Latest / Pastor John Piper's answers / Does Mysticism Make Us Closer to God?

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Does Mysticism Make Us Closer to God? · Pastor John Piper's answers

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  Speaker 1: Thursday, we were talking about recreational marijuana, and I briefly
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  Speaker 1: mentioned that various religions have used marijuana in pursuit of
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  Speaker 1: a spiritual high, a divine connection, or some sort of
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  Speaker 1: altered state of consciousness that they believe will deepen their
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  Speaker 1: faith or open their mind to a sacred experience. And
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  Speaker 1: if you've been around for a while on this podcast,
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  Speaker 1: you know that we talk about the daily fight to
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  Speaker 1: experience God's manifest presence in our lives, the experienced, known,
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  Speaker 1: tasted presence of God. That's a topic that comes up
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  Speaker 1: when we talk about spiritual depression. Like you'll see in
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  Speaker 1: the APG book on pages three ninety nine to four hundred,
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  Speaker 1: it's the opposite of spiritual depression to have this experience,
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  Speaker 1: this known, tasted presence of God in our lives and
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  Speaker 1: seeking after that experience. That kind of language can make
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  Speaker 1: people think that we're talking about some euphoric or mystical
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  Speaker 1: experience that we pitch as sort of like the pinnacle
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  Speaker 1: that everyone should aspire to in their spiritual lives. And
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  Speaker 1: so it's good to consider this letter from Diane in
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  Speaker 1: South Africa. A pastor John, thank you for all that
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  Speaker 1: you've done to educate and help Christians worldwide for so
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  Speaker 1: many years, I've made use of many of your resources online,
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  Speaker 1: and I don't know if this question has come up before,
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  Speaker 1: but what are your thoughts on Christian mysticism and Christian
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  Speaker 1: mystics and their interaction with God? Did they experience something
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  Speaker 1: in their walk with God that we have generally lost today?
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  Speaker 1: Is mysticism something that we should pursue to have a
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  Speaker 1: closer walk with God? I understand that mysticism often involves
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  Speaker 1: deep personal experiences with God, but I'm unsure whether it
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  Speaker 1: aligns with what the Bible teaches on how we are
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  Speaker 1: to know God and be sanctified. Can mysticism be a
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  Speaker 1: legitimate path to spiritual growth? Or does it distract from
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  Speaker 1: the means of grace we have been given? Like prayer,
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  Speaker 1: scripture and fellowship Colautions two verses eighteen and nineteen warns
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  Speaker 1: against pursuing visions or worship of angels, emphasizing the importance
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  Speaker 1: of holding fast to Christ alone. How do we avoid
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  Speaker 1: these distractions while deepening our relationship with God?
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  Speaker 2: Wikipedia defines mysticism like this. Mysticism is popularly known as
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  Speaker 2: becoming one with God or the Absolute, but may refer
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  Speaker 2: to any kind of ecstasy or altered state of consciousness
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  Speaker 2: which is given a religious or spiritual meaning. Miriam Webster's
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  Speaker 2: Dictionary defines mysticism as the belief that direct knowledge of God,
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  Speaker 2: spiritual truth, or ultimate reality can be attained through subjective experience,
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  Speaker 2: such as intuition or insight. So I suspect what Diane
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  Speaker 2: is getting at in her question is the kind of
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  Speaker 2: subjective experiences that one pursues, not by meditating on scriptures
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  Speaker 2: so as to understand objective revealed truth and be transformed
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  Speaker 2: by it, but rather seeking some other kind of ecstatic
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  Speaker 2: or out of body connection with supernatural powers in the
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  Speaker 2: hopes of gaining some hidden knowledge or experience of ultimate
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  Speaker 2: reality that would give power to successful life change. Something
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  Speaker 2: like that, and Diane asks, is mysticism something we should
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  Speaker 2: pursue to have a closer walk with God? Now, given
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  Speaker 2: the way I have defined mysticism and the way she
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  Speaker 2: usually thought about, the answer is no, No, we shouldn't
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  Speaker 2: pursue it. Don't seek transformation or power through ecstatic or
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  Speaker 2: out of body connections. Supernatural powers don't go that route.
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  Speaker 2: And I would take us to just one passage of
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  Speaker 2: scripture to support that position. Here's Second Corinthians, and Paul
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  Speaker 2: is being mocked in this book, or in this situation
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  Speaker 2: behind the book, by a group of adversaries whom he
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  Speaker 2: calls super apostles. He calls them that in chapter eleven,
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  Speaker 2: verse five, Chapter twelve, verse eleven. They said, for example,
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  Speaker 2: this is a quote from chapter ten, verse ten. His
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  Speaker 2: letters are weighty and strong, but his bodily presence is weak,
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  Speaker 2: and his speech of no account. One of the things
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  Speaker 2: that they de I did about Paul was that he
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  Speaker 2: wasn't mystical enough. He didn't have the kind of amazing
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  Speaker 2: experiences that the super apostles had. So one of Paul's
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  Speaker 2: strategies to rescue the Corinthian believers from the influence of
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  Speaker 2: these adversaries was to go ahead and boast about the
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  Speaker 2: very thing they said he didn't have, and then turn
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  Speaker 2: around and call it foolishness. It's a very interesting strategy.
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  Speaker 2: He boasted rather in his weaknesses, not in these powerful, special, unusual, striking,
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  Speaker 2: ecstatic experiences, to write after the text that I'm going
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  Speaker 2: to read to you in just a minute. Right after
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  Speaker 2: this text in chapter twelve, verse eleven, he says, I
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  Speaker 2: have been a fool you forced me to it. So
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  Speaker 2: what is it that Paul calls foolish? And the answer
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  Speaker 2: is he thought it was foolish to boast about mystical
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  Speaker 2: experiences as though it were the true sign of an
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  Speaker 2: apostle or the key to Godliness or Christ's likeness. So
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  Speaker 2: here's what he says, starting at the beginning of two
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  Speaker 2: Corinthians twelve, I must go on boasting, though there's nothing
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  Speaker 2: to be gained by it. I will go on to
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  Speaker 2: boast about visions and revelations of the Lord. I know
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  Speaker 2: a man in Christ who fourteen years ago, and we
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  Speaker 2: were gonna know in a few minutes. This is Paul
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  Speaker 2: talking about himself in the third person. I know a
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  Speaker 2: man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up
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  Speaker 2: into the Third Heaven. Whether in the body or out
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  Speaker 2: of the body, I don't know. God knows. And I
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  Speaker 2: know that this man was caught up into paradise. Whether
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  Speaker 2: in the body or out of the body, I do
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  Speaker 2: not know. God knows. And he heard things. He heard
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  Speaker 2: things that cannot be told, which man may not utter.
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  Speaker 2: On behalf of this man I will boast, But on
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  Speaker 2: my own behalf. I will not boast except of my weaknesses.
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  Speaker 2: Though if I should boast, I would not be a fool,
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  Speaker 2: for I would be speaking the truth. But I refrain
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  Speaker 2: from it so that no one may think more of
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  Speaker 2: me than he sees in me or hears from me.
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  Speaker 2: So to keep me me from being conceited because of
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  Speaker 2: the surpassing greatness of the revelation, a thorn was given
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  Speaker 2: to me in the flesh.
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  Speaker 1: Ah.
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  Speaker 2: So now we know those mystical experiences are being caught
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  Speaker 2: up into paradise, into the third heaven, where he heard
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  Speaker 2: things that cannot be uttered. That was Paul. We know
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  Speaker 2: it was Paul because Jesus is now giving Paul a
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  Speaker 2: thorn in the flash to keep him from being conceited
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  Speaker 2: about those amazing mystical experiences he just had. The reason
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  Speaker 2: Paul spoke of those experiences in the third person, as
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  Speaker 2: though they belonged to somebody else, is to communicate to
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  Speaker 2: the Corinthians and to the super Apostles that those experiences
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  Speaker 2: were not what was central to his ministry. They don't
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  Speaker 2: make one holy, they don't give one God's authority. And
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  Speaker 2: then in the next four verses we read one of
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  Speaker 2: the most amazing experiences of the apostle in the New Testament.
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  Speaker 2: Jesus gave Paul a painful thorn precisely to keep him
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  Speaker 2: from making much of mystical experience. It was as though
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  Speaker 2: the Lord gave that experience to Paul as a special gift.
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  Speaker 2: And then he hit the mute button and directed his
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  Speaker 2: attention and our attention elsewhere, which is exactly what we
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  Speaker 2: should do. Here's how Paul gets his attention directed elsewhere
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  Speaker 2: verse eight. Three times I pleaded with the Lord about
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  Speaker 2: this thorn in the flesh, that it should leave me.
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  Speaker 2: But he said to me, my grace is sufficient for you.
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  Speaker 2: My power is made perfect in weakness, to which Paul
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  Speaker 2: amazingly responds like this. Therefore I will boast all the
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  Speaker 2: more gladly, and that's an important word, all the more
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  Speaker 2: gladly of my weakness, so that the power of Christ
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  Speaker 2: may rest upon me. In other words, the real power
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  Speaker 2: of the Christian life, the peculiarly Christ given power, Christian power.
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  Speaker 2: The real power of an apostle, lies not in mystical experiences,
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  Speaker 2: but in trusting Christ to show His power in and
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  Speaker 2: through our weaknesses gladly. This is why the super apostles
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  Speaker 2: mocked Paul, because he taught that Christians experience the power
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  Speaker 2: of Christ when they are enabled to be content and
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  Speaker 2: even glad in their sufferings, in their weakness. They were
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  Speaker 2: so bent out of shape. They did not want to
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  Speaker 2: be weak. They didn't care whether Christ got all the credit.
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  Speaker 2: They wanted to look strong, and being caught up into
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  Speaker 2: heaven was a great way to boast over other people.
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  Speaker 2: And Paul said, I'm not going to do it. Mute
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  Speaker 2: button on that thorn, to keep that in his place.
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  Speaker 2: So I think the upshot of all this is that
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  Speaker 2: we should not reject extraordinary experiences if they come. Paul
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  Speaker 2: didn't reject it, he received it as a gift, but
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  Speaker 2: that we should seek them, not don't go after them.
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  Speaker 2: You're going to get a thorn if you go after them,
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  Speaker 2: if you try to boast in them. That we should
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  Speaker 2: not seek them as an ordinary way of experiencing the
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  Speaker 2: power of Christ. Rather, we should seek to know Christ
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  Speaker 2: so deeply that He himself becomes the satisfaction of our
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  Speaker 2: souls and the gladness of our hearts and the contentment
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  Speaker 2: of our minds as we walk the Christlike path of
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  Speaker 2: sacrificial love.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, don't reject the experiences, and don't lust for them
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  Speaker 1: either the real power of the Christian life the peculiarly
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  Speaker 1: Christ given power Christian power. The real power of an
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  Speaker 1: apostle lies not in mystical experiences, but in trusting Christ
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  Speaker 1: to show His power in and through our weaknesses. Gladly
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  Speaker 1: beautifully put. Pastor John, thank you for that, and thanks
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  Speaker 1: for joining us today. If you have a question to
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  Speaker 1: ask Pastor John, find a link to email us and
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  Speaker 1: find our complete episode archive at the same place. Askpastor
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  Speaker 1: John dot com. Well, why doesn't God know what's in
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  Speaker 1: our hearts? There's ample evidence in the Old Testament that
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  Speaker 1: God has to test people in order to see what's
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  Speaker 1: inside of them, So why can't He just know what's
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  Speaker 1: inside of them? To begin with, it's a great by
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  Speaker 1: a question and it's up next time. I'm Tony Ranky,
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  Speaker 1: will see you on Thursday.