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How Our Relationships with Our Fathers Impact Us: with Craig Melvin · QUESTION EVERYTHING

• 0:04
  Speaker 1: Big things happen when you're pretty, pretty bold, pretty clever,
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: pretty strong. I'm Danielle Robe and each week my guests
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: and I have conversations that put a new spin on
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: pretty This is pretty smart. So I screwed up a
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: little bit. I thought Father's Day was in July.
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: It's not.
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: It clearly was last weekend, and I slated this episode
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: for Father's Day, which when you hear it it'll make
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: more sense. But because I'm terrible with calendars and dates
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: and times, we're getting this episode.
• 0:38
  Speaker 2: A week after Father's Day.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: But it'll still be very special, maybe even more special
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: now that I think about it, because we all had
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: time to think about what our relationship with our dad
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: means to us, whether it's beautiful or complicated or beautifully complicated.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: This year, on Father's Day, a friend said to me,
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: there's so many ways we celebrate moms on Mother's Day.
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: There's brunch and mimosas and flowers and Spotty's, and it
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: kind of seems like dads get the short end of
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: the stick when Father's Day rolls around.
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: And the thing is, She's kind of right.
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: We spent a lot of time talking about motherhood and
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: quite honestly for good reason. It makes me think of
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: an interview I did with Angela Garbis that aired a
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: few weeks ago on Essential Labor, and.
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: The whole interview was about motherhood.
• 1:28
  Speaker 1: And by the end I said, you know, Angela, we've
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: been talking about motherhood and it's in the zeitgeist.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: Finally, what about fatherhood?
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: And she said, yeah, we should be talking about fatherhood,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: but fathers should be having that conversation.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: And she was right.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: And I love when someone checks me because I learned
• 1:46
  Speaker 1: something in that moment. It's not up to mothers to
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: be having that conversation. It's up to fathers. So I
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: thought about who I want to learn about fatherhood from,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: who's a thought leader in the space. Immediately one name
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: came to mind, Craig. Melvin Craig is a well known
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: journalist and many of you will know him as the
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: co host of NBC's Today's Show. He also wrote a
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: best selling book titled Pops Learning to Be a Son
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: and a Father, and interestingly, his approach to this book
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: was far more investigative than it was a memoir. He
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: wanted to understand his dad, interrogate his family's legacy of addiction,
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: and despair, but also transformation and redemption. He's now a
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: father of two young kids, which of course changed his
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: own perspective on fatherhood. Craig didn't have a perfect relationship
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: with his dad by any means. In fact, it was
• 2:42
  Speaker 1: very complicated. But I think that's what makes today's episodes
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: so special. We're throwing out the idea that any of
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: our relationships have to be perfect in order for them
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: to be essential and impactful. So today we're celebrating dads
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: and fatherhood and of course parenthood in general. And I
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: also want our community, our pretty smart community, to celebrate
• 3:04
  Speaker 1: Craig because in his generosity and vulnerability, I think we're
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: all going to see a piece of ourselves. So I
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: feel like you could have written a lot of different books.
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: You've spoken to interesting people, You've had a really interesting life,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: and you decided to write about your dad and write
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: about fatherhood. And I'm curious as to why you felt
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: the pull to explore fatherhood with this book.
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: You know, for me, it was a couple of different things.
• 3:35
  Speaker 3: My dad's getting older, and.
• 3:38
  Speaker 4: After he got clean, he was just so guilty about
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: the time that he felt like he'd wasted in his
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: own life and with his sons as well, and we
• 3:50
  Speaker 4: would have these conversations that would sometimes end in tears,
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: his tears typically, and where he would just talk about
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: this guilt almost So I wanted to sort of write
• 4:03
  Speaker 4: this book as a love letter to him, just to
• 4:08
  Speaker 4: sort of let him know that all had been forgiven absolved.
• 4:14
  Speaker 4: But I also, you know, I have two small children,
• 4:17
  Speaker 4: and also I think it's important for our kids to
• 4:22
  Speaker 4: know what their grandparents were really like, not Pop Pop
• 4:27
  Speaker 4: and Gigi that they know, but like what they were
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: like when you know, they were their parents' ages. So
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: I wrote it for my kids, and I wrote it
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: for myself. You know, I'm a firm believer in therapy.
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: I have been for a number of years, and as
• 4:43
  Speaker 4: is frequently the case, when you talk to a licensed professional,
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: you discover that a lot of your hang ups in
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: life go back to your childhood and go back to
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: mom and go back to dad. And so, you know,
• 4:56
  Speaker 4: during the pandemic, it was cathartic for me, and so
• 5:00
  Speaker 4: I wrote it to help me sort of understand. So
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: I wrote it for a number of different reasons. But
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: you know, we don't celebrate fatherhood a lot, and for me,
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: it was also a way to celebrate fatherhood.
• 5:16
  Speaker 3: What's and All?
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: The book starts with this sentence. My father was born
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty in a federal prison in West Virginia.
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: That's a heavy burden to carry into life. But he
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: and I never talked about it, not for decades. So
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: much seemed unexpressed and unspoken between you two. And after
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: not having talked about anything of real, real substance, or
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: sort of overlooking that huge aspect of life, how did
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: you approach having these really difficult conversations with him?
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: I used the book as an excuse. It was actually
• 5:51
  Speaker 4: pretty genius. I was like, you, Pops, I'm working on
• 5:54
  Speaker 4: this book. I'm a journalist. I have to ask these questions.
• 5:57
  Speaker 4: And it's funny because I at first it was a tactic,
• 6:01
  Speaker 4: and then, you know, after the second or third session,
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: I realized that it was I should have come up
• 6:07
  Speaker 4: with his idea years ago to ask him all of
• 6:10
  Speaker 4: these questions that I had wanted to ask my entire life.
• 6:14
  Speaker 4: And this time I was able to hide behind the
• 6:18
  Speaker 4: veil of journalism. But it was it was difficult at first,
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: but the more we talked, the more questions I asked.
• 6:29
  Speaker 4: It sort of became obvious to me that my dad
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: he wanted to talk about some of this stuff. It
• 6:35
  Speaker 4: was as if he had been waiting to answer some
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: of these questions about, you know, why he was such
• 6:43
  Speaker 4: a garbage father for so long, and he wanted to
• 6:47
  Speaker 4: talk about addiction, and he wanted to talk about, you know,
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: when he was a little boy, and how his father
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: was exponentially worse than he ever was.
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: He wanted to an he I think he wanted to
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: set the.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: Record straight, you know, on your journalist You've found this
• 7:03
  Speaker 4: to be true over the years. Sometimes when you sit
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: down and talk to people, you discover that they really
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: want to have the conversation. I mean, there's been stuff
• 7:14
  Speaker 4: that's like pinned up and they just want to they
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: want to get it out, and they want to get
• 7:18
  Speaker 4: it out, oftentimes to an objective interviewer. They but for me,
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: that's what was different. I Mean, we were both so
• 7:26
  Speaker 4: close to the subject matter. I had to sometimes work
• 7:30
  Speaker 4: to get him to let his guard down, but once
• 7:32
  Speaker 4: he did, it was the best, probably the best interview
• 7:36
  Speaker 4: I've ever had.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: I was thinking about how many people make it from
• 7:41
  Speaker 1: South Carolina to the world stage unless you're in the
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: military or you play sports, it's pretty rare. Do you
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: feel like his incarceration, his being absent, propelled you forward
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: in any way or do you feel like it hindered you.
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: Oh, there's no question.
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: I wouldn't be here if I had grown up with
• 8:03
  Speaker 4: the Heathcliff Huxtable, no question.
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: No.
• 8:06
  Speaker 4: I think more often than not, we're shaped by the
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: bad things that happened. I think we're shaped more by
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: the mountains that we climbed, the struggles that we overcome.
• 8:18
  Speaker 4: You know, I spent more time than most trying to
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: get my dad to pay attention to me, to realize
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: how cool I was. It does make you strive harder
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: and want to do more, you know, the captain of
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: the debate team. And I did all these great things
• 8:33
  Speaker 4: in high school and then started out of college at
• 8:38
  Speaker 4: a local news station, and again, some of it, thankfully
• 8:42
  Speaker 4: it was the result of therapy. But there came a
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: point in my life where I did realize I'm trying
• 8:48
  Speaker 4: to prove something to my dad and my mom and
• 8:53
  Speaker 4: other people, like I was living for all these other
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: folks to get them to think that I was so
• 8:58
  Speaker 4: awesome and great. And you know, fortunately it worked out,
• 9:02
  Speaker 4: but for a while it didn't, and for a while
• 9:05
  Speaker 4: I was living for other people. People like to talk
• 9:09
  Speaker 4: about good examples, and don't get me wrong, good examples
• 9:12
  Speaker 4: are prayer amount. I'm not dismissing the good example. I
• 9:16
  Speaker 4: would just maintain that bad examples can be just as powerful,
• 9:22
  Speaker 4: if not more powerful, in certain circumstances.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: Like I knew for a long time, I didn't want
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: to be like that guy. You know, I don't want
• 9:31
  Speaker 3: to be like my father in any way, and so
• 9:34
  Speaker 3: you know, he was here. I busted my ass to
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: go this.
• 9:40
  Speaker 4: Way in the opposite direction, and you know, fortunately it
• 9:43
  Speaker 4: served me well. But no, had he, you know, been
• 9:47
  Speaker 4: the kind of dad that I wanted him to be.
• 9:51
  Speaker 4: You and I aren't having this podcast moment right now.
• 9:54
  Speaker 4: And it's funny how that works in life, right, Like
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: you just you can resent something and someone for so
• 10:00
  Speaker 4: long and then you wake up one morning and you're
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: and you realize.
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: Oh God, had it not been for that?
• 10:08
  Speaker 4: And I've said this before when I interview people, most
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: of the interesting people that I've come across in life,
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: they've overcome something, they've been through, They've been through a
• 10:19
  Speaker 4: valley or two. I don't I don't think that's an accident.
• 10:22
  Speaker 5: How do you think about it with your kids?
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: Because I hope that they don't have any hiccups, of course,
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: but as far as it goes right now they have
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: two loving parents and a stable upbringing. Do you think
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: about them being well adjusted or how do you think
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: about that?
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: I'll tell you how we think about It's funny because
• 10:42
  Speaker 4: we talk about it a lot. My children are too
• 10:44
  Speaker 4: well adjusted. Like the biggest struggle that they have is
• 10:51
  Speaker 4: what's going to be in their lunch box. They were
• 10:55
  Speaker 4: we're rearing soft children. And and we've we've done what
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: we typically do as a society. We've overcorrected. You know,
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: my mom was a school teacher, my dad was a
• 11:06
  Speaker 4: mail clerk. There wasn't a bunch of money lying around
• 11:09
  Speaker 4: the house. And our children they don't want for anything,
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: and they associate with other children who don't really want
• 11:19
  Speaker 4: for anything.
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: And so what we've started to do is create artificial.
• 11:25
  Speaker 4: Obstacles, like what artificial mountains for them to climb? Like,
• 11:31
  Speaker 4: you know, we'll lie sometimes and tell them we're out
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: of something in the fridge. To god, we don't have
• 11:37
  Speaker 4: chicken nuggets tonight. Sorry, you're gonna have to eat what
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: we're eating, you know.
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: Oh my god, I.
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: Don't believe we're having turkey me them. I mean, these
• 11:47
  Speaker 4: are some of the real meltdowns that we have. My
• 11:50
  Speaker 4: daughter got love her. She's six years old. Two nights ago,
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: I come into the house and she's had a full.
• 11:56
  Speaker 3: On meltdown, full on.
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: I mean, you were fought that like someone had executed
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: like her pet in front of her. She's you know,
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: and I and I had no situational awareness. I come
• 12:10
  Speaker 4: into the to the room, I'm like, sweety, I call
• 12:13
  Speaker 4: her sweet girl, sid sweet Girl's wrong?
• 12:14
  Speaker 3: What happened? Something happened at school? Baddy. We're like, daddy,
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: we are. We don't have any more Italian ice at all.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: I wanted it was Italian ice and were just and
• 12:31
  Speaker 4: now her brother belle ate the last one and no
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: one knew, so we couldn't buy anymore. But it's in
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: these moments that you realize we're failing.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: I am failing my children in that regard. But you know,
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: the hope is that as they get older, will be
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: able to create empathy in other ways.
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: You don't have kids, do you, No, I want them,
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: but I don't have them yet.
• 13:01
  Speaker 4: It's it's like your children are it's and no one
• 13:05
  Speaker 4: tells you this. You have to discover this on your own,
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: like everyone wants to do right by their kids, Like
• 13:11
  Speaker 4: you want your children to grow up but just a
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: little bit better than you did, And so you you
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: work toward that in ways large and small, Like my
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: kids take trips that I didn't.
• 13:23
  Speaker 3: Take until I was in my twenties.
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: Right, they're exposed to things and I wasn't exposed to
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: and until I was in my thirties. And you realize
• 13:33
  Speaker 4: at some point along the way, it's like, wait a minute,
• 13:35
  Speaker 4: you can go too far, Like you're you can create
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: a life that's perhaps just a bit too idyllic. And
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: one of my great fears is a parent, is it's
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: not like not providing for my children and not making
• 13:50
  Speaker 4: sure they have all of the opportunities that I didn't.
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: One of my great fears is that we're rearing a
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: son and a daughter that aren't going to be able
• 13:58
  Speaker 4: to deal with adversity. They're not going to be resilient.
• 14:01
  Speaker 4: You become resilient by overcoming shit and having to deal
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: with stuff and and and my kids aren't equipped yet
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: to do that. Like it's you know, we had a
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: story a couple of weeks ago on the Today Show
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: about this, like I think he was six years old
• 14:18
  Speaker 4: and he'd been stuck in the woods for like three
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: or four days, and the kid managed to like navigate
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: it and hide from there and find his own food
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: and and I started to hold in Savannah and they agreed.
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: They I was like, my kids would be dead, Like
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: if they were stuck in the woods for six hours,
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: like it just it'd be It'd be tragically.
• 14:42
  Speaker 5: And ice there. What are they going to do?
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 14:44
  Speaker 4: But the reality is then, you know, quite frankly, I'd
• 14:47
  Speaker 4: probably be dead too. So it's and so would you.
• 14:51
  Speaker 4: I can tell, well.
• 14:54
  Speaker 5: Gave it away, no, But You're right, I have no
• 14:56
  Speaker 5: survival skills.
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: I'm sure you've talked to a million people about this,
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: But I had almost no adversity in my life up
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: until I was like twenty five, and then I had
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: a ton of things hit and I had tools. So
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I feel like your kids are cultivating tools that maybe
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: you and they don't even know that they have. Yeah,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: that's the hope, right, One.
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: Of two things happens, as you've discovered, it seems when
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: terrible things happen in your life.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the terrible.
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: Thing either drags you down and you're never the same,
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: or that terrible thing fuels you in a way that
• 15:39
  Speaker 4: has gotten you to where you are now. For most
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: successful people, it's the latter, like the bad thing, and inevitably,
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: terrible things happen to all of us. But when you
• 15:49
  Speaker 4: can figure out how to use that to motivate you,
• 15:53
  Speaker 4: that's a superpower.
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: It is.
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, thanks for saying that. I want to go back
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: to your He worked in the postal service, and you
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: share a lot about his job, a lot of stories,
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: and I'm wondering if there's a specific memory about your
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: dad that you carry with you or that you reflect
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: on more than others.
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: There are a slew of them.
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: One does come to mind because this spoke to his
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: work ethic, and it also.
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: Spoke to how.
• 16:25
  Speaker 4: Cheap my father was, and when you have no idea
• 16:30
  Speaker 4: how cheap the man was, but he was cheaper than
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: most dads. So this would have been the summer between
• 16:37
  Speaker 4: my seventh and eighth grade year in middle school, and
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: we had some issues at the house with the toilet
• 16:47
  Speaker 4: and there was an issue with the sewer line, and
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: the sewer line was at that point, probably twenty years old,
• 16:54
  Speaker 4: and it needed to be replaced, and my dad had
• 16:56
  Speaker 4: a couple guys come out give some estimates. And this
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: is again summer in South Carolina, and Danielle, you didn't
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: grow up down south, but some are in South Carolina.
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: It's it's like the gates of Hell.
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: And from eight nine in the morning until six or
• 17:13
  Speaker 4: seven at night, it's like you go out for a run,
• 17:16
  Speaker 4: you get sweaty, and you take a shower, and you
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: get out a shower and you're still drenched in water,
• 17:23
  Speaker 4: and you go back outside you and there's.
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: You're just constantly sweating. It's for twelve hours. And so.
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: My dad was dissatisfied with the quotes, and so he
• 17:34
  Speaker 4: says to me, his twelve thirteen year old son, maybe
• 17:38
  Speaker 4: fourteen at that point, I can't remember, but he.
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: Said, oh, we can do this shit ourselves.
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: That was one of his favorite lines. And so he
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: worked third shift at that point, so he would get
• 17:49
  Speaker 4: home at like seven maybe eight, and he wanted me
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: to be up when he got home so we could
• 17:57
  Speaker 4: go out and dig up the yard from the house
• 18:02
  Speaker 4: to the street so you could uncover the sewer line.
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: And we were going to replace the pipe ourselves. At
• 18:09
  Speaker 4: that age, I didn't question my dad, but based on
• 18:12
  Speaker 4: his previous experience with things around the house, I knew
• 18:16
  Speaker 4: it wasn't going to go well. But my payment was
• 18:20
  Speaker 4: going to be a pair of rebop pumps. You may
• 18:23
  Speaker 4: be too young to remember the black and white rebound
• 18:26
  Speaker 4: pumps with the orange ball on the tongue, but back
• 18:29
  Speaker 4: in my day, that was one hundred and fifty dollars
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: pair of shoes, and it was almost worth it. So anyway,
• 18:36
  Speaker 4: we would get off my language, I can tell, and
• 18:41
  Speaker 4: I got up every morning and we dug up this
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: sewer line for two weeks, and naturally two weeks and
• 18:48
  Speaker 4: my father discovered that we were in over our heads
• 18:54
  Speaker 4: and he had to get the guys to come out
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: and bail us out. But during the course of that
• 18:58
  Speaker 4: two or three weeks, we had some great conversations and
• 19:01
  Speaker 4: we spent a lot of time talking about life and
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: his life, and it was just it was the conversation
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: almost made it worth it, almost made like passing out
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: in ninety eight degree heat worth it.
• 19:17
  Speaker 3: But that's that was a fond memory, you know. My father.
• 19:20
  Speaker 4: Also, my father used to drink and d drive, literally
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: drink and drive like he would have a budweiser in
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: one hand and the steering wheel and the other and
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: when he finished the budweiser, he'd light the cigarette and
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: smoke the cigarette and throw out the window and then
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: grab another one. And while we would drive drive around town.
• 19:40
  Speaker 4: This is before we know we actually knew the dangers
• 19:43
  Speaker 4: of drinking and driving. Back then, he just disregarded them.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: And I would sit in the front seat of his
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: nineteen seventy three Pontiac Leamans while he while he drove around.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: And some of my fondest memories were of him doing that.
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: And U's just kind of hanging and talking.
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: And it's funny because my therapist years ago said to me,
• 20:06
  Speaker 4: because I used to be really concerned about the content
• 20:09
  Speaker 4: of my conversations with my children, I really wanted to
• 20:12
  Speaker 4: make sure I was using like teachable moments to impart
• 20:17
  Speaker 4: wisdom on my kids in a deliberate way.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: And my therapist, who's a.
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: Parent, she would say, you know, Craig, ninety percent of
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: parenting is physically just being there, just being present, Like
• 20:35
  Speaker 4: you don't have to like ask all these questions this
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: and that, Like it's just like if you're around enough
• 20:41
  Speaker 4: if you're just literally around enough, your kids will talk
• 20:44
  Speaker 4: to you.
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: But more than that, they'll trust you because.
• 20:48
  Speaker 4: They come to know that no matter what, Mom and
• 20:52
  Speaker 4: Dad they're going to be there. I could screw up,
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: you know, I could you know, get a bad grade
• 20:58
  Speaker 4: or make a terrible mistake or but mom and Dad
• 21:01
  Speaker 4: they're going.
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: To be there for me because they've always been there.
• 21:04
  Speaker 4: And I think there there's I call it the ministry
• 21:07
  Speaker 4: of presence, and the ministry of presence. It's the older
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: I've gotten, the more I've come.
• 21:15
  Speaker 3: To realize that it's powerful.
• 21:18
  Speaker 4: Like a lot of times, like we like to we
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: like to think that, oh I gotta I gotta say
• 21:23
  Speaker 4: the right thing, or or what do they need to hear?
• 21:26
  Speaker 4: Or I want to make them And a lot of times,
• 21:28
  Speaker 4: especially for dudes like you, you just want somebody there,
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: like it's a it's a I am. I am so comfortable,
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: if not at peace in silence.
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: That it's a powerful thing. It really really is.
• 21:47
  Speaker 4: And we especially journalists, I think sometimes like you asked
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: me a question, I ask you a question, and you know,
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: you answer and I answer, and you know, we play
• 21:57
  Speaker 4: the tennis match back and forth, and it's the best
• 22:00
  Speaker 4: stuff I have ever gotten in interviews, in conversations is
• 22:06
  Speaker 4: when I just let that two or three second silence,
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: when I just sit in that because people feel compelled
• 22:12
  Speaker 4: to fill it, And a lot of times when they
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: feel that silence, it's with some suit pretty remarkable.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: Stuff, you know, when the great stuff comes out. I
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: learned that I used to be so uncomfortable with it.
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: When I am most uncomfortable, that's that's typically when I
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: met my best professionally and personally.
• 22:34
  Speaker 5: Wow.
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: So the last three men that I have dated seriously, Jesus,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: how many?
• 22:41
  Speaker 3: How many boyfriends have you had?
• 22:43
  Speaker 5: Okay, I'm thirty two first of all. Over the last.
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: I would say ten years. The three guys that I
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: have dated seriously all have not had present fathers.
• 22:55
  Speaker 5: I don't know what that means.
• 22:57
  Speaker 3: I think you know what it means.
• 22:59
  Speaker 5: This is not about me.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: However, you were trying to You're trying to heal the
• 23:04
  Speaker 4: broken Oh.
• 23:06
  Speaker 5: I don't know. Maybe maybe maybe you are.
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: You're trying to fill the vuid.
• 23:11
  Speaker 5: I don't think so.
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: I think I like people that have a depth of
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: feeling that lead with conversation, and when people have been
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: through hard things, it sometimes translates to that.
• 23:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anyway, the date on the apps not really, well,
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: you got to go on the apps. Everyone's on the
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: apps now.
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: I thank you. My mother will really appreciate you saying
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: all of this. She listens to the podcast and she's
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: really trying to get me married.
• 23:44
  Speaker 5: However, I only share that.
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: I mean, you're still you're very young. Thank you.
• 23:51
  Speaker 4: I don't know how they turned into a relationship podcast,
• 23:53
  Speaker 4: but go ahead.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry.
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: Well I share that to say that all three of them,
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: I have felt this gaping hole inside of them that
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: nothing can replace, no amount of love, not even children
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: can replace.
• 24:14
  Speaker 5: And it shows up in different ways.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering, as you were in your twenties and you
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: started dating, and I know you've talked about self acceptance
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: and love, how did it show up for you?
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: Oh? Oh god, that's a big question.
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: Let me preface it by saying, we're all broken, and
• 24:34
  Speaker 4: most of us are broken in myriad ways.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Some of us are better at hiding it than others,
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: but no, we're we all.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: We were all walking around broken, some of us in
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: many places. What I And it's funny you asked me
• 24:48
  Speaker 4: that question, and this is not hyperbole. I was I
• 24:52
  Speaker 4: was such a terrible boyfriend slash dater, slash whatever you
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: want to call it in my twenties that there have
• 25:01
  Speaker 4: been women that I have seen over the years.
• 25:05
  Speaker 3: I have apologized to them for my behavior.
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: In my mid twenties because looking back on it again
• 25:14
  Speaker 4: with the gift of you know, hindsight and being self
• 25:18
  Speaker 4: aware now like most most dudes aren't aren't worth a
• 25:23
  Speaker 4: damn until they're at least thirty, and that's fact. And
• 25:26
  Speaker 4: people can some guys can they present well. And I
• 25:31
  Speaker 4: would not have dated me before I was thirty one.
• 25:36
  Speaker 3: These guys are just I mean.
• 25:39
  Speaker 4: And I was the same way, and I was worse
• 25:42
  Speaker 4: because I was on local TV every night. So I thought,
• 25:45
  Speaker 4: oh wow, you know, I'm twenty two, twenty three, like
• 25:48
  Speaker 4: you know this, this young lady would be lucky to
• 25:52
  Speaker 4: like fall in love with me, or if it's a
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: Friday or Saturday night, fall in lust with me. And
• 25:58
  Speaker 4: so for four or five years walked around. You know,
• 26:02
  Speaker 4: I could not have been more self absorbed than arrogant
• 26:05
  Speaker 4: about everything.
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 26:10
  Speaker 4: For me, the void was again not to I'm not
• 26:15
  Speaker 4: blaming my father, because I also blame my mother a
• 26:18
  Speaker 4: little bit as well. You know, my mother, like a
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: lot of moms do, especially moms of young boys, especially
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: young boys of color.
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: Too.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: My mom, she really did poor everything she had into us,
• 26:34
  Speaker 4: me and my younger brother especially. She poured everything into it.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: Like at one point she was a school teacher who
• 26:40
  Speaker 4: picked up a second job. Who you know, it wasn't
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: like a It wasn't the kind of love that we
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: exhibit to our children, like we hug our children multiple
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: times a day, we tell them we love them, we
• 26:53
  Speaker 4: tell them how special they are, Like, that's not My
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: mom came from a different school of love. Like her
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: love was hard and tough, and if she hugged us
• 27:04
  Speaker 4: or if she said she loved us, we had either
• 27:07
  Speaker 4: graduated from high school or like gotten a college acceptance
• 27:12
  Speaker 4: letter or like we had done something spectacular. We earned
• 27:17
  Speaker 4: that shit, and my dad just never did so like
• 27:21
  Speaker 4: we didn't know. So it forced us to starve. And
• 27:27
  Speaker 4: so when I was in my twenties, I would date
• 27:31
  Speaker 4: women who, first of all, were nothing like my mother,
• 27:38
  Speaker 4: which wasn't a good thing because my mother is one
• 27:42
  Speaker 4: of the two best women that I know. But I deliberately,
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: you know, my mom was in church like two or
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: three times a week.
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I dated women that didn't go to church. We'll just
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: leave it at that.
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: And I I also I was and again this is
• 28:02
  Speaker 4: a result of therapy.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: I think because.
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: I did not get a lot of physical affection when
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: I was younger from either parent that I was attracted
• 28:14
  Speaker 4: to women that.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: That was their love language.
• 28:18
  Speaker 4: And so I would do this thing where I would
• 28:22
  Speaker 4: I would go from one extreme to the other. I
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: would date someone that I knew that I couldn't take
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: home to my family for a host of reasons for
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: a while, and then I would overcorrect by dating someone
• 28:33
  Speaker 4: that went to Bible study twice a week. And so
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: I found myself toggling between various forms of misery until
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: I got to a point in my life in my
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: thirties where I discovered that these women that I was,
• 28:52
  Speaker 4: they weren't the problem.
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: I was the problem. Once I found.
• 28:56
  Speaker 4: Out like who I really was, not who tended to
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: be to the world like once I like did and
• 29:04
  Speaker 4: it just took a year and a half. I had
• 29:07
  Speaker 4: to really spend some time on me, like what makes
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: me tick? What do I really like? What really drives me?
• 29:14
  Speaker 4: But most importantly, and this was what I had to
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: what what do I detest?
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: What don't I like?
• 29:22
  Speaker 5: What means?
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: Yes, I had to have a come to Jesus with myself, Like,
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: besides being rude to waiters, what did you detest? Oh?
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: I detested women and people, not just women, because I've
• 29:39
  Speaker 4: had to call my friend group over the years as well.
• 29:42
  Speaker 4: You have to have a code. I don't have to
• 29:45
  Speaker 4: agree with what your code is, but you have. You
• 29:48
  Speaker 4: have to have like court beliefs. You'd be surprised how
• 29:52
  Speaker 4: many people's court beliefs like shape shift and they mold
• 29:56
  Speaker 4: their beliefs to whoever they're hanging out with. And I
• 30:00
  Speaker 4: I spend a lot of time in my twenties hanging
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: out with people who did not value the same thing.
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: I value family, I value faith, I value a work ethic.
• 30:10
  Speaker 4: I value people who professionally are doing what they do
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: because they genuinely enjoy it, They love it, they feel
• 30:20
  Speaker 4: like they are responding to God's purpose for their life.
• 30:24
  Speaker 4: I spent a lot of time trying to vibe with
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: people who didn't subscribe to those core beliefs, and I
• 30:29
  Speaker 4: found myself trying to like shape.
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: And mold to them. And so you get to a point.
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: In your life where you just but for me, when
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: I started to realize that, like, mountains were moved really
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: and it's even like people are like, oh, professionally, like
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: to what do you attribute to your.
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: Success and blah blah blah.
• 30:50
  Speaker 4: I'm like, I found out earlier than most that I
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: had to be comfortable in my own skin. And one
• 31:00
  Speaker 4: of the highest praises for people who do what we do, Danielle.
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: When someone says to me, you know what, Craig, I
• 31:07
  Speaker 4: didn't realize that you're the same person off camera that
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: you are on camera, I'm like, well, who am I
• 31:14
  Speaker 4: supposed to be? Like, what's the other I don't there's
• 31:17
  Speaker 4: no alternative because I am the same person. I just
• 31:19
  Speaker 4: got back from a vacation except for my birthday with
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: three childhood friends.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: I don't have a lot of new friends.
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: I roll with the same people I've been rolling with
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: for thirty years because it served me well.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: It also means you're good at saying no because a
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: lot of people want to be your friend. So you're
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: good at boundaries.
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: Oh, I start with no, you do Oprah's like, oh,
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: start with yes. I don't disagree with Oprah a lot.
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: I'm like no, no, no, no, I start with no
• 31:49
  Speaker 4: because you can. Once you say yes, Danielle, you're.
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: Locked in, right, especially if you have the code of values.
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: You have to follow through on the yes.
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: You don't see me out, don't go out and do
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: a lot of stuff.
• 32:01
  Speaker 4: And it's you know what, you should charge people for
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: this because this is therapy for me.
• 32:08
  Speaker 5: You're so kind.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: My therapist told me that resentment is an unspoken no
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: that changed everything for me because if I was frustrated,
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: it was because I was saying yes too much.
• 32:21
  Speaker 3: You shouldn't say yes too much and also devalues your
• 32:24
  Speaker 3: time and it cheapens your brand. I agree, and I
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: can tell by those Jordan's behind you that your your
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: brand is. It's pretty impressive.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 32:34
  Speaker 5: That's really sweet.
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: Have you ever noticed how incorporating one or two small
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: daily actions can make a big impact on your mood
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: and your whole day? For me, it's taking a walk,
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: even if I'm tired or just go for a few blocks.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I try and go every day because it lifts my
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: mood and helps me feel alive and motivate and grateful.
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: Sometimes small daily actions can make a big difference. And
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: when it comes to caring for your hair, a little
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: goes a long way. Here's the thing. I'm so lucky
• 33:13
  Speaker 1: that with my job I get to work with some
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: of the best celebrity hairstylists in the whole country. I
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: always look at what they pull out of their kits
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: and what they use on my hair. I got introduced
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: to weigh products through them. Whether you have fine, medium
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: or thick hair, Way is just your type. No matter
• 33:32
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• 33:33
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• 33:35
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• 33:38
  Speaker 1: exactly what they need, helping you with multiple hair concerns
• 33:41
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  Speaker 1: single day, I use their medium shampoo and conditioner to
• 33:48
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• 33:52
  Speaker 1: also use the Detox shampoo about once a week to
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• 34:11
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  Speaker 2: you this.
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  Speaker 1: The way volume, spray and Moose has been a game
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• 35:16
  Speaker 1: for women who are listening, can you share what's unique
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: about the father son bond? I think the mother daughter
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: bond is really complicated. And on the podcast, I will
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: hear people say like afterwards, they'll message me, they'll break news.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: They don't say anything they'll talk about dating, they're okay
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: with it. If they speak about their mother, they'll email
• 35:41
  Speaker 1: me and say, can you take that part out?
• 35:43
  Speaker 5: I shouldn't have spoken about her like that.
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: It's the only thing people ask me to take out.
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: And so I'm so curious. I never get to talk
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: to anybody about what that father son bond.
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: Is like, I mean, you won't have to take any
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: of this out.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Thank you. You are exceptionally honest. It's unbelievable.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: Well, it's probably to my detriment. That's why I don't
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: do a lot of podcasts. But so the bond with
• 36:10
  Speaker 4: my father, I'll start with that one and then I'll
• 36:13
  Speaker 4: talk about the bar with my son. I think that
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: it's first of all, I think it's generational, and I
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: think for men of a certain age.
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: I'm forty four, just turned forty four. My father.
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: He did not emote, and he did not emote because
• 36:30
  Speaker 4: he wasn't capable of it.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: And it took me a while to realize that he
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: did not emote.
• 36:35
  Speaker 4: I remember the first time I ever saw my father
• 36:38
  Speaker 4: cry was when he was at his mother's funeral, my
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: grandmother's funeral in nineteen ninety five.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: I was like Oh wow, that does have tear ducks.
• 36:48
  Speaker 4: And I've probably since then seen him cry a couple
• 36:51
  Speaker 4: dozen times because as he's gotten older and as he's
• 36:54
  Speaker 4: gotten clean, he has discovered that he is capable of
• 36:58
  Speaker 4: emotions that he did not know exist.
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: So I think that father son bonds evolve.
• 37:06
  Speaker 4: And my my bond with my dad now is like
• 37:11
  Speaker 4: he'll call me up or sometimes he'll FaceTime.
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Me, which is which is even weirder.
• 37:16
  Speaker 4: But he'll he'll call me up and we'll talk about
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: either the game that was on the day before or
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: the game that's on while we're talking, and sports starts
• 37:26
  Speaker 4: the conversation and we go from that into you know,
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: what my kids are doing, what my wife's doing, what
• 37:34
  Speaker 4: I'm doing professionally, or what and But so sports is
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: the gateway. And I say that to say we we've
• 37:42
  Speaker 4: always had one thing in common. If you can find
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: the one thing that you have in common with your
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: father and use that as the springboard into conversations of substance,
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: that's that's a that's.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: A hack.
• 37:59
  Speaker 4: For me and myself. And it's funny because there was
• 38:02
  Speaker 4: this moment two weekends ago and he had two of
• 38:05
  Speaker 4: his buddy my son's nive.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: He's in the third.
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: Grade, which is it's a weird age because he's starting
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: to discover that his father's an embarrassment.
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: On some level, no chance, and he wants his independence.
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: And he and his buddies Luke and Brady, they were like,
• 38:24
  Speaker 4: they were playing or whatever. And one of the things
• 38:27
  Speaker 4: I love doing is I love evesdropping on my kids
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: because they know no hell no.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: But when you evesdrop on your children, you discover who
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: they really are.
• 38:38
  Speaker 5: True.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: And these three dudes, they're all in the third grade.
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: They were telling these nuts jokes.
• 38:46
  Speaker 5: You're kidding third grade and so so your son has
• 38:52
  Speaker 5: a great sense of humor. We've learned that.
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: Well, there was a part of me I was like, Oh,
• 38:57
  Speaker 4: should I be a dad and should I go oh
• 39:00
  Speaker 4: and like and say, hey, hey guys, we don't do
• 39:05
  Speaker 4: these nuts jokes in my house? Or should I remember
• 39:09
  Speaker 4: when I was in the third grade, how proud I
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: was of a good these nuts joke?
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: I did something that a buddy of mine suggested months ago.
• 39:24
  Speaker 3: I sat it out. And by that I mean there
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: are obviously.
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: Going to be times in the relationship between a father
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: and son where you have to step in and say hey,
• 39:35
  Speaker 4: that's a terrible idea, or hey, you really screwed this up.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: We need to figure out how to make this right.
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: Let me impart some wisdom on you.
• 39:43
  Speaker 4: I set it out, and I set it out in
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: part because I was proud, but also because if you
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: engage in every battle, then you lose the war. When
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: I talked to my son about important things, I needn't
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: take me seriously.
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: I don't need him to feel like, oh, here comes
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: dad again. Then I need him to to sort of,
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: you know, find his way. I don't want to be.
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: His friend, because I've seen up close how that goes wrong.
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: But I do want him to be the first person
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: that he comes to when when she hits the fan,
• 40:23
  Speaker 4: as it undoubtedly does all the time, and to build
• 40:27
  Speaker 4: that trust and to have that relationship. I can't go
• 40:31
  Speaker 4: cracking down on these nuts jokes, you know.
• 40:35
  Speaker 5: You absolutely can't.
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Also, everyone appreciates to get these nuts joke once in a.
• 40:40
  Speaker 5: While, That's what I said, especially if they're clever.
• 40:43
  Speaker 4: You know, right, I will say, like the jokes they
• 40:47
  Speaker 4: were telling, they were even good.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: It was like part of me wanted to get in
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: and correct.
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: Him then, and I'm like, oh, he'll tell his mom
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: and I'm.
• 40:57
  Speaker 5: Gonna get in trouble. I can't teach it better, That's right.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: I liked when you talked about confiding in Al Roker
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: over the pressure of helping your dad, and you said
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: that you see a lot of your dad in Al.
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: Did you end up having father figures throughout your career? Like,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: did anybody serve that role for.
• 41:19
  Speaker 5: You in maybe like in pieces?
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: Right, Yeah, it wasn't just one person.
• 41:24
  Speaker 4: It's funny because I'm convinced that that's God sent me
• 41:28
  Speaker 4: a number of angels along the way in the form of.
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: Father figures, and Roker is one of the current ones.
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: You know, Alan, I really bonded years ago on a
• 41:39
  Speaker 4: road trip to Maine and my dad was a he
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: was in a bad spot, yeah, and I had decided
• 41:47
  Speaker 4: I needed to get him into rehab. And it was
• 41:49
  Speaker 4: just me and Al in this camper driving to Maine,
• 41:53
  Speaker 4: and I'm on the phone with like different facilities and
• 41:56
  Speaker 4: I'm talking and Alan and I have talked about this
• 41:58
  Speaker 4: since then. He he said, he said to me, it's
• 42:01
  Speaker 4: like that's when I knew you were good people, when
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: I saw and heard the way that you cared about
• 42:06
  Speaker 4: your father, and you're trying to get him how you
• 42:08
  Speaker 4: were relentless.
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: But when I when I got to the Today's.
• 42:12
  Speaker 5: Show, did you feel like you were relentless.
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: Trying to get help from my dad? Yeah? No, No,
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: I think I'm probably not to sound whatever. I think.
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: I'm probably relentless in most things. And that was just
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: another I wasn't going to accept. No, I was going
• 42:32
  Speaker 4: to find the best place for him. And I think
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: I just got a chance to see and hear that
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: up close and appreciated that. But when I got to
• 42:39
  Speaker 4: the Today Shows years ago, the Today Shows, it's a
• 42:43
  Speaker 4: it's like a it's like a high school cafeteria.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: And you remember high.
• 42:49
  Speaker 4: School cafeterias and how tricky they could be in terms
• 42:53
  Speaker 4: of navigating that ecosystem. And you got your jock table
• 42:57
  Speaker 4: and your nerve table, and you got your student council table,
• 43:01
  Speaker 4: and you've got all these different groups and you're just
• 43:03
  Speaker 4: trying to You're just trying to eat your lunch. You're
• 43:06
  Speaker 4: just trying to fit in.
• 43:08
  Speaker 5: Craig mean Girls was written about my high school.
• 43:11
  Speaker 4: So I hear you, Ben, You'll have a hard time
• 43:14
  Speaker 4: believing that you weren't at the cool girls table.
• 43:17
  Speaker 3: But I'll play along.
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: But I was like, he was the he was the
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: guy at the table who was like, hey, come.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: Over here and sit with the rest of the nerds.
• 43:29
  Speaker 4: And I was like, oh, he sees me, and so
• 43:32
  Speaker 4: we hit it off immediately. And he's also been that
• 43:35
  Speaker 4: guy that along the way has pulled me aside and
• 43:37
  Speaker 4: be like hey, just saying, oh.
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: This is how this is done, and more importantly, this
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: is how it's not done.
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: And it's been it's been a mentorship that I value
• 43:51
  Speaker 4: and love, and he is one of my favorite human beings.
• 43:55
  Speaker 4: But I had an uncle, my father's oldest brother who
• 43:59
  Speaker 4: in my father that was dealing with addiction when I
• 44:02
  Speaker 4: was growing up. My uncle sort of took me under
• 44:04
  Speaker 4: his wing and made sure that I was getting the
• 44:07
  Speaker 4: example and support that I needed. I had a night
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: and my mother's brother, uncle Pop. You know, he was
• 44:16
  Speaker 4: also a shouting example. I've just I've had so many examples,
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: even teachers along the way, that thank God, I was
• 44:25
  Speaker 4: able to draw some things from them, large and small.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: Because that's the thing. Danielle like, people like, if you're
• 44:34
  Speaker 4: if you're lucky and blessed, you've got two great parents,
• 44:40
  Speaker 4: If you're lucky or blessed. Maybe you get one, but
• 44:45
  Speaker 4: most people, most people, kids, young people, adolescents, you're surrounded
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: by examples of what a father or mother should be
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: like and you got to tap into those. It's one
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: of the things that's always frustrated me is there are
• 45:02
  Speaker 4: there are expectations in our society and their country, like
• 45:06
  Speaker 4: we want, especially men, especially black and brown men, like
• 45:11
  Speaker 4: we want them to be good fathers, and we talk
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: about absent fathers blah blah blah. It is it is
• 45:19
  Speaker 4: wholly unrealistic to expect someone to be something that they've
• 45:26
  Speaker 4: never seen before. And we do that time and time again,
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: Like we expect like children who have grown up like
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: around addiction, surrounded by addiction, if you come from.
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: A family of addicts.
• 45:41
  Speaker 4: Your third generation, and then we're like, oh, they should
• 45:44
  Speaker 4: they should clean themselves up.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: Well, that's that's that's not.
• 45:47
  Speaker 4: A realistic expectation. And we continue, and I think social
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: media's probably exacerbated it to a certain extent, but we
• 45:54
  Speaker 4: do that. And one of the watershed moments for me
• 46:00
  Speaker 4: in my life is when I realized that I was expecting.
• 46:04
  Speaker 3: My dad to be something that he had not experienced.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Or scene well, you want to write about like romanticizing fatherhood.
• 46:14
  Speaker 1: Did you mean like you're in your your father or
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: did you mean romanticizing fatherhood in terms of your kids
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: my dad?
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: You know, I grew up, like a lot of kids,
• 46:25
  Speaker 4: watching Heathcliff Huxtable on Thursday and Night. You know, you know,
• 46:28
  Speaker 4: there was a Ward Cleaver, and I grew up watching
• 46:31
  Speaker 4: all these TV examples of fathers, and I thought, oh,
• 46:35
  Speaker 4: my dad should be like this.
• 46:37
  Speaker 3: Why is my dad not like this? You know, and
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: once you once you have your own children, yeah, you
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: realize we're just we're all doing the best that we
• 46:48
  Speaker 3: can with what we've got. And that's it.
• 46:50
  Speaker 4: Like, no, no one wants to be a bad parent.
• 46:55
  Speaker 4: You're not like in the delivery room as a mother
• 46:58
  Speaker 4: or father and the child's there, they're like, God, I
• 47:00
  Speaker 4: can't wait to script this kid.
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: Like, no one thinks that way.
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: But there's a huge difference between being a parent and
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: just being a father, Like you can have a father and.
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: Yes, but a lot of those guys, I would venture
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: to say, the overwhelming majority of them, they don't know
• 47:19
  Speaker 4: how like you're not born.
• 47:22
  Speaker 3: I think moms a lot of most for I don't know, it's.
• 47:27
  Speaker 4: Genetic or when you bring life into the world, like
• 47:31
  Speaker 4: there's this innate like you that becomes your single most
• 47:36
  Speaker 4: important responsibility to love care. And I think for a
• 47:40
  Speaker 4: lot of guys it's a little different, you know. It's
• 47:43
  Speaker 4: it's a little we don't have that instant intimate connection.
• 47:49
  Speaker 4: We have to develop it. And for a lot of guys,
• 47:52
  Speaker 4: it's hard because we didn't see it and we didn't
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: experience it. By the way, I'm not trying to make
• 47:57
  Speaker 4: excuses for mediocre dads.
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: All I'm saying is.
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: It's a lot harder for some dads when they haven't
• 48:06
  Speaker 4: been around it.
• 48:07
  Speaker 3: You've got it. Sounds like you've got a pretty good
• 48:09
  Speaker 3: relationship with your parents.
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: I do.
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: I was really lucky. But I hear exactly what you're saying.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: I think we talk, especially in the generation I grew
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: up in, we talked so much about what it means
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: to be a woman and girl power, and I find
• 48:25
  Speaker 1: a lot of young men struggling, and I don't think
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: that we talked a lot about what it means to
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: be a man. And I have a feeling that's why
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: so many people felt connected to your words and your
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: story and your book. I know you do a series
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: on the Today Show called Dad's Got This, and you've
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: written about all the types of fathers.
• 48:44
  Speaker 5: That you've been able to meet doing the series.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Is there a specific challenge that you feel like unifies
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: these dads.
• 48:52
  Speaker 5: Have you seen a through line?
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: Yes? I have. That's a really good question. You're very
• 48:57
  Speaker 3: good at this. You should do this for a living.
• 49:00
  Speaker 4: Through line is connection, and by that I mean finding
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: that that one way and if you're lucky, ways to
• 49:10
  Speaker 4: connect with your child, whether it's a son or a daughter.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: And you know, you know, if we're being honest here,
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: I've never had trouble connecting with my son.
• 49:18
  Speaker 3: I coaches basketball team.
• 49:20
  Speaker 5: You do, yeah, Yeah, that's so cool.
• 49:23
  Speaker 3: Well, it depends on it. It depends on the week something.
• 49:26
  Speaker 5: There's no way he's embarrassed of you if you're coaching.
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: But we connect over sports.
• 49:31
  Speaker 4: We connect over like laughing at silly things because a
• 49:36
  Speaker 4: lot of it right right, we do.
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: I know it's sad, and we just connect.
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: We also connect in silence, like he loves just sitting
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: there saying nothing, watching a movie, so we can we connect.
• 49:51
  Speaker 4: I have found it more difficult to find the ways
• 49:54
  Speaker 4: in which I connect to my daughter because she is,
• 49:58
  Speaker 4: you know, and I do you know, I don't. I'll
• 50:01
  Speaker 4: let her paint my nails and we'll do tea parties
• 50:04
  Speaker 4: and you know, we'll do we'll shoot.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: That, we'll do I'll do whatever she wants to do.
• 50:10
  Speaker 4: But the instant connection isn't there yet, so I'm still
• 50:15
  Speaker 4: working on ways too to connect with her. And I
• 50:21
  Speaker 4: think that the dad's got this series, you know, one
• 50:23
  Speaker 4: of the one of the through lines is all of
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: these dads have found usually pretty unique ways to connect
• 50:32
  Speaker 4: with their children.
• 50:33
  Speaker 3: And we profiled this guy.
• 50:35
  Speaker 4: His wife had gotten sick and his daughter was really
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: into dance, and they didn't want to like pull her
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: out of like dance, so he became like a dance dad.
• 50:45
  Speaker 4: So he had to learn how to do her makeup
• 50:47
  Speaker 4: and how to do her hair, and he's building sets
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: for these elaborate dance recitals.
• 50:51
  Speaker 5: Amazing.
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: I you know, I.
• 50:53
  Speaker 4: Profiled the guy whose whose son came out and and
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: and was really nervous about it and he was gay,
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: and the dad, the dad was like the next thing
• 51:04
  Speaker 4: I knew. I'm at like pride rallies and pride marches,
• 51:08
  Speaker 4: and I've become like this LGBTQ Plus advocate but all
• 51:13
  Speaker 4: of these dads had found unique ways to connect with
• 51:16
  Speaker 4: their children, and I really think, I just I think
• 51:20
  Speaker 4: that's one of the that's one of the commonalities of
• 51:24
  Speaker 4: the journeys of parenthood.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: Like we all just want to just connect with our kids.
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: That's it.
• 51:30
  Speaker 4: Like I don't need you to to like me all
• 51:33
  Speaker 4: the time, but I do need you to want to
• 51:36
  Speaker 4: hang out with me from time to time, you know.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: And I mean you write in the book about the
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: joy of fatherhood and that people don't talk about that enough,
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: which I think was so beautiful and spot on.
• 51:50
  Speaker 4: It's so rewarding. And I tell people all the time
• 51:52
  Speaker 4: it's of the things. And I get a lot of
• 51:55
  Speaker 4: joy out of my job. I do, like I've got,
• 51:59
  Speaker 4: you know, at one of the best gigs in the business.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: And I know that it's not lost on me. And
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: I brought my son in about three weeks ago for
• 52:08
  Speaker 4: bringing your kid to work. I get emotional talking about it. Wow,
• 52:14
  Speaker 4: that's weird. So I bring him in for bringing your
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: kid to work day. And at one point he's like
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: doing this thing with like Leicester Lester Hoole and like
• 52:23
  Speaker 4: Jimmy Fallon, and he's like interviewing Jimmy and you know,
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: and interviewing Leicester and I'm like, god, you know this
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: is this is really really cool, you know and so
• 52:34
  Speaker 4: oh God this and I'm like, god, you know this
• 52:38
  Speaker 4: is you know how it's supposed to be like your son,
• 52:41
  Speaker 4: you know, respecting what you do for work, but also
• 52:45
  Speaker 4: like thinking you're cool.
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: And you know.
• 52:47
  Speaker 4: I know that two or three years from now he's
• 52:49
  Speaker 4: going to like hate me or not hate me, but
• 52:53
  Speaker 4: but be embarrassed by me ninety percent of the time.
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: But in that moment or in those moments at least,
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: My god, this is this is a pretty good life.
• 53:03
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna have to end your part. I'm gonna have to.
• 53:05
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna end it now because I just cried and
• 53:07
  Speaker 4: I don't I'm not a I don't emote.
• 53:09
  Speaker 3: I'm not a man that's capable of great emotion.
• 53:12
  Speaker 5: You want therapy, You're so evolved, Yes.
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: I am, but I still don't like to do it
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: on camera.
• 53:17
  Speaker 5: Did you see little you and him?
• 53:19
  Speaker 4: Or what I did? I did what I did? I
• 53:23
  Speaker 4: did see little me and him. I was a high
• 53:27
  Speaker 4: school reporter. I worked for the local TV station when
• 53:30
  Speaker 4: I was you know, fifteen, sixteen years old, and so
• 53:33
  Speaker 4: I was like, oh God, I hope he's not catching
• 53:35
  Speaker 4: that bug.
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: It'd be great if he went to med school.
• 53:37
  Speaker 5: Or yeah, it's such a hard road, right You're life.
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: It is, and people don't know, Danielle.
• 53:44
  Speaker 4: People have no idea that you know, my first job
• 53:47
  Speaker 4: out of college, I was making less than tuition at
• 53:49
  Speaker 4: my college and I lived with my parents, and you know.
• 53:53
  Speaker 3: I would steal toilet paper from them and.
• 53:57
  Speaker 4: To my grandma's house for meals because I loved it,
• 54:00
  Speaker 4: but also because I couldn't afford food.
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: So, you know, people don't like to talk about the struggle.
• 54:07
  Speaker 4: Parenthood's a great thing, fatherhood, especially when you can take
• 54:12
  Speaker 4: some solace and know it that you broke in a
• 54:15
  Speaker 4: generational curse.
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: You know, that makes me emotional. I have two rapid
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: fire questions. What is a book that has changed your life?
• 54:25
  Speaker 1: Something you think everybody should read the book.
• 54:27
  Speaker 4: That I wrote, not because I'm trying to sell them,
• 54:29
  Speaker 4: but because it was the most cathartic thing I've ever done.
• 54:32
  Speaker 4: And I still look forward to the day when my
• 54:36
  Speaker 4: children and grandchildren are able to pick it up and
• 54:39
  Speaker 4: learn a lot about their grandfather and great grandfather and
• 54:44
  Speaker 4: also a lot about me, you write a lot of
• 54:46
  Speaker 4: things down that you would never be able to say,
• 54:49
  Speaker 4: and the same was true for me.
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: So yeah, it was my book.
• 54:54
  Speaker 4: And it's funny because people bought it. And I was
• 54:56
  Speaker 4: pleasantly surprised that a lot of people bought the book.
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: But I didn't.
• 55:00
  Speaker 4: I was very clear with the publisher because you don't
• 55:03
  Speaker 4: make it, by the way, I think there's a common misconception,
• 55:06
  Speaker 4: you don't make a lot of money writing books unless
• 55:08
  Speaker 4: you're like JK. Rowling or James Patterson or like six
• 55:12
  Speaker 4: or seven other people.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: That's not why you do it. Barack Obama, Yes, yes,
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: so I didn't.
• 55:18
  Speaker 4: I didn't do it to like make money or even
• 55:20
  Speaker 4: extend my brand as some people like to I wrote.
• 55:25
  Speaker 4: I literally wrote the book for three people, my father, myself,
• 55:31
  Speaker 4: and either addicts or people who have grown up around addiction.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: That's it.
• 55:35
  Speaker 4: Those are the three audiences. I just didn't fully appreciate
• 55:38
  Speaker 4: how many people could identify with the latter group.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: So growing up, I'd ask my dad, how, like, what
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: can I get you for Father's Day.
• 55:47
  Speaker 5: He's not a stuffed person.
• 55:49
  Speaker 1: He wants for nothing, And he would look at my
• 55:52
  Speaker 1: brother and I and he'd be like I just want
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: to be left alone for the day.
• 55:58
  Speaker 5: What is the ideal way for you to spend Father's Day?
• 56:01
  Speaker 3: Your father and I have a lot in comments.
• 56:07
  Speaker 4: I wish that they would ask me what I wanted,
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: and maybe they'll listen to the podcast. I just I
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: want to I want to nap. Yeah, I want to
• 56:16
  Speaker 4: be able to have not one, but two bourbons with
• 56:19
  Speaker 4: three ice qus.
• 56:21
  Speaker 5: That's so solid, Carolina of you.
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: Yes, I know, I know.
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: And I want to go play nine holes, not eighteen,
• 56:28
  Speaker 4: because that blows a whole day. I just want to
• 56:31
  Speaker 4: go play nine holes of golf with two or three
• 56:34
  Speaker 4: people that I enjoy. I should write that down and
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: send that to my wife.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: You should, You should email her. So I have a
• 56:41
  Speaker 1: card deck that I'm going to send you, but it's
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: fifty two. So Larry King was my mentor, and after
• 56:47
  Speaker 1: he passed, I put he was so innately curious, insatiably curious,
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: and I put together fifty two of my favorite questions
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: in a game kind of in honor of him.
• 56:58
  Speaker 4: Oh that's good, Tell me, would stop stop that one.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: Everybody always gets the question that they're meant to get.
• 57:06
  Speaker 1: What is the title of your memoir?
• 57:08
  Speaker 5: For this season? Of your life, oh.
• 57:10
  Speaker 4: For this season of my life. Mm hmmm, sit still,
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: mm hmmm, sit still. Okay, Yeah, I have really worked
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: on that, and I finally feel like I'm getting to
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: a point where I'm comfortable and stillness and like being
• 57:31
  Speaker 4: where I am and trusting it's where I'm supposed to be.
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: You know, you've been in this business a long time.
• 57:36
  Speaker 4: I mean everyone's always striving and trying to do more
• 57:40
  Speaker 4: and trying.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: To get here.
• 57:41
  Speaker 4: And you get to a point where you realize, you
• 57:45
  Speaker 4: know where I am is Okay, there are a lot
• 57:48
  Speaker 4: of people who would love to be where I am.
• 57:51
  Speaker 5: That's pretty awesome.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: I wish you stillness, I wish you peace and a
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: great Father's Day. I want to thank the people that
• 58:03
  Speaker 1: make the show possible, Colleen O'Neill, Jill Salama, Karrie O'Keefe,
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: and Phil speed Tech. Okay, you know what time it is.
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: Today's a good day. To have a good day. I'll
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: see you next week.