what my parents
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: would do, just give them the hug and the kiss.
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: I would say, why don't you guys, you guys got
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: the most incredible life. You got beautiful kids. You're wealthy,
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: beautiful homes.
• 15:21
  Speaker 2: What is the problem?
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: But in hindsight, I think the problem was that OJ
• 15:26
  Speaker 3: wanted his cake and wanted another cake and another piece
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: and a piece. And I think, my opinion, I think
• 15:31
  Speaker 3: that's what the thing was. And I think at one point, Nicole,
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: she didn't say this to me, but I could feel it, was,
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: it's me or it's me or nobody else. You can't have,
• 15:39
  Speaker 3: you can't have your choice.
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: But so you didn't have any experience with him personally
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: where he was awful to you or, I mean, what,
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: what were your thoughts of him going into kind of
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: the end of days with, with him? How did you
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: became his house guest?
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Oh yeah. So, living with Nicole for seven months.
• 15:59
  Speaker 3: She then left her house and she got a place
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: on Bundy and asked me to move in, but it
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: wasn't a guest house.
• 16:05
  Speaker 2: And I didn't feel right.
• 16:06
  Speaker 3: Of moving into the house. And she and I were
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: never romantic, definitely great friends. And I said, I didn't
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: want to do that. And I said, I'll find somewhere else.
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: And they were seeing each other at that time. And
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: OJ just said, you can live in a bungalow.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: I've got four of them.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Just live in one of the bungalows, three or four
• 16:24
  Speaker 3: of them until you find a place. And that's how
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: that all started.
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: Right. So now just take us up to the like
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: the 24 hours leading up to the murders you had.
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: You spent some time with O.J. that night, correct?
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I used to do a lot of. running.
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: I did a few of these marathons and I would
• 16:44
  Speaker 3: run 10 to 15 miles. And he came by my
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: door after I ran and I played basketball. And he
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: asked for, he came into my door, which he'd never
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: really done before.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: It's his house.
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: We can do what he wants, but he came and said, uh, uh,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: if I could, uh, uh, break on, it was about, uh,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: breaking a hundred dollar bill. If I had any money,
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: if I could break, I said, no, I said, but
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: I have 40, here's $ 40. And he goes, Oh, that's cool.
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: And, uh, then he said, I'm going to go and
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: get something to eat. And I was starving. And I said, oh, cool.
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: Can I go?
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: And I knew when I said that it was sort
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: of like I stepped on a line. Right. Overstepped your bounds. Yeah. Right.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: And I'm the guy that's going, I probably shouldn't have
• 17:28
  Speaker 2: asked that because, Rachel, it seemed like there was a
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: two minute pause. Then he said, okay. I knew I
• 17:34
  Speaker 2: was already, I felt really uncomfortable that I invited myself.
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: Then he was just driving.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: I had no idea he was going to McDonald's or anything.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: I just got in the car and he went to
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: a McDonald's. It became a biggie because there was one
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: closer to his house and the police, they said, why
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: did you go to this one?
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: To tell you the truth, I didn't even know where
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: the McDonald's was. I didn't know there was two of them.
• 17:55
  Speaker 2: I never went there.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: We go to McDonald's and I got chicken and he got,
• 18:01
  Speaker 3: I think, a Big Mac and a quarter pounder.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: But I just remember that he ate it in one
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: bite or so. And I just waited because I thought
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: we were going to eat in his kitchen.
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: And next thing you know, I got out of the car,
• 18:15
  Speaker 3: walked to his door by his house to eat in
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: the kitchen. And he was standing at his door of
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: the car. He never even came back. So I was
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: about 20 feet away. And then I was like, oh,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: he doesn't want me to hang out anymore. And I
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: just went to my room.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: So. That was that's the. Right.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: And that was before the murders took place, apparently, allegedly.
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: OK.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: And then you saw him after getting into his car,
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: going to the airport.
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: Correct.
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: When he left town.
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: So I kept thinking I was hearing a noise, a
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: ringing and a ringing.
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: And it was coming. My house is separate.
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: But there's an intercom that I think the, the limo
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: driver was there, kept ringing and ringing. I didn't know
• 18:56
  Speaker 3: what that was. So I went out and I said, uh,
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: and in the meantime, I'm on the phone with a
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: girl saying, come on over. And she's saying, come to
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: my place. And we're deciding who's going to come over
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: to where, whose place she was my friend.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: And, um, I said, do we have an earthquake?
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: Because the picture of my wall moved, I had no windows.
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: It was just a wall and a picture like the
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: one behind just moved. I said, I think we had
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: an earthquake.
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: And she said, no.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: And then I, uh, I was going to call her
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: back and I went outside and it was Alan Park,
• 19:24
  Speaker 3: the limo driver. And I asked him if we had
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: an earthquake, I let him in and I saw luggage
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: out there for OJ. So I imagine that he was
• 19:32
  Speaker 3: just put his stuff out there waiting to go to Chicago.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: And there was one bag that was 25 feet away
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: at the foot of a car by the trunk. And
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: when OJ came out, I started loading the car with
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: the limo driver and I ran to get the, I said,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: I'll get that one.
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: He says, no, don't get it. Don't touch it. And
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: that's the bag that's never been found. Yeah.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: To this day, it's the infamous bag that has never
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: been found. So, and in your opinion, do you think
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: that there was evidence in that bag?
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: In my opinion, yes, because everything's sort of hindsight. You
• 20:07
  Speaker 3: don't think a murder took place in hindsight. And then
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: I go, why wouldn't he want me to touch that bag?
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Where is he? Whatever happened to that bag? So, yeah,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: I mean, I have dreams about certain scenarios that always
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: play out in my mind, constantly play out of how
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: things could have been.
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: Different, sort of like sliding doors. What if I didn't
• 20:28
  Speaker 2: go to McDonald's? Just all these things on timelines. And
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: it really plays heavy on my mind.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Right, right. So what was his demeanor like when you
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: saw him getting into the limo and you spent that
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: little bit of time with him? Was he fine?
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it seemed like sort of rushed, very silent, not quiet,
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: no mood. It was just sort of like, you know, conversational.
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: There was nothing. You couldn't read if he just committed
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: a double homicide. You would never pick that up. I
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: don't know what his ride was like in the limo,
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: but it was a very short time.
• 21:06
  Speaker 5: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 21:09
  Speaker 5: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 21:14
  Speaker 5: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
• 21:21
  Speaker 5: a treat.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor.
• 21:29
  Speaker 5: With Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: Because they left immediately after the car, bags were packed. Right.
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: So then you spend your evening doing whatever you're doing.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: And when, when was it that you finally heard that
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: there had been two murders?
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: It had to be about five in the morning or so.
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: And, and it was, I always preface this by saying
• 21:55
  Speaker 3: that the night Rachel was really a foggy June gloom
• 21:58
  Speaker 3: in L.A. And I just had trouble. Everything just seemed,
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: something was out of place. I can't explain it, but
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: it just seemed out of place. And then there was
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: a knocking at my door with four guys at my door.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: I didn't even ask who they were. I just opened
• 22:12
  Speaker 3: my door and said, hey.
• 22:13
  Speaker 2: It was four in the morning.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: They said, hi, can we come in? And I led
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: my guests off. They said, we're LAPD detectives. And they
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: immediately asked me who I was. And then what did
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: I wear yesterday? And can we see your shoes? And
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: the entire time that's going on, when I'm, I'm first groggy,
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: I'm not, it's sort of a dream state. And I
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: just said, did OJ's plane crash? Cause the only thing
• 22:35
  Speaker 3: I could think of that something happened that they're at
• 22:38
  Speaker 3: this house because something happened with the plane crash. And
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: I didn't even think about my shoes, the clothes I did.
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: I said, yeah, here's everything.
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: So it made no sense to me. Right. Right.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: And you must've been startled cause it's so early in
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: the morning and they're waking you up out of a
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: dead sleep. So at what point did you finally learn that?
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: Nicole and Ron had been killed.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: When OJ's other daughter from the first marriage, Arnelle, she
• 23:04
  Speaker 3: was in the other bungalow and the police let us
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: into the main house. And we were on a chair
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: and a couch separated from each other. And then one
• 23:14
  Speaker 3: of the detectives went in to make a phone call.
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: And it was Tom Lang. And Tom Lang didn't want
• 23:22
  Speaker 3: the press to tell the parents that their daughter has
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: been killed. So I overheard it, Tom Lang on the
• 23:30
  Speaker 3: phone of saying that their daughter has been killed.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: And what were your thoughts? Like what was going through
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: your head?
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: I was, I was wondering, I still sort of the
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: dream state, unbelievable that happened. And I was just thinking
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: what I was wondering, how could it have happened? How
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: did it happen?
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Who did it?
• 23:52
  Speaker 3: And the police, obviously they don't, give out anything. They don't,
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: they've got their little system of how they're going to
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: run a case because anybody could have done it.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And I was just, Arnell was crying and it was just,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: it blew us both away. Like, you've got to be
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: kidding me. And I, one of the things I remember
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: is the police took me to the station and when
• 24:13
  Speaker 2: they led me out, the detectives said, oh, watch out
• 24:16
  Speaker 2: for the blood. And I looked down, there were blood
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: droplets on the floor. And I always thought, boy, that's a,
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: I think detectives do certain things to see if like,
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: if someone knew there was blood or anything like that,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: but I did see it and I said, oh my God.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: And then I start going, why is there blood here?
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: And then everybody found out later on about DNA. DNA,
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: that was the case that brought what DNA was.
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Right, right. So immediately in your mind, did you think
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: that OJ had something to do with it?
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Not immediately because I thought he was in Chicago and
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: I didn't know like time timelines of anything.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: So I was.
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: Thinking that someone's got to tell OJ. And then the
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: police did their, you know, of calling him in Chicago and.
• 25:03
  Speaker 2: How he had cuts on his hand. And then the
• 25:05
  Speaker 2: suspicion start going, this something's not right. But I still
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: wasn't convinced. I'm like, could this, could he be telling
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: the truth? Did he throw a glass and cut his finger? And, Yeah,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: it was sort of weighing on both sides. Like, could
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: this guy actually murder the mother at her house where
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: their kids are there?
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: Right, right. And you were friends with her. So were you,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: was there some part of you that was now grieving
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: and upset and wanting to go over to the house
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and see what had happened and speak to her kids?
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: I know that they were a part of your life
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: for a while.
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, I was at the police station, I think,
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: for like 10 hours or so. I went back after
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: that released, I went back to where I lived. And
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I was so uncomfortable because everybody started visiting, taking sides.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: And I was like, then OJ said, well, Cato, you
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: know where I was, you and I were in the kitchen.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: And then I just was like, no, no, I wasn't.
• 26:05
  Speaker 3: And I thought he was trying to make me lie,
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: set up an alibi. And then I moved out sort
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: of immediately. And then I started becoming a little suspicious
• 26:12
  Speaker 3: of going, this isn't right. Why is he saying, why
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: is he saying something that wasn't true? And he knows
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: it wasn't true.
• 26:18
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: So you, you decided to move out of the bungalow
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: that you were staying in?
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Moved out and moved in with some buddies of mine. And, um, uh,
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: that was, uh, a few days later than, uh, the
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: famous Bronco chase happened. And, um, uh, And he was
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: driving with Al Cowlings was the driver.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: And what were your thoughts when you saw that? I mean,
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that was pretty crazy. I don't know how.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: Anyone could have missed that.
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: My thought was that, you know, they said that OG's
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: got a guy who's going to kill himself. My opinion
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: was at that time, I said, this guy loves to
• 26:50
  Speaker 3: be adulated by people. This guy is no way will
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: kill himself because he loves attention and he will never,
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: never damage himself. He knows how to play an audience.
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: He knows how to get pity. And I think at
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: that time.
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: We all saw people on the freeways, their signs.
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: They knew, he knew how to play, you know, the
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: emotions of people.
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: Now, you have an opinion, I'm assuming, one way or
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: the other, about whether or not he's guilty, correct?
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. I've stated that. My opinion, completely guilty. Yeah.
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I think most people think that now. And regardless of
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: what I think, nothing will bring back two lives. And
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: I think he's got his set fans that think he's innocent.
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: He's got his own Twitter account with people that think
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: he's the greatest.
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: And Those people are adamant. They're just going to stay
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: that way. I have no contact.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: I have no contact with anybody because Rachel, at one
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: point I just said, I, by the way, if I
• 27:54
  Speaker 3: had conversations with somebody, it'd be fine. I just haven't
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: gone out to, I just want everybody's life to go on.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: I met with Kim Goldman. I didn't know Ron Goldman,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: but I met Fred Goldman, the father, and I met
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: Kim and I did a few events with.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: Kim and a few TV shows. And she's wonderful. The
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: family's wonderful. And to this, she'll never forget the pain
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: that she goes through every day in the family. Right. Yeah.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: I mean, that kind of grieving is so awful. And
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: somebody being in the wrong place at the wrong time
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: is just unbelievable.
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: And the same for the Brown family and the sisters.
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: And I know Denise.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: they used to go out a lot, Denise with OJ.
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: And I know that she's always said that OJ is the,
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: is the killer and she's been adamant about it.
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: She knew him very well, much better than I did. So,
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: and you're right about wrong place, wrong time.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: And I don't, this is, I don't want to do
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: a promotion, I think, but because of wrong place, wrong time,
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: I wrote something called wrong place, wrong time, and just
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: sold it because I'm not the only one that's been
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: thrust into something. There's many cases of people. I mean,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: true crime is the number one show everywhere. Everybody wants
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: true crime. And crime is so, it's just, it's everywhere.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: So I became sort of a poster boy for that.
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: And I talk with people that have gone through similar
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: situations on a show and it's cathartic and it just
• 29:16
  Speaker 3: is such a release.
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: And so talk to me about what it was like
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: to be in that trial. I mean, you were one
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: of the star witnesses. You created the timeline for where
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: OJ was. What was that like to go from being
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: you in sort of the private life to all of
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: a sudden being the biggest celebrity, so to speak, in
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the world? Everybody wanted a piece of you, good or bad.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: So tell me what that was like.
• 29:40
  Speaker 3: Well, I didn't know it at the time. I just
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: remember that I went in there as Cato Kaelin. And
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: when I came out, everybody was screaming my name. And
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: I just said, the media is so powerful. I mean,
• 29:52
  Speaker 3: everybody screamed my name and I was recognizable. And, you know,
• 29:57
  Speaker 3: from being invited to Clinton's dinner at the White House
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: to all these things. And I thought to myself, I
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: know people are going to hate me.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: And I totally understand.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: Why they would hate me, but I never would hate
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: someone for what they became because it's just not me.
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: So I wanted people to know that I know I
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: didn't ask for any of this.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: It just kind of happened. And people started inviting me
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: and doing things. And I wanted to be an actor.
• 30:28
  Speaker 3: And it didn't, it helped me out, you know, it
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: gave me a radio show, but it didn't help me. I,
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: like I said, any audition I got, it was just,
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: I could feel that they just.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Wanted to meet me. There was never anything serious, but
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: I just, whatever, like I said, it was a blueprint.
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: And I just became this guy that became very famous,
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: you know, overnight.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: Um, and so many people from that trial became famous overnight.
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: I mean, people, lawyers, I believe got television shows. I
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: remember Greta Van Susteren and I remember, you know, all
• 31:01
  Speaker 1: these different people became famous for that trial, right?
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: Well, not only that, they started, I think four different
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: networks started because of that from court TV to MSNBC to, um,
• 31:13
  Speaker 3: there's two others, but beast of a burden of proof, uh,
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: with Greta and then they, uh, with Roger Cossack, um, I.
• 31:21
  Speaker 2: Mean, the list goes on. Dad, Abrams, everything.
• 31:25
  Speaker 5: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 31:28
  Speaker 5: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 31:33
  Speaker 5: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
• 31:40
  Speaker 5: a treat.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 31:47
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: Every court thing you see going on from the depth
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: trial to the Alec Baldwin trial coming up to anything
• 32:01
  Speaker 3: going on, all is because of the OG trial. And
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: I always said, you know, crime obviously does pay because
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: everybody got a network deal or got a starting to
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: network and they're still running today. And it's a, it's
• 32:14
  Speaker 3: a fascination.
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: I think people love seeing anybody in court because they go, Oh,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: my life's okay.
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to understand. I think people relate to that, Rachel,
• 32:23
  Speaker 3: because it's, it's makes them feel.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Better about their life.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: Sure.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Well, what do you think when you watch these other
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: trials that you just mentioned, like the Johnny Depp trial
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: or even Gwyneth Paltrow more recently, like when you see
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: that with the, with the cameras in the courtroom, what
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: do you think about the people on trial?
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: Uh, I sort of get it. I know how they
• 32:43
  Speaker 3: can work it. I know how you can work a
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: jury now. The first time I was ever in a
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: courtroom in my life was the trial. I never even
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: had a parking ticket, nothing. I had never been in
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: a courthouse. So I start seeing of how you can
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: manipulate a jury and.
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: How you can make them like you. And I saw it,
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: especially during the Amber Heard trial.
• 33:01
  Speaker 3: I didn't see the jury, but I could see from
• 33:04
  Speaker 3: reaction of Johnny Depp that they were.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Liking him a lot more. And you could just kind
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: of feel it. There's a presence. I don't like that person.
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: And I could tell in the trial I was involved with,
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: because I saw the jury, I could see these people
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: love OJ.
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: For the verdict, you already felt.
• 33:26
  Speaker 2: Completely. You just saw they like this guy and you'd
• 33:30
  Speaker 2: even wave. So that and I think. Depp's an actor.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: She's an actor. They're playing a part, basically. Because you
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: are playing a part. You're going to try to make
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: everybody love you. And Gwyneth Paltrow just played it cool
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: when she said she's going to sue him for a dollar.
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: It's sort of like a win-win for her because they're
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: saying she's not in it for the money. She just
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: wants to clear her name. And, you know, it's always
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: a chance to go in with the jury of how
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: they're going to like you or not.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: But I think you've got... when you have a good lawyer,
• 34:04
  Speaker 2: they let you know how to play it.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 34:07
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: Uh, I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: when they brought the glove into the trial.
• 34:12
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah.
• 34:14
  Speaker 3: Uh, I'll tell you what, I had my own lawyer,
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: which they told me to hire a lawyer. I didn't
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: know why because I was just this witness, but they said,
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: get a lawyer. I had Bill Janago, and he's passed away,
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: but he was so smart. Every lawyer says, never ask
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: a question unless you know the answer. I think it's
• 34:35
  Speaker 3: pretty basic law 101. I think when they brought up
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: the gloves, and.
• 34:39
  Speaker 2: They didn't have them try on gloves before, and they're
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: not going to fit And Johnny Cochran knew how to
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: talk to the jury of the glove don't fit. You
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: got to quit. He talked in a lingo that they
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: would get. And that became a catchphrase. You just saw
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: the domination of the dream team of how good they were.
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: And then how DNA.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: Was, you know, 1994 or 5, it was the first
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: with DNA coming out.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: And back then, DNA to me meant dude needs apartment.
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: I was nowhere to go. No, I'm kidding, Rachel. I
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: was this. So when Barry.
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: Sheck, who I think was the genius of the trial,
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: he just explained it to the jury when the prosecution
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: couldn't explain it.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: And he just said it was all tainted.
• 35:24
  Speaker 3: And I think that sort of was what really swayed
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: the jury of their conviction.
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: Well, that's why I asked, because I thought that was
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: such an incredible part. You know, it was a turning
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: point for the trial. But also, I mean, it also
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: seemed like anyone could make that glove not fit.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: It's been sitting there for years. It's soaked in whatever water, blood,
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. And then you have this big guy's
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: hand going in like this. I mean, I don't necessarily
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: know that, you know, he, he could have made it
• 35:54
  Speaker 1: fit or he could have made it not fit. But
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: that was just.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: I agree with you on that.
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: I don't know all the truth to them saying it
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: on all the other shows that were out there on
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: the documentary that won an Oscar for ESPN, the Ryan
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: Murphy show that won eight Emmys. And they all said
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: that he was taking medications and salt on purpose to bloat.
• 36:12
  Speaker 2: So, you know, they... Trying it out. Everybody's got that.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: They got the Bronco image. They've got the glove image.
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: They got don't if you glove don't fit, don't quit.
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's got all these things that the trial had,
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: all these catchphrases and certain moments that are ingrained in
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: people's brains.
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So. All right.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: So at the end of the trial, the jury goes
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: out for four hours or something and comes back with
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: a verdict. Do you think that O.J. and his team
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: were expecting the verdict they got?
• 36:45
  Speaker 3: I think everybody but Robert Kardashian, because that image of
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: him of not believing it, you could see his face.
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: Another iconic image when he said.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: You know, she makes a mistake on his name to
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: find him not guilty.
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: So and they have that shot of him.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: And I think he was the one that said, I
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: can't believe this guy got away with it.
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: Right. And where were you when you heard the news?
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: I was sitting next to a woman named Barbara Walters and, uh,
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: the iconic Barbara Walters.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: And I, I just whispered, I said, I think the
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: jury made a huge mistake. Wow.
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: And did she say something to you?
• 37:21
  Speaker 2: What were her thoughts? I, she agreed. She agreed.
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: And, uh, And through that, we had a friendship up
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: until she had just passed away. And along with Larry
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: King and all these people that were all part of it.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: And now their life, their legacy, you know, goes on.
• 37:35
  Speaker 3: But it's amazing. In hindsight, you kind of look at life.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: It's like, wow, I feel like it just was like yesterday. And,
• 37:42
  Speaker 3: you know, talking to you, it's like it brings everything back,
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: good or bad. It's like, I can't believe it's going
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: to be on 30 years coming up.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: And yeah, I was. Are you kidding me? So it's
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: sort of like. It's just, it's so fast. As you know,
• 37:58
  Speaker 2: time goes by so fast.
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: And I just, if I could ask you a question
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: on that, I think you were maligned also. I mean,
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: you're a wonderful person, obviously. And you dealt, everybody deals
• 38:08
  Speaker 3: in a certain way. I dealt because I had great
• 38:11
  Speaker 3: family and friends. I don't know how you and media
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: started picking on you when you went through scandals and
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: how you handle things.
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: Well, it's similar to what you're talking about or what
• 38:21
  Speaker 1: I've heard you talk about in the past too, is that,
• 38:23
  Speaker 1: you know, I went from being someone who maybe wasn't
• 38:30
  Speaker 1: necessarily famous, but I was, you know, a big deal
• 38:32
  Speaker 1: in my own life, right? I thought that I was
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: getting along just fine. And then to one day being
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: thrust into the spotlight for something that I didn't want
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: to be part of. And quite frankly, it was someone
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: else's scandal that I just, I really happened to be
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: in the passenger seat of that car when it went
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: over the cliff. And yes, I had responsibility in that,
• 38:50
  Speaker 1: but not the bigger part of the responsibility that had
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: to do with 15 other women and a whole history
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: of things going on. So I became the villain. And
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: to be a girl who was somewhat young, I mean,
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: I was in my early 30s or whatever, and to
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: all of a sudden have the press narrate who you
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: are and... Watch it. Listen to it. You can't get
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: away from it because it was the biggest story in
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: the world, not just like in my hometown. It was
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: in the world. And then have people give an opinion
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: on you. And, I would hear quotes from people that
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: had never met me or had come across my path
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: maybe once, but saying, oh yeah, I know Rachel, you
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: could tell. Let me tell you about Rachel. And it
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: was so hurtful. And people didn't think of me as
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: a person. And at the end of the night, I
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: had to go to sleep I had to turn out
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: the lights and have my head on the pillow and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: think about this and hear the things that people said
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: about me. And it was awful, you know, and I
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: lost my family support, my friends. No one was around.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: I had to hire lawyers to like kind of protect me,
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: but they didn't know me. And it was a really
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: awful thing to go through. And people think, oh, you know,
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: it's 13 years ago or whatever it is. 14 years ago. No,
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: it still affects my life today. I mean, you know,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: I have a daughter who's 10. I try and get
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: her into a school. And then you have people that
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: are like, I don't want this woman here. Or I
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: go out on a, I'm single. I go out on
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: a date with somebody and they, they, you know, are like, oh, well.
• 40:23
  Speaker 1: this is going to be an issue introducing you to
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: my kids. I'm like, what issue? What is it? What
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: are you talking about? This is 14 years ago. And
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: you don't know anyone that's ever had an affair with someone.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: I mean, why is this a big deal?
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: So to be like the biggest villain and monster in
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: a story that was bigger than me was really horrible.
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: And to this day it's affected me and my life
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: remains Rachel, you could tell comma Tiger Woods mistress. I mean,
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: it just does. And I can't get away from that.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: And I try my best to reinvent myself in all
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: sorts of ways. And I've gotten over it, but other
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: people haven't. So it's very hard for me to personally
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: get over it too.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: I agree.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: I think it can relate very much to how the
• 41:07
  Speaker 3: court of public opinion works.
• 41:09
  Speaker 2: And it doesn't end. It takes time. And when you
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: know yourself, it's fine.
• 41:13
  Speaker 3: I'm fine with it because I can joke about my
• 41:15
  Speaker 3: life if they want to make fun of me. you know,
• 41:18
  Speaker 3: what can you do, but isn't it amazing for both
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: of us and how many people want to be part
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: of it.
• 41:22
  Speaker 2: They'll just, they'll go on and they'll say, Oh, I
• 41:25
  Speaker 2: got an OJ story. Oh, I knew. And then it
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: probably is for you a story. It's like, why do
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: you want to be associated? Right. Exactly. Everybody's got a story.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: So.
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: It's so interesting what you say. Everybody wants to be involved.
• 41:38
  Speaker 1: So everybody has an opinion. Everybody has something to say
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: where they think they're.
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 41:46
  Speaker 5: know about the drawer. The drawer. Just the one square
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: before bed. Or two, you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve
• 41:58
  Speaker 5: a treat.
• 42:02
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 42:05
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: You know, an expert on the situation says, And only
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: I'm an expert on the situation I went through just
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: like you. And it's really hard, but also it's hard
• 42:21
  Speaker 1: when people approach you, like they know you, whether it's
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: a good thing or a bad thing, it's, it's hard
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: because you have to approach every single person as an individual.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: And, and I almost have to turn people one person
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: at a time and they're like, Oh, I spent time
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: with her, so now I like her. I know her,
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: but I've become very closed off. I'm more of a
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: recluse than anything else because I don't trust people. I
• 42:44
  Speaker 1: don't really like people because I've been treated really badly.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: And I love that you say, like, now you can
• 42:51
  Speaker 1: joke about it. I do the same thing. Like, I
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: can joke about it. I laugh about it. But inside,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: when I hear what people are saying— it's not fun
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: for me. I'm like, this guy's an idiot. This person's
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: an idiot. They don't know what they're talking about. They
• 43:02
  Speaker 1: don't know what it's like. And it's really hard to
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: have those conversations with people that don't know what it's
• 43:07
  Speaker 1: like when the media creates a narration of who you
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: are and creates a caricature of who you are. And
• 43:15
  Speaker 1: then the public feeds on that. And it's like a
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: back and forth. And you become just, you're a shell
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: of yourself, you know? So that's been really hard for me.
• 43:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, 100%.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: But then you obviously have done very well and I
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: do well. And I think it's all because of, you
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: know who you are as this person.
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: And it's like, okay, you know what? Fine, let's take
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: it on. And so that's kind of what's happening. And
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: my outlook is great.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: I really think that when people, if, you know, sometimes people,
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: I've done some speeches at colleges and I've done some,
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: you know, other people have asked me opinion on things.
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: And I really look at life this way and it
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: helps out with everything. It's sort of like you. You've
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: got this semester at college. Life is so short. It's
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: like that semester, it's going to be so much fun.
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: You meet all these new people. And before you know it,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: your graduate's over.
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: So I just look at everything. It's like, it's my
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: semester at college. I'm just going to have fun.
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm going to get things done, but I'm
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: going to do it because it's going to end.
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: But it's interesting because people ask me if I have
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: any regrets or if that time in my life I
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: wish never happened. And I truly believe that you have
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: to have gone through things like that to kind of
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: get out of it. I mean, I'm proud of who
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: I became. I'm proud of how strong I am. I
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: don't need anyone to get me through situations and people
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: can say anything they want and it will not affect me.
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: And I watch people crumble in the smallest of situations.
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: I feel like I can handle anything. How did it
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: affect you?
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: I'm identical to you. I can handle anything. I can't
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: handle anything. I've been through abuse. I've been to people
• 44:55
  Speaker 3: that wanted to fight. I've been through people spitting, putting
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: stuff in my hair. I've been through it all with
• 45:01
  Speaker 3: a person that always loved people and always give the
• 45:05
  Speaker 3: benefit of the doubt to anybody if someone says something
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: bad about someone.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: I'm not the person that speaks bad about someone. I just,
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: I can take it on.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: And I just think that's kind of why I think
• 45:17
  Speaker 3: success is happening at a very late age for me.
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: And I continue. My goals are the same. When I
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: moved here at 21, the goals are, hey, I got
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: to be this person.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: And it's never ending. And I'm telling you, every day
• 45:31
  Speaker 3: I'm happy. I have laugh and obviously I have down days,
• 45:36
  Speaker 3: but I really appreciate life.
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: So talk to me about your life now and what
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: happened after. You're married now, yes?
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: I just got married. Just got married. Yeah, it's just great.
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: And it's a friend of mine through the wedding.
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: At his house.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: And it's a guy from Milwaukee named David Zucker, who
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: I grew up with loving airplane naked gun movies with
• 45:57
  Speaker 3: OJ was in them. And it's amazing, too, because during
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: my speech at David's house, we had a lot of people.
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: I said, David, thanks for not inviting Norberg.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: And that was great.
• 46:08
  Speaker 3: So i i it's so funny because david has stories
• 46:14
  Speaker 3: about og obviously also and um i have a very
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: very uh brilliant uh milwaukee connection wisconsin and we got
• 46:21
  Speaker 3: married at his house basically and um so uh she's
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: a lot younger than me which is is fine and
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: she keeps me very young and um So, and Chinese,
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: which I love. And it's the first time at a
• 46:36
  Speaker 3: wedding we threw rice and she actually picks it up
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: and steamed it.
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: No, folks, please. Rachel, where are we going with this?
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. But she wasn't anybody famous, right?
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: No, no. She's from Beijing. But I got a real
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: quick story.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: I was set up with her through, I was traveling
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: in a show, and it was called Wizard World.
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: It was the world's largest comic con. I was the
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: emcee for four.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Years, traveling the world, all the major stages of convention
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: centers from Chicago, Philadelphia. Anyways, a friend of mine, an investor,
• 47:12
  Speaker 3: I'll make it quick, said, oh, this girl's moving to California.
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: She wants friends to hang out with. So he set
• 47:19
  Speaker 3: me up on a WeChat app. We start talking.
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: We hit it off.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: And on our first date, she goes, oh, in China,
• 47:26
  Speaker 3: she went to school of language, so she speaks English too.
• 47:29
  Speaker 3: And she goes, oh, in China, there's a very, your name,
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: they have a very famous show that's popular. It's called
• 47:34
  Speaker 3: American Crime Story with this guy named OJ. And you
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: got the same name as that Cato guy.
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: And I said, no, that's me. And she just lost it.
• 47:45
  Speaker 3: And she couldn't believe it. But the actor played me.
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: She's like, no, the actor played me and explained to her.
• 47:51
  Speaker 3: And she just, the whole night, she couldn't believe it.
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: It blew her mind. Oh, my gosh.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: It blew her mind.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: But so anyways, yeah, we ended up dating for three
• 48:01
  Speaker 3: years and hit it off.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: So we just did the marriage. Good. Okay.
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: I'm glad you found love.
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a good thing. Honey, where are you?
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, so I have a couple questions that people had
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: written in. Is that okay that I go and give
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: you some of these questions?
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: So the Kardashians, they may not have been making many
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: headlines back in the days when you were friends with
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Nicole Brown Simpson, but the OJ trial thrust that family
• 48:32
  Speaker 1: into the spotlight. What do you think of their fame today?
• 48:37
  Speaker 3: Boy, I'll tell you, it's amazing because I'll bring up
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: the Ryan Murphy show, American Crime Story. In that series,
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: when it came out, I think five or seven years
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: ago around there, they put them in the show so
• 48:50
  Speaker 3: many times at situations. I said, they weren't there. They
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: never were part of that, but they knew how big
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: they were. FX, the Fox show said, put them in there.
• 48:59
  Speaker 3: They've got a huge following.
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: I am blown away how incredible, They're a family of billionaires.
• 49:06
  Speaker 2: Like I said, I knew when I lived at Gretna Green,
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: it was Kim, Chloe, and Courtney, Sidney, Justin, used to
• 49:13
  Speaker 2: jump on my bed to wake up Kato.
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: The kids bought a dog and got the dog, the Akita.
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: It was out of love.
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: They called the dog Kato. It was two Katos constantly around,
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Kato the dog and me. I still drink out of
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: a bowl. I just remember them as kids. I saw
• 49:33
  Speaker 3: Chris Kardashian, Chris Jenner. I saw that sort of the
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: grooming of the kids are beautiful and you could kind
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: of tell, I didn't know there was no social media really,
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: but you could see they're being groomed for success and
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: that's a good thing.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: And it, and it worked and they are so great
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: for them.
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: That's, you know, they hit a nerve and they've got
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: their keeping up with the Kardashians and it's, it's an empire.
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Do you watch the show?
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: I'm blown away. I'm blown away of how big it
• 50:02
  Speaker 2: actually became. Yeah. Yeah.
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: Do you watch the show?
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: No, I don't. I, I don't, I do.
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: Sometimes I travel, I emcee a lot of comedy and
• 50:11
  Speaker 3: I do these things, but I have a whole bit
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: I do on the Kardashians and, and it's.
• 50:14
  Speaker 2: All in fun.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: You know, I just do the Kim, you know, when
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: she hauls ass, she makes two trips. Have you seen
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: her butt? It's the PHAT fat. I mean, it's big
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: and they got a sense of humor. I'm sure she'd laugh.
• 50:28
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: So, um, you were just talking about comedy. Um, The
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: world of comedy took a huge hit in 2021 with
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: the loss of Norm MacDonald. You and Norm were best
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: friends at one point, but it seems like you guys
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: had a falling out. Were you able to reconnect before
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: he passed away?
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: I saw him in a few comedy clubs.
• 50:45
  Speaker 2: It's not that we didn't reconnect or anything. I was traveling.
• 50:49
  Speaker 2: He's on a show. When you have.
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: When you're busy, you're just busy. I got Norm into basketball.
• 50:56
  Speaker 3: We got him in a league. When he was 6'4,
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: I said, you should play basketball. He wasn't good at first.
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: He got really good. That was fun. We used to
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: go golfing and gambling together. It wasn't really a falling out.
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: It was not seeing each other anymore. Life just grew
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: in different ways. I had a girlfriend at the time.
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: I did this stuff more with her. That was it.
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: People made a a big thing.
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: And I just saw someone put up on Instagram when
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: he's on who wants to be a millionaire and I'm his,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: his friend in the background, I crack up.
• 51:33
  Speaker 1: What was that? And weren't you sitting next to, um,
• 51:36
  Speaker 1: Joy Behar or something? What was that?
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. That's when Joy was actually nice.
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: Um, so sitting there, Joe, yeah, it was the celebrity version,
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: but I was there, his buddy to be, you know,
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: they have someone that sits in that seat.
• 51:48
  Speaker 2: That's always lit. He brought Cato Kaelin for that.
• 51:51
  Speaker 1: Um, Did you have to answer any questions for him?
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: No, Regis did an interview with me. I was throughout
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: the whole thing because Norm was out all week. So
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: it was on there. And then I did a few
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: episodes of the Norm show.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: And that's it. I was kind of around comedy people too. Right.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Okay. Okay, another question is, when was the last time
• 52:13
  Speaker 1: you spoke to or saw OJ? It's going to be almost.
• 52:19
  Speaker 2: 28 years ago.
• 52:21
  Speaker 3: So it's, um, in a bathroom during my deposition for
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: the civil trial where I was peeing and he said,
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: how's it going?
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: And I said, I'll be, you know, see ya.
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: And that's after I did deposition of telling truths about
• 52:34
  Speaker 3: him that were not flattering at all.
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: Right. Okay.
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: So that must've been uncomfortable.
• 52:39
  Speaker 2: Um, yeah.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: What would you say to OJ now if you ran
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: into him?
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: Um, you know, I, I think I would back away.
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: I would not run into him. I think I'd walk
• 52:51
  Speaker 2: out of a room. I just don't think I'd face him.
• 52:54
  Speaker 2: And there'd be no reason to.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: I just, I think it's one of those things that
• 52:59
  Speaker 3: has to happen to see if I would say something.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: But thinking about it with you, I just, I think
• 53:04
  Speaker 2: I'd say I want to get out of this room.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, right, right. I wanted to know, what were your
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: thoughts on him going to jail for the whole memorabilia thing?
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: I mean, did you feel like Nevada was giving him
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: this sentence because they wanted to prove a point? Or
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: do you think he was just really guilty of that?
• 53:21
  Speaker 2: I think Nevada was proving a point.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: I think they were saying to California, this is how
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: you prosecute a trial.
• 53:28
  Speaker 2: This is how you do a real trial. And we
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: don't care about celebrity. And I think that's what happened.
• 53:34
  Speaker 2: I think he didn't. Let's face it. Look what's going
• 53:37
  Speaker 2: on in the world now. People are breaking in and
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: stealing Hermes bags and everything and not getting prosecuted where
• 53:44
  Speaker 2: he got nine years.
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: It's just amazing how people are breaking the law and
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: nothing's happening.
• 53:53
  Speaker 2: That's a whole other issue I'll get into, but it's
• 53:55
  Speaker 2: sickening to me of what's going on in the world. Right, right.
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: You grew up in the Midwest in Wisconsin. When you
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: went back to visit your friends and family, and your
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: parents especially, you said they're both deceased now, correct?
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: Sorry to hear that. What were their feelings about the
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: whole thing and you, and what was your relationship like
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: when they passed away?
• 54:19
  Speaker 3: Well, uh, my father had already passed away before the
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: OG trial. My mother was, uh, my mother was so
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: devastated by all the, um, tabloid shows that were saying
• 54:30
  Speaker 3: terrible things about her son. And I would just have
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: to call her when she's crying and say, don't watch this,
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: which made her watch it even more.
• 54:37
  Speaker 2: And I just, it.
• 54:38
  Speaker 3: Just I just, when you hear your mom cry, when
• 54:41
  Speaker 3: I'm very close to her, there's nothing like it.
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: It's just like, I don't care if people pick on me.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: Don't pick on my mom or my family. My family
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: is very strong.
• 54:49
  Speaker 3: So, but it was my mom who was so emotional
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: throughout the, for years, just emotional.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: Don't pick on my boy. So that was it.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: But, you know, obviously I saw her very many times
• 55:02
  Speaker 3: when I'd go back and forth and she, great sense
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: of humor.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: And I'd say, mom, it's all, it's okay. Don't worry
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: about that.
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: Did she get to see you happy after the fact?
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: Oh my God. Oh, for sure. Yeah. She saw me.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: I'd go there at least back then, at least twice
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: a year and spend time and go to a little
• 55:19
  Speaker 2: cottage up in Northern Wisconsin. So it was all good. Okay, good.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: Um, so now you were talking about how your life
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: kind of happened backwards. Tell us where you are now,
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: what kind of shows you just sold, what, what you're doing.
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: Well, um, First of all, I do a podcast that is,
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: once again, cathartic for me.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: It's called One Degree Scandalous. Rachel, you're going to do it? Yeah.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: It's such a good podcast and it's such a good name,
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: by the way. It's the best. Oh, yeah. Let's talk
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: about the podcast because I'm obsessed with that podcast. I've
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: listened to a bunch of episodes. First of all, your host,
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Tom Zenner, is amazing. I love him. You guys are
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: a great couple or whatever. You guys are great co-hosts.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: It is definitely a bromance.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: Tom is so good because I'm, I'm pretty much out
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: there and I'm scattered and I'll throw in a joke.
• 56:08
  Speaker 3: Tom is just so focused and laser sharp. And it's
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: because he's, you know, he's from that business of being
• 56:13
  Speaker 3: a news news anchor.
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: Um, but, man, it's like you said, we just have
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: this chemistry. It just works. It just works. One degree
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: of scandals. You're getting great guests.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: And no, we talk some OJ stuff, but we talk
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: about all the other scandals that go on. We've had
• 56:27
  Speaker 3: people from the depth trial. We're going to get people
• 56:29
  Speaker 3: from the Alec Baldwin trial. So, and we have fun
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: with it and everybody's, loving the show. I wrote something
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: with a partner named Mike Jaglin, who's also genius. We
• 56:41
  Speaker 3: had this idea of wrong place, wrong time. We've been
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: trying so hard to get in. We've had so many
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: deals that happen and then fall through.
• 56:49
  Speaker 2: Now, we signed with a huge agency. We just signed
• 56:52
  Speaker 2: it and sold the show.
• 56:54
  Speaker 3: Getting it out of the story, but the company that
• 56:57
  Speaker 3: bought it, they only get shows on the air and
• 57:00
  Speaker 3: that's wrong place, wrong time where other people are the
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: wrong place, wrong time. And I just shot a pilot
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: for another show with the host by the name of
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: John Gray.
• 57:09
  Speaker 2: John Gray is the gentleman who was a pastor for
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: Obama and Oprah Winfrey. It's got a huge media following,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: but it's get this. I'm the court. I'm the court interviewer.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: It's called teen court where teens are suing their parents.
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: It's genius.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Oh, And it's done by a guy named Dan Frisch.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: He's been my friend for almost 30 years. And he
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: worked with Tarantino. He produces shows with Eli Roth, who
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: did Hostile. And he's got a new show on Amazon
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: called Daisy Jones and the Six.
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: It's a big hit. And so, Dan, we've been trying
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: to do team court forever.
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: And we finally did it. And one of the cases
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: is the girl wants to get a Brazilian butt. Parents
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: say no way.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: They fight. There could be embolisms. They don't know.
• 57:53
  Speaker 3: The kids don't know. They're 16. So they want a
• 57:57
  Speaker 3: real case where they're fighting. And then we have a
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: case where it's the name, image, likeness. Someone's going to
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: make $ 300, 000 at age 15 because he's a great basketball player.
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: But his mother says, I want the money.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: And these are real cases?
• 58:11
  Speaker 2: Real cases. It's good. It's so good.
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: And I do the interviews, and I put little jokes,
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: and I do the intros of what the case is
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: going to be.
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: Rachel, I'm not just saying this. It's brilliant.
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: And are you there for the verdict and everything?
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: The whole time, yeah. I'm there in the chambers. We
• 58:28
  Speaker 3: find out what's going on. We talk to the jury.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: You can vote.
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: They've got it tied into social media. And we'll see
• 58:34
  Speaker 3: where that goes. But it got picked up by a
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: big agency also. And People just like it. So we
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: got that, the podcast. I travel. I'll do a Comic-Con
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: as a host. I leave next week, and then I'll
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: do another one in July. And just constantly work and
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: do stuff. But something I'm also very proud of, can
• 58:53
  Speaker 3: I tell you?
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, of course.
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: A buddy of mine named Charlie Nama played hockey, NHL,
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: and we decided that, you know, he came up with
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: this concept that everybody goes to a hockey game for what?
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: To see.
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: The hot players?
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: A fight. Hot players.
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: Sorry.
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: That's what I go to hockey games for. I don't
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: care about the game.
• 59:13
  Speaker 2: Hot players and fights. Yes.
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: Oh, right, right, right.
• 59:16
  Speaker 2: Fights.
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: So we are going on our third pay-per-view. where we
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: go and we have sold it, where it's 14 fights
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: with hockey players, just the fights. After this, I'll send
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: you and your link.
• 59:31
  Speaker 2: It's called Ice Wars.
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: Anybody can see on Instagram what we do. And Barstool Sports,
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: you've probably heard a huge following, Pat McAfee Show.
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: It's their favorite show. They've never seen anything like it.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: It's the newest sport.
• 59:45
  Speaker 3: And I do the interviews in the crowd, and I
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: do some of the co-hosting with some of the fights
• 59:48
  Speaker 3: with Chris Therrien, who played 15 years with the Philadelphia Flyers,
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: and he's the voice of the Flyers.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: It is great. And it is, once again, it's good
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: to be gigantic.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: It's like UFC starting, but it's guys on skates, hockey players,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: right with the gloves, no hockey, right to the fights.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: Three one-minute rounds, and it's a round robin. It's violent,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: but intense. So is UFC.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: Right, right, right. So you're never not working. I love that.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: So I just want to say it's been such an
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 1: honor and pleasure getting to meet you and spend time
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 1: talking to you because you are just the perfect example
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: of somebody who became famous for being famous, right? And
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 1: everybody knows your name, but that's like kind of the
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: least interesting thing about you. You are, you're so charismatic.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: You're handsome. You're interesting. You have, you were a person
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: before you're a person after you're And you're always hustling
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: to be like a Renaissance man, to figure it out
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: and live your best life. And I think that's, what's
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 1: really important for people to know that they shouldn't just
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 1: know your name for that trial because it had nothing
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: to do with you. It just actually gave you the
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 1: platform to have more of a voice. And I think that's,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: what's incredible about you.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: Um, you made my, my week, my month, my year.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: You're so kind. And thank you so much. And I
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: feel the same way about you.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: And you can tell by your show that you, uh, anyways,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: you've got the passion, you've got the caring and, um, I, I,
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: you're just, it'll be, you're going to have so much
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 3: success because you know who you.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: Are and that's wonderful.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: I'm so glad I did this and that you contacted
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: me and I, I, I'm going to see you again. Yes.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to be on your podcast. I'm inviting
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: myself on your podcast though.
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: We can't wait. Uh, Rachel, so misunderstood. What a great title.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: Thank you. Thank you. I really appreciate your time and
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 1: I wish you all the best.
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: Thank you so much. Have a great one. Don't miss
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 2: the USL Championship Final on CBS, November 21st at noon Eastern.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: Will the Pittsburgh Riverhounds retain their crown, or will a
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: new title winner emerge?
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: Don't miss the conclusion to the 2026 season, Saturday, November
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: 21st at noon Eastern on CBS.