Latest / Making Shooters Better / The Dangerous Gap Between Shooting Skill and Real-World Readiness

Transcript

The Dangerous Gap Between Shooting Skill and Real-World Readiness · Making Shooters Better

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_02: With a pressure dressing where the tourniquet went around the neck and then across their chest like a sea belt under their arm.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_02: And then I could tighten this the tourniquet to hold the pressure dressing in place for transport.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_02: Once I was able to control the bleeding to a point where survivability was the percentage went up, but I wanted to keep direct pressure, so I had the pressure dressing on the carotid and I wrapped the tourniquet across it and then underneath their arm and then tightened it.
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_00: What if being a great shot isn't enough to save your life or the life of someone you love?
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: My guest today is Ben Bergamini, a former Division I football player whose career has taken him through law enforcement, emergency medical services training, and more than a decade coaching firearms with Haley Strategic.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: And across those very different worlds, Ben has learned something every shooter needs to hear.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_00: Being good with a gun and being prepared to save a life are not necessarily the same thing.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: In this conversation, we're going to challenge some assumptions about firearms training, including why experienced shooters often avoid practicing the skills they can need the most, and why, on one occasion, only three officers from a department of 75 showed up for an opportunity to train with their firearms.
• 1:28
  SPEAKER_00: We'll also explore what happens when shooting isn't the answer, why knowing how to stop a catastrophic bleed could absolutely make the difference in saving someone's life, and what Ben's personal experience responding to real medical emergencies has taught him about teamwork and preparation under pressure.
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_00: Because when everything goes wrong, the question isn't simply how well you can shoot.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's how well you've prepared for everything else.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Making Shooters Better, brought to you by Laser Ammo.
• 1:57
  SPEAKER_00: Let's roll the episode.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ben, hello, mate, and welcome to the podcast.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Terry.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you having me on today.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you making the time.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: I know you travel a lot to shoot and to teach shooting, so uh grabbing you and getting you in the hot seat has been a goal of mine for a while.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: So how old were you when you first started shooting, mate?
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Oh wow, probably like six.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: I distinctly remember with my granddad shooting just a semi-automatic rifle, um, like an old Marlin shooting bottles in a rock quarry, sitting on his lap, you know, just all I did was press the trigger and he held the rifle type of deal.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_02: That was that was my first memory of of of shooting.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh my father was in the Navy, but he was never big in firearms.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: Um you know, I I think he did have a a handgun, but was never big into firearms um at all.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_02: So I spent most of my time growing up shooting with my my granddad and and my uncles.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: What a great memory though to spend time with your granddad doing that.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: It it was.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_02: You know, I think about it all the time, just to think about first time pressing the trigger to, you know, things I've done since then.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: So uh I think about that all the time.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I bet.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm not necessarily that familiar with Marlon.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_00: What caliber is that?
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's a 22, just to, you know, rim fire, you know, pull the pull the tube out, load the rounds into the tube, and it's you know, just just an old old school type of type of semi-automatic, you know, rim fire 22.
• 3:39
  SPEAKER_02: It was, you know, nothing nothing crazy.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_00: So that's that's what I started on.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's funny.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: I think I had someone bring something similar to that with 22s in a tube when I was prepping for Topshot.
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I was very fortunate.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: I had a lot of people with you know a lot of different firearms, and they found out it was going to be on the show.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_00: They're like, well, you need to practice with everything.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_00: So every Saturday morning I'd be at my local range.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: At that point, it was in Winston-Salem in North Carolina, and people would bring in these things.
• 4:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember somebody handed me, and I was like, look like a kid's rifle, right?
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this thing's tiny.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: But he's like, Yes, but you need to be familiar with how it works.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so it was one of those load it in the spring-loaded rod, and then rack it and go.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Or at least that's how I remember.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's funny.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_00: Brilliant memories.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So you've had a very eclectic career from law enforcement and football all the way through to medical training.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about being prepared today, how has your definition of that changed, do you think, since early days in football, law enforcement, and EMS?
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, uh, teamwork and teammates have been instilled with me through athletics all through my life.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and that is transferred to my children as well.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_02: I have two college athletes now of my three kids.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but being a part of a team from an early age all the way up through Division I football, um, to my team at Haley Strategic, to my EMS team, to my law enforcement guys, I tried to instill that teamwork in everything I do because you're only as good as the people that are around you, um, in my opinion.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: And teamwork, teammate, I can't accomplish the things that I want to accomplish without having solid backing from whomever it may be.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_02: And it's been a huge part of my life.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um, athletics has um taught me how to be a good teammate, and I think not just performance for my my own sake, but performance for the for the team.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_02: I don't want to lay anybody down, and and that has been you know instilled on my children, um, and they take that very, very seriously.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: They're always worried about they're worried about the team before they are themselves.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I think that that carries a lot of weight and lots of aspects of life.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, depending on the situation, you can't get through stuff without having a solid team around you and training together to accomplish whatever the goal may be for for that day.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh, and it's helped me a business too.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, it's you gotta have solid structure and people you can count on because they're counting on you, and if you can't count on them, then neither the two of them are gonna work.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: So agreed.
• 6:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I like to say I'm English by birth and American by choice.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_00: So what does Division I actually mean?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_00: Um educate me.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_02: So uh uh NCAA separates things in Division III, division two, and when I played college football back in 1993, um they had Division I A and Division I AA.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_02: And I went to Western Carolina University real division one double A school, and now it's they call it FCS Football College Subdivision and FBS, which is football bowl subdivision, like the big boys, Alabama, Georgia.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: Um so my daughter plays at Meredith, plays lacrosse at Meredith College, a division three school, and it has to do with the size of the of the institution.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_02: My son plays lacrosse at North Greenville University down in South Carolina, they're Division II school.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but it has to do with the amount of students that are that go to any you know particular school.
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's a lot to do with it.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um but the higher up in divisions you go, the more competitive it is.
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um so um that's basically it.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um but you know, Western Carolina um is still in the football college subdivision.
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_02: They're not a big boy yet, but I think they're working towards that.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_02: A lot of things have changed since I've been there.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_02: So um but we I mean we played large teams.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, we played Georgia, North Carolina State, Florida State, Kansas.
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um we played the the majors, but our conference was like Furman and Georgia Southern and Appalachian State and East Tennessee State.
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um so schools that are known but not competing for a big stage national championship type of deal.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: So what position did you play?
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_02: I played offensive guard.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm not the tallest I'm not the tallest guy.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um I'm right at six foot, but when I played college football, I was 295 pounds.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um now I'm 190 pounds.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_02: So but I was super fast.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_02: So typically offensive linemen are are 6'2, 6'3, 6'6, and all those everybody around me was was these monsters.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but I was fast in our offense.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_02: We had a lot of pulling of the guards around the end to to lead for our backs.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's why I was in that role.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: So um, but people go, you played offensive line?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_02: You're not tall, you're not tall enough.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, second guess and it yeah.
• 9:21
  SPEAKER_00: So it's funny because one of the things after I moved to the States, I couldn't get nearly as much of the rugby games that I really wanted.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And that was rugby was a game I played predominantly just through the military and uh and high school actually.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: And it's it it was the closest thing I could find.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_00: And then the first time I met someone, he played uh college football.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was teaching him Muay Thai, and this guy came into the class, and he was six, seven and a half, and he said he was a lineman for one of the schools.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: He wasn't doing that then, he'd graduated college and was now working his own business or something.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: But I just remember this guy rolling up at 6'7, and I'm, you know, a stout 5'9, you know, on a good day.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember him walking up, going, Hey, I really want to learn some Muay Thai.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And all I could think in my head was, when this dude kicks me, I don't care how thick the pads are, this is gonna hurt.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's gonna hurt.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny because I kept thinking to myself, okay, he's a big lad.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'll probably be able to wear him out, right?
• 10:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'll put the pads on, we'll move around a little bit.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: His stamina was off the bloody charts.
• 10:24
  SPEAKER_00: It was amazing.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: I like I even with the pads, I'm like, good lord, Tony, you're not getting tired.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_00: But he had stamina for days.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: He kept up his training after getting out of college.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_00: But for a big dude, and I kept thinking, right, there's a whole line of people like that playing, obviously, in you know, college and then the NFL.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm thinking it's just must just be a smorgasbord of physical freaks at that standard as for guys that size.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_02: I mean, the guy next to me was 6'6, the my center was 6'3, and I'm right at six foot, and then the other side was a similar size.
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_02: So I was like the smurf of the offensive line when I when I played, but uh, you know, I was strong and I was fast, so yeah, I uh and I could get low.
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that that that helped in a lot of a lot of situations.
• 11:13
  SPEAKER_00: So it doesn't matter how low you could get, being a short ass, I could get lower.
• 11:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it's funny because on when I was playing rugby, I was out on the wing, and then I got a little sturdier.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Well that's what we'll call it, and I went to in outside center, and then it was inside center, and it, you know, I still had good speed, but it was during one of our impromptu games, I can't remember who we were playing, one of the other um commando units, and we sort of ad hoc just pulled this team together from we'd been on deployment for a bunch of months.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: We came back in, they're like, we're putting a team together, you're playing.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, that's fantastic.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then somebody during the course of that game, the prop got injured, and they're like, we're gonna put you in.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, I'm sorry, what?
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because that's like in the scrum.
• 11:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm like, you've got to you've got to kill me.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: These guys are monsters.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: And that was my last game of rugby.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_00: I decided getting crushed in the scrum was not very an attractive proposition, but it's funny.
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_02: I'd never experienced rugby, but I've always wanted to.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: I just hadn't had the right opportunity, so I'd I would like to experience it.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm too damn old for that stuff now.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: Back then I could bounce and you know you recover pretty quick.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: But it was such a great game.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And it it it's always been funny to me when I watch soccer, and these guys are rolling around holding their shins and barely got touched.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, could you imagine doing that in the middle of, in your case, a football game?
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: In my game, rugby.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_00: Rugby, you got an injury, they gave you a slice of orange and said, suck it up, buttercup, you're back out there in two minutes.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_02: Get back out there.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_02: Rub some dirt on it.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_02: This is this is not a not a game for the weary.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: That's right.
• 12:46
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it's right.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_02: Get out of there.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_00: So I I've never been a big fan of soccer.
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_00: I just rugby and then obviously now football, I think it's those are great sports.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've never been a big fan of soccer.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Shooting fast, particularly, is fun.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: Progress is easy to measure, but how do we know as shooters whether we're preparing for what we might face or mostly just practicing what we enjoy doing or what we enjoy doing well?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_02: So when we talk to students, you know, I'm gonna be specific with Haley Strategic Partners.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you know, we have a vast demographic of students that come through our curriculums, which is great because one thing we like to say is it's also a shooting class.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_02: Because the person is gonna learn as much about themselves as they are about the manipulation of the handgun or the rifle or subgun or whatever we're doing that day.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um but we always evaluate students, you know, through different um drills or combat effectiveness tests to give themselves a baseline of where they are right at the beginning of a course.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_02: We don't coach them and we don't even use the term instructor at Haley Strategic because that has a negative connotation.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_02: We use the term coach.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_02: So we're here to coach you to get to where you want to be.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_02: So we don't coach the students, we put them on the line and we run them through uh a set of very simple drills to give themselves a baseline, but it also gives us as coaches the ability to observe, see what deficiencies pop out at us from the beginning, and it will allow us to individually coach the student to get them to where they need to be.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_02: And when I mentioned demographic, and you asked a question about what is a student's goals, what do they want to accomplish?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_02: We asked them that in their initial intro in front of the class is what what are you looking to accomplish?
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_02: What are your goals for the class?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_02: It could be I want to protect my family better, I want to protect society better, um, I'm in law enforcement and I want to be better with my my duty weapon.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_02: It could be a a gaming of things, or you know, like you said, it could be I want to be better at competition shooting.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um, could I just I enjoy shooting, so I I just want to become better at it.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: And we listen to what they have to say, and that helps us learn more about the student, and it helps us as coaches kind of get into the same mindset as they may be, so we can speak to them in terms that better relate to where they're from and how they go about things.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because we're not a law enforcement class, we're certainly not a uh military-style class.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we do do a lot of coaching with military units and law enforcement, but we we change the environment.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_02: We want the environment to be as comfortable as possible for those students so they have the best ability to learn.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: This isn't a toes on the line, you know, you're gonna do what I say you're gonna do, and you're gonna forget everything else you've ever been taught by anybody and you're gonna do it our way or no way.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_02: That's not it at all.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_02: We're not a if someone asks us, well, why are we doing this?
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_02: We have a why for everything that we ask you to do.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_02: Because if as a coach, if we can't explain why we're asking you to do a certain drill, then you're not a coach.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_02: You're just you know a paid person that shows up and you know reads off a script of drills they want someone to do.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_02: That that's not what the student is there for.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_02: So everything we ask a student to do at any time, if they ask why we are doing it, we have a legitimate, solid answer that they can understand.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_02: So when they go onto the line to shoot the drill, they're you know, they're they have confidence as to why they're there.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_02: So I would be very wary of someone that is instructing coaching that says, all right, online, we're gonna do this drill, and someone says, Well, why are we doing this drill?
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_02: Oh, it was my favorite drill when I was wherever I had my training.
• 17:17
  SPEAKER_02: That was my favorite drill.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_02: Well, that doesn't answer my question.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it may be your favorite drill, but what are my what are my goals by doing this drill?
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that that's you know, a big part of how we evaluate a student from the time they walk into class to the time that we get through the first baseline evaluation of them is we first thing is we learn something about them as a person.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_02: Don't care about any of their background as far as you know, firearms.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_02: We want to learn, we want to learn about you because we want to relate to you.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, typically we have 25, 26 people in a class, and as coaches, we have individual goals.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_02: I know we all have all the all the staff does.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_02: We want to know by the by the middle of day two, we're gonna know everybody's first name, you know, why haven't memorized.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_02: Because we want to relate and get into uh an environment that we can coach them on a personal level.
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so that's uh always a big goal of ours is to is learning names.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's a big deal for us.
• 18:28
  SPEAKER_00: So as far as your first baseline drills, can you give us a an example or two of what you might start somebody out doing?
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so I mean, for for handgun, you know, we would start at the three-yard line, um, be called a CET, combat effectiveness test.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um we'll start at a three-yard line, and depending on the students or in the class, it may be from the draw, it could be from the relaxed ready, and it's you know, it's five rounds and three seconds.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_02: Just give them the entire 12 ring.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_02: So we'll we'll do two reps at three, two reps at five, two reps at ten, two reps at fifteen, and then two reps at twenty-five.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_02: Each each rep is five rounds, and as we back up, we give them more time.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_02: So for on the three and the five, it's three seconds.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_02: You back up to the ten, it goes to four seconds, back up to the fifteen.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_02: It's still uh it's five seconds, and then at twenty-five, it's ten seconds to draw and shoot five rounds.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and it's nothing crazy, nothing hard.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_02: We're not asking them to we want them to try to meet the time standard, but on that initial CET on an open enrollment class, we're just observing.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're not scoring the the penalties.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um but it gives the students not only to see where they are right now, cold, here we go, it gives us an idea of what we're working with for the next three days or six days, depending on what what class we're teaching.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's it's simply a a baseline depending on who we're working with, if it's a law enforcement military unit of some kind, then we absolutely are scoring you know the overtime penalties uh and that comes off the the cumulative.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_02: So a full C T has a static block, which is what I just described.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_02: Then we have a manipulations block, which is which is speed reloads, provided reloads.
• 20:34
  SPEAKER_02: We have a malfunction block, which is we go through failure to fires, stovepipes, double feeds, and then we have a movement block, which is a little bit of offline of attack.
• 20:43
  SPEAKER_02: So we have four blocks, and it can be you know up to like 160 rounds of of fire, but for a a basic entry handgun class, it's a very simple 50-round course of fire.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, I like that because it gives everybody an opportunity also to see how well they do at varying distances.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: As in as is so often the case, you go to an indoor range, prime example, you'll see people set their targets out at three, five, seven, maybe ten, and then they'll stay there, and they'll they'll just send rounds all day.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_00: And like, you know, as is as has happened a couple of times now recently with active shooter responses, there have been a civilian or law enforcement who's had to take a shot at much greater distances than you would traditionally train.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: You have to know beyond a shadow of a doubt where your rounds are going to go at 25, 30, 35, 40, 50, right?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_00: You've got to have trained that and know, but I think a lot of times people will get to the range, they have a particular drill they enjoy, they stay within the confines and the restrictions of that particular exercise, never branch out.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So, right out of the gate for you, you've gone from sort of that close quarters in a couple of rounds, which you should be able to deliver very quickly and accurately at three out.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: out to 25, well now you're testing, you know, how quickly are you on sites, how good is that trigger press, how good is that follow through.
• 22:06
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's a great drill.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_02: I mean it and it's it's nothing fancy.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_02: It's nothing high speed.
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_02: If they don't make the time, they don't make the time.
• 22:14
  SPEAKER_02: But it's giving them a this is where I am, but also it gives us an idea of this is what we're working with and what are the deficiencies that pop out.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, they pop out pretty fast.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna, you know, to be honest with you, they pop out very fast, stance, grip, jump out, you know, off the off the map, you know, very quickly, and that's that moves right into you know what we start with from the ground up.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_02: And we'll we'll we'll roll into stance and you know and then grip and then trigger press.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: But that gives us an idea of what we're working with.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_02: And then we can look at what we're seeing, know the person that we just got introduced to and how they think there's Max the dog behind us.
• 23:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yep.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_02: Give us a, you know, because we're getting to know them, we can kind of start relating to I'm dealing with the doctor here, I'm dealing with an engineer or an attorney or law enforcement.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_02: It gives us an idea of how we're going to start relating to them based upon their demographic and background and what we're seeing during that that initial assessment.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Here's a question for every law enforcement agency.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: If your officers struggle to find time to get to the range, why not bring more training opportunities to them?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: Long shifts, family commitments, limited resources, we understand the challenges.
• 23:41
  SPEAKER_00: But firearms proficiency is a perishable skill and qualifying once or twice a year simply isn't enough.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's where laser ammo comes in.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: From reactive tactical targets and recall enabled training pistols to our immersive smokeless range simulator, we help departments create realistic, convenient weekly or even daily training opportunities right at your facilities.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Even five minutes a day of purposeful practice can make all the difference.
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'll personally help you select the right equipment for your officers and your training objectives without turning the purchasing process into another full-time job.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: And qualifying law enforcement customers receive 12.5% off regular pricing when they contact me directly because readiness doesn't happen by accident it happens by design.
• 24:30
  SPEAKER_00: Email Terry at laseramo and let's make better preparation easier.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: Laser ammo train with purpose perform with confidence.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: And now back to the episode so that does the class begin with that conversation or do they have paperwork they've already filled out and that's how you it's you know we want you know it we do it all together.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: So if we have a 26-minute class then you know every student in front of the class we have a list of of of items on um up on the screen of things that you want to discuss you know what's your background where are you from what's your career what are your goals for your class for for this class and they have to introduce themselves to all 26 students and you know it we ask our students to be very very vulnerable during our classes let their guards down don't care what's going on next to you you need to worry about you and try some new things and that starts in the classroom right there at the beginning where let your guard down you know be proud of what what you're what you're here for and and your reasons and you know it helps build confidence by by letting your guard down a little bit and just talking freely.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_02: So and that also creates a community amongst the class so that you know everybody is you know hey I can relate to him because I do something similar or you know that's someone I'd like to get to know more and it you know creates a a a family effect you know throughout the three or six days that the guys are with us and gals.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's a very important part of of of what we do.
• 26:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well I like that for a couple of different reasons not least of which is the pressure it puts on an individual to talk in front of a group of strangers and the instructor or in your case the coach is in and of itself a situation where someone feels pressure.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: And if there's one consistent theme across all of this whether you're learning to shoot more efficiently or effectively for self-defense or self-protection or competition there's always going to be inherent stress and fear associated with that to varying degrees.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: So asking people to publicly state prior history experience goals for the class already puts them under a certain amount of pressure before they even get near the gun.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: So I like that I think it's a very smart way to start those classes.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_02: It's a very important part of the class and you know sometimes about people that may or may not want to participate but we we make them participate because you know we want them to relax and you know the the level of relaxation after everybody has done that it's been like all right we know each other now let's go out and start learning and you know it's uh we'll we'll we give you uh we have a two second rule we'll give you two seconds to be upset with whatever is going on with your target but then you got to let it go because if you carry that uh damn shit you know onto the next drill it's just gonna mess up the next drill so if you want to be upset that's fine you got two seconds to be upset and then just let it go because guess what you're not being shot at today you're in a training environment you're shooting paper right now so you're here to correct issues we're here to help you correct issues but it but I don't give a shit what the paper is telling us right now don't worry about it if it's not whole and whole and whole who cares we'll get there just let it go so you got two seconds two seconds to be pissed and you gotta let it go we used to call that the goldfish moment you can you can be pissed off and angry for two seconds and then you better forget it and move on.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's right you got to forget it move on so what do you think for most shooters what are the the most important capabilities for the firearm that are easiest for them to overlook and why?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_02: Fundamentally I think that the ones the two that jump off the page at us all the time are stance and grip um as far as being fundamentally sound and consistent in their firearm shooting is is stance and grip.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_02: And we teach the same stance whether or not we're shooting handgun, shotgun, subgun, AK, AR, whatever it is it's the same type of stance the only difference may be how far we may drop our back lead depending on the recoil of the weapon system that we're shooting.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_02: So you know stance pops out at us and law enforcement you know notoriously bad training everywhere obviously some better than others but you know the amount of flat footed things that that we see um especially right at the gate with with folks law enforcement in particular is is you know it's it's it's frustrating.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: But that you know if you don't have a good base you don't have a good stance to build upon then you know everything else is gonna lack because you're not starting foundationally and everything that we teach is very stackable.
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_02: So if it's been a while since you've been in the range and you and you you know press the trigger the way we go about things you can go back to setting your feet all the way up through trigger press and you can knock the rust off and it's very stackable.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_02: It's not all over the map.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so you know stance is is number one that you know you got to be fundamentally fundamentally sound with your stance and then grip.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: And that's that one really pops off the the the map at us as well is is is the way people grip grip the weapon and the ability to control recoil that's something you got to have if you want your proficiency to really be there and then to accelerate your performance is is is your grip.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_02: You want your firearms proficiency to be important whether it be self-defense home defense whatever it may be you know competition if you don't have those two things then you know something's better than nothing but those two things need to be squared away before you go into an endeavor where you know somebody may might be you know better trained better equipped better prepared than you are you need to have you know those two basics squared away and that's not I'm not you know there's no light bulb in the sky saying Ben's got these proficient ideas.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_02: This is easy stuff but um I think that I think that answers your question um it does yeah so but those things jump off the page at us and they're they're super super important skill sets to have to improve upon yourself and prepare for whatever.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah w one of the things I I ran into at a at a competition was I had someone who was a very good competitive shooter.
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: He was aware of being on top shop but he saw me shooting and said you're losing a lot of time and I asked him how I'm always open to not only suggestions but anything that will help improve.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: And he said you have a tendency to get into this athletic stance when you're about to shoot he's like why you've got enough upper body mass you can absorb all those follow-up shots and be moving and I realized that there is a there's a huge chasm of difference between perhaps shaving fractions of a second off time in the interest of efficiency and being combat efficient and ready to fight.
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: And of course with the martial arts background as well and teaching edged weapons as well as firearms it's it's built in at this point to my DNA that if I'm going to engage with a firearm in exactly the same way as if I'm going to engage with a blade, there's an athletic position I need to be in and by that I don't mean I'm you know hitting some obtuse angles in a squat.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: My knees are soft my right foot is back just a little bit I've got my balance I can move right and one of the things I think we often forget in competition shooting is yes there is going to be movement in most cases.
• 33:00
  SPEAKER_00: But you're not moving because someone's trying to take your head off with a shot of their own or because they're trying to stab you you're moving just for time.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: So it was very interesting to me that he thought that I was wasting time with my position and I I pointed out to him that as far as his tactics and proficiency in an actual fight were concerned, he stuck ass and was probably going to die.
• 33:23
  SPEAKER_00: Of course he could shoot very fast and maybe he would get the first two shots off and beat the other guy.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: But there was no built-in um sort of training for him that correlated to movement.
• 33:37
  SPEAKER_00: And to further build on what you've just said there's a consistency there, right?
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: With competitive shooters I've seen people get into a variety of different stances before they start and then they're in a variety of different positions when they shoot.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas when I feel when I consider movement and when I consider combatives of any type firearms to blades to hands the more consistent you can be in the platform and the stance and the way you present the firearm in this case that's one human variable less to screw things up.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Like if you go into five different positions at five different times you've added in a complication that doesn't need to be there.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that you are consistent in asking people to sort of get into that one good solid athletic position before engaging.
• 34:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah no it it in competition and combat shooting there's a definite switch there to you know between being fast and efficient and moving from shooting position to shooting position and not have to worry about you know getting you know shot at that's a different approach altogether and you know it's very difficult to switch from in my opinion yeah combat shooting to competition shooting in in a lot of cases too depending on what type of USPSA or IDPA or whatever it may be depending on what you're shooting you know a lot of guys are running you know I'm just gonna call them race guns you know which don't have the recoil in their their light loads or or whatever so there's not as much recoil mitigation that goes on but you're not worried about you know having to be dynamic to get off the X because that's why we're in this aggressive stance we're being you know efficient from point A to point B to save time whereas there's a whole lot more going on in your head um when you're talking about combat shooting than there is you know just getting from point A to point B and blazing rounds and um and being fast.
• 35:44
  SPEAKER_02: But I think it's a healthy switch that if you want to move into competition shooting or explore it, I think it's a healthy switch to be able to throw that when you need to because they do blend in some aspects um but you know it's very difficult.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: It's hard for me.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_02: So um but it's I think it's an important skill set to have to be able to go from one mindset to another but it's hard.
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it is it's I cannot shake the must be ready to move it's it's down there sweet yeah quickly things go sideways so it's but I see that there are efficiencies that could be exploited it's just even at the expense of doing perhaps better in a shooting competition I can't um sacrifice the tactical elements the firing from concealed or in behind cover in a way that I would do if I was really having to engage a threat and I love competition I really do.
• 36:48
  SPEAKER_00: It does it's healthy it's great fun and it's a lot of stress because you're worried about screwing up in front of a whole bunch of people or are you going to make the time you think you should do.
• 36:59
  SPEAKER_02: Yep yep there's two different there's definitely two different stressors I mean you're worried about time in a competition and combat shooting you worry about a lot of other things so it's uh it's it's definitely two different mindsets but it the competition part of it is is very very healthy um because you you're not only you're trying to go fast but you're trying to think two shooting positions ahead of where you're at and getting there reloading whatever you got to do and doing it as efficiently as possible it it's it's I think it's super healthy and I try to do as much of it as I can I don't do as much of it as I want um but it it's very healthy.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: Hey just a quick reminder if you're enjoying the episode don't forget to hit that like button your support means the world and it helps us keep pushing forward creating this content.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Now back to the podcast.
• 37:52
  SPEAKER_00: Can you share an LE or EMS experience where the most valuable skill you learned or acquired had nothing to do with shooting?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah um I think you know EMS is uh probably easier to relate to because you know there are no firearms on the truck um well I have a firearm um but uh you know I I think that when we come together on we have multiple patients uh motor vehicle accidents really jump off at us um where you arrive on scene and you've got multiple patients multiple vehicles more than one crew you have fire there helping um you know everybody goes into automatic mode because we have very good training in our county where we are for a rural county uh we're we're very cutting edge on a lot of things we do but everybody knows each other so well that everything's unspoken and everybody's one step ahead of the of the other and that's because we work well as a team and you know every month we have you know uh continuing education for an entire day which is a mandatory requirement for all uh employees but we you know we we know which uh what are what each other's thinking and we don't have to uh second guess what's going on and that again relates back to athletics and teamwork because you know we have strong firemen and first responders in our county and they are really good at their job and the guys and gals that are on our trucks are you know first class and a lot of what we do en route to a scene is we talk about responsibilities roles before we get there.
• 39:49
  SPEAKER_02: So as soon as we arrive on scene you know we already have a step ahead of who's going to do what who's gonna handle this piece of equipment and who's gonna do what with the patient before we even see the patients um but that happens on on the regular in an EMS setting um and you know there's no uh certainly no handling of firearms you know in that type of scenario um we did have a situation uh a few weeks ago I don't know if you heard about the Wilson County Courthouse shooting um that that turned into um a a tactical medic situation kind of a a TECC type of situation which I I teach at Wilson Community College um that curriculum with a a couple of our officers from Wilson County EMS um and it evolved into a a situation where it went from a shooting to now you've got officers involved that have been shot um we have a patient that's down and our crews are on scene and the scene is not secure um and that evolved very quickly but everybody did an amazing job of everybody flowed there was no um miscommunication we had good comms um I wasn't on scene for that I was at work but I was not involved in it but you know certainly I got all the information um long story short um a person came out of the courthouse and that was there for was on trial for uh being involved in in a murder and the person's brother that was murdered was sitting on a park bench and the person came out and he he lit him up and then you know from there we responded to that scene and saved that person who had been shot nine times um he fled then shot two deputies um and then they were able to take him into custody um after he was wounded um so uh it was a very dynamic fast moving scene but uh everybody did really really well and that was because of the solid training that you know everybody was a part of so um when we teach these TECC classes we always have a great mix of LE, fire and EMS because at any given time when we have a mass casualty situation all of those are going to be involved and if they don't know what one another's thinking um then it's gonna just gonna be a big chaos you know scene and everybody did very very well um so and uh everybody lived so um that's another that's always a bonus right um but uh that doesn't happen very often but we always we prepare for the worst all the time mass casualty incidents is are in the front of everyone's mind and you know yesterday we had the situation in Oregon um which uh from what I understand uh the 16 year old shooter was taken out by a a bystander um from you know so uh and don't know if it's accurate or not but I I read that uh the shooter was only shooting for three minutes until that person took him out.
• 43:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I would uh speculate that was probably a parent um of some kind.
• 43:32
  SPEAKER_02: I think it was a father of one of the kids.
• 43:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I haven't heard all the details about it but um anyway you saw the law enforcement EMS fire response on on the news um you have to work together it was fast I think they were on scene in three minutes from the time they got the call uh I think the I think the situation was already done well before they got there um but they were On scene fast as they should be.
• 44:02
  SPEAKER_00: Should be.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_00: But that's that's the point, isn't it?
• 44:05
  SPEAKER_00: When a situation like that begins unfolding, we're talking about casualties in the double digits potentially every 30 seconds to a minute if it's left unchecked.
• 44:14
  SPEAKER_00: So even though those officers and the first responders did a rock star job getting there fast, it took someone on scene that was willing to step in and intervene, to take the fight to the asshole that was, you know, in there killing kids and end it.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_00: It it as far as these situations go, can't stress enough how important it is to not only have a firearm with you, but also a willingness, both emotionally, psychologically, physically, to go in and step up to the plate.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because lives were saved because of that.
• 44:50
  SPEAKER_02: 100% saved.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_02: 100% saved.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_02: And if you're gonna make the decision, I'm sure you've talked about this on a lot of other episodes, but if you're gonna make the decision to carry lethal force on an everyday basis, then you have to have the mindset to do so uh and be willing to do that um if the time arises.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_02: So you know it's not an easy thing to get through in your brain sometimes for certain people.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you've got to be if you're gonna carry it, you've got to be willing to utilize it when the time arises.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_02: Um when that body alarm body alarm response hits, you gotta be ready to go.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so I I I hope to learn more about the civilian that was involved and and took that person out.
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um and I bet it was tough to, you know, shoot a 16-year-old.
• 45:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um Absolutely it was.
• 45:42
  SPEAKER_02: But, you know, maybe not necessarily as he's actively shooting at my kids, you know, it probably wouldn't you know there would be no hesitation there, but um maybe he's still taking a life.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you can't take that back once that round leaves the leaves the barrel.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_00: So but I think also you said something else important here with the response to the other incident you you mentioned.
• 46:04
  SPEAKER_00: Getting the training once a month, and on top of that, never still assuming on the way to a call out that you know what the other person's gonna do.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's we have a tendency, I think, in terms of as defensive shooters, our mindset becomes it's insulatory, this is individual to me, it'll be what I do and how I do it.
• 46:24
  SPEAKER_00: But if you have family members or other people within your group that have no idea of your intention given a situation like that, they themselves can become the biggest hindrance and danger to to you and to others by not knowing.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's it's so important to have open lines of com communication across your group, your family, your team.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_00: And the fact that you are doing that on top of this monthly training is why you responded as well as you did to that incident at Wilson County.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it uh, you know, and and honestly, once a month is not enough, but it but but it's the best that we can do.
• 47:03
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but you know, when we teach TCCC or TECC classes that are offered through the community college, you know, a lot of times the only thing that is costing the student is time away from work.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_02: So you may have to take vacation to take a class, but in a lot of cases, those courses are offered through the community college for for free.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_02: Um so you know, it's can you make that sacrifice of uh PTO to go get better training?
• 47:35
  SPEAKER_02: I would.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um I was working with a an agency recently who was switching from iron sights to Glocks with optics, um, and then I found out that you know they have a monthly day where the department provides the ammo and allows you know open range day.
• 47:56
  SPEAKER_02: So all you gotta do is show up and um and shoot.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_02: And there were 75 sworn officers in this department.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_02: Guess how many people chose to shoot up, show up?
• 48:06
  SPEAKER_02: Frightened to ask, but tell me.
• 48:08
  SPEAKER_02: Three.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_02: Three three out of seventy-five decided to show up.
• 48:14
  SPEAKER_02: Free ammo, you know, free time, um, three people out of seventy-five.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_02: And I as I was working through that, you know, group of officers as they were transitioning, I brought that up because I learned that on day one that only three people signed up.
• 48:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, if that's how your mindset is on your proficiency with that sidearm as you go to work, then that's a problem.
• 48:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um when the department is offering free resources to make yourself better, to save a life or your own, and you don't take advantage of it, then you know, you you shouldn't be in that line of work, in my opinion.
• 48:53
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh it was very and and that's unfortunate that you know that's a that's not uncommon in a law enforcement setting, you know.
• 49:04
  SPEAKER_02: People, you know, use their gun or take it out of their holster when they qualify once or twice a year, and that's it.
• 49:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um and that's should be um as you know, you know, shooting is a very uh perishable skill.
• 49:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um if I you know I I shoot at least once a week, but if I go a couple weeks for whatever reason, I I know, I can tell the difference.
• 49:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it's it's a very perishable skill.
• 49:36
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so if you're not able to actually shoot live rounds, no reason why you can't take 15 minutes and do some do some dry fire or whatever.
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_02: Um you need to um you you gotta stay on top of it or it's a skill that will absolutely diminish very quickly.
• 49:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 49:55
  SPEAKER_00: So a lot of the police departments that we sell the tactical training equipment to, like reactive targets as well as the smokeless range, we we sell it not always because a lot of departments are forward thinking and they want to just supplement all the live fire training with anything additional.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so our equipment fits the bill, but a lot of departments now are buying it simply because I can't get the guys to go to the range and put rounds down because they've done a 12-hour shift or whatever the case may be, and now they're going home to the families.
• 50:23
  SPEAKER_00: They don't want to take some time, you know, from the week to go shoot at the range.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: So they're instilling and installing the uh the gear we have at the department, so everyone's getting 10-15 minutes worth of dry fire, recoiling pistols.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: At least it's something.
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_00: So because otherwise, left to their own devices, in many cases, they're not shooting other than when they qualify.
• 50:44
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 50:46
  SPEAKER_02: Which bloody horrifies me.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_02: It is, it's scary.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, the things that I've seen training different departments really scares me to know that they're they're the the first line of defense on who's protecting, you know, my family or and and and and my fell uh fellow civilians is you know, I see what what I see, and you know, it's it's it's bad on a global basis.
• 51:21
  SPEAKER_02: It's not where it needs to be.
• 51:22
  SPEAKER_02: And that's you know, a lot of times that's no fault of the officers except for, you know, they should want to do whatever it takes to be as proficient as possible with something that is gonna either a take a life or keep you going home to your family at night.
• 51:39
  SPEAKER_02: Uh, I'd want to be as proficient with it as I can be.
• 51:42
  SPEAKER_02: Um just like you know, driving a car.
• 51:46
  SPEAKER_02: You know, you you if you're not proficient driving to a scene, lights and sirens, which you've all had training to do, why wouldn't you take that as seriously as something that's gonna take a life that instant you make that decision to press that trigger?
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_02: You know, that should be first and foremost.
• 52:04
  SPEAKER_02: But it it's not, it's it's it's a culture that is very difficult to break, and you have to have very strong leadership to break that habit.
• 52:14
  SPEAKER_02: And the department I was referencing does have strong leadership, and that's why they ask me, an outside person, to come in and you know compensate me to change in the mindset a little bit and get their their team where it needs to be.
• 52:31
  SPEAKER_02: Um so that's hats off to that department and that leadership to you know invite me in.
• 52:40
  SPEAKER_00: No, it makes a huge difference.
• 52:41
  SPEAKER_00: If the guys at the top are pushing and pushing and pushing to get as much training as they can possibly either fit in or afford, or both, it's phenomenal.
• 52:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it does make a difference across the entire department or or the entire um subset of people that are going to be involved in that training.
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_00: It changes it changes their mindset.
• 53:03
  SPEAKER_00: So you said something interesting as well about you know you're trying to shoot once a week, once every couple of weeks, and otherwise you're getting rusty.
• 53:09
  SPEAKER_00: But also, no, even as an incredibly experienced instructor, you still continue to take other people's classes.
• 53:17
  SPEAKER_00: Like you go to training other people put on.
• 53:20
  SPEAKER_02: I try to as as much as I can.
• 53:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I tell people all the time, and then we encourage, take as much training as you can as you can from as many different people as you can, um, because there is no bad training.
• 53:36
  SPEAKER_02: And I'm gonna you know qualify that statement.
• 53:39
  SPEAKER_02: There is no bad training.
• 53:40
  SPEAKER_02: And I say this because the coach or instructor could be crap.
• 53:47
  SPEAKER_02: What he's teaching you may be crap, but you're going to learn something about your gear setup or a little nugget that the person next to you did, or their gear.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_02: You're going to take something away from all training.
• 54:02
  SPEAKER_02: You could be taking away something good or you could be taking away something bad, but there is no overall bad training.
• 54:09
  SPEAKER_02: The you may not ever go back to that instructional group or that instructor or coach ever again, but you will pick up something about yourself or learn something from a fellow student uh that will be beneficial to you.
• 54:24
  SPEAKER_02: So, but I I do try to uh take as much outside training as I can.
• 54:30
  SPEAKER_02: There are several out there that I have not gotten to the I I would love to, uh, but it's a difficult um and people think that because we coach, instruct, that we shoot a lot, and we really don't, um, we have to make time away from the students um on our own when we're not on the road to stay proficient.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_02: And, you know, my bosses, um, Travis and Jared, um, they have an expectation of the staff.
• 55:05
  SPEAKER_02: And so going back to teamwork, team mate, I don't want to let the staff down by staying on the line doing a demo and blowing out my ass because I haven't spent the time that I needed to stay, you know, where where we where we want to be for the students.
• 55:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so you know, I don't try to fit shooting into my life.
• 55:28
  SPEAKER_02: Shooting is just a part of my life because it it needs to be to stay where I want to be as a coach shooter, but I I want to be proficient from the peach people that are watching me.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_02: Uh so if I let that go to crap, then you know why I mean I even out there.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_02: But you know, we have pretty I have pretty high standards for myself, and certainly we have pretty high standards um at Haley Strategic um for the the staff.
• 55:56
  SPEAKER_02: And it's tough to stay Travis likes to use the term blue angels.
• 56:04
  SPEAKER_02: So it's tough to be in that formation sometimes, um, because it's not easy to be a blue angel, but we do a very good job of it.
• 56:14
  SPEAKER_00: So what was the last thing you learned at somebody else's class that you have implemented either in your teaching or as part of your personal sort of SOPs for firearm utilization?
• 56:26
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so there's a uh a coach down in eastern part of the state down Jacksville, his name's Justin Dial.
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_02: Um his company is is dialed in training.
• 56:37
  SPEAKER_02: Um Justin and has got an extensive military background, Marine Corps background, Marine Corps officer, but he's an amazing coach and transfer of information, if I even said that right.
• 56:50
  SPEAKER_02: He can transfer information very, very well and has the demeanor to uh get that across in a super comfortable manner.
• 57:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um one-hand shooting he is really, you know, uh what I've taken the most from from Justin is is single-hand shooting.
• 57:12
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, that's always been a struggle for me is that single-hand shooting.
• 57:18
  SPEAKER_02: I'm getting much better at it after taking a few of his classes.
• 57:22
  SPEAKER_02: Um but that's certainly something that is gotta be in the toolbox when you need it, is you know, strong arm, strong hand, offhand shooting if you have to.
• 57:35
  SPEAKER_02: What if you get hit in the shoulder or you know, and you gotta or whatever the situation may be, you have to to get on the gun with with one hand.
• 57:44
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh still not easy.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not gonna call it easy for me.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_02: I'm I'm okay at it.
• 57:50
  SPEAKER_02: I'm you know, my standards for myself are a little higher.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_02: I wouldn't call myself proficient at it um as far as where I would like to be, but I'm getting there, but I wouldn't have gotten there without without Justin's guidance.
• 58:04
  SPEAKER_02: He's an amazing instructor.
• 58:06
  SPEAKER_02: Um so but that's not something people don't train what they're not comfortable training.
• 58:12
  SPEAKER_02: You know, no one likes to necessarily shoot single-hand.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_02: People don't like to work through malfunction clearances on a rifle.
• 58:20
  SPEAKER_02: One-handed.
• 58:22
  SPEAKER_02: One-handed, you know, uh, you know, reloads one-handed.
• 58:26
  SPEAKER_02: You know, it people don't like to train what they're not comfortable doing, and those are the things you should be training for first and foremost.
• 58:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I don't like to train single-handed, but it's a it's an it's a boss site could use some work, but I also know it could use some work because I've trained it enough to know you need some work, right?
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: That's part and parcel.
• 58:48
  SPEAKER_00: Have you are you familiar with AU fire accuracy under fire?
• 58:52
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not, no, sir.
• 58:54
  SPEAKER_00: Uh okay, so this company, uh, it was run by a former police officer out of LA, and he created a nearprint sleeve, could be for both arms or one arm, but what it essentially does, it's like the old uh Tens unit, it just locks you up.
• 59:10
  SPEAKER_00: So use it in conjunction with, and we do it at a lot of the conferences now, we'll put that on an officer or on a civilian, have them engage the smokeless range shooting, so dry fire with a recall pistol, magazines and firearms will look you know nearly identical to the real thing, got to recall and slide, and then we hit them with a shock.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the it replicates being shot to the degree you've got like four settings on this thing.
• 59:36
  SPEAKER_00: One, it kind of gives you a little tingle, you can fight through it, but four, it will absolutely lock you up.
• 59:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a chicken wing.
• 59:42
  SPEAKER_00: You can't do anything.
• 59:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing to see how long it takes someone to transition the firearm out of the arm or the hand that's incapacitated to the other and get accurate shots on, you know, in this particular case, could be on CQB or it could be on the simulator.
• 1:00:01
  SPEAKER_00: But there's a freeze that occurs when they're like, oh, hold on, my arm doesn't work.
• 1:00:05
  SPEAKER_00: And they're trying to force the strong side to work.
• 1:00:10
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't.
• 1:00:11
  SPEAKER_00: The electrical current's too strong.
• 1:00:13
  SPEAKER_00: You have to immediately transition.
• 1:00:15
  SPEAKER_00: It takes seconds in most cases, which, if you think about incoming rounds, three, four, five, six, seven seconds of you trying to force a hand that's obviously not working to let go of the gun so you can get to the other side and continue engaging the threat.
• 1:00:30
  SPEAKER_00: There's a pause, there's a delay, and the shock of the current through the arm.
• 1:00:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's an amazing piece of gear for forcing anyone from concealed carry to officers to shoot under physical duress in the same way as you were going to have to do in real life, should you take a round in the strong side.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I'd I'd like to I'd like to try that.
• 1:00:54
  SPEAKER_02: You know, so I'd like to try that.
• 1:00:56
  SPEAKER_02: Or maybe I don't want to try it, but I do want to try it.
• 1:00:58
  SPEAKER_02: So you do want to try it.
• 1:01:00
  SPEAKER_02: I do want to try it.
• 1:01:01
  SPEAKER_00: I took it to a police department uh recently, and they had that day that I went in to do this demo, they brought in an officer who was sworn in that day.
• 1:01:10
  SPEAKER_00: So, and this guy was maybe 22, 23 years old.
• 1:01:14
  SPEAKER_00: He he was all that in a can of beans.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: This guy was built right.
• 1:01:18
  SPEAKER_00: So we put the sleeve on him.
• 1:01:19
  SPEAKER_00: I told him there were four settings, one being very low, four being very high.
• 1:01:25
  SPEAKER_00: We gave him the pistol.
• 1:01:26
  SPEAKER_00: He's engaging the threats in the smokeless range on the simulator.
• 1:01:31
  SPEAKER_00: But what I didn't show him was instead of hitting him with one first, which is just a sort of a little bit of a tingle, but it's not bad.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: I hit him with four, but I told him it was gonna be a one.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: So it locks up his arm completely.
• 1:01:47
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, he's like, he's this sucks, this sucks, and it because it took him a few seconds to figure out he wasn't gonna be able to use that hand.
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: He did get the gun out and he did ultimately engage with the smokeless range and did great.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: But he's like, that's number one, because the whole team's dying, right?
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Because he had no idea.
• 1:02:03
  SPEAKER_00: But it showed and he did it, and then the rest of the we had three other guys who are like, oh, I've got to try that.
• 1:02:09
  SPEAKER_00: And that's the attitude, right?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: You want guys that go, okay, just like you did, I did the same thing.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm like, give me the sleeve, I want to feel this.
• 1:02:16
  SPEAKER_00: Let me give me give me a chance to find out can I work through the problem?
• 1:02:20
  SPEAKER_00: And the rest of these guys, at least a good portion of them, did exactly that, but that's what you want.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: You want to challenge everyone and put them in a situation they've never been in before.
• 1:02:30
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, absolutely.
• 1:02:32
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:02:33
  SPEAKER_02: And I I'll identify that piece of equipment.
• 1:02:36
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good bit of kit.
• 1:02:37
  SPEAKER_00: But you're down the road, you and I all meet up and uh we'll put the sleeve on you.
• 1:02:40
  SPEAKER_00: I think you'll like it.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:02:41
  SPEAKER_00: So outside of shooting for a moment, because I feel like with the skills you have, if you were going to advise someone to take some type of medical training, I have an idea in my head about what I'd probably advise, but I want your opinions on what do you think is most important for them to get additional, well, or even first training on from a medical standpoint.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so first and foremost, find a stop the bleed class somewhere.
• 1:03:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um they're usually a you know, maybe three-quarters of a day or a full day, but you know, stop the bleed first and foremost, and then find a CPR class after that.
• 1:03:22
  SPEAKER_02: But what people don't realize or they should realize if they don't is without having the ability to transfer oxygen, blood flow, then nothing else matters.
• 1:03:33
  SPEAKER_02: So you know, if I asked the average person or uh I asked the person how long does it take for an average person with a femoral, large arterial bleed, how long does it take the average person to bleed out?
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_02: What's the answer?
• 1:03:49
  SPEAKER_00: I would say 30 seconds to a minute, but I'm sure I'm probably wrong.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_02: So 90 seconds.
• 1:03:53
  SPEAKER_02: So 60 to 90 seconds it takes someone to to to to bleed out with a major femoral carotid, major arterial bleed.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: So Now does that is that the same as being combat inefficient, or is that you are dead?
• 1:04:10
  SPEAKER_00: No, that's your dead.
• 1:04:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's your you've bled out, and there's not enough v blood volume in in your uh system to transfer oxygen any longer.
• 1:04:21
  SPEAKER_02: There's nothing for the heart to adequately pump with any kind of pressure um is is is you've bled out.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_02: Um so all my kids have turtikets in their backpacks.
• 1:04:35
  SPEAKER_02: That's turtiquets in the door jams of their cars.
• 1:04:38
  SPEAKER_02: Because our average response time on the EMS setting, from the time the call is dispatched, from the time I'm dispatched, that means they have to process a call from the caller, determine what's going on and what assets are needed.
• 1:04:55
  SPEAKER_02: From the time I am dispatched, the time the average response time is around five to seven minutes.
• 1:05:01
  SPEAKER_02: Well, we just did the math, you're gonna be dead at that point.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_02: So if you don't have first line defense of a device and a major bleed, you know, tourniquet is is, you know, you don't need any medical training at all to apply a tourniquet, but a stop the bleed class would make you way more proficient on on that application, whether it be on someone else or yourself.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:05:25
  SPEAKER_02: And we're talking about things like you know, motor vehicle accidents or you know, if you want to to help a another civilian that's been in an accident, you know, have a you know, a$35 tourniquet, you know, could save your life or life of your family member or another civilian.
• 1:05:43
  SPEAKER_02: Um, but stop the bleed first and foremost, and those are there's they're out there um everywhere.
• 1:05:49
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and I think that is something that is super important, super important.
• 1:05:54
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh absolutely get up on a stop the bleed class, you know.
• 1:06:00
  SPEAKER_02: have a tourniquet in in your uh in your car on your person um there's a lot of small ones out there there there are the known ones the cat tournaments the sam xt's um snake staff systems is an excellent concealed carry type of tourniquet that has the same capability as a cat tournament tourniquet or sam xt um and they're they're they're super compact and and foldable um that's one I would recommend um say that name again snake staff systems okay um I have another one there but I think I'll be yeah try try them out um cat tourniquet is the one everybody knows about they've been around for years and years and years um we carry the Sam XT on a on the ambulance and that's the one that I carry is that the one with the belt you can you sort of lock in the nodules and then yeah yeah um it it's a lot easier for self-application yeah um and you don't have to worry about holding tension to um to wrap the strap around the extremity uh once you lock it into place so um but there they're there are something's better than nothing but have a device that is intended for that you know in your glove box in your door jam in your backpack in your pocket you should have those you know you know on hand yeah um so uh one thing that I've uh there's another another device out there called SEAL it's it's a compressed um hemostatic agent that's in a can um that I've utilized uh a couple times in the field that works really well for penetrating trauma that uh essentially it's like a like a combat gauze or a quick clot type of agent but it's compressed and it's under uh it's in a can and you can get deep into the the wound very very quickly um and it does a great job of uh creating a a membrane so to speak very fast to to stop that that hemorrhage um but you know cpr is great when someone's having a heart attack um or whatever has caused them to go into you know cardiac arrest it could be a number of things um but if there's no blood to transfer oxygen then cpr is not going to help you a whole lot so um you know stopping the stopping that that blood loss is is critical um and you know I I mentioned earlier that our department Wilson County is is very cutting edge on on things we do um we're one of five percent of departments in the EMS system nationally that carries whole blood now on our trucks um you know certainly life flight and the helicopters the birds they have blood but we have the we have blood whole blood uh on our trucks and that is and we've had that since January 1st um that has saved countless lives already this year um because you know old school thinking is you know the only way to raise the blood pressure is is to is to administer fluids which all that does in a massive hemorrhage situation is dilute the fluid the blood that's already in the system whereas if I can give you whole blood then you your survival weight goes up exponentially um so you know kudos to our department for um getting the grant that'll allow us to do that yeah um you know we have uh we have ultrasound on our trucks a lot of departments don't have that um so we can you know we can see internal you know hemorrhage very quickly and that changes the way treatment's given um you know th those two things in particular jump out um of things that we have that a lot of departments don't um but not going not to mean go down that rabbit hole but you know certainly to the everyday person watching find the style in the bleed class they're gonna talk about tourniquets pressure dressings um things that would help you know you know control bleeding hemostatic agents um are you know quick clot you know combat gauze will will really help stop andor you know slow andor stop that that hemorrhage which is critical to survival I'd add one additional thing to support everything you just said and that is take that class if for no other reason than to be well practiced in how to apply a bloody tourniquet because if the first time you're going to use it is in a high stress situation you may be self-treating.
• 1:10:51
  SPEAKER_00: You do not want to figure out in that moment as you open the packet for the first time this is actually a little more complicated than I thought.
• 1:10:58
  SPEAKER_02: It's not as easy as people think everybody thinks it's just looping a strap they're pulling it tight.
• 1:11:04
  SPEAKER_02: Do that when you're getting shot at or you know there's a body alarm response situation you're you're hyped up on adrenaline um and you you know everything with you know tunnel vision on you and your dexterity goes way way down try doing that and and then you add blood loss on top of it you know it's not as easy th an easy thing to do um you know we were working with a group recently um that uh it was an EP group I won't go into any details as to who we were working with um but you know we ran them through some medical uh and fire firearms and medical scenarios um from guys that had a lot of experience but it had just been a while and they just needed a they just needed a lot of work um and if you're gonna be in an EP role you know you need to be able to take care of your mark um uh and they recognize the the deficiency and I think that they were they're scheduled to go to uh a TECC class uh next month which is good um but just we didn't ask them to do anything other than tourniquets and it was uh not where it needed to be yeah and for those listening who are not uh familiar EP usually is executive protection or a thinking man's bodyguard like like real security now just because some of the vernacular sometimes we I'll have people email and say well what were these talking about here so executive protection these are people who are supposed to be keeping a VIP or a principal safe and that's you know above and beyond just obviously as a bullet catcher I hate that term but just as someone that is supposed to be in charge of that overall wellbeing of that person and not being able to figure out a tourniquet in a high stress situation I think people vastly underestimate how stressed they're gonna be cognitive function is down as you already said uh fine motor skills deteriorate when you're looking at somebody trying to figure this out for the first time in that kind of environment forget it it's gonna be an absolute cluster yeah it's it's difficult enough just as a motor vehicle accident when we don't have to worry about you know a threat we're just simply trying to package the patient for transport you know watching others that haven't done it um first responders or fire that maybe have have not done it in a while um watching them do their best to get that thing on as quickly as possible um it's it's not easy um even though it's only one loop um that you have to get that band through it's it's not easy depending on what's going on with the extremity the amount of fluid that's involved um it's not easy so it it it take just like firearms it it takes it takes practice it takes practice.
• 1:13:53
  SPEAKER_02: So I have a question reference to the carotid let's say you had a carotid bleed obviously a tourniquet's not not the best option might that spray that you mentioned facilitate a at least a slowing if not a stopping of the bleeding in a situation like that potentially um that you know uh on a carotid type of situation you know direct pressure is your is your best friend because you can't tourniquet a neck um but I have in in the field rigged a tourniquet with a pressure dressing where the tourniquet went around the neck and then across their chest like a seatbelt under their arm and then I could tighten this the tourniquet to hold the pressure dressing in place um you know for for transport once I was able to control the bleeding to a point where um survivability was was was the percentage went up but I wanted to keep direct pressure so I had the pressure dressing on the carotid and I wrapped the tourniquet across it and then underneath their arm and then tightened it um across their neck through their arm not you know around their neck.
• 1:15:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_02: So um that's a tough one man if if you got a carotid bleed that you need you need help fast um that that's a tough one.
• 1:15:13
  SPEAKER_00: So uh haven't experienced a whole lot of those but um a couple um that's a tough one yeah and I gotta be honest I don't know if I would have thought about using the tourniquet that way like go underneath the arm to apply pressure one in one position over obviously the bleed whilst maintaining some level of blood flow presumably on the other side.
• 1:15:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah yeah because you know you're not gonna tourniquet your airway um so um but that more than anything drug pressure needed to be yeah needed to always be there and you know uh it kept the pressure dressing in place um and controlled the bleeding until we were able to get to a trauma center.
• 1:16:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:16:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_00: No I love that.
• 1:16:02
  SPEAKER_00: That's great.
• 1:16:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I I'm hoping that someone heard that and was thinking that maybe the same thing as me.
• 1:16:08
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't have thought perhaps to use a tourniquet that way.
• 1:16:11
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe that is and could be a difference maker if a situation like that were ever to occur.
• 1:16:17
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's great.
• 1:16:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that's kind of lessons right that just come out of the field.
• 1:16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Or was that one of your training classes?
• 1:16:24
  SPEAKER_02: No that was actually I mean I had seen it in a training class.
• 1:16:28
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah so I had learned about the the technique and then was able to utilize it it was a car accident.
• 1:16:35
  SPEAKER_02: The one time that that I did utilize it was was a car accident.
• 1:16:39
  SPEAKER_02: So um there was spurting blood we were able to slow the slow the bleed not stop it but you know we needed to as we were packaging the person you know we needed to do something for transport that would um keep the pressure going and in place until we were in the truck and someone was able to actually hold the uh hold the pressure dressing as as tightly as they could.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 1:17:09
  SPEAKER_02: So um another way to do that too if you have it is um a C collar is a another good way to hold a pressure dressing in place um if you have one at your disposal um yeah yeah um and those are inexpensive devices as well I have one in my truck um uh all the time um you know certainly that's not its primary use but it's good for holding you know direct pressure on something okay so in the show notes I also want to put in the spray that you mentioned obviously for something that has you know usability and something that civilian can get hold of yep it's called SEAL S-E-K-L and it's a compressed can of hemostatic agent and it creates a a membrane over the the wound to uh s slow stop uh the hemorrhage the hemorrhage to other gravity kit yeah I have I have that I carry that on the truck um I have some downstairs in you know the medicine cabinet you know where you keep your ibuprofen and all that stuff um for use around the house um and I have one in my vehicle as well okay all right now that's kind of it's kind of it's kind of expensive but you know uh I'm gonna say a can of it is 70 or 80 dollars or something like that um but I mean if you're gonna put a price of saving your life or saving someone else's someone in your family 70 bucks 70 bucks is you know you know you tell me when to stop I'll get 10 cans you know right so take my money oh yeah because if you think about saving someone in your family there is no amount of money you're just like listen I just need the can right whatever it costs I just need the can yep yep yep so you travel a lot you teach a lot you're all over the place how has all of that kind of combined now as far as you like where is your your priorities kind of landed in terms of how you balance your kids your work your travel and everything you know it's uh uh the travel I I do I travel at Spurts um so um but the travel and a lot of times is uh a good reset for me for from for you know things going on outside of the training environment because when I'm on the road whether it be with HK or with with Travis and Jared with Haley Strategic um it's been a while since I've taught with SOAR special operations aid and rescue that's the tech medicine side of stuff I do but when I'm in those environments just like when I'm on the ambulance all I'm worried about is what's in front of me right now for that period of time.
• 1:19:54
  SPEAKER_02: And it allows my brain to reset from everything that goes on at home with kids um with um with outside environment environmental stuff um it's a good reset for me to be in that environment because everything else doesn't matter um when I'm on an ambulance you know I'm worried about the call the patient doing what I got to do to get them to the hospital um and nothing else matters you know the mortgage the mortgage doesn't matter the car payment doesn't matter uh it's just about getting that person from the scene to the hospital to get you know better care and when I'm on the range with with students I'm only worried about the student and how I can help them same thing no matter what I'm you know teaching when I'm with James Williamson with HK you know we're teaching you know specific stuff for role delay weapon systems or you know the the the HK handguns um or rifle you know all I'm concentrated on is helping that department or that unit you know learn the weapon system be more proficient with it because you know they they have them in their inventory or they're getting ready to have them um so it allows me to reset a lot of times from outside things you know kids you know between me and my wife we have seven kids so we have seven kids and seven things pulling us all over the place um and you know it allows my brain to kind of reset from that um when I when I'm away um and I'm away probably eight or nine weeks a year it's not a a ton of travel you know but you know it comes in spurts so um next week I'm in Georgia with with James and HK and then in December I'm in Florida with Halo Strategic for I think it's six or nine days um but it it comes in spurts um Jared and I were just in in Moyok for a week uh a few weeks ago uh working with that EP team I I mentioned out at Academy or I guess it's Costellis um we were at their facility um so it it comes in spurts um I do have the flexibility with all the things I do that um when Jared calls and says hey can you do this I say when's my flight you know so uh uh that's uh I'm uh the ability to to move things around to make it all work is uh is difficult but um and I do miss some things um I miss some events with the kids you know but you know be kind of can't be to everything all the time um but I balance it well I'm I'm pretty good at it so Jared calls me the business busiest man in show business so um yeah because all the things that I got going on but it it keeps me keeps me as young as I can be and it it it it keeps me keeps me moving.
• 1:22:58
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not a sedentary guy um just like you um uh you gotta keep moving mobility is life um you gotta take care of yourself I always find time to to be in the gym you know uh four or five four or five days a week minimum um uh because whenever comes a time when you stop moving that's when everything else stops as well or starts to stop.
• 1:23:22
  SPEAKER_02: At that range that's when it all seizes up yeah yeah and I've been through the roller coaster of life you know I told you I I played football at 295 I lost a bunch of weight when I quit playing and then I gained a bunch of it back in not a good way um I think my heaviest I was like 274 and I was just a fat body um but I made the decision about five years ago that you know if I don't do it now as the time as the clock ticks if I don't do it now and take care of myself it's gonna be so much more difficult um the older I get so I made the decision um to change how I go about you know eating and and and working out and taking care of myself because you know um I I want to be around as long as I can um and if I don't take care of myself first then um that will go away very very fast.
• 1:24:18
  SPEAKER_00: I say I have one more question for you mate right for someone who is in a similar position to you or I where we're juggling a lot right the discipline gets us out of bed at 4.30 in the morning so we can make it to the gym but then everything just becomes sort of a series of triage throughout the day with okay a little bit of time for family a little bit of time for my wife a little bit of time for this a little bit of time for that and then there's work right on top of everything else.
• 1:24:41
  SPEAKER_00: So somebody with a limited amount of time that is interested in becoming a better self-defender what would you give as advice for the first three steps they should take each month every month moving forward in terms of okay what is the priority?
• 1:24:56
  SPEAKER_02: Well so first and foremost my prioritization is protecting my family um so um I am going to be I'm gonna make time to ensure that I can do the best I can in doing that um you know I put my everyday carrier gun on just like I put my wallet in my pants but I do it a certain way I don't just put the gun in my waistband and walk out the door um every day I put the the holster in my waistband I the gun is of is already unloaded because I unloaded it the night before um and I'll get some draws I'll get some dry fires I'll get some side pictures um I do this every single day then I load the weapon and then I put it away so I've already gotten the dry fire reps of if I have to use the gun then you know I've already done that already today um you know depending on you know uh what I'm wearing that day or which weapon I'm carrying um that's super important um and then every day when I come home and I take my wallet out of my pants I take my gun off I unload the weapon and um it stays where it stays and you know I have other weapons around the house that always stay loaded.
• 1:26:12
  SPEAKER_02: But you know I prioritize my family and if I don't prepare myself for taking care of my family and myself then what are your goals?
• 1:26:23
  SPEAKER_02: So that's you know once you've determined what your prioritization is as far as your firearms proficiency then that that would be my first next step is do something very deliberate every day that is repeatable that just starts building that neuropathway um and and then my nation to keep that a repeatable process every day when I do that you know I don't skip that step you skip that step one day it's like skipping the gym you skip the gym today well I skipped yesterday I'll skip it again today and then it becomes a process where it doesn't happen anymore and you need to be able to repeat that process when lives depend on it.
• 1:27:10
  SPEAKER_02: And then you know it's a very perishable skill firearms in particular don't try to force shooting in your life make shooting a part of your life so make time for yourself to go and and and and shoot and run through some drills on your own the the amount of things you can do with a box of ammo that's you know enough to keep you proficient.
• 1:27:33
  SPEAKER_02: You know and if you have a limited amount of time a little amount of ammo one box of ammo once a week will will keep you you know as proficient as you can be if that's what you got.
• 1:27:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:27:46
  SPEAKER_02: So um it's uh it's tough though you you have to force things force is a is a wrong word you have to implement things that equal what your priorities are And make that a habit and make that, you know, a very deliberate thing.
• 1:28:06
  SPEAKER_02: You know, we talk about being the deliberate practice model.
• 1:28:09
  SPEAKER_02: Everything we do that we teach and coach is very, very deliberate.
• 1:28:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and there's a why behind that deliberateness.
• 1:28:16
  SPEAKER_02: Um because if you're not deliberate about it and you're just blasting rounds, yeah, it's like go, it's like going to the gym.
• 1:28:23
  SPEAKER_02: If you go to the gym and you're just gonna go, oh, and you see it at play in fitness, people that want you can see the wanderers.
• 1:28:30
  SPEAKER_02: They don't know what they're they don't know what they're doing.
• 1:28:33
  SPEAKER_02: They're just in there and they're, I'll try this machine today, I'll try that machine today.
• 1:28:37
  SPEAKER_02: And once they tried a couple machines, they checked the box and they went to the gym.
• 1:28:41
  SPEAKER_02: Well, no, I'm going to the gym, I'm doing upper body today, so I'm gonna do three sets of this, three sets of that, three sets of this, at this weight, I know what I'm doing.
• 1:28:51
  SPEAKER_02: Um, so uh, you know, it's it's a very deliberate thing, you know, carrying a firearm, going to the gym, um, go into the range.
• 1:29:02
  SPEAKER_02: Um, you don't go to the if you go to you see it at on point all the time, people just out there just blasting.
• 1:29:07
  SPEAKER_02: And they may be doing these things.
• 1:29:10
  SPEAKER_02: They're having fun, they're making a lot of noise, um, but they just wasted their time and money if they want to accomplish anything.
• 1:29:18
  SPEAKER_02: If you're if your goal is just to go have fun and just blast rounds, then they they did that.
• 1:29:23
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're going out there to become more proficient on carrying deadly force every day, then you know, uh you need to have that in your mind as to this is why I'm going to the range and this is why I'm going to be deliberate about it.
• 1:29:37
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 1:29:38
  SPEAKER_00: Specific goals in mind.
• 1:29:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:29:40
  unknown: Yeah.
• 1:29:40
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing I'd add to that is choose to do something that scares you on a regular basis and learn to manage the stress and fear that comes from doing that endeavor.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:29:52
  SPEAKER_00: Because the more you can manage the emotions that come with that stress and fear, the better or the greater the likelihood you can manage the stress and fear that's going to come with a deadly force encounter, whether that's aimed at you or you protecting your family or other loved ones.
• 1:30:08
  SPEAKER_00: So do something that scares you and then learn to manage the emotions is the one thing I'd add to that.
• 1:30:13
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:30:14
  SPEAKER_02: Absolutely.
• 1:30:15
  SPEAKER_00: I can't agree with you more.
• 1:30:17
  SPEAKER_00: So dude, I have thoroughly enjoyed this conversation.
• 1:30:21
  SPEAKER_00: You are an absolute bloody wealth of information, mate.
• 1:30:23
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for making time to jump on here for this.
• 1:30:26
  SPEAKER_02: Terry, I I'm glad we ran into each other, and uh it's always good to see you, and I can't thank you enough for allowing me to to be on the on the show and um share what I could.
• 1:30:38
  SPEAKER_02: So um thank you very much.
• 1:30:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's been it's been an honor and a pleasure being a part of this.
• 1:30:43
  SPEAKER_00: So where if somebody's interested in either getting a class from you or maybe a stop of the bleed, or they just want to follow what you're doing, where do you want them to go, mate?
• 1:30:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I do have an Instagram uh page.
• 1:30:54
  SPEAKER_02: It's uh at B-E-R-G M-E-D-H-S-P.
• 1:31:00
  SPEAKER_02: Um I do have my own training company.
• 1:31:03
  SPEAKER_02: I don't promote any of my classes.
• 1:31:07
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh all my classes are through word of mouth.
• 1:31:11
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I let a certain group of individuals know um that I have a class upcoming and they spread the word and they bring new people, and then they bring new people, and they bring new people.
• 1:31:22
  SPEAKER_02: So I teach on my own um here locally.
• 1:31:25
  SPEAKER_02: Uh you know, I found a a great place in Lewisburg that we've been going to recently um that is a great facility on private land.
• 1:31:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um really and um yeah, um so uh if you're interested in any of those classes, you know, shoot me a direct message on on my Instagram and I will absolutely reach out to you and include you in the email, you know, uh broadcast when I send out classes.
• 1:31:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um I do handgun, I do handgun rifle, I do rifle, um, do nods um as well.
• 1:31:59
  SPEAKER_02: Um just had a uh a nods class a few weeks ago that went went went very well.
• 1:32:04
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh would love to have new new blood out there.
• 1:32:09
  SPEAKER_02: Um I always have new students because my guys that that always come back for more, which is great, they always bring buddies or uh a new department or um you know, so it's a great mix of of guys, gals, law enforcement, military guys that come out, have some government guys that come out.
• 1:32:28
  SPEAKER_02: Um so uh if you're interested, you know, please reach out.
• 1:32:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um obviously, you know, uh highly recommend Haley Strategic Training.
• 1:32:39
  SPEAKER_02: Um so go to the Haley Strategic website and uh go to the training schedule and you can see where we're gonna be.
• 1:32:45
  SPEAKER_02: We're all over the country.
• 1:32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Um and we put on uh excellent training.
• 1:32:53
  SPEAKER_02: So uh I'm proud to this is my 11th year with Travis and Jared, and I'm very blessed and fortunate to be a part of that team.
• 1:33:01
  SPEAKER_02: Um and you know, uh can't say enough about the way that company is changing me as a as a person and as a shooter, um, and the way I carry myself.
• 1:33:13
  SPEAKER_02: Uh I can't thank uh Travis uh enough for everything he's done for me and my family, Jared as well.
• 1:33:20
  SPEAKER_02: Jared Seagraze is our director of training um and the team that that they've put together that I work with on a on a daily basis.
• 1:33:27
  SPEAKER_02: Um uh I I love our catchphrase, thinkers before shooters.
• 1:33:33
  SPEAKER_02: Um so if you see a thinker's shirt on me or or you know, that's that's what that means is thinkers before shooters, um, that that stands out.
• 1:33:42
  SPEAKER_02: Uh uh and we're also a shooting class.
• 1:33:45
  SPEAKER_02: So you're gonna learn as much about yourself as you are about about a weapon uh when you when you take classes from us.
• 1:33:50
  SPEAKER_02: So uh can't thank those guys enough.
• 1:33:53
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's an honor to be uh part of that team.
• 1:33:56
  SPEAKER_02: And um I'm the I'm the old head.
• 1:33:59
  SPEAKER_02: I think that next to next to Travis, I'm the I'm the the one that's been there the longest.
• 1:34:03
  SPEAKER_02: So it's been I've been fortunate he's kept me around that long.
• 1:34:06
  SPEAKER_00: So um can't thank him enough.
• 1:34:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm interested in finding out more about once we get through this today, uh, your classes locally.
• 1:34:14
  SPEAKER_00: I think I would like to be in the mix there.
• 1:34:17
  SPEAKER_00: But thank you again, mate, for joining me.
• 1:34:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a pleasure.
• 1:34:20
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, Terry, it's been great.
• 1:34:22
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, sir.
• 1:34:23
  SPEAKER_00: All right, thanks everyone for tuning in to this episode.
• 1:34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Depending on what platform you're on, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe.
• 1:34:29
  SPEAKER_00: It's the biggest compliment you can give us, and we truly appreciate your support.
• 1:34:32
  SPEAKER_00: For now, that's the end of the episode.
• 1:34:34
  SPEAKER_00: We'll see you in the next one.
• 1:34:35
  SPEAKER_00: Cheers.